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True, and Israelis would miss the thrill of leaving for work in the morning and wondering if they'd make it there and back or seeing their kids grow up extra fast and become a little haunted as they do their active service.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
But is the problem for the Israeli's not partly self made?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
The Israeli mindset is totally different to quite possibly anyone else on the planet though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Whether you agree with the idea of a Jewish state or not, you've got a group of people who have worked bloody hard through the centuries to achieve this goal and they're not going to let go of it for any reason, least of all through their own weakness.
People like you and I can see that the Israelis are never going to lose to the Arabs in any war, that they can afford to give back the Occupied Territories in return for peace (although I still don't think that will be enough for some Palestinians) but then we're not the ones who would stand to suffer if the Israelis mess up and end up losing. And if the Israelis lose they know they will lose everything, not just wait like most other states can to pick themselves up off the floor and start again. There will be no second chance for Israel and that isn't something you can say of Germany or Japan or any other country you can name.
I don't think the Israelis are persecuting the Palestinians for the fun of it like the Jews themselves were in Europe, they are doing so for several reasons. Firstly they've fooled themselves into thinking that their presence in the Occupied Territories is only going to be temporary since '67 and a lot of their policies regarding infrastructure provision etc are certainly based along those lines. Secondly they've started to settle the land with Israeli citizens which obviously goes against their occupation only being temporary. Thirdly in order to defend the settlers the Israeli army has to take pretty extreme measures, usually against the Palestinians but recently against settlers too.
In short I don't think the Israelis have been able to admit that they are in fact administering an empire however small it may be. As such they've totally failed to learn from other empires, the Palestinians have risen up against them due to the terrible conditions they live in and due to inexperience the Israelis don't know how to react except through violence. The problem with that is that violence begets violence.
As for the Nazis, they didn't single out the Jews at all. Anyone classified as being undesirable was targetted including gays, communists/socialists, intellectuals, Romany Gypsies etc etc. There is a long history of anti-semetism in Europe, in fact the Nazis had to ask the French to tone it down a bit when they ordered that all French Jews be handed over to be liquidated. The French were too brutal you see, even for Nazi tastes. The Hungarians and Poles were no different. It doesn't surprise me that Jews who managed to escape from those countries find it uncomfortable visiting them even now, let alone settling back there Eki-style.
Is the same not true of the Palestinians?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
But at the end of the day if the fighting stops right now who has the ability to live happily? Not the Palestinians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
If you'd ask me back after WW2 if I agreed (I wasn't born then of course!!!!) I would say they don't deserve their own state because that land belonged to someone else. But now I think they deserve their state because they're there and clearly aren't going to move.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
Like you say violence begets violence and that's really what it boils down to.
I think Israel needs to accept that if they give most Palestinians what they want then the bloodshed will eventually end. Reconciliation is possible. You don't see the French constantly bitching about how Germany attacked them in two world wars and the same with Japan and the US. At the end of the day when you've got a roof over your head, a job to go to, food in your belly and no apaches hovering overhead you'd be pretty bloody happy and the idea of strapping plastic explosives to your body and killing some Israeli's will seem a pretty dumb thing to do. There will always be a few rotten apples but their own kind will take care of them IF they're happy. Most people just want food, shelter and happiness!
True, but the Palestinians have also rejected many good deals. The peace deal Rani quoted at the start of this thread isn't a fantasy of his, it was on the table in front of Yasser Arafat with people like Clinton imploring him to sign it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
If you read it through its unbelievable generous to the Palestinians given the real life politics of the region. They'll probably never be offered anything like it again.
But instead of accepting it, Yasser Arafat decided to push it away, demanding even more, and that wasn't the only time the Palestinians have screwed up negotiations either.
And also, if we have peace now the Palestinians have more to gain economically simply because they're starting from a lower level. The occasional bomb notwithstanding, the Israelis don't have as much to gain from peace as they do.
Absolutely 110% true. The problem is getting from here to there!Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
No compelling reason to emigrate either, regardless of religion, which was the point. Only a fool or someone with a death wish would emigrate from peaceful Finland into a war-torn area like the Middle East IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan H
I can understand if East-European Jews emigrate to Israel, but many well-off North American and West-European Jews have moved to Israel as well, which I don't understand.
Because people have things other than simple material wellbeing that are important to them? Like the concept of a homeland perhaps?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
As a species we'd be pretty low if all we considered were simple economic factors in choosing how to live our lives. In fact life would be quite miserable.
I may not agree with some of the things the Israelis are doing but I can certainly empathise with their desire for a homeland. They aren't living in a warzone because thats their idea of fun Eki. They are living there because they feel that Israel is a place and more importantly an ideal worth living and fighting for and a degree of danger is a price worth paying.
There are plenty of Jews for whom Israel isn't worth the danger, they're the Jews still living around the world.
As a point of interest, have you ever spoken to a Jew about these issues?