Rise of the Phoenix?

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Originally Posted by pits4me

Until you put the demise of Atlantics AND Surfers under your beloved magnifying glass IC.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Again, you have CCWS management to blame for that, not TG.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

#2. ICS is racing at Surfer's this weekend. Any continuation of or demise of that is the sole responsibility of ICS. CCWS has nothing to do with that.

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

Well, yes and no. You're lucky the IRL agreed to take it on this year to get the "merger" done. If it doesn't fit in the IRL's schedule from here on out it can hardly be called the IRL's fault. They agree to run a race there this year, and to negotiate future contracts. That's it.

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I never said it was the IRL's fault. I was correcting your saying that it was CCWS fault. If it doen't fit in the schedule any more that it that is the fault of the ICS and the Surfer's Paradise principles. That has, zero, zilch, nada, to do with the CCWS management.

Gary

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

Wow you guys are infuriating. So the same crowd that wants to maximize the number of races they get to see in the US and cares little for keeping Surfers has no problem telling others to go take a hike all over the globe. hypocrytes

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Uh. WE'RE the hypocrites? You just kinda proved that you CCers are. You want the IRL to race halfway around the world and focus on international markets yet you can't support a series that isn't American based?

You're the ones that love European style racing, so doesn't it seem logical to "take a hike"? Us AOWR fans already have a series with a formula that has proven to be the preferred style of Americans.

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Another series that wants to try to compete with the IRL is bad. Let's be clear about that. The past twelve years proved, definitively that two series cannot survive in a single market space.
Gary

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maybe

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Originally Posted by -Helix-

Uh. WE'RE the hypocrites? You just kinda proved that you CCers are. You want the IRL to race halfway around the world and focus on international markets yet you can't support a series that isn't American based?

You're the ones that love European style racing, so doesn't it seem logical to "take a hike"? Us AOWR fans already have a series with a formula that has proven to be the preferred style of Americans.

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Your insistence that certain types of Indycentric racing are "American" and other types are "European" and should be banished is part of the basis of the whole damn 12 year war. By excising all elements of the European style from the IRL (such as surfers), you make it MORE LIKELY that another series will be invented to fill that gap, not less. Futhermore you seemed to have missed the fact that NASCAR exists. THAT is the essence of the fundamentally American style racing to which you prefer - NOT INDYCAR. I question the sanity of the idea of duplicating that but just with a different style of car.

It seems to me the split continues until this point is resolved, even among everyone who is in ICS fan. You may be arguing with me, but clearly there is vast difference of opinion even between Garyshell and Helix there. Even ICS seems undecided on the point since at times they concede to morphing into CART II and other times they retreat to thier midwest oval centric ideas like in this case viewing Surfers as expendable and not part of the core of what ICS is. Just becase there is 1 series does not mean these problems are solved. The insistence they should be swept under the rug and mean nothing is truely maddening. Imagine the split never existed and all those years are erased. I would still be arguing the exact same thing, that ICS should be distancing itself from the NASCAR style and should better fill that "european" style in north America or else you risk those european series crossing the sea and stealing your market share anyway when you leave an obvious gap like that.

Those European series have their own schedules where they are. Even Formula One couldn't sustain itself here, drawing less than half the crowd of the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 at the same facility.

Your explanation of what the IRL seems to be doing seems critical of it, as if you don't like it, but accurate and I don't think the IRL has ever said any differently: It's an ovalcentric series which has added some road and street courses centered around the Indianapolis 500 and run primarily in North America. When all those European series start running ovals, let us know.

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Originally Posted by CCWS77

maybe


Your insistence that certain types of Indycentric racing are "American" and other types are "European" and should be banished is part of the basis of the whole damn 12 year war. By excising all elements of the European style from the IRL (such as surfers), you make it MORE LIKELY that another series will be invented to fill that gap, not less. Futhermore you seemed to have missed the fact that NASCAR exists. THAT is the essence of the fundamentally American style racing to which you prefer - NOT INDYCAR. I question the sanity of the idea of duplicating that but just with a different style of car.

It seems to me the split continues until this point is resolved, even among everyone who is in ICS fan. You may be arguing with me, but clearly there is vast difference of opinion even between Garyshell and Helix there. Even ICS seems undecided on the point since at times they concede to morphing into CART II and other times they retreat to thier midwest oval centric ideas like in this case viewing Surfers as expendable and not part of the core of what ICS is. Just becase there is 1 series does not mean these problems are solved. The insistence they should be swept under the rug and mean nothing is truely maddening. Imagine the split never existed and all those years are erased. I would still be arguing the exact same thing, that ICS should be distancing itself from the NASCAR style and should better fill that "european" style in north America or else you risk those european series crossing the sea and stealing your market share anyway when you leave an obvious gap like that.

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Maybe? You must be kidding... maybe??? So you think the solution to the problems, and yes there are problems, is to start another series? Oh, yes that is going to fix things, just like it did when the idiot grandson had the supreme vision and started a new series back in 1996.

Gary

Nobody would be talking about starting another series if the IRL was putting out a quality product.

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war. I'm telling you. 10 years from now some will still be clinging to hope that Gerry Forsythe will dust off the DP1's & start a new street racing series.

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Originally Posted by indycool

Even Formula One couldn't sustain itself here, drawing less than half the crowd of the Indianapolis 500 and Brickyard 400 at the same facility.

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Because fans on both coasts of the US would rather have visited Montreal than Indianapolis to see a North American F1 race, and they did.

Let F1 run Long Beach in 2010 and then compare their attendence numbers with the ICS 2009. (Oh wait, then you would spin that as evidence that the ICS shouldn't be on street courses. LOL)

And if you are going to use Indianaplois as your gauge for the popularity of American style racing, then NASCAR draws a larger crowd than the Indy 500. So that must prove that the ICS should running fenders and carburators!

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Originally Posted by downtowndeco

You still see this down in the south once in a while. People who still aren't over the south losing the civil war. I'm telling you. 10 years from now some will still be clinging to hope that Gerry Forsythe will dust off the DP1's & start a new street racing series.

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And don't pretend that your missives here aren't the equivalent of the Yankees gloating over the fact that they forced the Confederates to surrender.

Gary

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Originally Posted by Rex Monaco

And if you are going to use Indianaplois as your gauge for the popularity of American style racing, then NASCAR draws a larger crowd than the Indy 500. So that must prove that the ICS should running fenders and carburators!

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Are you SURE about that? As I recall, the indfield is not open for the NASCAR crowd, and if so I really doubt if they draw higher numbers.

Gary