Screw Ferrari

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

No, I made it out as less than 10 blunders from Ferrari. It is not Ferraris problem if their supplier messes up, although of course, this will affect them.

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:laugh: Excellent joke! :rotflmao:
Really? Who the heck chose the suppliers? Shock horror, the Ferrari management did it! :rolleyes:

PS: You have omitted a few of them blunders in your previous list, as mentioned by Jens and myself. So we are more like around 15 blunders for this season and it isn't yet over.

PPS: I'm a Ferrari fan, one that defends them when needed, but I reserve the right to criticize them when the management is performing like this season.

I will never praise mediocrity!

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Well, it obviously wasn't so obvious, as I had to ask you. I didn't realise you were refering to minor incidents as appears to be the case, in which case, your claim that Ferrari only made 10 similar errors in 5 years is totally wrong. They had more than 10 mechanical failures striaght off, if we're classifying strategy errors, pit errors etc, there is absolutely no chance they had 10 in 5 seasons as you have claimed.

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Give us a list of their strategic and reliability blunders from 2000 to 2004!
Maybe there are more than 10 maybe not, but at least we will see how little errors there were compared to this season.

And if you chose not to do it I'll understand it, and won't start attacking you. :p :

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Well, it obviously wasn't so obvious, as I had to ask you. I didn't realise you were refering to minor incidents as appears to be the case, in which case, your claim that Ferrari only made 10 similar errors in 5 years is totally wrong. They had more than 10 mechanical failures striaght off, if we're classifying strategy errors, pit errors etc, there is absolutely no chance they had 10 in 5 seasons as you have claimed.

And I don't understand about me not thanking Garry, I said "Thank you for naming these". I not sure what else I can do if thats not saying thank you.

I don't particularly recall me attacking Massa. I've criticised him when I believe him to be in the wrong, in same way I've criticised Lewis (Canada this year, his arrogance etc).

You can support a driver and be objective about it. My favourite driver is Alonso, but I'll openly admit that his actions last year with blackmailing Ron Dennis, I disapproved of it. I'm not going to agree with it just because I support him.

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Pole, you're wasting your time will just end up with high blood pressure as ioan chooses not to accept alternative views.

Threads started with titles like "Screw Ferrari" are destined to lack objectivity.

It is obvious that Ferrari are not having the best year to date but teams always have issues. It's part of racing.

Hell, look at the mistakes and points lost by McLaren this year for example. I bet they add up to more than Ferrari's but it's not worth trying to discuss it reasonably.

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Originally Posted by ioan

:laugh: Excellent joke! :rotflmao:
Really? Who the heck chose the suppliers? Shock horror, the Ferrari management did it! :rolleyes:

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If I am not mistaken, then every team in F1 uses that supplier company. Even the best suppliers can have problems, it is not unheard of in world.

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PS: You have omitted a few of them blunders in your previous list, as mentioned by Jens and myself. So we are more like around 15 blunders for this season and it isn't yet over.

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I have the number of blunders at around 8-9. Not 15.

I repeat, there were more blunders in 2005 and in 2006. Hell, even in 2002 and 2004 there were several blunders, it is impossible to have a perfect year in F1.

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PPS: I'm a Ferrari fan, one that defends them when needed, but I reserve the right to criticize them when the management is performing like this season.

I will never praise mediocrity!

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The management is doing fine. Ferrari has the fastest car.
If Ferrari is medicore, what do you call other teams? ?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Give us a list of their strategic and reliability blunders from 2000 to 2004!
Maybe there are more than 10 maybe not, but at least we will see how little errors there were compared to this season.

And if you chose not to do it I'll understand it, and won't start attacking you. :p :

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Mate my memory isn't as good as that I'm afraid. But I'd bet decent money they had more than 10 errors during that period.

Your refering to strategic plans going wrong etc, I'm sorry, but its a sure thing that things did not go to perfect plan in that time.

We're getting slightly too involved into specific examples.

All I'm trying to do is make you aware of the situation. Ferrari didn't go to perfect plan back then, and isn't these days either. Because it rarely does for most teams.

If we're going to look at the type of errors your mentioning for this season. Fact is, your wrong, they did more than 10 errors in 5 seasons. If you wish to believe that, thats fair enough, but you'll be arguing a fact, its not even subjective.

Therefore, your basing your opinion on the current Ferrari management on a false belief. Surely anyone would want to base their opinions on the truth.

Me personally, I like the new style Ferrari team, it has a much more sporting approach, which is closer to my principles. Whilst its undeniable they haven't got the advantage as before, I think thats primarily to do with the regulations not moving at all for quite a long period, so common sense would suggest the other teams are going to catch up, the top teams have basically maximised the speed of the cars within the current regulations. Fact that Force India, on a budget 1/10th of Ferraris, can create a car from scratch at only 2s a lap slower highlights this.

So its only natural Ferrari's dominance wouldn't continue to that extent forever. Considering the fundamental changes with the team, I think they have managed amazingly well. We just have to look at 2005 where they got it all wrong, with the dream team in place, and their performances last year and this year are strong in comparison.

Should be noted Ferrari didn't win a tittle in 2005-06, only last year, with the new team in place. I think that says plenty.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Mate my memory isn't as good as that I'm afraid. But I'd bet decent money they had more than 10 errors during that period.

Your refering to strategic plans going wrong etc, I'm sorry, but its a sure thing that things did not go to perfect plan in that time.

We're getting slightly too involved into specific examples.

All I'm trying to do is make you aware of the situation. Ferrari didn't go to perfect plan back then, and isn't these days either. Because it rarely does for most teams.

If we're going to look at the type of errors your mentioning for this season. Fact is, your wrong, they did more than 10 errors in 5 seasons. If you wish to believe that, thats fair enough, but you'll be arguing a fact, its not even subjective.

Therefore, your basing your opinion on the current Ferrari management on a false belief. Surely anyone would want to base their opinions on the truth.

Me personally, I like the new style Ferrari team, it has a much more sporting approach, which is closer to my principles. Whilst its undeniable they haven't got the advantage as before, I think thats primarily to do with the regulations not moving at all for quite a long period, so common sense would suggest the other teams are going to catch up, the top teams have basically maximised the speed of the cars within the current regulations. Fact that Force India, on a budget 1/10th of Ferraris, can create a car from scratch at only 2s a lap slower highlights this.

So its only natural Ferrari's dominance wouldn't continue to that extent forever. Considering the fundamental changes with the team, I think they have managed amazingly well. We just have to look at 2005 where they got it all wrong, with the dream team in place, and their performances last year and this year are strong in comparison.

Should be noted Ferrari didn't win a tittle in 2005-06, only last year, with the new team in place. I think that says plenty.

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I told you you I won't hold you responsible for not doing it, unlike you did.

However if you don't want to do it, than don't tell me I'm wrong, cause now I'll ask you to prove it. So behave yourself and start counting the blunders Ferrari did between 2000 and 2004 or admit that you are picking on me! :mad:

As for bringing up 2005 and 2006 I don't give 2 pennies on that, I asked you about 2000 to 2004 (exactly 5 seasons, as I mentioned before). :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ioan

I told you you I won't hold you responsible for not doing it, unlike you did.

However if you don't want to do it, than don't tell me I'm wrong, cause now I'll ask you to prove it. So behave yourself and start counting the blunders Ferrari did between 2000 and 2004 or admit that you are picking on me! :mad:

As for bringing up 2005 and 2006 I don't give 2 pennies on that, I asked you about 2000 to 2004 (exactly 5 seasons, as I mentioned before). :rolleyes:

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No Ioan, I'm afraid I'm not going to go through every single race been 2000 and 2004 and list you a number of errors.

If you genuinely believe that Ferrari only made 10 strategic, mechanical, pit stop, any kind of error between 2000 - 2004. I'm not going to try prove you wrong, because I know its not true, and I know you are factually wrong. If you wish to believe that thats fair enough. Base your opinions on invalid facts :)

As for not caring about 2005-06, you should take them into consideration. As your claiming the new management is bringing the team down, but your deciding not to give two pennies about the last years of the dream team, where they failed to win anything.

Its pretty worrying to an extent how some people are basing their opinions on selectively selecting the facts to reinforce them.

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Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

No Ioan, I'm afraid I'm not going to go through every single race been 2000 and 2004 and list you a number of errors.

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The why pick on me when I didn't do the same when you asked me?
Also you can't claim that I'm wrong either without proving squat.
So put up or shut up. :rolleyes:

Ferrari's strategical mistakes in 2000-2004?
I'm trying to recall them now...

2000? Well, I remember Schumacher's slow puncture in Spain, but this isn't a strategical blunder obviously...
2001? Umm... Barrichello losing a pit-duel against Coulthard in Austria is the worst strategical loss I can remember. :D
2002? Barrichello had lots of car failures, but any costly strategical miscalculations?

Three-stop strategy for MS in Oz'03 wasn't the right decision plus he came in to change inters too late plus inters itself for the start of the race weren't the best choice.
Brazil '03 - Barrichello ran out of fuel.
Italy '04 - inters for Barrichello was a doubtful decision and he changed them to grooved ones at least a lap too late.

There may have been more, because brain isn't a computer.

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Originally Posted by ioan

PPS: I'm a Ferrari fan, one that defends them when needed, but I reserve the right to criticize them when the management is performing like this season.

I will never praise mediocrity!

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Mediocrity ? :s Your Team is 1 point behind in Constructors Title Champ, and 7 points behind in the Driver Title Champ with 3 races left and plenty of chances to win both Titles and you call that mediocrity ? :s

You mind to tell me how long you have been a Ferrari fan, and how you rate the management of Ferrari in those 21 long years without a single win ?

Sorry ioan but a truly tifoso acts a bit different than they way you do ;)

btw can you post for me these 10 mistakes made by the menagement so far this year....please :)