petty bickering about a racing incident that happened 10 years ago thread

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11th August 2008, 18:03
Garry Walker

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

1) And your turn, you explain why they would have invested time and money into a system, implemented it and got it fully functional only to not use it?.

They had it for 1993.
But I have a better one for you - David Coulthard admitted that Williams used TC during testing.

Quote:

2) Well, maybe you stand corrected, Knock On points out TC was indeed found on the car. Or software which could be used for TC..

There is a difference in there being software that could be used for TC or TC actually being found to be useable. The latter never happened, so you are once again, so to say, talking from your arse.

Quote:

4) I honestly can't take what you say seriously. .

Welcome to my world.

Quote:

I'd respect your opinion more if you were open about it with a "yes they used it, but it wasn't proved, they exploited the loophole and pushing the boundaries is all part of F1".

:rotflmao: Hilarious!!!
So I have to admit to something that did not happen to earn respect from someone like you? Well that makes all the difference :rotflmao:
Funny guy.

Quote:

But for you to admit they had the system, and yet not use it. Well, I may be wrong and don't expect you to accept it, but it makes you come across totally biased..

They did not have TC, nor have I ever admitted they had TC in their system.

How would you tackle the subject of noise. To be specific, TC is clearly audible and I am also sure it shows from telemetry.
FIA had all the data they needed, and I`m sure also the telemetry of the cars. But they saw nothing to indicate it had been used. Hell, every person watching the TV could have heard the TC working, but no, no one heard anything.
Also, if they had TC, surely by now someone involved would have said something. But no, nothing has been said about it.

I ask you again, PROVE that Benetton used TC.
Saying "everyone knows they used it", won`t cut it as I don`t know that and apparently Tamburello doesn`t either. So give us the proof needed and show us the light.
12th August 2008, 00:06
Rollo

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Let's recall. MS made his stop & go penalty just a lap (?) after the three-lap penalty implementation limit. During those 3 laps Benetton team members were having a heated debate with marshals (in hope of escaping penalty?) and they continued doing it after MS had served the penalty (in hope of keeping second place even if MS served the penalty a bit too late?).

Just a lap?
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr556.html

Quote:

On lap 27 - 14 laps after the penalty was given - Schumacher finally stopped but only after Race Director Roland Bruynseraede had been to the Benetton pit. The team later received a severe reprimand and a fine of $25,000.

Maybe he "didn't see" the flag but failing to come in after 14 laps shows blatant disregard to the authority of the FIA. Failing to observe a black flag is one thing, but only coming in after the race director physically comes down and forces you to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jens

Therefore I think Michael was asked by the team to stay out and keep racing with the hope of escaping penalty (if you go into the garage, there won't be any hope to keep result with the help of protest). So I think it was harsh to punish MS for ignoring black flag with a 2-race-ban.

Harsh? Tish.

Is civil disobediance worth ignoring?
12th August 2008, 08:25
PolePosition_1

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

No it wasn't, so my original answer still stands.

Canadian Grand Prix was in June. Thats when they start their developments of next years cars by todays standards!

They wouldn't have been that far into development in June 1993 for the 1994 car.

To get the system fully implemented and functioning for 1994, they'd have had to have continued working on the system much past June 1993.

So your original answer doesn't stand.
12th August 2008, 08:48
PolePosition_1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

They had it for 1993.
But I have a better one for you - David Coulthard admitted that Williams used TC during testing.

There is a difference in there being software that could be used for TC or TC actually being found to be useable. The latter never happened, so you are once again, so to say, talking from your arse.

Welcome to my world.

:rotflmao: Hilarious!!!
So I have to admit to something that did not happen to earn respect from someone like you? Well that makes all the difference :rotflmao:
Funny guy.

They did not have TC, nor have I ever admitted they had TC in their system.

How would you tackle the subject of noise. To be specific, TC is clearly audible and I am also sure it shows from telemetry.
FIA had all the data they needed, and I`m sure also the telemetry of the cars. But they saw nothing to indicate it had been used. Hell, every person watching the TV could have heard the TC working, but no, no one heard anything.
Also, if they had TC, surely by now someone involved would have said something. But no, nothing has been said about it.

I ask you again, PROVE that Benetton used TC.
Saying "everyone knows they used it", won`t cut it as I don`t know that and apparently Tamburello doesn`t either. So give us the proof needed and show us the light.

DC admitted Williams used it in testing. Yes thats bad as well, its wrong. I don't particularly see why your pointing that fact out?

Also, V10 engines were allowed in 2005, but banned for 2006, but if a team went into 2006 with a V10 saying, look we used it in 2005 - of course thats not acceptable. You follow the rules!

And well comments such as "talking out your arse" I find slightly saddening. I disagree with your opinion, and am suprised by some of your arguments, but I have not once said anything like that. Presumably you've resorted to this because of your fustration of me being morally and sportingly correct. While your defending a team which is in the wrong.

Can I ask if you were a Schumacher fan ?

No, because I am honestly slightly suprised to see you apparently geniuenly believe Bennetton had an illegal system on their car and yet did not use it. For me, your either lying to not lose the moral high ground, or your incredibly niave.

Bennetton made the FIA wait before handing over majority of the data, who knows what happened with the data and how it was changed? If Bennetton were innocent, why make the FIA wait for the data and evidence to be handed over?

I can't prove it, but they've admitted to Launch Control - and performance advantage to that was pretty good if you look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYca6E6c3IM

Taking into account that launch control and traction control are basically run from the same system, its a pretty sure bet they were.

Fair enough, you can't penalise them for it being a safe bet. But launch control was there in the open, and Bennetton escaped via a loophole, after the FIA requested evidence after the San Marino GP, and only got given a demonstation given by late July, thats 4 months after the original request!!
12th August 2008, 09:03
jens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollo

Just a lap?
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr556.html

Oh, my bad. I must have misinterpreted a video I once saw. :p :
12th August 2008, 09:56
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

The ban on Driver aids were not announced in January 1993.

"If the action on-track was disappointing, off-track the political recriminations were reaching fever pitch. FIA President Max Mosley made his objections to traction control and active suspension explicitly clear when, at the Canadian Grand Prix, he declared the team’s interpretation of the rules to be illegal and promised to ban the technology"

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/f1-inform...enna-the-hero/

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamburello

No it wasn't, so my original answer still stands.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/2681835.stm

Sorry Tamb but you are wrong.

This article from January quotes Max as saying it is banned from the British GP.
12th August 2008, 10:24
PolePosition_1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/2681835.stm

Sorry Tamb but you are wrong.

This article from January quotes Max as saying it is banned from the British GP.

Knock On - hate to say this but that articule is from 2003.
12th August 2008, 10:35
Knock-on

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

Knock On - hate to say this but that articule is from 2003.

:laugh:

I'm only a decade out :laugh:

Just ignore me. I've a cold :D
12th August 2008, 11:17
PolePosition_1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knock-on

:laugh:

I'm only a decade out :laugh:

Just ignore me. I've a cold :D

lol, I wish you were right.

But I've done my research, move was introduced in 1993 June.

So our point still stands :)
12th August 2008, 11:37
Garry Walker

Quote:

Originally Posted by PolePosition_1

DC admitted Williams used it in testing. Yes thats bad as well, its wrong. I don't particularly see why your pointing that fact out?

Because unlike Benetton, who were never found to have TC on their system, Williams admitted that they had it. So what stopped them from using it in races? Why are you not hunting them with the same rigour?

Quote:

Also, V10 engines were allowed in 2005, but banned for 2006, but if a team went into 2006 with a V10 saying, look we used it in 2005 - of course thats not acceptable. You follow the rules!

These are not comparable at all and I`m pretty sure you know it.

Quote:

And well comments such as "talking out your arse" I find slightly saddening. I disagree with your opinion, and am suprised by some of your arguments, but I have not once said anything like that. Presumably you've resorted to this because of your fustration of me being morally and sportingly correct. While your defending a team which is in the wrong.

:rotflmao:
You have to still to show that Benetton had TC, I am still waiting buddy.

Quote:

Can I ask if you were a Schumacher fan ?

Of course you can.
Can I ask if you were a Hill fan?

Quote:

No, because I am honestly slightly suprised to see you apparently geniuenly believe Bennetton had an illegal system on their car and yet did not use it. For me, your either lying to not lose the moral high ground, or your incredibly niave.

It is funny how you earlier complained about some of my comments and now you call me niave (sic).
Look, Benetton had LC. Never proved they used it, but it is not even in the topic really. Topic is TC. Now show me how they had TC. That`s all I am asking, you have not done that.

Quote:

Bennetton made the FIA wait before handing over majority of the data, who knows what happened with the data and how it was changed? If Bennetton were innocent, why make the FIA wait for the data and evidence to be handed over?

So why did they not delete the LC out of their system?

Quote:

I can't prove it, but they've admitted to Launch Control - and performance advantage to that was pretty good if you look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYca6E6c3IM

A lucky start, but look at how obviously they used LC here. Just look at the "magnificent" start Schumacher had there.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=G61AWO5mkYc

I remember when Häkkinen twice came from 3rd position in 2000 to lead in the first corner. LC maybe?

But at least you finally admitted that you cannot prove they used LC.

Quote:

Taking into account that launch control and traction control are basically run from the same system, its a pretty sure bet they were.

None was found despite extensive searching. You have nothing besides "you being sure." That counts for nothing unfortunately for you. Give me just some proof as to them having it, for example audio proof would be good.

Answer these questions I asked already earlier.
Why was TC not detected in Benetton Telemetry?
Was was is that no one heard TC, when we have seen in recent years that TC makes an obvious noise?
Why is it that in 14 years no one from the team has said anything, despite surley quite a few people having to know about it, if they really had had TC?

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