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McLaren boss Ron Dennis has revealed he and driver Fernando Alonso have not spoken since the Hungarian Grand Prix.
"We've not spoken. The relationship between Fernando and I is extremely cold - that is an understatement."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/moto...ne/7003042.stm
Anyone else reckon Ron will sabotage FA's WDC chances in revenge?
Not until the last race when both are neck and neck, tv revenue and ratings are at their highest.....and then some lug nut will come loose....but only if really necessary...... much like JV's final race in japan his rookie year when he still had a shot at a rookie WDC.......
for more details please see A Knight's Tale.....
You reap what you sow in life and Alonso will get his due. I doubt that would include a WDC.
How can Ron Dennis let Alonso do this and just sit there and take it? He seems to be dealing with a totally mutinous employee. Most employees who were asked by their employer to attend a hearing would be fired if they didn't attend. I am now actually starting to believe Alonso tried to "blackmail" RD. Why is RD leaving this guy in the car? If he wins the WDC it is going to be absolutely bizzare.
he has no choice, Mad Max threatened RD and McClaren if they took action against Alonso. I hope that they find some valid reason, minor or not to get rid of him this year.
The team principle at STR chokes his driver and MM does nothing, Last Year, Klien gets dumped because he refuses to sign a champ car deal for 2007 while in the middle of driving in the 2006 season and he does nothing,
now a driver actually sabotages his own team, threatens blackmail, tries to take his teamate out on the track, actually get's sanctioned by the FIA for unsporting behaviour ( towards non other than his own teammate) refuses to talk to any principles in the team, tries to keep his own data to himself, regularly bashes the team in the press, refuses to attend the FIA meeting in Paris, of which he is central to, he who supplied the information to MM, and the FIA is worried about THAT driver being unfairly treated! WTF!
I think the $21 million he has received so far is compoensation enough to kick him out.
I guarantee you that if he returns to renault, Neither Kovaleinen or Piquet Jr would be happy with his presence. It will only be a matter of time before that situation blows up. I expect Kovaleinen and Piquet JR to leave or lodge a complaint to the FIA if FA's insists on #1 treatment next year over there, when KH starts beating him.
"Mad Max threatened RD and McClaren if they took action against Alonso"
What was the threat? If it were me, i wouldn't care what the consequences were, i would toss this nut out.
Oh no, Flavio would treat him like a #1 while telling the kids on his team to keep shut...
I think McLaren would have a case for sacking Alonso, before the end of the year.
Blackmail seems a good enough excuse in any job.
People has done jail for such.
Well, as Fiero stated on another thread, Alonso has got off very lightly so far as a result of the way the FIA has meted out its punishment. I agree that his behaviour seems utterly unacceptable, and I would be very interested to hear what an employment lawyer feels about what's gone on!
I think it's impossible to draw conclusions about this. We don't really know half of what goes on. Based on being a fan of F1 for a long time, I wouldn't expect any driver to sign for McLaren and get automatic, "Flavio-style" no. 1 status.
Based on what I have seen of Alonso, I don't think he'd go there unless he thought he'd be the no. 1, and he doesn't seem like someone who makes decisions lightly or fancifully. So why does he feel so hard-done by? I reckon there's more than simple ego that Lewis has been so astoundingly quick, but I don't know.
I don't believe Ron Dennis' claims about treating his drivers equally, I never did, neither with Coulthard, Hakkinen, Senna, Andretti, Brundle, Prost or even with Lauda and Watson. I've always found this "English gentleman fairplay" to be unconvincing, perhaps partly because I'm Irish (with apologies to real English gentlemen).
So now there's talk of getting on with things and getting down to the business of sport and racing, but the only one who seems to be capable of this seems to be Alonso (and I include us). At the moment that says more than anything to me...
it could be the case the McLaren are 'letting' Alonso have the slight advantagne in qualifiying, as Lewis can afford to, with his points advantage.
That way it stabilies the team, and keeps Alonsos mouth shut.
Wait till the last next couple of races and I think you will see Lewis getting the upper hand again, as he had done up until a couple of races ago.
I dislike Ron. I don't know what it is but I've always disliked him. However, I am absolutely certain that Ron is utterly honest and fair. When it is said by various members of the McLaren organisation that there is a commitment to treating both drivers fairly frankly I believe them.
Its truly tragic that Alonso hasn't been able to beat Hamilton in the points race so far but that has as much to do with Alonso's mental state as anything else hasn't it? After all had he got his head down like Michael would have done he would have had Hamilton licked. Instead he had to play political games which backfired on him in quali in Hungary and with the revelations afterwards in the FIA hearing.
No I don't believe McLaren would ever harm Alonso's world championship chances and I believe that Max knows that. The lines in the FIA declaration referring to McLaren treating Alonso fairly were an insult and Max knows it.
Can Anyone else see Alonso going back to Renault next season? It doesn't surprise me, you can tell from the start of the season all was not well at Mclaren, i can't see Lewis-Alonso partnership lasting beyond this season.
fandango
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Location: Barcelona, Catalunya, Spain 19th Sep 07, 15:11
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I think it's impossible to draw conclusions about this. We don't really know half of what goes on. Based on being a fan of F1 for a long time, I wouldn't expect any driver to sign for McLaren and get automatic, "Flavio-style" no. 1 status.
Based on what I have seen of Alonso, I don't think he'd go there unless he thought he'd be the no. 1, and he doesn't seem like someone who makes decisions lightly or fancifully. So why does he feel so hard-done by? I reckon there's more than simple ego that Lewis has been so astoundingly quick, but I don't know.
I don't believe Ron Dennis' claims about treating his drivers equally, I never did, neither with Coulthard, Hakkinen, Senna, Andretti, Brundle, Prost or even with Lauda and Watson. I've always found this "English gentleman fairplay" to be unconvincing, perhaps partly because I'm Irish (with apologies to real English gentlemen).
So now there's talk of getting on with things and getting down to the business of sport and racing, but the only one who seems to be capable of this seems to be Alonso (and I include us). At the moment that says more than anything to me...
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Very well said. Apparently Fred is able to cheese these guys off, and simply go on about his business. Occasionally venting over some slight he has received(either perceived or real)After iterating his position, he gets into his car, and as with last year, does some of the best driving of anyone in the field, just to put an exclamation point on it!
If you talk allot of **** you better be able to back it up. Fred always has backed it up on the track. This is his style! It is somewhat calculated. If RD really was concerned about Fred the gentleman, he never would have signed him. He didn't expect LH to be his equal. Never considered this eventuality, or, rather this set of circumstances. And the situation is still fluid. The British Gentleman now has to remain outwardly neutral. Fred has been feeding off this for some time now. And it probably had something to do with a "GENTLEMANS" agreement when he signed on. Fred is on his way out in a blaze of glorious self promotion. I'll be very surprised if any one can stop him
Not being a fan of SchM ever, forum members will see that anything positive that I say about Michael would efinitely not be biased.
Michael has always been a team man. I remember when he won one race and jumped into Flavio's arms. When Michael joined Ferrari, whatever anyone may say on how he behaved towards other drivers, he was always a Ferrari man. I am not aware that he ever showed disrespect towards Flavio or Jean Todt.
Having said all this, while I will admit that I was one of Fernando's greatest supporters at Minardi, I am extremely disappointed with his behaviour now. I think that he can take a leaf out of Michael's book in how to win friends and influence people.
In the not too distant future, Fernando might find that the only friend left would be his physio, because he certainly will not have nay respect from anyone else in F1. OK, there will be team principals who would want him in their team, but only because they want to do well in races. He will never be a valued mamber of any team in the future, and history will not remember him kindly.
FA signed with McLaren expecting to be treated like a 2x WDC - instead he was treated like ****. Using him to advance LH. If I were FA I would be pissed as well. RD is a certified POS but then again FA should have known before signing. FA is very quick and should be with a respectable team.
i dont get the british definition of fairness and gentlemanship
in your books its completely fair for lewis to chop on the starts, be craned of the sandtraps, overtake massa outside the track, and even to use alonsos expirence to his own benefit by simply using the same setup as him.
why do you insist both are drivers are treated equally when it is clear lewis was getting all of alonsos data.where is the fairness in that? what does alonso get in exchange? and dont tell me he gets 20 mil as that is just what mclaren agreed to pay. is it just a mere coincidence that alonso has 45 points out of the last 60 while lewis has only 33 from the last 60? or is it that alonso played a few tricks where he didnt setup his until the last second and left lewis struggling (silverstone) or that he has simply refused to benefit lewis with his setup since turkey.
these arguments are soooo ridiculouis I don't know where to begin.
1. Yes Alonso may have come into the season being the #1 driver and having a rookie as a teamate gave him little to worry about. Perhaps he didn't do his homework on LH but the guy has been a winner at every level and heralded a phenom since he got behind his go kart wheels.
2. LH drove exceptionally well at the beginnig of the year and simply did a better job than FA.
3. At Monaco, he was asked not to pass FA inspite of a very good chance that he would have takne it to FA.
4. At that point, LH made his move by more consistent driving to take the points lead.
5. He outdrove FA in Spain further adding to FA's problems, As well as establishing himslef as a contender for the WDC in 2007
6. FA starts bitching, complaining, whining, backdoor chatter about not being #1 etc. (instead of proving it on the track) Then the whole set up thing ensues. Complaing about LH taking his setup etc. which I think is completely overblown, but to humor you guys...If indeed that is true, then Hamilton does a better job with FA's setup than FA himself. So what does that say about FA.
7. Hamilton wins convincingly in Canada, USA, expanding his WDC lead.
So FA continues to bitch, I am not sure what hew can be griping about. He tried the setup complaint, goes to the press and badmouths the team, accusing them of playing favoritism,
8. Then we get Hungary, :down: FA's lowpoint
After the race he threatens RD with blackmail unless he be made #1 . The whole notion is so farcical that it defies logic. Stupidy at it's most refined.
9. RD goes to FIA to preempt FA's ghastly deeds. FA keeps his own set up.
In Turkey, LH has his number and save a cut tyre would have increased his wDC lead over him.
10. Monza, FA is already on non speaking terms, and Wins the race,
oh BTW LH finishes second
11. before Spa, LH is in Paris, FA doesn't bother to show up and does his own thing, while the RD and LH are over there desperatley trying to save the team ( and coincidentally FA's ride as well!!!) I think FA was somehow wishing that they did get banned and he could get a head start over at Renault.
12. LH is obviously not in the best frame of mind, after finding out all the backahanded attempts by his teammate to sabotage his drive. Despit all that he keeps his line at the start and Alonso tries to push him off it , entering eau rouge he moves wide around Alonso and alonso this time more blatantly tries to/nay succeeds at running him off the track.
13. with 3 races to go LH is still Leading the WDC, Alonso is second.
Lets not talk about the perfectly legal crane job in Germany ( show me where what he did was wrong. He kept the enging going and by the rules was allowed to be craned out)
FA has no friends left in F1 and much less respect in the community. As Valve said, his legacy will forever be tarnished by his actions in 2007.
What has evoloved is the true picture of an arrogant driver with no class, no loyalty and an absolute stinker of a personality. Someone who absolutely cannot cope with the pressure of a competitive teammate.
The final straw in my books were his antics on the podium in Spa. Not a hint of reverence, instead, chumming it up with the Ferrari guys and dousing the Ferrari tech Dir with Champagne. No hint of quiet defiance towards the situation. Or the team that nearly ended his season, then again he was part of that too wasn't he...
Someone said elsewhere that Kimi and FA are good friend, who said FA has no friend? FA would logically accept any treatment alongside Kimi instead of being the second to rookie.
Driving together with Kimi at the Ferari will absolutely empower the team to win both WDC and WCC and heave more opportunity to play hookey into Hamilton and McLaren.
:)
Instead he had to play political games which backfired on him in quali in Hungary
Alonso played political games in Hungary??? When he came to the pits for the second attempt, the mecanics put on his car old tyres because Ron wanted Lewis to take the pole and he couldn't punish him for disoveying team orders.
I think was LH who talked to the stewards and then came the sanction to McLaren.So I guess the only political one was Lewis.
Will we get the chance to quote other members posts again?!
As soon as mark fixes the problem, whatever it might be.
In the mean time, i suggest you copy/paste the text you want to quote, and add it your post, preferably mentioning the name of who you have quoted.
The problem won't be fixed until Monday...sorry :(
Oh, that's a shame ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by pino
How could you quote pino's :) :D
Cut and paste, then surround it with [ quote ] tags.Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardsleeping
Problem fixed Guys :p :
You mean fixed using cut and paste?Quote:
Problem fixed Guys
thanks :) :p :
Alonso won't be sabotaged as long as Ferrari has a theoretical chance to win the title. If FA retires next time around, then KR will have practically caught him in the WDC and if then something happens to LH, then the drivers' title has been played into the hands of Ferrari.
But if McLaren continues treating both of their drivers equally, then if something happens to one of the drivers, then at least the other one still has an advantage.
If McLaren has managed to secure WDC before the last round, then maybe... although it also depends, who happens to lead WDC before the last round and what's the point difference.
Depends, what can be meant by "sabotaging". They can't allow a retirement for FA, because KR is still too close in the WDC. Then what about screwing a pitstop and allowing LH to get ahead? In some way that is risky too as such action will get a lot of criticism from the public and maybe even sanctions from FIA. I also have got a feeling that if McLaren really wanted to sabotage Alonso, they would have already done it - at Monza and Spa he finished ahead and those races would have been a perfect chance... but they didn't and as a result FA has constantly closed the gap between him and LH.
I don't have as much time to do it every time.Quote:
Cut and paste, then surround it with [ quote ] tags.
Maybe I'll read the forum and do something else in the spared time. :)
A little something for everybody.
Only a sociopath could try extortion tactics
After he had already given the info to the authorities!
Which renders the extortion an empty threat?
And RD a big @$$ liar. Not news to me
So Norbert Haug essentially extorted Bernie, Max, and the council to save 2007wdc and the 2008 season.
And when things don't look like they could ever get worse. Look who may be coming back. And who do you think he will have in tow?
http://www.manipef1.com/news/2007/in...731&redirect=1
Previously, it was believed that Ron Dennis tipped off the FIA after what he believed had been an empty threat issued by reigning world champion Alonso during a heated argument in Hungary. The 26-year-old Spaniard was subsequently described as an extortionist in the world's press.
But Dennis suggested in Paris that “Bernie said that he may have seen something” and that he “would pass it to Max [Mosley]”. “I do not know what that is,” the McLaren boss added. “I do know that Bernie said it was in Spanish, but I do not know how this material came to the knowledge of the FIA,” he added, also in the presence of Ecclestone, who is F1's chief executive.
Nigel Tozzi, a lawyer acting for Ferrari, soon cleared up the mystery, jointly crediting the emergence of the emails to both Ecclestone and Alonso. “If Alonso had not shown the documents to Mr Ecclestone, and Mr Ecclestone had not alerted Mr Mosley, who then wrote to the drivers, we would not have found out about these e-mails,” he said.
Elsewhere in the transcripts, when it was clear that exclusion from the 2007 and 2008 championships was a real threat for McLaren, engine partner Mercedes-Benz's Norbert Haug spoke about the impact that it would have on formula one. In a possible reference to McLaren-Mercedes' alliance with Prodrive, he said: “We are speaking to a second team now; as you know, there are other issues in formula one now. This is not a threat; this comes from my heart.”
Former Ferrari technical director Ross Brawn was also present as an expert witness for the Maranello based team, and he confirmed that he is in talks about returning to the sport. “I know that you have left Ferrari to take a break from motor racing. Are you planning to return to motor racing?” McLaren lawyer Ian Mill asked the Briton. Brawn replied: “I am currently in discussion with Ferrari about that possibility.”
Tazio, as i said in the other thread:
How could Dennis know about Alonso's talks with Bernard Ecclestone, if neither of them told him about it?
Dennis did inform Max Mosley once he was told by alonso that there exists something, after Alonso's manager came back to Dennis and withdrew his previous announcement, Dennis informed that to Mosley as well.
It is possible that Alonso played both Dennis and Ecclestone to see what happenes
These two paragraphs seem to contradict RD'S and aparrently your Claim!
But Dennis suggested in Paris that “Bernie said that he may have seen something” and that he “would pass it to Max [Mosley]”. “I do not know what that is,” the McLaren boss added. “I do know that Bernie said it was in Spanish, but I do not know how this material came to the knowledge of the FIA,” he added, also in the presence of Ecclestone, who is F1's chief executive.
Nigel Tozzi, a lawyer acting for Ferrari, soon cleared up the mystery, jointly crediting the emergence of the emails to both Ecclestone and Alonso. “If Alonso had not shown the documents to Mr Ecclestone, and Mr Ecclestone had not alerted Mr Mosley, who then wrote to the drivers, we would not have found out about these e-mails,” he said.
Now you guys have me all confused; I'm going to bed :(
Tazio, how do they contradict Dennis?
No where in the transcript is mentioned that Alonso or Bernard told Dennis the context of their discussion so how could he know what they contained? For all he knew, it could have been Alonso's mothers paella recipe. ;)
He wen't to Max straight after Alonso told Dennis that he had something.
Technically you are right!
My gut feelings have gotten the better of me.
But they are right more often than wrong!
Something is rotten in the state of F-1
Cheers!!
“Bernie said that he may have seen something” and that he “would pass it to Max [Mosley]”. “I do not know what that is,” the McLaren boss added. “I do know that Bernie said it was in Spanish, but I do not know how this material came to the knowledge of the FIA,"
Valve Bounce said;19th Sep 07, 20:52
Not being a fan of SchM ever, forum members will see that anything positive that I say about Michael would efinitely not be biased.
Michael has always been a team man. I remember when he won one race and jumped into Flavio's arms. When Michael joined Ferrari, whatever anyone may say on how he behaved towards other drivers, he was always a Ferrari man. I am not aware that he ever showed disrespect towards Flavio or Jean Todt.
Having said all this, while I will admit that I was one of Fernando's greatest supporters at Minardi, I am extremely disappointed with his behaviour now. I think that he can take a leaf out of Michael's book in how to win friends and influence people.
In the not too distant future, Fernando might find that the only friend left would be his physio, because he certainly will not have nay respect from anyone else in F1. OK, there will be team principals who would want him in their team, but only because they want to do well in races. He will never be a valued mamber of any team in the future, and history will not remember him kindly.
Valve :bounce: Alonso wants a kick up the backside
Somewhere and at sometime, I remeber MS saying he considered mc Laren and then later again when Mecredes added their name to the mix, but there was something about RD that convinced him not to do it or it would not be a good amtch or something to that effect...perhaps others remeber????...
I am fairly sure at the moment that at McLaren there is nobody who wants to have Alonso as a champion.
I'd go as far as to say that if Lewis cannot be a champion, they would probably give the championship rather to Kimi than to Fernando.
The problem is that they cannot risk sabotaging Fernando’s car, cause that would cause Max to penalise McLaren even further, so what's left? Well, Lewis - of course - is left, I bet Ron has advised him that its perfectly ok, if you need push Fernando aside, if there is an opportunity.
That's why he didn't object them driving side by side to Eau Rouge. Ron wants Fernando out, but so that nobody can blame him for it.
Watch the races to come; I hope that the boys will be close to each other on the grid. This will be the most exciting showdown for a long time.
"Driving together with Kimi at the Ferari will absolutely empower the team to win both WDC and WCC and heave more opportunity to play hookey into Hamilton and McLaren."
Alonso will not join Ferrari, they don't want him.
Why?
They've got a good driver in Kimi who they won't want to get rid of. You could argue that Massa could go but he hasn't done a bad job has he? However Alonso's main weakness (apart from showing that he isn't a team player) is that he isn't managed by Jean Todt's son. Massa is.
How do you spell nepotism again?