http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm
Something I've been trying to find for ages :D
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http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm
Something I've been trying to find for ages :D
With hindsight, I love the suggestion in the link you included in your first post that banning Toyota would weaken 'an already frail championship'. Today, that might be a decent plea in mitigation, but then...!
As with Michael Schumacher being excised from the 1997 F1 points table but not excluded from every race, the Toyota ban created one of those weird statistical anomalies that is very hard to justify or explain, except on the grounds of the sheer complication of altering every result.
I'm amazed that more people aren't interested in this. It's one of the most famous "cheats" ever seen! :mark:
Quite funny isn't it :) To me some of the best years happened after Toyota were banned :DQuote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Very Interesting, thanks for that Daniel..
I remember feeling so bad for Delecour on the Monte that year with Auriol blitzing him, albiet only only on the uphill sections it was blindingly obvious that something shady was going on..
I still wonder how much extra power this ingenious design released.. Any airflow dynamics experts on here?
It makes the "water cooled" brakes in F1 look like childs play as far as ingenuity. This was such a clever engineering effort & it boggles the mind to think how long Toyota got away with it.
Well the article says 25% more air and maybe 50bhp but who knows really :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
I think McKlein's Rally or Rally Cars said that there was a date stamped on the parts but my copies are 10,000k's away :p
I know it's unrelated but I find it amusing that people say the FIA won't ban McLaren for any possible advantage they've gained from the documents they had. I have a belief that the FIA are all about fair play and if they find out that McLaren have cheated they'll make them the Toyota of the WRC :)
How did the F1 water cooled brakes work? :)
This is where I found the picture and link too :) Good read that!
http://forums.autosport.com/showthre...threadid=90222
As I recall, further suspicions were aroused when Kankkunen showed a turn of speed in Catalunya that he had never demonstrated on dry tarmac before, and never would do again.
I always thought it was at the superspecial in Australia when Auriol pulled away from someone else at the stage start. Probably a combination though
I was about to say the same. He was very much on charge, until he crashed out. Though Auriol didn't seem to have his rally there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
And who remembers that short interview with Kankkunen on the Portugal Rally earlier that year, when they asked him how these Toyota's where so powerfull these days, and Juha's clever response with the muscles and the little wink. Sure there was something more going on.
Well Juha always did like a bit of a joke though.
Just to remind some people, the turbo cheat (legally speaking) was't against the rules.
Obviously there was intention to overcome the restriction, but Toyota did it without braking the rules. In order words Toyota were baned based on their intention, no legal grounds.
This ban was the reason for Toyota to stop its WRC program, and they did it in stile, winning the manu title without turbo cheats. BTW, TTE were great professional team, building great cars, and great drivers. Toyota give the championship title to many rally legends. Too bad FIA had to punish them for its own mistakes and personal dislikes, something that they probably deeply regret now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Bypassing the restrictor wasnt against the rules?.. Why bother trying to hide it then?
Toyota fan?
yes very silly statement. When ford had a sort of reserve air tank that was against the spirit of the rules but was still legal because the air went through the restrictor. Toyota's solution was highly illegal.
You should've asked, I posted the article on this forum already a couple of years ago. ;) :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
my apologies :p
Damn, that's a long time ago. I think it was Williams, Brabham and Lotus that used the system. I think they filled the brakes with water to keep the minimum required weight, but the water in the brakes evaporated very quickly allowing the cars to run under the required 600 kg(?) during the race. And when the cars came in for new tires, new water was added again. That way the car was at the right weight off track but below the right weight on track.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
I not 100% sure that was what happened, but it was something like that.
And I think the teams did it as a response to FISA favorising the manufacturer teams (Ferrari, Renault, Talbot Ligier and Alfa Romeo.)
But I am not 100% sure. As I said it's a long time ago. I remember that it was at the Brazilian GP that it was discovered, but I can't remember the year.
Was their not something floating around too about Lancia filling the fire extinguishers on the Integrales with N2O? Or was that just a rallying urban myth?
It was abused a bit more blatantly that suggested above. This happened in the midst of the FISA-FOCA wars in F1 in the early Eighties.Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD
Essentially they were regular air cooled brakes that had a water cooling system added to it by the FOCA aligned teams, Brabham & Williams in particular. Under the wording of the rules the car had to be weighed with all coolant & lubricants in the car. The water tank was filled before scrutineering to ensure correct minimum weight. Straight afterwards, the water was drained or sprayed out (but not over the brakes) over the initial laps & the brakes operated as normal air cool brakes.
At the time there was an interval between the end of race & post race scrutineering that allowed teams to refill the water reservoir to bring the car back up to minimum allowed weight. This was allowed because coolants & lubricants were able to be topped up.
The full nature of this system was discovered after the end of the 1982 Brazilan F1GP when FISA aligned Renault team, who came 3rd with Prost, protested against the FOCA aligned Brabham of Nelson Piquet (1st) & Williams of Keke Rosberg (2nd) for being under weight. Subsequently they were both disqualified but strangely none of the other FOCA cars who had the same system were.
All the FOCA teams appealed the decision but the FIA Court of Appeals took some time to hear the case. While the appeal was heard, FISA aligned Ferrari turned up at USGP with two rear wings, both of legal size & shape, because nothing in the rules stated you were only allowed one wing. Gilles was disqualified after finishing 3rd that day.
Brabham & Williams lost their appeals which led to all the FOCA based teams to boycott the 1982 San Marino grand prix in protest. It goes with out saying that this was a very ugly time in the sport.
Something against the spirit of the rules is not illegal. Simply put, in its ruling FIA assumed that controlling the size of the restrictor is all they need to enforce. Well, they were proven wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
So, instead of admitting that, they punished TTE. Not good.
So, what Toyota did? They removed the turbo cheat, won the title again (proving they are still the best team/car around), and said bye bye forever :up:
In other words, thanks to FIA we lost one of the most exciting car in WRC.
so you're suggesting they shouln't have been punished for the good of sport? :s
Quote:
Originally Posted by jso1985
Apparently the FIA don't like smarty-pants!!!
Correct, it wasn't TTE's fault after all. Their restrictor size was in accordance to the rule. The rule itself was governing only the size of the restrictor, nothing else. FIA were confident that that's all they need and that there was no work around it, but they were wrong. TTE saw that gap in the ruling and got advantage out of it. That's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jso1985
You are merely repeating what I said. I said it wasn't illegal therefore they (Ford) weren't punished. What Toyota did was illegalQuote:
Originally Posted by jparker
What TTE did was against the rules, full stop. They were excluded because what they did was illegal. Brilliant, but illegal.Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
Thanks to the FIA Toyota moved from one FIA championship to another FIA championship. Your logic doesn't follow. Toyota moved because they wanted to be somewhere else, not because they were caught cheating years earlier.
I don't get it :confused:
How we lost Toyota since they came back with Corolla WRC?
Yes that was what I was told from someone at the Australian Team. The cheat was discovered by studying the turbo under a microscope and a 'hair' could be seen where it shouldn't have been.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
jparker: According to the rulles all air going to the turbocharger must go through the restrictor. And the air comming outside the restrictor is therefore illegal. That's all and easy to understand, isn't it?
I wouldn't thought simply spraying a dye or something around the restrictor while ensuring that none of the dye got in through the restrictor would have shown it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by cossie16
:up: That's exactly why Ford got away with their "catch tank" idea. Because technically it wasn't illegal because all the air passed through the restrictor. But of course it wasn't in the spirit of the rules so the FIA banned it. I think that's an even better idea than Toyota's because they stayed within the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mirek Fric [Cze
What were the Celicas that took part in 1996, then?Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
I'm afraid I think your logic is seriously flawed.
Sadly it's just entertainment to some people. If someone cheats people just want them slapped on the wrist and allowed to stay so the show can go on :mark:
:pQuote:
Originally Posted by Bazza2541
Privateer entries, either truly privately owned/run cars or importer teams. That's why Toyota had only so many rallies with Kankkunen in 1996, not all countries had willing importer (or importer at all). Note that Toyota cars were not banned, just Toyota as official manufacturer entry.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
How much did the drivers know about the cheat? Did that factor into the exclusion of Auriol and Kankkunen from the drivers' points?
Yes, I knew that — I was asking because of the point I quoted, which seemed to state that the exclusion meant the end of the Celica in the WRC.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
It was such an ingenious self-hiding device, I would've been tempted to award them the world manufacturer's title simply for having big brains :D
Of course it couldn't be allowed, and the FIA did the right thing in the circumstances.
It was a blatant cheat, did you ever see the diagram? "All air......muist enter thru..."Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e1...e-restrict.jpg
OK, fine. I guess I miss Toyota very much.