FIA sends spy case to Court of Appeal

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Ferrari will get the chance to tell their version of the spying affair after FIA president Max Mosley decided to send the case to the Court of Appeal.
Mosley's decision comes after a letter from Italy's automobile federation president Luigi Macaluso, in which the Italian was critical of the World Motor Sport Council's ruling to not penalise McLaren despite finding them guilty of being in possession of confidential documents belonging to Ferrari.
In a letter replying to Macaluso, Mosley said the matter will now be taken to the Court of Appeal, where Ferrari will be able to give their version of the story.
The Italian squad were unable to appeal the verdict as they were only invited to last week's WMSC hearing.
"Your letter suggests that the outcome may have been different if the Council had given Ferrari further opportunities to be heard beyond those that were in fact offered," wrote Mosley in the letter.
"Because of this and the importance of public confidence in the outcome, I will send this matter to the FIA Court of Appeal under article 23.1 of the FIA Statues with a request that the Court hear both Ferrari and McLaren and any other Championship competitor who so requests and determine whether the decision of the WMSC was appropriate and, if not, substitute such other decision as may be just."

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61242

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61242

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or closed to protect revenue (for the good of the sport, of course, of course!!) :s mokin:

It's fairly public so far because Autosport has published the letters exchanged by Mosely & Macaluso.

have Ferrari been caught with their pants down? they have been playing on the "supposed" evidence and spinning it out of existance and it looks like Max has had enough.

am I right in thinking this will be public? Im rubbing my hands in anticipation :D

Time to put up or shut up Jean :p :

by the way, I cant remember seeing it but is there a interview in English with the Itallian FIA member where he claims that he didnt agree with the verdict?

now, THAT would be interesting in light of the latest developments :D

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

by the way, I cant remember seeing it but is there a interview in English with the Itallian FIA member where he claims that he didnt agree with the verdict?

now, THAT would be interesting in light of the latest developments :D

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Yes there is. He declared that he was against the no punishment verdict.

Max realised how stupid it was to declare that the result of the vote was unanimous while Macaluso stated that he was against the ruling.
It only highlighted the fact that the FIA wanted the whole case swept under the carpet and forgot it as fast as possible, no matter what others thought about it.

Now with Macaluso speaking up against them and with Ferrari threatening to sue McLaren Bernie and Max realised that they were so stupid not to fine McLaren when they had the occasion. :rolleyes:

Well just when I thought things could NOT get any dumber, hot off the press from the mouth of NS himself:

"Someone gave away the designs but it wasn't me. Someone set me up and that person is still within Ferrari," Nigel Stepney said in an interview in Tuesday's editions of Italian daily La Repubblica.*************************************** *****

A mysterious white powder was found on the gas tanks of Ferrari's cars on May 21, six days before the Monaco race, and traces of the powder have reportedly been found in a pair of Stepney's trousers. "I didn't put it there," Stepney told La Repubblica. "They put the powder in my pants pocket while I was taking a shower."

Or so it says in the article----That is the best he has got to say....????....

The article says he has a new job outside F1.

My guess, based on this story, is that he will be ghost writing the next Harry Potter book.......to be called "Harry and the Croaking Toad" or maybe a simple auto-bio to be called "Two Too Stupid Designers" who go to Russia to spy on Putin and sell nuke secrets to Iran but get caught at a local copy shop when they run out of money while copying top secret stuff and start asking folks for spare change so they could protect national security....... :rolleyes:

but at trial they get off when the jury believes that someone set them up , and the 704 page manual of top secret stuff was put there, in his pocket, while he was taking a shower, never noticing it until after he was arrested....

Of course someone might ask as to why he was wearing his pants while he was takin a shower.....to which he replies, that he did not not want to be caught with his pants down and look like a real dumb liar...while in the background Mikie boy starts singing "hey brother, can you spare a dime"

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

have Ferrari been caught with their pants down? they have been playing on the "supposed" evidence and spinning it out of existance and it looks like Max has had enough.

am I right in thinking this will be public? Im rubbing my hands in anticipation :D

Time to put up or shut up Jean :p :

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That is one spin , Flat .

But , that wouldn't fit with it being Italy's auto federation this is calling on the WMSC for the appeal .
And , it wouldn't fit with Max favouring the reds either , which is the usual rhetoric .

If one of the chief designers at one team was in possession of anothers documents they are guilty at the very least , of that possession .

It is suggested that , with more evidence supplied , the outcome might have been different , and , being that McLaren were not punished , that suggests that they may still be .
When he speaks of "public confidence in the outcome" , he is relating to all the polls being taken all over the internet .

It has confused the public to find McLaren guilty but not sanction them .


Even more confusing is what to do if we now assume they will be sanctioned .
If the idea that the first gain they made was dropping the flex-floor bomb , then just how many races did it set Ferrari and others back . Is banning them for that number of races the right thing to do ?
Or do you fine them an amount that would cover the costs the other teams spent developing the flex-floors ?




If what Stepney is starting to tell is a true tale , then Ferrari have an issue with which to deal themselves , in-house .

I have a buddy who used to sell Ferraris , and , in the middle of a recession , was witness to one of the worst examples of management of which I have ever heard tell .
Luca arrived to an excited staff meeting and unceremoniously dressed down all the staff down to the receptionist , swearing and cursing so venomously that he was spitting on all within range .

I think Luca Montezemolo may be who is getting folks to such a state that they would do stuff like this .


But , first , we need to sort out this public perception issue , and give them a fine and get on with it .

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

Time to put up or shut up Jean :p :

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Or, alternatively, time to **** your pants Ron?

Having already been found guilty, chances are that any further evidence will merely add to the pressure for a sanction befitting the crime to be imposed.

Putting on my biased red hat for one moment, a points deduction would be correct, but putting on my reasonable hat a cheque or postal order made payable to Ferrari SPA by way of an compensation payment will suffice.

Much as I would like to believe that my beloved Scuderia are only being beaten by the skullduggery of Wokingistas, I don't necessarily wish to see the championship decided in a court room.

On another (related) note, would those in the forum community who do not doubt the integrity of Ron Dennis please explain why, at the 2003 Brazilian GP, did he blatantly and publically attempt, and for a shortwhile achieve, to rob the real and deserved winner of his victory by saying that he hadn't completed the lap when he knew only too well that Giancarlo Fisichella had completed the lap before the third place car crashed?

Not exactly the actions of a man whose integrity is beyond doubt.

Just thought I'd mention it.

To the people who argue that McLaren should be punished, because Coughlan was a member of the team - do you think drivers should be included. So when Schumacher got punished in Jerez 97, why didn't Ferrari get their points taken aware from them - only Michael Schumacher?

Or is that different somehow?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

On another (related) note, would those in the forum community who do not doubt the integrity of Ron Dennis please explain why, at the 2003 Brazilian GP, did he blatantly and publically attempt, and for a shortwhile achieve, to rob the real and deserved winner of his victory by saying that he hadn't completed the lap when he knew only too well that Giancarlo Fisichella had completed the lap before the third place car crashed?

Not exactly the actions of a man whose integrity is beyond doubt.

Just thought I'd mention it.

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Did Ron knew? I don't remember him coming out and saying he knew all along.

To those who claim McLaren must have known about Coughlan's having the dossiers, because Coughlan said so, do they know believe Stepney when he says he never handed over the dossier? And do they believe Jean Todt when he claims McLaren knew (without showing us any evidence how he knows that), and Ron Dennis saying he or McLaren didn't know about it. At the end of the day, at least 3 of them are lying, its one persons word over the other.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

When he speaks of "public confidence in the outcome" , he is relating to all the polls being taken all over the internet .

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So mob rule has taken it's toll

If they want to close this off they need to involve everyone, that includes Ferrari, McLaren, Stepney and Coughlan. Until they clear up this mess no one is going to take them seriously.

Although for some, unless there is a hanging, you are never going to please them whatever the facts.

What a mess this story is....
For my part I am keeping away from saying anything beyond this post. I will just follow this story while shaking my head in disbelief.

:arrows: I don't know what to believe.....

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Originally Posted by raphael123

Did Ron knew? I don't remember him coming out and saying he knew all along.

To those who claim McLaren must have known about Coughlan's having the dossiers, because Coughlan said so, do they know believe Stepney when he says he never handed over the dossier? And do they believe Jean Todt when he claims McLaren knew (without showing us any evidence how he knows that), and Ron Dennis saying he or McLaren didn't know about it. At the end of the day, at least 3 of them are lying, its one persons word over the other.

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At the end of the day at least three are lying?? By now, No one who was "objective" would believe any of them....odd thing is that poor ole NS might be the only innocent one in this whole mess--after all, he did not get caught with his pants down while in the shower or whatever....Now that is a true Alfred Hitchcock kind of twist.....

Somewhere Michael Schumi is having a real big laugh, thinkin ok Luca baby boot my ass out of there...I and me alone put this team together, nothing happenned without my say so-so (and it was no accident I ran over NS's foot, that was just a little warning)---I was as much the team principal as is Ron Dennis at big mc.....I leave and six months later, Ferrari is back to being a silly circus, a dog chasing its tail and tripping over its own feet, :crazy: but now dragging of all people, Ron Dennis, right into the Italian soap opera muck with them hahahaaa :roll: :grenade: :roll:


Team :monkeedan Scuderia, our heroes!!!


Meanwhile, Bernie enrie is off thinking, that little lucky bitty, makin all that money--getting to be as rich as me and all she did was write that stupid hary potter story, she don't have to put up with prima donna driver egos, bloated old farts like Ron Dennis, sly little frenchman like jean todt, and the constant threat that people like toni george will not pay me my millions and the whole operation get taken over by a bank.......and now this silly mess threatening my revenue flow, just when I had Hamie busy ringing up sales and more new money, why he is almost as good as tobacco

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Originally Posted by Ian McC

So mob rule has taken it's toll

If they want to close this off they need to involve everyone, that includes Ferrari, McLaren, Stepney and Coughlan. Until they clear up this mess no one is going to take them seriously.

Although for some, unless there is a hanging, you are never going to please them whatever the facts.

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You are right , Ian , although I maybe wouldn't phrase your first line that way .
It seems like the hearing was a bit of a wallabee court , with those attending not hearing both sides of the story . For that fact alone , the decision is being questioned .

The rethink on this is , I think , due to overwhelming opinion , but was technically asked for by the Italian auto federation .


This actually gives me hope that they could come to some sort of agreement here , as they seem to have listened to logic and the public .

But , now comes the hard part . How do we assess the damage ?

McLaren crying out loud as soon as they feel the heat:

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"Following a thoroughly misleading press campaign by Ferrari and pressure from the Automobile Club D'Italia, the FIA has asked the FIA International Court of Appeal to consider the unanimous decision made by the World Motor Sport Council on 26th July 2007," the McLaren team said in the statement.

"Having considered in great detail the full submissions of both Ferrari and McLaren, the World Motorsport Council determined that there was no evidence that any information, passed by a Ferrari team member to a McLaren employee, had been brought into the organisation or provided any benefit whatsoever to the McLaren programme.

"McLaren is not aware of any new information or arguments that have arisen since the meeting of the World Motor Sport Council and therefore assumes that these same materials will now be considered by the FIA International Court of Appeal.

"Whilst this is both disappointing and time-consuming, McLaren is confident that the FIA International Court of Appeal will also exonerate McLaren and we will in the meanwhile continue to focus on our current World Championship programme."

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What was that about Ferrari making noise and hurting the sport when they felt wronged by the FIA?
Look at McLaren now! They even say that the WMC had a unanimous decision when one of it's members said that it wasn't true!
And they even say that both parties exposed their versions when it was already declared that Ferrari wasn't given the chance to present their case!!!

Spinning the truth didn't get them to far until now and I doubt it will even in the future.

quote=ioan;314896]McLaren crying out loud as soon as they feel the heat:



What was that about Ferrari making noise and hurting the sport when they felt wronged by the FIA?
Look at McLaren now! They even say that the WMC had a unanimous decision when one of it's members said that it wasn't true!
And they even say that both parties exposed their versions when it was already declared that Ferrari wasn't given the chance to present their case!!!

Spinning the truth didn't get them to far until now and I doubt it will even in the future.[/quote]

This was NOT and never was about "truth" and never ever will be.....which is what is sad (but MS was not merely the best driver, but as probably as good a team principal as there ever was--Ferrari is not the same withou him in charge, now becoming more like :roll: :s pin: :rotflmao: :roll: :roll: just like the good ole days

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

You are right , Ian , although I maybe wouldn't phrase your first line that way .
It seems like the hearing was a bit of a wallabee court , with those attending not hearing both sides of the story . For that fact alone , the decision is being questioned .

The rethink on this is , I think , due to overwhelming opinion , but was technically asked for by the Italian auto federation .


This actually gives me hope that they could come to some sort of agreement here , as they seem to have listened to logic and the public .

But , now comes the hard part . How do we assess the damage ?

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Actually I take back my comment about mob rule, I now think that the FIA underestimated the reaction to their hearing. I don't think that it's the verdict that's the issue but how they got there. I just hope they don't just slap McLaren with a fine because that will just look like they are just trying to keep everyone quiet and then hope it goes away.

What they need to do is actually investigate what went on, the only way out of this is to get to the truth.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

It seems like the hearing was a bit of a wallabee court , with those attending not hearing both sides of the story . For that fact alone , the decision is being questioned.

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I do think Max Mosley has allowed this appeal in the light of Ferrari's very public, and very vocal, criticism of the original hearing. The FIA simply could not allow that to continue without it bringing the sport into disrepute. Charging Ferrari for this reason would be counter-productive. Therefore I think Mosley has wisely allowed an appeal to go ahead.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I do think Max Mosley has allowed this appeal in the light of Ferrari's very public, and very vocal, criticism of the original hearing. The FIA simply could not allow that to continue without it bringing the sport into disrepute. Charging Ferrari for this reason would be counter-productive. Therefore I think Mosley has wisely allowed an appeal to go ahead.

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FIA's guilty but not punished verdict was bringing the sport into disrepute, they now decided however that Bernie's money is less important than risking to be laughed about every time they give a sentence from now on.

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Originally Posted by ioan

McLaren crying out loud as soon as they feel the heat:



What was that about Ferrari making noise and hurting the sport when they felt wronged by the FIA?
Look at McLaren now! They even say that the WMC had a unanimous decision when one of it's members said that it wasn't true!

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C'mon, even the FIA have confirmed that the decision was unanimous: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19461.html

And one may think whatever one wishes about the FIA, but I do not think they would knowingly falsify the outcome of a WMSC meeting, in particular as 26 (?) members were present and none of those - other than the gentleman from Italy, who so happens to be a self-confessed Ferrari supporter - have come out to say since Saturday, when the FIA clarification was published, that the decision was in fact not unanimous.

Be that as it may, I am looking forward to what the Court of Appeals will decide and hoping that its decision will put all discussions to rest, so that we all can concentrate on the action taking place on track.

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Originally Posted by gm99

...in particular as 26 (?) members were present...

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According to Martin Brundle's Times article there were 25 World Council members. Also:

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"...there were upwards of 75 people in the room with others participating by satellite link, and the questioning was comprehensive and aggressive."

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Originally Posted by gm99

I am looking forward to what the Court of Appeals will decide and hoping that its decision will put all discussions to rest, so that we all can concentrate on the action taking place on track.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by gm99

C'mon, even the FIA have confirmed that the decision was unanimous: http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19461.html

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That's what they would have liked us to believe.
How is that unanimous if one of the members says he was against the decision? Maybe checking up the unanimous word in the dictionary is in order? :p :

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Or, alternatively, time to **** your pants Ron?

Having already been found guilty, chances are that any further evidence will merely add to the pressure for a sanction befitting the crime to be imposed.

Putting on my biased red hat for one moment, a points deduction would be correct, but putting on my reasonable hat a cheque or postal order made payable to Ferrari SPA by way of an compensation payment will suffice.

Much as I would like to believe that my beloved Scuderia are only being beaten by the skullduggery of Wokingistas, I don't necessarily wish to see the championship decided in a court room.

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How about putting Ron Dennis in stocks in the township square for a couple of days. http://au.encarta.msn.com/dictionary...27/stocks.html

You could set up a tomatoe stand nearby. :p :

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Originally Posted by ioan

That's what they would have liked us to believe.
How is that unanimous if one of the members says he was against the decision? Maybe checking up the unanimous word in the dictionary is in order? :p :

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If he says afterwards that he has been against the decision, but actually voted in favor of it, it can still be unanimous :p :

Do you not think that if indeed Signore Macaluso had voted against the decision in the WMSC and then the FIA comes out to say everyone had been for it, this would have been one of the points that Macaluso would have raised in his letter to Max Mosley, in particular as this in itself might be a reason for appeal? I certainly would not keep quiet about my vote not being taken seriously - yet no word from Macaluso that the FIA's clarifying statement from July 28 was false in that the decision was not unanimous. Nor, as I pointed out earlier, did anyone else present at the meeting contest the FIA's claim.

In any case, Macaluso's comments immediately after the meeting on July 26 did sound a bit different:

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http://ca.today.reuters.com/news/new...archived=False
Italian Luigi Macaluso, a member of the 25 man council, told the Gazzetta dello Sport Web site: "There was not the proof. We could not have done more."

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And for those who don't believe English-speaking websites, here's the full reaction of Macaluso from the Gazzetta dello Sport (http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/ )

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Luigi Macaluso (Membro Consiglio Fia):
"Non c'erano le prove per un vantaggio da parte della McLaren". È il commento di Luigi Macaluso, neo presidente della Csai, all'uscita del Consiglio mondiale della Fia a cui ha partecipato come membro effettivo. "È stata una riunione molto tecnica - ha precisato - molto professionale. Il fatto è che non c'erano delle prove evidenti a carico della McLaren. Dei singoli si occuperà la giustizia oridinaria". Macaluso ha poi sottolineato di non credere che dalla decisione di oggi "scaturisca una mancanza di credibilità della Formula 1". "In effetti - ha concluso - le prove non ci sono. Detto questo c'è stato un trasferimento evidente di informazioni. Non c'è nessun dubbio. Questo trasferimento di informazioni è per me molto grave. Decisione appellabile ? È tutto appellabile".

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Essentially, he says that that hasn't been proof that McLaren gained an advantage, that the verdict would not damage the credibility of F1, and that there has definitively been a transfer of information which he regards as very seriously. (please do correct any mistakes I made in translating the text, my Italian is not so good).
Nowhere does he actually say he did not vote in favor of the decision...

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Originally Posted by tamburello

On another (related) note, would those in the forum community who do not doubt the integrity of Ron Dennis please explain why, at the 2003 Brazilian GP, did he blatantly and publically attempt, and for a shortwhile achieve, to rob the real and deserved winner of his victory by saying that he hadn't completed the lap when he knew only too well that Giancarlo Fisichella had completed the lap before the third place car crashed?

Not exactly the actions of a man whose integrity is beyond doubt.

Just thought I'd mention it.

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I recall the race stewards being equally as confused; nor did I think that there was any intention to mislead on anyone's part. But this is now rather beside the point, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I do think Max Mosley has allowed this appeal in the light of Ferrari's very public, and very vocal, criticism of the original hearing. The FIA simply could not allow that to continue without it bringing the sport into disrepute. Charging Ferrari for this reason would be counter-productive. Therefore I think Mosley has wisely allowed an appeal to go ahead.

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the best thing that he ever did ..... way to go Max .
McLaren , you broke the rules , you should pay the price ....!
I still want Alonso to win the WC .....

McLaren should receive a fine, like I have said. The process of the whole thing seems a bit messed up and unprofessional, however.

Some interesting comments & news on GrandPrix.com.

About the appeal:

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The move buys Ferrari time in which McLaren will continue to be under pressure and painted in a bad light, while at the same time giving the Italian team time to reach agreement with Mike Coughlan and Nigel Stepney in the hope that they can be persuaded to provide more evidence against McLaren. If sufficient evidence existed, Ferrari would already have gone to court.

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http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19470.html

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Stepney also claimed that a number of other disgruntled employees were going to form a breakway team and that it would have been led by Ross Brawn.

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http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19469.html

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The Ferrari board met in Maranello yesterday and discussed the situation regarding Nigel Stepney, Mike Coughlan and McLaren and gave its permission for Jean Todt to "initiate and continue any necessary legal action, in the name of the company, in addition to those legal actions already under way in every legal, civil, criminal, administrative, sporting jurisdiction be it, in Italy or abroad".
It is not clear why this decision required a press statement as normally internal discussions at Ferrari are not made public and it is blatantly obvious that Todt intends to try to prove the Ferrari claims against McLaren in some kind of court.
However, there is also no doubt that the press release adds to the impression that Ferrari is milking this situation for all it is worth.

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http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19472.html

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One thing that is clear is that the current fight is creating a new level of bitterness between the teams - and that cannot be a good thing for F1.
The good news is that the press will be allowed to attend the FIA Court of Appeal and thus much more can be reported about the case. Putting ALL the evidence into the public domain will give everyone a better idea of the real issues in this case. McLaren has scrupulously avoided giving away anything, apparently to ensure that any legal process will not be prejudiced. Ferrari denies leaking information to the Italian media.

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http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19472.html

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

According to Martin Brundle's Times article there were 25 World Council members. Also:

:up:

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Was Brundle there? I thought this was closed to the public and with Brundle being a commentator, would they have invited him?

I do think it's important that both sides get to ask all the questions they want answered and get to state the points they want to make. It doesn't sound like this happened in the first hearing.

As for Stepney, hasn't Coughlan named him directly in his sworn affidavit? His accusations sound really desperate and not very convincing. The Elvis theory is just as good thanks to Valve!

As for the outcome, if McLaren are found to be guilty and the penalty is deemed to be more severe than a fine, I would suspect that only constructor's points would be in jeopardy. But then, that would be common sense and the FIA is in short supply of common sense! :)

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Was Brundle there?

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As he says "apparently" there were 75 people in the room, then no, but he obviously knows people who were there.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

As he says "apparently" there were 75 people in the room, then no, but he obviously knows people who were there.

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OK, just trying to clear it all up. I would really like to hear some concrete information from someone directly involved with this whole mess.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

OK, just trying to clear it all up. I would really like to hear some concrete information from someone directly involved with this whole mess.

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I don't think its got to the concrete stage yet. Nigel Stepney - coming to a bridge support near you soon ;)

I bet that wiped the smug smirk off Ron's face :D It had to happen, since nobody but them understands how it is that you can find a team guilty, but not actually punish them.

What I know is that at the end of this spy SAGA, Mclaren will stay in F1 (whatever the penality they may pay or not ) and one of his drivers will win the WDC this year. Tha is is enough for me.


For other things, I am sure F1 or FIA can't afford to ban Mclaren in the F1 unless they want to kick out the sport. The Sport today is a business like business, so taking that kind of decision would be stupid for FIA and for all involved in this sport

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Originally Posted by F1MAN2007

What I know is that at the end of this spy SAGA, Mclaren will stay in F1 (whatever the penality they may pay or not ) and one of his drivers will win the WDC this year. Tha is is enough for me.


For other things, I am sure F1 or FIA can't afford to ban Mclaren in the F1 unless they want to kick out the sport. The Sport today is a business like business, so taking that kind of decision would be stupid for FIA and for all involved in this sport

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AFTER the season is over...too much revenue is at stake and no way Mclaren gets banned--a symbolic slap on the hand at most if anything....perhaps a harsher penalty after the season is completed (Why? well one cannot turn off the tv AFTER the season is over)

ANd NOTHING imposed for next year :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by DonnieDarco

I bet that wiped the smug smirk off Ron's face :D It had to happen, since nobody but them understands how it is that you can find a team guilty, but not actually punish them.

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He told The People that most of the current grid are lucky to be in motorsport's premier formula, saying: "Fifty percent of the grid is made up of useless drivers."
He also explained that Lewis Hamilton has "McLaren in his blood"

"We wanted a driver who was young and fresh, not a recycled driver coming from another team with the habits of another team," concluded Dennis.

That certainly explains Alsono's status on the team and I guess why Kimi, DC, RS and JPM left.... :rolleyes: :p being recycled drivers from another team, no doubt part of the useless fifty percent