The new FIA President feels Rally at the top level lacks real personalities, what he calla superstars.
Is he on to something, or is he totally mistaken?
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-n...s-ben-sulayem/
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The new FIA President feels Rally at the top level lacks real personalities, what he calla superstars.
Is he on to something, or is he totally mistaken?
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrc-n...s-ben-sulayem/
Mistaken IMO. It's not 1972, nobody cares for influencers or needs somebody with a voice to tackle political issues. Whether he's right or wrong, what can he do about it, what will he do about it? Nothing.
The allusion here is that WRC needs another Colin McRae i.e. someone who will transcend the sport and bring in new fans. Maybe the EA deal can help.
I think the personalities are there but the whole series lacks proper presentation for the big masses. There's no real effort to popularize the sport, no weekly tv magazines, no inside stories, no proper team presentation etc etc
The other thing is that for average Joe this sport requires more knowledge and preparation and patience throughout 3 days than your average sport like F1 or Football (the real one, not the Football which they play with hands :D)
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Colin was an unlikely organic star. He broke convention, team orders and arguably the rulebook in the era that WRC was open. You couldn't falsify that if you tried today. Rallying and car-culture isn't relevant to most people's lives now either, that's why they'll never bring in new fans. That's my wider answer to Colin constantly raising this topic especially with young people in mind. Doesn't matter how many TikTok followers or Insta posts with emojis (the obvious points) - they'll never own a car, drive it above 80kph or pull handbrake turns on a car park.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
He's sort of got a point; the sport can't produce personalities who transcend the sport - and it's been like this way for 10-15+ years. For all the success of Loeb & Ogier, they are hardly full of personality. In fact, under the old promoters, we saw them trying when Raikkonen, Rossi, Kubica and Block who would take part, thanks to their huge fanbase - and interest in the sport. Didn't really do a lot though, did it?
And the big issue, the lack of decent free to air coverage; being behind a paywall is a problem they have to sort out, as it's one of many reasons why more manufacturers aren't showing up.
This is the fundament of the problem indeed. How can we expect people to even start getting interested into rallying if everything is blocked - I would say even "hidden" - behind a paywall? We have whole motorsport championships, even of great importance, on live stream for free. Absurd that they can't afford to broadcast at least a couple of stages per event for free on YouTube, to attract interest. Nobody is going to say "wow, these 2 minutes video of WRC highlights is great! Let me purchase WRC+!".Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
As for personalities, I don't care for F1 high drama media pushed personalities. I think that for something like that to come, we'd need bigger, invested fanbase... I don't think that all F1 drivers are these incredibly interesting "superstars" while rally drivers are boring people. It's just that F1 has way more fans, so it's useless to try and manufacture "rally superstars" without solving the base issues.
On Instagram, Ken Block has 6.7 million subscribers. Travis Pastrana has 4.2 million. Sébastien Loeb has 460k. Sébastien Ogier has 270k. Petter Solberg has 340k. Johan Kristoffersson has 88k. Stéphane Peterhansel has 17k.
For some reason, American rally drivers have been more successful on internet than Europeans.
They create more content than any european rally drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by NaBUru38
I haven't followed Ogier, Loeb ot any other rally driver on Youtube as well. In the meantime I have followed KB and Travis for entertainment value only.
The same entertainment is given me by the guys who record rally tests. And given all of this I still have way way way more respect towards WRC drivers than everyone else.
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They could also open up the eligibility for manufacturer's models, open up the eligible tyre brand usage, open up the rules on tyre brand sponsors. Maybe David Hasselhoff is the star MBS needs to pull down these walls.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Americans, and American brands, use social medias more often on average. If I remember correctly, NASCAR has more Facebook likes than F1, or at least it used to...Quote:
Originally Posted by NaBUru38
Moreover, Block and Pastrana are "celebrities" more than rally drivers. Block with his gymkhana videos and Pastrana used to be the host of that Nitro Circus show.
It's difficult to decode what made Colin such a big star. Was it in the end that he was the first British driver to succeed on WRC level? All the big witty comments and rebellious behaviour started after his first wins or during the championship season.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I would say Tänak has a similar background, he's also the first internationally successful driver of his country since a long time, and he gives witty comments and sometimes acts "rebelliously". He also crashed often early into his career, and the Titanäk incident is recalled on WRC+ as often as McRae's 1000 Lakes 1992. However, the difference is that Estonia is not as powerful nation in rally media as GB was in the 90's, and the worldwide weight of the sport is not on the same level. The Colin McRae Rally games also made McRae a bigger super star than any other WRC driver, there have been kids who played that game without knowing that Colin McRae is an actual person!
We could also say Kris Meeke inherited some of his mentor's behaviour, but lacked the big success.
And what about Marcus Grönholm? Was he ever considered a McRae level super star? He also had success, witty comments and early career crashes.
Some of the most successful drivers in Finland like Tommi Mäkinen, Juha Kankkunen, Ari Vatanen and Hannu Mikkola were always shy and/or polite (you could also say boring) in media. Timo Salonen sometimes gave witty comments and had some unique characteristics, but his career was so short that no one thinks about him before the four aforementioned ones.
Pastrana and Block cannot be compared, here because it's a completely another world that they come from. WRC is not present in the USA and their success is based in different disciplines. It's easy to enjoy a 10 minute Gymkhana video rather than follow a four day rally let alone a whole championship season.
Good question from Bin Sulyaem, but I would say it's not possible to make WRC superstars anymore. Maybe it's more about the Sebastiens setting a some sort of standard for the past 20 years?
It's far from the only issue rallying has but I think Bin Sulyaem makes a valid point to an extent.
It does feel like we're in a pretty fallow era of personality these days. Partly that's the crop of drivers - but a big reason is the lack of ways they have to express themselves within the sport. We're in a different era to McRae. The sport is more professional, society has different standards, social media skews everything. If his career was 20 years later, there's no guarantee that McRae would be a star in this modern era IMO. He'd have found it hard.
The WRC is so regimented these days that you have these bizarre 45-second stage-end interviews that no driver can be bothered with. Media zones, press conferences - the drivers just turn on a switch like they turn on stage mode in the car. Not their fault. I'm sure behind closed doors they are great fun - you just do not see that. It seems maybe only Oliver Solberg is trying to expand his brand these days.
Like I said, not entirely their fault, but top guys like Tanak, Thierry, Elfyn, Kalle - let's be honest they are pretty painful. Tanak particularly since that title winning year. Wow. Breen is probably the only established guy that looks like he's having a good time within the confines of the sport. WRC isn't a good enough product to create a transcendent star within it, purely on the strength of it's TV/social media package. Not a chance. You'd have to do something outside of that to pull new fans in and drag the whole thing up. F1 was already a juggernaut but look what Netflix/Drive To Survive did for it - particularly around personalities.
I think collaboration is key. Lean harder on companies like Red Bull, YouTube influencers (one of the first posts in the thread says 'nobody cares about influencers'!!!??), TikTok. Better eSports crossovers, not just the s**t WRC games. The drivers and teams have to open themselves up - it won't come to them - no matter how many rallies you win. Let's see what the young crop start doing.
But probably the biggest issue is, ultimately none of the established guys want to be 'superstars'.
That's my thinking too. The only guy right now that has the tools to become a "superstar" is Oliver Solberg. It's still WIP and it will need success and backing from the promoter, EA, Monster (and possibly a certain Mr Block), but he's the only one that is trying to grow his image through social media.
We may ultimately agree here, but this might miss the point that no media organisation is as powerful as in the 90s - so the content can't be either, regardless of McRae v Tänak, GB v Estonia or the popularity of rally. People now consume their own chosen media individually, families don't watch one screen together, nobody goes to work and talk about the previous night's tele anymore, nobody leaves a newspaper in the canteen anymore. We're all in our own bubbles - this forum is in mine, I don't talk to people around me about rally and I bet a lot of you are the same. WRC won't get into new bubbles unless it's relevant to those people's lives and sadly rallying just isn't. Doesn't matter if it's free, there's billions of hours of free video, pods and content to consume every day. People need to care. I'll bet very few of you search free channels looking for something new to consume. If you put TV on, you watch the things you already know (likely in the background of being within your phone bubble).Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Stars, Jeez. Open question: other than Ronaldo (36), Messi (34) and Hamilton (37) - name a current global star (under 30 for an extra challenge), that transcends their sport.
I think the Colin McRae Rally videogames did a lot for McRae's popularity, especially on the younger audience back then. I remember in my middle school and highschool, there were various kids who knew that Colin McRae was a famous rally driver because of the videogames. But I doubt many of them eventualy got interested in rallying, considering there was almost no way of following it. The only other driver I remember being mentioned was Ari Vatanen and his Pikes Peak one hand drive :) On the other hand, rally cars like Impreza, Lancer, Delta, Quattro etc. were known by many.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I agree that in Colin's case it was a mix between being an already popular driver + videogames + being Scottish and therefore being internationally pushed by the British media.
I meant then that I don't think any of us need or want the current drivers to become that style of personality/star. Conversation has changed to the context of the question, how to grow the sport. Still, I think there's better ways to improve the sport than giving some TikTok dancer or whoever a shakedown run.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Yes but you can share more of your life and give behind the scenes insight without being an insufferable reality TV star. And social media personalities can be a lot more influential than a 'TikTok dancer'. I get what you're saying but it's a bit of a narrow way to look at that space. But many people only do look at the negatives.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I think social media, YouTube and collaboration is worth pursuing for the drivers. If I was WRC Promoter I'd desperately be trying to replicate Drive to Survive in some way. Ringfencing the WRC behind a paywall doesn't grow the sport - it only monetises it in the short term at a set level. Like you said, people don't watch the same channels, but trying to get a presence on Netflix or Prime with marketing budget behind it makes sense surely. Then people will seek out your core product and might pay for it.
Fair point, that is just my opinion of lifestyle influencers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Interesting that nobody has mentioned Andreas Mikkelsen's Youtube yet. One I subscribe to but I skip the episodes where he's working out or playing golf obviously. When he's not in the rally bubble that all his subscribers are already in, he mostly stays within the Red Bull bubble because he knows who the bosses are. Can any of the other drivers even make an independent Youtube? I've never seen Drive to Survive but I don't imagine it'll work within the Red Bull walled garden. If the sport is tainted in the name of manufacturing drama it'll lose the loyal fanbase WRC has.
A case of cart before the horse here...
You have to get the wider public interested in watching rallying first and when a lot of them are they will make the one who they love a superstar.
But another issue is rallying has changed to be way more professional. Its safer, and driving-syles less flamboyant to be faster, not exciting. The likes of Lukyanuk has shown flat-out everywhere doesnt get you a WRC seat and stardom.
Superstars????????????? Ogier and Loeb are literally the GOAT and they are BOTH alive and racing!! Whats more superstar than this? We have Craig Breen literally CRYING because he is amazed with these supercars. We have Esapekka who is naturally funny. We have Mads screaming about how sh*tty pirelli tires are hahah... we have a guy who won both WRC2 and ERC on the same year! We have Adamo, Latvala and Malcom, who are 3 of the most interesting guys on motorsport's paddock. We have weird-Ott (who was the first one to beat Ogier!!!), we have Neuville, Rovampera....
We have superstars!! The thing is... WRC superstars are only appealing and interesting FOR WRC FANS haha
Maybe some F1 fans will recognize some names and enjoy some clips with rally cars crashing.... the same way I know the name of some Formula 1 drivers and watched some highlights from last year's races.
Like STAN said. Its all about your bubble and thats it. Rally is not that relevant anymore, sorry!
I bet it will take a lot of time and drivers to beat Tänak's fan army during 2018 and 2019 seasons..
It all went together with his speed, wins, success(also misfortune), character and his movie.
not anymoreQuote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
Just superstars is not enough. You need rivalries and drama that grabs people
Do the manufacturers want superstars whit a "fresh" tongue?
I dont think so, in 2022 it is unwanted. Look at Østberg and the Michelins, something happened vs Citröen there.
How superstar can you be, when you have to please the boss all the time?
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Chris Ingram was posting video reports of rallies 10 or 15 years ago before he started driving.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
For what?? To attract this new kind of F1 fans that DONT WATCH the races, dont know $hit about the sport and only cares about arguing on social media against their rival's fans?Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
FormulaE is desperely trying to do all those things that "racing series should do". Create all possible drama (we can see its fake), create daily content (its impressive how bad their content has become simply because theres nothing more to say. Trying to "not die during the offseason. Argh.. Its just pointless!), Create engagement with the fans (fan boost.. "driver of the day".. meehh. This is Just to make the fan the center of the sport. Its non-sense), getting celebrities and retired drivers to driver their cars (which brought 5 leo dicaprio fans to follow the series on twitter..)... Look at them. They are trying EVERYTHING and they are still this championship where just a few people reeeeally watch, with stands filled with sponsors guests.... And its funny cuz I see the same blablabla in gt foruns wtcc foruns, lemans foruns, indycar foruns... Everybody repeating the same "oh we need manufacturers, we need to do this, need a reality show, need to do that". New fans are NOT COMING via these ideas and the ones that are coming are just there to see memes and social media empty content. This is getting so tiring. Myself included, cuz its contagious haha guess Im out from foruns. Cheers! GoNeuville
Rivalries and drama does not mean reality show. If they are natural, then it grows as media loves it and the snowball effect starts building. You can't copy someone else and hope to replicate their success. Could rallying use some kind of series, sure. Does it have to be WRC's Drive to Survive clone, hell no. Even better, if it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
You talk about these new fans like we don't have them or have never had them. Earlier Tänak's army was mentioned. I'm sure that about 75% of them who came to WRC because of him since 2017, won't be here after he is gone. Also I've heard comments from non-Estonians that Tänak's fans only care about Tänak and nothing else.
And as a disclaimer. I have seen Drive to Survive seasons and not a fan of it. First season was interesting and then meh. And I am not a fan of Tänak or any other current driver.
Quite a lot of new fans came to the sport with video games, but these were nearly all arcade-style, even Colin McRae Rally. These gave a lot of pleasure and a way of seeing the fun and thrills of rallying.
But since DiRT3, they have pretty much all been simulation-style. These are good for existing gamers and older hardcore rally fans. But I dont see them attracting new fans (kids) as they are so difficult and reward only accuracy not flamboyance. None are named after a star or champion driver either.
On the contrary, the arcade style games from D3 onwards (Showdown, D4,D5) all flopped in sales and nearly bankrupt Codemasters in 2014-5. The more simulation based games (DR and DR2.0) have been a resounding success with over 10 mil units in combined sales. The problem is that it's 11 years since D3 and there have only been 2 commercially successful rally games. The official WRC ones barely break even (and go under the radar 9/10 times) and the few other games (SLRE, VR4) haven't made any impact.
I’m pretty sure CMR games had full rallies (6 stages or so), even a championship. Dirt games meanwhile have gymkhana.
It's not just motorsport, it's not just sport. Did you hear about the European Super League last year? "40% of 16-24 year olds don't watch football" they said, ignorant of the 60% that do and totally arrogant in the belief it should be higher. "Young people just want stars", "It’s in all the statistics and the studies". Those were the words of the president of Real Madrid, the most successful club in the world who's finances were going down the toilet even before the pandemic. To fix that hole he tried to power grab the sport, blaming it instead of looking inward. My favourite excuse was "people can't watch a football game for 90mins" - because that's true! I can't sit out a game when a player from the winning team starts rolling around 'injured' at about 70mins. If they think the game is finished then so do I - but I digress.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
Fully agree with you. For the rally to survive this coming new transition era we need: more manufacturers-teams, new drivers with top 10 finishing level skills from big countries like Germany, Italy, Portugal, USA, Russia, Australia etc. Then we'll have much broader fan base.Quote:
Originally Posted by lmmjvss
Those big countries...do we need rallies in USA, Russia, India and China?
USA, yes. Other listed: no. Just my personal opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I'm sure that was said about 10-15 years ago......actually, I'll correct myself; it was the BRIC countries (Brasil, Russia, India & China*) but USA is an obvious country to go. Are we any closer to going to any of those countries? Is there a market in those countries for rallying? No point going if it's not going to make much impression.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
*Yes, we've been to China, and had an event pulled...
But I think the difficult sim games have been mostly bought by existing gamers and older rally fans... they're not bringing in many new ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by macebig
But back to the big problem - the sport isn't visible enough and it's long format doesnt grab kids attention. That's gonna be so hard to solve.
My meaning is that all sports need publicity and lots of publicity to get more sponsors willing to put money in.
F1 has been on top of the autosport pyramide, then F2, F3 and then we can start talking non circuit types of carsport in Europe.
Rally has always been the oddball, since it is happening on normal roads, and as a fan it is not much you will see every day. TV and now streaming services are bliss.
But before rally can really grow, it needs drivers that say more than 3 words at stage ends, and make people understand that driving i rallycar with 4-500 hp on different griplevels on every stage are very much harder than going in circles on more or less the same level of grip.
People like heroes in sport. They love fights like Senna and Prost back then and Verstappen and Hamilton now. Most are not following motorsport to enjoy cars on the edge, (as us petrolheads do) but cars going over the edge.
Rally needs Hollywoods types and others that create driver fan clubs and a lot of engagement.
Solbergs have just released season 2 of their private version of "Drive to survive".
Oliver understands how important social media, and that you have to give a bit of yourself, when in the entertainment industri.
Rally need more show to grow.
A part of JWRC is giving the young ones media training. Maybe the promotor need to give a crashcourse also for the older part of the field. :eek:
One day, we will realize how immensely privileged we were to live in a time where not one, but TWO gods of the sport (17 titles between them!) were competing in the same events. And in that golden era, some people had the gall to complain we "didn't have superstars".
I think you're missing the point; they're rallying superstars, no-one is denying that. However, they're not Global Superstars......Hamilton, Rossi, etcQuote:
Originally Posted by MentalParadox