Christian wants the FIA to handicap Mercedes because the Renault power unit can't handle the competition.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/re...des-domination
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Christian wants the FIA to handicap Mercedes because the Renault power unit can't handle the competition.
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/re...des-domination
Strange.. I seem to remember Horner being quite happy and anti any sort of equality moves, only 3-7 years ago. I wonder what has changed?
I love this part of his quote "Horner has called for action to stop fans from losing interest in the sport because one team is clearly ahead of its rivals." :D
Ha. He has some gall:rolleyes:.....
he has a point. mercedes being a full second faster than everybody else for the rest of the season is good for no one.
His main gripe though was that when RB was ahead, the FIA stepped in every time to nobble them. They were dominant in 2011 because of their EBD and the bendy chassis bits, so both were banned, hampering them in early 2012. When they recovered due to finding a sort of 'emulated EBD' though Renault's four cylinder mode and dominated 2013, that was banned as well.
So far the FIA has done nothing to work against that brutal Merc juggernaut. They are farther ahead than Ferrari in the early noughts or RB ever was. Yet they are left in peace. In that regard he may have a point, but of course this being Horner, nobody takes it seriously anymore. He's whinged so often in the past about minor things, now that he actually has a point for a change, nobody listens anymore.
There's nothing wrong with the rules. There is nothing wrong with Mercedes, and there is probably even nothing wrong with Red Bull.
Renault just sucks. That's the entire story.
Ferrari were in even worse shape last year, but they developed their equipment within the rules and not they look pretty good, as do Sauber with the same engine. It can be done. Renault just didn't do it.
and I can't remember the last time he had anything bad to say about anyone or anything. Maybe they just don't give a chit.
Even Adrian Newey is critical of Renault.
"We keep trying to offer help and try to be involved but there seems to be a real reluctance to engage. It's one thing being in the position where you're not competitive but you can see your way out of it.
"It's another thing when you're not competitive and your partner doesn't seem to be willing to engage." Adrian Newey
It sounds like Renault just doesn't give a chit. Why in the world would anyone involved in F1 not accept help from Adrian Newey?
And now, it appears Dieter Mateschitz wants to sell the team and bail completely.
Red Bull Racing's F1 future in doubt
If you take the two Red Bulls and two Torro Rossos out of the picture, how many cars start yesterday?
I always kind of laugh at these situations, always have - always will. Everyone has the same rules to work with (or bend), just because one team/driver is doing well you can't penalise them. Penalise RedBull etc for not trying hard enough
Thing is though other teams WERE penalized for doing well in the past. When Ferrari had bespoke tyres in the early noughts the tyre regs were changed to eff them over. When Merc in the late nineties shot costs through the roof and had a massively superior engine by using Romulan alloys, they were banned. And RB had their EBD banned twice. Current Merc team is not penalized. You can think about it what you want a bit of a point is there. It's just the wrong main saying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by anfield5
It's the FIA. You knew they were going to **** someone over. Even handed rules enforcement has never been something they were good at.
Dunno. It's pretty good for Mercedes.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
"equitable" is not the same as "equal". It only means everybody gets a fair shot. How has Renault not had a fair shot at building a decent engine?Quote:
Motorsport.com understands Horner could be referring to Appendix 4 of the power unit homologation rules, which states:
"A power unit delivered to the FIA after 28 February 2014, or modified and re-delivered to the FIA after that date, which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of power units for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated power units."
Horner said: "The FIA, within the rules, have an equalisation mechanism. I think something that perhaps they need to look at.
it just shows how much they are ripping the other teams off with b spec engines (williams lotus force india and McLaren after they sold there share)
as for motorsport.com thieving (as long term members of this forum know)
Yup!Quote:
Originally Posted by CNR
That is what they want you to believe. They simply cloaked those parts. Go ahead, ask any Klingon. :alien:Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Oh yep, here we go!Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
I think the difference is that Ferrari, Red Bull etc were doing something that was a little different to the others and the FIA stepped in because they didn't like where those developments would lead. As far as I can see, Mercedes aren't doing anything radically different to the others, they are just doing it better. How do you drag Mercedes back to the pack? They don't have a trick diffuser or bespoke tyres or flexible wings or ridiculously rare metals in their engines. What do you take off the car to slow it down that isn't also on every other car?Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Good post Hawk. They've got something going for them in the application of their PU, or somfin', 'cause they lapped every other Mercedes powered rig except Felipe, and he was the better part of one minute behind. just sayin'.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Things have certainly been done to handicap Red Bulls during the Red Bull domination. For example, the changes to Pirelli tires in 2012 and 2013, obviously specially designed to handicap high downforce cars such as Red Bull, while Mercedes was given an opportunity for a clandestine tire test in 2013 season. This charade went on until the tires became so fragile that they started to explode at Silvestone in 2013, causing serious safety concerns, and then the tire design was changed again towards something more durable. Strangely, once usable tires were provided in the mid-season no one was able to catch Red Bulls in the second half of season. I am guessing the FIA will change its attitude towards Mercedes domination once the 2015 season looks like a photocopy of the 2014 season.
I don't really understand F1 anymore. And I don't understand the people running it. Horner's right. F1 has some big problems but what he proposes is embarrassing. Asking for FIA to slow down Mercedes is pathetic. Why no one's asking to end this semi-frozen engine development BS? It's done in the name of cost cutting and yet half of the teams are all but bankrupt. It's obviously working like a charm. While really achieving nothing it also creates this 'competition' where after one race we all know Hamilton's going to be WDC and Mercedes WCC. All the people who participated in making these rules should resign and go home. They achieved absolutely nothing. They failed horribly.
And you have the McLaren Honda situation. They had 3 tests to get things done and they f***ed up. And now they participate in races for testing. It's definitely not a sport, it's gambling.
It was last weekend a 11 car race. Maybe we should get used to this kind of fields.
I think if Red Bull, Torro Rosso, Sauber, Force India and Lotus (all of whom have complained about costs) band together, that's ten cars out of the current 20. They could split the field in half and force a change.
Maybe the Concord agreement doesn't work that way, but I can't imagine a boycott by 50% of the entrants wouldn't get the attention of those who control things. It's also not hard to believe if Red Bull took the lead that those other teams would not follow. They were threatening a boycott last year anyway.
Everyone has seen this coming. There was talk by Monza last year of three car teams, and not much later the small teams were talking "financial crisis." It was by Russia that Marussia and Carterham were missing races. All pre season we wondered if force India and Sauber were even going to make it, and Manor still hasn't turned a wheel.
Even we internet experts saw this coming, and still, formula One let this happen.
I know this has been said before - STR is doing okay with Renault. I think RB needs to work on their car some more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nem14
But that has been true for decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Mclaren dominated the mid to late 80's
Williams dominated most of the 90's
Ferrari dominated the late 90's/early 2000's
And we all know who dominated 2010-2013...
What in the hell does THAT mean???Quote:
Originally Posted by CNR
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
Mercedes may not be running at anything near the maximum capability of their package yet either.
If Mercedes are foxing then the other teams are totally screwed, now and for the foreseeable future.
Only question for 2015 - Which driver will finish third in the WDC this year?
IIRC they stole the old forums and rebranded them as there own.Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
Should be Vettel. Both Williamses aren't complete drivers. Ricciardo is going to have many troubles with the french engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
Red Bull's biggest complaint is "driveability," so it's a good bet that Torro Rosso is running something different. My guess is that they are running an older engine map, one that actually worked but maybe gave less outright power.Quote:
Originally Posted by N. Jones
I kind of doubt there is much wrong with any Adrian Newey chassis. You just can't get the most out of a car, or even make sensible adjustments, when the power delivery has big gaps in it.
Renault is just lost, that's all. The biggest surprise is that things seem to have gotten worse since Mario Iilen has gotten involved.
If chipped baloney got screwed I am all for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Fan
Mercedes answers:
"I think 'just get your f***ing head down, work hard and try to sort it out'," ............. Toto Wolfe
"Those who continuously criticise have no idea what they are talking about," Niki Lauda
And, the ultimate burn.......
"Everything comes from Red Bull because they're annoyed their car doesn't work" Niki Lauda
b spec engine not the same one as redbullQuote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
but yet, the STR is more hooked up than the rBR and is probably that bit faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by CNR
Lets rember that RBR won 3/4 straight championships with an engine that was slightly less powerful than the competition., but yet in 2 of those 4 years still manged to comfortably distance themselves from the competition in most races. to the point where vettel would often just toy around in the car and go for fastest laps and other things since the race was well in hand.
Mercedes advantage is not the engine per se, but the entire package. Which ironically was the same thing that gave RBR its advantage when they dominated.
I have a 100+ quotes of Horner during those days talking about the RBR dominance being good for the sport and that other teams need to figure out how to catch up rather than them taking their foot of the gas. So his position now is laughable at best and downright idiotic at worst. Mercedes isn't even close to the top times in the speed traps. I believe 4th behind Williams, Sauber and ferrari.
Yes I would like to see more competitive racing, but i am not going to begrudge MB for doing whats right better than the rest.
Their cars are heavily scrutineered and unlike RBR in its heyday, have not fallen afoul of any regs or gained dubious advantages.
So i firmly say to horner...STFU
The three engines for 2014:Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Mercedes - 169 points per car
Ferrari - 55 points per car
Renault - 36 points per car
The four engines for 2013:
Mercedes - 93 points per car
Ferrari - 74 points per car
Renault - 114 points per car
Cosworth - 0 points per car
That says that relative to 2013, Mercedes engines scored more points than Renault did. Renault fell off the cliff in terms of performance.
I'm not going to begrudge MB for being better either. That's the point of motor racing and of sport generally, to go away and to find ways to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
For many years the DFV Cosworth was the thing to have and then, bang, out of nowhere the boffins at BMW came out with their BMW M12. They looked at the rules, and made something better. Full credit to M-B.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Absolutely!
http://en.espnf1.com/blogs/motorsport/story/194853.html
great articles that somewhat proves my point.
of particular note:
"But a key difference between Mercedes' run of success and that enjoyed by Red Bull is that the Milton Keynes racers were constantly pushing the envelope, using solutions on their car that had never even been considered by the FIA's technical enforcers until they were confronted by them in scrutineering. Red Bull were adept at operating in the grey area between the letter of the law and its intention, which is exactly what an all-conquering team is supposed to be doing.
Adrian Newey and co. interpreted the regulations in ways that were legal - or impossible to prove as being illegal - and because the FIA were unable to prevent the team from running components that were too clever for their own good, the Federation was forced to close up loopholes retrospectively, strengthening each rule so that wording and spirit were better aligned.
Mercedes, on the other hand, have followed the 2014 power unit regulations to the letter, and simply came up with a solution that far outstrips any of those developed by rival manufacturers Renault and Ferrari. Should scrutineering of the power unit discover any innovations considered to be within the letter but outside the spirit of the law, the FIA will act and tweak the regulations to ensure that all manufacturers comply with the rules as they were intended to be read."
Getting and maintaining an advantage is certainly part of racing, but it gets old when you are spending hundreds of millions of dollars and it's the other guy that has that advantage, and worse when you can't overcome it. It stops being fun when you don't even have a chance, and right now, no one has a chance against Mercedes.
Right now the problem is that no one can afford to lose. If I am Renault, I can't justify wasting that much money to get my ass handed to me every week on the world stage. If you want to keep the manufacturers involved, you have to keep them competitive, or at least give them the chance to make themselves competitive.
I certainly don't have the answer because I am also not in favor of restricting Mercedes or giving the others an artificial boost. The rules were the same for everyone going in, so it's too late to change now if you want to have a fair series.
See, the thing is, the FIA should not have written such a ridiculous set of regulations that would have allow this to happen in the first place. We never heard much griping at all over the old regulations, at least not over the engine formula. Maybe that's because it was not such a complex formula that only one company in the world could figure it out and make it work.
We need less complex and less expensive cars.
I'm pretty sure it was Mark that got screwed mate, but I never got all the details!Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Austin
the way it was before the motorsport.com beat up
http://www.speedcafe.com/2015/03/15/...ine-disparity/
"Red Bull Racing boss Christian Horner has called for the FIA to take action over engine disparity in Formula 1 amid fears Mercedes’ dominance will hurt the sport.
Horner’s team has slipped further down the competitive order this season as engine supplier Renault grapples with the current hybrid power unit technology.
Last year’s champions Mercedes have meanwhile increased their dominance, romping to a one-two finish in the season opening Australian Grand Prix with an engine Horner estimates has 100bhp more than the Renault.
Horner points to a succession of rule changes that took place during Red Bull’s four championship years from 2010 to 2013 as a precedent for legislating to slow down the pace-setting team.
“When we were winning, and we never were winning to the advantage that they have, I remember double diffusers were banned, exhausts were moved, flexible bodywork was prohibited, engine mapping mid-season was changed; anything was done (to bring Red Bull back to the field),” he said.
"
Well the reason was because those things were borderline legal and often did not comply with the regs as intended. Therefore those things were banned or were asked to be clamped down to fit the regulations. Horner is trying to have yo believe that those measures where taken to stifle their dominance, when in fact they were done because they were outside of the regs. Mercedes is well within the regs and just produced a superior package. If F1 had come to RBR and told them to change their design or aero package to slow them down then that would be a legitimate comparison as to what horner is trying to have done now.Quote:
Originally Posted by CNR
Like i said this is laughable
and btw, all those things he mentioned were on many other cars that followed suit since they saw RBR getting away with it. So the FIA told them ALL to remove it and pointed to the regs stating where it wasn't supposed to be in the first place.