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So I know that this is the 100th thread of the fallout b/w mark and seb, but this kind of puts an interesting perspective forward. No holding spots, drivers free to race each other, till they take each other out.. and so forth, I'd say a very brave move on part of red bull, will other teams follow precedent?
And I'd say all of this is to kind of pat on Vettel's back, as if saying, it was always about you.
What do you guys think?
F1: Red Bull Scraps Team Orders After Malaysia AffairQ: how many of Vettels wins have come through team orders.Quote:
In the wake of the 'Multi-21' affair, Red Bull has abolished team orders.
"There will be no more team orders by us," the energy drink company's motor sport director Helmut Marko told Germany's Sport Bild on Wednesday.
I think it's a wise move as far as soothing tensions between drivers goes. However I think they will question the wisdom of it if another Turkey 2010 happens. Regardless, the fans will get to see what they want to see.
I have as much faith in this claim by the team as I do if Flavio said he never cheated.
I hear you bro. What about secret team orders. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
I doubt Webber will be subtle if any secret team orders are given from now on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alca-Tazizzle
Not a single oneQuote:
Originally Posted by CNR
If they did continue to issue team orders, would either driver obey them? The main benefit of this is probably that Christian Horner will avoid looking weak in any repeat of the events of Malaysia.
El facto lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Name one before you lolQuote:
Originally Posted by henners88
AdamQuote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
henners, maybe you can come up with a more helpful response? The question was, how many of Vettel's wins came through team order and I claimed that none of those were the result of team orders. Your initial, not very philosophic reply indicates that you disagree, so instead of spamming rubbish, how about you tell us a win that came through team orders?
You know what I can't tell you how many wins came by the use of team orders because I don't have access to that kind of inside information and neither do you! It is one of those questions that no fan in the land can answer definitively hence why I mocked your initial response. I was being rather light hearted about things and if you feel that was offensive then that is not my problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Now seeing as you can answer the question, lets see you back it up!
Meanwhile...
"Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel says he would "probably" ignore team orders again if he was instructed not to challenge team-mate Mark Webber.
Vettel was asked if he would repeat his actions from the Malaysian Grand Prix.
He said: "I'm not sure I can give a proper answer because in the moment it might be different but I would probably do the same."
Vettel added his move was "indirectly" a form of payback for what he said was a lack of past support from Webber.
Vettel said: "I never had support from his side. I have a lot of support from the team and think they are supporting both of us the same way. I respect Mark as a racing driver but there was more than one occasion in the past when he could have helped the team and he didn't."
Vettel was asked if he was getting revenge for Webber being less than helpful in last year's title-deciding race in Brazil, when Webber appeared to be obstructive twice despite being told by the team to help Vettel in his championship battle with Ferrari's Fernando Alonso.
The German replied: "Probably you could say indirectly so."
Vettel did not mention the several times in the past that Webber has obeyed team orders not to challenge Vettel, even when he felt he was faster and was himself a title contender - as for example in Canada, Japan and Brazil in 2010.
Asked if he would have given the place back had team principal Christian Horner ordered him to do so over the radio, Vettel said: "I didn't mean to ignore the team's order. I heard it, but I didn't understand it the proper way. I apologised for that.
"Had I understood, I think (if) I had thought about it and reflected on what leaving Mark in first place meant, I probably would have done the same thing because Mark doesn't deserve that."
Vettel explained that he did not initially understand the team's message "Multi 21" - a coded team order for Webber (car number two) to finish ahead of Vettel (car number one).
Webber experienced the same confusion in Brazil last year, when he was given the message "Multi 12" - an order for Vettel to finish ahead of Webber.
Vettel said he had not been punished by the team.
"I did speak up and apologise," he said. "Sanction, punishment, what do you expect to happen? We dealt with it internally. I did apologise to the team as soon as I could, the whole team, not just the people working here."
He admitted his actions had undermined Horner's authority.
"You could say so," Vettel said, "but I went to talk to everyone straight afterwards. The intention was not to undermine the team principal."
When it was suggested Horner was no longer in control of the team, Vettel said: "That is not right. He is the boss, he is in control of all the employees. I am not in any other position than I am. I am the driver."...
BBC News
Wow... The team abolishing team orders in support of him is one thing but for Vettel to then effectively denounce his employers authority publicly is shear arrogance on a level I've never seen before.
Apologises for ignoring team orders then admits he'd do it again? Seb you are getting way, way too big for your boots buddy! If I was your boss you'd quickly be very aware of that fact if you tried to pull a stunt like that again.
Of course I don't have the definitive answer, but based on past statements of both drivers, especially Mark, I think we would remember an obvious team order that gave Vettel the win. Garry would be raising holy hell about it to the very day :D
I can remember a few instances were Mark was 'asked' not to attack or to let Vettel pass. Silverstone 11, Abu Dhabi 12, Interlagos 12 come to mind. In Silverstone Mark attacked, but didn't pass. Most people think that Mark backed off, but the man himself claims to have disobeyed the team order and failing to pass. In Abu Dhabi they told him to make way and when he didn't react fast enough they 'conveniently' called him into the pits. Interlagos is a grey area as both of the RB drivers drove as if they had their helmets on back-to-front. But in all these instances it never was for a win, but for 2nd or 3rd.
So unless there has been something super-secret behind the scenes, I am pretty convinced that no win of his came as a result of a team order and given Mark's stance on team orders it seems unlikely, too. Malaysia was the first time that Mark thought a team order was a good thing...
There are too many digs at Webber in that post for me to go through it and comment. I'm not a fan of either driver, but it seems to me you have an interest in the public image of one but not the other.
I think a good a good question to ask instead is how many World Champions have won their titles with the help of team orders?
Answer: Every single one of them.
Far less aggro in that summary.
the last one comesQuote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Well, it's the image that Mark created, not me. It wasn't me, who bragged to the media in '11 that he thinks team orders are wrong and that he therefore disobeyed them and it wasn't me, who boasted to the press in Brazil '12 that he won't help his team mate. He made the bed, he has to sleep in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
That's the image you hold personally, not everyone. Neither driver has a squeaky clean past but Marks public admissions or condemnations earn him more respect from 'some' of us.
If you followed the discussions over the last 3 weeks, you'll know that I think that Mark's admissions were much more credible than Vettel's half-arsed apology, but even the stoutest Mark supporter will have a hard time coming up with a good explanation for Mark's behaviour after Malaysia. He said in the past that we doesn't think much of team orders, but when it helps him he expects Vettel to obey them and sulks when he doesn't. That's either unbelievably naive or just hypocrisy.Quote:
Originally Posted by henners88
I agree that neither of them has a clean past, so I see no reason to applaud Mark for the same that Vettel is getting blasted for. In the end RB did the right thing and abolished this whole idea. In the end it might end up giving us more excitement, even if it costs RB points and I would hazard a guess that not too many people around here will be overly sad to see RB and vettel in particular losing some points :D
I think Red Bull's reaction was as much telling as Mark's with them not being best pleased about being ignored either. Mark may well have threatened to ignore team orders in the past, but he didn't pass and win a race which is why I think Vettel is getting more of a hard time for doing so. We've been over all that before though and nothing has changed.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
I don't think it is a case of Red Bull abolishing team orders but more that they have no choice because neither driver is prepared to obey them anyway. I think Vettel has shot himself in the foot a little too early in this championship. I can't see Webber wishing to stay with Red Bull past the end of this season and I think Red Bull will be looking for a driver that would rather support than win in any case. The problem they have now is if they need Webber to help a little towards the end of the year like he has in previous years? If I was Webber I would end my Red Bull career on a high by preventing my team mate win his fourth title if the opportunity comes up. Sod handing a race win back to Mark, lets just forget it for now and let Mark return the favour when he deems fit. As you said Mark has made his bed, now he must sleep in it. The same can now be said of Vettel and the situation he has created through greed. Its going to be an exciting year for those of us not particularly supporting either! :D
Mr Vettle announces that (1) he did not understand that there was a team order to not to pass Mark :rolleyes: ; (2) if he had it to do over, he would think about it, and probably do the same thing again :vader: and(3) the reason is that "Webber did not deserve victory" .
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/106631
The headline says it all as it read:Red Bull kippt Stallorder für Vettel!
In other words, for Vettel, the team orders shall be abolished
it goes on to read:
"Red Bull flips for the world champion the install order. This means for the Grand Prix of China next weekend and for all remaining races of the season: free ride for Sebastian Vettel"
Appearantly the reason is that the owner was very unhappy about all the flak taken by Vettel over his disobeying team orders, so the owner decides no more team orders. :hot:
Call it cutting the Gordian Knot to make your boy happy.... :imubash: .
then Mr. Vettel announces that Webber did not deserve victory anyway.... :love:
You mean as to who will have a bit more fuel, so the other runs out of gas first???????Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Alca-Tazizzle
Or as brawn said about team orders: that we would look a bit foolish if we let both cars run out of fuel.......
or who gets the better tire strategy??? or why Webber's car does not always have that great start????
Or the old 'Please don't use your KERS, we think there is a fault' line. Webber has had more than his fair share of these failures in the past or so many of us think ;)
"because Mark doesn't deserve that" (victory)
Seems vettel is getting a bit arrogant towards his team..claiming that he misunderstood but would do it again
Earlier Horner said:
When asked why the team did not ask Vettel to relinquish the position to Webber in the closing stages to make up for his defiance, Horner said: "Do you honestly think that if we had told him 'slow down and give the place back', he would have given it back?
"There was no point. He had made it quite clear what his intention was by making the move. He knew what the communication was. He had had the communication. He chose to ignore it.
"He put his interest beyond what the team's position was. He was focused on those seven points difference between second and first place - which was wrong. He has accepted it was wrong."
Malaysian GP: Red Bull sure Vettel flouted team order deliberately - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com
worth a read: http://en.espnf1.com/redbull/motorsp...ry/105112.html
So now, Vettel says, differently and a big "so what" to everyone.....
"Maybe it is a little bit of a dreamland that you all live in, but what do you expect to happen?" said Vettel. "Make a suggestion!"
That's not to say he hasn't benefited from them. BBC Sport - Chinese Grand Prix: Webber & Vettel wounds have never healedQuote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
2011 British GP - Webber may have broken team orders but no to the extent of taking a win from them.
Yes but I don't think anyone really cares. I posted link to the BBC version in the Red Bull Team orders thread but nobody on here seems surprised or seems to consider it worthy of a comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
Will be very interesting to see how their season pans out now with no team orders. It's clearly Marks last season with Red Bull so he hasn't much to lose but unless his efforts and/or cars performance/tactics are undermined by the team it's likely that we are going to see some fireworks between the pair of them. Red Bull implosion?
I think the understated idea of this new policy is that they will just make sure team orders will not be needed in the future :laugh:
dj will come and handle you boys in a minute... have a little patience
Why is that any difference? What's different between breaking into a house and stealing 1000 bucks and breaking into a house and stealing 5000 bucks. It's still the same crime. And when Mark breaks team orders racing for 2nd and Vettel does for the win, the result might be different, but it's still exactly the same misbehaviour in both cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Multi 21 says the team was hiding team orders , even though they are legal .
We know now they were saying that number two was to stay behind number one .
Given their past experiences with team orders between these two , and the fact that there was a code set up to give the order , it lends credence to the idea of there being an agreement in place .
Coming to some sort of agreement about who would be allowed to win after a certain point like a specific lap or a final set of stops , says , to some degree , that they had both agreed to leave what had happened to that point in the past .
But , that's done for now .
It only makes sense for RedBull to come out and say there are no team orders , as , effectively , there aren't anyway , as neither driver will choose to help the other from here on in .
And , from now on , they will sweat if their drivers are in close proximity to one another .
Clearly , they were uncomfortable with the idea of orders to begin with , so now , with none , we will see how uncomfortable they are to have two guys that can't stand each other , jointly in charge of their fortunes .
If Webber is able to get off the line and the team don't short fuel his car we might just see some epic battles between this pair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
I have never had the impression that Webber, at any point, thought Vettel would have been within striking distance if Webber hadn't backed off according to team understandings.
Vettel saying Webber didn't deserve the win might be an indication of just how much heat Vettel has taken personally over this. I think Vettel might have just gone into F*ck everyone mode and has entered into the last refuge of the gifted - arrogance.
There will always be team orders as long as more than one person is driving each car. The "pit driver" can instruct the vehicle driver to turn his engine down for fuel or tyre conservation. That assistance can achieve a result that a team might find preferable.
There is so much wrong in F1 today...
And as for Webber not being a team player:
[quote=Tony Dodgins - Motorsport News]
I think you were leading the race by about four and a half seconds if I’]
[/quote:27g4j09u]Quote:
Originally Posted by "Mark Webber":27g4j09u
How stupid would they have to be to short fuel his car? If anything, Malaysia proved that RB only care about the constructor points and impairing one of thair cars would be colosally stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
Vettel caught up on the two laps between their last stops. When Mark came out of the pits after the last stop he barely managed to stay in front only then came the "multi21", so Vettel was in "striking distance" before the team order was given.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
Mark cannot have backed off at any significant rate, as both drove their respective best laps on lap 45 and the fight started at the beginning aof lap 46. Mark backed off when Vettel was past. He dropped back by 2 seconds almost immediately.
That's only half the sentence. He said that Mark doesn't deserve to be given the race because of earlier instances of Mark not being very helpful when asked to - mainly Abu Dhabi and Brazil last year. But I agree with the "eff everyone" attitude. There is a very lengthy Interview with him on Motorsport-Total, which sounds a lot different than Benson's rather biased article. Benson deliberately misquotes several statements. Basically it boils down to these things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
- He said everything that was to say and is tired of repeating it over and over.
- He mistook the Multi21 due to poor audibility for a change of settings. Important messages are usually given more than once, while "multi21" was given only once, so he assumed whatever it was had solved itself, because the message was not repeated.
- He isn't sure if he would have stayed behind had he understood the message properly. He speculated that he might have thought about it, but probably would have overtaken anyways, since he doesn't see any reason to gift Mark a race after the stunt he pulled on him at Brazil.
Ferrari was raked over the coals for Austria 2002 and Germany 2010 and that were races in the middle of the season. Why are team orders suddenly acceptable as early as the second race?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whyzars
You have used that analogy before and I don't agree with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_bytedisaster
Webber's actions was a lesser evil.
How about cheating on a partner? Kissing is one thing, sex is another? One would say the former is more forgiveable than the latter.
Ho Hum. Each to their own.
That is the absolute summit of arrogance right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zico
That quote leaves out the second part of Vettels statement. He said Mark doesn't deserve to be given a race because he refused to help at Brazil '12 despite being asked to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranger
Al those "didn't deserve it" quote you find in Benson's article on BBC or on Autosport are from a lengthy German language interview on Motorsport-Total
The exact quote is: In Anbetracht der Ereignisse in den vergangenen Jahren glaube ich, dass der Mark es nicht verdient gehabt hätte, dass ich den zweiten Platz halte und ihm den Sieg überlasse.
Considering the events of the last years, I believe that Mark wouldn't have deserved that I hold second place and give him the win.
Fortunately its not really down to Vettel to decide who deserves to win and who doesn't. That is a pretty arrogant stance IMO.