...it's the CARS stupid. Build it and they will come!
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...it's the CARS stupid. Build it and they will come!
This will rub them up the wrong way!!
you beat me too it!!Quote:
Originally Posted by geosin1945
Seriously, I do not think it is the cars, at least not in a way that the series itself can 'solve" (i.e. - even an exciting spec is still spec and you cannot MAKE people build great cars)....
Also, this car has most certainly delivered in terms of good racing. Sure it is not a looker (although I would argue that it is pretty slick in speedway trim) - but do you "marry" a performance "10" who runs off with every race she finds (often the case in F1 or even in the days of CART chassis competition) or a performance "7" that give you a great race almost every time???
I think the problem is much more comprehensive than the car and honestly, it has much less to do with anything that Indycar can actually control than anybody seems to be willing to believe.....
Same tracks, same players, same tradition, what is the problem. Ok is not a car. What else there. What they can sell me? Ride on ferris wheel. F1 and CART speak for themself in numbers of fans, media, tv etc. I guess 0.2 is happy with today spec racing. I don't see F1 suffering and I don't see 10 as you, I see perfection of motor racing on every level. Millions agree and pay to see it. I see 7 as good as how many yellows come out. I still believe Indycars problem is the spec product that is hard to sell. My opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
The spec product is absolutely part of the issue - but I don't see an easy solution for it - I cannot imagine anyone lining up to build a unique team car for the series anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
One of the problems you cited was the yellows - that is not the car - that is a series worried about lawsuits and American's feelings about people getting hurt etc. For better or worse AOWR has been running scared since/because of the Krosnoff, Rodriguez, Moore, Zanardi, DaMatta, Renna, Dana and Wheldon accidents and it shows.... Formula 1 has been "lucky" that Senna was the last fatality and their procedures, rules and officiating show a certain amount of confidence due to that fact...
Also, really, the heyday of CART was not THAT diverse - for a while most everything was MArch, then a Lola, then a Reynard.... yes there was opportunity and that made things interesting for us fans - but I am not entirely convinced it pulled in more fans in and of itself.....
I think the heyday of CART had much more to do with a convergence of advertising opportunities that either no longer exist (tobacco) or have been surpassed in value by "new" media. CART was popular because it had a ton of corporate support that used the series as a marketing event either for lack of any other alternative (tobacco) or because it provided the best pre-internet advertising value....
Also, Formula 1 has been and continues to be similar in size in the market in question - the United States (I do not think TV ratings have improved that much for F1 in years if at all). The reason F1 is so big is that they have purposefully cultivated a much larger market and the core of that market (Europe) is and always has been much more interested in motorsports than the core American market. Indycar has always gone for the core US market and taken anything else it gets as a bonus....
I understand where you are coming from and I agree that an open spec would be way cool - but I just do not think it will make enough difference. With the exception of the very beginning of cars, the brief era of CART and the current NASCAR juggernaut (which is slowing quite a lot) auto racing has always been a well respected niche market in this country and even NASCAR is still barely grasping at "mainstream" relative to the stick and ball sports....
Indycar needs to do what it can with what it has and focus on being the best niche sport it can be so that the next time events converge to allow it to "go mainstream" it is healthy enough to grow to accommodate the situation.....
I understand what u saying but if you own a steak house wouldn't be good idea to have a good steak first. Perhaps it won't matter much if things continue as they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris R
A front of the pack F1 car costs what - something like 5 or 6 times more than an Indy car?
Indy car desperately needs management stability (a benevolent dictator), and a freaking plan. (No. Not tony george)
Formula 1 is immensely popular. But I don't think it's just the cars. For example, there is one dimension to Formula 1 that IndyCar completely lacks. And that is TEAM COMPETION. Formula 1 has a constructor's championship. Of course, some teams are poor and others are rich. One way to offset this and have a sport where even weak team can sometimes score points and even podiums is to have TWO CARS PER TEAM. point. Cars of the same team use the same LIVERIES, which make it clear that cars belong to the same team. A lot of people are used to root for one team, regardless of who is driving it. The Tifosi support Ferrari. The British tend to root for McLaren and Williams, etc. IndyCar has none of this.
However, cars do add a lot of excitement and unpredictability to F1. Some teams start a season with a good car, score podiums, then let their development slide by the end of year, and have a hard time fighting for points finishes. Sometimes the reverse happens when a team (specially rich team) starts season slow and improves the car considerably during the season. However, it's not clear how Indycar can afford this. A good compromise would be to allow the idea of customer chassis or aero kits bolted on the current Dalara chassis.
Some good points. It would be difficult though for most teams to field identical liveried cars since only two teams have the same sponsor for both cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
The casual fan doesn't give a rats ass about the cars. They care about what's trending, shove it there face and they will watch.
Formula 1 also has a national competition element that a US series cannot have - England vs. Italy is a big deal over there - New Jersey vs. Kansas - not so much.....
I agree the two car teams with identical liveries have always been an integral part of F1 (at least in modern times) and it really helps create identities for teams, sponsors and drivers..... I think this is a place where NASCAR is starting to lose it - the different color schemes used for different sponsors on the same car throughout the year seem to fuel die cast sales to hard core fans - but I don't watch Cup racing that much and I just find it confusing and it does not really help me to decide to patronize a sponsor....
Interesting you said that. Roger Penske said a same thing when he switched to irl. Well ,what happened from that point on. I guess there is more casual fans than you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by 00steven
[quote="Chris R"]Formula 1 also has a national competition element that a US series cannot have - England vs. Italy is a big deal over there - New Jersey vs. Kansas - not so much.....QUOTE]
There is little of that ,but if you make F1 spec it would be done also.
Well, I know IndyCar can not be made into some kind of a national Formula 1 copy. How about CART? What can IndyCar can learn for 1980s CART which I hear was very successful?
Self serving Championship Auto Racing Teams are live and well in today Indycar. What today IndyCar can learn from 80s and 90s? THE CARS AND SPEED MATTERS!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by zako85
And that budgets have shrunk precipitously since tobacco money is no longer an option. Cars and speed cost $$$. Where do you propose the funds for "CARS AND SPEED MATTERS" would come from?Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
Gary
Ok then, what you saying it's cheaper to run slow crappy looking cars that only 0.2 watches and for how long.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
I think that the new Indycars are pretty and cool, but the championship has lost so much momentum, that recovery will be very tough and I am not sure that it is possible :(
Yes, that's correct. It's easy to spend other people's money.Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
There is not enough commercial support now for the teams to replace their equipment yet again. They just spent a bundle on the new car and spares. That investment needs to be amortized over several years. Until you can come up with a viable source for all the teams to get the capital to replace all of that equipment, again, you are wasting everyone's time with that sort of post. It's the real world and, like it or not, we live in it.
It is about the cars. But more specifically, it is about the cars that race at Indy. You can't fix the Indycar series, until you fix Indy itself. Indy should once again be like Le Mans, and stop trying to be like Daytona. It should be the place where the worlds greatest auto makers come to race against each other putting to the test, and proving to the world, the merits of their latest 'green' technologies. Unless the track is sold to someone who understands what made Indy great in the first place and why they were called Indycars, there will be no way to rebuild what should never have been destroyed in the first place.
I know the IRLista arguments for staying the course on this failed experiment. The economy sucks, there is no money anymore, nobody would build a car, blah, blah, blah... And yet Le Mans has no problem attracting top automakers developing expensive technology for a single race. Maybe an easy solution would be to adopt their engine formula so last years Le Mans engine can end up in an Indycar in front of American audiences the following year.
But that's all wishful thinking on my part. So is my hope that when Indycar dies, F1 takes to the track again in Long Beach. Although that scenario is more likely to happen.
And why is this at the bottom of this page? Is this intended to target the Indycar demographic?
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Wrong. They have a product that sucks I'm just stating the fact, and if you think that my post is waste of time then why reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
No, I am saying that the sort of money required to fullfill your vision of what the series should be is a pipe dream. How do you propose to make this all happen? I keep hear about what needs to be done, but I have yet to hear how it CAN be done.
Gary
You seem to be under the impression that Le Mans is a one off race and that the manufacturers flock to this one race spending bucket loads of money for one race. That just is not the case, Le Mans like the Indy 500 is the cornerstone event of a series. A series where teams build cars that they can race at multiple venues and amortize the development costs over that series of races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Monaco
Your call for fixing Indy while ignoring the Indycar series is a non starter. I'll ask the same question of you that I asked Fiat1, where do you propose to come up with the money to build a car to run at one race, the Indy 500? Without a series there is no Indy 500, teams simply can't afford to spend the development dollars to build a car and only race it one time a year. No sponsor will put up enough money for one day of exposure.
Again I hear what needs to be done, but I see no financial prospectus or business plan as to HOW to do it.
Gary
Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
And you are stating more than the fact, you are suggesting what needs to be changed. All starter and I are saying is you are suggesting what but ignoring the how. We are replying because we are trying to get the point across that without the "how" the "what" is a waste of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
Gary
I'm not suggesting anything but my opinion that cars and speed are reason why people watch this type a racing. They can replace co every year,they can make czars,they can replace owners,presidents,drivers end everything else,but nothing will change before they move away from spec. Ugly ,slow bumper cars won't do anymore ,but you and all aur 0.2 frends know that already.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
excellent post!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Monaco
I agree that IndyCar is not in a position where they can make the teams buy new equipment.
However, they should allow more development on the equipment they already have, and seek to encourage more participation. For example, IndyCar could allow production based engines to compete against the race engines built by Honda and Chevy. Obviously, rules would need to be figured out, but anything to encourage more participation is good.
Exactly, give them current skeleton,rule book and good luck. Open competition ,it would be good start and something to look forward to.Quote:
Originally Posted by bricarr2
Fiat:Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
Skeleton is the perfect word. Start with a DW12 and the engine specs and allow SOME innovation.
I also think the production engine alternative is something worth exploring. It got a bad rep back in the day, but people forget that was largely a CART/USAC issue. With the the series now back under one roof it can be managed better.
You're right. Sometimes these one offs are entered at Sebring to ensure they are ready for Le Mans. Or in the case of the Deltawing, it was entered at Atlanta in an attempt to prove what it didn't get a chance to prove at Le Mans. The need to shake things down was why the month of May was a month.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
The role of the management at Indy was never to fund the building of a race car. That came about when a megalomaniac became jealous of the France family. The role of the management at Indy was, and is, to protect the legacy of the event and to ensure that it lasts for another 100 years. That requires a reverence for it's past and acknowledgement of how this event earned amd maintained it's place amongst the greatest races in the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
You keep forgetting that the Indy 500 came first. The prestige of winning that single event, was what eventually allowed the creation of what is now called the Indycar series.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
It requires an engine and chassis rules package for Indy that is separated from any current or future series that may or may not bear it's name. I'd be happy to provide you with a much more detailed turnaround plan. How much will I be compensated for my effort?Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
If you created rules for Indy that allowed new technology to share the track with the spec series, then I guarantee that Penske, Ganassi, et al would go over that new rule book with a fine tooth comb. And if they thought a diesel or a hybrid would give them even the slightest competitive advantage, you can be sure they would find the money to enter one in the Indy 500.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Build it and they will come. They aren't coming now. So what's to lose?
Agreed. A lot of people would moan about rich teams buying a win, but I'm not one of them. This is suppose to be competition at the highest level, not some forum to champion the egalitarian ideal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Monaco
When Penske brought the pushrod Mercedes to Indy in 94, they dominated, but I loved it. They thought outside the box, and we're willing to invest huge resources in winning the race. People making that sort of investment enhnaces the event. It adds to the prestige of winning.
While I know these teams are strapped for cash, some innovations should be allowed. Further, these innovations would encourage others to participate, something that would increase further interest.
Agreed!!! That's my thinking exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by bricarr2
.
I can see the pole row now. Unfortunately I can't see rows two through eleven. It will make the six car F1 event look over subscribed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Monaco
They run Offys, Fords, Cosworths, Judds, or anything else made to spec like they always have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
More than likely, it'd be filled with Indycars. There is still a series to try and save. Which I think also includes Indycar changing to small displacement turbo V8's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starter
Check the calendar, it's not 1965 anymore. The days of mom and pop teams being able to afford to build an Indy car are a thing of the past. Look I love the idea of an open series. It would be great to see a mixture of engines and chassis. But I think we are dreamin'. I still have not heard an answer from any of you calling for this on where the money is going to come from. As Starter said under this proposal you will have a small (read VERY small) field of cars starting the Indy 500. And without a series to go along with it, you will have NO cars at all. It's just too expensive now. I live in Cincinnati and the Hoffman family lives in a small town nearby, they ran a car every year at Indy from the time I was a kid till it became expensive for them to compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rex Monaco
We have the reality of barely being able to field 33 cars at Indy now, and that is with a car that does not require the teams to spend massive amounts of money on engineering and testing. Under your proposal that cost will rise exponentially. How would the teams afford that?
Gary
The money for the 1st entries under the new rules comes from Audi as they try to be the first modern entry to use a Diesel to win the Indy 500. The following year Toyota decides to join Audi. The third year, seeing the rise in popularity of the event, GM develops an hybrid under the Volt brand. And it continues to snowball, year after year. And thus the Indy 500 begins it's slow climb back up to it's place as a preeminent motorsports event.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
The Indycar series produces the rest of the 33 car field. The Indycar series is not going away. So why do you keep saying there will be no cars? Do you expect the Indycar series to die after one small rule change at Indy? As an equivalency formula, it's designed to keep the Indycar's competitive. It does not guarantee that an Audi Diesel would win. It just guarantee's that an Audi Diesel would be able to make an attempt to qualify for the race.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
This proposal is about returning the halo back to the Indy 500 and using that restored halo to shine light onto the series. The halo is completely gone right now. Forget about casual fans at the moment. To most dedicated racing fans the Indy 500 is just another track for the struggling series called Indycar. The Indy 500 needs to shine again for any series racing at the Indy 500 to survive, let alone thrive. This would increase the value for their sponsors.
It's not that it's too expensive. It's that the investment into the series for a sponsor does not produce a good return on it's investment. Bringing international media hype back to the cornerstone event at Indy would go along way to elevating the exposure that sponsors get.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
Every major auto maker in the world could afford it. A few would even spend the money if they felt there was some marketing advantage to winning the Indy 500. When the Chinese automakers come to the US, don't you think they'd find value in being the first Chinese auto maker to win the Indy 500?Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
And how much more expensive would it be for Audi to run it's own engines at Indy verses developing an engine that has to be sold at a fixed price and serviced to X number of teams? And other than Indycar rules, who says Audi couldn't sell or lease those engines to other teams once they are developed?
The track and the series were placed into a very narrowly defined box as an experiment. By all measures, that experiment has failed. And it's failure has diminished the value of both the race and the series. It's time to go back to what built the track in the first place. Because saving the race is much more important to the success of Indycars that trying to save the series.
Indy came first. It attracted automakers for roughly 9/10ths of it's 100 year history. It's time to put Indy first again and fix the damage that's been done to the race over the last 15 years.
It's either that or in 100 years the tracks legacy race will be the Brickyard 400 with the Indy 500 remembered only as a historical footnote.
Ok, who will pay for it? First start with the owners of the series to make investment in to the product that people want to buy, and hire pr company to flood the media with it in every posible way. Than open competition where common industry(in this case car industry) wants to participate and use the product for promotion of their own goods and that would bring the money with them. Now that requires opening the rules and go away with spec. Why people race LeMans? To see three wide go for hrs with spec engine, or to see something spetacular laping everyone twice to change history with new inovation and at same time intrigues and invites others to compete? That's what Indy needs, understand who is their fan base and that new generation of tech aficionados and car buffs is waiting for something with wow factor.They need to come back to what they always been, track and series of inovation with in rules. Now, when you have the good product you can raise ticket price as people like me are willing to pay more for better. I can't see Indycar making it with spec series and club type a racing, as we know that market and money is gone and why bother. Cars make stars not the other way oround. I do understand that tobaco is gone therefore playground needs to change to acomodate new players ,but you have to move on from mom and pop racing club mentality also, and that one spec ugly dallara is not way to go in the future. I would say to those who say it's easy to spend others money, that I'm only loyal fan, who still spend his own money to see crap product with a hope for better, and I still support those who took this sport down, just because of that little hope it will come back by taking right direction. When it comes to spending we all know how much was wasted and spend in to nothing since 96 without our help and opinion. Where is everyone? Yes gone.Why? Cars,that's why. They want better than .2 than they need to and should spend their money to invest in to best product posible or close the shop, after all it's their product and we are consumers.Quote:
Originally Posted by garyshell
I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the practicality is missing:
It's been pretty much proven that the owners (the family) are NOT willing to sink more millions of dollars into what they perceive as a bottomless pit.Quote:
Originally Posted by FIAT1
It is not true that all car companies see racing, of any type, as a desirable platform to promote their products. That narrows the field of potential participants quite a bit.Quote:
Than open competition where common industry(in this case car industry) wants to participate and use the product for promotion of their own goods and that would bring the money with them. Now that requires opening the rules and go away with spec.
Couple of things here:Quote:
Why people race LeMans? To see three wide go for hrs with spec engine, or to see something spetacular laping everyone twice to change history with new inovation and at same time intrigues and invites others to compete? That's what Indy needs, understand who is their fan base and that new generation of tech aficionados and car buffs is waiting for something with wow factor.They need to come back to what they always been, track and series of inovation with in rules.
First, people, and therefore sponsors, go where the most people watch. LeMans, yes, it still has the worldwide attention as does F1. IndyCar lost it during the split. There is no appreciable audience for sponsors to play to. The series would need to gain a following before companies start spending major advertising dollars here. It's a chicken & egg thing.
Second, there is no "new generation of tech aficionados". The car generation is over. Younger people these days do not have the same interest in autos and speed that there was before. Two reasons for that - you essentially can't work on your own car anymore and there are many other things, mostly electronic, to get into. Are there some folks still into motorsport? Of course there are. Just not enough. Of the people who attended races, motorheads were NEVER in the majority. It was the casual fan who made up the crowds, as I stated earlier. They go to "big" events and IndyCar is not one these days.
Yeah, but there are not anywhere close to enough people like us to make a difference.Quote:
Now, when you have the good product you can raise ticket price as people like me are willing to pay more for better.
Don't get me wrong, I would love to have faster, more interesting, cars; higher output motors; the whole deal. The reality is that the economics are not there at this time. Maybe they never will be there again, I don't know. In the meantime, I'll enjoy what we have for as long as it lasts.
Oh, and don't dismiss club racing. You'll see some of the best racing anywhere at club races. You should take a few in.