Citroen WRT vs Ford WRT

There seems to be a lot of discussion about the current differences between the Citroen and Ford right now. Four events done and a pessimist would say that title challenges are finished. Citroen seems to have upper hand, quite clearly actually.

But what do you think? What makes the difference right now? Is 2009 spec C4 WRC clearly a better car than 2009 spec Focus WRC? Or are the Citroen drivers (Factory and Junior team) more superior compered to the Ford drivers (Munich and Stobart too)?

Mikko and Jari-Matti seems to lost some pace compared to Citroen. They have losted paced compared to last year or even 2008, espacially Latvala. Wilson has been slow always, so speaking of equipment in his case is inrellevant.

But what about Henning? I think that he had more pace in 2009 than now.

Reporter asked in Sweden 2010 from Marcus about the difference between his current Focus WRC compered to 2007 spec. He was actually suprised that how similar that car was and there wasn't really bigger deveploment to better or worse.

i think its more driver related then car related and that the Citroen drivers just have been more consistent then Fords ditos.
Add to that a fast privateer Citroen (Petter) who have been taking points off the Ford boys.

Citroen have Loeb, Ogier, Sordo and Räikkonen and privateer Petter
(even if his his points doesnt count as factory points). That is 4 drivers all capable of finishing on the podium and 1 driver capable of top 5 (Kimi).

What drivers does Ford have? Hirvonen, Latvala, Wilson and Henning.
How reliable are they? JML and MH have done quite many mistakes this year
i dont why, perhaps they are feeling the pressure with the new points system? Wilson is, as you said, always slow and i dont know about Henning,
lack of motivation?


But look at last year, Loeb dominated the first half but then he had a couple of unusual errors and Hirvonen was able to take the lead.

every single driver in the citroen team is far better than its counterpart in the ford team. About the cars i think they are pretty much equal...its the drivers that make a difference.

I agree, all drivers have one wheel and 4 tyres, perhaps there's some difference in cars but nothing that would justify 1 minute loss.

My guess is that Citroen is slightly better car at some stages. On fast staff Ford is as good.

okay, we are here the wise guys but everybody on this planet beside family Wilson has to agree that Mr. Wilson made some tactical and general errors.
First it started with the follow-up with Marcus.
Everbody saw how good Loeb was, he's exceptionnel, on the level (or even higher) of Marcus, Juha, Tomi, Carlos, Colin. To beat this guy (when Marcus retired) they had to hire Duval the whole season beside Hirvonen and to ring Latvala later on.
And with Petter become free for 2009 they had another chance after Latvala was doing it bad back in 2008. Even 2010 they could hire Petter, now is Petter a problem for Ford like early said here.
Latvala is fast, good but it takes way too long for steady results. It was better to get him in one of the Stobart car and working on everthing a bit and play a good support role.

They already lost this season before it even started, like last year but they had the luck with the suddenly problems by Loeb.

And then the other Ford teams; what in the hell are sponsors thinking too support a Matthew Wilson who is really the slowest driver i've ever seen, it's pathetic and in his latest interview it was said it was a ten (!) year program..
It must be the Business 2 Business why Stobart is willing to pay the car for his son.
Then H. Solberg, many good international sponsors but he's driving for 3 years far from top drivers, he was interesting back in 2006 & 2007 but now it's nothing, hopeless, pathetic also too see. He's driving in nobody's land and will be catched by Raikkonen before the end of the season...
Villagra in the Munich car, why? With PG (or Pozzo if it must be an Argentine driver) in the car they had more attention for sure.
Block in the Monstor car is a complete commercial concept, i can accept that.

You need more drivers capable to catch and attack Loeb otherwise he will never make a mistake.
So hire PG directly and give Duval a fast car for the tarmac rounds and bring Meeke in the Stobart car next year.

Mr. Wilson and Ford are very good for the rallysport, thumbs up but the bad results is there own fault, simply.

About Loeb & Citroen; they are making the most out of it, the rivals making mistakes and beside Ford, from 2006 there was nobody else.

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Originally Posted by jacko

To beat this guy (when Marcus retired) they had to hire Duval

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i stopped reading after this .....

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Originally Posted by jacko

And then the other Ford teams; what in the hell are sponsors thinking too support a Matthew Wilson who is really the slowest driver i've ever seen, it's pathetic and in his latest interview it was said it was a ten (!) year program..

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10 years? LOL! Is this serious? :p :

I have the feeling that Henning Solberg can do mucher better if given the opertunity.. It seems that he's paying to much for his seat in this team.. No testing at all, and not the top spec car.. And he is also afraid to destroy the car.. He even told that he could'nt afford to loose any more rear bumpers.. So thats how tight his budget is.. Mathew Wilson on the other hand is testing with the M1-boys..
Is Henning paying for his joyride? Just asking..

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Originally Posted by jens

10 years? LOL! Is this serious? :p :

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Last year Malcolm said that Matthew would be champion in 5 years time, so if he cannot win in 5 years he will give him another 10 years. :rolleyes:

No other driver in the whole history of the sport had such immunity and support as Wilson Jr....

something really fishy might be going with the ford b-team maybe the tax service of brittain need to investigate, Or maybe not......

Today I was reading the newspaper and I noticed a comment from Mikko. "I have to forget my survival instinct and put the pedal to the medal!"

What?!

You need to forget that survival instinct in the first SS if you want to challenge Seb. Too many times I have read comments from Mikko in the Finnish media that "Now I have to start to push, have to forget survival instinct or put the pedal to the medal"

Loeb doesn't give same kind of comments. It's only like "All is going fine, I'm going flat out" or "I can't go faster (this happens though very rarely)". I don't know if it's when Mikko tries to go in the pace of Loeb, he needs to overachive hugely or does those comments say that he has some safe-mode allmost always on or he has bad uncertainty of his speed. If he has, those seems to be permanent.

When Loeb and Ogier are going flat out and attacking one knows that they really are attacking and they really have the raw speed!

In Latvala's case it's clear that he has the raw speed too. When he pushes the car is on it's limits. But too often it goes over those limits.

In Mikko's case I have always had a confusion about the state of his skill/100% determination/car.

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Originally Posted by jacko

okay, we are here the wise guys but everybody on this planet beside family Wilson has to agree that Mr. Wilson made some tactical and general errors.
First it started with the follow-up with Marcus.
Everbody saw how good Loeb was, he's exceptionnel, on the level (or even higher) of Marcus, Juha, Tomi, Carlos, Colin. To beat this guy (when Marcus retired) they had to hire Duval the whole season beside Hirvonen and to ring Latvala later on.
And with Petter become free for 2009 they had another chance after Latvala was doing it bad back in 2008. Even 2010 they could hire Petter, now is Petter a problem for Ford like early said here.
Latvala is fast, good but it takes way too long for steady results. It was better to get him in one of the Stobart car and working on everthing a bit and play a good support role.

They already lost this season before it even started, like last year but they had the luck with the suddenly problems by Loeb.

And then the other Ford teams; what in the hell are sponsors thinking too support a Matthew Wilson who is really the slowest driver i've ever seen, it's pathetic and in his latest interview it was said it was a ten (!) year program..
It must be the Business 2 Business why Stobart is willing to pay the car for his son.
Then H. Solberg, many good international sponsors but he's driving for 3 years far from top drivers, he was interesting back in 2006 & 2007 but now it's nothing, hopeless, pathetic also too see. He's driving in nobody's land and will be catched by Raikkonen before the end of the season...
Villagra in the Munich car, why? With PG (or Pozzo if it must be an Argentine driver) in the car they had more attention for sure.
Block in the Monstor car is a complete commercial concept, i can accept that.

You need more drivers capable to catch and attack Loeb otherwise he will never make a mistake.
So hire PG directly and give Duval a fast car for the tarmac rounds and bring Meeke in the Stobart car next year.

Mr. Wilson and Ford are very good for the rallysport, thumbs up but the bad results is there own fault, simply.

About Loeb & Citroen; they are making the most out of it, the rivals making mistakes and beside Ford, from 2006 there was nobody else.

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Agree - with the exception of the Duval bit.

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Originally Posted by JFL

I have the feeling that Henning Solberg can do mucher better if given the opertunity.. It seems that he's paying to much for his seat in this team.. No testing at all, and not the top spec car.. And he is also afraid to destroy the car.. He even told that he could'nt afford to loose any more rear bumpers.. So thats how tight his budget is.. Mathew Wilson on the other hand is testing with the M1-boys..
Is Henning paying for his joyride? Just asking..

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Henning should get out of the Stobart deal, and team up with Petter. That would benefit them both, if they could keep the truce !!

Have I missed something? There are only 15 points between the CWRT and FWRT after 4 events, it is still very close.

Citroen WRT is Loeb and Sordo, and Sordo has yet to set foot on the podium this season. If he keeps up his poor form this is going to cause a real problem for Citroen for the manufacturers championship.
If Hirvonen hadn't made his rare mistake in Jordan then things would be a lot closer. He's obviously trying hard to drive on the limit rather than settle for second and hope Loeb stuffs up (which nearly paid off last year). However now that Petter has refound his enjoyment of rallying I think the real threat is Loeb / Petter blocking out 1/2 on the podium and Hirvonen having to fight for third.
I don't believe Latvala has lost pace this year, I think he has accepted he is doing a different job and on that basis is having a good year so far, even with his roll in Turkey. He is backing Mikko up and scoring more consistently than Sordo. Its no good matching Seb's pace for 11 stages only to plough off the road on the 12th...
I think this year the makes championship will be a lot closer than you think and I wouldn't be surprised if Loeb / Petter / Mikko / Latvala / Ogier all had a turn on the top of the podium before the season is up......

I don't think the C4 is generally better than the Focus - they both have strengths and weaknesses, I think we are just seeing the usual all conquering Seb and a revitalised Petter against a Ford no1 and no2 that are getting used to having to use different driving approaches this year.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

every single driver in the citroen team is far better than its counterpart in the ford team. About the cars i think they are pretty much equal...its the drivers that make a difference.

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Ahem.... Sordo better than Latvala? Not on current form......

Time to wake up for Wilson sr. and to give the car of the junior to someone who can challenge the podium (like Petter, Ogier at Citroen).
Tarmac events are coming and we will not see a single Ford in top4.

I like Mikko but little bit tired to see the comments that "ok I have to push harder" - this is what he says since 3 years. Last year he was very lucky to challenge the title till the last race.

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Originally Posted by mjh

Ahem.... Sordo better than Latvala? Not on current form......

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I agree. Sordo had the advantage over the rally with Jarri coming higher than Sordo in only 6 of the stages and in the overall classification Sordo held the advantage in all but two.

But one rally does not make a season. Jarri has a 23pt lead over Danni and of course has out scored Sordo on every rally. In Jordan was higher than Sordo in 15 stages with 12 ending higher than Sordo.

Malcolm seems to think more about business than winning. Having some drivers that are there just for money is surely ok, but you should also have some challengers to attack.

There are free drivers that would be able to fight in the Top 6 given the opportunity:

Atkinson - about as fast as Petter if we should judge by times in crappy Subarus
P.G. Andersson

...and also one Petter Solberg

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Originally Posted by ridder

Malcolm seems to think more about business than winning. Having some drivers that are there just for money is surely ok, but you should also have some challengers to attack.

There are free drivers that would be able to fight in the Top 6 given the opportunity:

Atkinson - about as fast as Petter if we should judge by times in crappy Subarus
P.G. Andersson

...and also one Petter Solberg

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Mikko and Petter would have been a force in the BP World Rally Cars, both as number one drivers and then when/if Petter started to lead Mikko in championship he could play a supporting role or vice versa..

Atkinson Or PG would be great in Stobart but i guess they didn't the big sponsors like Henning or even Block i guess


Another thing to consider is that Citroen is a factory based team vs Ford being a contracted team through M-Sport.. Do you think this would make much of a difference, Citroen probably has a bigger bank balance i assume?

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Originally Posted by MJW

Agree - with the exception of the Duval bit.

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Duval is a good driver, I was so happy when he was leading Rally Germany back in 2007. :)

The win in Australia in 2005 was well deserved. :)

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Originally Posted by Ghostwalker

i think its more driver related then car related and that the Citroen drivers just have been more consistent then Fords ditos.
Add to that a fast privateer Citroen (Petter) who have been taking points off the Ford boys.

Citroen have Loeb, Ogier, Sordo and Räikkonen and privateer Petter
(even if his his points doesnt count as factory points). That is 4 drivers all capable of finishing on the podium and 1 driver capable of top 5 (Kimi).

What drivers does Ford have? Hirvonen, Latvala, Wilson and Henning.
How reliable are they? JML and MH have done quite many mistakes this year
i dont why, perhaps they are feeling the pressure with the new points system? Wilson is, as you said, always slow and i dont know about Henning,
lack of motivation?

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I cannot tell you how vivid the image of knives thrusting away is to read that as a Ford fan - but even though that is quite a painful statement to read I am unable to deny that is a statement that is so very true.

They (Ford) are underperforming because they are a tree with branches jam packed full of leaves which are underperforming regularly. They don't have near enough in-depth quality personell with the aptitude to win big and often to be able to worry Citroen even for one stage let alone one day or one rally. Latvala and Hirvonen do and can nab the odd stage win from Citroen here and there - but not anywhere near as consistently as Loeb, Sordo and Solberg (I have a question mark over Ogier though). I now look to 2011 and the idea that perhaps with the Fiesta already being built and run by M-Sport for the SWRC teams like JanPro and Nupel Global Racing.

What about Frederic Villagra at Muchi's World Rally Team? That is another team with Focuse's built by MSport.

Ford (M-sport) makes good money. Citroen wins champioships. That is difference.

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Originally Posted by Moriarty

Ford (M-sport) makes good money. Citroen wins champioships. That is difference.

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M-Sport must make money, Citroen can spent it.
That is the difference !!

Citroen mother company is making money - they can invest to rally. Ford mother company has been losing money since 1980 or something - they cannot invest as much. That's the difference. It's basic economics, when company is doing poorly, they reduce spending on marketing, like sponsoring a rally team.

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Originally Posted by Kamikaze

M-Sport must make money, Citroen can spent it.
That is the difference !!

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To make money and in the same time deliver some result not always against each other. There will be a point when Ford will say thanks Mr. Wilson nice that MS running well and earning money but where are the results?
With Wilson Jr they don't make money and no result. Sit someone in this car who bring some money to the budget and in the same time will deliver some result.
The Fiesta will not change anything if the policy will be the same.

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

Citroen mother company is making money - they can invest to rally. Ford mother company has been losing money since 1980 or something - they cannot invest as much. That's the difference. It's basic economics, when company is doing poorly, they reduce spending on marketing, like sponsoring a rally team.

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I don't think Ford actually put a lot of money into the WRC program. Hence all the BPCastrol, Abu Dhabi sponsorship. If that went, then I'm sure there would be no Ford team. And that is why M-Sport has to run a a business - meaning paying drivers. A sad state of affairs for the sport.

money or not, it has to do what kind of choices you make.
Most important @ Ford: why must his son drives the Stobart car?
Malcolm knows like everybody else that his son is really crap.
Why didn't he give a Fiesta2000 the whole season, it was for sure more fun for his son and more competition
And he can learn a bit more fighting in speedwise. He's now learning absolut nothing, can he be proud of a 6 or 7th place? Don't think so.
So get a speedy driver in the Stobart car asap, it will benefit the Ford boys Mikko&Jari for sure.
As said here before; if the situation keep the same, they can bring even a better car but with Loeb still out there and even Ogier is already shining Ford will have to do it with the crumbles left by Citroen.
Ford must hire Ogier for 2011 if possible (if not than bring Petter back), give Meeke the Stobart car, that would be something right to do...

Newspapers in Sweden says PG will drive a M-sport Fiesta R2 in Pirelli rally this weekend. Malcolm W phoned PG before Turkey and asked him - so there you have your fast driver to line up Stobart rest of the year....

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Originally Posted by Rallyper

Newspapers in Sweden says PG will drive a M-sport Fiesta R2 in Pirelli rally this weekend. Malcolm W phoned PG before Turkey and asked him - so there you have your fast driver to line up Stobart rest of the year....

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For sure PG is a bonus if he gets a WRCar. I think Stobart wants a britsh driver so Meeke or Wilks is the best choice to replace Matthew for 2011.
I hope PG will take over the sponsers from H. Solberg otherwise the sponsers are insane, H. Solberg is a nice person and good for the show but not enough speed. It's time for action at the front, battles to the end!

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Originally Posted by jacko

For sure PG is a bonus if he gets a WRCar. I think Stobart wants a britsh driver so Meeke or Wilks is the best choice to replace Matthew for 2011.
I hope PG will take over the sponsers from H. Solberg otherwise the sponsers are insane, H. Solberg is a nice person and good for the show but not enough speed. It's time for action at the front, battles to the end!

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Henning has been utterly disappointing this year (and also most of last year) - he was actually "much" faster in the Pug! Little (=none) testing, a new codriver - but still he should have been faster!

Prehaps Chris Atkinson could replace Henning Solberg.

Rubbish, both companies have been loosing money for ages!! But right now ford is the best positioned!

PSA Citroen is actually doing good thanks to the French government and all the money and protectionist measures they have applied to protect the company. Citroen HAS to be 100% french, its almost like a national team! supported with taxpayer money! thats why they are getting Ogier ready, and so to make a 100% french lineup!

About ford, true, they were loosing money for a long time, but right now the company is doing quite well, specially in America. The involvement of ford in rally america is quite encouraging, maybe it can lead to more budget being pumped into FWRT.

However the big difference here is that Ford had no government support and that is why right now it wont invest more in rallying!!

And that is NOT basic economics its basic finance and accounting

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

Citroen mother company is making money - they can invest to rally. Ford mother company has been losing money since 1980 or something - they cannot invest as much. That's the difference. It's basic economics, when company is doing poorly, they reduce spending on marketing, like sponsoring a rally team.

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Originally Posted by jonas_mcrae

And that is NOT basic economics its basic finance and accounting

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Sure it is. You are saying that it's not fair that PSA is supported by government while Ford is not. Boohoo. PSA is still in better financial shape than Ford is. And wasn't it the US government helping all 3 big US companies when they were on verge of bankrupt.

To be honest I can't claim to know their below the line results well enough to make deep analysis about their situation. For me it just seems that Citroen is putting more money to WRC than Ford. With the help of Red Bull of course.

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

Citroen mother company is making money - they can invest to rally. Ford mother company has been losing money since 1980 or something - they cannot invest as much. That's the difference. It's basic economics, when company is doing poorly, they reduce spending on marketing, like sponsoring a rally team.

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Oh come on! What an absurd thing to say! Ford becomes top-selling brand in Europe... http://freep.com/article/20100415/BU...rand-in-Europe

or Ford beats VW, takes No. 1 spot in Europe... http://freep.com/article/20100416/BU...spot-in-Europe

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Originally Posted by Woodeye

Sure it is. You are saying that it's not fair that PSA is supported by government while Ford is not. Boohoo. PSA is still in better financial shape than Ford is. And wasn't it the US government helping all 3 big US companies when they were on verge of bankrupt.

To be honest I can't claim to know their below the line results well enough to make deep analysis about their situation. For me it just seems that Citroen is putting more money to WRC than Ford. With the help of Red Bull of course.

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I don't know much about Ford's finances either, but I do know that they received nothing from the government. The American government gave literally billions of dollars to GM and Chrysler, while Ford received nothing because they were considered to be doing okay.

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Originally Posted by serial jeff

I don't know much about Ford's finances either, but I do know that they received nothing from the government. The American government gave literally billions of dollars to GM and Chrysler, while Ford received nothing because they were considered to be doing okay.

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Ford US did manage to force themselves to take a 6 billion dollar soft loan from the US Treasury last year to help improve fuel efficiency in future models and to pay for better production methods.
The company will also receive further funds this year and throughout 2011.

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Originally Posted by serial jeff

The American government gave literally billions of dollars to GM and Chrysler, while Ford received nothing because they were considered to be doing okay.

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Well done!

Isn't Ford the hot automaker on a roll, gaining sales, posting profits, riding the goodwill of a nation for avoiding federal life support and sporting a stock price that's tripled in the past year?

And isn't GM the much-derided Government Motors, 61% owned by Uncle Sam, shrunken from eight to four brands in a bankruptcy that wiped out the Old GM shareholders, and still losing money as of its latest financial report a week ago?
True on both counts... says DFP.

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Originally Posted by Bobcat

Oh come on! What an absurd thing to say! Ford becomes top-selling brand in Europe... http://freep.com/article/20100415/BU...rand-in-Europe

or Ford beats VW, takes No. 1 spot in Europe... http://freep.com/article/20100416/BU...spot-in-Europe

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There is a difference between sales and profit....

Other points related to the discussion in this thread;

- I am sure Stobart get a "special discount" for running Matty instead of another driver.

- It does seem the Ford isn't up to the standard of the Citroen this year, but I also think the Fiesta will need to be faster than the DS3 if Loeb is going to be beaten.

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Originally Posted by noel157

Ford US did manage to force themselves to take a 6 billion dollar soft loan from the US Treasury last year to help improve fuel efficiency in future models and to pay for better production methods.
The company will also receive further funds this year and throughout 2011.

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That is so not true! Tesla, Ford and Nissan win big with DOE grants... http://revengeoftheelectriccar.com/t...th-doe-grants/