WRC 1.6T or IRC S2000

Now that it looks likely that the re-launched WRC championship wont be a 'winter series' i.e Finalnd in August 2010, but a January 2011 start with the cars being powered by a 1.6T rather than the simple S2K that Max spoke about. What do you think will happen in 2010 and beyond? 2010 looks like another Citroen versus Ford year with Loeb staying. In simple terms that means most of the current drivers without a factory drive, Petter, Meeke, Hnninen,Chris A, Gigi, PG etc. etc etc, wont all get drives next year, also will those teams, Peugeot, Skoda, Fiat, Proton etc currently competing in IRC decide to build a 1.6T (remembering that Max and FIA said that costs of developing a S2K+ (turbo) would be too much whilst the car manufactureres were in melt down. Now all of a sudden we have a WRC platform that will suit Citroen and Ford (i.e the ones without a S2000) whilst forcing those manufactureres currently in IRC to have a new engine if they want to play in WRC. Whats your thoughts and opinions, will the current IRC manufacturers say, lets stick with IRC and let that become the top level or will they want to join the WRC and build a new engined car, or do Citroen and Ford want to keep WRC as their exclusive club?

Wouldn't a supercharger be a better option? It can be added to the NA engines with very little work and is much easier to police?

stay s2ooo,they sound fabulous and are great to watch,

I have seen 1,6T car here on Acores. I must say, also S1600 are more interesting for watching...

What I am trying to gauge is will those IRC teams make the switch to WRC if they have to build a new engine? Personally I am a big fan of the normally aspirated 2 WD Super 1600 class, Renault Clio, Citroen C2, and Suzuki Swift, far more entertaining than a group N cornering on rails and sounding flat. But thats not what I am asking - will the delay to 2011 finally kill off WRC if these teams say f**k it and start giving paid drives to quick drivers whilst WRC continues to be a gentleman driver and Seb formula?

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Originally Posted by PLuto

I have seen 1,6T car here on Acores. I must say, also S1600 are more interesting for watching...

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Pluto, what You saw is a car for some 25 tousand Euro with stock engine (only electronics changed) and 28 mm restrictor. The car was 1/10 of S2000 in price...

I thought the decision to base it on S2000 had already been made? :confused:

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Originally Posted by J4MIE

I thought the decision to base it on S2000 had already been made? :confused:

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Yes - that was correct, smart money (informed gossip) is that in the June World Council meeting it will be ratified that the engine initailly talked about for 2013, (the 1.6T) will be brought in in 2011 - I understand that Ford and Citroen wanted this. Therby meaning that status quo (WRC)remains to 2011 and then the new WRC car becomes a 1.6Litre Turbo engine - all the S2000 transmission and less technology stays, just a brand new engine. If true this means ALL the current IRC teams will need a new car to play in the WRC, wheras Citroen and Ford will have their new car based on the future rules.

I am also in favour of the S2000 pattern!

I was wondering if anybody remembers what the great Colin McRae said about how the top class in WRC should be. I think he said 2.5lt, no turbo, 4WD!

I just cannot imagine how such beasts would sound and look! S2500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wonder if the IRC will go with the 1.6T rule or stick to the 2.0 atmo. Manufacterers with excisting plans (Proton, MG, Peugeot, Peugeot, Fiat, Skoda) do not want to devellop a second rallycar and want value for ther investment and have a platform to show their potential.
Ford and Citroen will be on the 1.6T route and maybe new team with only paper plans (Suzuki?) can follow them.

I too favour the S2000 model. It seems to me that moving to a 1600 turbo charged engine is another development programme that the sport doesn't need.
If any performance gains are desired over S2000 I would have thought allowing the engine out to 2.3 or thereabouts would have done the job without complication.

From what I've seen S2000 looks pretty good.

Seems to me this is just leading to a lot more confusion :(

The FIA incapacity to decide WRC future it’s outrageous!!!

First decision to replace WRC for S2000 based cars was taken at the WMSC of June 2007, and almost 2 years after the new WRC regulations are still drawn in discussion and uncertainty…

MJW is totally right: this delays, which have allowed WRC cars to compete one more year, and the now proposed 1.6T engines*, can only benefit Citroën and Ford but will certainly raise many doubts to a large number of manufactures that were left to believe that S2000 was the way to go!

I just hope that the organizers of IRC will maximize the WRC disorientation, and consider rescaling their competition to a maximum of 8/9 rallies, in order to attract not only factory teams but also top privateers, and turn the series into the leading formula of international rallying.

*someone has pointed that 1.6T engines are now common, but aren’t 2.0 atmo engines much more widespread ?!?

Well, I think that it is good decision to move straight to 1.6T engines rather than doing one or two years with s2000. That would have meant developing two different engines in a short period of time for some tems. And small tbo engines is the way where all car manu's are moving in these days. N/a engines are old tech in small/medium size cars.

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Originally Posted by f-cup

Well, I think that it is good decision to move straight to 1.6T engines rather than doing one or two years with s2000. That would have meant developing two different engines in a short period of time for some tems. And small tbo engines is the way where all car manu's are moving in these days. N/a engines are old tech in small/medium size cars.

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but the s2000 sound great

I think that it is quite pointless to run one more year with WRCar as the top class. Currently both, Citroen and Ford are developing S2000 cars (those cars are meant for national championships as well, that means there is still point to develop those cars).

So. The best solution is to run S2000 in 2010 and if someone is ready then 1600t is also allowed (for testing purposes) but at the same time eligible for manu and driver points. Most probably there wont be very big difference between well developed S2000 and 1600t on development phase. That means, those who have S2000 cars well developed can participate and at the same time those who are developing 1600t cars are able to test their cars in competition mode. And manu points must be calculated not according to those who are factory drivers but the best positioned cars (But manufacturer have to be registered). I think that the current situation is bad enough to introduce something so freaking difficult :-)
Well, It is really hard to express my ideas in words at the moment.. difficult weekend.. most probably :-)

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Originally Posted by bluuford

Most probably there wont be very big difference between well developed S2000 and 1600t on development phase.

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As a spectator I certainly hope that there is a big difference between those two engines. And these should be, if 1.6T has a reasonable restrictor in it. S2000 just is too slow and not what is expected in rallying's top level. And yes, yes, S2000 has a good sound, but It is pointless because the speed does not match the sound even close.

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Originally Posted by f-cup

As a spectator I certainly hope that there is a big difference between those two engines. And these should be, if 1.6T has a reasonable restrictor in it. S2000 just is too slow and not what is expected in rallying's top level. And yes, yes, S2000 has a good sound, but It is pointless because the speed does not match the sound even close.

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I second that. If they allow a decent sized restrictor in the 1.6T the transition to a smaller and somewhat more restricted engine will not be so dramatic. I really applaud if FIA brings this rule forward, instead of running two interim seasons (2011 and 2012) to S2000 engine rule, which from the onset seemed meaningless.

Many of you like the sound of S2000 n/a engine. Is that why you follow rallying - to listen to the cars? As long as the cars sound nice you don`t mind them performing like shopping trolleys? Not my cup of tea, I regret to inform...

I too agree that 1.6T is the right way to go for road car relation and easy high torque, and that it would be stupid to change to 2.0N/A engines and then change again two years down the line again...

But..

I will remain sceptical until we see them for real. It will be useless if they end up as boring to watch, as boring to listen to and as expensive as now. I can just imagine the teams will start whingeing 6 months down the line saying we need this and that to make the cars safe, or make the parts last or whatever and we will be back at square one.

But if they are literally an S2000 car with a 1.6T engine, then they should be pretty good :up:

I too think that a 1.6T would be better than the N/A S2000, (knowledege of the rebuild costs on a S1600 n/a are enough) and it does fit the roadcar trend, and will give better torque. Also agree (to a point) with Iskald that its good that we dont have an interim 2 years. What does worry me is that for 2010 we will have the same two manufacturer teams, that means there are not the opportunities for drivers, and that Seb, Sordo, Mikko, JML is all we have, as the others will need to pay huge sums of money to drive 'de-tuned' customer cars, and if IRC have openings for professional drivers will these go there for the money, and the competition the extra year 2010 will damage WRC further, and as yet no new manufacturer has commited to join, let alone build a 1.6T. Fact is there are Citroen and Ford (4 seats) compared to a fleet of Peugeots, FIATs, and Proton commited to entering IRC events.
I believe WRC should be the pinnacle, I just want more manufactureres and drivers in that and I fear that this could drive these manufacturers to IRC permanently.

1,6 turbo sounds OK but only if it's kept under simple rules,like the old Group A!!!

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Originally Posted by Iskald

I second that. If they allow a decent sized restrictor in the 1.6T the transition to a smaller and somewhat more restricted engine will not be so dramatic. I really applaud if FIA brings this rule forward, instead of running two interim seasons (2011 and 2012) to S2000 engine rule, which from the onset seemed meaningless.

Many of you like the sound of S2000 n/a engine. Is that why you follow rallying - to listen to the cars? As long as the cars sound nice you don`t mind them performing like shopping trolleys? Not my cup of tea, I regret to inform...

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This can of course be discussed from here to eternety, and never agree.

But for me; Yes sounf is part of the experience as a spectator. And a S2000 sounds more like a competiton car than especially GrN and also to a certain extent WRC, due to the low revs.

For group N, they have now alloved almost every part of the car to be modified, so why not give themm a decent exhaust as well. This is also a security issue, since hearing a Gr N car coming can be hard, and with a lot of spectators wandering the SS's thiat could get ugly !

I think is is apauling to see the power Ford and Citroen has with both FIA and ISC, since almost everything they say is being followed. It must be a bit frustrating for the now 10-11 manufacturers that buildt a S2000 to be part of the new WRC, that in tha last possible minute the 1,6 T comes in from the right, and suddenlywill be the thing to have, and not only from 2013, but maybe already from 2011, and that you can compete with the current WRCar until 1,6T takes over - that is a lot of wasted money !

I do not really care if the end result is 2000 NA or 1600T, as long as it meets the requirements, and is so simple and cheap that more manufacturers and privat teams can afford to compete.

If I had done so bad staff work in my job, as FIA has done here, I would have been kicked out and been asked to do damage somewhere else. Planning is everything, it has been said - and the long term planning in this case has not even been there. This has to be improved for FIA as such, it is not only Rally that has a challenge, F1 is not much better off !

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Originally Posted by Sulland

This is also a security issue, since hearing a Gr N car coming can be hard, and with a lot of spectators wandering the SS's thiat could get ugly

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Oh come on,can you seriously say that Group N cars can't be heard?!?

In Slovenia I heard them coming 20 secs before it came,in a normal environment!

Am I seriously the only one who sees Group N as a attractive class???

It's maybe because I grew up in a part of Europe where it's a top class and all the top drivers drive it.

When it's windy or when the gr.N car doesn't use ALS, it's almost impossible to hear it.

When it's windy it's hard to hear anything.I had a really windy rally in which I couldn't hear a Clio S1600 50 meters before

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Originally Posted by urabus-denoS2000

Oh come on,can you seriously say that Group N cars can't be heard?!?

In Slovenia I heard them coming 20 secs before it came,in a normal environment!

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A few years back I am ashamed to say that I did once find myself face down and spread out across the road, with the ground rumbling and I remember that I was wondering what the hell was happening before I looked up......

They are too quiet, it is definitely a safety issue. Especially with some diesel and lpg etc type cars which there have been a few competing in the UK over recent years - and they are a lot quieter still!

You can say what you like about people not meant to be on the stages when there is a stage running, but people will always wander about, there will be accidents, and more noise means greater safety. I've been saying this for years.

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Originally Posted by J4MIE

You can say what you like about people not meant to be on the stages when there is a stage running, but people will always wander about, there will be accidents, and more noise means greater safety. I've been saying this for years.

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That is a fact,the thing that upsets me the most is that people realize the danger only after it happens to someone else.

But I still think Group N is OK.It doesn't have a great sound,far from it,but it isn't that boring.

J4mie's right. Remember Finland 2007 when Pino said there were no more cars coming?

If Group N is the answer to anything, that question should never have been asked. It holds no appeal to me whatsoever.

Prefer s2000 to the 1.6t. S2000 sound fantastic & if they are slower who cares you see the cars for longer.

Half the people on this forum complain that Grp.N is boring....1.6T won't be any better. Grp.N WRX/Evos are already 2L turbo, how exciting will WRC be with 1.6T. Exciting to think that Grp.N cars will possibly be faster then World rally cars....dumb idea.

I personally enjoy the Grp.N cars, well driven they are more exciting then WRC cars and S2000 cars.

Go back to the days of Grp.A.....

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Originally Posted by TKM Jnr

Half the people on this forum complain that Grp.N is boring....1.6T won't be any better. Grp.N WRX/Evos are already 2L turbo, how exciting will WRC be with 1.6T. Exciting to think that Grp.N cars will possibly be faster then World rally cars....dumb idea.

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That would not happen because S2000 cars are already faster than Grp N and have less torque and possibly less power than the 1.6Ts would.

People here should stop thinking just about the power/torque. The current WRCars have bucketloads and they're still terrible to watch, I think the transmissions/chassis are just as important in this respect.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

If Group N is the answer to anything, that question should never have been asked. It holds no appeal to me whatsoever.

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That's another thing as well. When will GroupN return to a proper 'showroom class'? How on earth are S2000 in the same class as them, completely mystifies me. Stop adding weight to the S2000's, please.

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Originally Posted by TKM Jnr

Half the people on this forum complain that Grp.N is boring....1.6T won't be any better. Grp.N WRX/Evos are already 2L turbo, how exciting will WRC be with 1.6T. Exciting to think that Grp.N cars will possibly be faster then World rally cars....dumb idea.

I personally enjoy the Grp.N cars, well driven they are more exciting then WRC cars and S2000 cars.

Go back to the days of Grp.A.....

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Delta S4 was only 1.7 turbo... New WRC may easyly be 1.6 turbo and much faster than gr.N and much more spectacular. And they needn't to be very expensive. It's just a question of rulles.

It will always depend on the restrictor, and what else will get limitations I guess, but I expect FIA to decide a couple of hours before the first rally to give the manufacturers more than enough time........

When you have at least 10 manufacturers in S2000, I would have given that a chance in 2010, to get them into the circus - and if S2000 shows not to be good enough, change to 1600T for 2013. That would give them 2 years to construct a new one. But then the 1600T tech rules need to be ready mid 2010 !

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Originally Posted by urabus-denoS2000

1,6 turbo sounds OK but only if it's kept under simple rules,like the old Group A!!!

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This means that we would go back to the time before 1997 where the manufacturer had to build 2500 4WD turbocharged cars. Wasn’t WRC rules developed so as car manufacturers who didn’t have a 4WD turbocharged car in their program could compete in rally world championship. Today there are only two manufacturers that could compete in group A, Mitsubishi and Subaru.

BTW, WRC cars are based on group A cars.

http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/2589A7BA2955E0A2C12574FF0051D9F4/$FILE/255%20(2009)-15112008.pdf

A ”Word Rally Car” (WR) is a variant of a fixed model of car, previously homologated in group A and must therefore be assembled as a group A vehicle.

If you look at “APPENDIX J TO THE INTERNATIONAL SPORTING CODE” (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regul...tingCodeA.aspx
There are no specific regulations for WRC. WRC use the same regulations as group A.

And another btw. Mitsubishi Evo 9 is not valid in group A.

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Originally Posted by Sulland

It will always depend on the restrictor

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Yes it depends on the restrictor. It’s not the turbo that kills the sound, it’s the dam restrictor. It would be far better with limited boost instead of a restrictor. The old group B cars didn’t have so high boost (as the example Mirek gave) but they had the highest torque around 5000 rpm and best power around 8000 rpm so they where driven with high revs. Even group N cars would sound better with limited boost instead of a restrictor.

I would be pleased to see two alive championships, WRC with 1,6T limited boost / high rev engines and IRC with S2000 cars (that are already high rev nice sounded engines).

Wow ;)

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Originally Posted by atsiotras79

I am also in favour of the S2000 pattern!

I was wondering if anybody remembers what the great Colin McRae said about how the top class in WRC should be. I think he said 2.5lt, no turbo, 4WD!

I just cannot imagine how such beasts would sound and look! S2500!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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That is why he built the R4

The best sounding engine would be flat 6 cylinder N/A engine but that's pretty unrealistic :D