http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFjlgTgrw-4Quote:
Originally Posted by cynisca
No he wasn't.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFjlgTgrw-4Quote:
Originally Posted by cynisca
No he wasn't.
Yeah, now you may have some valid opinions Tamburello (even though, reading the F1 forum, I'd say the "rate of success" is about 1 in 100 :rolleyes: ), but don't you think it's a bit crass to post negative opinions on Senna with a user-name like yours?
I mean, I wouldn't go on a Villeneuve remembrance thread as, say, Terlamenbocht and say he was crap.. :rolleyes:
I think it is valid to post negative opinions of someone in these circumstances. When one remembers Senna, most will also remember the significant controversies in which he was involved, and which were arguably just as big a part of his 'make-up' as a driver as were the positive aspects.
Just because he's been dead 15 years doesn't change the fact that, talented though he undoubtedly was, he was also unsporting and showed a total disregard for the safety of his competitors.
You may wish to remember a less real version of the man, but it doesn't change the fact that he was not an untouchable saint.
Tamburello, NO driver is a saint & it's accepted that that included Ayrton on occasion, but this really isn't the place to be scraping up the select 'off' moments in an otherwise stella career. Sure he was fallable, just like EVERY other driver out there.
I had the fortune to meet Ayrton & spend a few moments with him. It was after a test session at Silverstone when the paddock was empty bar teams packing up. Ayrton was exceptionally engaging, if a little enigmatic.. there was a humbleness about him that seldom was seen infront of the tv screens.
This thread seems to be a place for reflecting on the loss, I'm assuming from your comments so far that you weren't a fan.. well others are, so please in this thread have a modicum of respect for them & indeed for the memory of Ayrton... in other words.. if all you're going to do is be disrespectul.. then stfu.
That is true, and I'm not in any way trying to deny that! There were many instances where Senna's actions were clearly in the wrong. The worst of these, in my opinion, was the Portuguese GP of 1988, where Senna almost pushed Prost to the pit wall, while Prost was trying to pass him on the main straight (and did, eventually).Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
The man was complicated. Not a saint, by any means!
What really ticks me off, though, is blatant bashing, which I think a certain person has clearly been quilty of in this thread.
But when some people remember Senna, they don't just remember the good things about him. As I said above, for me an intrinsic part of Senna's career were the numerous occasions on which he acted in an unacceptable manner, and I see no point in glossing over them.Quote:
Originally Posted by elis
I think it's a shame that being honest - no more - about the dead is now deemed somehow disrespectful or unreasonable.
I agree, but it is a shame to see brazen insults being used.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Well, the phrase "do not speak ill of the dead" is probably as old as mankind. If anything, nowadays it's less followed than at any other time in human history.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
But that's hardly the point, is it. ;)
"An intrinsic part of Senna's career were the numerous occasions on which he acted in an unacceptable manner," you say. That's a correct statement, in my opinion (even though I will always be a great fan of the man). But focussing solely on the bad is just as wrong as stating the man was an infallible hero, I think. No, in fact it's probably worse!
----
Anyway, I hope this thread can continue in a more pleasant manner. ;)
What a ridiculous statement, clearly the positives outweighed the negatives by a large margin, or we wouldn't be memorializing him would we? There is plenty of space dedicated to rating former racers pro and con, I'd think that some of you would be able to tell the difference between that and a memorial thread on the anniversary of his violent death.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
What a great talent, what a joy to watch!
He was undeniably a joy to watch, and absolutely incredible, when he was at his best. But, having watched him on many occasions, I find it impossible to think of his time in F1 without dwelling on the occasions on which he was far from being incredible in a positive sense, and would imagine that many people would think the same way. I don't understand why this view is 'ridiculous'.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintop
A real class act - referring to the post not a deceased Senna dig. Grave dancing and a pronounced lack of self-respect, or a maniacal need to put down any perceived threats to another certain driver's legacy,who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
It's ridiculous if you only apply it to Senna, because you could level much the same judgements at any of the legends of the sport. So What you dwell on must surely be a personal choice, why you should think that would apply to many people is strange. As such it appears to be a personal bias rather than a rational judgement.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I have no bias against any driver. And I don't think the same can be said of Senna as can of any other driver, because while he was clearly far better than most, the incident which sticks in my mind, Suzuka 1990, remains probably the most disgraceful thing I have ever seen in an F1 race — just as that first lap at Donington in 1993 remains one of the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_LIBERATOR
So you think that the questionable actions of other drivers shouldn't be taken into account when judging their career?
RIP Ayrton.
In my opinion the greatest racing driver the world has ever seen.
15 years ago the genious departed.
rest in peace.
Ridiculous that some people can't accept Senna's faults. Dying doesn't change the person they were.
Anyhoo RIP Ayrton and Roland.
Of course I think they should be taken account. Where have I said I don't? However, I don't think it's unreasonable to offer the view that one incident in particular was notably worse than anything else I have ever seen in an F1 race.Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_LIBERATOR
^^^^^^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Don't be obtuse, it's a matter of the appropriateness of bringing up negatives in a memorial forum, not the veracity of the comments. Having been a competitor in races with fatalities and having been a spectator when others have died, perhaps I'm a bit more sentimental about these things, but there are plenty of forums to discuss the negative aspects of drivers, avoid ones marking the anniversaries of their deaths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
In which some people would no doubt still consider it inappropriate to have such a discussion because of the view that one should not 'speak ill of the dead', a rule that is always applied selectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintop
So being selectively insensitive about the dead - as in your case, is appropriate because you think that "this sort of thing goes on". Keep digging, it's getting warmer down there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
What part of Memorial don't you understand?
It's all down to opinion, personally I don't think anyone has said anything that was entirely inappropriate. They merely highlighted a few of the defects in a man that seems to be widely regarded as someone who is perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintop
The first post in this thread set the tone for the thread and this is what it said
Now that's what Tamburello has done and I think if you look at some of the things Senna was involved with in his life he could be quite an ugly person at times even if at other times he was an absolute genius behind the wheel. To gloss over the past is silly, it happens and you need to deal with it as honestly as possible.Quote:
Share your thoughts about him. If your ever met him, feel free to tell us that how he was as a person. For the ones who never met him. Or other things what you want to say about him.
I didn't post the details of the Irvine-incident to celebrate it, for Christ's sake! I posted it 'cause that's one of things that immediately stick to mind when one thinks of Senna. You know, trying to paint a balanced picture..Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Which is not what you have done in this thread.
Never mind, don't let me stop your spiteful hate-fest.
And why should I?Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
You posted details of it, supposedly now to show 'balance', then cried out when I stated that the episode made him look like a xxxx....proving that you don't want any view other than yours...so your 'balance' argument is tosh.
I responded angrily to your comment because it was just mindless abuse! The purpose of which, always, is to provoke.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
My "balance" argument is tosh, is it? Have you read my posts in this thread? Has it really been all full of praise for Senna and nothing else??
You really rub me the wrong way, you do. There are posters in this thread who clearly were not fans, but they keep their opinions respectful, and balanced from their view point.
You just bash.
What's the point?
I am not being selectively insensitive about the dead — it's just that this thread has happened to come up. Were there to be a thread about Giuseppe Farina, I would make reference to the fact that although he was a great driver, he was also deemed to be exceptionally ruthless on track at a time when this wasn't the done thing. Anything wrong with that?Quote:
Originally Posted by tintop
Then use the ignore function, since you evidently can't handle views different to yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
Senseless provocation and insecurity regarding one's own hero, I suspect.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
Memorial thread on the anniversary of a violent death that many of us witnessed, fans or not. Can't simplify it any more for you, sorry if it beyond your capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Yes, of course, because obviously Senna never did anything to be criticised or disliked for.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintop
The insecurity is very much on your side of the fence. Insecurity that anyone could have a view on a controversial character that isn't an air-brushed revisionist one.
Oh, and I'm not quite sure what my 'hero' has to do with it. I care not one jot if you want to criticise Jean-Pierre Jabouille.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Ever been to a funeral?
This isn't a grade school compare and contrast. Tough internet guy that you are and all, what a joke.
Has nothing to do with Sena's imperfections, it's all about respect in the appropriate forum. But go on, perpetuate the tough guy behind a keyboard in the basement persona that you enjoy so much.
What an idiotic statement - try driving a race car at any level before you equate the two sports. And by the way, on the anniversary of the snooker players death, you ought to be respectful as well. I'm quite sure that you haven't reached your majority judging by the base nature of your comments.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Plenty, thanks, although never to one of somebody I thought had a trashy character.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintop
Respect is paid when respect is due....and Senna didn't earn my respect.
This thread is not a funeral parlour, this is a discussion board. If you don't like it, if you really are so insecure that other people hold valid dislikes of a man who could and did act like a thug and a bully, then tough.
Don't talk about "respect" when you are anything but respectful yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintop
Actually I will follow tamburello's advice and use the Ignore Button. That shows what I think about his posts.
What on earth has a comparison of the two sports got to do with this discussion? I am comparing the individuals in question, not the sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by tintop
But if people want threads such as this to just be a parade of people saying 'R.I.P.', one of the most unappealing features of internet forums in the event of the death of someone prominent or subsequent discussion of that person, so be it.
Your newly installed signature speaks volumes about your state of mind. It's quite clear it's in relation to the Senna tribute thread. To address the character of Ayrton to that of Hitler is down right offensive. I think you have issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
Yes you are entitiled to a personal opinion on Senna, but just how many times does it need ramming into your cranium that people here KNOW that at times Ayrton (along with plenty of others) was less than 'Saintly' on track, they also KNOW he was not pepetually nor soley the 'devil' character that you claim.
Had you wanted a sensible grown up discussion on the subject then you wouldn't have addressed it in an insensitive manner that was only ever going to goad a back lash, particulary in an anniversary thread where 9 times out of 10 people came to remember fondly someone who touched their lives in a positive way.
Your posts bring NOTHING new or insightful to the thread, you simply bring a petulant goading attitude with a crass manner, & seemingly a distinct inability to understand or accept any view other than your own.
Most open minded people did during his life, & still do, retain objectivity in understanding that Senna did have 'flaws', few deny that, but they're also capable of seeing & appreciating that those flaws did not totally & soley define him...
I think you have issues with regards to reading and understanding someone's posts. Read his post and reply again when you understand what he's saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by elis
I understand that to bring Hitler into a thread about Senna is enough to tell me all I need to know..Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel