Was Lewis passing Heikki legal?

I think everyone noticed how Heikki moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you McLaren fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

Yes it was illegal and obvious but unprovable.. and as a fan of Formula 1 as a whole rather than any particular team.. I personally dont have a problem with it. He was far quicker than Heikki, would have got past him at some point and so it was in the best interests of the team to perhaps hint that it should happen sooner rather than later and leave it up to Heikki to do what he thought best.

As a team manager would you risk them both wiping out in the process... or if and when he did get past, have reduced his chances of catching both Massa and Piquet?

Also... perhaps not as blatantly.. but do you seriously believe that Ferrari would never/ have never do/done the same in an identical/similar situation?

It was illegal and he has been given a ticket for speeding.

The problem with team orders was more when Ferrari were the only team that had a chance of winning a race, and they still decided that Barrichello's wins should be gifted to Schumacher, apart from that race where they tried to organise a dead heat, which backfired a bit.
There was nothing wrong with what McLaren did as Kovalainen was much much slower (incidentally, why was that? I think people were a little too hard on Massa yesterday) and was allowing his teammate a better chance to win, which he did while Heikki could only finish 5th.
I think that at this stage of the season if Kovalainen was going to win and he let Hamilton past then that might be a bit different though. But I doubt that would happen.

Kovalainen was quite pissed about the teamorder right after the race, he said something like, "I have nothing to comment, because they did not let me race"

I too was very surprised when I watched the footage, the commentators where completely silent. I certainly had thoughts that McLaren could get themselves into trouble if they do this.

Was Lewis's passing of Massa legal?

I think everyone noticed how Massa moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. :D

Well this thread was inevitable... :rolleyes:

I seem to remember either James Allen or Martin Brundle pointing out that Ron Dennis was seen communicating with someone on the pit wall, and then Lewis passed Heikki. They weren't silent.

Remember that in Canada and Turkey 2005, Alonso asked the team for Fisi to move over because he was quicker. NB Canada is before German GP.

Lewis was the quicker the driver so it was right decision. That's where team orders are acceptable.

When team orders are regarded as immoral and unfair is when Jean Todt ordered Rubens to pull over for Michael when Ruben blatantly the quicker driver in Austria 2001 and '02 and deserved the victory with barely a few races into the championship.

Team orders are perfectly acceptable in motorsport but it takes the audaciousness of Ferrari to make a mockery of it all and spoil it for the rest and now team orders is now regarded as a negative.

The whole team orders is illegal thing is just an excuse to throw the book at someone if we have repeat of Austria. When, since 2003, has a team been penalised for team orders?

The sporting regulation in question states "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", which is, let's face it, vague as anything. Lewis was much faster than anyone else on track at that time and he was clearly going to get by Heikki within a couple of laps anyway. Did McLaren suggest to Heikki that it would be a good idea to makeit somewhat easier for Hamilton to pass? Most likely. Did it affect the race result? I highly doubt it.

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39.1 Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.

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Since Lewis won the race and Hekki finished in fifth after not really improving his position after this, one wonders if this constitutes "interference" of the race result.

Even if your opinion was to throw Lewis to the dogs over this one, it's Hekki who submitted his position, and actually proving "interference" per se would be incredibly difficult.

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Originally Posted by cos

The sporting regulation in question states "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", which is, let's face it, vague as anything. Lewis was much faster than anyone else on track at that time and he was clearly going to get by Heikki within a couple of laps anyway. Did McLaren suggest to Heikki that it would be a good idea to makeit somewhat easier for Hamilton to pass? Most likely. Did it affect the race result? I highly doubt it.

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This nobody cant say for sure, what ever could have happened, to pass someone is always a risk, but i think its good that Heikki let him pass until he has the name under the new contract, if you start to give positions just like that you end up like Barricello.

The "No team orders" rule was introduced to avoid bringing the sport into disrepute. I feel it has somewhat backfired :mark:

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Well this thread was inevitable... :rolleyes:

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Yes it was, and with good reason.

How much crap did Ferrari get for using perfectly legal team orders in the early part of this century? The amount of rubbish thrown about on this forum alone was staggering. McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?

I thought McLaren only used yeam orders when one driver was mathematically out of contention? Unless my maths are screwy Kovalainen is still in contention is he not? So McLaren can break their own golden rule and it's OK because McLaren are a "true" racing team unlike Ferrari who only care about winning to the detriment of the sport. :rolleyes:

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with McLaren using team orders. It's what's going to win them the WDC. Ferrari, assuming they get the car quick enough again, will be splitting points between two drivers. McLaren won't.

My problem is with the media and the fans on the forum who were so virulent in their condemnation of Ferrari being so quiet when McLaren do the same thing. If team orders are so bad then it doesn't matter what colour the cars are, does it?

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

Yes it was, and with good reason.

How much crap did Ferrari get for using perfectly legal team orders in the early part of this century? The amount of rubbish thrown about on this forum alone was staggering. McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?

I thought McLaren only used yeam orders when one driver was mathematically out of contention? Unless my maths are screwy Kovalainen is still in contention is he not? So McLaren can break their own golden rule and it's OK because McLaren are a "true" racing team unlike Ferrari who only care about winning to the detriment of the sport. :rolleyes:

For the record, I have absolutely no problem with McLaren using team orders. It's what's going to win them the WDC. Ferrari, assuming they get the car quick enough again, will be splitting points between two drivers. McLaren won't.

My problem is with the media and the fans on the forum who were so virulent in their condemnation of Ferrari being so quiet when McLaren do the same thing. If team orders are so bad then it doesn't matter what colour the cars are, does it?

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I'm not being quite...BUT, Kova's was not in contention for a race win at all. Ferrari this year may well have shot themselves in the foot by having two drivers competing for the world title. Something they did not have in the Schumi era. In saying this, there is still along way to go in this championship and we could well see Massa and Raikonen fighting right down to the last race to win the title. For me, I like Ferrari even more this season as they seem to be, along with BMW, the teams with two drivers that are challenging hard for the championship. Thats better for the sport in my opinion.

Comparing this to the Ferrari incident is absolutely ridiculous. That call on Ruben's had more to do with padding ShuMi's run at the WDC than the constructors points.

Lewis was fortunate it was Hiekki and not a team mate like 'unibrow' whom seldom acts in the best interest of the team or stablemates who may be clearly faster.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

McLaren use a now illegal team order and nothing. Why is that?

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Is it actually illegal? Can you actually prove that the results of the race were "interfered" with?

Would it have been impossible for Lewis to pass Hekki anyway considering that he then went on the pass both Massa and Piquet? What of the possibility that Heikki was told that Lewis was coming through and moved over anyway? Are we even actually sure that the "team order" exists? Was Heikki deliberately told to move over?

Even if McLaren did order Hekki to move out of the way, to prove such an allegation would require a scrutineering of the radio transmissions, which I'm pretty sure at this moment in time is not happening.

At one stage Lewis was in the lead; 24 seconds ahead of his nearest rival. It just might be possible that he was the best out there on the day... but to admit that... surely not!

Had Kovi followed Lewis after the move and been able to overtake both Massa and Junior, then I would join the legion of forumers in condemning Ron Dennis's actions. However, Kovi had reached the limit of his pace and the only achievement he could have made was to hinder Lewis's chances to win the race.

McLaren made a gamble when they did not refuel Lewis during the SC period. They had fuel for several more laps, meaning that Lewis's final stint on soft tyres would have been a short one, enabling him to be quicker. This worked and McLaren won the race.

Kovi's contribution to the results was a fourth, and whether he was given any team orders or not, he would have ended up coming fourth anyway. The only one who could have suffered was Lewis had he been forced to follow Kovi for several laps trying to pass him as he would have buggered his tyres through graining.

So there you have it.

I love to see the McLAren fans swinging and flip flopping one way and the other too as long as it is convenient for you. All your moralistic and ethical threads about how important it is for a driver to pass his own team mate out of pure sportmanship and fairness went strait into the garbage can. I have no idea how you can actually sit down at your computer and seroiusly write your hypocritical comments TOTALLY forgetting that just a couple of years ago you were just stating the opposite. I am frankly appaled. I have shown my ability, in one of my most recent threads - Ferrrai's stupidity- to call things for what they are. If Ferrrari does something stupid, I have no problem in critizing it. It they cheated I am the first denouncing my team and their wrong doing. Here, except for a couple of guys, I see a fanatical defence of the silver (only recently) bullets about their stealing, their bending of the rules (including Heikki and his refueling issue). Is it so hard for you guys TO HAVE A A STANDARD AND STICK TO IT? As far as your crediblity goes, you really loosing lots of it.
PS Here you find what RD said about it. It's just incredible the nerve he has. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...21102741.shtml

lets not forget monaco last year HOW lewis checked the $###s
arfter not being allowed to pass alonso.

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

I love to see the McLAren fans swinging and flip flopping one way and the other too as long as it is convenient for you. All your moralistic and ethical threads about how important it is for a driver to pass his own team mate out of pure sportmanship and fairness went strait into the garbage can. I have no idea how you can actually sit down at your computer and seroiusly write your hypocritical comments TOTALLY forgetting that just a couple of years ago you were just stating the opposite. I am frankly appaled. I have shown my ability, in one of my most recent threads - Ferrrai's stupidity- to call things for what they are. If Ferrrari does something stupid, I have no problem in critizing it. It they cheated I am the first denouncing my team and their wrong doing. Here, except for a couple of guys, I see a fanatical defence of the silver (only recently) bullets about their stealing, their bending of the rules (including Heikki and his refueling issue). Is it so hard for you guys TO HAVE A A STANDARD AND STICK TO IT? As far as your crediblity goes, you really loosing lots of it.
PS Here you find what RD said about it. It's just incredible the nerve he has. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...21102741.shtml

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I think you are confusing dates (I am thinking Austria 02) and the situation where Rubens was ordered to let SchM past to win when he did so at the last corner, and when SchM then gave the trophy to Rubens.

The two situations are totally different.

This time Kovi did not ultimately lose a single position at all.

I don't want to keep dredging up old rants which, as I have explained in ioan's thread, serves no useful purpose than to create a feel bad atmosphere in this forum.

I couldn't care less if the cars were silver or Red. Had Kimi, in a slower car, been asked to pull over in similar circumstances for Massa at Silverstone, I could live with it also. But if Kimi had been told to pull over in the last lap to let Massa past to win, then we would have a totally different situation and I am willing to bet the forum would light up with abuse from 98% of the members.

I hope this clarifies things for you. I can't make it clearer than that if yrstillhere.

How does this incident have anything to do with team orders? How in the world can stupid fanboys think this is an example of illegal team orders by McLaren? (ooo wait, cuz they are stupid fanboys.) Hamiliton catches Heikki, Heikki sportingly lets him by, knowing he doesn't have comparable speed, then Hamilton proceeds to drive off into the distance, overtake the next 2 cars, and win the race. I am really not seeing the problem.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I think you are confusing dates (I am thinking Austria 02) and the situation where Rubens was ordered to let SchM past to win when he did so at the last corner, and when SchM then gave the trophy to Rubens.

The two situations are totally different.

This time Kovi did not ultimately lose a single position at all.

I don't want to keep dredging up old rants which, as I have explained in ioan's thread, serves no useful purpose than to create a feel bad atmosphere in this forum.

I couldn't care less if the cars were silver or Red. Had Kimi, in a slower car, been asked to pull over in similar circumstances for Massa at Silverstone, I could live with it also. But if Kimi had been told to pull over in the last lap to let Massa past to win, then we would have a totally different situation and I am willing to bet the forum would light up with abuse from 98% of the members.

I hope this clarifies things for you. I can't make it clearer than that if yrstillhere.

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Unfortunately the rules are not as detailed as your descrition is. They don't specifically mention exactely what lap the team order can be given or in what circumstance, if it's sunny or rainy. They simply state that team orders have no room in F1. Period. Clear and simple for everybody to follow.There is no free interpretation for obvious reason. What about we let the team mate slow down on the penultime lap? Is it ok too? Please call it for what it is: McLAren fans don't care how McLaren win, as long as they win. Obviously if anybody else were to do the same they should be punished, banned, whatever. And no, you did not made clearer for me since what you are stating only works for you. Let me make it clear for you: you need to have a standard and stick to it.

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Originally Posted by e2mtt

Hamiliton catches Heikki, Heikki sportingly lets him by, knowing he doesn't have comparable speed, then Hamilton proceeds to drive off into the distance, overtake the next 2 cars, and win the race. I am really not seeing the problem.

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http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...a/Applause.gif

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

They simply state that team orders have no room in F1. Period.

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That's is not what the rules state concerning team orders, semicolon!!

Get your facts straight before you launch another rant, please!! :rolleyes:

I'll state what I said when the FIA introduced their so called rule against team orders. It is none of their business how a team conducts their race. I know they put a rule in place but it is a bunch of hogwash.
There have been team orders since there have been teams. Neubauer would have told the FIA where to go in a hurry.
There will continue to be team orders, they just have to disguise them. All teams have and will use them if they feel there is a good reason to do so. Note ALL.
Now the drivers do not always pay attention but they usually are looking for a new team by the next season.

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Originally Posted by e2mtt

How does this incident have anything to do with team orders? How in the world can stupid fanboys think this is an example of illegal team orders by McLaren? (ooo wait, cuz they are stupid fanboys.) Hamiliton catches Heikki, Heikki sportingly lets him by, knowing he doesn't have comparable speed, then Hamilton proceeds to drive off into the distance, overtake the next 2 cars, and win the race. I am really not seeing the problem.

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Excellent post!

Since some of the fanboys here seem to have proof that McLaren used team orders, wonder why they don't forward that information to the FIA? And since Heikki was apparently so fast... wonder why he didn't come in 2nd? :rolleyes:

Perhaps because he came in to pitstop too often. ;)

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Originally Posted by e2mtt

How does this incident have anything to do with team orders? How in the world can stupid fanboys think this is an example of illegal team orders by McLaren? (ooo wait, cuz they are stupid fanboys.) Hamiliton catches Heikki, Heikki sportingly lets him by, knowing he doesn't have comparable speed, then Hamilton proceeds to drive off into the distance, overtake the next 2 cars, and win the race. I am really not seeing the problem.

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Couldn't agree more.

If anyone here is so ignorant of why the team orders rule was brought in, then no amount of reasoning will ever change their mind.

Hekki had no answer for Lewis on Sunday just as Massa and Jnr didn't.

He would have held up his team mate, compromising Lewis's race
In doing so, he would have slowed himself down compromising his race
There was a chance of a team mate crash if they battled the position

He made a judgement call and you have to say, it was the right one. Had Hekki followed Lewis, taken Massa and Jnr finishing in 2nd, then there would be NO WAY he should have let him past but there was no chance of that.

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

...we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did.

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1) We don't know it was a team order. We don't know Heikki was told to move over. Assumptions are being made from tv pictures whereas the FIA have access to all the team radio communications.

2) The 2008 FIA Sporting Regs Article 39.1 says: "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited." Given that Heikki's fastest lap was almost 0.5s slower than Hamilton, and that after the pass he made no progress up the leader board, unlike Hamilton, I can't see how the race result was interferred with.

So no team orders and no interference IMHO.

Incidentally, one of the problems is how deliberately vague the rule is. Every action by every team and every driver at every race "interferes with the race result" in some way or another :p

Don't think it is good for the sport team orders, as Schumi and Barrichello proved in Austria, however Hieki needs to get his act together. If Lewis is lapping that much faster than him in the race then something is wrong with Hieki. Hieki does well in practise and qualy, but falls asleep in the race, a bit like Trulli used to fall off.

Didn't think the overtake was that bad, no worse than the one at Silverstone two weeks ago, Where Hieki clearly breaked early for the turn again.

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

I think everyone noticed how Heikki moved over and let Lewis get by fairly easily. I also noticed how NOBODY was horrified and did not screem bloody murder about this episod. I mean, we all know that that was team order. Heikki was told to move over and let Lewis get by and he did. The media has not said anything about it. And yes there was an embarassing silence when the commentators saw that taking place and then conveniently said nothing. Are you McLaren fans really at peace with yourselves and with your hypocritical interest in F1?

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Yes - this time it was ok. I think Heikki did it because he hadn't any chance to keep Lewis behind him anyway.

BUT - why he was that much slower is difficult to understand? I don't believe he should be over one second behind Lewis in normal case.

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Originally Posted by jas123f1

Yes - this time it was ok. I think Heikki did it because he hadn't any chance to keep Lewis behind him anyway.

BUT - why he was that much slower is difficult to understand? I don't believe he should be over one second behind Lewis in normal case.

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Cue the accusations of Hekki being handicapped so Lewis looks good :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I think you are confusing dates (I am thinking Austria 02) and the situation where Rubens was ordered to let SchM past to win when he did so at the last corner, and when SchM then gave the trophy to Rubens.

The two situations are totally different.

This time Kovi did not ultimately lose a single position at all.

I don't want to keep dredging up old rants which, as I have explained in ioan's thread, serves no useful purpose than to create a feel bad atmosphere in this forum.

I couldn't care less if the cars were silver or Red. Had Kimi, in a slower car, been asked to pull over in similar circumstances for Massa at Silverstone, I could live with it also. But if Kimi had been told to pull over in the last lap to let Massa past to win, then we would have a totally different situation and I am willing to bet the forum would light up with abuse from 98% of the members.

I hope this clarifies things for you. I can't make it clearer than that if yrstillhere.

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Right on the money.

The team order rule was brought in to avoid situations like Austria 2002 where it'd make F1 look, I suppose, farcical. It's unwritten law that this rule is more of a recommendation, rather than a law set in concrete.

Honestly I have nothing against team orders.
It's just the double measures used around here by the fans of team "integrity" that make me puke.

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Originally Posted by Nikki Katz

The problem with team orders was more when Ferrari were the only team that had a chance of winning a race, and they still decided that Barrichello's wins should be gifted to Schumacher, apart from that race where they tried to organise a dead heat, which backfired a bit.

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There was only one win taken away from Rubens, and he got at least one gifted to him by MS later on. So let's not exaggerate.

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Originally Posted by Tomi

Kovalainen was quite pissed about the teamorder right after the race, he said something like, "I have nothing to comment, because they did not let me race"

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He must be feeling bad having to let Lewis by in 2 consecutive races. But after all he is Ron's reconstructed 2nd hand driver, without McLaren in his blood!

I loved the images with Ron "Integrity" pushing the radio buttons just moments before it all happened!
It was priceless! :D

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Originally Posted by cos

The sporting regulation in question states "Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited", which is, let's face it, vague as anything. Lewis was much faster than anyone else on track at that time and he was clearly going to get by Heikki within a couple of laps anyway. Did McLaren suggest to Heikki that it would be a good idea to makeit somewhat easier for Hamilton to pass? Most likely. Did it affect the race result? I highly doubt it.

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What if Hamilton couldn't manage to pass Heiki on a fair basis? Isn't it that the results of the race were changed by team orders?

You see, I believe they were right to ask Heiki to move over in order to achieve the best possible result for the team.
What bothers me is how some people go to extreme lengths trying to prove it wasn't illegal given that there are rules that state otherwise!

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Well this thread was inevitable... :rolleyes:

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Are you disgusted?
Well so were we, Ferrari fans, over the endless, relentless and never proved calls for cheating and so on from fans of McLaren and Williams back in the day.

Live by the sword, die by the sword!

PS: At least we got proof for the accusations we bring up! :D