http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68673
So, the FIA cannot police it. Anyone ever hear of TPMS on road cars.....
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68673
So, the FIA cannot police it. Anyone ever hear of TPMS on road cars.....
There was no need for a ban anyway. Stupid legislation that wasn't required in the first place.
If they want warmers, let them have them
The comment that lap times were too adversley affected by the lack of pre warming the tyres............WTF!!!! That was the whole point, to introduce more passing, and the skill of the driver who coped best on cold tyres like Juan Pablo in the CART days of his career, cold tyres is what won him the champonship because he could drive on them. Considering this F1 is menat to be the pinnacle of motorsport, the rules seem to be there to baby sit them.
Sorry I think allowing tyre warmers is a mistake. Make the drivers work harder controlling there cars. Drivers concerned over crashing?????? Thats why you slow down, if you have no confidence. It owuld have rewarded the brave.
The tyre warmer should be the driver, not a blanket, IMHO.
I have no problem with warmers if the teams want to use them. The FIA said they should be banned for cost saving reasons but teams can still use them in testing so they would buy them anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
The tyre pressure issue is just stupid. Teams should run the tyres at whatever pressure they deem best. If it's too low, they will not finish. Simple.
Personally, I think that there will be a marked increase in 1st corner incidents which doesn't make sense to me so I say let them use warmers.
Drivers get a warm up lap. If that isn't good enough for them, then they will make a bad start. At the end of the day the track in Canada was not ideal, but every driver had to deal with it, so it was fair.
Clearly Ferrari have fore seen a disadvantage for themselves and the fia has changed the rules to suit. (that last line is for Ioan)
Maybe someone will invent a self inflating tyre valve that will inflate the tyre to the required pressure. I think I'll get out my pencil and paper and go into inventive mode. ;)
As much as I agree the safety aspect is a bit worrying. A drivers job is to drive on the limit but an under-inflated tyre and insufficiently heated can be a dangerous mixture.Quote:
Originally Posted by MAX_THRUST
Look at the 2006 Australian GP. Schumi was couldn't get his tyres up to temperature, pushed too hard and understeered off into the the wall on the front stretch (much to the chagrin of JYS :rolleyes :)
I don't think the issue is with monitoring tyre pressure. In fact they already do. The issue is more preventing the tyre dropping below the minimum safe level.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Actually, I think the issue is Bridgestone want to ensure teams don't operate under the specified limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH
Bridgestone need to fit a valve cap that has a little red thingy in the centre that will only stay popped out if the minimum suggested pressure is present in the tire .
I apologise in advance if I'm being too technical , but "little red thingy" is what they are called .
Bag's I'm not sure if you are being serious or not, but it seems to me that if the pressureQuote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
is adjusted to be at the bare minimum when at rest with tires up to temp.
What happens when the car uses a curb and the tire is off the ground?
Wouldn’t that register as lower pressure, thus activating the little "thingy" :p :
Actually I don't care if they use warmers or not!
Sorta like the little red thingy that my wife uses to indicate when the turkey is done.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
(...and still manages to overcook the damn bird :rolleyes: )
;) Woot Woot... Baggie,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
"little red thingy" sounds like a sale promotion item from
Victoria's Secrets.
:dozey: And to think,
This used to be a Family Site...
before the release of Max's home movies.
:dozey: These Big Boys should be able to drive without "tire warmers".
Every other series that I'm aware of... gets along without them.
Banning tire warmers gives drivers a choice between two unsafe courses of action: A. Zigzag at the start - yikes! B. Drive the first couple of laps on dangerously slippery tires.
It also means that cars coming back onto the track after long pit stops will either be driven at dangeousouly high speeds, or be unsafely out-of-sync with the flow of traffic.
A car on cold tires - especially cold slicks - behaves very unpredictably. A car on warm tires is a completely different animal than the same car on cold tires.
It makes no sense to throw away such cheap safety devices.
Ddms
Taz , it's all about a minimum pressure .Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
If the tire is at rest , unmounted , it would be at it's minimum pressure .
If there were no tire warmers , it would be easy to see the valve's thingy , and there would be no doubt about starting pressure being below recommended low limits .
If they went one farther , and stuck an LED light in the thingy , we might all be able to see it , even on track , spinning , and recognise an issue with a tire going down for any given racer . It would sure play well at night races .
;) Using Nitrogen or a combo of Nitrogen & CO2 (Ferrari's cocktail) when inflating the tires,
reduces the increase in pressure as tires warm-up.
Seems as though the Bridgestone's could be inflated at the recomended mininium psi... without over pressurizing the tires when warm.
DAS monitors tire pressure... so it should be easy to determine if tires are under-inflated.
Using air to inflate tires would cause problems as air contains moisture. The pressure could increase ~10/12 psi...
Even more if the tire starts out under-inflated.
OK!! How about a special tyre valve that starts to pump air into the tyre with each bump on the tyre if the pressure is below a set value? So the tyre automatically inflates until the set pressure is reached. Then when it heats up, and the pressure increases, the valve let's the air out until the pre-set pressure is restored in the tyre.
Great Idea????
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valve Bounce
;) There is a tire valve that
"BLEEDS OFF PRESSURE" as the tires warm up.
Theory is that you could start on cold tires at proper inflation pressure and the valve would bleed off any additional pressure generated as the tires warm up.
As far as I know... no one is using these valves in racing... seems that the bleed off valve is unreliable.
As far as I can tell, this special "Nitrogen/Co2" cocktail is standard composition of our atmosphere:Quote:
Originally Posted by trumperZ06
http://www.kidsgeo.com/images/gases-in-atemosphere.jpg
Compressors are fitted with standard filters that take moisture out the air, anyway. So it seems to me that the composition of the air in a tyre is way over hyped. What do they do that's so special to the air?
Let's see how many of those who were complaining that Kimi was allowed to go around with a flapping exhaust pipe (all in the name of safety) are now advocating the removal of tire warmers creating thus the possibility of having 20 unpredictable cars on the track, running at speeds over 300kph!
Hypocrites! :rolleyes:
Depends on the concentration of each gas! You agree that the atmosphere doesn't contain 50% N and 50% CO2, at least not yet?!Quote:
Originally Posted by gravity
And you shouldn't forget that it also contains 21% O2!
So it seems to me that you were way out of order suggesting that they use "standard composition of our atmosphere". :p :
Easy answer--have the FIA take over completely--BAN Tire pressure guages completely from being in possession of the teams....let the FIA pump a standard mixture into everyone's tires, eliminate soft and hard compounds ( when everyone is running the same tires, why hard and soft......oh well)
And while they are at it, put the standard tire on a standard rim, on a standard wheel, and then dole them out at random to be used at random by the teams.....and make one standard compound to be used all year at all tracks....and make all wings standard, so at each race you receive the wings all made and preset by the FIA......and no more pit crew advantage, they are employees of the FIA, chosen at random for each race and given their assignment to which team after the race starts...and the same for engines, one manufacturere for all, with each race engine to be handed out right before the race at random from the FIA........and no more individual team sponsors, all will be paying thier money to FIA, with every team getting an equal share, and decals will be assigned at random to each car......and the worse the team does, the more more money to that team will be given as "race winnings"
and FINALLY, yes, FINALLY to make the playing field completely level for all competitors, all tracks wil be re-built to make them perfectly flat with no more than one inch change in elevation per 500 meters
and to ensure no more advantage to anyone...to keep it fair and square.......all have to drink ole uncle markabilly's special brew of kool aid.....so while the field may be level, those who are properly kooled, will never notice :beer:
The difference is that it a degree of skill to control a car on cold tires, similar to TC. Its more of bringing back driver skill into F1, IMO. More onus on the driver to create his own luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Whereas a flapping, exposed, upright exhaust which suddenly snaps and flies into the air and then...... well, it's divine intervention, IMHO.
Motorsport is dangerous but IMHO drivers should take more of the risks not track personnel and spectators.
And a car that goes of at high speed is more of a danger for everyone than an exhaust pipe the size (and weight) of a 1/2 liter empty beer can.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Not sure what the debate here is about. Debris from a race car at speed is dangerous without question. Several deaths at champ car races and IRL races have resulted from debris hitting spectators but usually as the result of accidents between cars. In 1999, three died at an IRL race, and at some time else, three more died at the Michigan track.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
At Indy, a wheel came off and was hit by another race car, and sent into the grandstands, killing one spectator.
During JV's first year in F1, when he was challenging Hill at Japan GP, he had a wheel come off and go into the specator area. A small change, and the
wheel could have caused death and serious injury to spectators.
Okay, so it was not a wheel, but that changes nothing. I remember one year when a mirror came off an Indy car at Indy (I think Stephan Johnson was involved) and another car ran over it, burst a tire and (maybe) wrecked
If the pipe had come loose at the right time and place, it could easily have resulted in a serious injuries to a driver (if he ran over it and lost control, or a tire burst), to track workers and spectators if it flew off at the right moment into a crowd or other stuff flying off from an accident resulting from another car hitting it.
Otherwise if it so safe, they just need to leave debris laying around on the the track for everyone to run over and not be bothering with safety cars and such.
The only reason to not make the team remove or fix it would be if the fia thought that while loose, they were absolutely certain it was not going to come off, PERIOD. The question should not be whether it was likely to come off and cause serious injury.
Well, we all know that it did come off......................and the situation with Kimi when at Mac, with the tire bouncing all over from the trie problem, is no different
The only absolute determinative factor for tire warmers and mandates on air pressure should be safety with adequate precautions and rules in place. And I do not know whether those questions have been adequately answered and the rules developed as of yet.
After all, it is low tire pressure and cold tires resulting in the car bottoming that is alleged to have caused Senna's death. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat its mistakes.
The difference (one of many) is that at the start of the race, it would be the same for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Other series seem to manage 'sans' warmers, why not F1?
I never posted the above quote! :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
You should learn to quote properly. :rolleyes:
What he implied in that post was that other series have no problems with the lack of tyre warmers, so why should there be more crashes, and hence, be more dangerous than having some metal tube flapping in the breeze?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
See ioan - others understand what is being postulated. Is it just you that has the issue working it out? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
I could care less about what other understand from your bad quoting, next time quote me properly or don't do it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
Was that clear enough?! :mad:
Now now, calm down. Don't get yer kecks all knotted up! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
One thing that I wouldn't do on a board is intentionally misquoting other members, so I do not appreciate when other do that to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SGWilko
What might seem like fun to you might be offensive for others.
Give over already. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
How did drivers manage before tyre warmers arrived?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Your interpretation of my comments suggest that you do not speak English as a first language. My first impression was that it might be my English that is not up to scratch, but it seems to me that everyone else understands what I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Where did I suggest that they use the standard composition of our atmosphere? Trumper suggested Ferrari's cocktail of gasses used in their tyres were a combination of N & CO2. You seem to think it's a 50% split of the two?
I thought there might be some confusion regarding Trumper's post (hence quoting his post in my reply), where CO2 & N was suggested as the 'cocktail' of gasses. My reply was pointing out that it was very similar to the natural state of gasses in our atmosphere.
Understanding that the composition of the gasses used in a racing car are very different, I asked what the difference may be (what cocktail of gasses are really used). I'm not trying to look like a technical-geek/smart arse, and since nobody else seemed to have picked up on the detail, I thought I could share some info that I had found (which is contrary to CO2 and N being used).
Your comment confirmed my impression that its accepted that the composition of gasses used in racing tyres are CO2 and N (in your case 50%N and 50% Co2).
I just laugh at you telling me not to forget that the composition of our atmosphere is 21% oxygen! That's right! Put me in my place!
This is what I've found regarding the composition of gasses...
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...the-f2007.htmlQuote:
In fact, the gas used by Ferrari is a hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-based mixture designed specifically for use in racecar tyres, though not dissimilar in composition to gasses used in refrigerators, which are comprised entirely of hydrogen, carbon and fluorine. A team headed by Andrea Seghezzi of Monza, Italy, in association with Gruppo Sapio developed the gas and subjected it to extensive track testing.
It was discovered that the HFCs were able to effectively conduct the heat generated during the rotation of the tyre to the wheel rim at a more or less constant pressure. The wheel rim then acts as a radiator, exchanging the heat with the outside air, maintaining a lower internal temperature and preventing it from overheating. This is particularly effective on aluminum or magnesium wheels.
So it seems to me that you were way out of order suggesting that they use "50% CO2 and 50%" :p
Don't play the language coin with me will ya!Quote:
Originally Posted by gravity
Just in case you forgot, here's what you posted earlier:
I hope you understand what standard means. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by gravity
Your English is so-so, and your knowledge about the Earth's atmosphere is even poorer.
Your interpretation of my comments suggest that you do not speak English as a first language. My first impression was that it might be my English that is not up to scratch, but it seems to me that everyone else understands what I'm saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Where did I suggest that they use the standard composition of our atmosphere? Trumper suggested Ferrari's cocktail of gasses used in their tyres were a combination of N & CO2. You seem to think it's a 50% split of the two?
I thought there might be some confusion regarding Trumper's post (hence quoting his post in my reply), where CO2 & N was suggested as the 'cocktail' of gasses. My reply was pointing out that it was very similar to the natural state of gasses in our atmosphere.
Understanding that the composition of the gasses used in a racing car are very different, I asked what the difference may be (what cocktail of gasses are really used). I'm not trying to look like a technical-geek/smart arse, and since nobody else seemed to have picked up on the detail, I thought I could share some info that I had found (which is contrary to CO2 and N being used).
Your comment confirmed my impression that its accepted that the composition of gasses used in racing tyres are CO2 and N (in your case 50%N and 50% Co2).
I just laugh at you telling me not to forget that the composition of our atmosphere is 21% oxygen! That's right! Put me in my place!
This is what I've found regarding the composition of gasses...
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/a...the-f2007.htmlQuote:
In fact, the gas used by Ferrari is a hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-based mixture designed specifically for use in racecar tyres, though not dissimilar in composition to gasses used in refrigerators, which are comprised entirely of hydrogen, carbon and fluorine. A team headed by Andrea Seghezzi of Monza, Italy, in association with Gruppo Sapio developed the gas and subjected it to extensive track testing.
It was discovered that the HFCs were able to effectively conduct the heat generated during the rotation of the tyre to the wheel rim at a more or less constant pressure. The wheel rim then acts as a radiator, exchanging the heat with the outside air, maintaining a lower internal temperature and preventing it from overheating. This is particularly effective on aluminum or magnesium wheels.
So it seems to me that you were way out of order suggesting that I said that they use "standard composition of our atmosphere"
And it seems to me that you were way out of order suggesting that they use "50% CO2 and 50%"
*edit
took all the laughing smileys out as it might have offended