guns and their cost in lives and

to society as a whole.

I know this is a very touchy subject. I have dealt with the effects of guns accidentally discharged either killing or injuring (wounding) others.

I am not advocating anything other than the professional view that I believe that countries such as the US do not have laws strict enough to curb the violence inflicted by these weapons.

That one can own a mini arsenal is ludicrous. Why does anyone need 12 guns or 20 guns? Why does anyone need assault rifles? Why on earth can a person own a .50 caliber rifle capable of causing massive damage to any structure be it a vehicle (read airplane) or individuals.

After the Virginia Tech shooting some lawmakers in the US were advocating having students carry weapons on campus.

That has got to be the most idiotic proposal I have heard in many years.

Just the mere fact that these kids have guns is sad , but that they are able to carry them at school at the tender age of 18+.

Professionally, people of that age are capable of rash decision making along with being under very high levels of stress.

Currently, the US is behind Brazil where gun violence is concerned. What is the reason. I have my own and would like an input.

I understand this is a very touchy subject so let's try to keep it civil. (me too)

Finally this is from the WHO,A recent study. I have a more recent one too that states that the US is last amongst the first world countries where violence and gun crime is a major concern. It is also as mentioned earlier behind a developing country. (World Health Organization, 2006) has pointed to the possibility of preventing disease by controlling environmental factors; it has been estimated that more than 20% of total suicides in North America and Europe can be attributed to environmental factors, one of which is access to firearms.

Second Amendment.

'Nuff said.

Thread closed.







:rolleyes:

A very touchy subject. An avid hunter will often have several rifles for different game plus a shotgun or two.
Today there are also quite a few black powder enthusiasts and they tend to be large caliber.
I do agree there really is no need for assault type weapons in the general publics' hands.
Strangely enough in a few US States where the carrying of handguns, even concealed, has relatively recently been allowed, gun crime has decreased.
Canada has very strict handgun laws and yet we have a big problem in the major cities with the gangbangers. Most of them have trouble hitting what they are shooting at but the innocent get hit. It is possible to rent a handgun for the gang members and even rent the ammo. If you fire the gun then you pay for the ammo as well as the rental fee.
Accuracy with a handgun is difficult and yes I have handled them.
I grew up around guns, was shooting from about 9 and have a very healthy respect for guns. As far as I am concerned any gun I handle is loaded until I personally check it.
My family on my dad's side were all crack shots as was my mother. Her brother was about the most dangerous person with a gun I ever saw and he had been a Mountie!
I sure do not have an answer except stiff sentences for gun crimes. It will not stop the shooting but at least the ones in the slammer aren't shooting.

glauistean Are you afraid to come over based on the fact you may get shot??

So were the Japanese
So will be any future attackers
Guns equal the playing field

One of the biggest problems we have is "Gun Laws" created by total idiots. Look at the major cities and states with strict gun laws. Only the criminals have guns - because the are CRIMINALS. Look at Mexico is gun control working??

If you remove violent criminals from society permanently then you begin to solve the problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starter

... The number of civilians killed by guns is minute compared to the number killed in traffic accidents. A reasonable conclusion would be that we should ban cars immediately as that would have a far greater impact in reducing death and injury than banning guns. ...

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The flip side...

Ownership of a personal vehicle requires registration to acknolwedge responsibility for a device that has the potential to cause harm to others.

Why is it difficult to accept similar control for firearms? :mark:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by schmenke

The flip side...

Ownership of a personal vehicle requires registration to acknolwedge responsibility for a device that has the potential to cause harm to others.

Why is it difficult to accept similar control for firearms? :mark:

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Schmenke, that is all well and good...registration in my mind would matter if people had plates hanging off the guns so people could see the plate when someone pulled a gun and report the number. The fact is though, guns don't have license plates. Registaring a gun just says you own it. It doesn't stop you from misusing it, it doesn't stop you from using it in commisission of a crime, and there is no point to registaring it other than to announce to the cop coming to your door that you own a gun. Guess what, the cops approach your door often as if you are armed anyhow, regardless.

I would be for the registration of weapons if I thought it would actually do something constructive. The problem is, it hasn't. I am all for background checks, I am all for responsible gun owners storing and locking their guns safely. The reality of it all is though that the gun registry here in Canada really didn't do a damn thing....

In the US, they have very liberal laws on gun ownership, and the most violent and trigger happy of cities also happen to be the cities where the politicians have brought in all sorts of gun control measures. Washington led the US in murders for a lot of years and it was illegal to own a gun in the District. Didn't bother the gangbangers now did it?

It isn't for you or I or anyone else to decide if someone has too many guns if they are responsible with them. It is their money...their business. Why everyone wants to dictate everyone else's hobby or personal possessions is beyond me....

The second someone misuses a gun, toss the book at them, but many people own and use guns for various legitimate purposes and never need the government to tell them how to do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starter

Your post is an interesting one. Just as a comparison, I did a quick search and found these statistics from 2007. They are for deaths in the US.

First in number of deaths by cause was heart disease at 616,067. Number 5 was "unintentional" (accidents) deaths at 123,706. Number 11 was suicide (all causes) at 34,598. Homicide (all causes) was number 15 at 18,361. The others in between 1 and 15, in order, were malignant neuroplasms, cerebro vascular, chronic respiratory, alzheimer's, diabetes, influenza & pneumonia, nephritis and septicemia.

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It is disingenuous to address illness and biological causes of death to further the argument about guns.

Let's keep the thread based upon guns and not use analogies like cars or refrigerators or the like when their intention is not for the purpose of causing harm. Guns are made to inflict harm. People choose (majority) them for sporting events.

Now the figures posted are like camouflage. They do not address the central issue of guns. Be it for sport or for protection. Criminals will always get guns.

Where suicide is concerned it is seven times more likely that a person will use a gun if present. That is a huge statistic.

Another poster mentioned the army and kicking out military personnel under 20. That is a ridiculous argument.

The military is where you would be least likely to have gun violence yet there are more prominent. Training,the proper use of and respect to the dangers is instilled.

Roamy used the argument that Mexico a third world country was comparable to the US.

Why did he not mention that guns can be bought out of the back of cars without a check. So who is buying them ,Roamy? Could be a terrorist for all you know or gang members. Huge flaws.

SChmenke makes a point that is absolutely correct and during the Bush era I always was amused with the wire tapping issue.

If you register guns they are more easily traced. Today, certain gun companies manufacture fingerprint proof stocks and hand pieces. Why?

The right wing and many on the left stated they had nothing to fear from wire tapping since they did nothing wrong. So why fear registering guns?

Starter, whomever it was that wrote the article on disease and it's influence on death was not a doctor as two of the causes of death from his/her quote are non -existent. Neoplasm would be the correct term and it includes any and all cells that have grown well beyond their normal state. Not all are malignant.

It is estimated that one fourth of violent crimes—murder, aggravated assault, rape, and robbery

committed (a total of 1,430,693) were committed with a firearm. For each firearm-related death, two nonfatal firearm-related injuries were treated in hospital emergency departments.Homicide, suicide, and unintentional death in the United States exceed those of 25 other high-income nations.
I would love to know where your source got his/her figures since the US alone has over 90k+ gun incidents alone per year with over 35,000 of them fatal. These are homicides. 85 people per day are murdered using guns.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by glauistean

It is disingenuous to address illness and biological causes of death to further the argument about guns.

Let's keep the thread based upon guns and not use analogies like cars or refrigerators or the like when their intention is not for the purpose of causing harm. Guns are made to inflict harm. People choose (majority) them for sporting events.

Now the figures posted are like camouflage. They do not address the central issue of guns. Be it for sport or for protection. Criminals will always get guns.

Where suicide is concerned it is seven times more likely that a person will use a gun if present. That is a huge statistic.

Another poster mentioned the army and kicking out military personnel under 20. That is a ridiculous argument.

The military is where you would be least likely to have gun violence yet there are more prominent. Training,the proper use of and respect to the dangers is instilled.

Roamy used the argument that Mexico a third world country was comparable to the US.

Why did he not mention that guns can be bought out of the back of cars without a check? So who is buying them ,Roamy? Could be a terrorist for all you know or gang members. Huge flaws.

SChmenke makes a point that is absolutely correct and during the Bush era I always was amused with the wire tapping issue.

If you register guns they are more easily traced. Today, certain gun companies manufacture fingerprint proof stocks and hand pieces. Why?

The right wing and many on the left stated they had nothing to fear from wire tapping since they did nothing wrong. So why fear registering guns?

Starter, whomever it was that wrote the article on disease and it's influence on death was not a doctor as two of the causes of death from his/her quote are non -existent. Neoplasm would be the correct term and it includes any and all cells that have grown well beyond their normal state. Not all are malignant.

It is estimated that one fourth of violent crimes—murder, aggravated assault, rape, and robbery

committed (a total of 1,430,693) were committed with a firearm. For each firearm-related death, two nonfatal firearm-related injuries were treated in hospital emergency departments.Homicide, suicide, and unintentional death in the United States exceed those of 25 other high-income nations.
I would love to know where your source got his/her figures since the US alone has over 90k+ gun incidents alone per year with over 35,000 of them fatal. These are homicides. 85 people per day are murdered using guns.

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Where do you live and what makes you an authority on the Home of the Brave?
BTW If you are from the UK I would be careful who you refer to as being inbred as I noticed you did it to one member who I don't generally agree with but if he works out 1/2 as hard and lifts 1/2 half as much weight as he says he does (which I have no reason to doubt) he would do a tap dance on your head and probably hit you about 47 times in the face before you hit the ground. I'm pretty sure he is a Brit, however I suspect you already know that because I have a feeling he has let you know in a PM. You definately need to get out more. You are only 12 years younger than me yet you appear to be very naive. I suppose you thought you could come on this forum and belittle a bunch of hayseeds but you are a paper tiger. I've been a registered voter and Democrat since 1972. I have some experience in the southwestern part of the US as I have lived here most of my life.
The Bill of Rights and The Constitution of the United States of America. has granted us certain inalienable rights. Now of course in a Democratic Republic these laws can and have been amended, but they can only be taken away by god. Since a great number of the founding fathers of The U.S. were atheist's why do you think they included that wording? I'll tell you. Because if there is no god than we are none the worse! Contrary to my screen name I have never been to jail and I certainly haven't been to prison. I have done a lot of work in South Central L.A. and other unsavory areas. Then again I learned at a very early age that if you handle your business in these locations in-between 7am and 2 pm all the bad guys are sawing logs. At the age of 17 I had a guy hold a loaded 9 mm to my head in anger and to prove he was not messing around he ejected a live round just to make sure I knew he was not playing. Was I scared? A little although I don't think I was as scarred as the guy holding the gun. Poor me I was participating in illicit unlawful activities but had enough sense to realize that my life was worth more than 120 bucks. Now back to guns and gun laws I've owned one gun in my life I used to take it target shooting and that was fun. I sold it the same way I bought it with an ad in the paper, Something you don't do now but this was over 20 years ago.
If you want to get the gangbangers and the people who's lives they affect really pisssed off make it so they have to get their guns from Eastern Block Nations or South America. Then the price of Cocaine and Weed will go up as well as the relative value of every thing involved in trafficking these substances. Crime may well increase as a result who knows? You certainly don't, and your statistics don't amount to jack squat anyway. Myself I don't like guns because I get plenty of decibels watching auto races and Rock Concerts When I'm out in the wilderness I don't care for sudden loud noises and if the rest of the environment could speak English they might agree. That is why I enjoy communing with nature by fishing and hiking I'm very good at the former. If I decided I wanted to hunt the most powerful weapon I would use would be a cross-bow to maintain the serenity of the moment.You think you can start a thread and then lay down the ground rules for the proper discourse to evaluate it and discard other analogies because you don't think they are applicable. I submit that you are just one more voice and if you are not a citizen of the USA you have even less juice in the affairs of my government. The Constitution grants the citizens the right to bear arms. Even if originally it was meant as a safeguard against a tyrannical government. The law is still valid. Personally I think it is a bigger hypocrisy for people are allowed to procreate and teach their offspring all kinds of unhealthy habits like getting fat on hamburgers and other meat products. I believe it would be beneficial if you had to earn a license to eat meat. Say you have to dress out a Buck, or a Steer. Personally I would not have any problem with it because I am quite handy with a filleting knife.

[quote="Mr Alcatraz"]Where do you live and what makes you an authority on the Home of the Brave?
BTW If you are from the UK I would be careful who you refer to as being inbred as I noticed you did it to one member who I don't generally agree with but if he works out 1/2 as hard and lifts 1/2 half as much weight as he says he does (which I have no reason to doubt) he would do a tap dance on your head and probably hit you about 47 times in the face before you hit the ground. I'm pretty sure he is a Brit, however I suspect you already know that because I have a feeling he has let you know in a PM. You definately need to get out more. You are only 12 years younger than me yet you appear to be very naive. I suppose you thought you could come on this forum and belittle a bunch of hayseeds but you are a paper tiger. I've been a registered voter and Democrat since 1972. I have some experience in the southwestern part of the US as I have lived here most of my life.
The Bill of Rights and The Constitution of the United States of America. has granted us certain inalienable rights. Now of course in a Democratic Republic these laws can and have been amended, but they can only be taken away by god. Since a great number of the founding fathers of The U.S. were atheist's why do you think they included that wording? I'll tell you. Because if there is no god than we are none the worse! Contrary to my screen name I have never been to jail and I certainly haven't been to prison. I have done a lot of work in South Central L.A. and other unsavory areas. Then again I learned at a very early age that if you handle your business in these locations in-between 7am and 2 pm all the bad guys are sawing logs. At the age of 17 I had a guy hold a loaded 9 mm to my head in anger and to prove he was not messing around he ejected a live round just to make sure I knew he was not playing. Was I scared? A little although I don't think I was as scarred as the guy holding the gun. Poor me I was participating in illicit unlawful activities but had enough sense to realize that my life was worth more than 120 bucks. Now back to guns and gun laws I've owned one gun in my life I used to take it target shooting and that was fun. I sold it the same way I bought it with an ad in the paper, Something you don't do now but this was over 20 years ago.
If you want to get the gangbangers and the people who's lives they affect really pisssed off make it so they have to get their guns from Eastern Block Nations or South America. Then the price of Cocaine and Weed will go up as well as the relative value of every thing involved in trafficking these substances. Crime may well increase as a result who knows? You certainly don't, and your statistics don't amount to jack squat anyway. Myself I don't like guns because I get plenty of decibels watching auto races and Rock Concerts When I'm out in the wilderness I don't care for sudden loud noises and if the rest of the environment could speak English they might agree. That is why I enjoy communing with nature by fishing and hiking I'm very good at the former. If I decided I wanted to hunt the most powerful weapon I would use would be a cross-bow to maintain the serenity of the moment.You think you can start a thread and then lay down the ground rules for the proper discourse to evaluate it and discard other analogies because you don't think they are applicable. I submit that you are just one more voice and if you are not a citizen of the USA you have even less juice in the affairs of my government. The Constitution grants the citizens the right to bear arms. Even if originally it was meant as a safeguard against a tyrannical government. The law is still valid. Personally I think it is a bigger hypocrisy for people are allowed to procreate and teach their offspring all kinds of unhealthy habits like getting fat on hamburgers and other meat products. I believe it would be beneficial if you had to earn a license to eat meat. Say you have to dress out a Buck, or a Steer. Personally I would not have any problem with it because I am quite handy with a filleting knife.

Alcatraz, you have threatened me in your last sentence. It is now incumbent upon me to make sure that threats such as this are recorded.

Your dissertation is senseless and without any type of cohesive argument. You're rambling. You are all over the place and if I were you , a person that argues for guns but is scared of them and would prefer the "serenity" of a bow and arrow I would have you taken to the nearest psych ward as your meandering is an embarrassment to the "home of the brave".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starter

No it isn't. I was using those statistics to put the gun deaths in the US in perspective to total causes of death. Perspective - something always to keep in mind when discussing volatile subjects.

Is your argument then only about the (evil) guns? Or are we talking about the manifold ways people unintentionally die? And how to best reduce said deaths.

You betcha! And that's why I prefer to be armed so as to deal with them on more or less equal footing.

And when going to the store 5 miles away, 19 out of twenty people will use a car. It's a matter of convenience. Were guns not available they would use other means. And have throughout history. I don't see the problem. If someone chooses to off themselves, why is it my business? It's their life.

That was me. Reread your statement and you'll see my comment was right on, given the context you proposed.

I believe you may have mis-stated here. I'm fairly right and I have a big problem with any government intrusion on private citizens - guns, phones or anything else. Who said anything about a problem with registering guns? I don't have one. Though most Europeans might, if they go back and read history about the Nazi invasions of some of their countries.

I can't dispute you here. As I said, it was a quick Google search and I can't (read: won't take the time to) verify it.

Of course. If I wanted to harm someone I'd use the easiest way possible too. Duh! That's a false argument. You are substituting the method (a gun) with the assailant (a person). A gun is an inanimate object. It's the person using it which is at fault.


And I'd love to know where your figures come from. Link please. I also need to ask, in you first sentence just above, are those figures adjusted for population?

And why are you including "unintentional death"? That includes things like falls and traffic accidents. Doesn't help your anti-gun premise at all.

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You use the word perspective and death by guns and cars as though they are connatural. They are not.

When you are debating an issue Starter, it is wise to adhere to the topic and not try to divert it to where you feel more comfortable.

Disease and guns are not the same. Guns cause death by projectile by a man made object.

Disease is caused by a plethora of different organisms be it biological, viral, DNA structural anomalies, genetic imperfections and on and on.

You can't have a logical debate about an object that has one purpose when you bring up another that has absolutely no baring on the topic. That death occurs in each has no bearing from one to the other.

It would be akin to a doctor taking out a patients appendix when they have cancer and another treating a patient for cancer when they need an appendectomy. They are totally different situations and incongruous.

As for the old tired adage of inanimate objects I would expect better from this forum. If there is any rational brain cell in the heads of those that use these tired old NRA slogans then why are they buying guns for SELF DEFENSE?

The sources I use are from the CDC USA, New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet and studies by Kellerman, Zimring and Lott. Lott you may well know wrote a study advocating for the gun lobby that was so full of statistical falsehoods he has become a pariah in the medical field.