No Merger!!!!

[bennybigb]

Has anyone else noticed that the IRL is a complete waste of time, and any ChampCar merger with them would completely ruin our series and the Long Beach GP?

Does anyone really want to see crapwagons at Long Beach, or Toronto or Cleveland, or Surfers? I don't.

I say no merger, maybe ChampCar will pull through afterall, but if we "Merge" with the IRL, than ChampCar will be gone forever, and open wheel racing will still be weak. Nobody cares about the IRL or the Indy 500, with or without ChampCar teams, with or without Long Beach. The IRL is dead. If the IRL was going to grow, it already would have. They have Indy, they have the sponsor $$, they have all the drivers and teams, but still nobody cares. Nobody will ever care about the IRL!

Everyone wants openwheel racing to return to it's glory days, but merging with the IRL is not going to make that happen. I say stay the course, or if you must merge with somebody, then merge with the ALMS.

No IRL Please!!!

[tbyars]

As I told someone else today, you sure do find it easy to spend KK's money.

[call_me_andrew]

Yeah! Who wants to go to a race when all these other people have shown up for it?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/Davydd_2006/2007Indy500.jpg

It's way more trendy to go to races no one else goes to. Check out this trendy ghost town at Portland.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/medium_empty%20stands.JPG

[POS_Maggott]

Thats a little bit subjective -- I mean, the first picture IS the Indy 500.

Did you see any of their other races? Fitting 10,000 people into grandstands that seat 150,000 isnt all that impressive.

[vintage]

Similar to lying with statistics - pick the only well attended IRL race, and the worst attended CCWS race.

[jimispeed]

I love everything about Champcar. You absolutely must go to a race, and
see all that Champcar is!!

I would love to see a merger, but it's got to be done right.

A takeover is not a merger!!!

[ChaimWitz]

Where do I begin?

Let's go back to the tired topic of ChampCar's overblown attendance. Take for example Las Vegas last year. The promoter of this now vaporized event tried to claim that there were 40,000 people there on raceday. There were roughly 18,000 grandstand seats and suite seats but the main 12,000 seat grandstand was about 65% full at best. I talked to several people who I trust and they said that true attendance was approximately 14,000-16,000. Portland, Houston, Cleveland, Toronto, St. Jovite, San Jose and Zolder were all similar examples of Kalkhovian mathematics. Mexico City's attendance has also plummeted over the years to levels that the fanatics bash the IRL for. Long Beach saw a bounce back to about 2002 levels but the number of grandstand seats was down to only 25K. I know because I counted them and have done so since the 1980s. If you think there were another sixty five thousand people on the grounds, then I have several million dollars worth of Panoz DP-1 spares that I would like to sell you. My guess is that ChampCar's crown jewel, the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach had roughly 35-40,000 people on property on race day. Hmmm... pretty close the the attendance the IRL had for the Corn Cob GP in Iowa. But, this is a ChampCar thread so I will stick to ChampCar attendance. However, I will mention that the IRL can be equally proud of the job they have done in scaring away the fans from formerly successful events.

This proves to me that the extremists on either side are dead wrong and what they wanted didn't make business sense. So now, it is time for common sense and "one series" based upon common ground and common interests. "One series" is the prerequisite foundation for a better future. At this point, (amazingly) the IndyCar series is the less ugly dog at the pound and will be spared euthanasia but its sickly twin ChampCar won't be so lucky.

Now, on to the topic of "No merger"... Be careful what you wish for: This isn't going to be a merger. It will be a "going out of business sale" by ChampCar.

Get your Paulie G-String and Kevin Kalkhoven bobble heads before its tooooo late. Dial 1-800-NOSENSE nowwww and we will throw in a Motorock beer bong and an Arizona Grand Prix wife beater t-shirt for the same low, lowwww price ChampCar has offered as a sanction fee to numerous promoters for 2008. How lowwwww you ask? So lowwwww it rimes with Hiro! Operators were standing by but after all the Amigos have pulled on Champcar's employees, they have now left the building and are never coming back.

[millencolin]

Yeah! Who wants to go to a race when all these other people have shown up for it?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k309/Davydd_2006/2007Indy500.jpg

It's way more trendy to go to races no one else goes to. Check out this trendy ghost town at Portland.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/sportsupdates/medium_empty%20stands.JPG


thats ridiculous... seriously. how about i find a photo from a crowd at fontana for a CART/Champ Car race and then compare it to an IRL crowd photo...

you are comparing the Indy500 to portland... apples and oranges

[3Monkeys]

I love everything about Champcar. You absolutely must go to a race, and
see all that Champcar is!!

I would love to see a merger, but it's got to be done right.

A takeover is not a merger!!!

I agree with this. Although ChampCar is doing it tough and has done for a while now, there is just something about it. I would like to see a merger but trying to rush it through like it seems to be at the moment feels like a tact to take over. Both sides already have their 08 schedual ready to go, and with this take over/merger the IRL will take on 4 of the ChampCar races and dump the rest, yet wont dump any of thier races to accomodate some of the other races...... Laguna, Cleveland, Mont Tremblant, Toronto, etc. Some of the IRL ovals should go and bring some of these onboard as well..

Leave it alone for 08 and get the talks going on a regular basis through the year and get it sorted for 09. Get an oval wing setup for the Panoz and get rid of the ugly IRL car. Engines? Get 10 of the best tracks from CC, 10 of the best from IRL and have a 20 race schedual. That sound like a merger. Getting the best from both and mixing it together.

Im just a ChampCar fan, so dont rip my head off for my little ideas. Its just the way i would like to see it come together.

3M

[ChaimWitz]

thats ridiculous... seriously. how about i find a photo from a crowd at fontana for a CART/Champ Car race and then compare it to an IRL crowd photo...

you are comparing the Indy500 to portland... apples and oranges

Well, The Fontana CART crowds where product of bundled NASCAR and CART ticket packages during the first few years of California Speedway which was run by Penske Motorsports with sponsorship from Marlboro. Not surprisingly, the bundled ticket packages went away when ISC purchased the company from Penske in 1999. The CART crowds fell dramatically after that. These days ISC falls far short of selling out even its two NASCAR events. I live in the market and the CART races under ISC were very poorly promoted and the IRL races looked like they weren't promoted at all.

I agree about Portland and Indy being a poor comparison. On the other hand, Long Beach and Indy are a fair comparison of attendance for Long Beach on race day and Indy on Carb Day. Long Beach has a slight lead but Indy is only a free Kiss concert away from pulling ahead.

[DBell]

Why not compare the Portland picture from one from Homestead? But then that would've been an honest comparrison and we can't set dangerous precedents like that in this silly OW civil war.

[ChaimWitz]

Has anyone else noticed that the IRL is a complete waste of time, and any ChampCar merger with them would completely ruin our series and the Long Beach GP?

Does anyone really want to see crapwagons at Long Beach, or Toronto or Cleveland, or Surfers? I don't.

I say no merger, maybe ChampCar will pull through afterall, but if we "Merge" with the IRL, than ChampCar will be gone forever, and open wheel racing will still be weak. Nobody cares about the IRL or the Indy 500, with or without ChampCar teams, with or without Long Beach. The IRL is dead. If the IRL was going to grow, it already would have. They have Indy, they have the sponsor $$, they have all the drivers and teams, but still nobody cares. Nobody will ever care about the IRL!

Everyone wants openwheel racing to return to it's glory days, but merging with the IRL is not going to make that happen. I say stay the course, or if you must merge with somebody, then merge with the ALMS.

No IRL Please!!!

Just what is it that ChampCar has that the IRL would be merging with? They don't own Long Beach or Cosworth (KK and GF own the promoters rights to LB for one more year and Cosworth). They don't own all the teams (only a third of them) nor do they own the drivers (heaven forbid, that would actually involve paying them). Also, if the IRL is a complete waste of time, what does that make ChampCar given they way things are going? Perhaps it is now sadly a compete waste of time, money and reputation? Well, if nobody cares about the IRL, then by direct market comparison, it appears that less than nobody cares about the ChampCar World Series so it won't be the great loss you make it out to be.

[jimispeed]

I agree with this. Although ChampCar is doing it tough and has done for a while now, there is just something about it. I would like to see a merger but trying to rush it through like it seems to be at the moment feels like a tact to take over. Both sides already have their 08 schedual ready to go, and with this take over/merger the IRL will take on 4 of the ChampCar races and dump the rest, yet wont dump any of thier races to accomodate some of the other races...... Laguna, Cleveland, Mont Tremblant, Toronto, etc. Some of the IRL ovals should go and bring some of these onboard as well..

Leave it alone for 08 and get the talks going on a regular basis through the year and get it sorted for 09. Get an oval wing setup for the Panoz and get rid of the ugly IRL car. Engines? Get 10 of the best tracks from CC, 10 of the best from IRL and have a 20 race schedual. That sound like a merger. Getting the best from both and mixing it together.

Im just a ChampCar fan, so dont rip my head off for my little ideas. Its just the way i would like to see it come together.

3M


I guess there are a few people that think the way I do......

It must be fair, or nothing.....

[ChaimWitz]

I guess there are a few people that think the way I do......

It must be fair, or nothing.....

So jimispeed, does "fair" mean pretending that ChampCar is a viable business when it is not?

The truth is that OWRS is such an Enron-like disaster that it makes the IRL look like Exxon in comparison. That sir, takes some doing.

What some people here fail to grasp is that many of these ChampCar races don't pay a sanction fee and they lose millions of dollars. What is also lost here is the fact that this is not a merger. It is the collapse of ChampCar and the Amigo's ill-advised four year bluffathon.

Why should the IRL or anyone else, for that matter, take on multiple events that pay little or nothing in sanction fees, attract smallish crowds and lose a small fortune? This is ChampCar's shipwreck not the IRL's. I imagine that the IRL will not want to betray those that they have contracts with simply to bali out the Amigo's egos (and yours in the process). I imagine that the IRL will only want to find out what makes sense before they save it and that will take some doing given the deceptive BS and spin that has surrounded the CCWS since the days of The Pookster.

To me "fair" has a lot in common with being responsible. The fact the IRL has obviously run its business better and more responsibly than the last four "management" teams at CART and CC means it is fair that they get to make the decisions now.

So for some, it may also mean "nothing" is what they will get as a reward for believing in the Amigos.

[jimispeed]

Just what is it that ChampCar has that the IRL would be merging with? They don't own Long Beach or Cosworth (KK and GF own the promoters rights to LB for one more year and Cosworth). They don't own all the teams (only a third of them) nor do they own the drivers (heaven forbid, that would actually involve paying them). Also, if the IRL is a complete waste of time, what does that make ChampCar given they way things are going? Perhaps it is now sadly a compete waste of time, money and reputation? Well, if nobody cares about the IRL, then by direct market comparison, it appears that less than nobody cares about the ChampCar World Series so it won't be the great loss you make it out to be.


The Long Beach agreement with KK and GF is coming up, and they are in the works to extend it....

Contract extension sought for Long Beach GP
On Tuesday the Long Beach, CA City Council will consider extending Long Beach's agreement with the Grand Prix Association that is set to end in 2010. The proposal calls for extending the agreement to 2015, with an optional extension to 2020 with council approval, according to a city report.
Michael Conway, the city's public works director, said that the city has traditionally offered the association 10-year extensions.

KK and GF own Champcar....

Both series are in dire straits, but both series also have some great assets.

Together, they could ultimately be a phenomenol series.

But, it must be done right. TG seems to be trying take advantage of what he has, before it's gone.

So far, it's not a merger!

So, for now I'm looking forward to watching Champcar this year.

A merger that preserves both series, and their greatest strengths is what open wheel needs.

Otherwise they still remain the same series, and have the same problems.

Hopefully if there isn't a proper merger, growth will continue.

We have no control over any of this.

The parties involved will do what they want!!

[ChaimWitz]

The Long Beach agreement with KK and GF is coming up, and they are in the works to extend it....

Contract extension sought for Long Beach GP
On Tuesday the Long Beach, CA City Council will consider extending Long Beach's agreement with the Grand Prix Association that is set to end in 2010. The proposal calls for extending the agreement to 2015, with an optional extension to 2020 with council approval, according to a city report.
Michael Conway, the city's public works director, said that the city has traditionally offered the association 10-year extensions.

KK and GF own Champcar....

Both series are in dire straits, but both series also have some great assets.

Together, they could ultimately be a phenomenol series.

But, it must be done right. TG seems to be trying take advantage of what he has, before it's gone.

So far, it's not a merger!

So, for now I'm looking forward to watching Champcar this year.

A merger that preserves both series, and their greatest strengths is what open wheel needs.

Otherwise they still remain the same series, and have the same problems.

Hopefully if there isn't a proper merger, growth will continue.

We have no control over any of this.

The parties involved will do what they want!!

jimispeed? Don't you think there is some connection between the LBGP contract meeting and the behavior of the Amigos recently? How do you think the folks in Long Beach feel about KK and GF given the instability of the CCWS right about now? In my opinion, they are going to want to cover their Assens and that may not include CC. The stature of the event has fallen quite far in the past five years and everyone but the die hard fanatics can see the truth of it.

[bennybigb]

Just what is it that ChampCar has that the IRL would be merging with? They don't own Long Beach or Cosworth (KK and GF own the promoters rights to LB for one more year and Cosworth). They don't own all the teams (only a third of them) nor do they own the drivers (heaven forbid, that would actually involve paying them). Also, if the IRL is a complete waste of time, what does that make ChampCar given they way things are going? Perhaps it is now sadly a compete waste of time, money and reputation? Well, if nobody cares about the IRL, then by direct market comparison, it appears that less than nobody cares about the ChampCar World Series so it won't be the great loss you make it out to be.

ChampCar has great racing, great cars, and great events. If ChampCar mergers with the IRL we will lose all of this. Only a couple ChampCar events will continue, but with IRL cars? There goes the great racing, great events and the great cars.

If this merger happens you will see open wheel racing continue to suffer. Adding a couple cars and Paul Tracy to the IRL grid will do nothing, fans don't want the IRL.

I would like a merger if it would be done right, but this is not a merger! A merger done right would include keeping the ChampCar and the cosworth and keeping 75% of the ChampCar schedule, throw in the Indy 500 and a few of the strongest IRL races, the IRL teams/drivers and the IRL TV contract. You are now well on your way to fixing open wheel racing in America. But what I just described is no where near what this "merger" will look like at all, so I say no merger please.

[jimispeed]

jimispeed? Don't you think there is some connection between the LBGP contract meeting and the behavior of the Amigos recently? How do you think the folks in Long Beach feel about KK and GF given the instability of the CCWS right about now? In my opinion, they are going to want to cover their Assens and that may not include CC. The stature of the event has fallen quite far in the past five years and everyone but the die hard fanatics can see that.


Given the instability of both series right now, none of us know anything that's going on!!

The Amigos meetings with The Long Beach Grand Prix just may be very well planned, and LBGP may be very happy with Champcar, and how they've been at Long Beach for the last 30 years!!

Long Beach is still a pretty damn good event!!

Have you ever been? If not, you should go!!

[DBell]

The stature of the event has fallen quite far in the past five years and everyone but the die hard fanatics can see the truth of it.

If I take just this line from your post and I didn't know what event your refering to, I could think your talking about LB. But I also could believe you are talking about Indy. Or anything involving CC or the IRL.

BOTH series are riduled with problems and a merger is only a starting point to try and rebuild. There are still a sea of problems to overcome even if a merger happens. (And I won't believe in a merger until I see all the teams running in the same race.) It remains to be seen in OW can ever recover from the last dozen years. I have serious doubts that it can happen.

[CCWS77]

Let's go back to the tired topic of ChampCar's overblown attendance. Take for example Las Vegas last year. The promoter of this now vaporized event tried to claim that there were 40,000 people there on raceday. There were roughly 18,000 grandstand seats and suite seats but the main 12,000 seat grandstand was about 65% full at best. I talked to several people who I trust and they said that true attendance was approximately 14,000-16,000.
.

I cant believe you are harping on this nonsense after a year. I pointed out on this forum after Vegas that Sunday the I heard ticket sellers telling people they had to buy general admission because the grandstand was sold out. This was a major inconvience because you had to take a shuttle bus away from the main grandstand area. No they were not physically full at all. But Was this poorly organized CHAOS at the scene all some conspiracy to inflate the attendence figures? Give me a F break





Portland, Houston, Cleveland, Toronto, St. Jovite, San Jose and Zolder were all similar examples of Kalkhovian mathematics. This proves to me that the extremists on either side are dead wrong and what they wanted didn't make business sense.

Dude it was raining that day and the grandstand was still full and the parking lot was jammed for hours after the race at St Jovite. If CC is so bad why do IRL people need to make crap up about it? Thats what I always want to know.



So now, it is time for common sense and "one series" based upon common ground and common interests.
The problem is that is not what is happening. It seems clear TG will never allow that to happen. Just because los Amigos finally give up is not changing that.



Now, on to the topic of "No merger"... Be careful what you wish for: This isn't going to be a merger. It will be a "going out of business sale" by ChampCar.
see you proved my point


CCWS and the IRL have somewhat different problems. CC is beset by total and complete disorganization, lack of PR, lack of sponsors and lack of TV coverage, lack of the I500. IRL is plagued by terrible venues, a mediocre at best car and racing and a general lack of fan attendence. See I have no problem pointing out the problems with CC so why do IRL fans? Instead your post is projecting actual IRL problems onto the CCWS. A merger could work if it took the best of each but that itsnt what is happening. I'm not sure TG would ever let it happen. I think merger fanatics generally fail to realize that disassembling Champ Car and adding a just a few of its pieces to the IRL is not going to be some vast improvement to the IRL. If this goes through then how long intil the merger kool-aid wears off and the disapointment that we have not reached racing nirvanna sinks in? I bet May 2009

You know let me turn this question around. Would everyone be in favor of a merger that had the current CCWS schedule + 4 IRL races and used all the CCWS equipment? Im curious if when you look at it like that if you merger at all costs people really still mean it?

[DBell]

Great post CCWS77. One of the biggest things to overcome in the event of a merger will be the division of fans. And the fact that very few new ones have been created in the last dozen years.

[nanders]

Did you see any of their other races?

The Kansas IRL race was maybe 3/4 full.


Fitting 10,000 people into grandstands that seat 150,000 isnt all that impressive.

When Penske did seat additions at Michigan to accommodate more people at NASCAR races and all the open wheel people freaked out saying the crowds where getting smaller.

Crappy's should relax a bit because, I think we may just get a real consolidated CART clone out of this deal. You can still hate Tony George. Remember in F1/FIA before Max Mosley there was a man J M Balestrere that everyone loved to hate? And before long the ICS will have a new car and you can hate that too.

[nanders]

I agree with this. Although ChampCar is doing it tough and has done for a while now, there is just something about it. I would like to see a merger but trying to rush it through like it seems to be at the moment feels like a tact to take over. Both sides already have their 08 schedual ready to go, and with this take over/merger the IRL will take on 4 of the ChampCar races and dump the rest, yet wont dump any of thier races to accomodate some of the other races...... Laguna, Cleveland, Mont Tremblant, Toronto, etc. Some of the IRL ovals should go and bring some of these onboard as well..

Leave it alone for 08 and get the talks going on a regular basis through the year and get it sorted for 09. Get an oval wing setup for the Panoz and get rid of the ugly IRL car. Engines? Get 10 of the best tracks from CC, 10 of the best from IRL and have a 20 race schedual. That sound like a merger. Getting the best from both and mixing it together.

Im just a ChampCar fan, so dont rip my head off for my little ideas. Its just the way i would like to see it come together.

3M

Even though some races may disappear from the schedule, it may be temporary. The true cream will again rise to the top, when you give the promoters something to work with.

[Chaparral66]

I cant believe you are harping on this nonsense after a year. I pointed out on this forum after Vegas that Sunday the I heard ticket sellers telling people they had to buy general admission because the grandstand was sold out. This was a major inconvience because you had to take a shuttle bus away from the main grandstand area. No they were not physically full at all. But Was this poorly organized CHAOS at the scene all some conspiracy to inflate the attendence figures? Give me a F break




Dude it was raining that day and the grandstand was still full and the parking lot was jammed for hours after the race at St Jovite. If CC is so bad why do IRL people need to make crap up about it? Thats what I always want to know.



The problem is that is not what is happening. It seems clear TG will never allow that to happen. Just because los Amigos finally give up is not changing that.



see you proved my point


CCWS and the IRL have somewhat different problems. CC is beset by total and complete disorganization, lack of PR, lack of sponsors and lack of TV coverage, lack of the I500. IRL is plagued by terrible venues, a mediocre at best car and racing and a general lack of fan attendence. See I have no problem pointing out the problems with CC so why do IRL fans? Instead your post is projecting actual IRL problems onto the CCWS. A merger could work if it took the best of each but that itsnt what is happening. I'm not sure TG would ever let it happen. I think merger fanatics generally fail to realize that disassembling Champ Car and adding a just a few of its pieces to the IRL is not going to be some vast improvement to the IRL. If this goes through then how long intil the merger kool-aid wears off and the disapointment that we have not reached racing nirvanna sinks in? I bet May 2009

You know let me turn this question around. Would everyone be in favor of a merger that had the current CCWS schedule + 4 IRL races and used all the CCWS equipment? Im curious if when you look at it like that if you merger at all costs people really still mean it?

I hear what you're saying CCWS77, but I'm not sure that kind of merger is viable. I do think the DP-01 is a superior car but the schedule would have to reflect a much more balanced mix of CCWS and IRL events, including, obviously, Indy. That would mean trying to get Fontana and Michigan back in the deal.

As far as the two series being different, everyone recognizes that. But the deal has come down to a "lesser of two evils" situation. Flawed as TG's "vision" may have been, and still is, the point here is that he stuck to it, so that everyone knows what it is. The Amigos haven't. They let us all down. They changed their plan everytime the wind blew in a different direction, and ended up making a bad decision. Many of those decisions were based on ego instead of a cold hard look at the series and fans' interest. While I'm not happy that TG could wind up in control of this thing, when comparing him now with the Amigos, at best it's a crap shoot.

[Miatanut]

Has anyone else noticed that the IRL is a complete waste of time, and any ChampCar merger with them would completely ruin our series and the Long Beach GP?

Does anyone really want to see crapwagons at Long Beach, or Toronto or Cleveland, or Surfers? I don't.

I say no merger, maybe ChampCar will pull through afterall, but if we "Merge" with the IRL, than ChampCar will be gone forever, and open wheel racing will still be weak. Nobody cares about the IRL or the Indy 500, with or without ChampCar teams, with or without Long Beach. The IRL is dead. If the IRL was going to grow, it already would have. They have Indy, they have the sponsor $$, they have all the drivers and teams, but still nobody cares. Nobody will ever care about the IRL!

Everyone wants openwheel racing to return to it's glory days, but merging with the IRL is not going to make that happen. I say stay the course, or if you must merge with somebody, then merge with the ALMS.

No IRL Please!!!

What are you smoking, 'cause I want some!

The Amigos came out of the starting gate strong and then faded. It's no longer a viable place for a team to operate. The only question is whether there will be a merger or a bankruptcy.

I will have nothing to do with anything run by Tony George. It the teams should summon the courage to demand equal control and make it happen, I will be back. If it's just a crippled series in service of "The only race that matters" (funny, I thought that was in France every June!), then my focus will be on the REAL series in service of the real "only race that really matters", ALMS. Multiple chassis, multiple engines, multiple tires, advanced technology, manufacturer involvement, lots of cars on the track at the same time. I can't stand the Audi's or Pimpski, but it's always fun to watch them when it's unclear who will win. Mika Salo's always a lot of fun to watch in GT2.

Not a bad deal, really.

Some day, American open wheel will get its act back together and be worth watching again.

[SoCalPVguy]

I liken the "no merger" folks to the supporters of "Beta". Sorry but the maketplace spoke and "VHS" won.

[nanders]

I liken the "no merger" folks to the supporters of "Beta". Sorry but the maketplace spoke and "VHS" won.

Beta = CCF

[Cart750hp]

Beta = CCF

Eventually, most will follow what is available for them. One of my boss once told me, "There is a system already in place to wherever you go. You just have to adjust and improve it and things will be just fine. But as soon as you make changes in the system, it'll screw you back." They hated IRL, I for one, but since both series will be under one roof........instead of arguing or picking a series, I cannot wait to see arguing about who's the better driver and what's the better team.

[indycool]

Hahaha.....pretty good comparison......

This is not a matter of road course vs. oval, ICS vs. CCWS, CC-supporters' elegant phrase "AOWR," the most rabid fan or the last hobo out of the boxcar.

It is about money, financial sense, financial well-being.

Run a DP-01 and a Dallara side-by-side, painted the same way, down the frontstretch at Indy at 225 and ask the GENERAL fan in Grandstand C which is which and A) He/she will say, "I don't know," or B) Which one is Tracy driving and which one is Marco driving.

There is no oval kit for the DP-01. That is not a factor. There are plenty of Dallaras. That IS a factor.

There are plenty of financially-losing races on the CC schedule. Those are not factors. There are plenty of solid financial races on the ICS schedule. Those ARE factors.

That's why the talks tip toward the IRL side.

[call_me_andrew]

Thats a little bit subjective -- I mean, the first picture IS the Indy 500.

Did you see any of their other races? Fitting 10,000 people into grandstands that seat 150,000 isnt all that impressive.

Here's a look at the crowd at Iowa. Now I know we don't care what Iowa thinks after January, but that looks like a packed grandstand to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6XN0bzThQU

[-Helix-]

What other choice do they have? CC doesn't have the money to continue operating. They would be lucky to make it through another season.

[Chaparral66]

Both series have their strong and weak events. Pointless debate, IMHO.

[indycool]

Yes, Chap, but CC has more of them plus track rentals and self-promotes where they hafta hire staff (Portland) which costs more money, the "nut" is raised and very hard to reach.

[Chaparral66]

Yeah, but we were just talking attendence, not business practice. Having said that, it is the deplorable business approach that put the Amigos in a position where they had to do those things that raised their nut.

[gofastandwynn]

Here's a look at the crowd at Iowa. Now I know we don't care what Iowa thinks after January, but that looks like a packed grandstand to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6XN0bzThQU

I was there and it was jammed full. They had added extra seating in turn four that got sold out, then they added standing room only tickets so the gap between the upper and lower seats was full of people standing.

and this from John O


Iowa Speedway is a winner
After successfully avoiding the cliché all weekend, here it is: If you build it, they will come.

This much was proved by the inaugural IndyCar Series race at Iowa Speedway. The Iowa Corn Indy 250 attracted an announced crowd of 35,838, and by the SRO look of the general admission area, the final number could be higher.

Even more encouraging for the Indy Racing League, Saturday's paid attendance was more than 16,000.

It was a promising beginning for a racy new track in the heartland. Iowa Speedway is unlikely to turn into another Bristol, but the potential for considerable growth is certainly there.

"We are thrilled with the crowd, and we believe this event has a lot of momentum," said Iowa Speedway president Stan Clement.

Track access will need to be improved. There's only one route in and out, and traffic was lined up several miles to Interstate 80 less than an hour before the green flag, but the jam cleared by the time the race started.

[CCWS77]

I liken the "no merger" folks to the supporters of "Beta". Sorry but the maketplace spoke and "VHS" won.


There is no point in argueing about the finances. THe numbers are the numbers and we will probably never see them. If fans want to root against the death of CCWS there is nothing wrong with that.

I think the bigger point here is that when beta went out of buisness there were not people with VHS players trying to convice those with Beta players that this was a "merger" that would benefit them. Sure you can go ahead and play your Beta tapes in this VCR isnt it great Beta went out of buisness! Did the death of one format magically creates a new merged product better then both? Did VHS suddenly get the improved picture quality that beta had? That is what some of you claim about this "merger" and that that is the deslusional BS around here. We are stuck with crappy VHS dont try and convince me it is Blueray and label those who dont buy it as not facing reality.

[Miatanut]

Yes, Chap, but CC has more of them plus track rentals and self-promotes where they hafta hire staff (Portland) which costs more money, the "nut" is raised and very hard to reach.

Portland is not a self-promote. If it were, it would do well, like LB, Cleveland, and Houston. Portland is Global Events, which does nothing to promote it. They just stand with their hand out asking CCWS for money. I've gotten postcards to a couple different mailing addresses I use, promoting the "Ferrari Challenge", which is just an event at PIR to burnish the Ferrari image. That means they got my address from a couple different gearhead publication sources I get. Does Global send postcards out to people on the various gearhead mailing lists for CCWS or ALMS? Never! ALMS has given up on them twice now.

[SoCalPVguy]

I liken the "no merger" folks to the supporters of "Beta". Sorry but the maketplace spoke and "VHS" won.

I think the point was that ironically "Beta" was the better technology, but "VHS" won the marketplace anyway so the CCWS v. IRL comparison is even more applicable.

[POS_Maggott]

Here's a look at the crowd at Iowa. Now I know we don't care what Iowa thinks after January, but that looks like a packed grandstand to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6XN0bzThQU


To be fair, thats also a brand new track in an area that hasn't had a hell of a lot of "big name" racing. Of course its going to be full, everyone wants to see what its all about.



When Penske did seat additions at Michigan to accommodate more people at NASCAR races and all the open wheel people freaked out saying the crowds where getting smaller.

Thats not very fair either. They added the seats years ago, and from everything that I've seen, can hardly sell out 1/4 of the front stretch, doesnt tell me that its all because of the added stands.



The Kansas IRL race was maybe 3/4 full.

Attendance: media estimate of 40,000-45,000

Capacity: 82,000

Yeah, thats definitely 3/4 full. Now, I'm not saying that isn't good. With the way that open wheel racing is going in North America, getting 45,000 people in to watch a race is pretty decent. I just think that a lot of the figures laid out by people are kind of overblown -- and thats on both sides.

[indycool]

Miatanut, Portland IS a self-promote. CC backs it and hires Neely and Global Events to promote it. There is no sanction fee paid to CC. If there is, it's out of one pocket and into another.

[nanders]

Yes, Chap, but CC has more of them plus track rentals and self-promotes where they hafta hire staff (Portland) which costs more money, the "nut" is raised and very hard to reach.

With a schedule consolidation, a bunch of traditional venues will be dropped. Maybe they will now have to compete for a slot. This could be good as this thing sorts out. You want a race ... then pay for it.

[pvtjoker]

My preference has always been for the IRL. Simply put, I think they put on more entertaining races than CC. That said, I've been to several CC races the past few years (Cleveland and LV last year) and enjoyed the on track action and value.

No question the 'civil war' has damaged BOTH sides. Whether they use an Indy car or a DP-01 or some other combo, its time we see they feud come to an end.

Thats what I'm hoping will happen.

[vintage]

CCWS is in a position that they either have to merge now, or deny any chance of merger. If you agree that you are going to merge in 2009, it would only make sense that the big teams might as well get some Dallaras and go to the IRL to get ready for next year. Maybe if they agree on 2010, the teams will just pick which series is more profitable.

Both Champ Car and the IRL have weak races that are either supported by the management, or are taking losses otherwise. It is just as stupid to keep a bunch of cookie cutter ovals as it is to keep Portland (although I like that track, being a CCWS supporter).

Seems to me that if this was going to happen, it should have happened last November instead of now. I really feel for the guys in the support series trying to sort out what to do now!

[nanders]

Both Champ Car and the IRL have weak races that are either supported by the management, or are taking losses otherwise. It is just as stupid to keep a bunch of cookie cutter ovals as it is to keep Portland (although I like that track, being a CCWS supporter).

When I went to the Kansas race last year the cars were so loud you couldn't hear the PA system. With the nearly identical team cars it was hard to tell who was who. And when the leaders started lapping the field and they were all spread out it was nearly impossible to tell what was going on. I kept track, because I'm a seasoned race fan but the 3 people I was with lost it and then the girls started saying ... "let's go."

[Chaparral66]

A big part of the problem of putting this thing together so quickly for this year is that a substantial amount of people might not like the end result, no matter who is perceived as "winning".

[SoCalPVguy]

A big part of the problem of putting this thing together so quickly for this year is that a substantial amount of people might not like the end result, no matter who is perceived as "winning".

Agree to a point. I think of the minscule number of posters on this board - which represent a deminimus percentage of race fans - a "substantial" amount of people might not like the end result, no matter who is perceived as "winning".

However when presented to the large universe of mostly casual observer race fan no one really cares, just read mainstream sporting press such as LA Times or Foxsports, ESPN, etc... if you need proof.

I will never ever forget going Riverside to see auto racing with some high school friends. I could immediatley see the nuances of each car, varying aerodynamic devices, etc... All my friend could tell was the difference between "cigar shaped bodies" and "Cheese wedge bodies" in the open wheel machines. Now THAT's the extent of most people's obsrevation of open wheel race car. From 50 yards out less than 0.0001 percent of the general fans can tell a Dallara from a Panoz, and even less would care if the race was entertaining.

Furthmore I can guarantee you the Sponsors can't tell the cars apart either, and getting AOWR together in one race will be the best thing to happen in 13 years for attracting sponsors.

[nanders]

Autoracing1 is now rumoring bankruptcy tomorrow:


" IRL Champ Car merger talks heat up UPDATE #5 As we surmised below, word is that Champ Car or OWRS will file for bankruptcy on Tuesday to facilitate the merger with the IRL. If true, as our sources tell us, Champ Car will be out of business and there will be once again a single open wheel series in the USA and that will be the Indy Racing League."

I guess the leaks and media reports really killed it. It's all the fans fault! :rolleyes:

Sorry sanquin I feel your pain.

[Dalon]

When I went to the Kansas race last year the cars were so loud you couldn't hear the PA system. With the nearly identical team cars it was hard to tell who was who. And when the leaders started lapping the field and they were all spread out it was nearly impossible to tell what was going on. I kept track, because I'm a seasoned race fan but the 3 people I was with lost it and then the girls started saying ... "let's go."
How many races have you been to?

I've never been to a race where I could hear the PA over the cars. Well, maybe an SCCA or short-track race, but you'll never hear the PA over the cars at a major series race.

Nascar, F1, Indy, Champcar, ALMS, they're all VERY loud. It would be unfeasible (and maybe dangerous) to make the public address system louder than those cars.

That's why for at least 20 years, every single major race I've attended has had a local radio broadcast of the commentary. Often a local radio station handles it, but when that is not available the track will have a low-powered radio signal to serve the fans.

The problem is that a small pocket radio and headphones will also be drowned out by the cars, even at full volume. Some people use those expenseve (and surprisingly low quality) ear-protection with built in radios.

But a better (and cheaper) solution is a $10 pocket radio and the headphones they come with, covered by a $7 pair of Mickey-Mouse (shooting range) ear protectors.

You'll be able to follow the race as easily as if you were at home, watching on TV.

[nanders]

How many races have you been to?

I've never been to a race where I could hear the PA over the cars. Well, maybe an SCCA or short-track race, but you'll never hear the PA over the cars at a major series race.

Nascar, F1, Indy, Champcar, ALMS, they're all VERY loud. It would be unfeasible (and maybe dangerous) to make the public address system louder than those cars.

That's why for at least 20 years, every single major race I've attended has had a local radio broadcast of the commentary. Often a local radio station handles it, but when that is not available the track will have a low-powered radio signal to serve the fans.

The problem is that a small pocket radio and headphones will also be drowned out by the cars, even at full volume. Some people use those expenseve (and surprisingly low quality) ear-protection with built in radios.

But a better (and cheaper) solution is a $10 pocket radio and the headphones they come with, covered by a $7 pair of Mickey-Mouse (shooting range) ear protectors.

You'll be able to follow the race as easily as if you were at home, watching on TV.

You got me on that one ... but then it's hard to talk to the people you're with ..... No biggie though.