Cosworth IRL Spec Engine

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Doesn't Cosworth have a pretty good IRL spec engine in its inventory ? I believe the Gen IV Chevy used by Sam Hornish at Panther for his last IRL Championship was a Cosworth ??? The engine probably could use a few tweaks before it is competitive with the Honda but this could be just the competition that Honda was looking for in order to keep going in the IRL.

[V12]

I agree! I mentioned something similar regarding the chassis side (Panoz have one!) - don't get me wrong I'd love it if a merger happened regardless (and yes I know that's still a big if right now!) but my interest would increase exponentially if we had some Dallara-Cosworth, Panoz-Honda and Panoz-Cosworth machinery out there too...

Of course the reality is that the Dallara and the Honda would probably remain the equipment of choice in their respective fields, since neither the G-Force/Panoz or Cosworth/Chevy have seen any development for a while, but both have won races in the past (under the current equipment cycle)...hey it's nice to dream :D

[Breeze]

For that matter, doesn't Honda have a very nice 2.65L turbo V8 in its inventory? What's more, the current spec Cosworth turbo is very similar to what it was when it raced against that Honda. Converting it to current spec was not very costly. It could go either way, enginewise.

[V12]

Good point, although if a hypothetical merged series went with IRL chassis, mating the turbos to them might be a bit of work, and with the Panoz DP01 not oval-ready as of this moment I can't see any other way it would go.

Unless.... Lola B2/00s anyone? :p :

[Breeze]

Good point, although if a hypothetical merged series went with IRL chassis, mating the turbos to them might be a bit of work, and with the Panoz DP01 not oval-ready as of this moment I can't see any other way it would go.

Unless.... Lola B2/00s anyone? :p :

True enough if you stay with the current Dallara or Panoz chassis. But as I understand it, ICS is due a new car for 2010? At this point in time the DP01 primarily needs only aero work to go oval racing. Dallara, having to draw up an all new chassis, new specs, etc. may be asked to go either way, engine wise. It'll either all shake out in the next year or it won't, we'll see.

Point is, it would enable Panoz to play in the league without having to start over from scratch if the DP01 and its design parameters form the basis of a new formula. Dallara has to (presumably) start from scratch anyway. That would leave only some engine develpment work by Honda to bring the turbo back.

If it goes the other way it will require some chassis design work for Panoz to fit a N/A larger, heavier V8 in the back and that may not be workable. Don't really know, have to ask Panoz engineers. Dallara still has to (presumably) start from scratch.

Either way it goes its gonna suck for somebody, just a question of who and how much. I'm sure if this consolidation takes place they'll take a look at all options and find the one that offers the best cost/benefit.

[Wraith]

Some of us are hoping for Honda to pull out in '09, and have the league be required to allow for both manufacturer-brand and independently-built tech-compliant engines. If some superteam (Penske) brings in a '94 screamin' demon, then the competition should just be forced to improve.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

[quote="Breeze"]At this point in time the DP01 primarily needs only aero work to go oval racing.
QUOTE]

I don't think the DP01 has been crash tested at speed for high speed superspeedways. I think it would need more than aero tweaking. It would need body armor.

[DBell]

At this point in time the DP01 primarily needs only aero work to go oval racing.
QUOTE]

I don't think the DP01 has been crash tested at speed for high speed superspeedways. I think it would need more than aero tweaking. It would need body armor.

I'm not sure that's true. I seem to remember that the DP01 was crash tested to be able to race ovals, but no oval package was developed due to cost and ovals no longer on CC schedule.

I've also have seen stated in racing forums, for what it's worth, that Cosworth doesn't have those IRL engines and that GM does.

I would hope that if both series become one, that a whole rethink on what the car should be for the future is done. I don't want to see a continuation of the IRL spec or the DP01 in 2010 and beyond.

[ShiftingGears]

I've heard Offenhausers are good oval engines, maybe we should give them a go.

[tbyars]

Doesn't Cosworth have a pretty good IRL spec engine in its inventory ? I believe the Gen IV Chevy used by Sam Hornish at Panther for his last IRL Championship was a Cosworth ??? The engine probably could use a few tweaks before it is competitive with the Honda but this could be just the competition that Honda was looking for in order to keep going in the IRL.

Very late in the game before Chevy left the IRL, Cosworth sold the design rights, as well as all the existing iron, lock, stock and barrel, to Chevy.

A new 3.5L NA engine would have to be reengineered.

[Breeze]

Very late in the game before Chevy left the IRL, Cosworth sold the design rights, as well as all the existing iron, lock, stock and barrel, to Chevy.

A new 3.5L NA engine would have to be reengineered.

Of course we won't know until something actually happens, but that does make the DP01 and 2.65L turbo combination the most economical solution to bringing a new chassis to IRL (will it still be called that?). Honda would not have to start from scratch on an engine, just do what Cosworth did and dumb down the 900HP mill they had been using.

Here agian though, we can't really count on any of the decision makers to do the smart thing. Formula has been a problem in the past. We certainly can't count on egos not getting in the way of an easy, economical decision.

[MAX_THRUST]

There is a possibility Toyota may return, GM may return. Just because they left doesn't mean the door is shut for them to return, maybe not this year but interest will definately be up with a merged series, if I were Ford I'd get back in, If I were GM I'd get back in. It'll be cheaper now then a coming bqck when the series is doing well. That and you get more of a say on what you would like to do now than later...........

[bblocker68]

Cosworth and Honda probably have a few F1 V-10 engines laying around. I bet the DP-01 and DP-09 could accommodate them.

Why not have a clean slate so there would be no favoritism?

[Civic]

So what engines were being used in the GP Masters Reynards?

[electron]

who owns Offenhauser or the name rights these days?
(serious question!)

[MAX_THRUST]

I think the GP MASTERS ran with normally aspirated.............????? Cosworths but I'm not sure of it now I think about it.

They used Cooper tyres though, I remember that fact very clearly.

Some one pass me my teeth, there in a glass next to my memory...

[vintage]

Didn't GP Masters use the old Reynard chassis?

[SoCalPVguy]

who owns Offenhauser or the name rights these days?
(serious question!)

I think the rights are owned by (Louis) Meyer - Drake but they are out of business, more info...

Gordon Eliot White's excellent book on the superb Offenhauser racing engine is a must-have for anyone with even the slightest interest in the remarkable "Offy". Technical excellence and superb design allowed the Offenhauser to dominate at the highest levels of auto racing, for a phenomenal span of more than 50 years.

The Offy was far, far ahead of its time, in the days when double-overhead cams and 16 valves in an inline four-cylinder engine was an exotic design. The "little four with the big punch" was practically invincible in fair head-to-head competition. It took hidden deals and special targeted rules changes to finally "rulebook" the Offy off the racetrack. The big auto names with the deep pockets, investing tens of millions of dollars in high-tech quad-cam 32-valve V8's, did not like having them blown off the track by a 4-cylinder engine design more than 50 years old!

In 1975, Porsche engineers analyzed an Offenhauser. The engineers were understandably impressed by the 1000 HP Offenhauser. But they were astounded most by the Offy's ability to maintain high power over a long RPM range. The long power band was clearly a clue to the Offy's legendary ability to launch cars out of turns, and almost certainly the reason the Offy was practically invincible on the racetrack. After analyzing the Offy, Porsche decided against fielding an Indianapolis race team. The famous Porsche 6-cylinder "Boxer" engine, simply could not compete with the powerful Offenhauser 4-cylinder.

Over it's amazing 50+ year racing history, the Offenhauser 4-cylinder raced head-to-head against a fantastic array of engines, including big NASCAR V8's, jet turbines, Cummins turbo-diesels, formula-one engines, and many other exotic power plants. On a level playing field, the 270, 255 and 220 CID normally-aspirated Offy's reigned supreme, against all challengers.

From 1965 to 1971, as the turbocharged era arrived at Indianapolis, and the Indy roadster was made obsolete by the new rear-engined cars, the normally-aspirated Offy's domination ended. The Meyer-Drake shop building the engine began perfecting the Offy-turbo, and adapting the engine to rear-engined use. The Offy-turbo roared back with consecutive Indy wins in 72, 73, 74, 75 and 76, signaling a new era of Offenhauser domination.

It was not to be. From 1977 on, it appears that "back-room" deals resulting in rules changes specially targeted at the Offenhauser, essentially rulebooked the engine out of competition. A small engine shop like Meyer-Drake, lacked the deep pockets required to have the "persuasive" clout of the big manufacturers.

Effectively blocked from fair competition, Meyer-Drake's operations slowly ceased. The Offenhauser 4-cylinder then passed into history.

More than a quarter of a century has now passed. The primeval, deep guttural roar of the Offy, impressive as it was, is only a memory.

It appears, however, that the Offy still rules in absence.

In the years following the Offy's forced retirement, it is notable that no 4-cylinder DOHC 16 valve engines have been permitted in Indy-league racing. That fact speaks volumes about the little engine that couldn't be beaten when the same rules applied to all.

[Breeze]

From 1965 to 1971, as the turbocharged era arrived at Indianapolis, and the Indy roadster was made obsolete by the new rear-engined cars, the normally-aspirated Offy's domination ended. The Meyer-Drake shop building the engine began perfecting the Offy-turbo, and adapting the engine to rear-engined use. The Offy-turbo roared back with consecutive Indy wins in 72, 73, 74, 75 and 76, signaling a new era of Offenhauser domination.

Those are the Offy's I remember hearing over the tinny speaker of a 19" B&W Tv. Even on that lousy set they sounded AWESOME!!!. It would be awfully cool if the Offy were allowed to come back.

[Breeze]

Cosworth and Honda probably have a few F1 V-10 engines laying around. I bet the DP-01 and DP-09 could accommodate them.

Why not have a clean slate so there would be no favoritism?

That's one helluva idea. Supposedly the DP-09 is designed to fit a NA V12 by Menard in England.

Come to think of it, they both have NA F1 V8 engines on their shelves.

[Jag_Warrior]

There is a possibility Toyota may return, GM may return. Just because they left doesn't mean the door is shut for them to return, maybe not this year but interest will definately be up with a merged series, if I were Ford I'd get back in, If I were GM I'd get back in. It'll be cheaper now then a coming bqck when the series is doing well. That and you get more of a say on what you would like to do now than later...........

Yes, about the same possibility that the Dahm triplets will share a hot tub with me next Saturday night.

At best, Ford might throw a bone and do a cheapo badge for another Cosworth N/A design (if that company isn't also saddled by Amigo infighting).

On top of being in dire financial straits, GM is focused on engines and racing series that feature road type cars. Knowing a bit about Cerberus, I'd wager that they wouldn't do an Indy style engine with Chrysler/Dodge. Rumor is, they've already started trimming expenditures in NASCAR. Toyota doesn't have a reputation for returning once they leave a series. They're in NASCAR for a reason. And they're showing it right now, as they're leading the most watched and popular race in America: the Daytona 500. Toyota is also putting more funding into NHRA sponsorship programs.

But if Cosworth went it alone, isn't there still a mandate from the IRL that an engine maker MUST have manufacturer badging, as well as a certain level of guaranteed promotional support???

[DRC]

How 'bout Mazda badging the Cosworth motors? Honda would like it (they like competition) and it could be the beginning (continuation?) of Mazda's involvement in high level racing.

Just a thought...

[BenRoethig]

That Cosworth engine, though strong when it ran as a Chevy, is a couple years behind as is the Panoz IRL chassis. Look, they're gong to be running in 2008 and 2009 exactly what the IRL ran last year. It's the only way it can be done practically. When the updated car premieres, they'll be able to add additional chassis and engine manufacturers. 2008 is about getting the cars on track, 2009 is about getting a permanent schedule, and 2010 is when they can deal with the technical stuff. You can't just snap your fingers and have everything be together. There has to be transition time.