More fuel for the fire...

[CCFan]

Just up on AR1's Rumors page today:

IRL Champ Car merger talks heat up In the last two days we have been hearing rumors from a couple of different sources that merger talks between the IRL and Champ Car have heated up again and that a possible deal, if it were to happen, could be days away.

If true, we think it would not be announced for 2008 (too late for that) but more likely for the 2009 or even 2010 season. We have heard these merger rumors before, but each time the talks broke down. However, this time our sources think it may finally get done and Tony Cotman may be the guy helping it along. There are many issues to deal with - cars, engines, venues, Indy Pro and Atlantics, and a whole host of other contracts. Mark C

[LTalbot]

If true, and that's a Big IF, I personally hope it at least includes some Champ Car participation in the Indy 500 this year.

[Cart750hp]

True or not, folks, the merger is more likely to happen. Both sides are now willing to work together and agree that one series is better is just a start. This was not the case more than 4 years ago but as the years of hopeless job by CC ownership, the anti-IRL from the most loyal people in CC are now accepting the reality. So whether 2009 or 2010, it has to be done.

No, I don't care what the fanatics say against IRL or against merger. Whatever these fanatics say will be irrelevant and always irrelevant when both series agreed to merge. No clue where they get their Kool Aids that they think being a close-minded are so influencing CC management. Too funny.

Rumor or not, as we speak and the current status of both series, unification is more likely to happen.

[heelntoe]

True or not, folks, the merger is more likely to happen. Both sides are now willing to work together and agree that one series is better is just a start. This was not the case more than 4 years ago but as the years of hopeless job by CC ownership, the anti-IRL from the most loyal people in CC are now accepting the reality. So whether 2009 or 2010, it has to be done.

No, I don't care what the fanatics say against IRL or against merger. Whatever these fanatics say will be irrelevant and always irrelevant when both series agreed to merge. No clue where they get their Kool Aids that they think being a close-minded are so influencing CC management. Too funny.

Rumor or not, as we speak and the current status of both series, unification is more likely to happen.

Unification is the word as merger does not apply from a business deal standpoint to the deal that goes down...imo, of course

[mark123]

i hope it results in a new car and not just everyone buying IRL cars. the Dp01 is a pretty cool looking car, not sure on its potential on an oval mind you.

fingers crossed

[Cart750hp]

i hope it results in a new car and not just everyone buying IRL cars. the Dp01 is a pretty cool looking car, not sure on its potential on an oval mind you.

fingers crossed

I agree, but I have no doubt in my mind that if these two are joining forces together, the product will be much better.

[Cart750hp]

Unification is the word as merger does not apply from a business deal standpoint to the deal that goes down...imo, of course

I know what you mean.

[Jacques]

I agree, but I have no doubt in my mind that if these two are joining forces together, the product will be much better.

Two irrelevant players joining forces ? That is like asking Switzerland and Luxembourg to join forces against the US :rolleyes:
"No doubt." Really ? OK.

[994ever]

I agree, but I have no doubt in my mind that if these two are joining forces together, the product will be much better.

I think the misapprehension you may be labouring under is that "better" necessarily means "good".

Realistically, seeing what Tony George has done to the sport and what the people running CC have done to it, if any of those entities is in charge of a unified series I have NO confidence that the product produced will be good. Better than the crap we have now, maybe...but still crap.

[keysersoze]

i hope it results in a new car and not just everyone buying IRL cars. the Dp01 is a pretty cool looking car, not sure on its potential on an oval mind you.

fingers crossed

The current Dallara must be getting close to the end of its cycle. Perhaps it stays the spec chassis for a year (or two) while Panoz develops an update package to its current DP-01 which will make it an effective all-around chassis. This way, the current CCWS teams can eventually use their equipment while they merge using heavily discounted or, perhaps, free equipment from Dallara, courtesy of TG.

[timshag]

This is the biggest IF I have heard about in a long time.
We'll see.

But I echo what folks are saying about the DP01. Let's keep that.
They were made to race ovals as well.
The Dallaras are just down right butt ugly.

Keep the turbo v8's as well.
I hate the dumbed down Hondas.
They don't make any sense at all.

Open wheel cars need to have technology to show case.

[EagleEye]

There seems to be quite a bit of activity going here in Indy, as the top of level of both series.

With both series looking at the same or reduced car counts, it seems they are doing there best to try and come up with a solution.

From the little that is being said, I think we might get a solid long term solution, and some hybrid short term solutions.

We'll just have to wait and see...fingers crossed.

[Sandfly]

Unless Tg has significantly changed his position with regard to races, series ownership and control issues, then this is speculation which is designed to distract CC from it's own progress.

A series designed with TG's vision, even with the help of TC is not the answer to save AOW. Save Indy and oval racing - maybe....

[mark123]

what ever it takes to get this thing under one roof .... the racing in both camps is better then f1

[Cart750hp]

Two irrelevant players joining forces ? That is like asking Switzerland and Luxembourg to join forces against the US :rolleyes:
"No doubt." Really ? OK.

How pathetic thinking it really is? You compared two little countries in Europe to IRL and CC. Another example how desperate the fanatics kind of thinking just to ignore what really is going on inside CC and IRL. Poor fanatics.

[Cart750hp]

I think the misapprehension you may be labouring under is that "better" necessarily means "good".

Realistically, seeing what Tony George has done to the sport and what the people running CC have done to it, if any of those entities is in charge of a unified series I have NO confidence that the product produced will be good. Better than the crap we have now, maybe...but still crap.

Realistically? Did you just asked that? Coz reading through your post it's more of another ***** off fanatic to TG than..."realistically".

Whatever the product of the two, it will be better than what CC and IRL has now.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Like some others I don't think the unfication will necesarily produce a better product from the racing point of view. From the organizational point of view there's little chance that this bunch of egomaniacs will be better at resolving issues together than apart. What if they don't get along? Another split?

[MAX_THRUST]

A merged series means all the past years history gets merged as well. Which I think is a good thing. We won't be talking about the IRL or CCWS, it will be just history, the history can be said in a way which does not confuse new fans.

Secondly HONDA know how to build 2.65 litre Turbo engines they did it for years, would they be interested in reintroducing those engines to run along side the Cosworths, who may after a year or two have a badge put on them.

I really hope the two sides can get both series to share events this year. None of it is impossible.....merge the two safety teams, two support races.....etc

[ShiftingGears]

How pathetic thinking it really is? You compared two little countries in Europe to IRL and CC. Another example how desperate the fanatics kind of thinking just to ignore what really is going on inside CC and IRL. Poor fanatics.

It's called an analogy.

[CHAMPMOM]

From time to time I come to this forum to catch up on the comings/goings of Champcar.

Once again, the talk of merger is front and center. After nearly 10 years of the "merger" chat, I'll believe it when I see it.

By now, don't some of you feel like Charlie Brown when Lucy pulls the football?

[timshag]

From time to time I come to this forum to catch up on the comings/goings of Champcar.

Once again, the talk of merger is front and center. After nearly 10 years of the "merger" chat, I'll believe it when I see it.

By now, don't some of you feel like Charlie Brown when Lucy pulls the football?

Now that is a great analogy!

If TG is pulls the football this time, I say ChampCar should sue his arse!

[indycool]

Well, what would TG be sued for? What would the CC owners be sued for? Seems they're pretty close to striking a bargain between them.

[sanguin]

Now that is a great analogy!

If TG is pulls the football this time, I say ChampCar should sue his arse!

Yep. RM and TG.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Well, what would TG be sued for? What would the CC owners be sued for? Seems they're pretty close to striking a bargain between them.

Well, if this rumoured hostile take-over (some call it merger) happens, CC owners could be sued for not honouring a bunch of race and licencing contracts with a number of promoters and cities.

[indycool]

Dr., the messages I responded to were just statements out of hate with no reasoning included. It would be prudent for existing deals to be accounted for in whatever way.

In truth, I expect those are minimal. Can Lanigan give up Houston and Cleveland for it to be one series? Sure. They weren't making money anyway. I expect that's why Toronto isn't listed among the "keepers" because Forsythe owns that. Mexico almost canceled last year because of no Mexican drivers (that may have been contractual). The inclusion of Surfers would indicate that contract still has time to run...same with Edmonton. Both solid deals with good management, even though Edmonton was losing money and Surfers is at the whim of the Queensland government.

It might surprise you how late contracts actually are signed. RA and the European rounds are track rentals and CC probably hadn't signed 'em yet. Last I heard about Laguna was that the track rental wasn't signed.

So I doubt that a flood of lawsuits is coming. If so, they simply bankrupt out CC, Chapter 7. Then let 'em sue.

[sanguin]

Dr., the messages I responded to were just statements out of hate with no reasoning included. It would be prudent for existing deals to be accounted for in whatever way.

In truth, I expect those are minimal. Can Lanigan give up Houston and Cleveland for it to be one series? Sure. They weren't making money anyway. I expect that's why Toronto isn't listed among the "keepers" because Forsythe owns that. Mexico almost canceled last year because of no Mexican drivers (that may have been contractual). The inclusion of Surfers would indicate that contract still has time to run...same with Edmonton. Both solid deals with good management, even though Edmonton was losing money and Surfers is at the whim of the Queensland government.

It might surprise you how late contracts actually are signed. RA and the European rounds are track rentals and CC probably hadn't signed 'em yet. Last I heard about Laguna was that the track rental wasn't signed.

So I doubt that a flood of lawsuits is coming. If so, they simply bankrupt out CC, Chapter 7. Then let 'em sue.

Link please, I don't think anyone has seen the contracts for any CC races.Especially RA or the European races.How would you know any of that?

Lanigan just signed an extension on his contract for Cleveland. There is no indication that he wants to or would give up either of his events. Mexico City has a contract as does Toronto and Edmonton, I believe they will be part of negotiations if it ever gets that far. There was nothing in the contract about Mexican drivers, that was the promoters wish only. The contract for the race was always there.


"Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven stressed that no offer has been made from either series and, therefore, no deal has been agreed to, as has been reported on the Internet."

[indycool]

Oh, you've seen the Mexican contract? I haven't. But they were not building grandstands, there was no TV of the series, etc., last year until suddenly Martinez and Dominguez got rides for the last two races. Strange, indeed, if they didn't hafta.

Toronto? It was a loser for Molson even with the sponsor-promoter advantages and some construction is scheduled around there that might well hamper the course. There was talk this past winter of moving it. And Forsythe saw the bottom line for the race for the first time.

Lanigan? He's a partner in N/H/L and the other two partners have voiced approval of a melding of the two series. Besides, unless things have changed, CC INHERITED CART's contract with the City of Cleveland and may well have made the deal the same in Houston, then made a deal with Lanigan to back it. If those cities want to sue, then can sue CC and find no money or CC in Chapter 7 if the melding goes through.

Your quote in bold from KK, who has claimed to be in the dark throughout the deal and said in an SI.com piece that he text messaged TG last night to find out what's going on. He oughta ask his partners.

[clydekart]

Are you kidding me! All temporary street races require contracts and are planned years in advance as it is not easy disrupt major city traffic routes.
It might be easier to change a purpose-built race course but contracts are in place. Also, what about all the people who already bought tickets and find out the race is cancelled--possible class-action.

[gofastandwynn]

Are you kidding me! All temporary street races require contracts and are planned years in advance as it is not easy disrupt major city traffic routes.
It might be easier to change a purpose-built race course but contracts are in place. Also, what about all the people who already bought tickets and find out the race is cancelled--possible class-action.

And looked how many of them are dumped just a quickly. In the last 2 years both Phoenix, Denver and San Jose have been on the schedule then canceled.

What happened to all of the fans who bought tickets to Phoenix last year?

[gofastandwynn]

Now that is a great analogy!

If TG is pulls the football this time, I say ChampCar should sue his arse!

Looking at the reports it looks like it is KK pulling the football. Should the IRL sue his "arse"?

[indycool]

Like Phoenix, or the ill-fated Texas CART race or the Fontana CART race, they merely get their money back.

[cartpix]

Also, what about all the people who already bought tickets and find out the race is cancelled--possible class-action.
You're kidding, class action suit for tickets that they will most likely get a refund for? WOW!

Sorry, due to recent developments, I cut my msf vacation short.

Are there mass suicides over at CCF?

Jeff

[Easy Drifter]

Sometimes I almost think Sanguin is Sid Priddle!

[ChaimWitz]

Sometimes I almost think Sanguin is Sid Priddle!

Actually, he has a Cipperesque zeal in his writing style flavored with a Higdonish optimism.

[bblocker68]

Wow, it's like a reunion of sorts. Okay, how about a forum unification?? :)

[indycool]

I doubt it. Priddle wasn't around CC long before he got outta there last fall.

[lele]

This has gone way past who did a naughty thing. Both sides suck. Now it should be soley about fixing open wheel racing in America ASAP. Fans are dropping like flies each year, so if it doesn't get resolved now, it's pointless. Oh, and by the way, Champ Car is a joke to most in the industry and beyond... no one knows what it is or cares. That's reason enough to not pretend the value is the same. It's not.

[sanguin]

This has gone way past who did a naughty thing. Both sides suck. Now it should be soley about fixing open wheel racing in America ASAP. Fans are dropping like flies each year, so if it doesn't get resolved now, it's pointless. Oh, and by the way, Champ Car is a joke to most in the industry and beyond... no one knows what it is or cares. That's reason enough to not pretend the value is the same. It's not.

Then why does TG want CC teams and events?

[cartpix]

Sometimes I almost think Sanguin is Sid Priddle!


No, I've spoken to Sid, on several occations. He's intelligent, well spoken, and most of all, knows Champ Car isn't in as good a shape as sanguin thinks it is.

Jeff

[Chaparral66]

Guys, I guess I am as hopeful as anyone, but I am still skeptical of trying to hammer this through for 2008. If an agreement can be made, doesn't 2009 make more sense?

[indycool]

On that one, Chap, we don't know what we don't know. My guess is that it's now or never. The only hangup appears to be Motegi and Long Beach, and guess TG, Robert Clarke and Eidswick are going to Japan tomorrow to see what they can work out.

Funny...someone assigned you, me and Chaimwitz to put a deal together....I'm glad the big kids beat us to the punch.

I think there's probably a timeline here that isn't readily seen.

TG announces a TEAM payoff structure of $1.2 million per car to run the IRL season. This triggers interest from independent CC car owners, who either explore it or ask The Amigos for $1.2 million each to stay, or both. That brings everybody to the table back in November or December. And it evolves from there to now and no one knows it, including CC car owners, until Miller's commentary a couple weeks ago and thar' she blows. From there, it's Larry the Cable Guy sayin', "get 'er done."

[FlatChatRacer]

IndyCool,

I think you know more than you are letting on or are allowed to reveal in this forum. I agree wholeheartedly with one of your previous statements though.

If the takeover of Champ Car does not happen in 2008, then Champ Car will simply implode and be worthless to the owners. It's now or never.

I thought some of the classic road circuits would be retained, but that does not seem likely. I can only hope that the unified schedule finds room for Road America and Portland in 2009, if not 2008.

I knew there would be exciting developments before the new season started. However, I never guessed that things would move this quickly.

In my opinion, Champ Car must have been in a parlous financial state. Make no mistake, the IRL are devouring Champ Car without leaving many traces of what it was before.

Anyway, I would rather see Champ Car end it's miserable existence, than watch the owners continue to make a mess of the series.

[Chaparral66]

On that one, Chap, we don't know what we don't know. My guess is that it's now or never. The only hangup appears to be Motegi and Long Beach, and guess TG, Robert Clarke and Eidswick are going to Japan tomorrow to see what they can work out.

Funny...someone assigned you, me and Chaimwitz to put a deal together....I'm glad the big kids beat us to the punch.

I think there's probably a timeline here that isn't readily seen.

TG announces a TEAM payoff structure of $1.2 million per car to run the IRL season. This triggers interest from independent CC car owners, who either explore it or ask The Amigos for $1.2 million each to stay, or both. That brings everybody to the table back in November or December. And it evolves from there to now and no one knows it, including CC car owners, until Miller's commentary a couple weeks ago and thar' she blows. From there, it's Larry the Cable Guy sayin', "get 'er done."

This is my point from earlier threads. I don't trust ultimatums, if that was what this offer came down to. Trying to push this through so quickly may do more harm than good. I can understand trying to add some punch to the Indy 500 in having more competitors try to qualify for the race, but CCWS still has some committments for this year that shouldn't be dropped cold turkey. I'd rather see them forge an agreement, and make 2009 the real starting point. That way, you'd have a lot more time to build some media momentum and really promote an exciting Indy 500. Try to do it this year, I think you raise as many questions as you answer.

[FlatChatRacer]

Chapparral66,

I don't think the Champ Car owners are in a financial position to negotiate a 2009 scenario.

I suspect they are in trouble because a few teams are holding them to ransom, so to speak.

KK and GF are between a rock and a hard place. It looks like, agree to the takeover and maybe make a little money, or refuse to acquiesce and lose a ton of money.

I don't think they want to lose any more money.

[Chaparral66]

Chapparral66,

I don't think the Champ Car owners are in a financial position to negotiate a 2009 scenario.

I suspect they are in trouble because a few teams are holding them to ransom, so to speak.

KK and GF are between a rock and a hard place. It looks like, agree to the takeover and maybe make a little money, or refuse to acquiesce and lose a ton of money.

I don't think they want to lose any more money.

OK, assuming that is true, then it might be safe to say that the teams, sick of the war, began putting in their $.02 when they heard talks begin again, and maybe issued some directives of their own to get a deal done. Like to be a fly on the wall for some of those backroom discussions. I hope some more reports come out soon that might reveal some details such as that.

[weeflyonthewall]

When US open wheel is in the toilet what do you expect? Ever consider Cotman was a corporate plant to effect a change of heart in the evil world of twIRL?

[gofastandwynn]

Ever consider Cotman was a corporate plant to effect a change of heart in the evil world of twIRL?

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Oh wait, you're serious....

[indycool]

FCR, I really don't know any more than I've posted and some of my posts have been guesswork connecting dots. I think Robin Miller is probably ahead of everybody on whatever news there is. I HAVE heard that all the work that's been done through discussions rests pretty critically on the Motegi-Long Beach situation being resolved.

For example, I would think, at this point, the IRL would know exactly where it was going to be able to steer CC teams to Dallaras and Honda would know exactly how many engines it might need to have on hand ready to go. TG's quotes in the Indianapolis Star would indicate that other schedule changes, if necessary, have been discussed with promoters, presumably on an "if come" basis. I would imagine that ABC/ESPN is well into the loop.

Just IMO, but I agree that the CC owners are between a rock and a hard place. The independent CC car owners don't seem to be real happy about not knowing till they read speedtv.com that their DP-01s could be flower pots on a moment's notice and they might look somewhat favorably to the new IRL TEAM subsidy of $1.2 million per car in '08 AND/OR the merger details as we have read them to be. The CC owners can either turn it down, be whipsawed by the CC race teams and throw more money down the drain in '08 or do the deal, absorb their losses so far and not throw good money after bad.

Chap, this is why I think it better for the CC owners in '08 than '09.....somewhere along the way, it's good money after bad.