Gardening..

[seppefan]

I asked every team owner last weekend (and will we run that feature in a couple weeks on SPEED REPORT) and nobody had any interest. Forsythe said if TGeorge gave them cars and engines he'd be interested and I think Haas would like to go but not Paul Newman. It's crazy to have a six week gap and Indy open because Champ Car should be there but most of those guys can barely afford to run CC let alone come up with another million or so. But TG would be smart to buy rides for Tracy, Bourdais, Wilson, Junky, ect. instead of throwing it away on guys who only drive Indy cars once a year or once every seven years.

----------
Just read this from april 07. RM interviewed on the upcoming 07 season and talking about the 500.

Just made me wonder if GF unwittingly sowed the idea in TG's head.....

" Forsthye said if TGeorge gave them cars and engines he'd be interested "

[FerrrariF1]

I asked every team owner last weekend (and will we run that feature in a couple weeks on SPEED REPORT) and nobody had any interest. Forsythe said if TGeorge gave them cars and engines he'd be interested and I think Haas would like to go but not Paul Newman. It's crazy to have a six week gap and Indy open because Champ Car should be there but most of those guys can barely afford to run CC let alone come up with another million or so. But TG would be smart to buy rides for Tracy, Bourdais, Wilson, Junky, ect. instead of throwing it away on guys who only drive Indy cars once a year or once every seven years.

----------
Just read this from april 07. RM interviewed on the upcoming 07 season and talking about the 500.

Just made me wonder if GF unwittingly sowed the idea in TG's head.....

" Forsthye said if TGeorge gave them cars and engines he'd be interested "

What six week gap in the schedule? Champcar has a race in Laguna in May. I am against any Champcar team or driver doing a one off at Indy for a number of reasons. First look at what happened to Bruno, he was taken out by an idiot IRL driver. Second everyone knows that Tracy should have won the race yet they changed to rule and gave the race to Helio so we know that any Champcar driver or team will not be treated fairly. Third is why prop up the Indy 500 with talented drivers? It only help George and not Champcar. There is no reason why Champcar should help George sell the place out like it used to be, raise the TV numbers and regain the interest in the race.

If George wants to have one series and combine forces for the good of open wheeled racing then fine but to give George total control I am totally against.

[tbyars]

What six week gap in the schedule? Champcar has a race in Laguna in May. I am against any Champcar team or driver doing a one off at Indy for a number of reasons. First look at what happened to Bruno, he was taken out by an idiot IRL driver. Second everyone knows that Tracy should have won the race yet they changed to rule and gave the race to Helio so we know that any Champcar driver or team will not be treated fairly. Third is why prop up the Indy 500 with talented drivers? It only help George and not Champcar. There is no reason why Champcar should help George sell the place out like it used to be, raise the TV numbers and regain the interest in the race.

If George wants to have one series and combine forces for the good of open wheeled racing then fine but to give George total control I am totally against.

First of all, before you start getting defensive, you should read the post more carefully. Seppefan clearly stated that the first part of the post was from April, 2007 where there was indeed a 6-week break in the schedule during the May time frame.

Next, it always amazes me as to the REAL reason CC diehards are scared to death of teams running the Indy 500. The last time CART teams started running the 500 in any numbers (this excludes the one-offs a few years ago by NHR), within about 2 years, they had all moved to the IRL. Considering this, if I were a CCWS diehard, I wouldn't want my teams running at Indy, either!

[Speeds up for Corners]

First of all, before you start getting defensive, you should read the post more carefully. Seppefan clearly stated that the first part of the post was from April, 2007 where there was indeed a 6-week break in the schedule during the May time frame.

Next, it always amazes me as to the REAL reason CC diehards are scared to death of teams running the Indy 500. The last time CART teams started running the 500 in any numbers (this excludes the one-offs a few years ago by NHR), within about 2 years, they had all moved to the IRL. Considering this, if I were a CCWS diehard, I wouldn't want my teams running at Indy, either!

If you think this is the real reason CC fans don't want CC teams to run Indy, then all I can say is you're delusional. We CC fans that don't want CC to run Indy (and I'm sure you're aware that there are CC fans who are still Indy centric) is because we don't want any CC team to support Tony George and the IRL, in any maner, whatsoever. Why should a CC team pull money out of their CC team effort to run Indy? Oh, I know the standard answer. It could give them a chance to get a real sponsor. But we all now that these days, entering Indy is not anywhere near a guarantee of getting sponsorship. Just look at the struggles IRL teams are having this off season for proof of that, and they already are Indy teams. Do you think for a second that if a big money sponsor offered a CC team enough incentive to run Indy there would not be at least one that would accept the offer for at least an Indy only effort? Yet no CC teams jumped on TG's offer, because, at least in part, there are no sponsors or ride buyers willing to pay the remaining costs above TG's offer to make it worth entering the 500, much less an entire IRL season.

The sad fact of the matter is sponsors find no value in either the IRL or CC. At least CC has drivers who are interested enough and able to find their own funding for a drive. While I know most IRL fans deride CC for it's ride buyers, in reality I bet many wish there were drivers with enough interest in the IRL to show up with money to help fill the IRL field. The obvious truth is, there are not many drivers looking to get into the IRL these days. Certainly more drivers want in to CC than the IRL, at least those with enough ambition an $$$ to make the effort.

Irl and CC fans constantly complain about the drivers they think deserve a CC seat but can't get in, Matos, RLR among others. Yet, where do you see this same outcry for all the drivers trying to get into the IRL who can't? Why, because the IRL is NOT a destination for top talent international race drivers. The IRL gets Milka, IV, Roth and the like. Drivers who have no chance of racing in serious international OW racing.

During this off season the IRL faithful like Robin Miller among others have spread rumors of CC drivers going to the IRL, like Justin Wilson, Dan Clarke, Nelson Phillipe even Katherine Legge, yet, none of these drivers are going to race in the IRL becasue there are no seats available as a result of no sponsors willing to put up the money and no drivers willing to buy a ride.

You can try and degrade CC all you like, but the facts are the IRL is no better off and IMO CC offers a better race product. It just could be that CC has more cars than the IRL this year especially after Indy. Not many more, and certainly not enough to gloat about. But all it takes is one.

[tbyars]

If you think this is the real reason CC fans don't want CC teams to run Indy, then all I can say is you're delusional. We CC fans that don't want CC to run Indy (and I'm sure you're aware that there are CC fans who are still Indy centric) is because we don't want any CC team to support Tony George and the IRL, in any maner, whatsoever. Why should a CC team pull money out of their CC team effort to run Indy? Oh, I know the standard answer. It could give them a chance to get a real sponsor. But we all now that these days, entering Indy is not anywhere near a guarantee of getting sponsorship. Just look at the struggles IRL teams are having this off season for proof of that, and they already are Indy teams. Do you think for a second that if a big money sponsor ......bla, bla, bla.....

And, of course, because the last time the CC (CART) drivers came in mass, they all ended up defecting, just as I said.

[Cart750hp]

If you think this is the real reason CC fans don't want CC teams to run Indy, then all I can say is you're delusional. We CC fans that don't want CC to run Indy (and I'm sure you're aware that there are CC fans who are still Indy centric) is because we don't want any CC team to support Tony George and the IRL, in any maner, whatsoever. Why should a CC team pull money out of their CC team effort to run Indy? Oh, I know the standard answer. It could give them a chance to get a real sponsor. But we all now that these days, entering Indy is not anywhere near a guarantee of getting sponsorship. Just look at the struggles IRL teams are having this off season for proof of that, and they already are Indy teams. Do you think for a second that if a big money sponsor offered a CC team enough incentive to run Indy there would not be at least one that would accept the offer for at least an Indy only effort? Yet no CC teams jumped on TG's offer, because, at least in part, there are no sponsors or ride buyers willing to pay the remaining costs above TG's offer to make it worth entering the 500, much less an entire IRL season.

The sad fact of the matter is sponsors find no value in either the IRL or CC. At least CC has drivers who are interested enough and able to find their own funding for a drive. While I know most IRL fans deride CC for it's ride buyers, in reality I bet many wish there were drivers with enough interest in the IRL to show up with money to help fill the IRL field. The obvious truth is, there are not many drivers looking to get into the IRL these days. Certainly more drivers want in to CC than the IRL, at least those with enough ambition an $$$ to make the effort.

Irl and CC fans constantly complain about the drivers they think deserve a CC seat but can't get in, Matos, RLR among others. Yet, where do you see this same outcry for all the drivers trying to get into the IRL who can't? Why, because the IRL is NOT a destination for top talent international race drivers. The IRL gets Milka, IV, Roth and the like. Drivers who have no chance of racing in serious international OW racing.

During this off season the IRL faithful like Robin Miller among others have spread rumors of CC drivers going to the IRL, like Justin Wilson, Dan Clarke, Nelson Phillipe even Katherine Legge, yet, none of these drivers are going to race in the IRL becasue there are no seats available as a result of no sponsors willing to put up the money and no drivers willing to buy a ride.

You can try and degrade CC all you like, but the facts are the IRL is no better off and IMO CC offers a better race product. It just could be that CC has more cars than the IRL this year especially after Indy. Not many more, and certainly not enough to gloat about. But all it takes is one.

Just another typical fanatic thinking. Same old story, getting more funny everyday.

I hate to sit here and waste another thread explaining the reality to guys like you since you guys are so stuck hating TG and IRL. But all I can say is read to what Eric Bachelart and other CC team owners. They would jump ship to IRL if they get a free supply and in order to get a potential sponsorship, they need to run INDY. Do you understand what that means? Do you or your ignorance is simply in-control of how you think? It means it's business for the owners and for the series. Sadly for a fanatic like you, you guys think this is personal. You guys are just way over your head now.

[mike15]

I asked every team owner last weekend (and will we run that feature in a couple weeks on SPEED REPORT) and nobody had any interest. Forsythe said if TGeorge gave them cars and engines he'd be interested and I think Haas would like to go but not Paul Newman. It's crazy to have a six week gap and Indy open because Champ Car should be there but most of those guys can barely afford to run CC let alone come up with another million or so. But TG would be smart to buy rides for Tracy, Bourdais, Wilson, Junky, ect. instead of throwing it away on guys who only drive Indy cars once a year or once every seven years.

----------
Just read this from april 07. RM interviewed on the upcoming 07 season and talking about the 500.

Just made me wonder if GF unwittingly sowed the idea in TG's head.....

" Forsthye said if TGeorge gave them cars and engines he'd be interested "
WAIT A MINUTE HERE.

As I recall last year 2007 at around this time KK made an offer to TG to let Champ Car teams compete in the I500 if TG supplied the cars and engines.

TG rejected the offer.

Now in 2008 TG makes a similar offer.

Is this one of those, if it's your idea its bad, but if the same offer is mine, it is good.

[cartpix]

WAIT A MINUTE HERE.

As I recall last year 2007 at around this time KK made an offer to TG to let Champ Car teams compete in the I500 if TG supplied the cars and engines.

TG rejected the offer.

Now in 2008 TG makes a similar offer.

Is this one of those, if it's your idea its bad, but if the same offer is mine, it is good.

TG did NOT make a similar offer. Nice try. KK wanted cars & engines for the INDY 500. ONE, (1), uno race. TG made an offer of cars & engines, for a SEASON. Much different.

Keep the hate going Mike.

Jeff

[mike15]

TG did NOT make a similar offer. Nice try. KK wanted cars & engines for the INDY 500. ONE, (1), uno race. TG made an offer of cars & engines, for a SEASON. Much different.

Keep the hate going Mike.

Jeff

The basic offer was the same, TG supplying cars.

This is the Champ Car forum and I am supporting Champ Car.
You on the other hand has the I hate CC thing going on.

[garyshell]

The basic offer was the same, TG supplying cars.

This is the Champ Car forum and I am supporting Champ Car.
You on the other hand has the I hate CC thing going on.

Since when is one race equal to an entire season??? Oh I know... when logic allows for disappointment to be construed as hate. Sure, if you can equate disappointment with hate, it's no stretch to equate one race with a full season, is it?

Gary

[mike15]

Since when is one race equal to an entire season??? Oh I know... when logic allows for disappointment to be construed as hate. Sure, if you can equate disappointment with hate, it's no stretch to equate one race with a full season, is it?

Gary
I'll remind you that this is the Champ Car forum.
It's not an Open Wheel Forum nor the IRL forum or the I500 forum.
It is the Champ Car forum.

[garyshell]

WAIT A MINUTE HERE.

As I recall last year 2007 at around this time KK made an offer to TG to let Champ Car teams compete in the I500 if TG supplied the cars and engines.

TG rejected the offer.

Now in 2008 TG makes a similar offer.

Is this one of those, if it's your idea its bad, but if the same offer is mine, it is good.


TG did NOT make a similar offer. Nice try. KK wanted cars & engines for the INDY 500. ONE, (1), uno race. TG made an offer of cars & engines, for a SEASON. Much different.

Keep the hate going Mike.

Jeff


The basic offer was the same, TG supplying cars.

This is the Champ Car forum and I am supporting Champ Car.
You on the other hand has the I hate CC thing going on.


Since when is one race equal to an entire season??? Oh I know... when logic allows for disappointment to be construed as hate. Sure, if you can equate disappointment with hate, it's no stretch to equate one race with a full season, is it?

Gary


I'll remind you that this is the Champ Car forum.
It's not an Open Wheel Forum nor the IRL forum or the I500 forum.
It is the Champ Car forum.


And I will remind you that your non-sequitur answer did not address my question at all. Please carefully review the above quotes so the ENTIRE context of this sub-thread is clear. YOU were the one talking about the IRL in the first message, no? I said NOTHING about the IRL anywhere in this exchange. What does your reply have to do with my message? Zip, Zero, Nada, Zilch. It is just another in a long line of attempts to divert the issue when someone directly challenges something you say.

So I repeat my two questions. How does one race = an entire season. What gives you the right to characterize someone's disappointment as hate?

Gary

[Blancvino]

I'd suggest you go back and read my post #7 in this thread, then read your post #8 - posted 3 hours later - and then tell me who keeps bringing up the IRL.

Stop making sense! ;)

[mike15]

I'd suggest you go back and read my post #7 in this thread, then read your post #8 - posted 3 hours later - and then tell me who keeps bringing up the IRL.
If that is the case post #1 should not have been allowed in the first place.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Let's not everyone waste another thread talking about the IRL in the CC forum. Subjects and posts directly relating to the "split" or the potential end of same can't be avoided. Taking up forum space just to complain about the other side is doing no one any good either here, or over in the IRL forum. Surely folks can find lots to talk about regarding their favorite series without constantly bringing up the competing series.

I think you should contemplate the idea of creating a common American Open Wheel forum separate from the IRL and Champ Car forums where fans of both series can make their points and get involved in debates. Whereas the the original two forums would be restricted for discussions about race and test results, team and driver changes etc.

[cartpix]

The basic offer was the same, TG supplying cars.

This is the Champ Car forum and I am supporting Champ Car.
You on the other hand has the I hate CC thing going on.

Actually, it's not. Tony George offered cars, this time. KK was asking for cars, last year. Asking is not an offer.

As for me hating CC, you haven't the slightest idea, what you are talking about. I have spent more time, money, & effort, on Champ Car and CART, than most people, on this forum. Who do you think takes all those pretty pictures, on a very popular pro Champ Car website.

Just because I'm frustrated with how Champ Car is run, doesn't mean I hate it. It's like watching someone you love (say a child) doing bad things. You don't like what they are doing, but you still love your child. Just because I don't spout off crap about how well Champ Car is doing, even though they're not, doesn't make me a hater.

You, on the other hand, are so filled with the hatred of Tony George, the IRL, and the Indy 500, you can't see the truth. You blame everything on Tony George. I think, if you could have, you would have blamed 911 & Hurricane Katrina on him too. Wake up, grow up, & get on with your life, before Tony George messes that up too.

Jeff

[nanders]

I think you should contemplate the idea of creating a common American Open Wheel forum separate from the IRL and Champ Car forums where fans of both series can make their points and get involved in debates. Whereas the the original two forums would be restricted for discussions about race and test results, team and driver changes etc.

I come here because this forum already is.

[mike15]

Just because I'm frustrated with how Champ Car is run, doesn't mean I hate it. It's like watching someone you love (say a child) doing bad things. You don't like what they are doing, but you still love your child. Just because I don't spout off crap about how well Champ Car is doing, even though they're not, doesn't make me a hater.


This quote from the Godfather talks about family.
Michael: Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.

Saying you love your child is easy but your actions speak volumns on how weak your are when it comes to defending your child.

[garyshell]

This quote from the Godfather talks about family.
Michael: Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.

Saying you love your child is easy but your actions speak volumns on how weak your are when it comes to defending your child.


What an absolute load of horse hockey! So when your kid does something dumb, you are suposed to just ignore it rather than telling the kid they did something wrong? Let me guess you or your folks read Dr. Spock. (And no, I am NOT talking about Star Trek.)

Gary

[spiritone]

Love your post mike. We're in a battle for our existence and there is no middle ground. People who come here and try to pass off there D&G as an constructive opinion need to be answered by the real champcar fans.


Constructive opinions need to see both sides of an arqument.

[Cart750hp]

Love your post mike. We're in a battle for our existence and there is no middle ground. People who come here and try to pass off there D&G as an constructive opinion need to be answered by the real champcar fans.

You must be the new guy. Did you just say "people who come here and try to pass off their D&G..."? Look how many post count do I have, look how many Garyshell, look how many Mark in Oshawa has, look at Indycool, look at tbyars, look at tamburello's, and look at Cartpix's. How many do you have so far? Look who are the people who come here and try to spread their delusional opinions need to be answered by the REALISTIC AOW/CC/IRL fans.

[spiritone]

Hey, your right i'm the new guy. I didn't know that it was the number of posts that made an opinion realistic.


Gee, i quess i'll have to post here more often so i can become a AOW/CC/ what was that other one again, fan

[Cart750hp]

Hey, your right i'm the new guy. I didn't know that it was the number of posts that made an opinion realistic.


Gee, i quess i'll have to post here more often so i can become a AOW/CC/ what was that other one again, fan

Exactly.

[garyshell]

Constructive opinions need to see both sides of an arqument.

Now THERE is something we can agree on!

Gary

[tbyars]

This quote from the Godfather talks about family.
Michael: Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.

Saying you love your child is easy but your actions speak volumes on how weak your are when it comes to defending your child.

Get a grip, Mike15. This is a sport. Entertainment. Not really much different than going out and throwing a frisbee with your dog. You need to gain some perspective. Badly. Very badly.

Family is an institution. AOWR is, for most of us, a cable TV show.

I'm sorry. I TRULY worry about someone who equates comments made on a racing forum on the internet with how we treat or defend our family or our children. I'd say folks like that need to take whatever actions necessary to get a little better grip on reality and some perspective on what place this all plays in our lives. Their wellbeing may well depend upon it.

[mike15]

Get a grip, Mike15. This is a sport. Entertainment. Not really much different than going out and throwing a frisbee with your dog. You need to gain some perspective. Badly. Very badly.

Family is an institution. AOWR is, for most of us, a cable TV show.

I'm sorry. I TRULY worry about someone who equates comments made on a racing forum on the internet with how we treat or defend our family or our children. I'd say folks like that need to take whatever actions necessary to get a little better grip on reality and some perspective on what place this all plays in our lives. Their wellbeing may well depend upon it.

This post is probably your best yet. It truly shows how serious you take these random comments. Your comment about AOWR being nothing more than a TV show indicates your passion for nothing more than a TV clicker. There is more to life than deciding which TV channel to watch.

"They say that blood is thicker than water. Maybe that's why we battle our own with more energy and gusto than we would ever expend on strangers."
David Assael, 1993

[ChaimWitz]

Love your post mike. We're in a battle for our existence and there is no middle ground. People who come here and try to pass off there D&G as an constructive opinion need to be answered by the real champcar fans.


Constructive opinions need to see both sides of an arqument.

Okay then, now that you are the latest self-appointed (or should I say self anointed?) judge of who qualifies as a "Real Champ Car Fan", please do provide the criteria. I suspect that in your view, it has something to with:

a) Hating Tony George;
b) Hating Tony George;
c) Hating Tony George;
d) All of the above.

Gee, what happens if your were a fan before there was a Tony George to hate?

As for constructive opinions, are you now also the self-appointed judge of this area as well?

FYI, I have always admired the drivers and most people on the teams. I just have no use for the current management of ChampCar nor the direction that they are headed. To pretend that what we have now in the CCWS is somehow the rightful heir to the traditions and heritage of American Open Wheel racing is simply false and delusional. Forgive me, but I have only been a fan for 44 years.

[sanguin]

That's your opinion. Others don't feel that way.

[mike15]

Okay then, now that you are the latest self-appointed (or should I say self anointed?) judge of who qualifies as a "Real Champ Car Fan", please do provide the criteria. I suspect that in your view, it has something to with:

a) Hating Tony George;
b) Hating Tony George;
c) Hating Tony George;
d) All of the above.

Gee, what happens if your were a fan before there was a Tony George to hate?

As for constructive opinions, are you now also the self-appointed judge of this area as well?

FYI, I have always admired the drivers and most people on the teams. I just have no use for the current management of ChampCar nor the direction that they are headed. To pretend that what we have now in the CCWS is somehow the rightful heir to the traditions and heritage of American Open Wheel racing is simply false and delusional. Forgive me, but I have only been a fan for 44 years.

Hating Tony George is the label placed on fans of Champ Car by people that are frustrated with the current situation of Open Wheel Racing in America.

If you support Champ Car your automatically put in the I HATE TONY GEORGE catagory.

Most of the Champ Car fans prefer the Champ Car product over the IRL product. As you have indicated most of the Champ Car fans prefer the driver team combinations over the stodgy same old same old of other series. If you are a FORD car fan or a Toyota car fan, does your potential new car purchase depend on the management of the company? Some how I doubt it.

The heritage of AOWR is based on ovals but when fans and track owners don't support OW racing on ovals what is a series owner to do? Keep throwing money at the limited available ovals with low attendance just to say you maintain a link to the heritage? Or do you explore new venues that can possibly renew interest in Open Wheel racing. When it comes to Open Wheel racing support, America is the problem. Foreign venues are not tied to that AOW heritage you speak of and support the Champ Car product by attendance not seen at American venues.

Honestly if the IRL was not tied to Indy would any race fan support that product?

This debate has more to do with the product put on the track than if you agree or disagree with management.

[bblocker68]

That's your opinion. Others don't feel that way.


"Others" would be Mike15, you and who else?

You guys should talking about Sebring and not this garbage that's been re-hashed over and over.

[garyshell]

Hating Tony George is the label placed on fans of Champ Car by people that are frustrated with the current situation of Open Wheel Racing in America.

And more often than not, a prerequisite for being included in the "true OWRS fan club". BTW I hate "...king George".



The heritage of AOWR is based on ovals but when fans and track owners don't support OW racing on ovals what is a series owner to do? Keep throwing money at the limited available ovals with low attendance just to say you maintain a link to the heritage? Or do you explore new venues that can possibly renew interest in Open Wheel racing.


Hmmm, why is it there are only TWO options here? What about keeping the ovals that ARE attended?


Honestly if the IRL was not tied to Indy would any race fan support that product?

No, probably not. But it IS tied to Indy. That IS the reality. And because of that, Madison Ave. is interested in sponsoring cars. And because they are interested in sponsoring cars there are consumer related sponsors on cars. And because of THAT, there are folks who do support the product, folks who are not die hard race fans.



This debate has more to do with the product put on the track than if you agree or disagree with management.

Your debate make take that scope. Some of us are concerned that if the management continues with moves like this RIDICULOUS television deal there may very well not be any product to put on the track.

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

Hating Tony George is the label placed on fans of Champ Car by people that are frustrated with the current situation of Open Wheel Racing in America.

If you support Champ Car your automatically put in the I HATE TONY GEORGE catagory.

Most of the Champ Car fans prefer the Champ Car product over the IRL product. As you have indicated most of the Champ Car fans prefer the driver team combinations over the stodgy same old same old of other series. If you are a FORD car fan or a Toyota car fan, does your potential new car purchase depend on the management of the company? Some how I doubt it.

The heritage of AOWR is based on ovals but when fans and track owners don't support OW racing on ovals what is a series owner to do? Keep throwing money at the limited available ovals with low attendance just to say you maintain a link to the heritage? Or do you explore new venues that can possibly renew interest in Open Wheel racing. When it comes to Open Wheel racing support, America is the problem. Foreign venues are not tied to that AOW heritage you speak of and support the Champ Car product by attendance not seen at American venues.

Honestly if the IRL was not tied to Indy would any race fan support that product?

This debate has more to do with the product put on the track than if you agree or disagree with management.

Mike15, A couple of points here. I do not assume that "True Champ Car Fans" should be placed in the "Hate Tony George" category. It is just my experience that those who try to tell me what a "True Champ Car Fan" is usually have "Hate Tony George" as a test of loyalty to "The Cause" (what ever that is). If being a "True ChampCar Fan" means wanting the series to race in America only six times a season with horrible TV ratings and few name drivers and teams, then I also question the wisdom and sanity of being a "True Champ Car Fan". Finally, I really do wonder how some folks here think it is fine that the series is obviously not finding any sustainable commercial viability or media presence. I am sorry Mike15, I don't think "America is the problem". This is a Paulie G String line of reasoning that attempts to divert attention from the failures that ChampCar has repeatedly had in trying to find any sort of audience beyond hard core purists and disaffected CART fans. From what I know, the CCWS European adventure is doomed to failure. Only Assen is anything close to a real deal and the other announced races in Europe seem like risky business to me.

As for the ChampCar product, It ain't what it used to be. Look back to 2002 or 1998. What exists now is like a cover band killing a great song. It pains me to acknowledge it but the IndyCar Series is now much closer to what CART was in its heyday than ChampCar is today. Take away NHL (or Walker for that matter) and ChampCar is done IMHO.

Back to a question you asked: "If you are a FORD car fan or a Toyota car fan, does your potential new car purchase depend on the management of the company?" Mike15, I think the market results speak to this. Which company is now number 1 in sales in the world? How many people buy a Toyota with a fundamental feeling of confidence. I could argue that this is the essence of Toyota's brand. That feeling of confidence begins with management and carries through the products they make and how they respond to their customers. I submit that this lack of intuitive confidence is what is killing ChampCar. You can't blame that on Tony George.

On to another question you asked: "Honestly if the IRL was not tied to Indy would any race fan support that product?" I think a clue to the answer to this can be found in the fate of CART and now ChampCar: Yes some would, but nearly enough to make it a real business.

[beachbum]

Most of the Champ Car fans prefer the Champ Car product over the IRL product.Well duh, of course they do. The problem isn't why Champ Car fans watch CCWS, but why there are so few of them


Foreign venues are not tied to that AOW heritage you speak of and support the Champ Car product by attendance not seen at American venues.Bingo, you get the prize. CCWS is NOT tied to the heritage of US open wheel racing. Which is why those US fans who do know and respect the heritage may not care for the product as much as someone who may view CCWS as an interesting curiosity

Honestly if the IRL was not tied to Indy would any race fan support that product?Sure, but probably not at the same level. But then again, take away the Super Bowl and football isn't the same. If the Daytona super speedway wasn't built, NASCAR would likely not be what it is today. It moved the racing from bullrings and dirt to high speed super speedways. The IRL would not even have been established if Indy didn't exist, so the argument is pointless. TG was never bashful about admitting that.


This debate has more to do with the product put on the track than if you agree or disagree with management.If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one around, does it make a sound? Heck, my local short track has fantastic racing, but it isn't going to draw much of a TV audience. If the management of any business is inept, the company may have a fantastic product, but it isn't going to survive. Survival isn't just about the racing, it is about the business of racing. And that is where CCWS is falling flat on its face.

[cartpix]

Hating Tony George is the label placed on fans of Champ Car by people that are frustrated with the current situation of Open Wheel Racing in America.

If you support Champ Car your automatically put in the I HATE TONY GEORGE catagory.



Is that anything like calling ME anti Champ Car?

Mr. Kettle paging Mr. Pot.

I'm on vacation. I'll stop back in, when I get back from Laguna Seca, next month.

Jeff

Jeff

[mike15]

As for the ChampCar product, It ain't what it used to be. Look back to 2002 or 1998. What exists now is like a cover band killing a great song. It pains me to acknowledge it but the IndyCar Series is now much closer to what CART was in its heyday than ChampCar is today. Take away NHL (or Walker for that matter) and ChampCar is done IMHO.


This is where you take liberties in your definitions and lump both series in a category you call product.

The product IS chassis and engine, the venue is the stage. The participants (teams and drivers) play the game.

[heelntoe]

This is where you take liberties in your definitions and lump both series in a category you call product.

The product IS chassis and engine, the venue is the stage. The participants (teams and drivers) play the game.

Well, if you read Pete Pistone's column today in Racing One, his opinoin about the product, the venue and the participants is to "put it out of its misery and like Old Yeller, few tears will be shed"...Yikes!!!

[garyshell]

This is where you take liberties in your definitions and lump both series in a category you call product.

The product IS chassis and engine, the venue is the stage. The participants (teams and drivers) play the game.


WRONG!!!!!! The product being delivered is the GAME. No one goes to the track or tunes in to see the chassis and engines sit in the paddock.

Gary

[ChaimWitz]

This is where you take liberties in your definitions and lump both series in a category you call product.

The product IS chassis and engine, the venue is the stage. The participants (teams and drivers) play the game.

Huh? So now that ChampCar doesn't use Lola and Reynard Chassis with Ford, Honda and Toyota engines (or for that matter, Offy engines and front engined cars) I guess the current product isn't really a ChampCar. Some "Real Champ Car Fans" might be forgiven for thinking a Panoz DP1 is merely an over hyped spec car that hasn't done much to improve the series.

But seriously, do you really think "The Product" is the rolling stock inventory of OWRS? Are you perhaps in "management" of the series? If so, that explains everything.

[mike15]

WRONG!!!!!! The product being delivered is the GAME. No one goes to the track or tunes in to see the chassis and engines sit in the paddock.

Gary
Maybe in your world the product make little difference.

The Champ Car fans do go to the track on Friday and Saturday to see and hear the product along with the main RACE on Sunday. There are countless pictures taken of the product in the paddock and around the track on Friday and Saturday. So when it comes to Champ Car racing it is the product that the fans go to see. Even in the CART days it was the product that the hard core OW fan appreciated.


As for the big games or events, the Superbowl would still be the Superbowl even with replacement players. The Superbowl event, is bigger than the game it represents. Superbowl tickets and advertising sell way before the teams have been decided.

[beachbum]

This is where you take liberties in your definitions and lump both series in a category you call product.

The product IS chassis and engine, the venue is the stage. The participants (teams and drivers) play the game.If that is what you think, it may explain a lot. The product is the SHOW. The show is what you get when you mix all of the elements together. The cars and equipment, the drivers, the teams in uniforms, even the pit carts and souvenir trailers and barkers are players in the SHOW. The venue is the stage, that is true, but just plop a few static cars on the stage and see how exciting the SHOW is. Not very. People want to watch action, they want excitement, they want to be entertained. This is an entertainment business, not a "game".

Take a few of the players off the stage, and the show goes stale. Other that a few hard core gear heads, no one cares much about the hardware. Its loud, it fast, its flashy. Good enough.

[mike15]

Huh? So now that ChampCar doesn't use Lola and Reynard Chassis with Ford, Honda and Toyota engines (or for that matter, Offy engines and front engined cars) I guess the current product isn't really a ChampCar. Some "Real Champ Car Fans" might be forgiven for thinking a Panoz DP1 is merely an over hyped spec car that hasn't done much to improve the series.

But seriously, do you really think "The Product" is the rolling stock inventory of OWRS? Are you perhaps in "management" of the series? If so, that explains everything.

Consider this, the DP01/Cosworth has been breaking track records set by the former CART products. But your probably in that group where the words "AND THAT IS A NEW TRACK RECORD" no longer applies to OW racing.

[ChaimWitz]

Consider this, the DP01/Cosworth has been breaking track records set by the former CART products. But your probably in that group where the words "AND THAT IS A NEW TRACK RECORD" no longer applies to OW racing.

Actually I am in the group of people who noticed that the DP01 Cosworth wasn't setting new track records everywhere it went... which made me very suspicious of the times set at Laguna Seca last year in an obvious PR ploy to beat the track record set by a an old Toyota F1 car with a second string F1 driver. Gotta love that P2P! I am also in the group of people who count grandstand seats at race tracks and I counted less than 25,000 at Long Beach last year there used to be nearly 40,000 seats there when real ChampCars and IndyCars ran.

[garyshell]

WRONG!!!!!! The product being delivered is the GAME. No one goes to the track or tunes in to see the chassis and engines sit in the paddock.

Gary


Maybe in your world the product make little difference.

The Champ Car fans do go to the track on Friday and Saturday to see and hear the product along with the main RACE on Sunday. There are countless pictures taken of the product in the paddock and around the track on Friday and Saturday. So when it comes to Champ Car racing it is the product that the fans go to see. Even in the CART days it was the product that the hard core OW fan appreciated.


As for the big games or events, the Superbowl would still be the Superbowl even with replacement players. The Superbowl event, is bigger than the game it represents. Superbowl tickets and advertising sell way before the teams have been decided.


Oh, stop you are killing me!

Where did I say or even imply that the product does not matter to me?

First you say "The product IS chassis and engine, the venue is the stage. The participants (teams and drivers) play the game" and then you say "So when it comes to Champ Car racing it is the product that the fans go to see." Racing is the GAME right??? I said the game is the product, didn't I?

So I have to ask is RACING the product or is it the chassis and the engines?

Would the Superbowl be the Superbowl if they all stood around showing off their snazzy equipment and didn't play the freakin' game?

Gary

<shakes head in total disbelief>

[mike15]

Would the Superbowl be the Superbowl if they all stood around showing off their snazzy equipment and didn't play the freakin' game?

Gary

<shakes head in total disbelief>

Hmmm
Let me think.
Its the Superbowl so there must be a game.
Does it matter which teams are playing?
No.

[mike15]

Actually I am in the group of people who noticed that the DP01 Cosworth wasn't setting new track records everywhere it went... .

Play your little games all you want, the point is, the DP01 is breaking track records. All things considered should the DP01 break every track record? Well it sure is exciting to think it has a chance at every track. That is better than not having a chance at all.

[garyshell]

This is where you take liberties in your definitions and lump both series in a category you call product.

The product IS chassis and engine, the venue is the stage. The participants (teams and drivers) play the game.


Oh, stop you are killing me!

Where did I say or even imply that the product does not matter to me?

First you say "The product IS chassis and engine, the venue is the stage. The participants (teams and drivers) play the game" and then you say "So when it comes to Champ Car racing it is the product that the fans go to see." Racing is the GAME right??? I said the game is the product, didn't I?

So I have to ask is RACING the product or is it the chassis and the engines?

Would the Superbowl be the Superbowl if they all stood around showing off their snazzy equipment and didn't play the freakin' game?

Gary

<shakes head in total disbelief>


Hmmm
Let me think.
Its the Superbowl so there must be a game.
Does it matter which teams are playing?
No.


Hmmmm, nice try at IGNORING the first question. Is the product the racing or as you claimed in the first post above it is the chassis and the engine. If it is the racing, then yep teams are playing and we have ourselves a superbowl, because the product is the GAME. Now, however, if as you orignially said, the product is the engine and chassis, then we have players standing around showing off their product.

So, don't ignore the question this time, is the product equipment or the racing? You have claimed each one as it suits your message.

Gary