Make Conrad Rautenbach history!

[Daniel]

The FIA is into rules and stuff. So can the FIA not just ban this guy? If I was a betting man I'd put money on him hurting himself or a spectator seriously if he goes on for a few more years.

The first time I saw him was in Finland in 2005 and he'd stoved the front end of his C2 in.

Then In Rally GB last year he had a stupid accident.

Now in Monte Carlo he's ****ed another Xsara up. I like Xsara's and I don't want to see this guy wreck any more of them. Perhaps he should drive for Subaru or something.......

Screw making poverty history! I think making Conrad history is far easier to achieve and together we can do this.

[Juha]

No, don't ban him! I want a team with him, Pons and Al Qassimi. Should be a decent spectacle. :D

I haven't seen his latest hit yet, so I'll keep my comments until I've seen it, but certainly isn't the smartest thing do on the last stage...

There's no need for banning him. Eventually his wallet will do the job, it will soon be empty if he continues like that. ;)

[Tomi]

Dont be so hard on the guy after all he is a IRC safari winner :)

[Daniel]

Dont be so hard on the guy after all he is a IRC safari winner :)
Yeah :) Beating a bunch of also rans. I guess he does deserve some credit :)

[User]

Well, let's blame the gears for the accidents! :D

[J4MIE]

I think it's quite clear you don't like the guy Daniel. There are lots of drivers I don't particularly like, but I don't think they should be banned from the sport :confused:

How do you know it wasn't a problem with his car that caused problems for him?

[Tom206wrc]

What to say about Mikko Hirvonen crashing the official Impreza WRC at a bridge on the SSS of Rally Finland in 2004(or 2005??)??? :p :

[Frozzy]

No, don't ban him! I want a team with him, Pons and Al Qassimi. Should be a decent spectacle.
i would happily pay money to see that team they would certainly be a Hit with the scenery geddit?

[Simmi]

Its another wrc car on the stages. When he hasnt retired.

Besides that was a memorable moment today, and rallying doesn't have enough of those nowadays.

[DonJippo]

Dont be so hard on the guy after all he is a IRC safari winner :)

Yes and he brings more variety to WRC nations...now we have driver's from countries such and Zimbabwe & Dubai and what a difference they make... :rolleyes:

[JAM]

The FIA is into rules and stuff. So can the FIA not just ban this guy?

No, is not fair to ban the guy, as is not far to ban you from this forum. We need entertainment and you give the entertainment that sometime we need, as Conrad. :D You two are equal, but in different areas

[A.F.F.]

What to say about Mikko Hirvonen crashing the official Impreza WRC at a bridge on the SSS of Rally Finland in 2004(or 2005??)??? :p :

Go on?

[Daniel]

Oh my god. It was a joke to an extent. You can't ban someone for being crap. But you can joke about it.

[Daniel]

No, is not fair to ban the guy, as is not far to ban you from this forum. We need entertainment and you give the entertainment that sometime we need, as Conrad. :D You two are equal, but in different areas
It was a joke for gods sake. The fact that I talked about NOT making poverty history should have set off the sarcasm-omoter but evidently it didn't....

[bt52b]

Daniel is probably more upset that he didn't make it into the harbour ;)

[Daniel]

Lol. No I don't wish harm upon anyone :)

[Tom206wrc]

Go on?




It was about Rautenbach crash in SSS at Monte-Carlo... I made you all noticed that it also happened to a guy like Mikko Hirvonen in Finland in 2005 !! ;)

[bennizw]

And with Dani Sordo in Greece 2006 too, or was it Cyprus?

[harriswrc]

And with Dani Sordo in Greece 2006 too, or was it Cyprus?It was in Cyprus.

[Koppomsbo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YtOrZcyS4k

[Daniel]

And with Dani Sordo in Greece 2006 too, or was it Cyprus?
Thing is Sordo has redeemed himself time and time again with speed and being fairly consistent. Rautenbach is just like Colin McRae in his early days but without any of the things that made Colin a great driver.

[JAM]

It was a joke for gods sake. The fact that I talked about NOT making poverty history should have set off the sarcasm-omoter but evidently it didn't....


Is quite clear that you have a problem of comunication. Next time don't write nothing at all. Is better and make us to save time reading you.

[Mark]

Lets keep this calm please. Mods are watching ;)

Remember "Attack the post not the poster"

[Daniel]

Is quite clear that you have a problem of comunication. Next time don't write nothing at all. Is better and make us to save time reading you.
In case you don't know. This forum has a "Don't attack the poster. Attack the post" rule. Why don't you discuss my post rather than just telling everyone what they already know in that you don't like me...... This is a discussion forum not an arguing forum.

[JAM]

Lets keep this calm please. Mods are watching ;)

Remember "Attack the post not the poster"

Is some cases not atack the poster is impossible. But all the forums need to have a toy to entertainment.

I don't see nothing wrong on Conrad's crash in Monte Carlo. These things happen and one of the worst things is to see the car sliding at the biggining of a S curve, as it was the case. To put the things wrst, was a fast S cruve. Fortunatelly it was a litle wall in fron of the people, otherwise things could have been really bad.

Monte Carlo stage is a thing that WRC needs. Monte Carlo is a reference in terms of motorsport and the SS stage is one more thing to remembre.

WRC needs many SS as Monte Carlo, and many rallyes as Monte Carlo.

[Daniel]

Is some cases not atack the poster is impossible. But all the forums need to have a toy to entertainment.

I don't see nothing wrong on Conrad's crash in Monte Carlo. These things happen and one of the worst things is to see the car sliding at the biggining of a S curve, as it was the case. To put the things wrst, was a fast S cruve. Fortunatelly it was a litle wall in fron of the people, otherwise things could have been really bad.

Monte Carlo stage is a thing that WRC needs. Monte Carlo is a reference in terms of motorsport and the SS stage is one more thing to remembre.

WRC needs many SS as Monte Carlo, and many rallyes as Monte Carlo.

I never said there was a problem with the stage. I simply pointed out that in both of his drives in a WRCar he's overcooked it spectacularly.

Just because I say something you say doesn't give you the right to make personal attacks on a forum. If Conrad wants to come on this forum and criticise me then that's fine. But there's a right to freedom of speach on this forum and if I want to praise or criticise a driver or team I will and you've no right to make personal attacks.

Conrad's dads money could be much better spent sponsoring a promising up and coming driver who has a future in the WRC. Think of it like that and Conrad having a seat in the WRC is even more of a pity...

[jonas_mcrae]

No, is not fair to ban the guy, as is not far to ban you from this forum. We need entertainment and you give the entertainment that sometime we need, as Conrad. :D You two are equal, but in different areas

OWNED

[Daniel]

OWNED

HIRE PURCHASED!!!!!!

[N]

I just got back from Monte Carlo and I didn't like Conrad's attitude. Approaching the start of a stage, where there a lot of people, most drivers slow down, he didn't and everyone had to jump out of the way. Then the thing he did at the Monaco circuit was fairly stupid. Throughout the rally he didn't seem that approachable compared to every other driver. Also, his speed isn't great, there are other drivers that deserve a Xsara instead of him. This is just my opinion, maybe watching him on TV you might see him in a different light.

[Daniel]

N. Don't criticise him. That is the forum rule here. No criticism of drivers. The WRC apparently needs drivers so much we shouldn't care whether they're dangerous or make the WRC look like amateur hour.

[RaceFanStan]

... the forum rule here. No criticism of drivers ...
That is a good one !!! http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/laff/r3.gif

(You better hope he doesn't try to look that one up as it doesn't exist.) http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/laff/tm.gif

[pino]

N. Don't criticise him. That is the forum rule here. No criticism of drivers. The WRC apparently needs drivers so much we shouldn't care whether they're dangerous or make the WRC look like amateur hour.

You're wrong...I've always allowed you to criticise Galli ;)

[Josti]

In terms of freedom of speach, I totally agree with you Daniel, but mentioning him again in another thread where it's obviously not relevant, almost makes me think it's a personal thing :dozey:

[DonJippo]

In terms of freedom of speach, I totally agree with you Daniel, but mentioning him again in another thread where it's obviously not relevant, almost makes me think it's a personal thing :dozey:

Conrad did have an off on all three days so I think that's an achievement that deserves to have own thread :p

[Brother John]

I don´t see him :eek: on Who was the star of the Monte ? (http://paradise.motorsportforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124226) and he has own thread? ;)

[Josti]

Conrad did have an off on all three days so I think that's an achievement that deserves to have own thread :p

I was actually reffering to the "Star of the Monte" thread, where Daniel again lays eyes on Conrad, with no relevance :crazy:

Probably joking again :)

[Mirek]

Josti: If someone is able of such big things like Conrad is, don't be surprised he's everywhere ;) Anyway... in the way of entertainment and talking round the internet Conrad is the real star of Monte :)

[JAM]

Conrad is not a great driver. My claim against Daniel was just because he defended a ban :eek: Now we see that Daniel was joking... ok let's go forward!

Conrad is paying from his own pocket to drive (or dad's pocket) so i don't see a problem at all. The car was almost blank wich means no sponsors at all.

If he was in a team with sponsors, as someone that we know, we could criticize the team's choice, because in that situation the sponsors could eventually have more ROI with a better driver.

But let's be honest, wich was the car most seen on SS MC on TV? Hum? Conrad Rautenbach, the one :s mokin:

[Audimadgeoff]

I never said there was a problem with the stage. I simply pointed out that in both of his drives in a WRCar he's overcooked it spectacularly.

right guys, lay off the poor guy ok!

Whilst he might have made some silly errors recently there are underlying issues that conributed to the Rally GB and both Monte incidents, none of which I care to discuss on a public forum! These problems are hopefuly going to be addresed shortly.

Regarding the lack of sponsorship on the car, this is again due to be resolved shortly.

I know people are jealous of him because he has backing, but so what? He also has a lot of talent, scored FIA points on his rallying debut, aged 16, 2006 British Junior Champion, 2007 African Champion and fastest times on both tarmac and gravel during his JWRC campaigns.

As for his attiude during the Monte - think of the pressure. Th only person from the African continent in the WRC, his first tarmac rally in a world car, and it isn't the easiest rally in the wold either!

People who know him personally will tell you he is actually a really nice, down to earth guy who loves rallying! So keep the public slandering to a minimum.
Please.

[Daniel]

That is a good one !!! http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/laff/r3.gif

(You better hope he doesn't try to look that one up as it doesn't exist.) http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/laff/tm.gif
Only applies to the WRC stan ;) Because there is a shortage of competitive cars people seem scared that when you criticise some person who is wasting everyone's time and their money that just by not having them there the WRC will fall apart :mark:

[jparker]

right guys, lay off the poor guy ok!

Whilst he might have made some silly errors recently there are underlying issues that conributed to the Rally GB and both Monte incidents, none of which I care to discuss on a public forum! These problems are hopefuly going to be addresed shortly.

Regarding the lack of sponsorship on the car, this is again due to be resolved shortly.

I know people are jealous of him because he has backing, but so what? He also has a lot of talent, scored FIA points on his rallying debut, aged 16, 2006 British Junior Champion, 2007 African Champion and fastest times on both tarmac and gravel during his JWRC campaigns.

As for his attiude during the Monte - think of the pressure. Th only person from the African continent in the WRC, his first tarmac rally in a world car, and it isn't the easiest rally in the wold either!

People who know him personally will tell you he is actually a really nice, down to earth guy who loves rallying! So keep the public slandering to a minimum.
Please.

I agree, live the guy alone.
I just wander why Gronholm didn't get similar thread after his pathetic off in Ireland?

[Daniel]

You're wrong...I've always allowed you to criticise Galli ;)
That's what I mean Pino :) I value the fact that you let me say what I think about Galli and think that's important on the forum. Imagine how boring the forum would be if it were just a lovefest and we all talked about how great all the drivers, all the cars and all the teams are.

JParker. The thing about Gronholm is he has two world titles and countless rally wins to his name so judging him on the couple of crashes he had in the WRC is only 1% of the story.

[DonJippo]

People who know him personally will tell you he is actually a really nice, down to earth guy who loves rallying! So keep the public slandering to a minimum.
Please.

When one chooses to be a public figure better to be prepared also for public criticism.

[Daniel]

I was actually reffering to the "Star of the Monte" thread, where Daniel again lays eyes on Conrad, with no relevance :crazy:

Probably joking again :)
It was a joke yes :) I am very serious about rallying but I think when you can't joke about something then something is very wrong :)

[A.F.F.]

Critizism is different than name-calling. Name-calling is different then joking with calling names. Turns out to be thin red lines.

Oh, nothing to do with you Daniel. :)

[Grant_RSA]

The only time i have had the pleasure to watch Conrad drive in person was on the Zulu rally last year after we had an early exit from the event on SS3, the boy is seriously talented and did not put a wheel wrong the entire event!

He is young and will make mistakes, they all did it, except of course that freak of nature sir Loeb!

Daniel, think your a bit unfair , but its your opinion, in South Africa we dont have anyone with a chance to get to the WRC, Conrad is the only guy we can shout for and i'll continue doing it.

As for his attitude, after getting 2nd overall on the zulu rally he was one of the friendliest guys you have ever met, we all had a great party afterwards, with some serious headaches the next morning, Conrad was with us and partied just as hard with not attitude!His co driver was just as friendly!

Go Conrad go, someone is SA loves ya! :-)

[mullenswrc]

Never seen such a pathetic excuse for a thread.

[Daniel]

The only time i have had the pleasure to watch Conrad drive in person was on the Zulu rally last year after we had an early exit from the event on SS3, the boy is seriously talented and did not put a wheel wrong the entire event!

He is young and will make mistakes, they all did it, except of course that freak of nature sir Loeb!

Daniel, think your a bit unfair , but its your opinion, in South Africa we dont have anyone with a chance to get to the WRC, Conrad is the only guy we can shout for and i'll continue doing it.

As for his attitude, after getting 2nd overall on the zulu rally he was one of the friendliest guys you have ever met, we all had a great party afterwards, with some serious headaches the next morning, Conrad was with us and partied just as hard with not attitude!His co driver was just as friendly!

Go Conrad go, someone is SA loves ya! :-)

I think it'd be great if someone from that part of the world did well. I do. Rallying needs it's profile lifted in Africa so perhaps one day I can stay with family and see a WRC event in South Africa. Thanks for respecting my opinion and I respect your right to have your one. Even if you're wrong in this situation :p

I can't say anything about his attitude and tbh it doesn't bother me unless he eats small children for lunch or if he's friends with Robert M.

[Buzz Lightyear]

I think it'd be great if someone from that part of the world did well. I do. Rallying needs it's profile lifted in Africa so perhaps one day I can stay with family and see a WRC event in South Africa. Thanks for respecting my opinion and I respect your right to have your one. Even if you're wrong in this situation :p

I can't say anything about his attitude and tbh it doesn't bother me unless he eats small children for lunch or if he's friends with Robert M.

regarding the banning issue.. i think the FIA should introduce a rule.. that anyone slower than wilson should be banned. :)

[JAM]

No, is not fair to ban the guy, as is not far to ban you from this forum. We need entertainment and you give the entertainment that sometime we need, as Conrad. :D You two are equal, but in different areas


I was joking when wrote that

[kabouter]

regarding the banning issue.. i think the FIA should introduce a rule.. that anyone slower than wilson should be banned. :)

Wow, Wilson promoted to be the driver every other driver is judged against ;)

[JAM]

regarding the banning issue.. i think the FIA should introduce a rule.. that anyone slower than wilson should be banned. :)

You should had tought about it 3 years ago. Now is late because Matthew has made some small improvements and there are others worst than him. :D

[Patman]

For all the slanderers out there just have a read over conrads achievements http://www.conradrautenbach.com/about.html before you start judging him. Daniel its quite clear you dislike him for some reason (Jealousy maybe) thats certainly how it comes accross, I dont see you up there. You obviously dont know him, he's a great friend and if you did not know there was a family death just before the rally in monte, do you think maybe that could have had a bad effect on him? think about it before you start yapping away

[N.O.T]

I think rallying in a WRC needs a superlicence...that way we avoid all the turists. Given his times in Pwrc and Jwrc i wouldn't expect conrad to be that bad.....same like villagra.

[Patman]

"Websters defines "Rautenbaching" as crashing in spectacularly moronic fashion in front of spectators" whats this all about Daniel??? you really have it in for Conrad don't you. Shame boyo , it just seems you are EXTREMELY JEALOUS!

[Daniel]

Yes I'm jealous. I wish I could embarrass myself like he did :) i love the old "you're jealous" defence of a paydriver.

[Helstar]

Honestly this guy is really slow. In some passages even Broccoli with a slower car was soooo better.
But I have to thank him because he gave me the possibility to see a Xsara live :) can't say nothing bad about people paying for drive (ye even Wilson), the more cars the better...

Also he can improve a lot I hope (for him) !

[WRCfan]

Anyone who goes bashing him on the forum just remember - he is a better driver than you. With the exception maybe of VERY few.

It's another car on the stages, he seems like a really nice guy, down to earth and all. It's funny how when something like this happens, all the "armchair experts" pipe up and sh!t on them.

At the end of the day we all know the "armchair experts" know a lot about the WRC although if it came time to put your cards on the table against Conrad you would look really $hit.

Nuff said.

[cut the b.s.]

Anyone who goes bashing him on the forum just remember - he is a better driver than you. With the exception maybe of VERY few.

It's another car on the stages, he seems like a really nice guy, down to earth and all. It's funny how when something like this happens, all the "armchair experts" pipe up and sh!t on them.

At the end of the day we all know the "armchair experts" know a lot about the WRC although if it came time to put your cards on the table against Conrad you would look really $hit.

Nuff said.


This arguement was used before for Matt, I haven't said anything about Conrad before, but I'll say this, if you can devise a neutral driver challenge I'd have a go at it.
Recently we had a guy in on a 20tonne digger, he could crack but not smash an egg with that thing, could any wrc driver do this? Is he a better driver? Certainly on a digger I'm sure but he has never drove a rally car, hense my stating of a neutral challenge. Certainly Conrad could beat me in a WRC, Matt too, but are they better drivers? I dont know and you certainly don't but if you can devise a fair way to find out I'm up for it

[Rally_Rocks]

I'm all for freedom of expression and everyone being allowed to aire their views, but some folk make me very angry indeed. How can any supposed follower of rallying make such moronic remarks about a young and clearly talented driver who is competing in only his second rally in a world rally?

For God's give the lad a chance!!!.

If I remeber correctly, Conrad reported no brakes through the second pass of Turini, so I assume that could have been a complicating factor in his crash.

Wether it was or not, lay off the guy, and give him a chance to get used to his new car. He may not be a world beater, but he is a very talented young man and at 21, who knows how far his talent is yet to develop.

[Daniel]

How can any supposed follower of rallying make such moronic remarks about a young and clearly talented driver who is competing in only his second rally in a world rally?

Clearly talented. Don't make me laugh......

Like Cut the B.S said of course he will probably be better than us in a WRC because none of us have had the opportunities he has had. But given time, money and the same opportunities I suspect most of us could be just as good or better than Conrad. He's nothing special.

[Rally_Rocks]

Clearly talented. Don't make me laugh......

Like Cut the B.S said of course he will probably be better than us in a WRC because none of us have had the opportunities he has had. But given time, money and the same opportunities I suspect most of us could be just as good or better than Conrad. He's nothing special.

I'll put my hands up in the air and surrender to your clearly greater understanding of rallying than mine.

I'm off to let every driver who has scored a podium in JWRC know that they are "nothing special"

[Daniel]

I'll put my hands up in the air and surrender to your clearly greater understanding of rallying than mine.

I'm off to let every driver who has scored a podium in JWRC know that they are "nothing special"
Excellent. While you're with them can you tell any of them who have got podiums that they've done as good as drivers who have won championships or rallies with WRCars or those like Sordo or Atkinson who have managed to go from lesser classes up to the top class and score lots of points.

How many rallies has Conrad done in the WRC in different classes and how many times has he retired? You do the maths. Bear in mind this doesn't include his two WRCar retirements :)

http://rallybase.nl/index.php?type=profile&driverid=10890

[Simmi]

Well it looks like we wont be seeing Conrad and his Xsara after Sweden.













Because he will be in a C4 WRC for Mexico!!!

[mullenswrc]

Anyone who goes bashing him on the forum just remember - he is a better driver than you. With the exception maybe of VERY few.

It's another car on the stages, he seems like a really nice guy, down to earth and all. It's funny how when something like this happens, all the "armchair experts" pipe up and sh!t on them.

At the end of the day we all know the "armchair experts" know a lot about the WRC although if it came time to put your cards on the table against Conrad you would look really $hit.

Nuff said.

Good post.

[mullenswrc]

Clearly talented. Don't make me laugh......

Like Cut the B.S said of course he will probably be better than us in a WRC because none of us have had the opportunities he has had. But given time, money and the same opportunities I suspect most of us could be just as good or better than Conrad. He's nothing special.


The funny side of you is really starting to show. Honestly.

[Grant_RSA]

Daniel!

You embarass me, please remove your RSA flag!

Funny how so many think they can drive a car so well, i am a co-driver and KNOW i cannot do what the decent drivers do! i wonder if anyone here has even sat in A decent paced rally car, your comments are ridiculous!

GET A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Daniel]

The funny side of you is really starting to show. Honestly.
You know I don't aim to please everyone. It's simply not possible. Anyway this thread was a JOKE and I don't seriously think Conrad should be banned. People have criticised Antony Warmbold and Natalie Barratt in the past. Where were all the do-gooders then? :laugh:

[A.F.F.]

I thought we still criticise Natalie :confused:

[Daniel]

I thought we still criticise Natalie :confused:
LEAVE NATALIE ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Patman]

I agree grant, that T#$T daniel should remove his flag, anyway, what good jokes you have daniel, made everyone laugh!!!

I'm sure we'll see huge improvements with time, Conrad is in a new league and just has to learn along the way. Sh!t happens to the best of us .

[Patman]

I agree grant, that T#$T daniel should remove his flag, anyway, what good jokes you have daniel, made everyone laugh!!!

I'm sure we'll see huge improvements with time, Conrad is in a new league and just has to learn along the way. Sh!t happens to the best of us .

[WRCfan]

Yeah maybe Daniel you could be as good as Conrad if you had the same chances, but you havent and he is the one who has been given the car and the chance to compete.

The argument "anyone could be as good as Conrad" is weak, talk is cheap but we all know you wont have the chance to compete and prove your a better driver and so on....

Yes this is an open forum and everyone has the right to express their opinion but unless you willing to step up and go head to head with Conrad then slandering him (whether it is a joke or not) is pretty sad....the dude is 21 and at that age to have what speed and talent he does at that age is pretty good.

Remember the young Solberg - crash happy, he turned into a World Champion. Mikko Hirvonen, made mistakes in the early stage of career, now likely the closest competition to Loeb.

Just give Conrad some time, if he makes it then awesome, if not then no worries. We had the chance of seeing another car on the stages. Too many people jump the gun and say "hes useless and is too crash happy". All a learning curve...

[Daniel]

Yeah maybe Daniel you could be as good as Conrad if you had the same chances, but you havent and he is the one who has been given the car and the chance to compete.

The argument "anyone could be as good as Conrad" is weak, talk is cheap but we all know you wont have the chance to compete and prove your a better driver and so on....

Yes this is an open forum and everyone has the right to express their opinion but unless you willing to step up and go head to head with Conrad then slandering him (whether it is a joke or not) is pretty sad....the dude is 21 and at that age to have what speed and talent he does at that age is pretty good.

Remember the young Solberg - crash happy, he turned into a World Champion. Mikko Hirvonen, made mistakes in the early stage of career, now likely the closest competition to Loeb.

Just give Conrad some time, if he makes it then awesome, if not then no worries. We had the chance of seeing another car on the stages. Too many people jump the gun and say "hes useless and is too crash happy". All a learning curve...
I'm sorry everyone. On looking at the hugely intelligent posts on this thread I must reitterate that we must not criticise ANY driver unless we can show proof that we are better than them. This is NOT a forum to discuss the WRC. Just to say "ooh this is nice" and no more. Don't criticise and most of all DO NOT have opinions.

[Camelopard]

I'm sorry everyone. On looking at the hugely intelligent posts on this thread I must reitterate that we must not criticise ANY driver unless we can show proof that we are better than them. This is NOT a forum to discuss the WRC. Just to say "ooh this is nice" and no more. Don't criticise and most of all DO NOT have opinions.

Well after seeing Conrad roll in front of us on one of the Baumholder stages in Germany 2005, I'm inclined to agree with Daniel.

[Daniel]

Well after seeing Conrad roll in front of us on one of the Baumholder stages in Germany 2005, I'm inclined to agree with Daniel.
Stop using personal experience and logic to draw up an opinion about a driver that is negative. Bad boy!

[cut the b.s.]

Yeah maybe Daniel you could be as good as Conrad if you had the same chances, but you havent and he is the one who has been given the car and the chance to compete.

The argument "anyone could be as good as Conrad" is weak, talk is cheap but we all know you wont have the chance to compete and prove your a better driver and so on....

Yes this is an open forum and everyone has the right to express their opinion but unless you willing to step up and go head to head with Conrad then slandering him (whether it is a joke or not) is pretty sad....the dude is 21 and at that age to have what speed and talent he does at that age is pretty good.

Remember the young Solberg - crash happy, he turned into a World Champion. Mikko Hirvonen, made mistakes in the early stage of career, now likely the closest competition to Loeb.

Just give Conrad some time, if he makes it then awesome, if not then no worries. We had the chance of seeing another car on the stages. Too many people jump the gun and say "hes useless and is too crash happy". All a learning curve...


AAhhhh, good thinking Conrad is young and crashes, so he will be World Champ, do you think Matt could be champ if he crashed more often? Petter and Mikko were going fast when they crashed, Conrad was beaten by a 2wd Clio on stages on the Monte :-)

[Daniel]

AAhhhh, good thinking Conrad is young and crashes, so he will be World Champ, do you think Matt could be champ if he crashed more often? Petter and Mikko were going fast when they crashed, Conrad was beaten by a 2wd Clio on stages on the Monte :-)

Let up not also remember that Conrad has two arms and two legs. Just like Sebastien Loeb ;)

[rwssport]

What would folks rather see on the stages - the Colin McRae (RIP) method of getting through the stages or the Richard Burns (RIP) way of doing it... Both matured as they got older though....

[N.O.T]

Anyone who goes bashing him on the forum just remember - he is a better driver than you.

The most idiotic thing i hear ever...in the same sence stop critising polititians as well because with all the studies they do, they sure know politics better than you....

You think a lot to post those stuff ????

[A.F.F.]

Let up not also remember that Conrad has two arms and two legs. Just like Sebastien Loeb ;)

Co-incidence ??? I don't think so ;)

[Shrike]

All this hate has made me a fan of Conrad whos existance I would have otherwise ignored.

[Tom206wrc]

What expecting from him in Mexico with the C4 WRC ??? :confused:

[Camelopard]

All this hate has made me a fan of Conrad whos existance I would have otherwise ignored.

Hate is a very strong word, I don't hate him, imo he is out of his depth.

[Daniel]

Hate is a very strong word, I don't hate him, imo he is out of his depth.
Rather. No need to hate Conrad. He didn't eat my dog or something. He's simply out of his depth :)

[Tom206wrc]

LEAVE NATALIE ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



So leave Conrad alone too !! :p :

[Tomski]

Leave the kid alone, how any other drivers had more than their fair share of offs in thier first few WRC outings?

[Mirek]

Who is the king of crashes? http://demand.global-mix.net/?o=gmuk-n.one-vod/WRC0227.wmv&.wvx= :)

[Helstar]

It's Atkinson for them... btw not even in the first 10 crash-drivers we see Gigi Galli, maybe an error LOL ?

[WRCfan]

I didn't mean we can't critique things Daniel. For f**ks sake i stated under my first paragraph that it IS AN OPEN FORUM, thus we can critique things however you were just straight out bashing the guy because he crashed in his 1st or 2nd WRC event. There is a difference. It's like people bashing Wilson, just leave the guy alone, if his daddy wants to spend the cash and put him in a car then thats their business, not yours. Do you want to see 2 less cars on the road at a WRC event? The WRC is all the better for having those 2 extra cars whether they are at the front of the field or not...

Also I was not indicating he WILL be WRC champ because he crashed early like Mikko and Petter. I was giving an example that EVERYONE makes mistakes early in careers and it is all part of the learning curve.

How about Daniel tries to think outside the box for once and read more into posts rather than being so narrow minded and giving a 5 year old "i know you are you said you are but what am I" response.

[N.O.T]

I never really understood why some people want to see as many WRC cars as possible in an event no matter the talent behind them.....

[WRCfan]

The guy doesn't TOTALLY lack talent. 21 years old, as i mentioned before, we need to give the guy a chance. If we wrote off all drivers because of a crash on their first or second event we would not have any drivers in the WRC.

[Helstar]

I never really understood why some people want to see as many WRC cars as possible in an event no matter the talent behind them.....
Sadly you must have the money before the talent in WRC nowadays ... anyway they're not stealing cars from anybody, so why forbid them to race, let them drive and crash and let us have fun :p

[sollitt]

He's simply out of his depth How do you know? Who set the depth?

[WRCfan]

^ too true!

[Daniel]

It's Atkinson for them... btw not even in the first 10 crash-drivers we see Gigi Galli, maybe an error LOL ?

Well lets see what Gigi can do this year to change their minds :p

I can accept Atkinson has crashed a lot. But he's showed a lot of speed. But when there are crashes and a whole lot of no speed then......

[Daniel]

I didn't mean we can't critique things Daniel. For f**ks sake i stated under my first paragraph that it IS AN OPEN FORUM, thus we can critique things however you were just straight out bashing the guy because he crashed in his 1st or 2nd WRC event. There is a difference. It's like people bashing Wilson, just leave the guy alone, if his daddy wants to spend the cash and put him in a car then thats their business, not yours. Do you want to see 2 less cars on the road at a WRC event? The WRC is all the better for having those 2 extra cars whether they are at the front of the field or not...

Also I was not indicating he WILL be WRC champ because he crashed early like Mikko and Petter. I was giving an example that EVERYONE makes mistakes early in careers and it is all part of the learning curve.

How about Daniel tries to think outside the box for once and read more into posts rather than being so narrow minded and giving a 5 year old "i know you are you said you are but what am I" response.

Narrow minded? How about the nasty, narrow minded responses that have been directed my way? :laugh:

If daddy wants to spend the money that's great. But don't expect people to not to criticise him for being a waste of an entry spot which someone else could have used to further their promising careers.

[Camelopard]

Well lets see what Gigi can do this year to change their minds :p

I can accept Atkinson has crashed a lot. But he's showed a lot of speed. But when there are crashes and a whole lot of no speed then......

Atko has also been driving a crap car which in his own words has not been easy and therefore he has had to push the car harder than he would have liked.

[N.O.T]

How do you know? Who set the depth?

the depth is set by the people who are in inferior cars and were dominating him ....

Broccoli was taking him to school in an R3 !!!!

He has nothing to offer to the sport with a wrc car....

[sollitt]

If you believe that you misunderstand the purpose & meaning of rallying. It is all encompassing. Unless one is paid, one sets ones own 'depth' or level of expectation. and no-one takes an opportunatey away from any other.

[Daniel]

If you believe that you misunderstand the purpose & meaning of rallying. It is all encompassing. Unless one is paid, one sets ones own 'depth' or level of expectation. and no-one takes an opportunatey away from any other.
I'm a billionaire because I say so :)

[N.O.T]

If you believe that you misunderstand the purpose & meaning of rallying. It is all encompassing. Unless one is paid, one sets ones own 'depth' or level of expectation. and no-one takes an opportunatey away from any other.

well i agree but you also should agree that is everyones right to critisise the choices one makes...

And at the end of the day i don't have the right not to allow anyone to take part in what he likes but he doesn't have the right also not to allow me to express my opinion on the results his choice brings....

[DonJippo]

And at the end of the day i don't have the right not to allow anyone to take part in what he likes but he doesn't have the right also not to allow me to express my opinion on the results his choice brings....

:up: I agree...the tone of the criticism can sometimes be a bit rough but still IMHO we are entitled to express it.

[Helstar]

Well lets see what Gigi can do this year to change their minds :p

He hasn't crashed in Monte so I think he won't appear in that standing soon =D (not while driving the Ford, maybe if Mitsu is back, who knows LOL).


I can accept Atkinson has crashed a lot. But he's showed a lot of speed. But when there are crashes and a whole lot of no speed then......
Let's see at the end of the year, I already know what's going to happen eheh (=Atko lots of crashes, Gigi takes more points :p !).

[PLuto]

My favourite picture of Rautenbach :)

http://archiv.autosport.cz/autosport/rallysport/photos/wrc/deutschland2005frautenbach.jpg

[Daniel]

This is what I saw the first time I saw Conrad driving :)

http://powerphoto.co.uk/rally/wrc2005/rd10/ss6/028.html

Here is another good one :up:
http://picasaweb.google.com/wouters.vince/WRCPortugal/photo#5049132135859971298

[A.F.F.]

I think you all are too rough to Rautenbach. Let's face it, he hasn't crashed almost in two weeks now. Give him a break.

[cosmicpanda]

How do you know? He might've had a mild off in recce and not told anybody. :p :

[DonJippo]

I think you all are too rough to Rautenbach. Let's face it, he hasn't crashed almost in two weeks now. Give him a break.

Well Conrad just stepped to a higher level by driving off on the road section before stage in Rally Sweden :dozey:

[Simmi]

Cant believe it hasnt been mentioned in here, but I heard he went off on the road section this morning whilst warming his tyres. More fuel for the fire.

[PLuto]

Yesterday night, I was watching old videos from Group B times. And when I saw people staying on the road, I was thinking, how it could show, if behind wheel wasn't Rohrl, Munari, Kankkunen, Salonen but Rautenbach, Atkinson or C.McRae...

[Daniel]

Guys lay off Conrad. Apparently he deserves our respect when he can drive off the road on a road section.....

[Larry_Japan]

Guys lay off Conrad. Apparently he deserves our respect when he can drive off the road on a road section.....

...yeah, apparently he was warming his tyres up a little too vigorously. D'Oh!

[N.O.T]

He is just a league of his own !!! RESPECT !!!

[klm-607]

Guys lay off Conrad. Apparently he deserves our respect when he can drive off the road on a road section.....

WOW! You sure ignited a crap storm here! LOL!!! Well Ol' "Conny" may not be a good dirver in the WRC, but he is there... & that's ALOT more than I think any of us "armchair" drivers/co-drivers can say. He may get better in time... or not.

"I may not agree w/what you have to say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it!" - Thomas Payne

[Daniel]

WOW! You sure ignited a crap storm here! LOL!!! Well Ol' "Conny" may not be a good dirver in the WRC, but he is there... & that's ALOT more than I think any of us "armchair" drivers/co-drivers can say. He may get better in time... or not.

The thing is he's not there because sponsors thought. This guy is going to do well. Lets give him some backing and sell our product at the same time. He's there because daddy put him in the seat. If my dad paid for me to drive and I was doing this badly I'd understand if people criticised me.

As NOT said before, people seemed to be obsessed with having lots of WRCars on the entry lists without caring whether they're driven by skilled drivers, by guys like Conrad or by an inanimate carbon rod. I'd rather see 5 skilled drivers in good cars rather than 30 drivers in cars prepared by factories who never give it 100% like Skoda or Hyundai. It's quality not quantity!

Amen to the last bit of your post too :up:

[cosmicpanda]

Skoda had the best sound though.

[sollitt]

well i agree but you also should agree that is everyones right to critisise the choices one makes...

Never have I suggested otherwise, although others have.

I would say though, that some of the criticism actually says more about the writer(s) than it does about the subject.

I'm sure that if I were Conrad Rautenbach I'd have a huge smile on my face whilst I asked "I'm living my dream. What are you doing with your life?"


I'd rather see 5 skilled drivers in good cars rather than 30 drivers in cars prepared by factories who never give it 100% like Skoda or Hyundai. It's quality not quantity!

Daniel, you continue to astound me! There wouldn't have been a WRC round in the 30 years of it's existence that hasn't had such participation. And thank the Lord for that, or else rallying would not have lasted very long.
That each event draws entries from all skill levels is indeed the very essence of the sport and what sets it apart from other modes of motorsport.

[WRCfan]

However we ALREADY HAVE an abundance of talented drivers so it's no stress if someone is put in a car because their father has a lot of cash. It appears that you would loose sleep over the fact that Conrad is in a Citroen...

You can keep ribbing him, although if your daddy had cash and put you in a WRC car you would still be slower than Conrad anyway and I would put money on that.

[kleisj]

Yesterday night, I was watching old videos from Group B times. And when I saw people staying on the road, I was thinking, how it could show, if behind wheel wasn't Rohrl, Munari, Kankkunen, Salonen but Rautenbach, Atkinson or C.McRae...

In this case maybe GroupB would have been banned sooner due to lack of budget from the manufacturers....!

[Daniel]

Daniel, you continue to astound me! There wouldn't have been a WRC round in the 30 years of it's existence that hasn't had such participation. And thank the Lord for that, or else rallying would not have lasted very long.
That each event draws entries from all skill levels is indeed the very essence of the sport and what sets it apart from other modes of motorsport.

True enough. But back then rallies weren't really limited in the numbers of entries they could have. But times have changed. I have no problem with daddies giving sons money to do a season in a WRCar. I really don't but I think a guy like Conrad seems a bit dangerous and I just hope he doesn't have a similar crash to his Raly GB or Monte ones in a country with lesser safety standards because people might be hurt. Safety is a two way thing on rallies. Organisers must make the route as safer as possible. But competitors should also try and drive within their limits also. I'd give £10 to Conrad if he could just keep it on the road on his next rally.....

[sollitt]

Daniel, you don't give a rat's arse about "people's safety" at all.
There's no evidence to suggest that Conrad is less safe than any other competitor who's having a go.
You've simply started a thread to have a bit of fun at someone else's expense. Admit it.

[Daniel]

Daniel, you don't give a rat's arse about "people's safety" at all.
You've simply started a thread to have a bit of fun at someone else's expense. Admit it.

You really do like the sound of your (admittedly typed) voice don't you!

How many times when people like IvanThaDriver said we should have GroupB back in it's 1980's form was I the one to say tell those people how impractical and unsafe this would be? TBH I could care less about the "spectacle" of the sport as long as people are fairly safe. Accidents will always happen in a fairly safe sport like the WRC but keeping them down to a minimum is good for everyone.

Of course this thread was to poke fun at Conrad! I've once posted a thread to poke fun at Gronholm as well when he was having a nice run of retirements. The difference was that this was unusual for Gronholm but seems par for the course for Conrad.

[Josti]

You really do like the sound of your (admittedly typed) voice don't you!

How many times when people like IvanThaDriver said we should have GroupB back in it's 1980's form was I the one to say tell those people how impractical and unsafe this would be?


Didn't you had fun at his expense too?!











Oh wait, we all had :p :

[Daniel]

Didn't you had fun at his expense too?!











Oh wait, we all had :p :
Oi! Don't make fun of Ivan because he's using his dad's PC!

[WRCfan]

It's not up to Conrad to make sure spectators are kept in safe areas. That is the job of the rally organisers.

Saying "Conrad is a hazard to spectators" is a weak shot at trying to save face because of the sh!tstorm you have started here. You initially said "he crashed a Citroen and thats bad because it's my favourite car" now your claiming he will kill spectators. Admit it, this is a thread where you tried to be funny, however lots have not found it funny, now your trying desperately to save face.

If Conrad crashed and a spectator was hurt you would point the finger and say "see he is dangerous" although if Hirvonen hit a spectator it would be "that spectator was in a stupid place". If any WRC driver hits a spectator then it is because the spectator was in a place they shouldn't be. Simple as that. Any spectator who is hit by a rally car is at fault, they should have weighed up the options as to whether they put themselves in danger or not.

[kleisj]

It's not up to Conrad to make sure spectators are kept in safe areas. That is the job of the rally organisers.

Saying "Conrad is a hazard to spectators" is a weak shot at trying to save face because of the sh!tstorm you have started here. You initially said "he crashed a Citroen and thats bad because it's my favourite car" now your claiming he will kill spectators. Admit it, this is a thread where you tried to be funny, however lots have not found it funny, now your trying desperately to save face.

If Conrad crashed and a spectator was hurt you would point the finger and say "see he is dangerous" although if Hirvonen hit a spectator it would be "that spectator was in a stupid place". If any WRC driver hits a spectator then it is because the spectator was in a place they shouldn't be. Simple as that. Any spectator who is hit by a rally car is at fault, they should have weighed up the options as to whether they put themselves in danger or not.

Yeap is like that.
The only one who is not at fault is the driver. Actually this is one of the main reasons to begin with why a driver goes rallying or racing. Not to be a hazard to the public and do what he loves best within supervised and safe conditions. Same applies ofcourse for the professionals or the semi-pros or the complete amateurs. The rally organizers and the spectators themselves should take all the precautionary measures not to be in danger when a car which is traveling on the limit passes near them.

[Whinlatter]

I do think some of the posters on this forum are a bit harsh on talented drivers sometimes - Conrad, like Wilson and others, is a very quick driver and well capable of winning a National series anywhere in the world - but because he's not at the same pace as maybe 10 or a dozen guys at WRC level, he's a waste of a seat?? Really??

I enjoy watching a variety of drivers who have a variety of abilities - it's fascinating watching the second tier of drivers gradually up their speed and begin to match the best, and it's fascinating to see the leading JWRC and PWRC guys when they step up to WRCs. Wilks, Meeke, P-G and Aava have been on the pace (allowing for their machinery not being top class) but people like Arai and Conrad have not.

This doesn't mean they're talentless, just that their level is slightly below the very top - and if I go to watch a WRC event I'm just as appreciative of their efforts fighting over 10th place as I am of a guy in a Swift fighting for the lead of N2 - they're out there doing it to the best of their ability and I'd sooner have that all through the field than some sort of rallysprint with only 20 cars in it.....

Having said all that - Rautenbach has looked worryingly wild since he stepped into a WRC - I'm all for people being on the ragged edge, but his RGB crash was a huge misjudgement, and the onboard from his second Monte crash made it sound like he wasn't even bothered that he'd binned it - maybe unfair but understandable if you're rally position is low and funding isn't an issue - but not a good attitude for your own personal safety I wouldn't have thought.....

[kleisj]

I do think some of the posters on this forum are a bit harsh on talented drivers sometimes - Conrad, like Wilson and others, is a very quick driver and well capable of winning a National series anywhere in the world - but because he's not at the same pace as maybe 10 or a dozen guys at WRC level, he's a waste of a seat?? Really??

I enjoy watching a variety of drivers who have a variety of abilities - it's fascinating watching the second tier of drivers gradually up their speed and begin to match the best, and it's fascinating to see the leading JWRC and PWRC guys when they step up to WRCs. Wilks, Meeke, P-G and Aava have been on the pace (allowing for their machinery not being top class) but people like Arai and Conrad have not.

This doesn't mean they're talentless, just that their level is slightly below the very top - and if I go to watch a WRC event I'm just as appreciative of their efforts fighting over 10th place as I am of a guy in a Swift fighting for the lead of N2 - they're out there doing it to the best of their ability and I'd sooner have that all through the field than some sort of rallysprint with only 20 cars in it.....

Having said all that - Rautenbach has looked worryingly wild since he stepped into a WRC - I'm all for people being on the ragged edge, but his RGB crash was a huge misjudgement, and the onboard from his second Monte crash made it sound like he wasn't even bothered that he'd binned it - maybe unfair but understandable if you're rally position is low and funding isn't an issue - but not a good attitude for your own personal safety I wouldn't have thought.....

The majority of people talking in here we don't even have the 5% of the skills of Wilson or Rautenbach. And since you are involved in Rallying as you said you know even better that is much different to be inside the car than watching from outside. Views and thoughts on the matter change a lot when you sit inside the car and do a special stage. And I agree also to the point that the mentioned drivers have the skills of winning national championships etc. Ofcourse they are not talentless. But unavoidably in the WRC they are compared with the elite of rally drivers. Judged according their performances to the best.
So can you tell me pls that you wouldn't prefer to watch a more competitive driver in their places fighting for a win? I would. WRC needs all actually , and the less competitive drivers but firstly the ones that can fight for top 3 positions raising the level of competition.

[Daniel]

It's not up to Conrad to make sure spectators are kept in safe areas. That is the job of the rally organisers.

Saying "Conrad is a hazard to spectators" is a weak shot at trying to save face because of the sh!tstorm you have started here. You initially said "he crashed a Citroen and thats bad because it's my favourite car" now your claiming he will kill spectators. Admit it, this is a thread where you tried to be funny, however lots have not found it funny, now your trying desperately to save face.

If Conrad crashed and a spectator was hurt you would point the finger and say "see he is dangerous" although if Hirvonen hit a spectator it would be "that spectator was in a stupid place". If any WRC driver hits a spectator then it is because the spectator was in a place they shouldn't be. Simple as that. Any spectator who is hit by a rally car is at fault, they should have weighed up the options as to whether they put themselves in danger or not.

What a laugh. In my original post I mentioned safety of spectators. What would have happened if Conrad hand't hit that lamp post and the very small (1 ft tall?) concrete wall hadn't contained his car which is a definited possibility? Then what? Does that automatically make that a dangerous place to stand? Quit making stuff up about my posts or I'll start doing the same to you.

[Daniel]

I do think some of the posters on this forum are a bit harsh on talented drivers sometimes - Conrad, like Wilson and others, is a very quick driver and well capable of winning a National series anywhere in the world - but because he's not at the same pace as maybe 10 or a dozen guys at WRC level, he's a waste of a seat?? Really??

I enjoy watching a variety of drivers who have a variety of abilities - it's fascinating watching the second tier of drivers gradually up their speed and begin to match the best, and it's fascinating to see the leading JWRC and PWRC guys when they step up to WRCs. Wilks, Meeke, P-G and Aava have been on the pace (allowing for their machinery not being top class) but people like Arai and Conrad have not.

This doesn't mean they're talentless, just that their level is slightly below the very top - and if I go to watch a WRC event I'm just as appreciative of their efforts fighting over 10th place as I am of a guy in a Swift fighting for the lead of N2 - they're out there doing it to the best of their ability and I'd sooner have that all through the field than some sort of rallysprint with only 20 cars in it.....

Having said all that - Rautenbach has looked worryingly wild since he stepped into a WRC - I'm all for people being on the ragged edge, but his RGB crash was a huge misjudgement, and the onboard from his second Monte crash made it sound like he wasn't even bothered that he'd binned it - maybe unfair but understandable if you're rally position is low and funding isn't an issue - but not a good attitude for your own personal safety I wouldn't have thought.....

I'm sorry but Conrad has never been a top tier JWRC driver. Sure he's had some good finishes but in a series like that just about anyone who can last till the end will get a good finish every once in a while.

As for your last paragraph I couldn't agree more :up:

[Whinlatter]

So can you tell me pls that you wouldn't prefer to watch a more competitive driver in their places fighting for a win? I would. WRC needs all actually , and the less competitive drivers but firstly the ones that can fight for top 3 positions raising the level of competition.
Sure, of course I would - but I'm also realistic. There is no way - ever - that ALL the best drivers have got a top car - even in the Golden age of the 70s/80s/90s *delete depending on how old you are ;)

I can't see anyone who doesn't currently have a drive who could regularly compete for a podium against Loeb, Sordo, JML, Mikko, Petter, Gigi, Atko and Duval.

Meeke, Wilks, Hanninen, Aava, Higgins, Tirabassi, Sola, Alen.... they're all quicker than Conrad, but none of them is a serious top 3 challenger - top 6 maybe, with the potential to luck into a podium now and again, but none of them is another Mikko or Loeb.

[cut the b.s.]

Meeke, Wilks, Hanninen, Aava, Higgins, Tirabassi, Sola, Alen.... they're all quicker than Conrad, but none of them is a serious top 3 challenger - top 6 maybe, with the potential to luck into a podium now and again, but none of them is another Mikko or Loeb.

Meeke, Hanninen and Alen all in my opinion, which counts for a lot in my head but very little elsewhere ;-) have what it takes to compete at the very top.


Great thread Daniel, its been fun to read and I'm sure Conrad never dreamed he could ever be as good as is being written of him here!!

[cut the b.s.]

The majority of people talking in here we don't even have the 5% of the skills of Wilson or Rautenbach. .


I have now reached the stage where I can feed and dress myself, does this qualify me as having more than 5% of the hand/eye cordination displayed by Conrad?

[Woodeye]

I think this thread is probably the oddest one I've seen in this forum. Where do you guys find the energy to focus on Conrad like this?

[sollitt]

You really do like the sound of your (admittedly typed) voice don't you!

Umm, sollitt = 1322 posts / Daniel = 26224 posts (approx. 20 times as many)

Bit of 'Pot calling the kettle black' do you think?

[ARF]

Daniel, seriously - have a w*nk or a computer-free month. Step outside the door, there's a real world outside! You might like it! :) Get a driving licence, learn to drive. Ask daddy or find sponsors and beat Loeb!

[Daniel]

Umm, sollitt = 1322 posts / Daniel = 26224 posts (approx. 20 times as many)

Bit of 'Pot calling the kettle black' do you think?
Thing is..... you just make stuff up....

As for ARF. People who are too childish to stay on topic or not be rude get reported to the moderators.

[pino]

Show is over Guys, thread closed !