American Open Wheel Racing on death watch.

[mike15]

How ironic it will be that for 13 years IMS has split AOWR to satisfy it's own desire to maintain one race in lieu of building AOWR.

For 13 years it has failed in it's mission to dominate AOWR. Here we are at the door step with a merger with ingredients that offer more of the same racing that for the most part has been rejected by AOWR fans.

Will one series be the solution to the malaise that surrounds AOWR these days? Some would like to think that one series is the answer. I would probably agree if the terms favored AOWR but as reported the terms are what fans have been rejecting during the split years.

You will have one series under the thumb of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway whose only interest is in the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and NOT American Open Wheel Racing.

Based on the IRL experience.
Gone will be the excitement of the three day race weekend.
Gone will be track records.
Gone will be the spirit of AOWR.

[sanguin]

YES, This is not about merger or unification. Make no mistake about it. This is about Killing off Champ Car and Control of all OW. Once everything is gone and out of the way, there will be no more challenges or options. It will be scorched earth.

There will be no compromise or promises. There will be no fan or team input.

There will be no stopping the plan that is put forward. Everyone will fall in line by choice or "kicking and screaming".

RIP OW

:vader:

[ChaimWitz]

Oh pulllllease. What a load of delusional panic-driven fear mongering.

Welcome to Champtown. Go ahead and have another sip of the orange Kool Aid.

So, Mike15 and Sanguin, what are we all to do?

Should we suspend disbelief and embrace the glorious five year plan while we sing happy songs about the brave and wise Amigos?

This nightmare is hopefully almost over and we will all one day wake up to a new day and fresh start with a unified open wheel series that will likely end up being far closer to what most of us want than this hopeless mess.

Let go of your anger and move on with the rest of the world.

[ChaimWitz]

Point #1 -
CC apparantly has not much longer to go. Assuming that some of RM's references to team owner comments are true, the number one team will be leaving next year no matter what. Several others are looking at it. Just one team leaving is terminal as there is NO ONE out there to take their place.

Point #2 -
Should #1 happen, there will be no (none, nada, zilch) negotiation about ANYTHING. The losers do not ever dictate any terms. No equipment, track or money issues will be considered that TG does not want. Having said that, it is possible TG may want to incorporate parts of CC if possible. Chassis, motors, Atlantics for instance.

The (maybe only) good side of this is that AOW will once again have one face. It will still be weak, but can attempt to consolidate it's resources to try and move forward instead of treading water. Which leads to:

Point #3 -
There should be a decent, but probably temporary, bounce in interest from the general public if all the PR around the whole deal is done properly. A once again whole AOW will very definately have to pursue new directions and initiatives to have any future though. Time waits for no one and the world's energy needs are shifting away from fossil fuel sources. Even NASCAR will have to adjust to this sooner or later. What better opportunity to change direction over the next few years? Continue the Indy series as is while introducing a new support series to explore alternative energy sources. As enough interest and participation rises then the old series can be phased out, or forced to conform to, the new series and the new energy world. AOW could, and I emphasize the word could, be the leader in racing technology with all the benefits that go with that.

So, to sum up, CC folding into the IRL does not necessarilly have to be the end of the world for real racing fans - even CC die hards. It would take a lot of work on the IRL establishment's part, but it is possible. Of course that opens a new door for debate. Are they up to it? :D

Starter, this is spot on. At this point American Open Wheel racing has less to lose than it has to gain in the minds of the public, media and the sponsors. The powers that be must go for it now because they may never get a better chance to reposition and rebuild this great sport.

[bblocker68]

Nascar has been ruled by a dictatorship and they are doing pretty well last time I checked. The sky is falling and it's time to make a move. I gave up on CC survivng on it's own in 2007 and have supported the fact that something must be done NOW.

Hell, we're not even sure we'll survive the year or even answer the bell yet. And it will still be a little while until the powers-that-be let us know.

At least the Daytona 24 will be starting soon. It'll cure my Jones to see some good racing, now that 2008 is here. I can only watch the SCCA runoffs for so long :)

[Rogelio]

A part of me says that the merger would be good thing for both series. However, knowing that TG is going to have the upper hand is what discourages me. I honestly do not foresee TG wanting to unite the series for the sake of improving AOWR. I think his goal is the simple "destruction" of Champ Car.

If NHL leaves Champ Car, it should/will mark the end of the series. I do not want NHL to leave our series, but I would not blame them for leaving. Our series is not improving. The Amigos have their head up you know where. This will probably be the last year of Champ Car. Why would any of the teams want to be in a racing series that offers little hope of a better future?

[Chaparral66]

Point #1 -
CC apparantly has not much longer to go. Assuming that some of RM's references to team owner comments are true, the number one team will be leaving next year no matter what. Several others are looking at it. Just one team leaving is terminal as there is NO ONE out there to take their place.

Point #2 -
Should #1 happen, there will be no (none, nada, zilch) negotiation about ANYTHING. The losers do not ever dictate any terms. No equipment, track or money issues will be considered that TG does not want. Having said that, it is possible TG may want to incorporate parts of CC if possible. Chassis, motors, Atlantics for instance.

The (maybe only) good side of this is that AOW will once again have one face. It will still be weak, but can attempt to consolidate it's resources to try and move forward instead of treading water. Which leads to:

Point #3 -
There should be a decent, but probably temporary, bounce in interest from the general public if all the PR around the whole deal is done properly. A once again whole AOW will very definately have to pursue new directions and initiatives to have any future though. Time waits for no one and the world's energy needs are shifting away from fossil fuel sources. Even NASCAR will have to adjust to this sooner or later. What better opportunity to change direction over the next few years? Continue the Indy series as is while introducing a new support series to explore alternative energy sources. As enough interest and participation rises then the old series can be phased out, or forced to conform to, the new series and the new energy world. AOW could, and I emphasize the word could, be the leader in racing technology with all the benefits that go with that.

So, to sum up, CC folding into the IRL does not necessarilly have to be the end of the world for real racing fans - even CC die hards. It would take a lot of work on the IRL establishment's part, but it is possible. Of course that opens a new door for debate. Are they up to it? :D

This is a pretty good assesment. If it does indeed happen this way, I won't be happy about it, but I'll take a wait and see approach. I still will probably put more time into ALMS, since what's going on there is really interesting. Whatever happens, in the coming years I am sure you will see 100 books come out that talk about the fall of open wheel racing, who did what and when, who reacted and what that reaction spawned. I'm just disappointed we all watched this history unfold right in front of us, and we were all but powerless to do anything about it.

[sanguin]

Point #1 -
CC apparantly has not much longer to go. Assuming that some of RM's references to team owner comments are true, the number one team will be leaving next year no matter what. Several others are looking at it. Just one team leaving is terminal as there is NO ONE out there to take their place.

Point #2 -
Should #1 happen, there will be no (none, nada, zilch) negotiation about ANYTHING. The losers do not ever dictate any terms. No equipment, track or money issues will be considered that TG does not want. Having said that, it is possible TG may want to incorporate parts of CC if possible. Chassis, motors, Atlantics for instance.

The (maybe only) good side of this is that AOW will once again have one face. It will still be weak, but can attempt to consolidate it's resources to try and move forward instead of treading water. Which leads to:

Point #3 -
There should be a decent, but probably temporary, bounce in interest from the general public if all the PR around the whole deal is done properly. A once again whole AOW will very definately have to pursue new directions and initiatives to have any future though. Time waits for no one and the world's energy needs are shifting away from fossil fuel sources. Even NASCAR will have to adjust to this sooner or later. What better opportunity to change direction over the next few years? Continue the Indy series as is while introducing a new support series to explore alternative energy sources. As enough interest and participation rises then the old series can be phased out, or forced to conform to, the new series and the new energy world. AOW could, and I emphasize the word could, be the leader in racing technology with all the benefits that go with that.

So, to sum up, CC folding into the IRL does not necessarilly have to be the end of the world for real racing fans - even CC die hards. It would take a lot of work on the IRL establishment's part, but it is possible. Of course that opens a new door for debate. Are they up to it? :D

I wouldn't say any of this yet. RM is the only source ,once again. TG wants parts of CC? Then there will be negotiations,nothing will be given to him, and he won't get it without paying.

If TG was in control and turned OW to his brand of racing and tracks ,you can bet there will be backlash. But that won't be the worst part.
Nascar will have the last laugh.

[Rogelio]

I wouldn't say any of this yet. RM is the only source ,once again. TG wants parts of CC? Then there will be negotiations,nothing will be given to him, and he won't get it without paying.

If TG was in control and turned OW to his brand of racing and tracks ,you can bet there will be backlash. But that won't be the worst part.
Nascar will have the last laugh.

NASCAR could care less about AOWR. During the early 90s, one could argue that NASCAR was concerned about the competition. Today, NASCAR dominates the market in the U.S. It will take years for AOWR to get back on their feet. For example, the Brickyard 500 attracts more fans than the Indy 500. NASCAR is a dominant financial institution that could care less about AOWR. NASCAR drivers are not fleeing to the IRL or CC. Unfortuantely, it is the other way around.

[heelntoe]

I wouldn't say any of this yet. RM is the only source ,once again. TG wants parts of CC? Then there will be negotiations,nothing will be given to him, and he won't get it without paying.

If TG was in control and turned OW to his brand of racing and tracks ,you can bet there will be backlash. But that won't be the worst part.
Nascar will have the last laugh.

Absolutely clueless post! TG has offered chassis and engines as an olive branch and the discussions have been going for three months. Most importantly, Carl Haas has come out and publicly stated his position. CCWS has nothing to bargain with and if they choose to continue after NHL and Walker move, they will go down in history as the worst businessmen ever to jump into open wheel racing with money and ego as the sole basis for failure. The only backlash that would occur is from a handful of delusional internet posters who won't be able to post their vitriol anymore...The rest of the world will be to busy working on how to take advantage of the fact that there's no longer the market confusion and nonsensical distractions, etc. Honda isn't going anywhere and you can bet that when this transition goes down, doors will open from other companies to give Honda the competition they want...as long as people work together...the love of the sport MUST outweigh the love of the hate...and Mike15, don't let the door hit ya' on the way out!

The hardest part of the process is what's happening now...who flinches in the CCWS camp when KK says everything's peachy for this season. I can promise you that KK is doing everything he can possibly do to somehow end up looking good...and the answer to that is not going to be easy, notwithstanding GF going through the same dilemma for slightly different reasons.

Lastly, if you don't think that TG will have major pressure on him to actually realize his marketing stinks and that major changes must be made as part of this transition, then you're even more out of touch with what needs to go down from a business level.

I have never been to an IRL race and only watched the 500 and a few races...I no longer have a dog in this race and for the sake of the survival of the sport, it needs everyone to understand that it cannot with CCWS plugging in its current state of disrepair...IMO, of course.

[Chaparral66]

I wouldn't say any of this yet. RM is the only source ,once again. TG wants parts of CC? Then there will be negotiations,nothing will be given to him, and he won't get it without paying.

If TG was in control and turned OW to his brand of racing and tracks ,you can bet there will be backlash. But that won't be the worst part.
Nascar will have the last laugh.

NASCAR already is having the last laugh. There were many reports coming out sometime after the split that Bill France Jr. was one of many who encouraged The Grandson to start his own series if he didn't like what was going on in CART. He did, obviously, and he played right into NASCAR's hands. Not even Bill France Jr. could have imaginedit working out this well. And all the time they were palying the game, working with TG and having IRL events at ISC tracks, while AOWR went down the tubes. Now ISC doesn't seem interested in IRL events anymore due to poor attendence, witness Fontana and Michigan, etc. NASCAR has become the synonym for racing in the US.

[cartpix]

I wouldn't say any of this yet. RM is the only source ,once again. TG wants parts of CC? Then there will be negotiations,nothing will be given to him, and he won't get it without paying.



You might want to climb down off your high horse, of Robin Miller hating. Take a step back & look around. Robin Miller is about the only person covering Champ Car, anymore. And before you start telling me about Mark C. & all the other dot com journalists, I am one & Robin is head and shoulders above, most of us, in experience, sources, & tenacity.

Jeff

[FlatChatRacer]

Starter, HeelnToe and CartPix are all right on the money with their insightful and rational posts.

Sanguin you are a real Cheerleader for CCWS on this forum, but don't for one minute think that others aren't as hurt and disappointed to see what is happening like you are.

I will never join you in making irrational and ridiculous statements about the health of Champ Car.

However, I love it just as much as you do, but I can clearly see that the end is near. Maybe the series will die in the next few weeks or months. Who knows, but one thing is for sure, is that there will NOT be a CCWS in 2009.

Deal with it and embrace the changes and help the rest of us fans to rebuild American Open Wheel Racing under one roof.

[nanders]

Point #3 -
There should be a decent, but probably temporary, bounce in interest from the general public if all the PR around the whole deal is done properly. A once again whole AOW will very definately have to pursue new directions and initiatives to have any future though. Time waits for no one and the world's energy needs are shifting away from fossil fuel sources. Even NASCAR will have to adjust to this sooner or later. What better opportunity to change direction over the next few years? Continue the Indy series as is while introducing a new support series to explore alternative energy sources. As enough interest and participation rises then the old series can be phased out, or forced to conform to, the new series and the new energy world. AOW could, and I emphasize the word could, be the leader in racing technology with all the benefits that go with that.

So, to sum up, CC folding into the IRL does not necessarilly have to be the end of the world for real racing fans - even CC die hards. It would take a lot of work on the IRL establishment's part, but it is possible. Of course that opens a new door for debate. Are they up to it? :D

They should introduce a Hydrogen Electric formula for 2011ish and go for it. IMO, Hydrogen Electric is where the manufactures want to go and if you want to see money pour back into the race teams anytime soon this should be done.


A part of me says that the merger would be good thing for both series. However, knowing that TG is going to have the upper hand is what discourages me. I honestly do not foresee TG wanting to unite the series for the sake of improving AOWR. I think his goal is the simple "destruction" of Champ Car.

Starter is probably right ... TG wants some assets including the official CART/CCWS history to add to his own. They started to fudge it in this year during their IRL broadcast.


If NHL leaves Champ Car, it should/will mark the end of the series. I do not want NHL to leave our series, but I would not blame them for leaving. Our series is not improving. The Amigos have their head up you know where. This will probably be the last year of Champ Car. Why would any of the teams want to be in a racing series that offers little hope of a better future?

What best for AOWR?

[sanguin]

Absolutely clueless post! TG has offered chassis and engines as an olive branch and the discussions have been going for three months. Most importantly, Carl Haas has come out and publicly stated his position. CCWS has nothing to bargain with and if they choose to continue after NHL and Walker move, they will go down in history as the worst businessmen ever to jump into open wheel racing with money and ego as the sole basis for failure. The only backlash that would occur is from a handful of delusional internet posters who won't be able to post their vitriol anymore...The rest of the world will be to busy working on how to take advantage of the fact that there's no longer the market confusion and nonsensical distractions, etc. Honda isn't going anywhere and you can bet that when this transition goes down, doors will open from other companies to give Honda the competition they want...as long as people work together...the love of the sport MUST outweigh the love of the hate...and Mike15, don't let the door hit ya' on the way out!

The hardest part of the process is what's happening now...who flinches in the CCWS camp when KK says everything's peachy for this season. I can promise you that KK is doing everything he can possibly do to somehow end up looking good...and the answer to that is not going to be easy, notwithstanding GF going through the same dilemma for slightly different reasons.

Lastly, if you don't think that TG will have major pressure on him to actually realize his marketing stinks and that major changes must be made as part of this transition, then you're even more out of touch with what needs to go down from a business level.

I have never been to an IRL race and only watched the 500 and a few races...I no longer have a dog in this race and for the sake of the survival of the sport, it needs everyone to understand that it cannot with CCWS plugging in its current state of disrepair...IMO, of course.

Now that's a clueless post!!! Please spare us if "you have no dog in this race."

[sanguin]

NASCAR already is having the last laugh. There were many reports coming out sometime after the split that Bill France Jr. was one of many who encouraged The Grandson to start his own series if he didn't like what was going on in CART. He did, obviously, and he played right into NASCAR's hands. Not even Bill France Jr. could have imaginedit working out this well. And all the time they were palying the game, working with TG and having IRL events at ISC tracks, while AOWR went down the tubes. Now ISC doesn't seem interested in IRL events anymore due to poor attendence, witness Fontana and Michigan, etc. NASCAR has become the synonym for racing in the US.

You're correct, except they certainly do still have an interest in what goes on in OW. France will never let TG or anyone become more successful than his series. If TG were in charge of OW, France would have no problem controling what goes on.It would be his own little feeder series.

[Lee Roy]

There were many reports coming out sometime after the split that Bill France Jr. was one of many who encouraged The Grandson to start his own series if he didn't like what was going on in CART.

But the only people who believed these "reports" were wearing tin-foil hats.

[heelntoe]

Now that's a clueless post!!! Please spare us if "you have no dog in this race."

I suggest you read FlatChat, Cartpix and Starter above as they have the balance of reality necessary to understand what we all need to be focusing on at this juncture...your fifteen minutes are over...don't make your posts a future coffee table book for us to chuckle over.

[sanguin]

I suggest you read FlatChat, Cartpix and Starter above as they have the balance of reality necessary to understand what we all need to be focusing on at this juncture...your fifteen minutes are over...don't make your posts a future coffee table book for us to chuckle over.

Don't worry,if TG were in charge, I'll have plenty to chuckle over. There will be forums started for the deathwatch crapfest. You've given us plenty of laughs already.Thanks :D

[djparky]

what a daft thread title- aside from a handful of die-hards 95% of the rest of the OW fanbase would rejoice at a reunification- however it happens-

if CCWS folds (and I hope it does) then I'll be sad that TG "won" the war (not a huge fan of Mr George) but I'll happy that this stupidity is finally over- wrap up Long Beach, Cleveland, Road America, Surfers and the 2 Canadian races into the newly reformed Indy Car World Series and just go racing-

it has to be run like a dictatorship- F1 and NASCAR have shown the way- CART/CCWS are classic examples of doing it the other way

when this day happens I'll crack open a few beers and celebrate the end of the split

[sanguin]

if CCWS folds (and I hope it does) then I'll be sad that TG "won" the war (not a huge fan of Mr George) but I'll happy that this stupidity is finally over- wrap up Long Beach, Cleveland, Road America, Surfers and the 2 Canadian races into the newly reformed Indy Car World Series and just go racing-

There already is a series with those events. TG doesn't want them, except to make them go away.

[nanders]

There already is a series with those events. TG doesn't want them, except to make them go away.

Speculation.

I'm speculating he wants Surfers, Toronto and Long Beach in his series and he won't mind if KK and GF hold the promoters rights.

[sanguin]

Speculation.

I'm speculating he wants Surfers, Toronto and Long Beach in his series and he won't mind if KK and GF hold the promoters rights.

dream on.

TG wants an all-american oval series.If he were in charge, there is nothing to stop him from getting it. Remember, its all about IMS and Indy. Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

[nanders]

dream on.

TG wants an all-american oval series.If he were in charge, there is nothing to stop him from getting it. Remember, its all about IMS and Indy. Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

Speculation again. Please provide a timely quote with a link where TG says, "wants an all-american oval series."

[Easy Drifter]

TG seems to have learned all ovals won't work. Attendance at most ovals without incentives is down. I feel TG has learned that any series must have a mix.
What many people forget, or are too young to know, is the Grandpa Tony ran the 500 his way. AAA, USAC and CART did what Old Tony wanted no matter what their rules said. You played by the Hulman rules.
TG is carrying on tradition. He just wanted to extend it to an entire series and has. I think he has the upper hand now thanks to CC's total mismanagement of their series.
I do not like TG but I will watch the races. Hatred gets us nowhere.

[cartpix]

dream on.

TG wants an all-american oval series.If he were in charge, there is nothing to stop him from getting it. Remember, its all about IMS and Indy. Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it.

This post is beyond moronic! If Tony George didn't want Long Beach, why did he try to buy it at the bankruptcy trial & at least once, later? If he wanted an all oval series, why did he add road & street courses, to the IRL schedule. He tried the all oval thing. IT DIDN'T WORK!!! Then he changed the course of his original vision. That's the part most of the TG haters, don't seem to notice. He adapts to what doesn't work. That's why he's on top, right now.

Oh yeah, I forgot, his series is in as bad a shape as Champ Car. With all those pesky sponsors, live TV, paid to be on TV, only one manufacturer, and all those old CART teams. My bad...

Jeff

[nanders]

I do not like TG but I will watch the races. Hatred gets us nowhere.

Don't give up on hate. We can still hate *TG.

But really, it will be easier to affect chance on the inside then the outside. Once Tony has all the "teams" back, then the teams will be able to band together to apply their pressure. When all that's being thought about is the operation of the one series and KK's and GF's races are part of the schedule, then a different kind of negotiations can take place. A manufactures organization, a promoters organization and a team organization can be brought to bare. Tony won't be able to operate in a vacuum when he has to look them all in the eye on a regular basis. Even if GF an KK don't get a penny or a controlling share, but still have their promoters rights and their teams they can be highly influential. Not only that, they will have other powerful parties to help them out.

See there's still allot to be rung out of ole TG.

[sanguin]

This post is beyond moronic! If Tony George didn't want Long Beach, why did he try to buy it at the bankruptcy trial & at least once, later? If he wanted an all oval series, why did he add road & street courses, to the IRL schedule. He tried the all oval thing. IT DIDN'T WORK!!! Then he changed the course of his original vision. That's the part most of the TG haters, don't seem to notice. He adapts to what doesn't work. That's why he's on top, right now.

Oh yeah, I forgot, his series is in as bad a shape as Champ Car. With all those pesky sponsors, live TV, paid to be on TV, only one manufacturer, and all those old CART teams. My bad...

Jeff

You think TG really cares about LB? anything that doesn't serve the purpose of IMS or the 500 is expendable.

Have you seen the team and car count for the IRL? they are in the same boat that CC is , only the small teams don't have a chance of winning.

[tbyars]

You guys have to remember that sanguin has a tremendous psychological stake in all this. He has made so many outragous posts over the past few months that he realizes now he looks like quite a fool. I don't care who you are, that hurts.

I will say this for him. I think he has probably believed nearly everything he has posted here. We jokingly use the term "drink the kool-aid," but the truth is that some folks really do. He believes what he says simply because it gets him some attention, and we all like that when we can pull it off.

And he likes - and would like - nothing better than to gloat back in our faces. Most of us all know that isn't going to happen at this point, but he's the master of throwing it at the wall to see if it sticks. Every rare now and then, surprisingly, it does. And that just encourages him to try it again.

Mike15 and jimispeed are the true, real fans, and they are really having their world shaken right now.

Sanguin is just having to work harder to keep ahead of his.

[sanguin]

Don't give up on hate. We can still hate *TG.

But really, it will be easier to affect chance on the inside then the outside. Once Tony has all the "teams" back, then the teams will be able to band together to apply their pressure. When all that's being thought about is the operation of the one series and KK's and GF's races are part of the schedule, then a different kind of negotiations can take place. A manufactures organization, a promoters organization and a team organization can be brought to bare. Tony won't be able to operate in a vacuum when he has to look them all in the eye on a regular basis. Even if GF an KK don't get a penny or a controlling share, but still have their promoters rights and their teams they can be highly influential. Not only that, they will have other powerful parties to help them out.

See there's still allot to be rung out of ole TG.

When has TG ever shown he cares about the teams or manufacturers? They can apply pressure all they want, he has control and there is no where else to go unless they leave OW. There will always be someone to take their place because there won't be any other OW competition.
It's about IMS and INDY.

[sanguin]

You guys have to remember that sanguin has a tremendous psychological stake in all this. He has made so many outragous posts over the past few months that he realizes now he looks like quite a fool. I don't care who you are, that hurts.

I will say this for him. I think he has probably believed nearly everything he has posted here. We jokingly use the term "drink the kool-aid," but the truth is that some folks really do. He believes what he says simply because it gets him some attention, and we all like that when we can pull it off.

And he likes - and would like - nothing better than to gloat back in our faces. Most of us all know that isn't going to happen at this point, but he's the master of throwing it at the wall to see if it sticks. Every rare now and then, surprisingly, it does. And that just encourages him to try it again.

Mike15 and jimispeed are the true, real fans, and they are really having their world shaken right now.

Sanguin is just having to work harder to keep ahead of his.

lol,all these personal attacks. you guys crack me up. If TG gets control, which remains to be seen,there will be plenty of forums for the deathwatch of the crapfest. :D

[heelntoe]

Don't worry,if TG were in charge, I'll have plenty to chuckle over. There will be forums started for the deathwatch crapfest. You've given us plenty of laughs already.Thanks :D

Unbelievable stupidity. TG will be in charge very shortly and the meltdown at Fantasy Island will be hysterical...and dude, there's only one direction the laughter is going now...keep digging, should be a while before you reach China :)

[FlatChatRacer]

Cartpix,

Sanguin is sounding a lot like "Baghdad Bob" towards the end of the Iraqi regime.

Tony George may have started the split in 1996, but no one can blame him for the demise of the resurrected CCWS. He hurt CART a lot, and arguably contributed greatly to it's death at the end of 2003.

However, he is NOT responsible for the parlous state that CCWS is in. The series is drawing it's final few breaths and is about to die. Tony George cannot be blamed for that.

If we have to look for culprits, the current ownership team are to blame. They have consistently mismanaged a viable product since mid 2005.

Stupid decisions like running far more races than they needed to and continually trying to put on a race in Asia. Not to mention the totally unnecessary Non-NAFTA events (save for Australia). Introducing the DP01.
Alienating sponsors, race track owners, sanctioning bodies, the list goes on.
Unforgiveable own goals, like losing marketable drivers (Allmendinger, Jourdain and Hunter Reay) to name a few.

CCWS could have saved so much money by only running 10 races per year, with the sole external race being in Surfers Paradise.

Finally and fatally, they never ever worked out a situation where the CCWS teams could compete at Indy every year and still remain within the CCWS fold. Instead of paying a huge amount of dollars for a new car (DP01), an astute businessman would have redirected that money into promotion and helping the teams to compete at Indy for FREE.

I would NOT have produced a new car. I would have ditched the Lola and bought 18 or so, IRL/Indy 500 legal Dallaras/Panoz G Force chassis and provided them free to the CCWS teams. Every year CCWS teams would go to
Indy eligible to win prize money. So what if it made the Indy 500 super competitive and raised the profile of the INDY 500. It's a great race and is the marquee event on AOWR. Like it or not the INDY 500 has the same cachet as "Le Mans", "Daytona 500" and "Monte Carlo".

That way our teams would compete for free in the Indy 500 and critically, they could sell FULL one year sponsorship to American companies, just using the Indy 500 name alone. The beauty of this approach would be that a CCWS team could give a sponsor the Indy 500, Long Beach and Toronto.

The only reason this wasn't done was ego on the part of the CCWS teams. This idea is not new and worked very well for Chip Ganassi and JP Montoya in 2000.

Why oh why didn't Kevin and Gerry think about this and do it. EGO!!!!
They didn't want to be seen to support a race that Tony controlled.
Well, guess what, it won't matter anymore very soon. Due to their short sightedness, a potentially viable series is dying a death.

If I were the Champ Car teams I would jump ship or go somewhere else now and forget about waiting until 2009.

[garyshell]

Don't give up on hate. We can still hate *TG.

But really, it will be easier to affect chance on the inside then the outside. Once Tony has all the "teams" back, then the teams will be able to band together to apply their pressure. When all that's being thought about is the operation of the one series and KK's and GF's races are part of the schedule, then a different kind of negotiations can take place. A manufactures organization, a promoters organization and a team organization can be brought to bare. Tony won't be able to operate in a vacuum when he has to look them all in the eye on a regular basis. Even if GF an KK don't get a penny or a controlling share, but still have their promoters rights and their teams they can be highly influential. Not only that, they will have other powerful parties to help them out.

See there's still allot to be rung out of ole TG.

Oooooooooo! Now THERE is a thought. Combine then conquer! You might just be on to something Nanders. I have been calling for the revolution of the team owners, but while they are in two camps, this is gonna be hard to accomplish. With them in a single camp it would be considerably easier.

I too, will NEVER give up my total disdain for "...king George" and Michael "the whiner" Andretti. But, I have NEVER extended that feeling toward any of the other owners or drivers.

Gary

[Miatanut]

Oooooooooo! Now THERE is a thought. Combine then conquer! You might just be on to something Nanders. I have been calling for the revolution of the team owners, but while they are in two camps, this is gonna be hard to accomplish. With them in a single camp it would be considerably easier.

I too, will NEVER give up my total disdain for "...king George" and Michael "the whiner" Andretti. But, I have NEVER extended that feeling toward any of the other owners or drivers.

Gary

I would substitute Pimpski for Michael the whiner. Other than that, Right On! :up:

[twisted steel]

So Open Wheel racing is going to be in better shape with one badly run business as opposed to two?

Does Tony George and the IRL find new ways to operate because of the death of Champcar?

The combined fan total of both IRL and Champcar is not that large.

I hate the thought of losing my favourite series but the way it's run it deserves to go.

As for the IRL they have never really capitilized on anything so the addition of anything from Champcar's death will be like adding Honda,Penske,Marcomania or Danica Patrick.The more things change the more they stay the same.

When has TG ever shown he cares about the teams or manufacturers?

If that is true, why do you also claim that he is panicking about Honda?

Your logic has come undone.

[indycool]

This thread is a record for inaccuracies and thinking from Mars.

Starter's post on page 1 is pretty good thinkin'.....and as far as fuels go, the IRL already has a deal with fuel-grade ethanol and those distilled corn cobs run through the Hondas just fine.

If RM is correct and Forsythe wants $100 million as part of the deal, well....OWRS bought CART's assets off the courthouse steps for $3.1 million four years ago. Someone tell me how its value has appreciated 33 times in four years. TG is NOT going to compensate Forsythe or KK or anyone else who has thrown good money after bad.

Anymore, the only place a war is being fought is the racing forums and F-Troop is the leader of the CC band. We've gone half a generation now with two separate series. So, there are a lot of 12-year-olds out there who only know about some kind of split from what they're told by older folk. That's IF they've been exposed to either side. Maybe hatred can be passed along by those who have decided to hate. Wonderful.

[sanguin]

If RM is correct and Forsythe wants $100 million as part of the deal, well....OWRS bought CART's assets off the courthouse steps for $3.1 million four years ago. Someone tell me how its value has appreciated 33 times in four years.

Maybe they want LB and Toronto included with a deal.

[heelntoe]

Maybe they want LB and Toronto included with a deal.

I might be mistaken, but did you not write just yesterday that if TG were running the one series, it would be totally ovalcentric? If so, why would he want to buy these two races? Everyone should read the merger update over at paddock...., because it has some interesting info...specifically, that KK and GF are at odds over the deal and KK is in Indy (while TG is in Daytona?)

[djparky]

You think TG really cares about LB? anything that doesn't serve the purpose of IMS or the 500 is expendable.

Have you seen the team and car count for the IRL? they are in the same boat that CC is , only the small teams don't have a chance of winning.

yes the car count in the IRL is poor- but how many drivers does CCWS have right now??? 2 or 3???? outside of NHL who else has a genuine chance of winning in CCWS?? There is a reason why they've won the last 4 championships whilst barely breaking into a sweat

The Indy 500 was and still is the most important OW race in the USA- CCWS/CART never understood that- but it needs to be at the heart of a thriving series

The fact that the IRL has added more road/street tracks to the schedule would seem to suggest that it's moved on from the oval-centric series it used to be???

[sanguin]

I might be mistaken, but did you not write just yesterday that if TG were running the one series, it would be totally ovalcentric? If so, why would he want to buy these two races? Everyone should read the merger update over at paddock...., because it has some interesting info...specifically, that KK and GF are at odds over the deal and KK is in Indy (while TG is in Daytona?)

LB and Toronto are a means to an end. He needs them to get what he wants, after that ,they are expendable.

[sanguin]

yes the car count in the IRL is poor- but how many drivers does CCWS have right now??? 2 or 3???? outside of NHL who else has a genuine chance of winning in CCWS?? There is a reason why they've won the last 4 championships whilst barely breaking into a sweat

The Indy 500 was and still is the most important OW race in the USA- CCWS/CART never understood that- but it needs to be at the heart of a thriving series

The fact that the IRL has added more road/street tracks to the schedule would seem to suggest that it's moved on from the oval-centric series it used to be???

CC had a new car this year and SB still won,he is a good driver. The new car put multiple teams on the podium.

The IRL is failing with Indy.

TG has had to tolerate street races and RC's because of attendance problems and the split. If he were in charge,who could stop him from dropping them and making them go away?

It's all about IMS and Indy.

[heelntoe]

LB and Toronto are a means to an end. He needs them to get what he wants, after that ,they are expendable.

No, actually they are not. TG would never buy those assets simply for spite...for spite, you should probably talk to GF,who apparently is at odds with KK about moving forward because of spite...can't wait to see this thing play out...so many of these silly posts will be great entertainment looking back.

[sanguin]

No, actually they are not. TG would never buy those assets simply for spite...for spite, you should probably talk to GF,who apparently is at odds with KK about moving forward because of spite...can't wait to see this thing play out...so many of these silly posts will be great entertainment looking back.

No kidding, TG doesn't want to buy them ,he rather just not renew their contracts. Just as he does with other venues. Make outrageous sanction fees ,fiddle with the date. It's everyone elses' fault but his. We've been schooled in the TG way of business these last 12 years.

That's why I would make him buy them so he is responsible.

[mike15]

This all comes down to a quality of product issue.
Even with all the flaws of CART and Champ Car management they still did not stray from the spirit of AOWR when it came to the product. You can talk all you want about the early flaws of the DP01 but the reality is it maintained the spirit of AOWR by breaking one track record after another.

In 13 years and with the I500 the IRL has not distanced itself from CART or Champ Car.
Why is that?

In simple terms it has always been the Quality of the IRL product vs. CART and now Champ Car.

A single series under the IMS rules with the IRL product will not help AOWR to reverse the downward spiral. In fact it may help point the finger at IMS as the main problem with AOWR, because it will have all the main ingredients that has held it back.

The problem will become clear. As much as AOWR fans want a single series, they do not want the IRL product.

[P.E.B]

It's all about Indy and IMS.---As it should be.
There would be no AOWR without it.

[ChaimWitz]

This all comes down to a quality of product issue.
Even with all the flaws of CART and Champ Car management they still did not stray from the spirit of AOWR when it came to the product. You can talk all you want about the early flaws of the DP01 but the reality is it maintained the spirit of AOWR by breaking one track record after another.

In 13 years and with the I500 the IRL has not distanced itself from CART or Champ Car.
Why is that?

In simple terms it has always been the Quality of the IRL product vs. CART and now Champ Car.

A single series under the IMS rules with the IRL product will not help AOWR to reverse the downward spiral. In fact it may help point the finger at IMS as the main problem with AOWR, because it will have all the main ingredients that has held it back.

The problem will become clear. As much as AOWR fans want a single series, they do not want the IRL product.

And you are telling us that the fans want the Champ Car product? This is just plain delusional. ChampCar is down to only six races in the United States for a reason...

[sanguin]

This all comes down to a quality of product issue.
Even with all the flaws of CART and Champ Car management they still did not stray from the spirit of AOWR when it came to the product. You can talk all you want about the early flaws of the DP01 but the reality is it maintained the spirit of AOWR by breaking one track record after another.

In 13 years and with the I500 the IRL has not distanced itself from CART or Champ Car.
Why is that?

In simple terms it has always been the Quality of the IRL product vs. CART and now Champ Car.

A single series under the IMS rules with the IRL product will not help AOWR to reverse the downward spiral. In fact it may help point the finger at IMS as the main problem with AOWR, because it will have all the main ingredients that has held it back.

The problem will become clear. As much as AOWR fans want a single series, they do not want the IRL product.

I agree.

[garyshell]

If that is true, why do you also claim that he is panicking about Honda?

Your logic has come undone.


How can something come undone, if it never existed in the first place???

Inquiring minds want to know.

Gary

[garyshell]

It's all about Indy and IMS.---As it should be.
There would be no AOWR without it.

Sentence number 3 is true. However sentences #1 and #2, are EXACTLY what got us into this mess. IMS is VERY important, make no mistake about that, but it is not the ONLY thing that is important. My only hope is that "...king George" finally realizes this if the combined series comes to fruition.

Gary

[FlatChatRacer]

Garyshell,

Tony George created the IRL because he thought CART was straying from the central purpose of AOWR, diminishing the importance of the INDY 500, and finally not giving him much respect and kudos for being at the helm of IMS.

Now, 13 years later it looks like his version of AOWR is going to prevail, albeit with some major tweaks and compromises.

As you say, we can only hope that TG realizes what damage has been done and works hard behind the scenes to repair burnt bridges. The relative egos of the rival ownership groups have a lot to do with why a unification did not take place previously.

This unification needs to happen this year. If I were TG, I would swallow my pride and offer NHL and PKV a financial incentive to crossover. However, I would keep that ultra secret, so the existing IRL teams did not get jealous. If NHL and PKV, 2 out of the 3 major CCWS teams crossover, then the domino effect will take place and the unification will be "fait-a-complit" (wrong spelling).

I am not an IRL supporter, but right now I simply cannot support the CCWS ownership group as they are mismanaging the Open Wheel series I like and admire into oblivion.

Put simply, I want a change of ownership for CCWS. It hurts too much to see it limping along like a wounded animal, whilst being stalked by a much stronger hunter.

[beachgirl]

The problem will become clear. As much as AOWR fans want a single series, they do not want the IRL product.

You know what? I'm really tired of posters like the above telling me what I do and do not want. Do not pretend or assume to speak for me. CART was the ultimate racing for me. I was very upset when it died. I'm a devoted Champ Car fan, but it's dead. Some people here just don't want to accept the fact. I've always watched the IRL product (except in 2005 when Danicamania made me sick). I love racing, not just one small facet of motorsport. I refuse to spite myself just because I really don't care for the owner of the series. Spite is a child's reaction - I'll show you, I'll hurt me. I certainly watched CCWS (at least the ones we could actually get), and I will very much miss it. But that's life. It was mismanaged (don't bother with the "you don't know what the 5 year plan was" - from what can be seen of it, there either wasn't one or it was one that no astute businessmen would have continued), and it has tanked.

I'm done now. Excuse me while I go back to the Rolex. Which really does beat both the CCWS and the IRL for action and enjoyment.

[Andrewmcm]

You know what? I'm really tired of posters like the above telling me what I do and do not want.

Likewise - I'm intelligent enough to be able to make my own mind up about what I do or do not want from a racing series.

[Mikeall]

Why doesn't Champ Car just leave North America and move to Asia?

[nanders]

0
This unification needs to happen this year. If I were TG, I would swallow my pride and offer NHL and PKV a financial incentive to crossover. However, I would keep that ultra secret, so the existing IRL teams did not get jealous. If NHL and PKV, 2 out of the 3 major CCWS teams crossover, then the domino effect will take place and the unification will be "fait-a-complit" (wrong spelling).

Flat, I believe it is already a "done deal." I believe that what ever has to be agreed upon is already agreed upon and the party's involved have a target date in the future to announce the the "merger." Please reference: http://www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=10448. Where 'Ganassi said. "The IndyCar Series is about to get jump-started with some big things happening this year. I just want to grow and I want to win."' I'm thinking the Chipster knows something.

I know I'm going out on a limb here, but I would not doubt that they have a 09 title sponsor all lined up for a "unified series."

I've been thinking it's about time for a "Merger Conspiracy Theory" thread. IMO, there is too much momentum for this deal not to already have foundation laid.

[djparky]

No kidding, TG doesn't want to buy them ,he rather just not renew their contracts. Just as he does with other venues. Make outrageous sanction fees ,fiddle with the date. It's everyone elses' fault but his. We've been schooled in the TG way of business these last 12 years.

That's why I would make him buy them so he is responsible.

err yeah...mmm how many times has CCWS changed it's race dates over the last few years- if I recall Road America was on/off at least 3 or 4 times in the run up to race date....and then there is China/ Korea and the European races from last season which if I recall changed a couple of times

[FlatChatRacer]

I'm with Beachgirl and Andrewmcm,
I don't need to be told what I want from an AOWR series. I can make up my own mind.

Nanders,
Interesting read. I agree and think you are onto something. I hope that the picture becomes clear in the next few weeks and months rather than 2009.

I want one series now, not next year. If Tony George is in charge of a unified series then so be it. I am mature enough to admit that he has done a better job of administering his series than KK and GF have done administering Champ Car.

It's time to forget the past and give him a chance to see what he does with a unified series.

[mike15]

I'm done now. Excuse me while I go back to the Rolex. Which really does beat both the CCWS and the IRL for action and enjoyment.

Without going any further you just discribed the problem in AOWR.

[beachgirl]

Which, in your opinion and without hate-baiting the head of either series, is......?

[mike15]

Which, in your opinion and without hate-baiting the head of either series, is......?

It was your own statement the you prefered the action and enjoyment of the Rolex series over AOWR.

"Excuse me while I go back to the Rolex. Which really does beat both the CCWS and the IRL for action and enjoyment."

[seppefan]

what a daft thread title- aside from a handful of die-hards 95% of the rest of the OW fanbase would rejoice at a reunification- however it happens-

if CCWS folds (and I hope it does) then I'll be sad that TG "won" the war (not a huge fan of Mr George) but I'll happy that this stupidity is finally over- wrap up Long Beach, Cleveland, Road America, Surfers and the 2 Canadian races into the newly reformed Indy Car World Series and just go racing-

it has to be run like a dictatorship- F1 and NASCAR have shown the way- CART/CCWS are classic examples of doing it the other way

when this day happens I'll crack open a few beers and celebrate the end of the split

Good post but the most important bit is

" It has to be run as a dictatorship "
BUT.....by TG....oh help, come on Roger Penske

[beachbum]

Without going any further you just discribed the problem in AOWR.One of the main problems in AOWR is the fact that some fans, (not that many based on posts here and at even at fanatics) are unable to appreciate a good motor race unless it is in "their" series. They are wearing blinders and missing a lot of great racing action around the world of motor sports.

The Rolex isn't directly comparable to CCWS as it is a very different form of racing. It is enjoyable in a different way. Endurance racing is about the whole team and how they cope, the strategies, how hard they can race without breaking, how they handle extreme traffic, and yes even the wheel to wheel racing. Racers are racers, and they all get the red mist and try to pass the next guy, even if they seem to be cruising. If you watched, you could have seen Roger Penske's face when he was asked early in the morning if he had been up all night. His eyes really lit up when he said "Oh yeah." He is a racer. He gets it.

Just because I see beauty in one object doesn't mean all other objects must therefore be ugly. I can appreciate CCWS for what it is (or was) and still enjoy other forms of racing. It is your loss if you can't, not mine.

[mike15]

One of the main problems in AOWR is the fact that some fans, (not that many based on posts here and at even at fanatics) are unable to appreciate a good motor race unless it is in "their" series. They are wearing blinders and missing a lot of great racing action around the world of motor sports.

Lets make this simple.

Appreciating and preferring have different connotations.

I can appreciate most all types of racing but I prefer Champ Car.

There was a day when AOWR was THE preferred type of racing in America.

The views on what makes a good motor race are as wide as comparing a row boat with a cruise ship.

[indycool]

CC and AOWR are not synonymous.

[nanders]

One of the main problems in AOWR is the fact that some fans, (not that many based on posts here and at even at fanatics) are unable to appreciate a good motor race unless it is in "their" series. They are wearing blinders and missing a lot of great racing action around the world of motor sports.

I'm hoping for an IMSA GTP comeback :p

[bblocker68]

I'll take a 962 to go, please.............

[Ice Man]

AOWR is not on death watch the CCWS is.

The IRL despite what is said has plenty to survive on for four or five years at least.They have morphed into a second CART but clearly have a better business than the old CART and a blind man could tell they are light years ahead of CCWS.

The IRL has much of what CART had and as a bonus they have Indy.What CC have? Long Beach? The race is nothing compared to to Indy.CCWS needed a race that would turn heads not a bunch of street races or road races in the middle of nowhere.

The three morons should have made a deal with TG that would have gotten them back to Indy.

Until the Amigos realize that if they still want to run there own series they have to be apart of Indy,CC isn't going anywhere.If they did it would be the first time they thought of someone besides themselves.

[ChaimWitz]

AOWR is not on death watch the CCWS is.

The IRL despite what is said has plenty to survive on for four or five years at least.They have morphed into a second CART but clearly have a better business than the old CART and a blind man could tell they are light years ahead of CCWS.

The IRL has much of what CART had and as a bonus they have Indy.What CC have? Long Beach? The race is nothing compared to to Indy.CCWS needed a race that would turn heads not a bunch of street races or road races in the middle of nowhere.

The three morons should have made a deal with TG that would have gotten them back to Indy.

Until the Amigos realize that if they still want to run there own series they have to be apart of Indy,CC isn't going anywhere.If they did it would be the first time they thought of someone besides themselves.

Ice Man, I think you must be new here. Welcome to Purgatory! Enjoy your visit but please be warned that there are operatives here spreading disinformation. They claim that everything is well in a certain open wheel series that has been around since 1909 errrr I mean 2004. Don't fret, they should be pretty easy to spot. If you smell beef jerky and whine on their breath please be careful. One last tip: They also usually have a four foot long trail of Kirkland toilet paper stuck to one or both of their shoes.

[indycool]

One thing I agree on with Ice Man: This idea of "All Open Wheel Racing" is a term that was invented to make CART look bigger and more important in the early days of the split, as if the entire sport was riding on a wondrous CART victory.

And it's entirely untrue. Nobody used the term "open wheel racing" much previously, anyway. These particular cars were the Indy cars throughout CART's tenure till the split. And those who race midgets, supermodifieds, sprinters, Silver Crown cars, funny cars, karts, etc. are indeed a part of the term "all open wheel racing." In fact, oldtimers still call Silver Crown cars "Champ Cars," a term of LONG standing with them.

[sanguin]

AOWR is not on death watch the CCWS is.

The IRL despite what is said has plenty to survive on for four or five years at least.They have morphed into a second CART but clearly have a better business than the old CART and a blind man could tell they are light years ahead of CCWS.

The IRL has much of what CART had and as a bonus they have Indy.What CC have? Long Beach? The race is nothing compared to to Indy.CCWS needed a race that would turn heads not a bunch of street races or road races in the middle of nowhere.

The three morons should have made a deal with TG that would have gotten them back to Indy.

Until the Amigos realize that if they still want to run there own series they have to be apart of Indy,CC isn't going anywhere.If they did it would be the first time they thought of someone besides themselves.

hmmm, you'd think the IRL would be more successful and TG wouldn't have to offer bribes to CC teams.

[indycool]

Link?

[nanders]

AOWR is not on death watch the CCWS is.

The IRL despite what is said has plenty to survive on for four or five years at least.They have morphed into a second CART but clearly have a better business than the old CART and a blind man could tell they are light years ahead of CCWS.

The IRL has much of what CART had and as a bonus they have Indy.What CC have? Long Beach? The race is nothing compared to to Indy.CCWS needed a race that would turn heads not a bunch of street races or road races in the middle of nowhere.

The three morons should have made a deal with TG that would have gotten them back to Indy.

Until the Amigos realize that if they still want to run there own series they have to be apart of Indy,CC isn't going anywhere.If they did it would be the first time they thought of someone besides themselves.

Don't you love it when a guy making his first 2 post, is way radical and nearly belligerent? Hi Ice Man nice to know ya.

[indycool]

2 posts or 2,000, but yes, a "rookie" here, but he really didn't say anything I haven't read here in some form before.

[Mark in Oshawa]

More nonsense on both sides going back and forth.

I haven't missed much in the last 4 months I haven't been able to visit. Still wont have a lot of time but I am enjoying some people never change.

Lets get to the reality here. OW racing is not on a death watch, but it is in the hospital. That said, the guys who many of us put some much faith in to get us out of the hospital have landed the series in Intensive Care. The only thing keeping the CCWS alive right now is deep pockets on the part of the Amigo's, and these numb nuts are getting tired of this game....

Tony maybe a twit in many people's eyes, but he made a shrewd offer this month.......and it may be the tipping point.

[namarow]

I would support a merger with conditions. If TG is incharge, no thanks. If it is mostly ovals, not thanks too.

I hate the ***** way to much . I live acriss the street from Toronto, but will be up north waterskiing if the TG show comes to TO.

[Cart750hp]

I would support a merger with conditions. If TG is incharge, no thanks. If it is mostly ovals, not thanks too.

If CC merge with IRL, TG is most likely to be the guy in control. I don't agree with it but hey, it's better than KK/GF/PG's leadership. Lies and BS alone, CC management has full of it. For the past 4 years of CC, they beat TG's 12 BS years. At this point, I'd prefer anyone than KK/GF/PG's leadership.


I hate the ***** way to much . I live acriss the street from Toronto, but will be up north waterskiing if the TG show comes to TO.

Oh well, you'll miss the fun.

[Ice Man]

Don't you love it when a guy making his first 2 post, is way radical and nearly belligerent? Hi Ice Man nice to know ya.
In what way was I belligerent or radical?

[Ice Man]

Ice Man, I think you must be new here. Welcome to Purgatory! Enjoy your visit but please be warned that there are operatives here spreading disinformation. They claim that everything is well in a certain open wheel series that has been around since 1909 errrr I mean 2004. Don't fret, they should be pretty easy to spot. If you smell beef jerky and whine on their breath please be careful. One last tip: They also usually have a four foot long trail of Kirkland toilet paper stuck to one or both of their shoes.

Thanks!I think everyone has on this board has at least one thing in common.We all want the old CART back. Screw the politics and lets go racing.If a couple of people are willing to hold grudge and miss out on the fun then they must not have ever really been race fans to begin with.

[indycool]

Welcome back, Mark.......your voice of sanity has been missed.

[tbyars]

Welcome back, Mark.......your voice of sanity has been missed.

I want the ticket concession to Mark vs. Sanguin

[Cart750hp]

I want the ticket concession to Mark vs. Sanguin

Mark's been working hard and no doubt my money is on him. Anyone taking the other guy? Anyone?

[indycool]

Not me on that bet.

And tb, I'll buy the first ticket.

[seppefan]

Note my comment under who is in charge.

[mike15]

Nothing has changed in the merger talks.

The innovative that brought me to American Open Wheel Racing more than 50years ago will be gone. This has nothing to do with hate or any other moniker you want to attach but has everything to do with technology and being the best racing series in America. With the proposed merger it is a homogenization of what we knew as AOWR into the best go kart series in America.

At one time AOWR challenged the world of Open Wheel Racing under this proposed agreement AOWR will always be a lesser series both in America and around the world.

[indycool]

Mike, if that stirs your drink, then it does.

This term "AOWR" and "challenging the world" stuff is pointless. "All Open Wheel Racing?" Haven't you ever seen a tricked-up supermodified? "All Open Wheel Racing" isn't the rise and/or fall of CART/CC.

"Challenging the world?" Why? For what? Ain't no trophy.

[mike15]

Mike, if that stirs your drink, then it does.

This term "AOWR" and "challenging the world" stuff is pointless. "All Open Wheel Racing?" Haven't you ever seen a tricked-up supermodified? "All Open Wheel Racing" isn't the rise and/or fall of CART/CC.

"Challenging the world?" Why? For what? Ain't no trophy.

That attitude is exactly why America is loosing it's status in the WORLD.
That is why foreign produced products have taken over America. That is why foreign drivers have been dominating Open Wheel Racing.

As it stands now, even if there were a World trophy, America could not win it.

[indycool]

Baloney. Many around the world consider the Indianapolis 500 too fast and too dangerous for their road-racing stars but a 19-year-old college girl named Sarah Fisher qualified for the race at over 224 one year and she didn't wuss.

The "challenge" for an American sports entity is to grow to a solid foothold in front of American sports fans. After that, and ONLY after that, THEN it becomes exportable in time. See MLB, NFL Europe.

Foreign drivers are prevalent in racing over here because they started their careers with the engine in the back. We don't see many of them in NASCAR.

[mike15]

Baloney. Many around the world consider the Indianapolis 500 too fast and too dangerous for their road-racing stars but a 19-year-old college girl named Sarah Fisher qualified for the race at over 224 one year and she didn't wuss.

The "challenge" for an American sports entity is to grow to a solid foothold in front of American sports fans. After that, and ONLY after that, THEN it becomes exportable in time. See MLB, NFL Europe.

Foreign drivers are prevalent in racing over here because they started their careers with the engine in the back. We don't see many of them in NASCAR.
As I said American athletes are great as long as they are competing against Americans. Put them in ring of world competition and they faulter. Even the (WITH) Tiger Woods, America can't win the Ryder cup. Oylimpic Basketball with American NBA professionals loose in world compition.

ENGINES IN THE BACK?
When rear engines were first introduced at Indy all today's top drivers were not even born. Most drivers start in go-karts and guess where those engines are? That rear engine excuse does not fly anymore for OW racing.

[indycool]

Great. Then car owners can hire some supermodified, sprint and midget drivers who started in karts too then. Somebody who runs every Saturday night somewhere in the country in front of fans instead of SCCA regional non-spectator events. Hope the three of us can convince them by posting.

[garyshell]

Nothing has changed in the merger talks.

The innovative that brought me to American Open Wheel Racing more than 50years ago will be gone. This has nothing to do with hate or any other moniker you want to attach but has everything to do with technology and being the best racing series in America. With the proposed merger it is a homogenization of what we knew as AOWR into the best go kart series in America.

At one time AOWR challenged the world of Open Wheel Racing under this proposed agreement AOWR will always be a lesser series both in America and around the world.


The innovation has been gone for quite a while. For me it ended with the "run what ya brung" days of the 500, arguably it could be stated that it ended with the adoption of a single formula on both sides of the aisle. But to pretend that NOW the innovation will be over flies in the face of the facts.

Gary

[indycool]

In an energy-conscious society, guess the innovation of ethanol to power a car at 225 at Indy as a fuel is proving an innovative alternative in the overall industry.

[ShiftingGears]

Nothing has changed in the merger talks.

The innovative that brought me to American Open Wheel Racing more than 50years ago will be gone. This has nothing to do with hate or any other moniker you want to attach but has everything to do with technology and being the best racing series in America. With the proposed merger it is a homogenization of what we knew as AOWR into the best go kart series in America.

At one time AOWR challenged the world of Open Wheel Racing under this proposed agreement AOWR will always be a lesser series both in America and around the world.

CCWS brought nothing to the table in terms of innovation. They brought a stupid gimmick called P2P to mask its own shortcomings, but besides from that, nothing. The innovation has already gone from CCWS.

From an innovation standpoint your perspective that AOWR will be worse off after the merger is wrong.

[nanders]

In an energy-conscious society, guess the innovation of ethanol to power a car at 225 at Indy as a fuel is proving an innovative alternative in the overall industry.

I'd call it innovative in the 1960's. It's a sideways move in this century.

[EagleEye]

YES, This is not about merger or unification. Make no mistake about it. This is about Killing off Champ Car and Control of all OW. Once everything is gone and out of the way, there will be no more challenges or options. It will be scorched earth.

There will be no compromise or promises. There will be no fan or team input.

There will be no stopping the plan that is put forward. Everyone will fall in line by choice or "kicking and screaming".

RIP OW

:vader:


Haas, Newman, Wilson, Rahal, Walker, Forsythe, Tracy, Vasser, Tags, Servia, Wiggins, Lanigan, ABC/ESPN, and everyone else i have TALKED to, are thrilled at even the most remote chance that there will be one series.

Since you have run and hid from the question posed to you on three other occasions, WHO HAVE YoU TALKED TO DIRECTLY, AND WHAT DID THEY TELL YOU????? Right, you have not talked to anyone.

You have a right to your opinion, but it is not shared by thsoe that make a living through the sport. so, in my opinion, your thoughts are meaningless.

[mike15]

In an energy-conscious society, guess the innovation of ethanol to power a car at 225 at Indy as a fuel is proving an innovative alternative in the overall industry.

Not according to the lates reports.

"So much for the halo effect around ethanol and other biofuels.

It turns out that the impact of producing and using biofuels causes twice as many greenhouse gas emissions as petroleum-based fuels, according to two new studies published in the top-tier journal Science. (The Science studies aren’t up yet, but here’s the New York Times’ version of the story, and here’s the Washington Post’s.)"

"Current ethanol demands are already pushing up grain and meat prices and contributing to inflation. The tradeoff was that we were saving the world. Now that bargain looks pretty shaky."

http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/vindu/2008/02/08/ethanol-blues-biofuels-increase-global-warming-more-than-oil/

[CCWS77]

So ethanol is an overhyped product that cant match its proponets claims yet somehow has the public and media backing? (for now) Somehow it seems apropriate it is the official IRL fuel.

[Ruben Barrios]

"That attitude is exactly why America is loosing it's status in the WORLD."

I thought America was losing because of cheap labor in China... But I guess we conquered China didn't we? Good thing CCWS continues to plan for "the invasion of Asia"...

[indycool]

Mike, there are countless scientific claims both pro and con ethanol. Brazil travels almost exclusively on it right now. Who knows whose scientific claims are right or wrong at this point? The point was that it was an innovation.

[mike15]

Mike, there are countless scientific claims both pro and con ethanol. Brazil travels almost exclusively on it right now. Who knows whose scientific claims are right or wrong at this point? The point was that it was an innovation.

The American fuel alternative should be
Hydrogen:

"Hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered cars are the best alternatives to polluting, gasoline-powered cars for several reasons: (1) the cars are completely emission-free, (2) the fuel cells have no moving parts, (3) hydrogen is renewable and abundant, (4) the cars are compatible with cold weather, (5) the fuel cells are compact and lightweight--not overly bulky or heavy, (6) the cars are about 3 times as efficient as gasoline-powered cars, (7) the cars will have incredible mile ranges, (8) the tanks will be refueled quickly, and (9) hydrogen is safe, has been tested rigorously for use in vehicles, and is being used in many vehicles already.

Now we need to show car manufacturers that we want hydrogen fuel cells in our cars. We can do this effectively by communicating with the manufacturers. At a car dealer of your preference, inquire about cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells. Ask if the car company makes them, and if so, learn about the car and find out if it can be ordered. If the dealer does not know about the cars, ask for an address of the car manufacturer and write them asking for literature regarding cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells. Buying these emission-free vehicles is the best way to reduce the pollution in the Spokane area without giving up our cars."
http://www.commutercars.com/h2/

[indycool]

May well be, but that's not the discussion point. The discussion point was innovation at Indy.

[994ever]

"Innovation at Indy"...sure, ethanol was that.

The difference, of course, is that ethanol is "innovation" for the sake of picking up a marketing buck. The other point--one that is apparently more debatable to some than it is to others--is that ethanol is not an innovation at all but a perpetuation of the same system that currently exists and allows the major players to whistle dixie about caring while still making record profits.

Beyond the "conflicting scientific evidence" is the observed reality that ethanol production takes food out of people's mouths in developing countries, replaces viable, appropriate crops with fuel crops, and further enhances the gap between rich and poor.

[mike15]

May well be, but that's not the discussion point. The discussion point was innovation at Indy.
OK than look at the products put on the track.

The IRL has a dated product that has never been accepted by the racing world. It's jus a race car to satisfy the I500.

The Champ Car DP01 and Atlantic products are both far superior to the ICS products.

The Champ Car products are breaking records but the ICS product just puts a race car on the track.

It's like comparing a Cadillac to a Yugo.

Apparently the OW community that want this merger will also accept the Yugo.

[nanders]

The American fuel alternative should be
Hydrogen:

"Hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered cars are the best alternatives to polluting, gasoline-powered cars for several reasons: (1) the cars are completely emission-free, (2) the fuel cells have no moving parts, (3) hydrogen is renewable and abundant, (4) the cars are compatible with cold weather, (5) the fuel cells are compact and lightweight--not overly bulky or heavy, (6) the cars are about 3 times as efficient as gasoline-powered cars, (7) the cars will have incredible mile ranges, (8) the tanks will be refueled quickly, and (9) hydrogen is safe, has been tested rigorously for use in vehicles, and is being used in many vehicles already.

Now we need to show car manufacturers that we want hydrogen fuel cells in our cars. We can do this effectively by communicating with the manufacturers. At a car dealer of your preference, inquire about cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells. Ask if the car company makes them, and if so, learn about the car and find out if it can be ordered. If the dealer does not know about the cars, ask for an address of the car manufacturer and write them asking for literature regarding cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells. Buying these emission-free vehicles is the best way to reduce the pollution in the Spokane area without giving up our cars."
http://www.commutercars.com/h2/

I know you guys are getting tired of me saying it .... Hydrogen Electric is the way to go. I think they only way to go. I love hearing that wastegate pop just as much as anyone else but logic overcomes desire on this one.

[nanders]

"Innovation at Indy"...sure, ethanol was that.

The difference, of course, is that ethanol is "innovation" for the sake of picking up a marketing buck. The other point--one that is apparently more debatable to some than it is to others--is that ethanol is not an innovation at all but a perpetuation of the same system that currently exists and allows the major players to whistle dixie about caring while still making record profits.

Beyond the "conflicting scientific evidence" is the observed reality that ethanol production takes food out of people's mouths in developing countries, replaces viable, appropriate crops with fuel crops, and further enhances the gap between rich and poor.

and ethanol is only cutting edge if internal combustion engines are the future ... they ain't!

[nanders]

You have a clear picture.
Now that one series seems to be what is going to happen, the future needs to be addressed. HE seems, at this time, to be a more viable long term solution for a transportation energy source. The powers that be in Indy would be well advised to start, now, looking for ways to embrace and adapt the sport to the future. That is one way AOW could regain a leadership role in auto racing. It can't possibly happen over night, but they should be laying the foundation now.

He's thinking about it. http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=334

http://www.google.com/search?q=hydrogen+500&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US :o fficial&client=firefox-a

[nanders]

Hydrogen 500 -- Key Specifications

Mass -- 900kg (min.)
Construction -- Manufacturers' choice
Aerodynamics -- Allowed (not movable; cannot touch track surface)
Suspension, Steering, Brakes, Controls -- Manufacturers’ choice
Power -- 300kw/400hp (min.)
Battery type -- Manufacturers’ choice
On-board hydrogen (compressed; 10,000psi) -- 8 kg (max.)
Tires -- One size package for oval tracks; one size for road courses

Fuel -- One manufacturer; to specification (from renewable resources)
Projected lap speed (at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway) -- 185mph+

Now this is innovation :)

Don't be surprised if "the powers that be" are already trying to buy this sanctioning body :)

Linky:
http://www.hydrogenforecast.com/ArticleDetails.php?articleID=347

Indycool will be catching up pretty quick ... *chuckle*

[indycool]

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who know more about HE than I do. Again, my only mention of it was in response to innovations at Indy. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread to that subject. I know very little about it.

But Starter asked me to be a good boy around Mike15 and sanguin, so I won't even start dissecting his post that appears to be just a bait for a big fight with no IMOs in it.

[nanders]

Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of people on this board who know more about HE than I do. Again, my only mention of it was in response to innovations at Indy. I wasn't trying to hijack the thread to that subject. I know very little about it.

But Starter asked me to be a good boy around Mike15 and sanguin, so I won't even start dissecting his post that appears to be just a bait for a big fight with no IMOs in it.

Hey buddy ... I'm not trying to fight ... that's why I smiled.

BTW where is sanguin?

[indycool]

Oh, I know that, nanders....I just wanted to make my intent known about bringing it up....like I said, there are people here who know far more about this scientifically than I do. :) Funny story to tell from back in the '70s when we had an oil crisis, though. I wound up talking to Andy Granatelli. Er, that's wrong. When you're in company with Granatelli, you're LISTENING, not TALKING. And I remember then that he made the statement if they'd have let his turbine run, cars could be made to run on distilled corn cobs and potato peels and perfume leftovers, whatever you want and there'd BE no oil crisis. That was 30 years ago.

[heelntoe]

Hey buddy ... I'm not trying to fight ... that's why I smiled.

BTW where is sanguin?

I've been reprimanded too, but my guess would be a "sabbatical" from a difficult job, IMO :)

[Cart750hp]

Hey buddy ... I'm not trying to fight ... that's why I smiled.

BTW where is sanguin?

Expect a new sanguin part 2...under a different new screen name.

[SoCalPVguy]

Expect a new sanguin part 2...under a different new screen name.

I though that was "Jacques" *LOL* Tongue in cheek

[tbyars]

I think sanguin has a tummy ache!

Seriously, he hasn't been around since Eagly Eye has been pressing him for who he is talking to for his information.

[garyshell]

The IRL has a dated product that has never been accepted by the racing world. It's jus a race car to satisfy the I500.
The Champ Car DP01 and Atlantic products are both far superior to the ICS products.


To quote Ronald RayGuns, there you go again.

Repeat after me mike15, the product is racing, the product is racing, the product is racing.

Gary

[jimispeed]

For the three of you above, that is neither good sportsmanship or good manners.


They pick on this guy all of the time..

Why don't you stop them?!

[garyshell]

They pick on this guy all of the time..

Why don't you stop them?!


Come on jimi, what do you expect? The guy runs around here with a "kick me" sign on his back all the time. I'm all about mendin' fences here, but it is a two way street.

Gary

[jimispeed]

Come on jimi, what do you expect? The guy runs around here with a "kick me" sign on his back all the time. I'm all about mendin' fences here, but it is a two way street.

Gary


Good point. I guess if you just say something and don't back it up, especially when things are as tense as they are right now, you're gonna be called on it!!

[mike15]

To quote Ronald RayGuns, there you go again.

Repeat after me mike15, the product is racing, the product is racing, the product is racing.

Gary
Well for you low tech kind of guys, but for AOWR fans, it was all about high tech and the sound of turbo charged engines and the sound of " THAT IS A NEW TRACK RECORD".

AOWR was all about what was racing on the track. That is why first day qualifying for the I500 was so popular and why no one cares anymore.

The biggest chasm between the two series is Champ Car is still a three day event while the IRL including Indy became a single day event.

With the current direction of the rumored merger they should change the rules and qualify and race on the same day.

[indycool]

Mike, yes, the fans at Indy want to hear "IT'S A NEW TRACK RECORD." But, since the '70s, it's been a case of trying to slow the cars down for safety and technology brings them back up to speed and the cycle repeats itself. I don't think we're gonna see Luyendyk's 238 for a LONG time again, if ever.

If "AOWR" is too important for us "low-tech guys" to bother with, then why are you hear to bother a bunch of lowly race fans who mistakenly think the product is racing, to quote Gary? Why don't you high-tech guys just stay at the test track or the dyno, no need to race? Do you honestly feel that a grandstand at either a CC or IRL race is full of engineers from Purdue or something?

Sheesh. And by the way, Indy is 16 days of track activity, not one.

[mike15]

Mike, yes, the fans at Indy want to hear "IT'S A NEW TRACK RECORD." But, since the '70s, it's been a case of trying to slow the cars down for safety and technology brings them back up to speed and the cycle repeats itself. I don't think we're gonna see Luyendyk's 238 for a LONG time again, if ever.

If "AOWR" is too important for us "
Sheesh. And by the way, Indy is 16 days of track activity, not one.

Well lets be clear the track is open for 16 days and the fans interest is for one day.

Well for you low tech kind of guys, but for AOWR fans, it was all about high tech and the sound of turbo charged engines and the sound of " THAT IS A NEW TRACK RECORD".

And how Hi-Tech is a Panoz DP01?

There are no High-Tech Turbo engines racing nowadays except the HDi versions used by Audi & Peugeot at Le Mans.

F1 cars haven't broken a lap record in years. 2002 was the last time an F1 car set a new record at Monza, but it doesn't put the Tifosi off.

And, since you reckon that it would be ok only for 'low tech' guys, a question....

What are your qualifications?

If they aren't the equivalent of an Aerodynamics & Engineering Masters degree from Oxford, then your 'low-tech' opinion of your fellow posters is wide of the mark.

[tbyars]

Well for you low tech kind of guys, but for AOWR fans, it was all about high tech and the sound of turbo charged engines and the sound of " THAT IS A NEW TRACK RECORD".

Wait just a danged minute!

Mike, that is a totally BS comment.

You, sir, wouldn't know high tech if it kicked you in the ****. This is exactly the kind of elitism that bankrupt CART and put CCWS virtually out of business.

It is a myth that CCWS cars are any more high tech than IRL cars, a myth propogated by your buddies at CCF. And you have bought that hook, line and sinker. Turbos aren't any more high tech than a NA engine, just different.

You want new track records. Fine. I call you callous and unfeeling, because for you hearing those words are more important than the safety of the drivers. You would sacrifice the safety of the drivers just to go a little bit faster for a vicarious thrill. I won't.

Frankly, I think you have your priorities WAY out of whack and I, for one, don't want any part of your "gladiator" view of motorsports.

And, by the way, whether you want to recognize the fact or not, "AOWR fans" INCLUDES fans of the IRL, the IPS, sprint cars, midgets, etc. It's NOT exclusive to fans of the nearly defunked CCWS. Again, that is nothing but elitism on your part. Just more of the "I'm the ONLY ONE who counts" view of the world.

[indycool]

It is open to spectators for 16 days and they come in varying numbers all 16 of those days. Carb Day, since moving from Thursday to Friday, has become exceptionally well-attended. If it rains, spectators or potential spectators leave or are not there because cars won't be running, which is something I believe you can grasp.

[Chris R]

the technology issue was a very relevant comparison between CART and the IRL in 1996-2000 - but the latest Dallaras are no more or less advanced than the Panoz. Same goes for the motors - the best of the CART engines were more high tech than either series at the moment...

Turbos are just one way of doing things - would you argue that a F-1 V-8 which is NA is less technologically advanced than a Champcar Cosworth?

I think both OWRS and the IRL need to take a step up the technology ladder - but right now it is hard to justify any point of view that puts one or the other at a technological advantage.... Yes, I prefer the OWRS package - but not because it is fundamentally better.....

Once we are back to one series I hope that the formula will become more interesting again because lets face it - both OWRS and IRL are plain jane spec series right now....

[nanders]

Well lets be clear the track is open for 16 days and the fans interest is for one day.

"one day" 16 days if they go Hydrogen Electric :p

[nanders]

And how Hi-Tech is a Panoz DP01?

DP01 = 1989 Ferrari F1 car. Maybe even lower tech than that.




F1 cars haven't broken a lap record in years. 2002 was the last time an F1 car set a new record at Monza, but it doesn't put the Tifosi off.

the Tifosi have been conditioned to a somewhat less exciting form of racing.

but I don't care about lap records either but I would love to see engineering mean something in racing again. But I don't think it will ever happen again with the Internal Combustion Engine.

[mike15]

It is open to spectators for 16 days and they come in varying numbers all 16 of those days. Carb Day, since moving from Thursday to Friday, has become exceptionally well-attended. If it rains, spectators or potential spectators leave or are not there because cars won't be running, which is something I believe you can grasp.

There was a day when first day qualifying attracted attendance over 100,000 on it's own merits.

Today IMS has had to add interest by throwing in other activities. Yep there are a few fans that show up the key word is few, like less than 100.

[cartpix]

There was a day when first day qualifying attracted attendance over 100,000 on it's own merits.

Today IMS has had to add interest by throwing in other activities. Yep there are a few fans that show up the key word is few, like less than 100.

Friday at Long Beach is a ghost town & most of those tickets are give aways. And before you say it's because it's a Friday, I have always taken that Friday off, to attend & I had paid for grandstand tickets. Friday used to have about twice the people it has now.

Jeff

[indycool]

Yes, IMS has increased activities during the month. No, I haven't seen less than 100 even just standing around the gift shop anytime during May IN the rain. Your exagerrations and/or lack of knowledge depletes the veracity of your arguments.

[Ruben Barrios]

"There are no High-Tech Turbo engines racing nowadays except the HDi versions used by Audi & Peugeot at Le Mans.

F1 cars haven't broken a lap record in years."

Acctually F1 engines are the most high tech engines, and they are normally aspirated... Just thinking of 17,000 plus rpms.... can't get any more high tech than that...