Rule Changes announced

[Jonesi]

1) ... those outside the top 35 in all three series
-- Sprint Cup, Nationwide Series and Craftsman Truck Series --
will qualify at the end of their respective session ...
2) ... teams will be provided tires for testing at non-sanctioned NASCAR tests ...
3) ... crews will be limited to three pit box lengths to push cars off of pit road ...
4) ... Outside tires removed can no longer be free rolled to the pit box wall ...
5) ... NASCAR will donate all driver fines to the NASCAR foundation as a part of the sport's charitable initiative ...

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=2&id=3206999

[JovialJooles]

1) ... those outside the top 35 in all three series
-- Sprint Cup, Nationwide Series and Craftsman Truck Series --
will qualify at the end of their respective session ...

Just scrap the top 35 lock-in. That would make it fairer and more exciting.


2) ... teams will be provided tires for testing at non-sanctioned NASCAR tests ...

Hmmm, not sure if this will make any difference. Haven't Hendrick already said they won't use non goodyear tyres anymore...?


3) ... crews will be limited to three pit box lengths to push cars off of pit road ...

I must admit I don't understand this. Why does this need to be stated?


4) ... Outside tires removed can no longer be free rolled to the pit box wall ...
That should make it interesting...


5) ... NASCAR will donate all driver fines to the NASCAR foundation as a part of the sport's charitable initiative ...

I thought they already did this?

[Lee Roy]

I must admit I don't understand this. Why does this need to be stated?

Because under the former rules, a crew could push a car all the way down pit road to try to "push-start" the engine. Kinda dangerous.


I thought they already did this?

Fines used to be put into the end-of-the-year points fund and paid back to the drivers.

[Jonesi]

Because under the former rules, a crew could push a car all the way down pit road to try to "push-start" the engine. Kinda dangerous.


Yes. I think changes 3 & 4 came from the insurance companys risk management dept.

Change #2 is from is from Goodyear complaint over losing about $5mil in business with the no tires to test with rule.

[RaceFanStan]

1) ... those outside the top 35 in all three series
-- Sprint Cup, Nationwide Series and Craftsman Truck Series --
will qualify at the end of their respective session ...
The original rumor was that the non-top 35 would qualify 1st.
But leave it to the buttheads @ NASCAR to make the non-top 35 wait until the last to go. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/rolleyes.gif
It is just another penalty for those unfortunate enough not to be in the top 35. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/s.gif

[RaceFanStan]

2) ... teams will be provided tires for testing at non-sanctioned NASCAR tests ...
I think this is a good thing. http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/smilies/roll_eyes.gif
For it to be an effective test, the cars do need to be on the same type tires they will race with.
It also had to make Goodyear happy to be gaining the $$$$$$. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/s.gif


http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/sponsor/gtc.jpg

[RaceFanStan]

3) ... crews will be limited to three pit box lengths to push cars off of pit road ...
In this case I wouldn't bother pushing the car, the distance is too short to be effective. :s

[RaceFanStan]

4) ... Outside tires removed can no longer be free rolled to the pit box wall ...
Carrying the tires back to the wall will slow the pitstops dramatically. :s

You can expect some teams to NOT change outside tires during a green flag stop,
that could prove to be more unsafe than rolling the tires back to the wall. :eek:

[RaceFanStan]

5) ... NASCAR will donate all driver fines to the NASCAR foundation ...
This should have been done a long time ago.
IMO a fine isn't really a penalty if the drivers get the money back. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[dwboogityfan]

I am pleased to see that NASCAR has grouped the cars outside the top 35 together at the end of the session. At least it puts those cars with an equal chance.
However, when will NASCAR realise that seemingly few fans actually want the top 35 rule. I agree with the fact that those teams that race every week need to be given a better chance than those that only race occasionally but why not use the old provisionals rule.
My rules on qualifying for races would be:-
Top 38 cars on speed make the race regardless of points position.
Provisionals will be awarded based on Owner Points to the highest five in the standings. Each team will be given 6 provisionals per season but will not be charged if they are in the Top 12 (Chase positions).
The Past Champions provisional will be given on a maximum of two occasions per driver - as a 44th car in the field.

In my opinion these rules would give the 'smaller' teams more of a chance and would also make qualifying a required skill again for all teams. Also the Gatorade Duel races would once again become must see TV.

[Lee Roy]

However, when will NASCAR realise that seemingly few fans actually want the top 35 rule.

But would the fans be happy if we go back to barely having 43 cars to attempt to make the field for many races, and a number of those being "start and park" entries? That's what we had prior to the "top 35" rule.

And if the trend were to have continued, we wouldn't have 43 cars starting now. (Of course, that's just my humble opinion.)

[JovialJooles]

But would the fans be happy if we go back to barely having 43 cars to attempt to make the field for many races, and a number of those being "start and park" entries? That's what we had prior to the "top 35" rule.

And if the trend were to have continued, we wouldn't have 43 cars starting now. (Of course, that's just my humble opinion.)

Yes but, no but...

What you now have is teams outside the top 35 struggling to find sponsors because they are all migrating to the top 35 teams. Long term it is not going to help Nascar at all... Go the way they are going and you won't have 43 cars in a while due to lack of sponsorship.

If I was a sponsor looking to invest in a non top 35 team, what I would want to see is an equal opportunity to make the race. If I am told that there are lots of cars chasing a few places, I would tend to go where I am going to get guaranteed exposure - the top 35...

From a fans point of view, the top 35 lock in is just plain boring...

[Lee Roy]

Yes but, no but...
... Go the way they are going and you won't have 43 cars in a while due to lack of sponsorship.


Actually, history proves your point wrong. Before the "top 35" rule, Cup was barely getting 43 cars for some races, and only 2 or 3 extra at others. After the "top 35" rule was instituted the car count began to rise dramatically.

I have the statistics and the link at home. I'll provide them this evening.

I won't argue the point that many fans don't like the rule, I'm not particularly fond of it, but you can't argue the results. They are what they are.

[JovialJooles]

I think given the current economic climate the non 35 will struggle for sponsorship this year.

The history of the top 35 is 3 yrs, hardly much time at all.

Plus, those three years saw economic prosperity, something you aint going to see for a while.

However, the writing is on the wall, look at what happened to sponsorship last year and teams merging. Look at top teams bringing in major backers - Fenway, Gillet...

The current top 35 system is non sustainable for those outside the 35.

As for Sprint... What is the betting it will be the NASCAR AT&T Cup next year. With a certain Mr Childress having a wry smile...

Long Term stability? Nextel/Sprint/...

[Lee Roy]

I think given the current economic climate the non 35 will struggle for sponsorship this year.

The history of the top 35 is 3 yrs, hardly much time at all.

Plus, those three years saw economic prosperity, something you aint going to see for a while.

However, the writing is on the wall, look at what happened to sponsorship last year and teams merging. Look at top teams bringing in major backers - Fenway, Gillet...

The current top 35 system is non sustainable for those outside the 35.

As for Sprint... What is the betting it will be the NASCAR AT&T Cup next year. With a certain Mr Childress having a wry smile...

Long Term stability? Nextel/Sprint/...

You can attribute it to economic prosperity, global warming, sun spots or whatever you want to, the cold hard facts are that the declining car count was reversed and dramatically increased as soon as the "top 35" rule was instituted. And it continued to increase even as the attendance and television ratings for Cup races declined over the past couple of years.

You continue to worry about the cars outside of the top 35, but it was the cars at the bottom 25-35 were suddenly assured of stability. This, in my opinion, is what turned the car-count around. These teams were able to secure sponsorship because they could assure sponsors that they had a good chance of making the show.

As I said, I'll post the facts and the source tonight.

[JovialJooles]

Fair point Lee Roy.

I suppose time will tell. I hope I'm wrong...

[RaceFanStan]

... The current top 35 system is non sustainable for those outside the 35 ...
The reason that the teams are outside the top 35 is they aren't up to speed & are uncompetitive.
IF the teams had enough speed in qualifying it wouldn't matter if they were top 35 or not. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[JovialJooles]

Hmm. I think I am lumping all of NASCAR's stupid rules together.

There is the issue with the top 35 and also that of provisionals...

Perhaps some of the teams are out of the top 35 because they cannot secure enough sponsorship. Without sponsorship, they cannot develop their cars and are thus 'slow ass teams'.

What comes first if you are a new team? uncompetitive car or no sponsorship.

There were a couple of occasions last year where drivers qualified their cars on time but still had to go home because of being bumped by provisionals. Therefore, by the end of the season they were out of the top 35 on points.

In NASCAR it does not follow that the most competitive drivers for the race ie qualifying on time alone, appear on the grid come Sunday. Crazy...

[Jonesi]

I don't think the larger car count can be attributed to either the "Top 35' rule or the economy. For years the full time team count was in the 38-42 car range, (and either top 35 or old provisional system worked to some extent). In '07 the car count jumped plus 7 to 49, solely because of Toyota money. During the year it dropped to 47 with the Ginn implosion and heading into the start of '08 it looks like there will be 46 full time cars. Long term in a race series that starts only 43 cars, it can only sustain 43-45 cars, no matter what the qualifing system you use. Eventually the sponsor money dries up and cars pull out.

Right now I read 7 un/under sponsored cars, 5 of them (01, 40, 28, 38 & 70) start the year in the Top 35, only 2 (00, 27) are outside top 35. Being top 35 doesn't assure you will find sponsorship.

[JovialJooles]

Well, looks like my theory has been well and truly blown out of the water. :) :beer:

[Jonesi]

This should have been done a long time ago. IMO a fine isn't really a penalty if the drivers get the money back. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

Tell that to the crew chief(or driver) who had to write a check for $100,000 fine, that his team will get about $3,000 back at the end of the year and he'll see about $500 back (before paying taxes on it again.) So it really wasn't much of a penalty. ;-)

[Lee Roy]

NASCAR isn't the only racing entity to protect it's competitors. In Formula One, the only people who are allowed to compete are the members of the "club". No one needs to worry about missing the field.

Also, the 24 Hours of Le Mans is by invitation only. If you got an invitation, you're in. If you didn't, don't bother to show up.

Even the NHRA has finally gone to a "provisional" type of system.

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/dragracing/42606/

[Jonesi]

Well, looks like my theory has been well and truly blown out of the water. :) :beer:

For the short term yes, in the long term you may be right.

On sponsor migration this year:
1. Budweiser goes from 16th team to 19th on paper, but what really happened is they couldn't stick with the most popular driver due to existing Hendrick deals so they went to the 5th most popular driver who just had a bad year.
2. Best Buy moves from 31st team to 27th team. Scott Riggs at Haas or Elliott Sadler at Evernham, which has better potential?
3. State Water Heaters from MorganMcClure out of top 35 in 45th to Haas in 31st. Probably evidence of sponsor migration.
4. Coors Light? Out of the 26th place car #40 to where? Nascar for sure. Rumors they may end up on #01 in 17th.

I think the big picture is what happens with those $75-$100mil car company commitments.
If Dodge gets out they will lose about 5-6 full time teams.
If Honda comes in we'll see about half a dozen new teams.
Most likely, if Honda comes in, Dodge gets out and things stay about the same.

[RaceFanStan]

... What comes first if you are a new team? uncompetitive car or no sponsorship ...
In 2007, most of the non-top 35 teams had full season sponsorship ...
36th ~ #21 Ford ~ Wood Brothers Racing ~ Little Debbie / Motorcraft / AIr Force (missed 2 races)
37th ~ #10 Dodge ~ Evernham MotorSports ~ Valvoline / Stanley Tools (missed 6 races)
38th ~ #83 Toyota ~ Red Bull Racing ~ Red Bull Energy Drink (missed 13 races)
39th ~ #00 Toyota ~ Michael Waltrip Racing ~ Burger King / Domino's Pizza (missed 7 races)
40th ~ #44 Toyota ~ Michael Waltrip Racing ~ UPS (missed 12 races)
41st ~ #55 Toyota ~ Michael Waltrip Racing ~ NAPA (missed 19 races)
42nd ~ #78 Chevrolet ~ Visser Racing ~ Furniture Row (missed 17 races)
43rd ~ #84 Toyota ~ Red Bull Racing ~ Red Bull (missed 18 races)
44th ~ #36 Toyota ~ Bill Davis Racing ~ 360 OTC (missed 18 races)
45th ~ #4 Chevrolet ~ McClure-McClure Racing ~ State Water Heaters (missed 17 races)
46th ~ #49 Dodge ~ BAM Racing ~ PVA.org / Lifelock (missed 18 races)

sponsorship didn't keep most of the teams from attempting to qualify for the races ...
it was the lack of speed when they needed it most that sent them home ...
they had to be 1 of the 7 fastest drivers on qualifying day & sometimes they failed. http://www.motorsportforum.com/forums/images/icons/tongue-anim.gif

[Lee Roy]

Okay boys and girls, here are the statistics that I promised.

Average entries for "Cup" races by season (least number of entries):


Before the "35 Rule" was instituted:

2003 - 45.9 average entries. (3 races w/43 entries, 4 w/44 entries)
2004 - 47.9 average entries. (1 race w/43 entries, 6 w/44 entries)

After the "35 Rule" was instituted:

2005 - 48.6 average entries. (2 races w/45 entries, 4 w/46)
2006 - 49.2 average entries. (6 races w/47 entries, 12 w/48)
2007 - 49.7 average entries. (1 race w/46 entries, 3 w/47, 5 w/48)

Reference:
http://racing-reference.info/

As you can see, the "35 rule" has resulted in an increased number of average entries each season that it has been in place. The most telling statistic (to me any way) is the number of times before the institution of this rule that there were only 43 or 44 entries for individgual races.

Is the increase in the average number of entries due to the "35 rule"? Hey, that's anybody's guess.

Did the "35 rule" result in a lower number on entries? No it hasn't. As a matter of fact, the number of average entries has gone up each year that it has been in effect. Case Closed.

[Alexamateo]

I don't think the larger car count can be attributed to either the "Top 35' rule or the economy. For years the full time team count was in the 38-42 car range, (and either top 35 or old provisional system worked to some extent). In '07 the car count jumped plus 7 to 49, solely because of Toyota money. During the year it dropped to 47 with the Ginn implosion and heading into the start of '08 it looks like there will be 46 full time cars. Long term in a race series that starts only 43 cars, it can only sustain 43-45 cars, no matter what the qualifing system you use. Eventually the sponsor money dries up and cars pull out.

Right now I read 7 un/under sponsored cars, 5 of them (01, 40, 28, 38 & 70) start the year in the Top 35, only 2 (00, 27) are outside top 35. Being top 35 doesn't assure you will find sponsorship.

Excellent Analysis Jonesi! :) :up:

[dwboogityfan]

I would add the 49, 21, possibly the 10 and 34 to the full-time teams looking for sponsors. It is interesting of the teams noted without full-time sponsors that most will likely struggle to stay in the top 35 if as expected Toyota make a big leap forward.
Also the Red Bull cars and the #78 are sponsored by their own companies so in reality only the #55 and #44 have been able to attract sponsors while being outside the top 35.
A lack of money may not have stopped these teams trying to race but being out of the top 35 has prevented them making a number of races they deserved to make on speed, therefore limiting the opportunities to showcase themselves to either current or potential sponsors.
IMO if NASCAR insists on having the top 35 we will end up with fewer teams. Also NASCAR shouldn't allow teams to buy their way into the top 35 (i.e. like Menard last season - he didn't earn the points the #14 Ginn/Sterling Marlin combination worked hard to earn so why should he deserve to race more than the guys above him outside the top 35?) or manipulate the system like Penske this season with Hornish. Penske hasn't done anything wrong but how can that be fair?
Unlike F1, NBA or NFL NASCAR does not have franchises. It would appear the sport is going that way though - to the detriment of the dreamers who help to make our sport great. The underdogs getting an equal chance is what part of what made the sport so great. Lets not lose that just to keep the big teams happy.

[Lee Roy]

Also NASCAR shouldn't allow teams to buy their way into the top 35 (i.e. like Menard last season - he didn't earn the points the #14 Ginn/Sterling Marlin combination worked hard to earn so why should he deserve to race more than the guys above him outside the top 35?) or manipulate the system like Penske this season with Hornish. Penske hasn't done anything wrong but how can that be fair?

Unlike F1, NBA or NFL NASCAR does not have franchises. It would appear the sport is going that way though - to the detriment of the dreamers who help to make our sport great. The underdogs getting an equal chance is what part of what made the sport so great. Lets not lose that just to keep the big teams happy.

Of course on the other hand, NASCAR has oft been criticized for not supporting the teams that made the sport what it is today; many times for not having some kind of a franchise system to reward teams for their hard work over the year.

[call_me_andrew]

4) ... Outside tires removed can no longer be free rolled to the pit box wall ...

This could use a definition of "free roll". Is it all rolling that's banned or just rolling without one hand on the tire? Does the tire even have to go all the way back to the wall before the car leaves, or just to the left (or right at Watkins Glen) side of the car?