Cotman to the IRL

[nanders]

Autoracing1.com is rumoring:

Cotman to the IRL - According to a report on SPEEDTV's Speed Report Sunday night, Champ Car's VP of operations Tony Cotman, who announced his resignation from Champ Car last week, may be headed to the rival Indy Car organization to first run their Indy Pro Series and then move up to the Indy Car Series. If true, this becomes a double blow to Champ Car - they not only lose Cotman, their rival gets him.

[Chris R]

that seems unlikely if he agreed to stay on for a transition....... unless..... hmmmm.... (did I just start a new unification rumor?? :p ) :D

[BobGarage]

he came to us from the irl, albeit a team not the series itself.

it is not unusal for personel, crew and even drivers to switch between CC and the IRL. There is no hatred or animosity between the two groups. the only animosity is between the leaders of the two series and the fans of the two series. to everyone else... its just a job.

[sanguin]

found this on another forum-


Originally Posted by Jim Swintal's Blog

Very difficult and disappointing to accept in light of my last blog entry, but I got a call from Tony Cotman on Thursday telling me he was resigning his position as Race Director and Executive VP Operations at Champ Car.

I received this email from Steve Johnson, our President and CEO the next day:

To All Champ Car Stakeholders,
From: Steve Johnson

Re: Tony Cotman

I’m disappointed to inform you that Executive VP & Race Director Tony Cotman will be leaving Champ Car. He just informed me, the Board and Senior Management that he would not be with us this season, noting that soon after he returned from the winter break, after much introspection, he decided that it was time for him to move on to something new.

Certainly, we will miss Tony, as he has been a stellar Race Director and an important member of our management team. He has agreed to remain in his position for the time being to work on the transition and help us identify a replacement who will carry on the tradition of Champ Car racing that puts driver safety and fan entertainment first.

Tony has played a big role in enhancing our racing program, including helping us to successfully launch a new car in both the Champ Car World Series and Champ Car Atlantic Championship after he joined Champ Car in 2005. It’s clear to our sponsors and fans that Champ Car always puts racing first, as that’s the essence of our series and something that we certainly will maintain this season and beyond.

Tony truly has been a committed and passionate member of the Champ Car community for the past three seasons. No “goodbyes” just yet, however, as Tony will continue to work with us for the foreseeable future, but we wanted to let you know as soon as possible. We also will let you know soon who will be stepping in as Race Director to maintain our unique version of Grand Prix open-wheel racing, and how we will handle his management responsibilities.




Tony related to me some of his his reasons, which are personal and private, and what Steve says above is certainly very accurate. Tony was also very adamant to tell me that based on what he knows (which is a hell of a lot more than you or I) and because of the strength of the product on the race track and the commitment of our owners, the Champ Car World Series will continue. Amen, and plenty of hard work ahead for all of us.


Paul "Ziggy" Harcus, TC's right hand man and fellow Kiwi will continue to carry the ball for us in our operations department. Ziggy knows all of the practices and procedures Tony has set up as they have worked very closely over the past three seasons. Alas, we no longer have an experienced Race Director in RC, as Beaux Barfield was succeeded a few weeks ago by Johnny Unser as our Atlantic Race Director for 2008. As stated in Steve's email, Tony and our owners are working on a replacement...

[Chaparral66]

Apparently, only Tony Cotman knows how long that "time" will be. If an IRL offer is there for him, he'll go when he thinks the time is right for him, and then CC will have to fend for itself.

[nanders]

"To All Champ Car Stakeholders"

I want to know what "Champ Car Stakeholders" are?

[Dr. Krogshöj]

"To All Champ Car Stakeholders"

I want to know what "Champ Car Stakeholders" are?

IMHO Champ Car stakeholders are the series owners, managers, staff, team owners, crews and drivers, sponsors, suppliers, the media and last but not least, the fans. Wonder how many of them got the message from Mr Johnson.

[seppefan]

found this on another forum-

Thanks - seems a sensible letter and shows an amicable split. What forum was it on as AR1 do not hqave it. Please let us know. Thanks

[Cart750hp]

If Tony Cotman returns to the IRL....wouldn't CC take John Lopes back from the IRL? Pretty much, that was the trade.


What's up with the people, drivers, and teams leaving CC so much anyway? There are more people left CC to IRL than IRL to CC.

[millencolin]

to everyone else... its just a job.

well said... good luck to him

[Knocker69]

Thanks - seems a sensible letter and shows an amicable split. What forum was it on as AR1 do not hqave it. Please let us know. Thanks

Jim Swintal's Blog (http://ccwsclerk.blogspot.com/2008/01/tonywe-hardly-knew-ye.html)

[seppefan]

Rumour is that KK is trying to keep TC on the side and has till 1.2.8 to get it together. Rumour only and I have no link.

[mike15]

Rumour is that KK is trying to keep TC on the side and has till 1.2.8 to get it together. Rumour only and I have no link.

It was on the speed report.

[Chaparral66]

Yeah? Well, forget it. Robin Miller just reported on SPEEDtv.com that Cotman will be named Vice President of Competition of the IRL and will work closely with Brian Barnhart on raceday calling the races. Tony Cotman will have his hand in just everything from tracks to tech isssues to race control. Miller made mention of the $%&#fit that Gentillozzi and Forsythe had over Cotman's race calls early in his run and how they wanted to boot him because of that. That's a real sandbox mentality, if you don't enforce the rules for my team like I want you to, I want you outta here! Thanks, GF and PG, good going. Didn't have that puppet you thought you did, didja?

And another one bites the dust...

[Cart750hp]

Yeah? Well, forget it. Robin Miller just reported on SPEEDtv.com that Cotman will be named Vice President of Competition of the IRL and will work closely with Brian Barnhart on raceday calling the races. Tony Cotman will have his hand in just everything from tracks to tech isssues to race control. Miller made mention of the $%&#fit that Gentillozzi and Forsythe had over Cotman's race calls early in his run and how they wanted to boot him because of that. That's a real sandbox mentality, if you don't enforce the rules for my team like I want you to, I want you outta here! Thanks, GF and PG, good going. Didn't have that puppet you thought you did, didja?

And another one bites the dust...

Exactly. Tony was probably buying his time before he gets the right one. It was last year when GF wanted TC out as RD.

Is there a Tony Cotman fan club? If there's someone who can tell you about how pathetic both series are....it's Tony Cotman. This guy needs to write a book and would like to know how bad CC management before CC change ownership.

[Chaparral66]

Exactly. Tony was probably buying his time before he gets the right one. It was last year when GF wanted TC out as RD.

Is there a Tony Cotman fan club? If there's someone who can tell you about how pathetic both series are....it's Tony Cotman. This guy needs to write a book and would like to know how bad CC management before CC change ownership.

Cart750, I think you're right. I'm sure when the dust settles, he'll have several publishers vying for his take on the whole mess. His word will the one to take very seriously.

[seppefan]

Miller made mention of the $%&#fit that Gentillozzi and Forsythe had over Cotman's race calls early in his run and how they wanted to boot him because of that. That's a real sandbox mentality, if you don't enforce the rules for my team like I want you to, I want you outta here! Thanks, GF and PG, good going. Didn't have that puppet you thought you did, didja?

And another one bites the dust...

Well said. KK must be so hacked with these guys. I read that Cotman wanted 10 things, one being control over the unification measures and as usual GF said no. I am not sure what asset GF thinks he has but he is living in cloud cookoo land.

[SoTex]

From SpeedTV:

“It should be a little easier in the IRL, because in Champ Car a third of the field was the series owner’s cars.”

He chuckled at that last statement because it was well known that series co-owners Gerry Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi wanted Cotman removed as chief steward after his first season because they were mad at some of his calls.


http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/42854/

[nanders]

From SpeedTV:

“It should be a little easier in the IRL, because in Champ Car a third of the field was the series owner’s cars.”

He chuckled at that last statement because it was well known that series co-owners Gerry Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi wanted Cotman removed as chief steward after his first season because they were mad at some of his calls.


http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/42854/

I appreciate everything Gerry Forsythe has done for supporting a series that I have truely loved and enjoyed. I know he's blown a boat load of dough. It's a good thing he is wealthy. But it appears now that he may be the biggest impediment to AOWR recovery.

[Sandfly]

I appreciate everything Gerry Forsythe has done for supporting a series that I have truely loved and enjoyed. I know he's blown a boat load of dough. It's a good thing he is wealthy. But it appears now that he may be the biggest impediment to AOWR recovery.

Why??? Because he doesn't want to waste his money going in circles in an Iowa cornfield. The guy has more understanding of auto racing than TG will ever have. You want Forsythe to give his stuff to the management of Tony George? There is one impediment to OW recovery and that is Tony George. Everyone agrees -- but many are saying "well - enough is enough, lets give the bully what he wants so we can all be nice."

Gimme a break.

[Chaparral66]

Why??? Because he doesn't want to waste his money going in circles in an Iowa cornfield. The guy has more understanding of auto racing than TG will ever have. You want Forsythe to give his stuff to the management of Tony George? There is one impediment to OW recovery and that is Tony George. Everyone agrees -- but many are saying "well - enough is enough, lets give the bully what he wants so we can all be nice."

Gimme a break.

Take it easy, Sandfly. KK doesn't want to hand over the open wheel keys to TG any more than the other Amigos do. But he's more willing to work out a comprehensive deal. But NOT to give him control.

[Sandfly]

My point is that GF is not the problem, any more than KK is. The problem is TG.

Why not do the two division concept. Two series meeting for major wvwnts. Improves car counts and makes sponsor value for both series.

The problem is that TG wants to run the whole thing - use his cars, his engines, and his tracks ,,, with a coupla CC thrown in.

I just hate to see folks pretend that that is a reasonable proposal and theat the CC folks somehow should give in to that Bullying.

[nanders]

My point is that GF is not the problem, any more than KK is. The problem is TG.

Why not do the two division concept. Two series meeting for major wvwnts. Improves car counts and makes sponsor value for both series.

The problem is that TG wants to run the whole thing - use his cars, his engines, and his tracks ,,, with a coupla CC thrown in.

I just hate to see folks pretend that that is a reasonable proposal and theat the CC folks somehow should give in to that Bullying.

The reason why not is the teams are going to do whatever they want to do ... you know it's like hearding cats. A couple teams cross over to the other series and the other series will be dead. And you know the crossover won't be coming to CCWS.

However just to show you a little love on this deal. When I start my team I'll run the CCWS full time and just run Indy. But if Kalkhoven crosses over I'll be selling my car to the SuperLeague.

I think both series should go back to the old Lola.

[spiritone]

Why is it that everybody thinks that tony cotman is such hot stuff. The guy screwed up more on track decisions, spent most of his time ruling in favor of nhl. What made all of you think he was such a good administrator that he should be in charge of negotiating a merger with the irl.

If kk has made any mistakes, hiring this bozo in the first place, that was his biggest one. Good riddance.

[Albert D. Kallal]

Why is it that everybody thinks that tony cotman is such hot stuff. The guy screwed up more on track decisions, spent most of his time ruling in favor of nhl. What made all of you think he was such a good administrator that he should be in charge of negotiating a merger with the irl.

If kk has made any mistakes, hiring this bozo in the first place, that was his biggest one. Good riddance.

I actually tend to agree, that he actually made a lot of bad calls last year. In fact look the controversial standing starts, and several people who had jumped the start, and he did nothing.

The fact matter is Cotman was not a super hero here. I do respect him, but I was always leary and suspicious of his past ties to AGR racing (he worked for them in the past also). The fact that he’s jumping back to where he came from is not a surprise, or a huge deal.

In fact just yesterday champ car hired a new PR person. (Pat Caporali). She used to work for the IRL (Chip Ganansi), and also the Rolex series. She is now going to work for champ car. Fact is people move around between the leagues because that’s where the work is in racing, and if you have some experience it can be an asset.

It’s actually debatable whether champ car will miss Cotman or not. I think he did some great things, but I also think he made some really bad brain dead calls.

Just exactly what is Cotman to do when they have things like the Milka scandal, and a Woman with big boobs gets to drive because the league wants the PR ( it took an insane a number of races to get her off the track). And exactly what is Cotman to do who with these flying cars in the air? And if you look at some of the rolling starts the IRL had, it makes CCWS look like F1.

And when it comes May, how is Cotman going to say no to the slew of drivers (many Alcoholics) that in absolutely no way are fit to drive on that dangerous speedway? What then is Cotman to do? I can’t wait to see him try and reform and bring some rules to that mess called the IRL.

The recent news of Cotman asking for control of negotiation between the two leagues in merger talks is a WILD request that is so far above Cotman’s ability to as to not be funny. The fact the matter is the IRL’s recent offers to CCWS had nothing to with mergers (else, talk of Cosworth engine leases should come up). This was simply an attempt at poaching teams, and Cotman comes along and says he wants to be the middle man in this deal? You got to be absolutely kidding me!

If Cotman had any integrity he would have pointed out the offers made by the IRL is poaching, and is actually a criminal offense ( as far as I read the law right now, the way those offers were made its actually illegal).

You mean Cotman was to negotiate and represent champ car to the IRL? You all going to stand here and ignore his ties to AGR racing?. You mean Cotman was going to represent the engine leases and interests of Cosworth for the IRL to use ?

It is Absolute stunning to stand here and ignore these big issues, and simply state that Cotman was always in the best interest of champ car, and that is clearly not the case.

I’m not looking to stand here and trash the guy, but I won’t put Cotman up on a pedestal either.

The Historic issues of Cotman’s conflicts of interest with CCWS runs rather deep, and I understand well why the owners did not trust him on many instances, and his leaving now somewhat tends to support that point of view...don't it...

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[tbyars]

If Cotman had any integrity he would have pointed out the offers made by the IRL is poaching, and is actually a criminal offense ( as far as I read the law right now, the way those offers were made its actually illegal).

That's a pretty serious charge. I'd like to see some documentation on exactly why you feel any criminal laws were broken, please.

I think that is a more than reasonable request considering your claim.

[ChaimWitz]

I actually tend to agree, that he actually made a lot of bad calls last year. In fact look the controversial standing starts, and several people who had jumped the start, and he did nothing.

The fact matter is Cotman was not a super hero here. I do respect him, but I was always leary and suspicious of his past ties to AGR racing (he worked for them in the past also). The fact that he’s jumping back to where he came from is not a surprise, or a huge deal.

In fact just yesterday champ car hired a new PR person. (Pat Caporali). She used to work for the IRL (Chip Ganansi), and also the Rolex series. She is now going to work for champ car. Fact is people move around between the leagues because that’s where the work is in racing, and if you have some experience it can be an asset.

It’s actually debatable whether champ car will miss Cotman or not. I think he did some great things, but I also think he made some really bad brain dead calls.

Just exactly what is Cotman to do when they have things like the Milka scandal, and a Woman with big boobs gets to drive because the league wants the PR ( it took an insane a number of races to get her off the track). And exactly what is Cotman to do who with these flying cars in the air? And if you look at some of the rolling starts the IRL had, it makes CCWS look like F1.

And when it comes May, how is Cotman going to say no to the slew of drivers (many Alcoholics) that in absolutely no way are fit to drive on that dangerous speedway? What then is Cotman to do? I can’t wait to see him try and reform and bring some rules to that mess called the IRL.

The recent news of Cotman asking for control of negotiation between the two leagues in merger talks is a WILD request that is so far above Cotman’s ability to as to not be funny. The fact the matter is the IRL’s recent offers to CCWS had nothing to with mergers (else, talk of Cosworth engine leases should come up). This was simply an attempt at poaching teams, and Cotman comes along and says he wants to be the middle man in this deal? You got to be absolutely kidding me!

If Cotman had any integrity he would have pointed out the offers made by the IRL is poaching, and is actually a criminal offense ( as far as I read the law right now, the way those offers were made its actually illegal).

You mean Cotman was to negotiate and represent champ car to the IRL? You all going to stand here and ignore his ties to AGR racing?. You mean Cotman was going to represent the engine leases and interests of Cosworth for the IRL to use ?

It is Absolute stunning to stand here and ignore these big issues, and simply state that Cotman was always in the best interest of champ car, and that is clearly not the case.

I’m not looking to stand here and trash the guy, but I won’t put Cotman up on a pedestal either.

The Historic issues of Cotman’s conflicts of interest with CCWS runs rather deep, and I understand well why the owners did not trust him on many instances, and his leaving now somewhat tends to support that point of view...don't it...

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

What a bucket of delusion and raging spite this post is. Sad really.

I will only address your absurd and hysterical accusation that TG's attempt to entice CC teams to the IRL is somehow a criminal offense. Puleassse. That may be religious law in the finatical Jihadist culture of the TG hater web site but not here or in the real world. Teams are free to chose where they race. Whatever makes business sense always play a big part in that. One more thing, how was it okay for the Amigos to court Gannasi, Rahal/Letterman, Dryer Reinbold and Panther back in 2005?

Grow up and get a grip.

[spiritone]

Get a grip! Tell me what you think when one series owner tries to poach teams from another series and then tries to tell everyone that he's working on a merger. TG is nothing but a bald faced liar that pulls the same **** every year about this time. While there may be nothing illegal about his moves it sure shows alot about his morals.

[tbyars]

Get a grip! Tell me what you think when one series owner tries to poach teams from another series and then tries to tell everyone that he's working on a merger. TG is nothing but a bald faced liar that pulls the same **** every year about this time. While there may be nothing illegal about his moves it sure shows alot about his morals.
Are the Amigos then immoral for trying to "poach" Ganassi, D&R, and some of the others?

Or is it OK as long as it's CCWS?

And no, I'm not going to let Albert off the hook. He didn't say immoral, he said illegal. I want to see the law.

[ChaimWitz]

Get a grip! Tell me what you think when one series owner tries to poach teams from another series and then tries to tell everyone that he's working on a merger. TG is nothing but a bald faced liar that pulls the same **** every year about this time. While there may be nothing illegal about his moves it sure shows alot about his morals.

spiritone, Clearly there is more to this story than meets the eye and I doubt any of us are privy to the facts. One thing I do suspect however, is that the moral problems seem to be in the OWRS leadership who are apparently trying to cheat each other. BTW, just what is it that TG lied abut here? Links to quotes would be nice.

[Albert D. Kallal]

A few things:

First, apologies to saying “many” drivers are alcoholics. There been some cases of DWI’s, but many is a VERY unfair characterization of drivers and I thus apologize On that remark, it’s simply not fair and is unkind, my sorry.

As to the public offer being made to teams and how is it illegal? The fact that a public offer was supposedly made to the principles, but the main benefits and incentives are for the teams to move and not the principles means that yes it is in fact of poaching operation.

The owners of McDonald’s cannot go around to the principles of burger King, and make a public offer to the owners of burger King, yet all the benefits incentives to move are at the franchise level. That type of behavior is generally not legal. If it was, then you’d have the principles of McDonald’s running around making offers to the franchise owners of Burger king to switch.

You get around the above issue by making a pitch to the supposed principles of champ car, yet it’s clear that the benefits and incentives are being directed towards the team’s, and that’s why I’m pointing out is a grievous rotten disgusting kind of hardball to play in business.

We can stand here and argue about the letter of the law, but the fact remains it is a very morally reprehensible and disgusting position that the principles of the IRL have taken on this issue. The offer did not benefit the champ car in anyway, it did stand to benefit a few teams. It is really that simple.

It was not an offer of merger, but that of an offer of poaching. Many people can stand here and state that under the letter of the law they have some wiggle room. But, why do we want to aruge about wiggle room?, don’t we want honest and good people of integrity in this business?

It certainly is a sad day if people are to stand here and support this kind of behavior and actions without so much that giving it thought one way or the other.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[ChaimWitz]

A few things:

First, apologies to saying “many” drivers are alcoholics. There been some cases of DWI’s, but many is a VERY unfair characterization of drivers and I thus apologize On that remark, it’s simply not fair and is unkind, my sorry.

As to the public offer being made to teams and how is it illegal? The fact that a public offer was supposedly made to the principles, but the main benefits and incentives are for the teams to move and not the principles means that yes it is in fact of poaching operation.

The owners of McDonald’s cannot go around to the principles of burger King, and make a public offer to the owners of burger King, yet all the benefits incentives to move are at the franchise level. That type of behavior is generally not legal. If it was, then you’d have the principles of McDonald’s running around making offers to the franchise owners of Burger king to switch.

You get around the above issue by making a pitch to the supposed principles of champ car, yet it’s clear that the benefits and incentives are being directed towards the team’s, and that’s why I’m pointing out is a grievous rotten disgusting kind of hardball to play in business.

We can stand here and argue about the letter of the law, but the fact remains it is a very morally reprehensible and disgusting position that the principles of the IRL have taken on this issue. The offer did not benefit the champ car in anyway, it did stand to benefit a few teams. It is really that simple.

It was not an offer of merger, but that of an offer of poaching. Many people can stand here and state that under the letter of the law they have some wiggle room. But, why do we want to aruge about wiggle room?, don’t we want honest and good people of integrity in this business?

It certainly is a sad day if people are to stand here and support this kind of behavior and actions without so much that giving it thought one way or the other.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

Albert, Let's just say I disagree. How was this wrong given the fact that many of the CC teams initiated the conversations with the IRL in the first place?

This happens all the time. Teams check out other series. Witness the influx of open wheel teams into sports car racing. The IRL has been very public with incentives to attract teams. So far, no takers but that may change. KK was very coy 18 months ago believing that he had talked up to four IRL teams into jumping to ChampCar to take advantage of the incentives CC had at the time. With your logic, that would be criminal behavior.

The problem comes with the fantasy that some people hold that there is something of value left in ChampCar to merge with the IRL. I don't think there is much if anything left that is sufficient to offset the massive losses that the series likely delivers to the Amigos. They want out from under their financial pain but it seems they also want to save face too. That isn't going to happen IMHO and the Amigos and folks like yourself will not like it. It is going to come down to the real teams (the ones that are stable without Amigobucks) making their decisions about what is best for their futures — not the Amigos.

A smart businessman will simply cherry pick the assets of a failed competitor—which is exactly what ChampCar is looking like with each passing week.

[tbyars]

Sorry, Albert...that doesn't cut it. Let me quote your previous post one more time.


If Cotman had any integrity he would have pointed out the offers made by the IRL is poaching, and is actually a criminal offense ( as far as I read the law right now, the way those offers were made its actually illegal).


In this paragraph, you have done three things.

First of all, you have stated that Tony George has broken a criminal law. If so, I would be the first to say he should be prosecuted for it. But I need to see some proof.

Second, you are saying that Cotman is duplicitous in that, and, as such, has no integrity because he did not oppose TG in what he was doing.

And third, you made it very clear that you have the text of a specific statue at your disposal (since you said you are reading and interpreting a specific law) of which you can quote to us and give us your interpretation of why what TG did was illegal. (I believe you said the term was "poaching," a legal term with which I am not familiar.)

Those are all pretty serious allegations. Again, because you made those allegations publically, I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist that you formally back up those charges. Short of that, I would say you have seriously violated the forum's policies of use by outright accusing TG of criminal behavior. You didn't say it was your opinion; you said you had read the law and it was clear in your reading that TG was guilty of criminal behavior.

Again, under those circumstances, I think it is only fair to ask you to back up your allegations by AT LEAST citing the specific law you were reading.

[Albert D. Kallal]

Sorry, Albert...that doesn't cut it. Let me quote your previous post one more time.

In this paragraph, you have done three things.

First of all, you have stated that Tony George has broken a criminal law. If so, I would be the first to say he should be prosecuted for it. But I need to see some proof.


No I did not. Please quote where I said that. I did not even mention TG in the post at all…ANYWHERE!!!!
I said:



If Cotman had any integrity he would have pointed out the offers made by the IRL is poaching, and is actually a criminal offense ( as far as I read the law right now, the way those offers were made its actually illegal).


So, I said AS FAR as “I” read the law, the offers are illegal. So, it was as FAR AS I interpret the law…got it???? I did not state it as fact…got it??? And, while I used the word criminal, in my additional writing, I used the term illegal).

note in the above paragraph you see that I never stated Cotman was engaged in any illegal activity. I said the OFFERS were illegal, not that Cotman was behaving as such. This is a mount Everest, grand canyon of difference here.

By the way, if you’re wondering. It called Tortious interference.
I NEVER stated that TG could be prosecuted. I NEVER stated that TG would be prosecuted. I NEVER stated that TG should be prosecuted. (in fact, I NEVER mentioned TG at all!!!).

There are quite a few areas of law that this issue could, and would cover this issue. One area would be called “invitations to treat”, and there are other areas. The other area is simple contract law.

I never once stated that TG broke the law either. NEVER!!!

However, the point at hand here is the offer legitimate? It would be pretty remarkable for you to stand here and tell me that this is a serious offer to merger without any indication of what’s to be done with Cosworth? Please explain to me clearly what was supposed to be done with Cosworth? And if this supposedly is a serious realistic offer of merger then what was to be done with Formula Atlantics? And, if this was a serious realistic offer of merge then what was to be done with the new DP01?

Since you can’t come up with any proof for information or to anything that is credible in terms of what was made for these offers of these assets, then how can you state that this is a realistic offer of merger? You can not and until you can come up with something that is REASONABLE and legitimate, then this is simply Tortious interference.

There is also additional areas of law that this would come under. There is certainly some debate if these legal issues would be civl law, or criminal (it varies by state). Even tort law, liability law, business injury law all can be used here. Quite a wide swath.



Second, you are saying that Cotman is duplicitous in that, and, as such, has no integrity because he did not oppose TG in what he was doing.


No, I am not. I NEVER stated, or HINTED that Cotman is legally a criminal . I certainly don’t like his the actions however. What I’m saying is that the actions of the IRL are not legitimate, not honest and are inappropriate offers to champ car (and, yes, IMHO illegal). No one here has made any argument and as shown in any way or shape that the IRL offers are reasonable.

Since these offers are NOT Reasonable, then Cotman needed to take that position Publically.

I NEVER said or HINTED that Cotman is acting illegal here. NEVER EVER did I say such a thing!!!!!!!

I find it rather morally disgusting and morally reprehensible on your part that you would attempt publically attribute statements of that nature to me. I would never do such a thing publically, and yet you seem to have no problem with that kind of behavior whatsoever in any way shape or form (I am not going to reiterate the old story about the kettle calling someone black).

I said I believe the OFFERS are illegal and create undue interference in champ car. Once again, please don’t put words in my mouth. I NEVER accused Cotman of illegal behaviors. (I most certainly did accuse him of turning a blind eye to that behavior however). You seem quick to point your mouth at me, but you need to stop putting words and attributing things to me that I did not say. Please don’t do that in the future.

FURTHERMORE Cotman was volunteering to take on these negotiations and yet not acting in the interest of champ car ( once again what Cotman was doing was not criminal or illegal, but still not good!!). I still do believe that the offers in their form from the IRL were illegal.

You going to have to explain to me how issues of champ car alantices, the new car we just built, and even isues such as a the Europe reaces were not dealt with, and this offer can be considred legitimate?

You have to tell me how this was in the interest of champ car and how Cotman was behaving in a publicly correct manner for the interests of champ car?

Unless you can address these issues and tell me why that behavior was in the interest of champ car, then you have nothing to argue except that he was doing something that was not in the interest of champ car.



you said you had read the law and it was clear in your reading that TG was guilty of criminal behavior.


No, I never mentioned TG in the post. However, yes, I believe I am correct on my interpretation of the law and the interference that they caused here. If I am wrong, then I am interpreting the law wrong in this case. I CLEARLY stated this was my interpretation, and NEVER tired to hide this.

If it is not criminal behavior from an actual technical legal point of view, it’s still wrong behavior on the IRL’s part to what transpired, and that certainly is just my humble opinion. and I thought I made that point quite clear here also.

And, by the way, you made a few errors in what you publicly accused me of…you should retract and fix those.

You can if you wish that look up and look into some of the legal terms I've used and see if you agree or not with me...

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[Andrewmcm]

Blimey lads, calm down!

[nanders]

If Cotman had any integrity he would have pointed out the offers made by the IRL is poaching, and is actually a criminal offense ( as far as I read the law right now, the way those offers were made its actually illegal).


No I did not. Please quote where I said that. I did not even mention TG in the post at all…ANYWHERE!!!!
I said:



So, I said AS FAR as “I” read the law, the offers are illegal. So, it was as FAR AS I interpret the law…got it???? I did not state it as fact…got it??? And, while I used the word criminal, in my additional writing, I used the term illegal).

note in the above paragraph you see that I never stated Cotman was engaged in any illegal activity. I said the OFFERS were illegal, not that Cotman was behaving as such. This is a mount Everest, grand canyon of difference here.

By the way, if you’re wondering. It called Tortious interference.
I NEVER stated that TG could be prosecuted. I NEVER stated that TG would be prosecuted. I NEVER stated that TG should be prosecuted. (in fact, I NEVER mentioned TG at all!!!).

There are quite a few areas of law that this issue could, and would cover this issue. One area would be called “invitations to treat”, and there are other areas. The other area is simple contract law.

I never once stated that TG broke the law either. NEVER!!!

hmmmmm, Now the only one that was making offers was Tony George from what I know unless some new evidence has been brought forth. If not Tony then who?

Nice try at crawfishing there Al. The more you "stand here" and tell us, the worse you look.

[tbyars]

Geez, that was a lot of words to spin out of that, Albert.

Your original post was 100% clear. Now you want out. Seems like it would have been easier for you to say, "look, I was wrong in saying that, too."

Since that didn't happen, I still want to know what law you read (you DID use those exact words, didn't you} that gave you the idea that what "some nebulous person in the IRL did" was illegal. (You used that word, too.)

As nanders stated, TG has already admitted to all HE made the offer. You obviously know exactly which name you should put on the arrest warant.

It's a simple question, really. Was the law you CLEARLY said you read a federal law? Was it an Indiana state law? Or was it a local criminal ordanance in Indy or Speedway? You must have some idea in which jurisiction the law you read was broken.

If it was tortuous interference, perhaps you can tell us exactly what contract(s) were interfered with? Does Paul Gentelozzi REALLY have a contract that says he has to run in the CCWS?

Cosworth? We keep hearing here that they are doing SO WELL that they don't need CCWS. Aerospace, medical and all. You know, it's NOT a part of CCWS. It's a totally different LLC with a different management structure. Saying they MUST go along with CCWS is about like saying that when GF and KK bought Cossie, they should have had to buy Mazda as well.

But that's all just iceing on the cake. For now, I just want to know exactly which law you were reading.

[Albert D. Kallal]

hmmmmm, Now the only one that was making offers was Tony George from what I know unless some new evidence has been brought forth. If not Tony then who?

Nice try at crawfishing there Al. The more you "stand here" and tell us, the worse you look.

I specifically and clearly stated that it did not use the name Tony George. Several people here tried to attribute me as saying such. There’s a significant difference between the person Tony George, the legal entity called the IRL, AND AT WHAT point in time that Tony George is speaking under power of attorney to represent the IRL. If you have difficulty with these three concepts then I suggest you take some law courses.

However I have little desire to turn this post into a legal treaties on representation here. I can only assure you that I specifically avoided using TG name here on purpose, and yet several people here are trying to tell me I used his name in that post. I did no such thing.

If TG is the person that made the statements and offers to CCWS, then so be it. (I'm not going to stand here and deny thats the case). However, don’t pin a donkey on my tail for me stating a particular persons name when I did not.

I have little beef and no argument with the point of view that TG made this offer, but I DID NOT use his name in my post. However once again you’re missing the whole point that was I making, And furthermore I reiterate I never used TG's name in the post. It somewhat MOOT as to who made the offer however ( it could have been the Secretary if she was given permission (power of attorney) to do so, and that HAS very little to do with the point I was making.

Anyway I don’t really wanna turn this into a prolonged post to pick a fight here. If you disagree and think that the offers were fine and ok, then there’s really nothing I can do to change your mind on this point of view. It’s just not the way I would treat people, and it’s not the way I do business with people …..it’s that simple.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[ChaimWitz]

I specifically and clearly stated that it did not use the name Tony George. Several people here tried to attribute me as saying such. There’s a significant difference between the person Tony George, the legal entity called the IRL, AND AT WHAT point in time that Tony George is speaking under power of attorney to represent the IRL. If you have difficulty with these three concepts then I suggest you take some law courses.

However I have little desire to turn this post into a legal treaties on representation here. I can only assure you that I specifically avoided using TG name here on purpose, and yet several people here are trying to tell me I used his name in that post. I did no such thing.

If TG is the person that made the statements and offers to CCWS, then so be it. (I'm not going to stand here and deny thats the case). However, don’t pin a donkey on my tail for me stating a particular persons name when I did not.

I have little beef and no argument with the point of view that TG made this offer, but I DID NOT use his name in my post. However once again you’re missing the whole point that was I making, And furthermore I reiterate I never used TG's name in the post. It somewhat MOOT as to who made the offer however ( it could have been the Secretary if she was given permission (power of attorney) to do so, and that HAS very little to do with the point I was making.

Anyway I don’t really wanna turn this into a prolonged post to pick a fight here. If you disagree and think that the offers were fine and ok, then there’s really nothing I can do to change your mind on this point of view. It’s just not the way I would treat people, and it’s not the way I do business with people …..it’s that simple.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

My goodness. So much huffing and puffing.

The Canadian doth protest too much, methinks.

My dear Mr. Kallal, given your haughty moral altitude on all things business, just what is it that Mr. George should have done if he were lucky enough to be pure and good like you?

Perhaps, in your holier-than-thou view, he and his staff simply would have "done the right thing" and not competed for entrants in a market where they are both valuable and scarce?

It has been pointed out by multiple posters here that The Sainted Amigos have been commiting the same "criminal" activity that you have accused the IRL of engaging in. Perhaps if he were a pillar of virtue like you, Mr. George would have considered legal action against ChampCar and the Amigos?

I find it reprehensible that you don't seem to want to stop your defensive tirade long enough to consider the entire context and full scope of the circumstance.

To me, your posts are also proof that there is little sanity to be found on the fanatical fringes of this silly split. Please do check to see if you have forgotten to take any of your medications. Your behavior is scaring me.

[FlatChatRacer]

ChaimWitz,

You are spot on with your assessment of the poster called Albert D. Kallal. I have read his posts in this thread and they are nothing more than delusional, and biased diatribe.

Tbyars and nanders, clearly pointed out inconsistencies and requested clarification and he could not respond with anything close to an intelligent answer. He just backtracked and contradicted himself.

Read some of his posts on other threads and you will see that he rarely makes logical arguments.

I applaud the other posters for bringing him to task on the content of his arguments and accusations. He should not be allowed to write such nonsense
and not be accountable or provide a valid and plausible explanation.

Albert, read your posts again carefully and think about what you have written. Once you do that I am sure you will see why the rest of us have reacted so strongly.

This forum should be a place for reasonable and objective debating.

[nanders]

If it was tortuous interference, perhaps you can tell us exactly what contract(s) were interfered with? Does Paul Gentelozzi REALLY have a contract that says he has to run in the CCWS?

Now that you bring that up, I have been wondering if either series does have those kind of agreements in place. For instance, if any team is receiving assistance from the league are they precluded from negotiating with the other league? There are similar things in baseball and football.

Even though Al leaps to a conclusion here, no teams have crossed over lately so he may actually be on to something.

In the past I have made the statement that if I was a team owner I would run in both series ... I wonder if that is actually possible?

[nanders]

It is quite clear to me that obviously this conversation from a legal point of view has already gone beyond your intellectual ability to grasp and understand the issues at stake here.

You mean, that if I don't believe you because you haven't presented links to back up your statements that it's over my "intellectual ability to grasp and understand the issues at stake here?" You maybe right. Please just present your proof. I'm sure you were probably reading Indiana tort law, right? And I'm sure you probably know who actually made the "offer," right?

Please fill in the gaps for me, because I'm just a poorly educated backwoods Kansas farm boy that hasn't had the benefit of a big city education. I live by a few basic principles that my little old daddy taught me. 1. Don't show people your a**. 2. Don't let your a** overload your mouth. Then my mother "rest her soul," done learnt me, how to spell and proof read what I wrote. She also told me that getting the facts straight is part of proof-reading.

[spiritone]

MMMMMMMM! Reasonable debate. Champcar fans defending FTG actions.




Very curious.

[Albert D. Kallal]

My dear Mr. Kallal, given your haughty moral altitude on all things business, just what is it that Mr. George should have done if he were lucky enough to be pure and good like you?


He would've made a consideration of the Cosworth power plant and the current car were using, it's that simple.

Here’s the thing, I going to sit back and relax and try to explain my position here. I am somewhat surprised that you don’t think that the engine is an important factor in racing.

Over the years when I’ve attended a race, one of the near top things in terms of fan experience was the sound of the car. Another additional thing that blows the socks off of fans is the outright absolute balls out acceleration and performance of the Cosworth XFE.

This is an race bred engine that has 40 plus years of history behind it. To watch a champ “TRY” to accelerate is a thing of beauty. The car stutters, slides, worms sideways, and the car buckles and complains as the car desperately tries to gain traction and put power down to the ground.

Watching this process of a car fighting nature’s and the laws of physics is the thing that the glory of racing is made of.

Perhaps you’ve never watched a racing car accelerate and the resulting hair standing on your back, and the goose bumps on your arms is something that makes the price of the ticket insignificant.

I suppose some people don’t care about the engine sound, and would be happy if cars were powered by pedal cars. Perhaps you don’t care about breathtaking acceleration of numbers these cars put down on paper, but you just go to the race to view the women there.

Furthermore, the turbo charging package on a champ car also means that there is no air box behind a driver. The result of this turbo charging that means that a champ car has a particularly distinctive look to it and one that makes it look very muscular. Here is a picture of what I mean:

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws1/carback1.jpg

All in all the very heart and soul of racing and especially in champ car is the distinctive and very high powered engine that rests down in the bowels of the car.

I honestly believe in my heart that one of the most important aspect of champ cars is this incredibly powerful turbocharged high performance engine. I think that the engine is a significant aspect of the whole champ car Experience, and I have to wonder why have to spend all of this passionate time explaining to you how important a engine is to the whole champ car experience.

Perhaps you have different tastes and racing, perhaps you don’t get racing the way I do, I really don’t know, but suffice to say that the whole engine package from the sounds, the smells, the phenomenal acceleration is a significant part of the whole champ car experience.
And, again,without an air box behind the driver, you get a VERY good looking car, here is another picture:

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws7/nhl3.jpg

and

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws7/nhl2.jpg

It is in the above light and point of view as to why I find an offer to have reduced cost Honda power plants being offered to teams to entice them to move over to the IRL is an insult to me. You might as well take a knife, cut out my heart, throw it on the ground, and then crap on it.

It is very possible that I am completely 100% unique in my point of view that the engine and power plant used in the racing is a significant contributing factor to the fan experience. It is possible that I am just so standing alone in this point that you don't see the engines as being important at all.

However every time I talked to a fan about saying how cool the engines sounds, there’s a resounding thumbs up and the smile on that person looks like a baby when they just got their favorite candy.

So, as a fan I do think the engine package is important, and therefore when someone comes along and makes an offer to poach teams and 100% IGNORE this engine aspect is a insult to me.

Therefore I have to conclude that it’s a rotten offer because it completely ignores a significant asset and aspect of the whole champ car experience. It ignores the very issue that is a significant part of the branding of the whole champ car experience.

I sincerely believe that the whole engine package is a significant contributing factor to the whole champ car experience, and these people are completely ignoring that aspect. It is possible that they don’t care about racing like I do, and it’s possible that they don’t understand and know that the engine is important. However I find it very much a stretch of imagination that people who dedicated their lives to racing would not understand this aspect.

I’m not really sure why have to spend so much time pointing that offers that ignore the engine and the very essence of champ car is a bad deal for champ car fans.

Should not just been able to stay in one simple sentence that the engine is an important aspect of champ car? (which I originally did). I am at a loss as to why I have to spend such a large amount of time explaining that this aspect is rather significant.

If you can find me a fan that doesn’t care about the engine in a race then I would propose to you that person is not there for the racing but only there for the beer and the women.

Once again if anyone found some of my remarks offensive, I really do sincerely apologize, but I have to stand up for what I believe in, offers that ignore the crown jewels of champ car was VERY insulting to me, it really honestly was ...



Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[tbyars]

Gee, those sure are pretty pictures.

It's really simple, Albert. As has been stated here several times, the losers don't get to set conditions. Whether it disappears this year or next, CCWS has lost when NHL leaves.

You may not like that, but that is the way it is.

If Cossie wants to be a part of the IRL, they need to go out and get their NA engine engine badged. Those are the rules. Short of that, fegetaboutit!

By the way, you have still managed to avoid my question about which law you were reading. Do you not believe that is a reasonable question?


(as far as I read the law right now, the way those offers were made its actually illegal).

Or could it be you were just regurgitating what someone put into your head at another site?

[Sandfly]

He would've made a consideration of the Cosworth power plant and the current car were using, it's that simple.

Here’s the thing, I going to sit back and relax and try to explain my position here. I am somewhat surprised that you don’t think that the engine is an important factor in racing.

Over the years when I’ve attended a race, one of the near top things in terms of fan experience was the sound of the car. Another additional thing that blows the socks off of fans is the outright absolute balls out acceleration and performance of the Cosworth XFE.

This is an race bred engine that has 40 plus years of history behind it. To watch a champ “TRY” to accelerate is a thing of beauty. The car stutters, slides, worms sideways, and the car buckles and complains as the car desperately tries to gain traction and put power down to the ground.

Watching this process of a car fighting nature’s and the laws of physics is the thing that the glory of racing is made of.

Perhaps you’ve never watched a racing car accelerate and the resulting hair standing on your back, and the goose bumps on your arms is something that makes the price of the ticket insignificant.

I suppose some people don’t care about the engine sound, and would be happy if cars were powered by pedal cars. Perhaps you don’t care about breathtaking acceleration of numbers these cars put down on paper, but you just go to the race to view the women there.

Furthermore, the turbo charging package on a champ car also means that there is no air box behind a driver. The result of this turbo charging that means that a champ car has a particularly distinctive look to it and one that makes it look very muscular. Here is a picture of what I mean:

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws1/carback1.jpg

All in all the very heart and soul of racing and especially in champ car is the distinctive and very high powered engine that rests down in the bowels of the car.

I honestly believe in my heart that one of the most important aspect of champ cars is this incredibly powerful turbocharged high performance engine. I think that the engine is a significant aspect of the whole champ car Experience, and I have to wonder why have to spend all of this passionate time explaining to you how important a engine is to the whole champ car experience.

Perhaps you have different tastes and racing, perhaps you don’t get racing the way I do, I really don’t know, but suffice to say that the whole engine package from the sounds, the smells, the phenomenal acceleration is a significant part of the whole champ car experience.
And, again,without an air box behind the driver, you get a VERY good looking car, here is another picture:

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws7/nhl3.jpg

and

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws7/nhl2.jpg

It is in the above light and point of view as to why I find an offer to have reduced cost Honda power plants being offered to teams to entice them to move over to the IRL is an insult to me. You might as well take a knife, cut out my heart, throw it on the ground, and then crap on it.

It is very possible that I am completely 100% unique in my point of view that the engine and power plant used in the racing is a significant contributing factor to the fan experience. It is possible that I am just so standing alone in this point that you don't see the engines as being important at all.

However every time I talked to a fan about saying how cool the engines sounds, there’s a resounding thumbs up and the smile on that person looks like a baby when they just got their favorite candy.

So, as a fan I do think the engine package is important, and therefore when someone comes along and makes an offer to poach teams and 100% IGNORE this engine aspect is a insult to me.

Therefore I have to conclude that it’s a rotten offer because it completely ignores a significant asset and aspect of the whole champ car experience. It ignores the very issue that is a significant part of the branding of the whole champ car experience.

I sincerely believe that the whole engine package is a significant contributing factor to the whole champ car experience, and these people are completely ignoring that aspect. It is possible that they don’t care about racing like I do, and it’s possible that they don’t understand and know that the engine is important. However I find it very much a stretch of imagination that people who dedicated their lives to racing would not understand this aspect.

I’m not really sure why have to spend so much time pointing that offers that ignore the engine and the very essence of champ car is a bad deal for champ car fans.

Should not just been able to stay in one simple sentence that the engine is an important aspect of champ car? (which I originally did). I am at a loss as to why I have to spend such a large amount of time explaining that this aspect is rather significant.

If you can find me a fan that doesn’t care about the engine in a race then I would propose to you that person is not there for the racing but only there for the beer and the women.

Once again if anyone found some of my remarks offensive, I really do sincerely apologize, but I have to stand up for what I believe in, offers that ignore the crown jewels of champ car was VERY insulting to me, it really honestly was ...



Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com


You sir, are eloquent and 100% correct. The visual and auditory aestheics are clearly superior in the CC version of open wheel racing . But it is more than simply "looks" and "sound". It reflects and essential difference in the nature of the racing itself. Anyone who has witnessed both series recognizes the difference immediatly. Yet TG supposes that those elements are unimportant - not worthy of being included in the discussion. That is why he should never be entrusted with our sport.

I am sure that the usual IRL faithful with jump on your post and mine - declaring us to be "delusional" CC fanaticals, out of touch with reality. I would suggest that the opposite is in fact true, and that fans know it. See you at Long Beach.

[jimispeed]

Thank you Albert....

Beautifully said!!

[ChaimWitz]

Albert,

I agree with your comments regarding the sound and visual appeal of a ChampCar. Both are superior to what an IRL car currently offers. The haunting wail of turbo charged ChampCar/IndyCar engine has stirred my soul since I first heard the DOHC Ford V8s and Offies in the early 1970s and all the way through to the current era. The Panoz DP01 spec car is also a newer and indeed a better-looking racing car than a circa 2003 de facto spec car Dallara. To a purist, like myself (and most here on these boards) these things matter very much. Unfortunately, to the masses, they mean far less. The casual racing fan connects to the personalities. That is where ChampCar has been a near total flop and now sadly finds little media and marketing traction. Call it an artistic success if you want, but despite the fact that these cars and engines look and sound nice, far to few people care about the Champ Car World Series. The truth is that it is not remotely viable on a commercial level. Therein lies the rub of playing to the purist/elitist open wheel racing fan in America. There aren't enough of us to build a business around—especially when there are two similar series competing for casual fans in a niche market space.

I do have some second hand insight into what went down in the unification talks of 2005 and 2006. Apparently, KK pushed hard for the adoption of the Cosworth and the Panoz DP1 Spec cars and it was considered but not embraced by TG. This was primarily for cost reasons. The idea of buying 45 new chassis for every team in the IRL, as well as 30 for Champ Car teams was a very expensive proposition—especially considering the financial state of many teams on both sides of the split. In this light, the thought of tossing Honda's money and support aside for Ford’s (which was paying very little at the time and is still in deep financial trouble) apparently made no sense either to TG (not to mention the fact that he had a binding contract with Honda that had just been signed). There were also supposedly concerns from the IRL about the DP1's high nosed configuration's safety on ovals in the event of running over debris and being launched. In hindsight, the cost issue did really have merit but given the obvious nose high stance of a Dallara when trimmed for oval speed, I question the latter concern. Regardless, the real reason nothing happened was that it would have been a bad idea to create business partnership between people of such divergent interests and so little in common. Just look at the infighting between the Amigos now and the dire consequences. In the end, this all fell apart because the pieces obviously didn't fit. One thing that I am told did come out of it was the IRL's very real willingness to consider a turbocharged engine in a future formula. This does not surprise me, for In fact, when the original rules for the IRL were announced in the summer of 1994 they were for a small displacement V-8 Turbo motor and chassis rules that called for a reduction of the downforce generated via the underbody when compared to CART rules. These specs should not be confused with those for the 1995 and older CART cars that the IRL used in their lamentable inaugural 1996 season.

It is also relevant to point out that there have been two separate studies by design schools in the past 12 months commissioned by the IRL to explore the visual aspects of the next generation of cars. Perhaps they finally understand the importance of aesthetics. I suspect that TG may have gotten the message on this point. Time will tell and we will all get to find out soon enough.

Back to the point of this reply in a thread supposedly about Tony Cotman going to the IRL. He summed up what many people are feeling now when he said that he is going to the IRL because that is where the future of open wheel racing is. While you may not like that, it looks almost certain to be the case given the business disasters that have been the hallmark of the OWRS era. As a result, the Amigos have very little leverage to demand anything from anyone at this point—especially Tony George.

A small group of hardcore Panoz-DP-1-loving-Cosworth-sound-worshiping- TG-hating ChampCar fans is simply not big enough to tip the balance of power in the Amigo's favor so TG will get to set the rules.

Given that Tony Cotman was personally involved in the creation and launch of the Swift Mazda Atlantic program and later the Panoz DP-1, I have some hope that good things are possible now that he is at the IRL. I also wonder who can fill his very big shoes at ChampCar.

[sanguin]

Gee, those sure are pretty pictures.

It's really simple, Albert. As has been stated here several times, the losers don't get to set conditions. Whether it disappears this year or next, CCWS has lost when NHL leaves.

You may not like that, but that is the way it is

NHL isn't leaving CC this year or next. Champ Car will go on.

NHL isn't leaving CC this year or next. Champ Car will go on.

Any chance of a link?

Or will you just ignore this request to back up your statement as you do all the others?

[sanguin]

Any chance of a link?

Or will you just ignore this request to back up your statement as you do all the others?

Just that they said so at Sebring.

from another forum.

Just that they said so at Sebring.

from another forum.

Oh.

Well, if it was said on another forum, it must be true.

[nanders]

Just that they said so at Sebring.

from another forum.

I'm sure that other forum has a link to the quote, right?

[garyshell]

Just that they said so at Sebring.

from another forum.


Do you even understand the concept of "proof"? How does an anonymous comment offer any sort of proof? I have nothing to show they are or are not moving in 2008 or 2009, that's why I make no claim. You flatly state they are not moving as FACT, and then offer nothing to support that fact. This idiotic behavior is making the rest of us who are still fans of the series look bad.

Gary

[sanguin]

Do you even understand the concept of "proof"? How does an anonymous comment offer any sort of proof? I have nothing to show they are or are not moving in 2008 or 2009, that's why I make no claim. You flatly state they are not moving as FACT, and then offer nothing to support that fact. This idiotic behavior is making the rest of us who are still fans of the series look bad.

Gary

Its from Sebring. IMO better source than RM.

[garyshell]

Its from Sebring. IMO better source than RM.


Again, you provide no proof. No quote from NHL, no link to a press release. Even the garabage you posted in your PM to me offers no evidence. I think I made myself quite clear in my reply to your PM. And I bet others here can guess as to its content. The time has come to draw a line in the sand. You do nothing here except make the series and those of us who ARE still fans look bad.

Day in and day out, you offer opinion as fact and then when called on it you divert the question, or ATTEMPT to find some way to weasle out of it. Your pollyanna attitude here is doing NOTHING to help the series.

Gary

Again, you provide no proof. No quote from NHL, no link to a press release. Even the garabage you posted in your PM to me offers no evidence. I think I made myself quite clear in my reply to your PM. And I bet others here can guess as to its content. The time has come to draw a line in the sand. You do nothing here except make the series and those of us who ARE still fans look bad.

Day in and day out, you offer opinion as fact and then when called on it you divert the question, or ATTEMPT to find some way to weasle out of it. Your pollyanna attitude here is doing NOTHING to help the series.

Gary

But what if the next IRL car does turn out to have 'fenders' and Carl Haas says that was the reason he lost interest in going to the IRL?

[sanguin]

But what if the next IRL car does turn out to have 'fenders' and Carl Haas says that was the reason he lost interest in going to the IRL?

Exactly. IMO, I believe,of course.

[sanguin]

Again, you provide no proof. No quote from NHL, no link to a press release. Even the garabage you posted in your PM to me offers no evidence. I think I made myself quite clear in my reply to your PM. And I bet others here can guess as to its content. The time has come to draw a line in the sand. You do nothing here except make the series and those of us who ARE still fans look bad.

Day in and day out, you offer opinion as fact and then when called on it you divert the question, or ATTEMPT to find some way to weasle out of it. Your pollyanna attitude here is doing NOTHING to help the series.

Gary

As opposed to all the D&G that gets posted and proven wrong?

I can't discuss every topic like I would want to,our posts are restricted. I asked for links many times and have not got any. Double standard.

I post on many forums,never have hostility like this.

I post on many forums,never have hostility like this.

To be fair, when you give out info that has no basis in fact, what do you expect?

[garyshell]

But what if the next IRL car does turn out to have 'fenders' and Carl Haas says that was the reason he lost interest in going to the IRL?


Exactly. IMO, I believe,of course.

See what you have done Tamburello? Tsk, Tsk, you have feed the little court jester. ;)

Gary

[garyshell]

As opposed to all the D&G that gets posted and proven wrong?

I can't discuss every topic like I would want to,our posts are restricted. I asked for links many times and have not got any. Double standard.

Oh, poor little you. I **** at the non linked speculation presented as facts from BOTH sides of the aisle. No double standard at all.


I post on many forums,never have hostility like this. Hmmm, maybe that should tell you where you should be posting then, don't ya think?

Gary

[spiritone]

Since there is no basis in fact that NHL are going to the irl in 2009 tamburello whats your point.

As champcar fans we are basking in the glory of the first test of 2008 and don't need the useless arguments and constant d&g from the trolls.

[garyshell]

Since there is no basis in fact that NHL are going to the irl in 2009 tamburello whats your point.

As champcar fans we are basking in the glory of the first test of 2008 and don't need the useless arguments and constant d&g from the trolls.

Well yes, if you exclude the words from Carl Haas himself, then there is no basis in fact. Jessh, please do try to keep up.

Show me exactly where Tamburello has been a party to the d&g trolling you speak of. All he has done is call out pollyanna sanguin for refusing to provide any substantive proof for his claims. Since when is calling for truth equal to promoting d&g or even trolling?

Tamburello and I have butted heads on more than one occasion. But if you think he is trolling you either haven't bothered to read his posts, think everyone who doesn't wear the rose colored pollyanna sanguin glasses is a troll, or have no clue what trolling means.

Gary

[spiritone]

Show me the link where carl says he is joining the irl.



As for trolling, you should give your head a shake and check out the number of threads around here that start out as negative opinion of champcar ( usually by the same posters). The season is about to start and i think it all looks good. If you guys want to spend your time talking about what you perceive as champcar screwups than get ready to be criticized by a fan who might have a different opinion.

[garyshell]

Show me the link where carl says he is joining the irl.



As for trolling, you should give your head a shake and check out the number of threads around here that start out as negative opinion of champcar ( usually by the same posters). The season is about to start and i think it all looks good. If you guys want to spend your time talking about what you perceive as champcar screwups than get ready to be criticized by a fan who might have a different opinion.


Here is your quote: http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=228079&hubname=auto_racing

I have no problem with a fan who has a different opinion.

Tell me, what do YOU think of the series relegating the Cleveland race to a one hour tape delayed highlight show?

Gary

[spiritone]

Gary, i'm 67 years old, i have been a champcar fan since the 50's. I have a 11 year old grandson that is about to race a mini sprint. I will be a champcar fan till there is no more champcar (which i hope will be never in my lifetime) So something like reducing cleveland to a one hour highlight show is not going to make me abandon the series that i love. Real champcar fans don't give up.


Carl may have made that quote, but i will bet you that it will never happen if Paul N is still around.

[garyshell]

Gary, i'm 67 years old, i have been a champcar fan since the 50's. I have a 11 year old grandson that is about to race a mini sprint. I will be a champcar fan till there is no more champcar (which i hope will be never in my lifetime) So something like reducing cleveland to a one hour highlight show is not going to make me abandon the series that i love. Real champcar fans don't give up.


Carl may have made that quote, but i will bet you that it will never happen if Paul N is still around.

And I am 56, and have been a champcar fan since about 1957. I am not suggesting that reducing Cleveland to a one hour show will, or should, make anyone abandon the series. I sure as hell won't. But it does make me wonder what the Amigos are smoking these days. I haven't given up. Nor do I advocate that anyone else should give up. I too, will be a fan until the bitter end. A fan of the series, but not the way it is run.

But I must tell you I have become VERY disenchanted with the management of the series. Please carefully note I am drawing a clear distinction between the series and it's management. I also have come to the conclusion that, as painful as it may be (my hatred for "...king George" is well known here), we can not continue to play this waiting game. It's been thirteen years and no one blinked. And both sides of the aisle are in bad shape, with no REAL light at the end of either tunnel. This thirteen year experiment that two open wheel series can successfully exist is a complete and utter failure. Because, in the end the Madison Ave. suits are really the ones who rule racing (like it or not that IS the current business model) any solution that does not include the 500 is bound to fail. I suppose a case cold be made if we waited long enough that the 500 no longer mattered to Madison Ave. things could be turned around. But are we REALLY prepared to wait THAT long???

Gary

P.S. I suspect you are right about Carl and Paul. I am afraid that we may see the end of N&H.

[tbyars]

Gary, i'm 67 years old, i have been a champcar fan since the 50's. I have a 11 year old grandson that is about to race a mini sprint. I will be a champcar fan till there is no more champcar (which i hope will be never in my lifetime) So something like reducing cleveland to a one hour highlight show is not going to make me abandon the series that i love. Real champcar fans don't give up.


Carl may have made that quote, but i will bet you that it will never happen if Paul N is still around.

Here we go again. Here is the strategy we see time and time again. First, give the resume proving how good a CC fan you are. Then, when confronted with the evidence you have asked for and it turns out to be real (a true catharsis for someone in Sanguin's camp), you simple ignore the comments of the team owner, and say the evidence - in this case coming from the mouth of the team owner - doesn't really matter because it doesn't fit your world view.

That's why sanguin doesn't care about proof. Proof NEVER trumps what they want to believe.

Spiritone, I appreciate your dedication to the series. I think a lot of us would also appreciate a little realism to go with it. It would give you more credibility overall.

Show me the link where carl says he is joining the irl.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64852

"Champ Car team co-owner Carl Haas plans to take his multiple title-winning team to the rival IndyCar Series in 2009 if a merger between the two championships cannot be agreed before then.

Haas, who owns Champ Car's most successful team Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing with Paul Newman an Mike Lanigan, told SpeedTV: "It hasn't happened yet but we've certainly considered going.

"It may not happen this year, but it's highly probably that we'll go for 2009 because there needs to be one series."

Oh look, how novel, someone providing a link to back up their statement!

If only it would catch on.

[ChaimWitz]

I have known Carl Haas for over thirty years and he is no fool. He is clearly smart with his money and a far more kind and loyal man than most suspect. He also does not like to be associated with people who can't run a business or keep their facts straight. To me, this means big trouble for the Amigos. They assumed too much in the loyalty of PLN and Carl and should not take them for granted.

As for IRL cars with fenders... that is simply silly. Anyone who knows the history of the car concepts that have been suggested to Brian Barnhart and Tony George, understands that they have rejected anything that is not an open wheel car. Just ask Humpy Wheeler. He showed them a drawing back in the 1990s of a full bodied car and I hear it did not go well at all. Also look at the criteria (and the resultant drawings) for the future Indy Car projects that the IRL has given to Art Center and to The College For Creative Studies: "With respect to design, safety must be taken into consideration at every stage as it is the primary concern for drivers, officials, crew and fans," Barnhart said. "The only design requirement is that the cars must be open-wheel."

So, what else is there to discuss on these subjects?

[sanguin]

I don't think any teams will leave for the other series in 2009. IMO it doesn't make sense to invest in the cars or series if it is changing for 2010.

We will see if the car will have bumpers or not. The reason was to attract nascar drivers and fans and have more close racing with bumping, according to the rumor.

[ChaimWitz]

I don't think any teams will leave for the other series in 2009. IMO it doesn't make sense to invest in the cars or series if it is changing for 2010.

We will see if the car will have bumpers or not. The reason was to attract nascar drivers and fans and have more close racing with bumping, according to the rumor.

So the teams are leaving in 2008 then?

[EagleEye]

He would've made a consideration of the Cosworth power plant and the current car were using, it's that simple.

Here’s the thing, I going to sit back and relax and try to explain my position here. I am somewhat surprised that you don’t think that the engine is an important factor in racing.

Over the years when I’ve attended a race, one of the near top things in terms of fan experience was the sound of the car. Another additional thing that blows the socks off of fans is the outright absolute balls out acceleration and performance of the Cosworth XFE.

This is an race bred engine that has 40 plus years of history behind it. To watch a champ “TRY” to accelerate is a thing of beauty. The car stutters, slides, worms sideways, and the car buckles and complains as the car desperately tries to gain traction and put power down to the ground.

Watching this process of a car fighting nature’s and the laws of physics is the thing that the glory of racing is made of.

Perhaps you’ve never watched a racing car accelerate and the resulting hair standing on your back, and the goose bumps on your arms is something that makes the price of the ticket insignificant.

I suppose some people don’t care about the engine sound, and would be happy if cars were powered by pedal cars. Perhaps you don’t care about breathtaking acceleration of numbers these cars put down on paper, but you just go to the race to view the women there.

Furthermore, the turbo charging package on a champ car also means that there is no air box behind a driver. The result of this turbo charging that means that a champ car has a particularly distinctive look to it and one that makes it look very muscular. Here is a picture of what I mean:

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws1/carback1.jpg

All in all the very heart and soul of racing and especially in champ car is the distinctive and very high powered engine that rests down in the bowels of the car.

I honestly believe in my heart that one of the most important aspect of champ cars is this incredibly powerful turbocharged high performance engine. I think that the engine is a significant aspect of the whole champ car Experience, and I have to wonder why have to spend all of this passionate time explaining to you how important a engine is to the whole champ car experience.

Perhaps you have different tastes and racing, perhaps you don’t get racing the way I do, I really don’t know, but suffice to say that the whole engine package from the sounds, the smells, the phenomenal acceleration is a significant part of the whole champ car experience.
And, again,without an air box behind the driver, you get a VERY good looking car, here is another picture:

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws7/nhl3.jpg

and

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws7/nhl2.jpg

It is in the above light and point of view as to why I find an offer to have reduced cost Honda power plants being offered to teams to entice them to move over to the IRL is an insult to me. You might as well take a knife, cut out my heart, throw it on the ground, and then crap on it.

It is very possible that I am completely 100% unique in my point of view that the engine and power plant used in the racing is a significant contributing factor to the fan experience. It is possible that I am just so standing alone in this point that you don't see the engines as being important at all.

However every time I talked to a fan about saying how cool the engines sounds, there’s a resounding thumbs up and the smile on that person looks like a baby when they just got their favorite candy.

So, as a fan I do think the engine package is important, and therefore when someone comes along and makes an offer to poach teams and 100% IGNORE this engine aspect is a insult to me.

Therefore I have to conclude that it’s a rotten offer because it completely ignores a significant asset and aspect of the whole champ car experience. It ignores the very issue that is a significant part of the branding of the whole champ car experience.

I sincerely believe that the whole engine package is a significant contributing factor to the whole champ car experience, and these people are completely ignoring that aspect. It is possible that they don’t care about racing like I do, and it’s possible that they don’t understand and know that the engine is important. However I find it very much a stretch of imagination that people who dedicated their lives to racing would not understand this aspect.

I’m not really sure why have to spend so much time pointing that offers that ignore the engine and the very essence of champ car is a bad deal for champ car fans.

Should not just been able to stay in one simple sentence that the engine is an important aspect of champ car? (which I originally did). I am at a loss as to why I have to spend such a large amount of time explaining that this aspect is rather significant.

If you can find me a fan that doesn’t care about the engine in a race then I would propose to you that person is not there for the racing but only there for the beer and the women.

Once again if anyone found some of my remarks offensive, I really do sincerely apologize, but I have to stand up for what I believe in, offers that ignore the crown jewels of champ car was VERY insulting to me, it really honestly was ...



Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

Albert, you are 100% correct that the engine manufacturer is an extremely important, if not the most important factor in most major racing series. I also agree 100% that the cars look better, sound better, etc.

But, where your argument fails the test is, how much money does Cosworth pour into Champcar? Look at F1, and the money spent my BMW, Toyota, MB, Ferrari and Honda.

Look how much Honda has promoted open wheel racing here in the US, first with CART and now with the IRL. THAT is what the series needs.

To be honest, I don't care if they use Hyundai engines, as long as the engine manufacturer is spending money to not only support but promote the race series in which they are part of. We have seen Honda use the IRL in the commercials, and we have even been able to enjoy Mazda's use of the Atlantic cars in its commercials. But for Champcar right now, nada.

I've disagreed with TG on many fronts, but his trying to keep the engines badged with a manufacturer, is the right way to go. The question remains, how long will manufacturers continue to support open wheel racing?

Unfortunately, racing became a business long ago, and while I liked cars that ran with their country colors instead of the moving billboards we have today, that is the way it is. Any successful race series needs manufacturer support and $$, and this sadly trumps tradition and heritage.

[EagleEye]

He would've made a consideration of the Cosworth power plant and the current car were using, it's that simple.

Here’s the thing, I going to sit back and relax and try to explain my position here. I am somewhat surprised that you don’t think that the engine is an important factor in racing.

Over the years when I’ve attended a race, one of the near top things in terms of fan experience was the sound of the car. Another additional thing that blows the socks off of fans is the outright absolute balls out acceleration and performance of the Cosworth XFE.

This is an race bred engine that has 40 plus years of history behind it. To watch a champ “TRY” to accelerate is a thing of beauty. The car stutters, slides, worms sideways, and the car buckles and complains as the car desperately tries to gain traction and put power down to the ground.

Watching this process of a car fighting nature’s and the laws of physics is the thing that the glory of racing is made of.

Perhaps you’ve never watched a racing car accelerate and the resulting hair standing on your back, and the goose bumps on your arms is something that makes the price of the ticket insignificant.

I suppose some people don’t care about the engine sound, and would be happy if cars were powered by pedal cars. Perhaps you don’t care about breathtaking acceleration of numbers these cars put down on paper, but you just go to the race to view the women there.

Furthermore, the turbo charging package on a champ car also means that there is no air box behind a driver. The result of this turbo charging that means that a champ car has a particularly distinctive look to it and one that makes it look very muscular. Here is a picture of what I mean:

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws1/carback1.jpg

All in all the very heart and soul of racing and especially in champ car is the distinctive and very high powered engine that rests down in the bowels of the car.

I honestly believe in my heart that one of the most important aspect of champ cars is this incredibly powerful turbocharged high performance engine. I think that the engine is a significant aspect of the whole champ car Experience, and I have to wonder why have to spend all of this passionate time explaining to you how important a engine is to the whole champ car experience.

Perhaps you have different tastes and racing, perhaps you don’t get racing the way I do, I really don’t know, but suffice to say that the whole engine package from the sounds, the smells, the phenomenal acceleration is a significant part of the whole champ car experience.
And, again,without an air box behind the driver, you get a VERY good looking car, here is another picture:

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws7/nhl3.jpg

and

http://www.kallal.ca/ccws7/nhl2.jpg

It is in the above light and point of view as to why I find an offer to have reduced cost Honda power plants being offered to teams to entice them to move over to the IRL is an insult to me. You might as well take a knife, cut out my heart, throw it on the ground, and then crap on it.

It is very possible that I am completely 100% unique in my point of view that the engine and power plant used in the racing is a significant contributing factor to the fan experience. It is possible that I am just so standing alone in this point that you don't see the engines as being important at all.

However every time I talked to a fan about saying how cool the engines sounds, there’s a resounding thumbs up and the smile on that person looks like a baby when they just got their favorite candy.

So, as a fan I do think the engine package is important, and therefore when someone comes along and makes an offer to poach teams and 100% IGNORE this engine aspect is a insult to me.

Therefore I have to conclude that it’s a rotten offer because it completely ignores a significant asset and aspect of the whole champ car experience. It ignores the very issue that is a significant part of the branding of the whole champ car experience.

I sincerely believe that the whole engine package is a significant contributing factor to the whole champ car experience, and these people are completely ignoring that aspect. It is possible that they don’t care about racing like I do, and it’s possible that they don’t understand and know that the engine is important. However I find it very much a stretch of imagination that people who dedicated their lives to racing would not understand this aspect.

I’m not really sure why have to spend so much time pointing that offers that ignore the engine and the very essence of champ car is a bad deal for champ car fans.

Should not just been able to stay in one simple sentence that the engine is an important aspect of champ car? (which I originally did). I am at a loss as to why I have to spend such a large amount of time explaining that this aspect is rather significant.

If you can find me a fan that doesn’t care about the engine in a race then I would propose to you that person is not there for the racing but only there for the beer and the women.

Once again if anyone found some of my remarks offensive, I really do sincerely apologize, but I have to stand up for what I believe in, offers that ignore the crown jewels of champ car was VERY insulting to me, it really honestly was ...



Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

Albert, you are 100% correct that the engine manufacturer is an extremely important, if not the most important factor in most major racing series. I also agree 100% that the cars look better, sound better, etc.

But, where your argument fails the test is, how much money does Cosworth pour into Champcar? Look at F1, and the money spent my BMW, Toyota, MB, Ferrari and Honda.

Look how much Honda has promoted open wheel racing here in the US, first with CART and now with the IRL. THAT is what the series needs.

To be honest, I don't care if they use Hyundai engines, as long as the engine manufacturer is spending money to not only support but promote the race series in which they are part of. We have seen Honda use the IRL in the commercials, and we have even been able to enjoy Mazda's use of the Atlantic cars in its commercials. But for Champcar right now, nada.

I've disagreed with TG on many fronts, but his trying to keep the engines badged with a manufacturer, is the right way to go. The question remains, how long will manufacturers continue to support open wheel racing?

Unfortunately, racing became a business long ago, and while I liked cars that ran with their country colors instead of the moving billboards we have today, that is the way it is. Any successful race series needs manufacturer support and $$, and this sadly trumps tradition and heritage.

[garyshell]

We will see if the car will have bumpers or not. The reason was to attract nascar drivers and fans and have more close racing with bumping, according to the rumor.

What is your source for this ridiculous rumor???

Gary

[sanguin]

What is your source for this ridiculous rumor???

Gary

I'll put it in the IRL forum.