Who's using illegal traction control??? [Archive]

MAX_THRUST

16th January 2008, 12:54

Juppe

16th January 2008, 13:11

Predictions for the new season....

Who do you think will accuse who of cheating with traction control first????

My bet will be Renault or Ferrari accused of it.

No matter what systems have been put in place you know someone is going to find a way around it!!!

Well, McLaren is rumoured to have a lot better grip at starts than any other team.

This was put down to their better knowledge of the ECU, which gives them the advantage.

If McLaren continues to have better starts than the other teams, we know that the accusations start to fly very soon...

markabilly

16th January 2008, 13:31

Bagwan

16th January 2008, 14:47

When TC began, it was based on ignition and you could hear it. With the motogp bikes, the TC system is far more advanced, as mere ignition adjustments would only make things worse

I wonder if by controlling fuel delivery via the injectors or even valve timing, one could produce the same results (to prevent excessive or inappropriate wheel spin) as rpms increased

I hear they have a new system , based on the amount of pressure applied to the accelerator pedal by the carbon based , calcium framed , structure attached to the lower appendage of the "soft" billboard that appears on the podium .
Thus , much of the work on faux-TC , is being carried out in taste-testing facilities , and drug company labs , perfecting the perfect formulae for keeping TC un-emotional .
Controlling Koolaid delivery via secondary injectors tied to valve timing would likely also prevent excessive or inappropriate blackmailing as investigations increase .

MAX_THRUST

16th January 2008, 16:14

I know previously Renault had awesome launch system, as both cars would do well at the starts, this could be three to four years ago, I think Trulli was still with them (please don't tell me he wasn't).

I generally think things will kick off again this year. There has to be a way to still get traction control without the help of ECU's, so would a mechanical traction control system be illegal too???

Engineers will be looking for ways around this I'm certain.

cy bais

16th January 2008, 16:39

I reckon Ferrari will but since they're the F in the FIA, they'll get away with it.

:)

16th January 2008, 16:43

I reckon Ferrari will but since they're the F in the FIA, they'll get away with it.
:)

If that is so, why did the FIA award the ECU contract to arch-rivals Mclaren?

Roamy

16th January 2008, 17:56

hands down it will be renault - matter of fact they will prob start the season with it. It will be disguised but it will be there.

markabilly

16th January 2008, 18:31

I hear they have a new system , based on the amount of pressure applied to the accelerator pedal by the carbon based , calcium framed , structure attached to the lower appendage of the "soft" billboard that appears on the podium .

.
Controlling Koolaid delivery via secondary injectors tied to valve timing would likely also prevent excessive or inappropriate blackmailing as investigations increase .
Called the foot...

now kool aid injection direct to the brain would be very effective....

I know previously Renault had awesome launch system, as both cars would do well at the starts, this could be three to four years ago, I think Trulli was still with them (please don't tell me he wasn't).

I generally think things will kick off again this year. There has to be a way to still get traction control without the help of ECU's, so would a mechanical traction control system be illegal too???

Engineers will be looking for ways around this I'm certain.

Yes there was sort of special clutch/launch mechanism ---suppose such a system would also be effective at preventing excessive wheel spin, but would have to toughen up, cause surviing a couple of launches is one thing, a whole race is another

trumperZ06

16th January 2008, 19:50

;) Well... they could simply try to "piggy-back" the ECU but it would be hard to hide.

Teams are likely looking at some form of "torque control" ie. by adjusting the timing on the ignition... it's easy to manipulate electronics but hiding the control unit will take cleverness.

Osella

16th January 2008, 19:56

I am evil Homer

16th January 2008, 20:11

If that is so, why did the FIA award the ECU contract to arch-rivals Mclaren?

Errr...because MES use to be called TAG and they have years of experience and tendered the best deal. Oh no...it's all a conspiracy theory isn't it?!!

trumperZ06

16th January 2008, 20:23

Surely if you're going to do it effectively, you ignore the engine and the standard ECU and concentrate on the differential? That would be the most effective area to gain a grip advantage and limit wheelspin, and I know Ferrari have worked hard on this area in recent years. It wouldn't be a surprise to see Ferrari get much better slow-corner grip thanks to this, rather than obvious TC/TC simulation from the ignition system.. Legal too.

;) Hhmmm... Ferrari offers an electronic controled differential on their latest 430 models. Nissan's new GT-R also has an abundance of electronic gizzmo's to control traction. These Formula 1 guys are clever... so they are probably looking at these & other options as well.

leopard

17th January 2008, 07:31

If that is so, why did the FIA award the ECU contract to arch-rivals Mclaren?
Because McLaren only copied it from Ferrari last year...

oh no, because FIA want to compensate the fine and point annulment imposed to Mclaren last year.

Roamy

17th January 2008, 07:36

well as I am saying TC goes a lot further than just the ecu - Bet on TAD he is the master!!

Alonso 3rd is coming! Flavio the old Coyote it is the right mix!!

17th January 2008, 12:21

Errr...because MES use to be called TAG and they have years of experience and tendered the best deal. Oh no...it's all a conspiracy theory isn't it?!!

That was my point.

There is no Ferrari International Assistance conspiracy, because if there was then MES would never have got the contract.

samuratt

17th January 2008, 14:46

If that is so, why did the FIA award the ECU contract to arch-rivals Mclaren?

Because that option was cheaper! :)

On the subject i do not expect any team cheating this year after what happened to Mclaren last year. But i am sure that at some point during the seasson somebody is going to point his finger to a certain team accusing them of having an illegal TC.

In fact i can see Ferrari pointing at Mclaren and saying they have an illegal TC that was copied from the red cars ;)

Rusty Spanner

18th January 2008, 13:56

Surely if you're going to do it effectively, you ignore the engine and the standard ECU and concentrate on the differential? That would be the most effective area to gain a grip advantage and limit wheelspin, and I know Ferrari have worked hard on this area in recent years. It wouldn't be a surprise to see Ferrari get much better slow-corner grip thanks to this, rather than obvious TC/TC simulation from the ignition system.. Legal too.

The differential falls under te control of the standard ECU so that option is out.

Also the way traction control is defined and banned in the regulations means that there really isn't any loop holes that can be exploited.

9.3 Traction control
No car may be equipped with a system or device which is capable of preventing the driven wheels from
spinning under power or of compensating for excessive throttle demand by the driver.
Any device or system which notifies the driver of the onset of wheel spin is not permitted.

trumperZ06

18th January 2008, 15:47

The differential falls under te control of the standard ECU so that option is out.

Also the way traction control is defined and banned in the regulations means that there really isn't any loop holes that can be exploited.

;) Hhmmm... maybe controling TC devices... "SHOULD BE" enforceable,

but many of us suspect some teams will... "push the envelope"

and one or two, likely will "get caught".

Osella

18th January 2008, 19:15

Exactly, because if you look at the letter of the law, most diffs could be interpreted as breaking that rule... As I can't see F1 cars running live rear axles anytime soon ;) , there will still be some area, perhaps mechanical rather than electronic, to control wheelspin through the differential/gearbox.
I know active diffs are banned too, so obviously that's out ;)

wmcot

18th January 2008, 21:17

hands down it will be renault - matter of fact they will prob start the season with it. It will be disguised but it will be there.

And they will have gotten it from McLaren who got it from Ferrari... ;)

woody2goody

19th January 2008, 18:08

now kool aid injection direct to the brain would be very effective....

OH YEAH!

Bezza

20th January 2008, 13:24

In answer to the thread question,

Ferrari will be using TC.

But they won't get caught of course.

Bagwan

20th January 2008, 15:16

In answer to the thread question,

Ferrari will be using TC.

But they won't get caught of course.
No , Bezza , TC(Tad Cszapski) works at Renault , not Ferrari .

Unless , Of course , you are referring to the upcoming '08 spy scandal . Bernie will not have missed how much the ratings went up , and he'll be preparing one as we speak .
Of course , Renault , having already had thier time "in the sun" , won't likely be the "lucky" one(s) .

"Toyota-gate sounds too clumsy for the press guys but "Beamer-gate" has a nice ring to it . And , for old times sake , they could somehow have Frank Williams drop them in it somehow , to spice it up .

Osella

20th January 2008, 17:34

I think Force India will get caught, but they won't be punished as the Indians will be burning effigies of Max and Bernie in the street.
They will then counter-alledge that Super Aguri and Toro Rosso were actually using it, and threaten to withdraw from the championship if they are punished.

The FIA will then cave in and allow them to participate, and reduce Toro Rosso and Super Aguri to running only one car each. They will also remove the official FIA stewards for each GP and replace them with Indian ones.... :rolleyes:

Bolton Midnight

4th February 2008, 13:12

Errr...because MES use to be called TAG and they have years of experience and tendered the best deal. Oh no...it's all a conspiracy theory isn't it?!!

Must admit I find it very odd that McLaren should be supply the ECUs to the rest of the grid, couldn't the FIA find a true neutral to do the work, say Ford or VW or even someone like BAe.

Trulli at Toyota is already saying one team has TC and the first race hasn't started yet.

maxu05

4th February 2008, 13:36

I don't think it would be too hard to come up with a way to use some sort of traction control. There may be a common ECU, but what is to stop a team from programming it to drop power should the revs rise too quickly, such as if the rear wheels lost traction and started to spin. I think most of the teams will be trying to figure out a loophole/solution to the problem. IMO, it's not how can it be done, but who can do it best and get away with it.

Bolton Midnight

4th February 2008, 14:12

Wonder if Max will swap over ECUs on the grid.

SGWilko

4th February 2008, 15:10

Wonder if Max will swap over ECUs on the grid.

Depends how they are packaged, but I guess there are non programmable? Or am I being incredibly naive?

MAX_THRUST

4th February 2008, 15:21

CART used to have pop off valves for the turbo engines to regulate boost. Even though they were distributed by CART officails at each event, meaning you never got the same one, things still go wrong, they broke down, but they could not be tampered with. I would assume they will have a plastic tag on them that should they be opend officials will know.

However officials are just officails and depend on money as much as the next guy. How much does it take to buy an official????

I'm not saying that is what will go on, that there is always a way around these things. When TC was banned previously teams got around it....

Interesting Trulli has hinted other teams are using it already. My thread has been justified.

Bolton Midnight

4th February 2008, 15:23

Don't the ECUs usually sit on top of the radiators behind the front sidepods, so wouldn't be all that hard to switch them over on the grid.

Pop them all in a wheelbarrow then walk back along the grid tossing them at the mechanics, how very high tech.

Bolton Midnight

4th February 2008, 15:26

CART used to have pop off valves for the turbo engines to regulate boost. Even though they were distributed by CART officails at each event, meaning you never got the same one, things still go wrong, they broke down, but they could not be tampered with. I would assume they will have a plastic tag on them that should they be opend officials will know.

However officials are just officails and depend on money as much as the next guy. How much does it take to buy an official????

I'm not saying that is what will go on, that there is always a way around these things. When TC was banned previously teams got around it....

I've always thought odd that the fuel rigs seem to affect the British teams more than the others, nothing to do with Intertechnique or whatever they are called being French, perish the thought.

mstillhere

4th February 2008, 19:50

In answer to the thread question,

Ferrari will be using TC.

But they won't get caught of course.

In answer to the thread question,

McLAREN will be using TC.

And they WILL get caught of course :)

fisherman 762.2007

4th February 2008, 20:38

It does not matter who else cheats or otherwise..Renault now have Alonso who has all of Ferrari secrets and Renault have all of McClaren secrets.

Bolton Midnight

4th February 2008, 23:32

Anybody want Spyker's secrets?

wmcot

5th February 2008, 06:19

Anybody want Spyker's secrets?

I think Spyker sold the team when they realized they didn't have any secrets! :)

LeonBrooke

5th February 2008, 23:42

Pop them all in a wheelbarrow then walk back along the grid tossing them at the mechanics...

I think that's a very good idea.

wmcot

6th February 2008, 20:02

In answer to the thread question,

McLAREN will be using TC.

And they WILL get caught of course :)

And RD will deny that anyone in the team knew about it until emails and text messages come forth! :)

samuratt

8th February 2008, 11:40

And RD will deny that anyone in the team knew about it until emails and text messages come forth! :)

And they will find a way to make Fernando look guilty out of this! :)

WSRfan82

9th February 2008, 23:05

ferrari will start accusations on mclaren saying something about the ecu

wmcot

10th February 2008, 07:54

ferrari will start accusations on mclaren saying something about the ecu

Maybe McLaren have instructed that traction control software be built into all ECU's and only they know how to switch it off making all other teams illegal! Brilliant plan to guarantee the WDC and WCC! :)

ArrowsFA1

27th February 2008, 14:44

An interesting comment (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65331) from Colin Kolles:

Q. Is the new car looking good?
Colin Kolles: Well, definitely better. The reality will be Melbourne. I think eighth and ninth is a bit too optimistic, but we are driving a legal car and there is nothing hocus-pocus. It might be the case that we might be in front of some other teams
Does he mean there are illegal cars out there :confused:

93VTEC

27th February 2008, 15:05

We should have a poll.

Who will be the first team to get caught using illegal _____ insert technology here. Guaranteed someone will have an illegal part in Melbourne. Somehow teams that use it in Melbourne always get away with it. Oh sorry OK we won't use it after the Malaysia. Thanx for the free illegal points.

Tazio

27th February 2008, 15:12

An interesting comment (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65331) from Colin Kolles:

Does he mean there are illegal cars out there :confused:
This is a reference to TR, and SA customer cars!

Tazio

27th February 2008, 15:14