Grand Prix or Le Mans? [Archive]

Malbec

12th January 2008, 15:23

Grand Prix does it for me, though Le Mans is by no means a bad film.

Apparently Steve McQueen was supposed to play the part that eventually went to James Garner in Grand Prix but he bowed out because he wanted to do Le Mans instead.

SEATFreak

12th January 2008, 16:45

Le Mans for me. Mainly because atleast I have seen it. I don't think I have seen Grand Prix. If I have it has been a long long time. But also because the Ferrari 512 is such an important car for me in Ferraris motor-racing history.

Incidentally both films have one thing in common in the production that you just won't notice seeing the film. Would anyone care to think of an answer?

Also, why was it such a bad idea in the end for Steve McQueen to do Le Man? Would anyone care to think of an answer to that one? It is an easy question.

Malbec

12th January 2008, 17:52

Also, why was it such a bad idea in the end for Steve McQueen to do Le Man? Would anyone care to think of an answer to that one? It is an easy question.

Asbestos exposure from the fire-retardant overalls he was wearing lead to his dying of lung cancer, but that wasn't just from filming Le Mans, he did a lot of other racing off-screen too.

AndyRAC

12th January 2008, 18:36

What a tough choice! It's like having to choose between Scarlett Johansson or Jessica Alba.
Both fantastic films, I'd say they were the 2 best sporting films made. If I had to really had to choose, er, .......Le Mans, only just!!

SEATFreak

12th January 2008, 18:44

Asbestos exposure from the fire-retardant overalls he was wearing lead to his dying of lung cancer, but that wasn't just from filming Le Mans, he did a lot of other racing off-screen too.

No. Though thankfully the real outcome seems a lesser of two evils when compared to asbestos related lung cancer.

Shall I tell you all or shall I allow more time for people to come in?

MrJan

12th January 2008, 19:25

Malbec

13th January 2008, 00:33

Shall I tell you all or shall I allow more time for people to come in?

Well I haven't a clue what it might be then!

Daniel

13th January 2008, 01:50

SEATFreak

13th January 2008, 12:16

Well I haven't a clue what it might be then!

Trust me. I have felt as you do on many many many ocassions. Not nice feeling is t having the weight of expectation on your shoulder.

In answer to the first about the connection between the two movies cars depicted were actually something else.

In Le Mans the crashing Porsche 917 and Ferrari 512 were actually Lola T70's and in Grand Prix the F1 cars were actually F3 cars. Though footage of real F1 cars were used.

The second answer is Le Mans put it's star Steve McQueen into debt.

Erki

13th January 2008, 20:44

Eh, Le Mans not a bad film? It's shocking, absolutely awful. There seems to be no particular plot and a large number of shots where the camera zooms in on someones eyes.

That said it does have one very large redeeming feature. The soundtrack is possibly the best I have ever heard. beautiful film to listen to and for that reason I've got to vote for it.

Le Mans is the best film ever. I will personally come over and rip out your tongue, should you have the guts to express a different opinion.

Okay?

:bandit:

And the asbestos thing had nothing or very very little to do with racing - that was because before acting, he was working on a job thats particular titl currently escapes my memory(had something to do with ships though, if I recall correctly), where he was exposed to asbestos a lot.

Erki

13th January 2008, 20:47

What a tough choice! It's like having to choose between Scarlett Johansson or Jessica Alba.

You mean that you wouldn't choose either? :)

Malbec

13th January 2008, 21:09

And the asbestos thing had nothing or very very little to do with racing - that was because before acting, he was working on a job thats particular titl currently escapes my memory(had something to do with ships though, if I recall correctly), where he was exposed to asbestos a lot.

I've had a little look into this. There's a myth that he was a ship construction worker exposed to asbestos when he was young, but if he ever worked on ships he didn't work long enough for the exposure to be serious.

Given the age at which he died the asbestos exposure could have come from his racing career with the flame proofing in the suits being from asbestos or from his time in the US marines, though the latter would depend a lot on what his role was. If he was just a plain grunt he wouldn't have been exposed to much.

tmx

14th January 2008, 07:04

Depend on how you look at it. As a film, GranPrix is better. But what I wanted to see is the racing, and most of GranPrix were really long and boring talks. Now Lemans is nearly nonstop racing (although really random beside the end), the plot is less interpersonal, but what's happening within the mind of the racer. I do have to admit the camera works for the Granpix were done better than Lemans. I would see Lemans more as a documentary for that era.

I'm also bias by the fact that I love the Porsche histories, nowaday I puke at anything they are putting out. There are alot of interesting stories around the 917 development also, and some great drivers like Jo Siffert and Pedro Rodrigrez dying at young age that time, Mark Donohue. I do think 911s could have made great rally cars.

Funny story, with my brother, he made fun of me for liking Porsche. And one time I shown him the movie and he said "These cars are crap (refering to the crashes), let them have a Mercedes and it'll run 10years without problems."

Anyway, I prefer watching On Any Sunday over these.

jim mcglinchey

14th January 2008, 08:35

I've had a little look into this. There's a myth that he was a ship construction worker exposed to asbestos when he was young, but if he ever worked on ships he didn't work long enough for the exposure to be serious.

Given the age at which he died the asbestos exposure could have come from his racing career with the flame proofing in the suits being from asbestos or from his time in the US marines, though the latter would depend a lot on what his role was. If he was just a plain grunt he wouldn't have been exposed to much.

A programme one night said that he developed mesothelioma from his days in the marines when he serviced the trucks. Part of the work included blowing out the brake drums with an air line, which, as Daniel said, exposed him to a lot of asbestos.

MrJan

14th January 2008, 10:35

Le Mans is the best film ever. I will personally come over and rip out your tongue, should you have the guts to express a different opinion.

I do have the guts :D As a film film, that is to say in terms of plot and direction Le Mans is awful. As a car persons film it's great. All I'm saying is that if you show that film to someone who doesn't like cars then they'll pick hundreds of holes in it and most likely won't enjoy it. I however had great fun watching it :D

wedge

14th January 2008, 12:05

Depend on how you look at it. As a film, GranPrix is better. But what I wanted to see is the racing, and most of GranPrix were really long and boring talks. Now Lemans is nearly nonstop racing (although really random beside the end), the plot is less interpersonal, but what's happening within the mind of the racer. I do have to admit the camera works for the Granpix were done better than Lemans. I would see Lemans more as a documentary for that era.

I would completely agree with that.

I do have the guts :D As a film film, that is to say in terms of plot and direction Le Mans is awful. As a car persons film it's great. All I'm saying is that if you show that film to someone who doesn't like cars then they'll pick hundreds of holes in it and most likely won't enjoy it. I however had great fun watching it :D

I wouldn't say the plot is awful. It's very subtle. The main story is the race itself ie. Porsche vs. Ferrari. The main character McQueen plays returns to Le Mans after causing the death of a fellow competitor and seeks some form closure/redemption when he meets the widow in between driving stints and in the end gets a smiling approval in the end.

Also, it has the best ending that doesn't pander to cliches.

MrJan

14th January 2008, 13:29

It's hardly The Godfather though is it?

Erki

14th January 2008, 15:17

Ohhh god, it's been a while since I've watched Le Mans. I have to do it again! I'll be back soon! :)

SEATFreak

14th January 2008, 17:11

It's hardly The Godfather though is it?

I don't see how it makes a difference unless it is a sequel or indeed any in a series of movies.

Take Superman I and Superman III for instance. The first was a top notch film in my view. But the third was, even though it was the 5th grossing movie of 1983, a financial flop, when you think it made close to $60m but 1 and 2 made $100m each, and also a critical flop as you had a comedian in Richard Pryor who it was felt overshadowed the plot and a poor stand in for Lex Luthor in Robert Vaughan's Ross Webster.

But Le Mans and The Godfather is as different as the proverbial chalk and cheese. Le Mans needs to be taken on it's own merit and not criticised because it doesn't live up to the standards set by a completely different film.

Here are some YouTube clips I thought Le Mans fans might like to see.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=le+mans+steve+mcqueen&search=Search

bblocker68

14th January 2008, 17:37

I'll take Jessica Alba and Grand Prix (for now). Grand Prix was re-transferred recently and looks the best on my monitor. I also have always been in love with the mutli-camera splits on the screen.............and it sounds great in 5.1!!!!!! The latest version has almost no film dirt and the color is beauthiful.

As far as content goes, it's comparing apples to oranges. I love them both in their own way and I couldn't pick one over the other. I choose which one to watch depending what mood I'm in.

tsarcasm

15th January 2008, 08:08

While I own and enjoy both films (on orig. vhs....) McQueens acting can be best described as WOODEN! The camera just looks at him as he stairs at the ground, eh' The sound of a 917 is fantastic though!

Grand Prix actually has a cast of characters and a plot, well more of a plot anyhow add some Ferrari sounds this time :)

AndyRAC

15th January 2008, 09:16

Yet, unbelievably, in both films Ferrari lose. How was that allowed to happen? Porsche, Yamura must have attained their data, he he!!

wedge

15th January 2008, 12:46

While I own and enjoy both films (on orig. vhs....) McQueens acting can be best described as WOODEN! The camera just looks at him as he stairs at the ground, eh'

Some say action speaks louder than words and there are actors who are very good at communicating via facial expressions and show their intensity in their eyes - Pacino and De Niro being prime examples. In Godfather, when Pacino is about to do his first kill on the police chief you see his eyes moving around as he furiously contemplates and suddenly goes for the kill.

At the beginning of Le Mans you see McQueen staring down into the Porsche Curves (???) and you can see in the eyes that that section of track still haunts him.

Off topic, I love the onboard shots in the WRC. There are drivers with eyes wide open as they concentrate and you have guys like Carlos Sainz who look like they having a Sunday drive!

MrJan

15th January 2008, 13:34

But Le Mans and The Godfather is as different as the proverbial chalk and cheese. Le Mans needs to be taken on it's own merit and not criticised because it doesn't live up to the standards set by a completely different film.

Just saying it's not one of those films that people say is good, unless you like cars. If you show that to most people they won't like it because, as a film, it's just not very good. Seems like I'm on my own with that opinion but I think you lot are blinded by automative excellence.

SEATFreak

15th January 2008, 13:59

I think you lot are blinded by automative excellence.

How do you mean "automotive excellence"? I am not blinded by "automotive excellence" if you mean it is ideally for petrolheads. I wouldn't know a crankcase if it hit me over the head with a 20 year old mackrel. If you were to ask me to specify where the crankcase is I would have said it sounds like it is found in the local loony bin.

I just hate saying anything bad about anyone or anything without appropriate cause to.

Mark

15th January 2008, 14:07

How do you mean "automotive excellence"? I am not blinded by "automotive excellence" if you mean it is ideally for petrolheads. I wouldn't know a crankcase if it hit me over the head with a 20 year old mackrel. If you were to ask me to specify where the crankcase is I would have said it sounds like it is found in the local loony bin.

I just hate saying anything bad about anyone or anything without appropriate cause to.

Or you could just quit posting nonsense such as the above ;)

SEATFreak

15th January 2008, 16:43

Could do. But not just yet. ;)

Problem is I am having too much fun making light of stuff that is too advanced for me. It is a coping tactic that helps me overcome my total sense of total inadequacy and uselessness. if one makes light of it maybe one won't seem so small and insignificant to it.

Maybe when Fiona Legatte becomes BTCC Champion.

MrJan

15th January 2008, 17:18

[quote="SEATFreak"]you were to ask me to specify where the crankcase is I would have said it sounds like it is found in the local loony bin.
QUOTE]

Round the crank isn't it?

I'm just the same as you for most technical parts. What I mean is that as someone who likes cars (I assume seeing as everyone posting here is on a motorsports forum that tthey like cars) we find it more interesting. I just think that most of my mates would say that Le Mans was not a very good film. I on the other hand think it's great because I like cars.

That's the last I'll say on the subject because I'm sure most people were bored with it several posts ago, but you're all wrong :p : :D

Erki

17th January 2008, 16:37

Off topic, I love the onboard shots in the WRC. There are drivers with eyes wide open as they concentrate and you have guys like Carlos Sainz who look like they having a Sunday drive!

I always liked how Colin McRae drove - totally, I mean TOTALLY relaxed, no tension at all. And that while driving through forests, sideways, 100 miles an hour. :burnout:

ShiftingGears

18th January 2008, 04:36

Steve McQueen wanted the Le Mans movie to be primarily about the race, with the plot secondary. He was also only a few seconds off Revson in practice, while he had a fractured ankle!

Erki

18th January 2008, 08:49

As the saying goes: Formula 1 is for boys, sportscars is for men. :s mokin:

Nuff said. :s mokin:

Malbec

22nd January 2008, 20:54

Yet, unbelievably, in both films Ferrari lose. How was that allowed to happen?

I couldn't believe how Ferrari gave the Grand Prix film crew unprecedented access to their factory yet the film portrays them to be extremely cynical and political with their Machiavellian antics finally resulting in the death of one of the central characters.

I guess they hadn't read the plot before letting them in!

AndyRAC

23rd January 2008, 12:37

I couldn't believe how Ferrari gave the Grand Prix film crew unprecedented access to their factory yet the film portrays them to be extremely cynical and political with their Machiavellian antics finally resulting in the death of one of the central characters.

I guess they hadn't read the plot before letting them in!

Mmm, art imitating life perhaps????

Surely not.....

.....Ferrari???

SEATFreak

23rd January 2008, 16:58

I couldn't believe how Ferrari gave the Grand Prix film crew unprecedented access to their factory..

And to do what in the factory? I mentioned BOTH the Ferraris and Porches were Lola T70's with just the shell of a 917 or a 512 over it.

In fact if you go into the Imdb.com Le Man forum topic called "Are these real race cars or mock ups?" one member states

"You can see the bodywork come off and the yellow of the Lola shows, even it's number roundel (#11). This car can be briefly seen in another part of the movie.

But another says a bit later on

All of the 917's in the film are actual 917's as are the Ferrari 512's but the older Lola's were made to look like 917's or Ferrari 512's and were used for the crash scenes.

So could what they achieved not be achieved by not needing to go to the Ferrari factory?

Malbec

23rd January 2008, 19:43

And to do what in the factory? I mentioned BOTH the Ferraris and Porches were Lola T70's with just the shell of a 917 or a 512 over it.

So could what they achieved not be achieved by not needing to go to the Ferrari factory?

You're talking about the wrong film. I didn't mention Le Mans, I mentioned Grand Prix.

You'll recall the scenes where James Garner is looking for a new drive and takes a chance going back to Maranello. He wanders around the Ferrari factory amongst real Ferraris being finished by the workers. That kind of access was allowed when the crew sent Enzo some of the early race shots they'd taken and he liked what he saw.