Bunsen will be champion [Archive]

gloomyDAY

26th December 2007, 01:05

Valve Bounce

26th December 2007, 03:28

Well, I for one won't be holding my breath until bunsen wins another race, let alone the championshop. :eek:

SGWilko

26th December 2007, 21:00

Personally, I think DC has a better chance of winning the championship; they both have two chances: Slim and Fat.

Two hopes, Bob and no. :laugh:

Sleeper

26th December 2007, 23:00

I think you guys read too much into what Fry said.

He's just stating Honda's potential. I think they have all the resources to become World Champions, but not the leadership nor the drivers.

Cut Honda some slack people. Let them dream a little over the break. Reality is a cold heartless bitch, and it's just waiting to slap them in March.
They didnt actually say they would win next years title, infact many in the team have stated that they have no chance of it next year, but after that, who knows?

wmcot

26th December 2007, 23:41

It seems to be quite a load Honda is heaping on Ross's shoulders if they expect him to build a winning team by himself!

Valve Bounce

27th December 2007, 00:17

They didnt actually say they would win next years title, infact many in the team have stated that they have no chance of it next year, but after that, who knows?

OK!! good point. I don't think bunsen will win the title by year 2020. So that sets my point pretty clear. By then, he might just win a couple of races if a Tsunami hits during the first lap and washed away the front half of the grid.

Bezza

27th December 2007, 00:41

In my opinion only Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen are better drivers than Button - and Button has never been in a truly great car - so it is difficult to quantify his potential.

If he gets a chance at a decent car and fluffs it, then we know he's not all he's cracked up to be - but until he gets that chance, we just don't know!

ioan

27th December 2007, 00:56

... - and Button has never been in a truly great car - ...

He might not deserve that chance. Why should one of the top teams waste their chance with him? He ain't no winner.

Ranger

27th December 2007, 01:23

He might not deserve that chance. Why should one of the top teams waste their chance with him? He ain't no winner.

Let's see... From 2002 onwards he has beaten every team-mate he has had, including that 37-1 drubbing of Sato in 2005, outpointing Trulli and Barrichello (twice), and pretty much being the beginning of the end for Villeneuve.

In all the teams he has been in, he has been the only driver to score a win during those seasons. IMO he's better than someone like Felipe Massa who was given a chance with a top team despite similar or (imo) lesser prior credentials, and considering Button is only 27 now then he's still got a long way to go before he reaches retirement age.

ioan

27th December 2007, 01:39

Let's see... From 2002 onwards he has beaten every team-mate he has had, including that 37-1 drubbing of Sato in 2005, outpointing Trulli and Barrichello (twice), and pretty much being the beginning of the end for Villeneuve.

In all the teams he has been in, he has been the only driver to score a win during those seasons.

None of the above warrant him a drive in a top team (BTW he was in a top team in 2004 but didn't look like being able to win).
Or maybe all the drivers who beat their team mates should be given a drive by Ferrari? :rolleyes:

IMO he's better than someone like Felipe Massa who was given a chance with a top team despite similar or (imo) lesser prior credentials, and considering Button is only 27 now then he's still got a long way to go before he reaches retirement age.

Now we know why you aren't a F1 team manager.
Next you will tell us that Bunsen would have beaten Kimi to the title. :rolleyes:

Valve Bounce

27th December 2007, 01:58

Let's see... From 2002 onwards he has beaten every team-mate he has had, including that 37-1 drubbing of Sato in 2005, .

We're reaching desperation here, aren't we?? :rolleyes:
Sato wasn't scoring at all that year, and the more he tried, literally, the worse things became. Sato started to try things doing quals and races that he never tried during testing and practice - and that just about ended his career.

Since then Sato has put his head down and he has done a helluva lot better, including doing better than bunsen while driving a second hand Honda this year. If Honda hadn't hobbled Super Aguri's development/parts this year, Sato would have creamed bunsen. And I was not a great fan of Sato when he was doing stupid things at Honda.

I don't think bunsen is as good a driver as Nick nor Rosberg, nor Massa, so it is all a matter of opinion. But then, I do appreciate that Poms tend to think bunsen is better than he really is.

Ranger

27th December 2007, 02:05

None of the above warrant him a drive in a top team (BTW he was in a top team in 2004 but didn't look like being able to win).
Or maybe all the drivers who beat their team mates should be given a drive by Ferrari? :rolleyes:
Top teams wouldn't be wasting their chance with Button is what I meant, because he was the teams' highest scorer for those years 6 that I mentioned (against some pretty decent drivers).
I do think he would've been a better choice than someone who was selected for the team at least partly because his manager was the bosses' son.

Now we know why you aren't a F1 team manager.
Yes, yes I know. It's because you disagree with me! :rolleyes:

There is no doubt that you'd be much better.

Next you will tell us that Bunsen would have beaten Kimi to the title. :rolleyes:

No, but I do think Button is better than Massa, if that's what you were inferring.

Ranger

27th December 2007, 02:13

We're reaching desperation here, aren't we?? :rolleyes:
Sato wasn't scoring at all that year, and the more he tried, literally, the worse things became. Sato started to try things doing quals and races that he never tried during testing and practice - and that just about ended his career.
In other words, he sucked that year (I never said he didn't), and statistics prove it.

Since then Sato has put his head down and he has done a helluva lot better, including doing better than bunsen while driving a second hand Honda this year. If Honda hadn't hobbled Super Aguri's development/parts this year, Sato would have creamed bunsen. And I was not a great fan of Sato when he was doing stupid things at Honda.
Ok, you like Sato. But Button also beat him in exactly the same equipment in 2004 when Sato wasn't so kamikaze. I would also like to know where the once highly rated Barrichello fits into your picture, considering he was kept pointless by Button! :p :

I don't think bunsen is as good a driver as Nick nor Rosberg, nor Massa, so it is all a matter of opinion. But then, I do appreciate that Poms tend to think bunsen is better than he really is.
Yes, it is a matter of opinion. :up:
No, I'm not British. :mad: :D

Valve Bounce

27th December 2007, 03:16

Ok, you like Sato. . :mad: :D

Nevre said I did - but I do regard his efforts fairly - and he performed a helluva lot better than bunsen this year in his second hand Honda, which Team Honda tried to stifle.

Ranger

27th December 2007, 09:48

Nevre said I did - but I do regard his efforts fairly - and he performed a helluva lot better than bunsen this year in his second hand Honda, which Team Honda tried to stifle.
Because said second-hand-Honda was a race winner. This year's car was not... This is a futile argument because Button still scored more points this year!

leopard

27th December 2007, 09:56

Honda has something to back up their optimism for 2008 considering they have Ross Brawn that has previously empowered Redbull, logically Button has bigger chance than any Redbull drivers. ;)

Valve Bounce

27th December 2007, 10:44

Because said second-hand-Honda was a race winner. This year's car was not... This is a futile argument because Button still scored more points this year!

Only after Team Honda refused to permit Super Aguri to use the wing which Super Aguri had tested and found was an improvement.
Also, Team Honda has more than ten times the personnel and resources that Super Aguri had.
I am not saying that Sato is a better driver, but if bunsen had that much trouble beating Sato in the second hand Honda, he ain't that bloody good himself.

Valve Bounce

27th December 2007, 10:46

Honda has something to back up their optimism for 2008 considering they have Ross Brawn that has previously empowered Redbull, logically Button has bigger chance than any Redbull drivers. ;)

Better quit your smoking - I think you have your brains all frazzled. If not, tell me when Ross Brawn ever empowered Red Bull.

Ranger

27th December 2007, 11:14

I am not saying that Sato is a better driver, but if bunsen had that much trouble beating Sato in the second hand Honda, he ain't that bloody good himself.

But you're still making your assertion on Button based on another driver in another team! :confused:
Button beat Sato twice in the same car in the same team. TWICE. How does that not speak to you clearly about the issue?? :confused:

And still, nobody has told me where Barrichello fits into all of this. If he's been beaten by Jenson "ain't that bloody good" Button (twice), then what description can we apply about his abilities?? :confused:

ioan

27th December 2007, 16:27

No, but I do think Button is better than Massa, if that's what you were inferring.

Stupid supposition based on nothing but bias! :rolleyes:

Since you think that Bunsen is that good because he beat JV while driving the same car do you remember who was Felipe's team mate in 2005 at Sauber, and also whom was the better Sauber driver that year?!

So Button did beat JV at Honda, and Felipe beat JV at Sauber.
Why do you believe then that Button better than Felipe?!

ioan

27th December 2007, 16:34

And still, nobody has told me where Barrichello fits into all of this. If he's been beaten by Jenson "ain't that bloody good" Button (twice), then what description can we apply about his abilities?? :confused:

As I said it must be difficult to support a lousy driver.
All you got is that he did beat some midfielders or some past their prime drivers.
And he had the chance to win a race after 100+ race starts! Now that's an achievement that makes him a title contender, right?!

PS: Almost forgot to mention that he is the champ at jumping ship several times in a few months! This should help those that support him! :D

BDunnell

27th December 2007, 17:40

Stupid supposition based on nothing but bias! :rolleyes:

:laugh:

Tazio

27th December 2007, 18:11

You put Button in a Ferrari, and he would be an instant contender.
The reason I say that is he is smooth. He could probably jump into the car,
and learn on a sharp curve. Something that RB has trouble with. In fact I'm going to suggest he could get comfortable in it faster even than Kimi did, maybe. RB did great in the Ferrari, because the car was so much faster than the rest of the field when he first went there. I'm not suggesting that JB's best would be faster than Kimi's, or even Felipe's. But it might!

Valve Bounce

27th December 2007, 19:26

But you're still making your assertion on Button based on another driver in another team! :confused:
Button beat Sato twice in the same car in the same team. TWICE. How does that not speak to you clearly about the issue?? :confused:

And still, nobody has told me where Barrichello fits into all of this. If he's been beaten by Jenson "ain't that bloody good" Button (twice), then what description can we apply about his abilities?? :confused:

..........and ant lapped Monza in that same car within .2 seconds of SchM's outright record. So how good does that make him?

If Bunsen wins the WDC, I swear I'll jump into Albert Park Lake fully clothed.

markabilly

27th December 2007, 20:34

Another endless debate where no one can win. The only way would be to put him in a ferrari and let him lose or win, but that ain't likely.

So maybe next year bunsen finishes second or third in a race or two.....so

ShiftingGears

27th December 2007, 21:33

..........and ant lapped Monza in that same car within .2 seconds of SchM's outright record.

Too bad he can't be fast when it counts.

Valve Bounce

27th December 2007, 23:09

Too bad he can't be fast when it counts.

While driving a Super Aguri with competitors ramming into him and being attacked by ground hogs, ................yeah!! too bad :(

At least he out qualified his team mate during the year, so that is one positive :(

leopard

28th December 2007, 02:56

Better quit your smoking - I think you have your brains all frazzled. If not, tell me when Ross Brawn ever empowered Red Bull.
Where did he work before joining Honda, would this mean his new team better than the previous one? :)

btw glad you noticed it.

Valve Bounce

28th December 2007, 04:25

Where did he work before joining Honda, would this mean his new team better than the previous one? :)

btw glad you noticed it.

The word empower : authorize, license, give power to a person to do something, (as in a boss giving his right hand man to sign cheques) and so on. Ross Brawn had nothing to do with Team Red Bull. He sure as hell didn't work for Red Bull.

By the way, your quoted post doesn't even make any sense.

Ranger

28th December 2007, 05:17

Stupid supposition based on nothing but bias! :rolleyes: Good one! :laugh:

You really shouldn't use the word bias when establishing an argument. It's a useless addition to any argument considering EVERYBODY has a prior opinion based on something. Even you.

I'd like to point out that I didn't say Button would wipe the floor with Felipe. I just think he is better.

Since you think that Bunsen is that good because he beat JV while driving the same car do you remember who was Felipe's team mate in 2005 at Sauber, and also whom was the better Sauber driver that year?!
Felipe Massa. (I'm not that silly)

So Button did beat JV at Honda, and Felipe beat JV at Sauber.
Why do you believe then that Button better than Felipe?!

I just think Button is better. He is much less ragged and much better than Felipe in the wet IMO, he also beat JV in his first year in BAR by a greater margin in a team JV had been part of for 5 years.

As I said it must be difficult to support a lousy driver.
I don't really support him, I just think he is better than some of the comments here say he is.

Considering his acheivements against JV were somewhat similar to Massa's, doesn't that mean Massa is only equally as good as what can be described as "Lousy"??

All you got is that he did beat some midfielders or some past their prime drivers.
That's all that Massa did. Except he only did so once. So I don't think Button would be a wasted chance for a team (like you originally said).

leopard

28th December 2007, 06:06

The word empower : authorize, license, give power to a person to do something, (as in a boss giving his right hand man to sign cheques) and so on. Ross Brawn had nothing to do with Team Red Bull. He sure as hell didn't work for Red Bull.

By the way, your quoted post doesn't even make any sense.
Do I have to say that Button has better chance than Ferrari drivers? You may be rest assured that 99% people will say nehi.

I don't think that I am alone that rate Button is better than any Redbull drivers, and it's quite a sense. ;)

Valve Bounce

28th December 2007, 08:00

Do I have to say that Button has better chance than Ferrari drivers? You may be rest assured that 99% people will say nehi.

I don't think that I am alone that rate Button is better than any Redbull drivers, and it's quite a sense. ;)

I have completely failed to follow your line of reasoning of Ross Brawn via Red Bull to Honda's driver bunsen, and now it seems it even involves Red Bull's drivers.

I therefore can only tell you: whatever you say. I give up on trying to get any sense out of your posts. I surrender. :(

ioan

28th December 2007, 18:12

Good one! :laugh:

You really shouldn't use the word bias when establishing an argument. It's a useless addition to any argument considering EVERYBODY has a prior opinion based on something. Even you.

Now you are giving lessons about what one should post?
Stick to supporting your POV about how Ferrari employed Massa because the son of JT is his manager. :rolleyes:

I'd like to point out that I didn't say Button would wipe the floor with Felipe. I just think he is better.

For now, since he came into F1 the only teams interested about Button were Williams and Honda, and Williams will never think about having a relationship with him after his contract antics.

McLaren had an available seat for next season and preferred to go for Kovalainen, and were even considering PDLR, but didn't bother about Button. I wonder why is that?!

janneppi

28th December 2007, 22:07

McLaren had an available seat for next season and preferred to go for Kovalainen, and were even considering PDLR, but didn't bother about Button. I wonder why is that?!
Could it possibly have anything to do with Button having a contract with Honda for 2008 and Heikki not having a contract with an F1 team? ;)

yodasarmpit

28th December 2007, 22:28

Good one! :laugh:

You really shouldn't use the word bias when establishing an argument. It's a useless addition to any argument considering EVERYBODY has a prior opinion based on something. Even you.

I'd like to point out that I didn't say Button would wipe the floor with Felipe. I just think he is better.

Felipe Massa. (I'm not that silly)

I just think Button is better. He is much less ragged and much better than Felipe in the wet IMO, he also beat JV in his first year in BAR by a greater margin in a team JV had been part of for 5 years.

I don't really support him, I just think he is better than some of the comments here say he is.

Considering his acheivements against JV were somewhat similar to Massa's, doesn't that mean Massa is only equally as good as what can be described as "Lousy"??

That's all that Massa did. Except he only did so once. So I don't think Button would be a wasted chance for a team (like you originally said).
Stop quoting ioan, I have him on my ignore list for a reason :D

And as for Button, he won't be winning any WDC this year, he is undoubtedly a talented driver, but he won't be in a WDC capable car, yet.

Ranger

28th December 2007, 22:35

Now you are giving lessons about what one should post?
Because accusations of bias aren't really worth rebutting to IMO. But I'll leave that there.

Stick to supporting your POV about how Ferrari employed Massa because the son of JT is his manager. :rolleyes:
You're putting words in my mouth. I said it was partly due to that, in reference to your opinion that Button was less deserving of a top drive than Massa. To say it was the only reason he was hired for Ferrari is just stupid. In my opinion Button no less deserving of a top drive than Massa, which is what this argument is about.

For now, since he came into F1 the only teams interested about Button were Williams and Honda, and Williams will never think about having a relationship with him after his contract antics.
That's probably true. Don't have anything to do with his talent though.

McLaren had an available seat for next season and preferred to go for Kovalainen, and were even considering PDLR, but didn't bother about Button. I wonder why is that?!
Because they didn't want to get in a contract dispute, as Button was signed for 2008. Kovalainen was not.

Valve Bounce

28th December 2007, 23:17

Because they didn't want to get in a contract dispute, as Button was signed for 2008. Kovalainen was not.

So?????????????? and how would that stop bunsen from jumping ship???????????? :rolleyes:

Ranger

29th December 2007, 04:04

So?????????????? and how would that stop bunsen from jumping ship???????????? :rolleyes:

Put it this way... Why would McLaren want to bring another legal dispute to their door after this season??

Valve Bounce

29th December 2007, 04:47

Put it this way... Why would McLaren want to bring another legal dispute to their door after this season??
Good point - I didn't think of it from that direction. :(

millencolin

29th December 2007, 09:00

Honda should shut up and make a good car. Every year they state how car will beat the whole grid, raise expectations but they fail to deliver.

Garry Walker

29th December 2007, 09:42

..........and ant lapped Monza in that same car within .2 seconds of SchM's outright record. So how good does that make him?

Because testing times really show it :rotflmao:

I just think Button is better. He is much less ragged and much better than Felipe in the wet IMO, he also beat JV in his first year in BAR by a greater margin in a team JV had been part of for 5 years. JV beat himself in 2003, his driving level and motivation (due to the relationship with Richards probably) was really bad that year.

Ranger

29th December 2007, 10:27

JV beat himself in 2003, his driving level and motivation (due to the relationship with Richards probably) was really bad that year.
True, but statistics don't say that.

Honda should shut up and make a good car. Every year they state how car will beat the whole grid, raise expectations but they fail to deliver.
I agree. Not only might they make a better car with their mouths shut, they'll provide less bait for cynics.