Israel refuses peace negotiations

[Eki]

They want Hamas to fullfil some "pre-conditions" before any talks. In my opinion, negotiations should always be without any pre-conditions and no strings attached. As far as I know, the purpose of negotiations is to agree on any conditions, pre or after.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,318016,00.html


Olmert Calls Gaza Campaign 'True War'

Sunday, December 23, 2007

AP

JERUSALEM — Prime Minister Ehud Olmert on Sunday ruled out cease-fire talks with the Gaza Strip's Islamic Hamas rulers, vowing to press ahead with a "true war" against Palestinian militants who attack southern Israeli communities with rocket and mortar fire.

Meanwhile, a Cabinet minister confirmed that Israel has yet another plan to build hundreds of apartments in disputed east Jerusalem and the West Bank — touching off a new crisis in fledgling peace talks between Israel and the moderate, West Bank-based government of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

The Israeli military has struck hard in recent weeks against Hamas and other armed groups in Gaza. With troops appearing to make substantial gains, Olmert told his Cabinet there were no plans to slow down.

"Operations against terrorists will continue as they have been conducted for many months," Olmert said. "There is no other way to describe what is happening in the Gaza Strip except as a true war between the Israeli army and terror groups."

He said Israel would continue to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza to protect the area's civilians.

Israel sealed its borders with Gaza immediately after Hamas violently wrested control of the territory in June. Israel, which considers Hamas a terrorist group, has cut off most trade and reduced fuel shipments to the area.

Under heavy pressure from Israel's military gains and the economic embargo, Hamas has signaled readiness in recent days for a cease-fire. Several Israeli Cabinet ministers have said the government should consider the offer.

But Olmert told his Cabinet there would be no cease-fire until Hamas renounced violence and recognized Israel's right to exist — conditions set by the "Quartet" of international peace makers. "This policy will not change," he said.

The "Quartet" consists of the U.S., the European Union, the United Nations and Russia.

[Jag_Warrior]

Man, I hope that last check from the U.S. Treasury didn't bounce.

Things are a little tight just now in the ol' U.S. of A.: mortgage meltdown, Christmas right around the corner, declining manufacturing base. Wonder if they accept credit cards?

[Daniel]

Israel doesn't want peace on anyone elses terms. Fact.

[Eki]

Israel doesn't want peace on anyone elses terms. Fact.
That means there's no point for anyone else to negotiate with Israel but to continue terrorism or what ever they're doing. Fact.

The purpose of negotiations is to compromise and reach an agreement both parties can accept.

[Malbec]

Actually on this issue Israel is right.

Hamas can get away with making ridiculous claims like being committed to reclaiming all of Israel for the Palestinians through war if they remain a fringe armed faction but they're not. They were voted into power in the Occupied Territories and therefore represent the Palestinians not only in talks with the Israelis but with the rest of the world.

Its about time they grew up and recognised the state of Israel if they want to be taken seriously. Until they do they should rightfully be ignored by other parties.

The thing is that Hamas will be re-elected time and time again by the Palestinians. Not because they're committed to wiping Israel off the map but because they do a fantastic job in delivering local services that people really care about, garbage removal, clean water, electricity and education. They're also markedly less corrupt than the Fatah officials who have used US/EU money mainly to improve the size of their own bank accounts.

We need to get used to dealing with Hamas unless Fatah totally cleans up its act (which I doubt). However Hamas damn well needs to change itself to be people worth dealing with. If they don't then they'll soon realise how much its hurting any chance for peace and for improvements in the Occupied Territories.

[Magnus]

Yes, it is one big problem that hamas do not accept israel as a state in the first place, although I also agree with the statement that one should never rule out negotiations.

I doubt we will see a lasting peace in this region within the next 20-30 years. For every shell there is more hate, and for every other bomb there are more devoted young men, willing to give their life for the cause. And why is that? Lack of education, lack of money and lack of hope. A feeling of being utterly diminshed by the israels and the us.

The biggest problem is that it is difficult to talk with palestine as a state, because it tends to crack up in different fractions. One party will always be disappointed with what the other part agrees upon, and the critizisme will mostly, as it has been previously, imply that someone is being to soft.
I hope for the best, but I do not expect anything from this conflict, other then more pointless killings and more suffering on both sides.

[Drew]

What are these pre-conditions? It kind of depends whether Hamas has to do the catering or whether Hamas has to disband completely...

[Rani]

The purpose of negotiations is to compromise and reach an agreement both parties can accept.
Would you negotiate with a government that:
A. Doesn't think you have the right to exist (don't you think it's absurd offering a ceasefire to someone you truly believe should be wiped from the land?)
B. Targets CIVILIANS with rockets and mortars. It's not like there aren't any soldiers around, it's just that when you kill innocent children than you hit 'em where it hurts.
C. Has been holding Gilad Shalit (an Israeli soldier) captive for a year and a half without him facing judge nor jury.
Would you negotiate ?
I think what you stated is a pretentious and condesending, and it also shows that you have a very superficial understanding of the situation.

[Magnus]

It would be really interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter rani! how do you think the conflict should be solved? What do you think abt the possibilities? In sweden it is very difficult to take any other positition than that Israel is the bad guy, it sems, all though the swedish foreign minister carl Bildt has a quite healthy point of view, I think.
And what do the Israelis think generally? Do they feel that the israeli government are doing the right thing?

[Eki]

Would you negotiate with a government that:
A. Doesn't think you have the right to exist (don't you think it's absurd offering a ceasefire to someone you truly believe should be wiped from the land?)

I would at least try to talk to them to find out what their problem is with that and to find out if there's something we could do to reach a compromise.


B. Targets CIVILIANS with rockets and mortars. It's not like there aren't any soldiers around, it's just that when you kill innocent children than you hit 'em where it hurts.

Their rockets and mortars are so poorly guided and aimed they don't know where they land. Often they land on uninhabited areas. They don't have laser and GPS guided weapons like Israel (and yet Israel had the nerve to claim the bombing of the UN station in Lebanon was an accident) .

[Rani]

It would be really interesting to hear your thoughts on the matter rani! how do you think the conflict should be solved? What do you think abt the possibilities? In sweden it is very difficult to take any other positition than that Israel is the bad guy, it sems, all though the swedish foreign minister carl Bildt has a quite healthy point of view, I think.
And what do the Israelis think generally? Do they feel that the israeli government are doing the right thing?
First of all, I think the Palestinians are way overdue for a country of their own in Gaza and the West Bank. Ever since Yasser Arafat passed, there seems to be a void in the area of leadership for them. Arafat had a chance to achieve great things for his people when former PM Ehud Barak offered him perhaps all that the state of Israel could ever offer, but Arafat declined and in his late years seemed to prefer terrorism and corruption over advancing the peace process.
Ever since, and even more so now that the Hamas is in power in Gaza, it seems that there isn't a viable partner for peace. This latest "offer for ceasefire" is only out because Hamas is starting to feel the heat in Gaza, and they want to reorganize (in my view at least). I think Hamas will never agree to a permanent solution that will include Israel retaining it's current territories excluding Gaza and the West Bank.
Israel is a very troubled nation these days. Problems like ever growing social economic gaps, emigration of bright minds abroad and masses of young people who cheat their way out of enlisting to the army are all major challenges we will have to face in the future.
Concerning the government, I think that PM Olmert is one of the worst leaders we've had for the past few decades. In fact it is widely perceived that the second Lebanon war was waged very poorly, especially on behalf of PM Olmert and former defense minister Amir Perez.
As you can tell I am not too optimistic (at least for the time being). I hope to be able to see this conflict resolved in my life time (and I'm not even 23 yet), because it's not a simple matter at all.

[Daniel]

Would you negotiate with a government that:
A. Doesn't think you have the right to exist (don't you think it's absurd offering a ceasefire to someone you truly believe should be wiped from the land?)
B. Targets CIVILIANS with rockets and mortars. It's not like there aren't any soldiers around, it's just that when you kill innocent children than you hit 'em where it hurts.
C. Has been holding Gilad Shalit (an Israeli soldier) captive for a year and a half without him facing judge nor jury.
Would you negotiate ?
I think what you stated is a pretentious and condesending, and it also shows that you have a very superficial understanding of the situation.
The problem is that Israel itself also never seems willing to go the whole hog and give the Palestinians what they want. With wounds this old it takes something special to sort things out. Not tit for tat fighting. Palestinians fire rockets on Israel so the Israeli's go and fire missiles on the Palestinians.

[Rani]

I would at least try to talk to them to find out what their problem is with that and to find out if there's something we could do to reach a compromise.
Their problem is that they don't recognize that Israel has a right to exist. I guess compromise in this issue would have to be us packing up and moving to Mars. I bet you'd be satisfied.



Their rockets and mortars are so poorly guided and aimed they don't know where they land. Often they land on uninhabited areas. They don't have laser and GPS guided weapons like Israel (and yet Israel had the nerve to claim the bombing of the UN station in Lebanon was an accident) .
You actually claim that they "accidentally" hit civilians? give me a break. Have you ever seen a mortar? Believe me that you can control where it hits to a radius of 100 meters easily. I agree the Kassam rockets are pretty crude (but impressive in their simplicity) but they too can cause major damage to a house.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/3d14c9e5cdaa296d85256cbf005aa3eb/56360d73bab50b0e8525710700766234!OpenDocument
I guess they are aiming towards agricultural land. That explains why people regularly take to the streets and celebrate by throwing candy whenever civilians are killed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ0bWEnW_WU -in this instance celebrating 9/11.
Concerning what you said about the bombong of the UN statiom. War is a messy, dirty, horrible and gruesome thing. Guided weapons miss and sometimes even kills friendly forces (not only UN but also IDF) in the chaos when targeted wrongly. That doesn't make it deliborate.

[Daniel]

Just like Israel accidently gets civilians with their missiles? :)

How many times did that UN station call to ask for the firing to stop?

[Eki]

You actually claim that they "accidentally" hit civilians? give me a break. Have you ever seen a mortar? Believe me that you can control where it hits to a radius of 100 meters easily.
Depends on the mortar and its operators, I guess. A home-made mortar with untrained operators probably isn't as accurate as factory made mortars with trained operators. I don't know that much about aiming a mortar, I was in field artillery myself, but at least aiming artillery requires setting up the guns and their optics, measurements and calculations to aim accurately. That requires time, which I think the palestinians are short of if they want to avoid being captured or killed.

[Rani]

That requires time, which I think the palestinians are short of if they want to avoid being captured or killed.
They also employ the tactic of using residential areas (a few months ago even using a school- actual footage http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht2B9KaDAEw) as cover .
I agree the Hamas is inferior in weapons and training. I just think that deliberately targeting innocent people instead of soldiers is a cowardly deed.
I also hold an opinion that using some poor family's yard as a launch pad - effectively making the family your human shield, is a cowardly deed.
When the other side has casualties, no one in Tel Aviv (or anywhere else around here) parties in the street. On the contrary.
I urge everyone whose ever held an opinion about this confict to watch this film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6MafdQcATQ. It's from a few years back but nothing has changed since then. Even if you hate Israel to the bone please bear it and watch it to the end. I await your comments.

[Jag_Warrior]

Meanwhile, a Cabinet minister confirmed that Israel has yet another plan to build hundreds of apartments in disputed east Jerusalem and the West Bank

Well now, who would have seen that one coming down Main Street? Wonder what that plan will cost U.S. taxpayers? :dozey:

[Eki]

deliberately targeting innocent people instead of soldiers is a cowardly deed.

What are their choices then, if they want to go on fighting? Nothing, I guess.

[Rani]

What are their choices then, if they want to go on fighting? Nothing, I guess.
Does that mean you justify intentional harming of innocent people?
If it does, than I have to say I don't get it. Could you imagine yourself aiming your own artillery at a city center?
It's exactly the same.

[Eki]

Does that mean you justify intentional harming of innocent people?
If it does, than I have to say I don't get it. Could you imagine yourself aiming your own artillery at a city center?
It's exactly the same.
No, I mean what's wrong in resistance? There was resistance when the Nazis tried to expand their "Third Reich" to Poland. I don't see much difference in today's Israel and the past "Third Reich". They both want/wanted more "lebensraum" (room to live in) and have a "winner takes it all" attitude. Neither are/were ready to compromise and share.

[Rani]

No, I mean what's wrong in resistance? There was resistance when the Nazis tried to expand their "Third Reich" to Poland. I don't see much difference in today's Israel and the past "Third Reich". They both want/wanted more "lebensraum" (room to live in) and have a "winner takes it all" attitude. Neither are/were ready to compromise and share.
I think you are comparing Israel to the Nazi's just to flare my temper (me being decendant of Holocaust survivors and all), that's pretty mean on your part IMO. Furthermore, You seriously need a history lesson. Class is in session, please pay attention:
Striving for more "leibensraum"?
read this: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_campdavid_2000.php
All this was in 2000.



"The details were not disclosed formally, but according to media reports Barak's offer included:

Israeli redeployment from 95% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
The creation of a Palestinian state in the areas of Israeli withdrawal[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
The removal of isolated settlements and transfer of the land to Palestinian control[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
Other Israeli land exchanged for West Bank settlements remaining under Israeli control[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
Palestinian control over East Jerusalem, including most of the Old City[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
"Religious Sovereignty" over the Temple Mount, replacing Israeli sovereignty in effect since 1967 "[/*:m:2o0v2fj6]
What's more sharing than offering East Jerusalem?
What's more comprimising than one sidedly kicking all Jewish settlers out of Gaza in 2005? Do you know what we got in return for executing the "disengagment plan"?
We got nothing but more violence.

I objectively think we are not the ones throwing sticks in the peace process' wheels. Give us a Palestinian leader whose ready to recognize our right to live here as much as he does and you'll have peace in no time.

It's so nice living in a clean glass tower and judging while you plainly never sat foot neither in Israel nor in The Territories. All this self righteousness is making me sick.

[Malbec]

What's more sharing than offering East Jerusalem?
What's more comprimising than one sidedly kicking all Jewish settlers out of Gaza in 2005? Do you know what we got in return for executing the "disengagment plan"?
We got nothing but more violence.

I objectively think we are not the ones throwing sticks in the peace process' wheels. Give us a Palestinian leader whose ready to recognize our right to live here as much as he does and you'll have peace in no time.

It's so nice living in a clean glass tower and judging while you plainly never sat foot neither in Israel nor in The Territories. All this self righteousness is making me sick.

There will be a point in history when rational Palestinians will remember the rejection of that offer as possibly being the greatest disaster in their history since 1948.

The other problem the Palestinians have always had is a lack of a coherent command and control structure. Fatah could well negotiate a ceasefire with the Israelis with the best of intentions only to have the rug pulled out from under them by some renegade group firing rockets into Israel or organising a suicide bombing expedition and thus violating the ceasefire. Now keeping these elements under control is even harder because much of the Palestinian security infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israelis, but unless the Palestinians can instill discipline within their ranks real peace will be impossible.

The Israelis put obstacles in the way of peace efforts too, engaging in talks whilst expanding settlements for example. That kind of behaviour really needs to stop. Also how did Israelis react to the killing of Prime Minister Rabin? Most countries would have been determined to finish the peace process he had started, instead Israelis voted for a politician who had views more in common with his assassin to succeed him.

Ultimately both sides are running out of time. On the Israeli side the birth rate of the religious right outstrips that of mainstream Jews and immigration ensuring that Israel gets more polarised, whilst the extremists are getting more powerful on the Palestinian side as the mainstream political groups keep failing to deliver promised improvements. If peace seems hard to achieve now, it'll only get harder.

Oh and Rani don't worry too much about Eki, his knowledge of the Middle East is derived only through the internet.

[Jag_Warrior]

I objectively think we are not the ones throwing sticks in the peace process' wheels.

Hopefully you meant subjectively. Agreeing to disagree is what needs to happen sometimes. But there's no way that one could be in the middle of a dispute and then say (without a giggle), "I am the one being objective here."

[Rani]

There will be a point in history when rational Palestinians will remember the rejection of that offer as possibly being the greatest disaster in their history since 1948.

The other problem the Palestinians have always had is a lack of a coherent command and control structure. Fatah could well negotiate a ceasefire with the Israelis with the best of intentions only to have the rug pulled out from under them by some renegade group firing rockets into Israel or organising a suicide bombing expedition and thus violating the ceasefire. Now keeping these elements under control is even harder because much of the Palestinian security infrastructure has been destroyed by the Israelis, but unless the Palestinians can instill discipline within their ranks real peace will be impossible.

The Israelis put obstacles in the way of peace efforts too, engaging in talks whilst expanding settlements for example. That kind of behaviour really needs to stop. Also how did Israelis react to the killing of Prime Minister Rabin? Most countries would have been determined to finish the peace process he had started, instead Israelis voted for a politician who had views more in common with his assassin to succeed him.

Ultimately both sides are running out of time. On the Israeli side the birth rate of the religious right outstrips that of mainstream Jews and immigration ensuring that Israel gets more polarised, whilst the extremists are getting more powerful on the Palestinian side as the mainstream political groups keep failing to deliver promised improvements. If peace seems hard to achieve now, it'll only get harder.

Oh and Rani don't worry too much about Eki, his knowledge of the Middle East is derived only through the internet.
Agree with your every word.

[Eki]

I think you are comparing Israel to the Nazi's just to flare my temper (me being decendant of Holocaust survivors and all), that's pretty mean on your part IMO.
No, I'm just pointing out what a hypocrite Israel is, just like the US. You both believe that might makes right.

[Camelopard]

Class is in session, please pay attention:
.

And you are calling any one who puts an oppsosite point of view across as condescending!

[Rani]

No, I'm just pointing out what a hypocrite Israel is, just like the US. You both believe that might makes right.
I think you thoroughly showed you don't really know what's going on. You see the situation in such a black-white manner, that it almost seems like your talking out of some inner hatred towards Israel. That's probably the media coverage you consume talking. In my view, you're content in hearing one side of the story, and to he11 with the truth. I guess you just don't believe anything I say, even when backing it up with clear evidents.
Anyway, I'm not one to go in circles, so you can say the final word.
Anyone with half a brain, a clear mind and a bit of common sense will be able to spot whose opinions are based on knowledge and experience, and who just watches the news and reads the paper.
Over and out.
Rani
PS Remember this thread when fundamentalist terrorism comes your way, because you won't hear an "I told you so" from me.

[Eki]

PS Remember this thread when fundamentalist terrorism comes your way, because you won't hear an "I told you so" from me.
I can't see any reason why it would come. It's not like we've taken their land like Israel or been meddling in their soverignity and internal affairs like the US.

[Daniel]

I can't see any reason why it would come. It's not like we've taken their land like Israel or been meddling in their soverignity and internal affairs like the US.

I'm siding with Eki here. Since when do you hear of Finland pissing people off to the point where they want to kill ordinary Finnish citizens?

The Palestinians don't have issues with Israel because they believe they've got a good deal out of being displaced by Israel and that Israel treats them fairly now.....

[Magnus]

The palestinians have issues with Israel because they do not want them there at all; as said before they do not even accept Israel as as state in the first place. So which side is the better, the one which as least accepts the existence of the other state or the one that doesn´t?

I think there is no one which question Finlands right to exist today. If there where I think some Finns would be a bit upset.
Maybe it was wrong to place the Jew nation where it is to day in the first place, but now the decision is made by the UN, and very few opposes it. one group is some palestinians, who, like aother terrorist groups throughout the world doesn´t care if civilians are killed during the process.

Israel for sure is doing a lot of things the wrong way, but the state itself must be accepted by the palestinians, otherwise the debacle will never end.

The big problem for israel is that the state is quiestioned by other Arabic states in the area aswell, one of them being Ahmadinejad who has even questioned the holocaust. If it wasn´t for the support from UN and USA Israel would probably not exist toady.

The palestininans must accept that Israel will never go away, and we must accept it asweel. Then a proper discussion can take place.

[Tomi]

I'm siding with Eki here. Since when do you hear of Finland pissing people off to the point where they want to kill ordinary Finnish citizens?

The Palestinians don't have issues with Israel because they believe they've got a good deal out of being displaced by Israel and that Israel treats them fairly now.....

Same here, funny how someone think "fundamentalist terrorism comes your way" randomly just like that.

[Magnus]

Yeah, like the people on the 747 over Lockerbie, or the peoples on the train in madrid, or the people on Kuta beach on Bali, or the people on the subway in tokyo (sarin), or the people in the Oklahaoma building.
Terroists do not care for who they kill, the cause justifies anything.
Hence we can not ever accept it.

It is another question that we can neither can accept states which takes their right to do as they will, but they should not be fought with terrorism.

[Daniel]

Yes but there's a difference between attacks like the Oklahoma and Tokyo attacks and things like September 11 and attacks on Israel.

That kid went a bit crazy in Finland a little while ago but there's no reason to suspect that there are more of these attacks planned.

When places like Australia, UK and USA go pick a fight with a religion then people are going to get narked and the attacks are going to continue till these people don't feel like they're threatened anymore.

Innocent people and countries that didn't do anything wrong will always get caught up in the crossfire but by and large it's places like the US and Israel that go and poke the hornets nest on a regular basis that will get stung. Regular fundamentalist attacks don't just happen randomly.

[Daniel]

The palestinians have issues with Israel because they do not want them there at all; as said before they do not even accept Israel as as state in the first place. So which side is the better, the one which as least accepts the existence of the other state or the one that doesn´t?

I think there is no one which question Finlands right to exist today. If there where I think some Finns would be a bit upset.
Maybe it was wrong to place the Jew nation where it is to day in the first place, but now the decision is made by the UN, and very few opposes it. one group is some palestinians, who, like aother terrorist groups throughout the world doesn´t care if civilians are killed during the process.

Israel for sure is doing a lot of things the wrong way, but the state itself must be accepted by the palestinians, otherwise the debacle will never end.

The big problem for israel is that the state is quiestioned by other Arabic states in the area aswell, one of them being Ahmadinejad who has even questioned the holocaust. If it wasn´t for the support from UN and USA Israel would probably not exist toady.

The palestininans must accept that Israel will never go away, and we must accept it asweel. Then a proper discussion can take place.
But the issue goes back to after WW2 when the Jewish people got the sympathy vote and got given their own state. At that stage the UN, USA and UK didn't recognise the Palestinians as a people deserving of their own state and caused the problem then.

[Malbec]

The palestinians have issues with Israel because they do not want them there at all; as said before they do not even accept Israel as as state in the first place. So which side is the better, the one which as least accepts the existence of the other state or the one that doesn´t?

I think there is no one which question Finlands right to exist today. If there where I think some Finns would be a bit upset.
Maybe it was wrong to place the Jew nation where it is to day in the first place, but now the decision is made by the UN, and very few opposes it. one group is some palestinians, who, like aother terrorist groups throughout the world doesn´t care if civilians are killed during the process.

Israel for sure is doing a lot of things the wrong way, but the state itself must be accepted by the palestinians, otherwise the debacle will never end.

The big problem for israel is that the state is quiestioned by other Arabic states in the area aswell, one of them being Ahmadinejad who has even questioned the holocaust. If it wasn´t for the support from UN and USA Israel would probably not exist toady.

The palestininans must accept that Israel will never go away, and we must accept it asweel. Then a proper discussion can take place.

Which Palestinians are you talking about? Fatah under Arafat recognised Israel and its right to exist under the Oslo peace accords. Hamas claims it doesn't but in practical terms since it negotiates with the Israeli state on a daily basis regarding banal things like electricity, water and refuse dumping does too.

There's a difference between removing Israeli presence from the Occupied Territories and removing Israel altogether. Fatah wants the former but not the latter. Hamas claims to want both but doesn't do much to do the latter. The fringe groups also want both and do everything to fulfil both their targets and are responsible for derailing many previous peace processes.

BTW Iran isn't an Arabic state. If you claimed that it was in the middle of Teheran you wouldn't last very long.

Israel negotiates with Fatah, knows it ought to negotiate with Hamas but will use any provocation by the fringe elements to stop any peace process going on. Not only that but it engages in collective punishment to harm all Palestinians when a handful of teenagers are firing rockets into Israel. That is no way to go for peace either.

[Malbec]

That's probably the media coverage you consume talking.

Thats not a fair view of European press coverage of the Middle East, or at least British.

Both my Jewish and Arabic friends claim organisations like the BBC are institutionally anti-Semetic or Arabic. IMO thats great. If both sides feel that the news is biased towards the opposing side then thats proof to me that its relatively neutral. Given the barbarity of whats going on both sides ought to feel offended by fair reporting.

I've seen American news programmes reporting about Israeli bombing within the West Bank carefully omitting the number of children that were killed or news from Arabic channels that does the opposite with Israeli victims (Al-Jazeera being a notable exception). I'm not for that I'm afraid.

[Malbec]

Innocent people and countries that didn't do anything wrong will always get caught up in the crossfire but by and large it's places like the US and Israel that go and poke the hornets nest on a regular basis that will get stung. Regular fundamentalist attacks don't just happen randomly.

Religion is only a tool in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict though. For the most part of its history the Palestinian military effort has been carried through by the PLO which renamed itself Fatah recently. They are a pretty secular organisation claiming to represent all Palestinians whether Christian or Muslim and its open to both. Only recently have overtly Muslim groups like Hamas emerged as real power brokers.

IMO the real reason why we find what Israel is doing offensive is that European states have spent much of the last century disengaging from empires while Israel is clearly building a new one in the Occupied Territories. Not only that but the Israelis are pretty brutal (and the Palestinians brutal back) and have learnt nigh on nothing in over 40 years of occupying the Palestinians, thus making a royal hash of it.

Compare that to the Americans in Iraq. From 2003 onwards they've faced a massive insurgency. Many of their early decisions would have been laughable if they weren't so catastrophic. They totally ignored advice from both within and without from people with experience of effectively stamping your authority on a country and people who both don't want you there and are of a totally different race/religion/culture/political affiliation.

What have they done since 2003? In 4 years they've assessed and re-assessed everything they've done. They've learnt to use local aid, local political initiatives to try and calm things down. They've adapted tactics to suit the enemy. End result? The insurgency in Iraq is much quieter and some groups like the Sunnis have effectively switched sides to be with the Yanks. A lot of Iraqis would rather trust an American unit than an Iraqi. The transformation in tactics and results is obvious.

The Israelis have been in the Occupied Territories 10 times longer than the Americans have been in Iraq. Its pretty clear their tactics are failing. The violence gets worse, more Israeli soldiers and civilians are getting killed. Israel is ostracised in the international community. More and more Israeli and US taxmoney is spent trying to pacify a community that simply isn't doing as its told. The Israeli response has been merely to crank up the violence. Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism didn't work 40 years ago yet the Israelis are still doing it. Hassling and brutalising Palestinians at checkpoints didn't work 30 years ago so why carry on? One wants to knock on the forehead of Israeli generals and politicians and ask "is anybody home?". The Israelis really need to question the path they've taken over the past 40 years.

Much of it is because the Israelis told themselves they weren't really going to hang onto the Occupied Territories for too long whilst making their presence permanent through settlement building. Using brute force is fine if you're only going to be around for a few months/years. Any longer than that and some kind of compassionate method is essential.

[Malbec]

But the issue goes back to after WW2 when the Jewish people got the sympathy vote and got given their own state. At that stage the UN, USA and UK didn't recognise the Palestinians as a people deserving of their own state and caused the problem then.

Thats not quite true either.

While the Holocaust caused revulsion when it came to concrete actions none of the main powers did much to establish a Jewish state. The Brits tried to keep the peace in Palestine with both the Jews and Arabs trying to kill each other and the Brits. Eventually the Brits got fed up, pulled out and left them to it.

The Jews who included many seasoned fighters from WW2 beat the Arabs and took control of whats known as Israel. Many of the Arab armies that fought the Jewish state then were trained, armed and sometimes led by British officers, a hangover from Empire. A lot of Palestinians left then partly because they were told to by the Arabs so they could return after Israel was wiped out and partly because they feared Israeli atrocities.

The Americans couldn't really be bothered about Israel though the American Jewish lobby sent a lot of funding and emigrants. Stalin sent Israel some support because he thought it was a way of hurting Britain.

In other words, Israel was established DESPITE the US and the UK, not because of.

[Daniel]

Religion is only a tool in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict though. For the most part of its history the Palestinian military effort has been carried through by the PLO which renamed itself Fatah recently. They are a pretty secular organisation claiming to represent all Palestinians whether Christian or Muslim and its open to both. Only recently have overtly Muslim groups like Hamas emerged as real power brokers.

IMO the real reason why we find what Israel is doing offensive is that European states have spent much of the last century disengaging from empires while Israel is clearly building a new one in the Occupied Territories. Not only that but the Israelis are pretty brutal (and the Palestinians brutal back) and have learnt nigh on nothing in over 40 years of occupying the Palestinians, thus making a royal hash of it.

Compare that to the Americans in Iraq. From 2003 onwards they've faced a massive insurgency. Many of their early decisions would have been laughable if they weren't so catastrophic. They totally ignored advice from both within and without from people with experience of effectively stamping your authority on a country and people who both don't want you there and are of a totally different race/religion/culture/political affiliation.

What have they done since 2003? In 4 years they've assessed and re-assessed everything they've done. They've learnt to use local aid, local political initiatives to try and calm things down. They've adapted tactics to suit the enemy. End result? The insurgency in Iraq is much quieter and some groups like the Sunnis have effectively switched sides to be with the Yanks. A lot of Iraqis would rather trust an American unit than an Iraqi. The transformation in tactics and results is obvious.

The Israelis have been in the Occupied Territories 10 times longer than the Americans have been in Iraq. Its pretty clear their tactics are failing. The violence gets worse, more Israeli soldiers and civilians are getting killed. Israel is ostracised in the international community. More and more Israeli and US taxmoney is spent trying to pacify a community that simply isn't doing as its told. The Israeli response has been merely to crank up the violence. Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism didn't work 40 years ago yet the Israelis are still doing it. Hassling and brutalising Palestinians at checkpoints didn't work 30 years ago so why carry on? One wants to knock on the forehead of Israeli generals and politicians and ask "is anybody home?". The Israelis really need to question the path they've taken over the past 40 years.

Much of it is because the Israelis told themselves they weren't really going to hang onto the Occupied Territories for too long whilst making their presence permanent through settlement building. Using brute force is fine if you're only going to be around for a few months/years. Any longer than that and some kind of compassionate method is essential.
Pretty much. As much as you want to criticise the Americans I feel their goals for the Iraqi people are genuine. Israel seems one month to make a genuine effort to be nice to the Palestinians and then the next month they're pissing them off.

[Rani]

The Israelis have been in the Occupied Territories 10 times longer than the Americans have been in Iraq. Its pretty clear their tactics are failing. The violence gets worse, more Israeli soldiers and civilians are getting killed. The Israeli response has been merely to crank up the violence. Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism didn't work 40 years ago yet the Israelis are still doing it. Hassling and brutalising Palestinians at checkpoints didn't work 30 years ago so why carry on? One wants to knock on the forehead of Israeli generals and politicians and ask "is anybody home?". The Israelis really need to question the path they've taken over the past 40 years.

I haven't heard of any "Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism". It's true houses of mass murderers (suicide bombers- I hope you agree with me that blowing yourself up in the middle of a shopping mall is murder and not military action) were destroyed. The way you portrayed it is not true.
I stood at a checkpoint like you mentioned near Jerusalem as a soldier. I NEVER hassled NOR brutalised anyone. I did check for explosives, I did search for weapons and I did check ID's. Like it or not I also treated people with respect and dignity, for the simple fact that I know I'm not better than them in any way. BTW a friend of mine from my squad almost got himself killed but fortunately he caught a person hiding a 12 inch blade in his coat before he got a chance to use it.

I honestly believe that if a viable chance for peace (and by that I mean a viable partner) presented itself, Israel would jump at the opportunity. This was proven in 94 in Oslo and in 2000 in Camp David.

[Daniel]

I haven't heard of any "Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism". It's true houses of mass murderers (suicide bombers- I hope you agree with me that blowing yourself up in the middle of a shopping mall is murder and not military action) were destroyed. The way you portrayed it is not true.
I stood at a checkpoint like you mentioned near Jerusalem as a soldier. I NEVER hassled NOR brutalised anyone. I did check for explosives, I did search for weapons and I did check ID's. Like it or not I also treated people with respect and dignity, for the simple fact that I know I'm not better than them in any way. BTW a friend of mine from my squad almost got himself killed but fortunately he caught a person hiding a 12 inch blade in his coat before he got a chance to use it.

I honestly believe that if a viable chance for peace (and by that I mean a viable partner) presented itself, Israel would jump at the opportunity. This was proven in 94 in Oslo and in 2000 in Camp David.
You complain when innocent Israeli's get killed but what about innocent Palestinians or Lebanese people?

[Daniel]

I think you are comparing Israel to the Nazi's just to flare my temper (me being decendant of Holocaust survivors and all), that's pretty mean on your part IMO. Furthermore, You seriously need a history lesson. Class is in session, please pay attention:
Striving for more "leibensraum"?

On behalf of Eki I take particular offence to this.

What Eki is trying to illustrate is the hypocrisy of Israel. The Jewish people were victims of something rather horrible. We all know this and no one on this forum will deny it.

So why then do they go and do something similar to someone else if you thought it was horrible?

Sure Israel doesn't round Palestinians up and gas them or work them to death but you (Israel) impose economic hardship upon these people and when you feel like it you go into their territory and attack targets and don't care about the collateral damage. Why should anyone like or endorse such behaviour? Why should the Palestinians think "It's for our own good?"

The only difference between the behavious of the Palestinian terrorists and Israel is that you can dress it up and call it an army and they are simply branded as terrorists.

[Rani]

The only difference between the behavious of the Palestinian terrorists and Israel is that you can dress it up and call it an army and they are simply branded as terrorists.
If only you could see how much risks soldiers take just to prevent collateral damage. I agree collateral damage is made, but never on purpose. Try to get some stats and you'll find that the "genuinely trying to help" US does (and has done) way more collateral damage in Afghanistan and Iraq. While the US preferred to strike from the air (this makes the most amount of collateral damage - especially in dense residential areas, but keeps your soldiers safe) Israel sends regular infantry to the streets a lot more, only using aircraft when there is no choice.

I simply can't seem to grasp how someone would compare the murdering of innocent people by means of suicide bombings and intentional civilian targeting to targeting armed terrorists.
Can someone argue this last sentence?
Has anyone here ever heard of an Israeli soldier sent on a mission from his superiors to strap on an explosive device and blow himself up in the middle of a Humus restaurant in Jenin?
Has anyone here ever heard of an aerial strike in the middle of the Nablus Casba (the main market)?
Can't you see your views are distorted?

[Daniel]

You call it toe may toe i call it to mar toe. If you kill a civilian you kill a civilian. What does it matter whether you kill someone by missile, mortar, plague of ravenous gerbils or a suicide bomb? You're no better than "them"

[Magnus]

Both my Jewish and Arabic friends claim organisations like the BBC are institutionally anti-Semetic or Arabic. IMO thats great. If both sides feel that the news is biased towards the opposing side then thats proof to me that its relatively neutral. Given the barbarity of whats going on both sides ought to feel offended by fair reporting.
I find the same things in Sweden; Bonnier, who owns a lot of swedish media, are jews. Nazis ofcourse exploit this. On the other hand these medias are very negative towards Israel, and i believe the whole discussion is biased against Israel.

Regarding wheather Iran is an arabic country or not, that is not very interesting, every one knows what I mean, and my thoughts upon this matter is not by any means depending on if Iran is a real arabic country or not, but wheater it is a muslim state or not. This is not a question of what to call certain countries, it is a question of hatred and religion.

As I have said before, Israel has big problems with how they deal with the situation, mainly because they are somewhat mezmerized by the religious propaganda, which goes for the US to a certain dregree aswell. But the main problem remains with the palestinians.

"Religion is only a tool in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict though"
IMO this is a huge misunderstanding, diregarding the very existence of the Israeli state and the somewhat awkward power of faith.

[Daniel]

The thing is Magnus. I think we expect more from an affluent country than we do from a paramilitary organisation that was founded because the palestinians are oppressed.

[Camelopard]

I honestly believe that if a viable chance for peace (and by that I mean a viable partner) presented itself, Israel would jump at the opportunity. This was proven in 94 in Oslo and in 2000 in Camp David.

No I don't, Israel wants to constantly play the 'poor me, why do all these bad things happen to us' theme, to get sympathy from the rest of the world.
They conveniently forget that "Collective Punishment" against the all Palestinians is illegal under I believe Israeli law as well as international law.
How can the bombing of Beruit last year not be considered a terrorist act using "Collective Punishment" against innocent civilians?
Oh I forgot they are only 'innocent civilians' when they are killed in Israel, elsewhere they are purely collateral damage (a nice sanitised term for murder).

Rani, what were taught about the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 by members of Irgun? Were they not the members of Irgun by definition 'Fundamental Terrorists?". If their leader, Menachem Begin (who allegedly gave the order) had done that today to the US or their interests for example, he would be rotting in a cell chained to the floor in Guantamamo Bay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

[Magnus]

If their leader, Menachem Begin (who allegedly gave the order) had done that today to the US or their interests for example, he would be rotting in a cell chained to the floor in Guantamamo Bay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Yeah, just like Usama Bin Laden ;)

I have had my share of nice wine by now, and the house has gone to bed, and so will I. I will continue this very interesting discussion tomorrow.

G´Night to yall!

[Camelopard]

This is in todays Sydney Morning Herald:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bombs-did-not-violate-rules-of-war-says-israel/2007/12/25/1198345008948.html

I quote a few parts,

"
Cluster bombs are not prohibited in warfare but their use is criticised because they contain "bomblets" that explode over a wide area and may strike unintended targets. In addition, bomblets that fail to explode become land mines that can be detonated by civilians long after fighting has stopped. More than 30 Lebanese are said to have been killed by munitions left behind after last year's month-long war."

"Soon after the fighting stopped, the United Nations humanitarian affairs chief, Jan Egeland, described Israel's use of cluster bombs as shocking and "completely immoral", partly because most were fired in the last 72 hours of the war, when it was clear that the conflict was moving towards a resolution"

""the majority of the cluster munitions were fired at open and uninhabited areas"
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........

So the dead Lebanese were terrorists and legitimate targets or just "collateral damage"?

Makes me think of the fact that citizens of Laos are still dying today due to unexploded ordance dropped by the US over 30 years ago. Just another fact, not relevant here I know but anyway, the US and it's allies dropped more tonnage of bombs on Laos during the Vietnam war that were dropped on Germany during WWII.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-12-11-laos-bombs_x.htm

quote in part:
"Cluster bombs, known here as "bombies," account for about half the unexploded ordnance on the ground and most of the casualties. Since the bombing ended in 1973, 5,700 Laotians have been killed and 5,600 injured by UXO. Through the end of August, 14 of the 30 Laotians reported killed this year and 33 of the 58 injured by UXO have been children."

"
This impoverished, landlocked country endured one of history's heaviest bombing campaigns. From 1964 through 1973, the United States flew 580,000 bombing runs over Laos — one every 9 minutes for 10 years. More than 2 million tons of ordnance was unloaded on the countryside, double the amount dropped on Nazi Germany in World War II. "Certainly, on a per-capita basis, Laos remains the most heavily bombed nation in the history of warfare," says Martin Stuart-Fox, a historian at Queensland University in Australia and author of A History of Laos."

[Camelopard]

Yeah, just like Usama Bin Laden ;)

I have had my share of nice wine by now, and the house has gone to bed, and so will I. I will continue this very interesting discussion tomorrow.

G´Night to yall!


Not though the lack of trying to find him, he's probably holed up somewhere in his home country, which suprise, suprise, isn't Iraq nor Iran nor even Afghanistan but that good ally of the west, Saudi Arabia.

[SOD]

whoever thought that the palestinians would forget "in a generationation or two" what had happened to them in 1948, had a screw loose.

[Camelopard]

The Israelis put obstacles in the way of peace efforts too, engaging in talks whilst expanding settlements for example.


And building walls that divide Palestinian villagers from their fields! :( (http://www.auphr.org/thewall/)

Also dividing school classrooms from their playing fields!!!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1814970,00.html

That's a really good way to get them onside.

[SOD]

PS Remember this thread when fundamentalist terrorism comes your way, because you won't hear an "I told you so" from me.

you do know that fundamentalism originally applies to fundamentalist Christians. they believe that a big war has to happen before the Saviour returns, guess where they expect the Saviour to re-appear :?:

only a very small amount of Muslims are fundamentalist terrorist fanatics, and I know that the Jews got on very well with the Muslims.

[SOD]

And building walls that divide Palestinian villagers from their fields! :( (http://www.auphr.org/thewall/)

Also dividing school classrooms from their playing fields!!!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1814970,00.html

That's a really good way to get them onside.

in the long term the wall wont work in demoralising the palestinians, just make them more determined.

[Camelopard]

whoever thought that the palestinians would forget "in a generationation or two" what had happened to them in 1948, had a screw loose.

Exactly my point, why should the Palestinians be expected to forget that they lost a country, after all we are constantly being reminded not to forget the holocaust and what happened to the Jews, as if they were the only ones affected by atrocious acts in past history.

[Rani]

.
How can the bombing of Beruit last year not be considered a terrorist act using "Collective Punishment" against innocent civilians?


Rani, what were taught about the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 by members of Irgun? Were they not the members of Irgun by definition 'Fundamental Terrorists?".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

The bombing of Beirut's Al - Dahia quater was conducted only after leaflets were dropped telling people the raid is going to commence. Like it or not this was Hizbollah's HQ (of course they built it in the city center so you'd have to think twice before attacking.).

The bombing of the King David Hotel was indeed a terrorist act. With one differance. Had you read it through you would have seen that the Brits got a warning before the bomb went off. While I don't justify this by any means, everybody could have been saved had they listened.
I haven't heard any warning like this by Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

[Camelopard]

What about the massacre at Deir Yassin where over 100 Palestinian men, women and children were murdered by the Irgun and the Stern Gang.

Were they given leaflets and told to leave otherwise they would be killed??

http://www.revisionisthistory.org/wiesel1.html

[Camelopard]

The bombing of the King David Hotel was indeed a terrorist act. With one differance. Had you read it through you would have seen that the Brits got a warning before the bomb went off. While I don't justify this by any means, everybody could have been saved had they listened.
I haven't heard any warning like this by Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

So if the perpetrators of the Oklahoma City bombing had told people to leave the building that morning, this would have made their act of bombing the building justifiable?

[leopard]

The bombing of the King David Hotel was indeed a terrorist act. With one differance. Had you read it through you would have seen that the Brits got a warning before the bomb went off. While I don't justify this by any means, everybody could have been saved had they listened.
I haven't heard any warning like this by Hamas or Islamic Jihad.
Because if they announce such warning foolishly before the bomb went off, Israel soldier would shot them out prior to the bomb prepared :o

[Daniel]

Rami. Just because you tell someone you're going to do something doesn't make it right. If I said I was going to burn your house to the ground tonight would that make it ok? :rolleyes: Israeli's just somehow think they're above the rest and that's why you have to live with the threat of terrorism all the time.

[Rani]

Rami. Just because you tell someone you're going to do something doesn't make it right. If I said I was going to burn your house to the ground tonight would that make it ok? :rolleyes: Israeli's just somehow think they're above the rest and that's why you have to live with the threat of terrorism all the time.
That doesn't make it right. Not by a long shot. But it does show the purpose was not to kill people, but to make a political statement.

I don't think I'm above anybody. I actually think you're the one who's saying "how hard can it be?" for Israel to give in to Hamas' and Fatah's every wish.
I'd like to hear your solution to this conflict. Criticizing is easy but finding solutions is much tougher. If your solution means closing Israel up and giving the land away, I guess we won't be agreeing. I think that we have a right to this land (and by that I don't mean Gaza and the West Bank) and that pushing us out to sea isn't an option.

I do agree that continuing to build settlements in the territories is wrong, and I do think that cutting off electricity to Gaza is wrong.
Agreed, Israel is more powerful than Hamas, but I don't think this fact makes it ok for Hamas to use terrorism.

I think that had anyone here visited Israel, while they might not agree with a lot of actions this country takes, their view would be a lot less anti - Israel. I wish you could see the looks in the eyes of kids 8-9 year old, pure hatred and killing intentions as they pelt you with rocks the size of bowling balls. The bottom line is that I wasn't brought up like that, you weren't brought up like that, and we both would never bring up our kids up like that.
Come visit, The sun is great, the food is good and Rally Jordan is not far from the Dead Sea (I will probably go anyway).

[Magnus]

What troubles me is the massive criticisme towards Israel everywhere. In my mind this is always a warning signal that something is very wrong...

When the US invaded Iraq, I was among them who critisiced the action taken, along with thousands of other people in Sweden and throughout the world. All the ususal arguments where brought up: capitalisme, Bush being intellectually challenged, Bush being a murderer, oil and so on.

But where were all these people when Saddam Hussein brought terror upon his people? Nowhere. The terror of Hussein was not interesting, the only interesting aspect of the situation in Iraq and the state-terrorism was when it was able to use it as a weapon towards USA. This very sick reversed thinking is to be found in many other conflict areas in the world aswell. Who cares if the talibans supress their women if it is the "capitalisme" under Bush or his likes who challenges it? If it is a capitalistic state which in some way is giving a helping hand towards the people in dispair, then the people might just aswell remain in the regimes of terror, it seems.

When the government of Burma earlier this year with brute force brought down the uprisings in the country, many burmanese people where upset with the US for not coming and aiding them... We know whose side mainstream media would have taken if the US had taken such an action. Peoples suffering always comes second to the chances of throwing mud on states like the US, GB, France, Spain or Israel.

The US and Israel for shure does a lot of things wrong, like ignoring the will of the UN, but somewhere people should also react to the assaults made by many muslime countries on their own people, and on neighboring countries.

The criticisme is very simple I believe, it can not be that everything is the israels fault. The palestinians are at least as ignorant towards human rights as Israel.

[Daniel]

That doesn't make it right. Not by a long shot.


Stop right there. IT'S WRONG. It pisses people off and just makes them want to attack you. At the end of the day someone's got to be the "bigger man" and say "Screw this it's pointless. Lets try and stop the bloodshed"

At the end of the day there's going to come a point where the international community doesn't tolerate your childish tit for tat attacks and leaves you to your own devices. There's only so much you can do to defend yourself these days against terrrorism. Either there will come a day when Israel realises this or there will come a day when it's not just small bombs and mortar attacks. It'll be small nuclear devices, dirty bombs and chemical or biological weapons.

It's your choice as a country if you want it to get worse and we all know it can get a whole lot worse. You're not exactly surrounded by friends or neutral countries now are you.....

[Magnus]

The thing is Magnus. I think we expect more from an affluent country than we do from a paramilitary organisation that was founded because the palestinians are oppressed.

This is where i hope we can meet. That we think of Israel more of a "real" state, and thus could expect more from them. But I seldom see any evidence that this is the case...

[Rani]

At the end of the day someone's got to be the "bigger man" and say "Screw this it's pointless. Lets try and stop the bloodshed"

Guess what? We've tried that already. didn't work. Does that surprise you?
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the+Ministry/Behind+the+Headlines/Behind+the+headlines+-+Kassam+fire+goes+on+despite+cease-fire+21-Dec-2006.htm


Since the beginning of the cease-fire with the Palestinians on 26 November, more than 40 Kassam rockets have been fired into Israel - nine of them in a single day (Wednesday, 20 December). In effect, in cannot be said that a cease-fire truly exists; rather, Israel has shown restraint by not responding to this continuous fire from the Gaza Strip at Ashkelon, Sderot, and the western Negev.
Even though most of these rockets aimed at Israel's civilians have fortunately not resulted in loss of life or serious property damage, no country in the world would tolerate any such attacks on its civilian population. Israel continues to follow a policy of restraint out of a desire to give a chance for peace to develop; out of a willingness to give Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas an opportunity to solidify his control of the government and because Israel wants to avoid an escalation of the situation - but this cannot go on forever.

BTW this was a year ago.



...It's your choice as a country if you want it to get worse and we all know it can get a whole lot worse. You're not exactly surrounded by friends or neutral countries now are you.....
Don't worry about us, Wer'e few but we give a he11 of a fight when attacked by real soldiers instead of cynical hiding in families' homes.

[Malbec]

I haven't heard of any "Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism". It's true houses of mass murderers (suicide bombers- I hope you agree with me that blowing yourself up in the middle of a shopping mall is murder and not military action) were destroyed. The way you portrayed it is not true.
I stood at a checkpoint like you mentioned near Jerusalem as a soldier. I NEVER hassled NOR brutalised anyone. I did check for explosives, I did search for weapons and I did check ID's. Like it or not I also treated people with respect and dignity, for the simple fact that I know I'm not better than them in any way. BTW a friend of mine from my squad almost got himself killed but fortunately he caught a person hiding a 12 inch blade in his coat before he got a chance to use it.

I honestly believe that if a viable chance for peace (and by that I mean a viable partner) presented itself, Israel would jump at the opportunity. This was proven in 94 in Oslo and in 2000 in Camp David.

Rani, I may be wrong about bulldozing the houses of all known terrorists but it goes beyond just suicide bombers. Perhaps the houses of significant terrorist leaders. I do know that the bulldozing of such homes preceded suicide bombing by decades.

I know several Israeli ex-soldiers, obviously every able bodied Israeli adult is one. You're not trying to tell me that there aren't Israeli soldiers who enjoy the position of power they hold over Palestinian civilians and abuse it at checkpoints etc? They may be a minority and more likely to be from the poorer elements of Israeli society but they do cause an amount of animosity out of proportion to their numbers and they most certainly do exist. Certainly the Israelis I know who tend to be of European origin viewed Jewish Israelis descended from those who had been in the territories from way before 1948 as being a totally different and more brutal group of people.

Forget the Palestinians for a moment, how long can Israel carry on doing this Rani? How long can it keep sending kids of both sexes to be traumatised in the Occupied Territories? And how far is the reality of life in Israel in 2007 from the founding principles of the Jewish State in 1948?

Another thing is that globalisation is going to hit Israel as hard as it does any other country. Israel's recent economic growth is highly reliant on IT/High tech. Problem with that is (and I'm going to stereotype here) the kind of geeks you need for those fields tend to be highly employable anywhere in the world and tend to be averse to a military lifestyle. If Israel carries on being unstable will the economy be able to tolerate the braindrain caused by these geeks moving off to the US or the EU rather than serving in the reserves?

[Rani]

Rani, I may be wrong about bulldozing the houses of all known terrorists but it goes beyond just suicide bombers. Perhaps the houses of significant terrorist leaders. I do know that the bulldozing of such homes preceded suicide bombing by decades.

First of all, you might have seen that I'm very careful in every word I say. If I claim something I back it up. In my view, Tossing around populistic claims when you're not sure isn't valid discussion conduct, and that's why I don't do it.



I know several Israeli ex-soldiers, obviously every able bodied Israeli adult is one. You're not trying to tell me that there aren't Israeli soldiers who enjoy the position of power they hold over Palestinian civilians and abuse it at checkpoints etc? They may be a minority and more likely to be from the poorer elements of Israeli society but they do cause an amount of animosity out of proportion to their numbers and they most certainly do exist.

Yeah they do exist, I think that this kind of attitude is not an Israeli-only trait. These people can be found anywhere in the world in any position from Police officers to managers at fast food restaurants. They certainly do a lot of damage, and I am against this sort of behavior.



Certainly the Israelis I know who tend to be of European origin viewed Jewish Israelis descended from those who had been in the territories from way before 1948 as being a totally different and more brutal group of people. ?
That's just racist.



Another thing is that globalisation is going to hit Israel as hard as it does any other country. Israel's recent economic growth is highly reliant on IT/High tech. Problem with that is (and I'm going to stereotype here) the kind of geeks you need for those fields tend to be highly employable anywhere in the world and tend to be averse to a military lifestyle. If Israel carries on being unstable will the economy be able to tolerate the braindrain caused by these geeks moving off to the US or the EU rather than serving in the reserves?
It already has started to hit, and I think your wrong in your stereotypical assumptions. You'd be amazed how many of those "geeks" are former fighter pilots, special forces or non combative intelligence officer.
Here the army generally tries to capitalize on people's attributes, and gifted programmers usually use their talents in that field. Companies like Intel and Google (in their Israeli branches) usully try to employ these people because of their experience.
Also, because it's mandatory people don't view going to the army as something you'd do for macho or economical purposes.
Those who cheat their way out of enlisting are free to leave any day if they ask me.

[Daniel]

It's not racism. It's an observation. Certainly if I was to say "All black people are brutal people and so on" that would be racist but it does seem to be that people in Africa seem to be central Africa can we very brutal and ruthless people who seem to value life less than us Westerners. We have to get away from this "you mentioned something to do with race and something negative in the same sentence so you must be racist" attitude that some people seem to have. The fact of the matter is how many people have you heard of being hacked up by machette in Australia or the UK? They're simply not brutal people and they value life a lot more then a lot of people in Rwanda and Somalia and other African countries. Is that racist? Nope. It's merely an observation.

If Dylan's friends have experience of these matters then it's not racist. It's simply an observation.

[Daniel]

You'd be amazed how many of those "geeks" are former fighter pilots, special forces or non combative intelligence officer.
Here the army generally tries to capitalize on people's attributes, and gifted programmers usually use their talents in that field. Companies like Intel and Google (in their Israeli branches) usully try to employ these people because of their experience.

Just wanted to pick this one point out. The Israeli engineers that work for Intel are brilliant and have done some very good work. So I don't only have "bad" things to say about Israel and it's people.

[Eki]

I think there is no one which question Finlands right to exist today. If there where I think some Finns would be a bit upset.

I don't think that's a good analogy. When Finland got independent, it was populated by people who were born there and not by immigrants. Israel is largely populated by first, second or third generation immigrants from Europe and America. I believe if they hadn't immigrated there in the first place, there would be a lot less trouble.

[Daniel]

I don't think that's a good analogy. When Finland got independent, it was populated by people who were born there and not by immigrants. Israel is largely populated by first, second or third generation immigrants from Europe and America. I believe if they hadn't immigrated there in the first place, there would be a lot less trouble.
It's not just that though. It's the fact that they had displaced people who were happily living there before.

[Magnus]

Judging by what you say eki and daniel, israel does not have the right to defend what they believe is their territory. Where would the jews go then?

Besides the historic implications of Israels rights to territory in the region is very diminished in the discussion. You simply can not say that isarel has no rights. Hence you can not either say that thay have not got the right to defend themselfes.

But of course, as I have said befire, Israel has no right what so ever to take more land than they are entitled to according to the agreement of 1948, and they also have no right to attack cilivilians or otherwise terrorise palestinians.

Neither have the palestines!

[Eki]

Yeah, like the people on the 747 over Lockerbie, or the peoples on the train in madrid, or the people on Kuta beach on Bali, or the people on the subway in tokyo (sarin), or the people in the Oklahaoma building.
Terroists do not care for who they kill, the cause justifies anything.

Exactly, but first they need a cause.

- Lockerbie was because of US meddling in the Middle East
- Madrid was because Spain joined the US in the invasion and occupation of Iraq
- I don't know about Bali, but I think it might have been against citizens of countries who joined the Iraq war or by some independece movement that exist in Indonesia
- Tokyo was because of some weird cult
- Oklahoma was because of some nutcase

I can't see any cause why muslims or palestinians would make a terror attack against Finland.

[Eki]

I haven't heard of any "Bulldozing the house of anyone thought to be involved in terrorism". It's true houses of mass murderers (suicide bombers- I hope you agree with me that blowing yourself up in the middle of a shopping mall is murder and not military action) were destroyed.
Do you think that it's right to take it on their family members and neighbours? Isn't it a bit like the Nazis did when fighting resistance? If they couldn't get the real culprits, they took their family members or just random villagers and killed or tortured them for revenge.

[Tomi]

When the US invaded Iraq, I was among them who critisiced the action taken, along with thousands of other people in Sweden and throughout the world. All the ususal arguments where brought up: capitalisme, Bush being intellectually challenged, Bush being a murderer, oil and so on.

I was 1 too, and i still have not seen any reason to change my mind, still no WMD found, going to war based on farytails and lies still is wrong, and if doing like this practically what ever country can be the target.

[Rani]

It's not racism. It's an observation.
Generalizing people as being brutal and ruthless on an ethnic basis is racist in my book.



Judging by what you say eki and daniel, israel does not have the right to defend what they believe is their territory. Where would the jews go then?

Besides the historic implications of Israels rights to territory in the region is very diminished in the discussion. You simply can not say that isarel has no rights. Hence you can not either say that thay have not got the right to defend themselfes.

I agree. Israel has a historic right to this land, as the ancient Israelites lived in this area on and off for a few thousand years. I think there's a famous book about it, it'd be nice to look that one up.

[Eki]

Judging by what you say eki and daniel, israel does not have the right to defend what they believe is their territory. Where would the jews go then?


If you ask me the, immigrant ones could go where they came from. There would be more room for the native ones, jews and others, to try to live in peace with each other. Maybe if the country after that would be called Palestine, like I think it was called pre-1948, instead of Israel could also help. People tend to be petty over names, like the Greeks don't let the Former Republic of Yugoslavia Macedonia call themselves just Macedonia, because they think the "real" Macedonia is in Greece.

[Daniel]

Generalizing people as being brutal and ruthless on an ethnic basis is racist in my book.

Good for you! I hope it makes you sleep better at night.

Magnus. I never said Israel doesn't have the right to defend themselves. But a lot of the time they do react in an overly agressive and inciteful manner. Then Hamas, Fatah or Hezbollah attack Israel again and then Israel strike back with unreasonable strength and then more Islamic people get radicalised and then the cycle repeats itself.

I agree that Israel has a right to the land. But I also think that Palestinians have a right to their land and to electricity and economic prosperity. If Israel doesn't realise this their dream of a peaceful homeland will never be realised.

Israel is just like a child at school. It's always someone elses fault and sometimes they might be right but no one ever achieved anything by purely blaming the opposition.

[Rani]

If you ask me the, immigrant ones could go where they came from.
Where would you send the 6 million who parished from "where they came from"?
Where would you send the eight refugees your country sent to die in November 1942?


“The surrender of eight Jewish refugees to the Nazis in 1942 is a stain on Finland ’s history. The wrongdoing cannot be undone nor can it be justified under any circumstances. Neither does the number of the extradited refugees give any grounds for writing off the issue. Every man has but one life and all lives are equally valuable.”
- Paavo Lipponen, Finnish Prime Minister, 2000

Do you know that houses of jews who were deported to the ghettos and camps in ww2 now belong to regular people who didn't pay a buck for them?
I know this because I visited Poland and saw houses of many of my classmates' granparents now containing ordinary Poles. All this means that even if they were to return to their own houses they wouldn't be able to live in them. I have another question for you, please answer sincerely:
Could you imagine yourself as a jew going back and living in a country that betrayed you and sent you to die in the hands of the Nazis?

I say again, Jews have a right to live in Israel. History has proven that eventually they are prosecuted on basis of their religion or race anywhere else. That's just the way it is.

[Daniel]

Where would you send the 6 million who parished from "where they came from"?
Where would you send the eight refugees your country sent to die in November 1942?

Do you know that houses of jews who were deported to the ghettos and camps in ww2 now belong to regular people who didn't pay a buck for them?
I know this because I visited Poland and saw houses of many of my classmates' granparents now containing ordinary Poles. All this means that even if they were to return to their own houses they wouldn't be able to live in them. I have another question for you, please answer sincerely:
Could you imagine yourself as a jew going back and living in a country that betrayed you and sent you to die in the hands of the Nazis?

I say again, Jews have a right to live in Israel. History has proven that eventually they are prosecuted on basis of their religion or race anywhere else. That's just the way it is.

Why not launch airstrikes against the poles. That seems to line up with your current policy.

[Rani]

Why not launch airstrikes against the poles. That seems to line up with your current policy.
I actually agree with you on this one. They got one over the jews so let them enjoy it, who needs justice?

[Daniel]

Yes getting invaded by Germany to start WW2 and then having the Soviet's come through and then have their opressive rule for a few years. The Poles really did well out of the whole deal :rolleyes:

[Malbec]

Generalizing people as being brutal and ruthless on an ethnic basis is racist in my book.

I agree. Israel has a historic right to this land, as the ancient Israelites lived in this area on and off for a few thousand years. I think there's a famous book about it, it'd be nice to look that one up.

Then you'd better have a word with the Israelis I spoke to. Is it still racist when one Jewish subgroup holds strong views about another Jewish subgroup?

I can't remember the Hebrew word they used for the particular Jewish group they were referring to but I do remember them saying that they were descended from the Jews who had never left Palestine or who had migrated back there and had experience of living both under the Ottomans then the British. You probably know more about who they were referring to. And yes, their views were rather negative.

As for house demolitions take a look at the following.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_demolition_in_the_Israeli-Palestinian_conflict

It is a fact that house demolitions preceded suicide bombing and yet has done nothing to deter further terrorist attacks on Israel.

As for the Israeli claim to the land, you can't just brush out the millenia or two when the land was mainly settled by the Palestinians and claim sole rights to it.

Israel clearly has a right to exist and in peace with its neighbours. Unlike some of the other posters here I believe the responsibility for the conflict lies equally across both groups and I most certainly don't believe that if Israel were to withdraw from the Occupied Territories terrorism would become a thing of the past as the others insinuate. However as long as Israelis cannot face the darker things being done in their name I suspect the drive for peace on the Israeli side will not be strong enough.

[Malbec]

Yes getting invaded by Germany to start WW2 and then having the Soviet's come through and then have their opressive rule for a few years. The Poles really did well out of the whole deal :rolleyes:

I think he means that the Poles were even more anti-semetic than the Nazis and therefore Israel might be justified in bombing them....

However I do think your comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is uncalled for. Israel's policies are mainly pre-occupied with self-defense and preserving the safety of its own population however misguided their methods may be. Nazi Germany was plain expansionist.

[Rani]

Then you'd better have a word with the Israelis I spoke to. Is it still racist when one Jewish subgroup holds strong views about another Jewish subgroup?


Yeah it's still racist. I suppose they were Ashkenazim and were talking about Mizrahim which means easterners. It's just as racist as a christian being racist against another christian of a different race.

[Malbec]

Yeah they do exist, I think that this kind of attitude is not an Israeli-only trait. These people can be found anywhere in the world in any position from Police officers to managers at fast food restaurants. They certainly do a lot of damage, and I am against this sort of behavior.

I never suggested this was a trait solely seen in Israelis. Its the result of conscription where the army has little scope to 'quality control' its recruits. The same effect is seen in many other conflicts involving conscription such as Chechnya or Vietnam.


Those who cheat their way out of enlisting are free to leave any day if they ask me.

Then what are your views regarding the religious right, many of whom are subsidised to the eyeballs by government social benefits and who often use religious studies to avoid the draft? Given that the same social group is often the one that is most committed politically to aggressive strategies against both the Palestinians and Israel's Arab neighbours, they are effectively pushing Israel to pay a heavy price yet ensuring that its always someone else's son or daughter in the firing line.

I know that Shinui specifically campaigned about this particular issue but I haven't heard anything about them for quite some time. Where is Israel going on this one?

[Eki]

Where would you send the 6 million who parished from "where they came from"?
Where would you send the eight refugees your country sent to die in November 1942?
What did they have to do with the Palestinians?

Jews can live quite safely both in Germany and in Finland these days, there's no compelling reason for them to emigrate to the Middle East.

[Malbec]

Jews can live quite safely both in Germany and in Finland these days, there's no compelling reason for them to emigrate to the Middle East.

Finns are welcome to live anywhere in the world so there's clearly no compelling reason for them to stay in Finland is there? Maybe the place can be cleared to give the Palestinian displaced somewhere to live of their own.

[Daniel]

Finns are welcome to live anywhere in the world so there's clearly no compelling reason for them to stay in Finland is there? Maybe the place can be cleared to give the Palestinian displaced somewhere to live of their own.
Wouldn't work. Many Palestinians wouldn't be able to live without the fear of indiscriminate shelling or a wall suddenly cutting them off from their job. Perhaps the grass would be just a bit too green.

[Daniel]

I think he means that the Poles were even more anti-semetic than the Nazis and therefore Israel might be justified in bombing them....

However I do think your comparison between Israel and Nazi Germany is uncalled for. Israel's policies are mainly pre-occupied with self-defense and preserving the safety of its own population however misguided their methods may be. Nazi Germany was plain expansionist.
Very true. But still they're persecuting another race of people. It's the complete opposite to what happened to the Japanese. The Japanese had the two terrible A-bombs and though "screw this we're not getting involved in war or military conflicts on a large scale again" whereas Israel is in pole position to empathise with the Palestinians as a race who are being marginalised on the basis of race. Israel isn't rounding palestinians up and gassing them but they're just not helping the situation.

I think to understand why non-German people acted the way they did you need to understand why Hitler singled out the Jews for this treatment and why people weren't unhappy for the Jewish people to be taken out of the large cities. It wasn't because they were the most loved and adored group of religious people. Now quite frankly I can't be bothered to go and kill someone just because I may dislike their race or religion but back before WW2 the Jewish people had obviously made themselves unpopular enough in Europe for people to be complicit in having them rounded up and put into the Ghetto's.

When I was at school we studied the holocaust in History and learnt all about the leadup to the holocaust and what happened and so on. Then we went to a holocaust memorial centre and heard all about the holocaust except for why the Nazi's singled out the Jews for this horrible treatment and I think that's a silly silly thing to do. It's like having a memorial in Hiroshima and talking about how horrible it was and how horrible the USA is but forgetting to say why it happened in the first place.

Now I'll repeat the fact that I don't care for Jews, Muslims, Christians, Sikh's, Buddhists, Atheists and any other religious or non-religious groups we have going. To me they're equally worthless other than perhaps Buddhists who don't go around causing bother for anyone unless they're a repressive Burmese military government of course. I hate white people, black people, green people, purple and red people all as much. We're all equally as useless as each other because we insist on killing each other for no real bloody reason.

[Malbec]

Wouldn't work. Many Palestinians wouldn't be able to live without the fear of indiscriminate shelling or a wall suddenly cutting them off from their job. Perhaps the grass would be just a bit too green.

True, and Israelis would miss the thrill of leaving for work in the morning and wondering if they'd make it there and back or seeing their kids grow up extra fast and become a little haunted as they do their active service.

[Daniel]

True, and Israelis would miss the thrill of leaving for work in the morning and wondering if they'd make it there and back or seeing their kids grow up extra fast and become a little haunted as they do their active service.
But is the problem for the Israeli's not partly self made?

[Malbec]

Very true. But still they're persecuting another race of people. It's the complete opposite to what happened to the Japanese. The Japanese had the two terrible A-bombs and though "screw this we're not getting involved in war or military conflicts on a large scale again" whereas Israel is in pole position to empathise with the Palestinians as a race who are being marginalised on the basis of race. Israel isn't rounding palestinians up and gassing them but they're just not helping the situation.

The Israeli mindset is totally different to quite possibly anyone else on the planet though.

Whether you agree with the idea of a Jewish state or not, you've got a group of people who have worked bloody hard through the centuries to achieve this goal and they're not going to let go of it for any reason, least of all through their own weakness.

People like you and I can see that the Israelis are never going to lose to the Arabs in any war, that they can afford to give back the Occupied Territories in return for peace (although I still don't think that will be enough for some Palestinians) but then we're not the ones who would stand to suffer if the Israelis mess up and end up losing. And if the Israelis lose they know they will lose everything, not just wait like most other states can to pick themselves up off the floor and start again. There will be no second chance for Israel and that isn't something you can say of Germany or Japan or any other country you can name.

I don't think the Israelis are persecuting the Palestinians for the fun of it like the Jews themselves were in Europe, they are doing so for several reasons. Firstly they've fooled themselves into thinking that their presence in the Occupied Territories is only going to be temporary since '67 and a lot of their policies regarding infrastructure provision etc are certainly based along those lines. Secondly they've started to settle the land with Israeli citizens which obviously goes against their occupation only being temporary. Thirdly in order to defend the settlers the Israeli army has to take pretty extreme measures, usually against the Palestinians but recently against settlers too.

In short I don't think the Israelis have been able to admit that they are in fact administering an empire however small it may be. As such they've totally failed to learn from other empires, the Palestinians have risen up against them due to the terrible conditions they live in and due to inexperience the Israelis don't know how to react except through violence. The problem with that is that violence begets violence.

As for the Nazis, they didn't single out the Jews at all. Anyone classified as being undesirable was targetted including gays, communists/socialists, intellectuals, Romany Gypsies etc etc. There is a long history of anti-semetism in Europe, in fact the Nazis had to ask the French to tone it down a bit when they ordered that all French Jews be handed over to be liquidated. The French were too brutal you see, even for Nazi tastes. The Hungarians and Poles were no different. It doesn't surprise me that Jews who managed to escape from those countries find it uncomfortable visiting them even now, let alone settling back there Eki-style.

[Malbec]

But is the problem for the Israeli's not partly self made?

Is the same not true of the Palestinians?

[Daniel]

Is the same not true of the Palestinians?
But at the end of the day if the fighting stops right now who has the ability to live happily? Not the Palestinians.

[Daniel]

The Israeli mindset is totally different to quite possibly anyone else on the planet though.

Whether you agree with the idea of a Jewish state or not, you've got a group of people who have worked bloody hard through the centuries to achieve this goal and they're not going to let go of it for any reason, least of all through their own weakness.

People like you and I can see that the Israelis are never going to lose to the Arabs in any war, that they can afford to give back the Occupied Territories in return for peace (although I still don't think that will be enough for some Palestinians) but then we're not the ones who would stand to suffer if the Israelis mess up and end up losing. And if the Israelis lose they know they will lose everything, not just wait like most other states can to pick themselves up off the floor and start again. There will be no second chance for Israel and that isn't something you can say of Germany or Japan or any other country you can name.

I don't think the Israelis are persecuting the Palestinians for the fun of it like the Jews themselves were in Europe, they are doing so for several reasons. Firstly they've fooled themselves into thinking that their presence in the Occupied Territories is only going to be temporary since '67 and a lot of their policies regarding infrastructure provision etc are certainly based along those lines. Secondly they've started to settle the land with Israeli citizens which obviously goes against their occupation only being temporary. Thirdly in order to defend the settlers the Israeli army has to take pretty extreme measures, usually against the Palestinians but recently against settlers too.

In short I don't think the Israelis have been able to admit that they are in fact administering an empire however small it may be. As such they've totally failed to learn from other empires, the Palestinians have risen up against them due to the terrible conditions they live in and due to inexperience the Israelis don't know how to react except through violence. The problem with that is that violence begets violence.

As for the Nazis, they didn't single out the Jews at all. Anyone classified as being undesirable was targetted including gays, communists/socialists, intellectuals, Romany Gypsies etc etc. There is a long history of anti-semetism in Europe, in fact the Nazis had to ask the French to tone it down a bit when they ordered that all French Jews be handed over to be liquidated. The French were too brutal you see, even for Nazi tastes. The Hungarians and Poles were no different. It doesn't surprise me that Jews who managed to escape from those countries find it uncomfortable visiting them even now, let alone settling back there Eki-style.
If you'd ask me back after WW2 if I agreed (I wasn't born then of course!!!!) I would say they don't deserve their own state because that land belonged to someone else. But now I think they deserve their state because they're there and clearly aren't going to move.

Like you say violence begets violence and that's really what it boils down to.

I think Israel needs to accept that if they give most Palestinians what they want then the bloodshed will eventually end. Reconciliation is possible. You don't see the French constantly bitching about how Germany attacked them in two world wars and the same with Japan and the US. At the end of the day when you've got a roof over your head, a job to go to, food in your belly and no apaches hovering overhead you'd be pretty bloody happy and the idea of strapping plastic explosives to your body and killing some Israeli's will seem a pretty dumb thing to do. There will always be a few rotten apples but their own kind will take care of them IF they're happy. Most people just want food, shelter and happiness!

[Malbec]

But at the end of the day if the fighting stops right now who has the ability to live happily? Not the Palestinians.

True, but the Palestinians have also rejected many good deals. The peace deal Rani quoted at the start of this thread isn't a fantasy of his, it was on the table in front of Yasser Arafat with people like Clinton imploring him to sign it.

If you read it through its unbelievable generous to the Palestinians given the real life politics of the region. They'll probably never be offered anything like it again.

But instead of accepting it, Yasser Arafat decided to push it away, demanding even more, and that wasn't the only time the Palestinians have screwed up negotiations either.

And also, if we have peace now the Palestinians have more to gain economically simply because they're starting from a lower level. The occasional bomb notwithstanding, the Israelis don't have as much to gain from peace as they do.

[Malbec]

At the end of the day when you've got a roof over your head, a job to go to, food in your belly and no apaches hovering overhead you'd be pretty bloody happy and the idea of strapping plastic explosives to your body and killing some Israeli's will seem a pretty dumb thing to do. There will always be a few rotten apples but their own kind will take care of them IF they're happy. Most people just want food, shelter and happiness!

Absolutely 110% true. The problem is getting from here to there!

[Eki]

Finns are welcome to live anywhere in the world so there's clearly no compelling reason for them to stay in Finland is there?
No compelling reason to emigrate either, regardless of religion, which was the point. Only a fool or someone with a death wish would emigrate from peaceful Finland into a war-torn area like the Middle East IMO.

I can understand if East-European Jews emigrate to Israel, but many well-off North American and West-European Jews have moved to Israel as well, which I don't understand.

[Malbec]

I can understand if East-European Jews emigrate to Israel, but many well-off North American and West-European Jews have moved to Israel as well, which I don't understand.

Because people have things other than simple material wellbeing that are important to them? Like the concept of a homeland perhaps?

As a species we'd be pretty low if all we considered were simple economic factors in choosing how to live our lives. In fact life would be quite miserable.

I may not agree with some of the things the Israelis are doing but I can certainly empathise with their desire for a homeland. They aren't living in a warzone because thats their idea of fun Eki. They are living there because they feel that Israel is a place and more importantly an ideal worth living and fighting for and a degree of danger is a price worth paying.

There are plenty of Jews for whom Israel isn't worth the danger, they're the Jews still living around the world.

As a point of interest, have you ever spoken to a Jew about these issues?

[airshifter]

True, but the Palestinians have also rejected many good deals. The peace deal Rani quoted at the start of this thread isn't a fantasy of his, it was on the table in front of Yasser Arafat with people like Clinton imploring him to sign it.

If you read it through its unbelievable generous to the Palestinians given the real life politics of the region. They'll probably never be offered anything like it again.

But instead of accepting it, Yasser Arafat decided to push it away, demanding even more, and that wasn't the only time the Palestinians have screwed up negotiations either.

And also, if we have peace now the Palestinians have more to gain economically simply because they're starting from a lower level. The occasional bomb notwithstanding, the Israelis don't have as much to gain from peace as they do.

Being that the PLO charter called for the destuction of Israel, I don't things will change much in the near future. Most countries with the might of Israel would have removed the Palestinians from the face of the earth after enduring what they have.

Yet Israel still tries for peace and extends the olive branch, which is most often burned rather than accepted.

The UN set a precedent for trying to negotiate with terrorists years ago when dealing with the PLO. I can't help but wonder if the Palestinians hope that this will continue by continued terrorist attacks against innocent Israelis.



And for anyone that does not understand the difference between a military use of force with collateral damage, and intentioal killing of innocents, remember that when the next conflict arises in your country. War is not a fun thing by any means, but laws of war have a need to exist.

[Malbec]

Being that the PLO charter called for the destuction of Israel

That disappeared ages ago, more than a decade in fact.

[airshifter]

That disappeared ages ago, more than a decade in fact.

My point being that it took until 1993(or was it 1994?) for them to make this move, with leadership being the same as the group that refused Israel the right to exist.

It is rather difficult to extend trust and attempts at peace immediately after recognizing a legitimate government that has shown such one sided views in the past. It is even more difficult when the attacks and terrorism tactics essentially remain the same as the previous organization which was not recognized at legitimate.

[Camelopard]

And for anyone that does not understand the difference between a military use of force with collateral damage, and intentioal killing of innocents, remember that when the next conflict arises in your country. War is not a fun thing by any means, but laws of war have a need to exist.

So you don't think that acts committed by the members of Irgun or the Stern Gang against the British in Palestine in 1946 and earlier constituted acts of terrorism?

Acts of terrorism like The King David Hotel bombing, another link in case you missed it first time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

or how about this one

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/jewish-terrorism.htm

Rani, do you think that Menahen Begin was a Terrorist?

[gospeedracer]

i'm not in to politics but i just don't know what they want out there... hope they know what they are doing coz from my end i could sometimes relate them to children who definitely needs guidance...

[leopard]

i'm not in to politics but i just don't know what they want out there... hope they know what they are doing coz from my end i could sometimes relate them to children who definitely needs guidance...
You maybe right, giving guidance to children seems to be easier to do than to adult except teaching them to drive a truck

[Eki]

They are living there because they feel that Israel is a place and more importantly an ideal worth living and fighting for and a degree of danger is a price worth paying.


I bet those people call Muslims "fundamentalists" and wonder why Palestinians want their own land too. Kettle, pot, black.

We are living in AD 2007, not BC 2007. People should really stop taking religions so seriously that they even chose the place they live in based on religion.

[leopard]

I think (probably as I only have one) any religion teach their adherent to respect others and live peacefully.

[Malbec]

I bet those people call Muslims "fundamentalists" and wonder why Palestinians want their own land too. Kettle, pot, black.

We are living in AD 2007, not BC 2007. People should really stop taking religions so seriously that they even chose the place they live in based on religion.

Eki posts like this indicate how much you fail to grasp the complexity of the issue.

The place of Israel in the Jewish identity is largely a secular one despite Judaism mainly being identified as a religion rather than a race. Many of the people who fought to see Israel established weren't particularly religious at all.

Palestinians view themselves as Palestinian first, Muslim and Christian second. Entities like Hamas that are overtly religious in nature are only a recent development.

Religion is only a veneer. The conflict is about two different people squabbling over the same piece of land.

Unfortunately people like you can only see this thing in terms of a religious clash, I guess the reality is too hard to understand.

[Magnus]

Unfortunately people like you can only see this thing in terms of a religious clash, I guess the reality is too hard to understand.

But IMHO religion is the problem, nothing else.

[Eki]

Eki posts like this indicate how much you fail to grasp the complexity of the issue.

The place of Israel in the Jewish identity is largely a secular one despite Judaism mainly being identified as a religion rather than a race. Many of the people who fought to see Israel established weren't particularly religious at all.

Palestinians view themselves as Palestinian first, Muslim and Christian second. Entities like Hamas that are overtly religious in nature are only a recent development.

Religion is only a veneer. The conflict is about two different people squabbling over the same piece of land.

Unfortunately people like you can only see this thing in terms of a religious clash, I guess the reality is too hard to understand.

You used the words "an ideal worth living and fighting". An ideal or a religion, similar things. Even if they are not very religious, they believe they have a right to move and live in Israel/Palestine. I'm a Lutheran, not a very religious one. If I believed I have an inherited right to live Wurtemberg, Germany, where Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the church door, emigrated there with few million Northern European Lutherans and expelled the locals, I'm quite sure the locals would resist.

[Malbec]

But IMHO religion is the problem, nothing else.

Why?

How can you portray this as simple Muslim vs Jew when there are Muslim Arab Israeli citizens who vote, pay tax and serve (voluntarily) in the Israeli army? Many have been killed in the Occupied Territories serving Israel.

What is the role of Christian Arabs on both sides of the conflict in your view then?

Its easy to classify it as a religious war and certainly religion is used by both sides to stir up emotions and support and make the conflict worse, I'm not denying that, but at its core its a squabble over land between two differing people. The majority of the conflict has had a secular flavour to it, its only in the past decade when religious extremists have become louder.

[Malbec]

You used the words "an ideal worth living and fighting". An ideal or a religion, similar things. Even if they are not very religious, they believe they have a right to move and live in Israel/Palestine. I'm a Lutheran, not a very religious one. If I believed I have an inherited right to live Wurtemberg, Germany, where Martin Luther nailed his thesis to the church door, emigrated there with few million Northern European Lutherans and expelled the locals, I'm quite sure the locals would resist.

Don't try and suggest Wurtemburg is as important to Lutherans as Israel/Palestine is to Jews and Muslims (and Christians too).

Judaism isn't a missionary religion. Christianity is. Lutherans can be Lutherans without tracing a family history back to Germany. Jews feel an ancestral link to Israel because the assumption is that since Jews originate from Israel and there is hardly any religious conversion into the religion all Jews theoretically can trace a family history to Israel.

I agree with you that people can't just turn up in any land and demand its theirs because in the depths of time their ancestors used to live there. There would be chaos if this was allowed everywhere. However the reality is that Israel exists and is not going to disappear and they have to find a way of coexisting with their neighbours and vice-versa. None of the things you are posting helps at all in finding a way out of this mess.

[Eki]

Don't try and suggest Wurtemburg is as important to Lutherans as Israel/Palestine is to Jews and Muslims (and Christians too).

I'm not. I'm suggesting that Jews and Muslims should relax, wake up, smell the coffee and realize it's AD 2007 and not BC 2007.

[Eki]

I agree with you that people can't just turn up in any land and demand its theirs because in the depths of time their ancestors used to live there. There would be chaos if this was allowed everywhere.
Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.

[Malbec]

Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.

Neither can Saudi Arabia which has one of the lowest populations per square kilometer of any decent sized country in the world. Your point is?

[Eki]

Neither can Saudi Arabia which has one of the lowest populations per square kilometer of any decent sized country in the world. Your point is?
My point is, it's stupid to move to areas that can't naturally support human populations.

[Rani]

Exactly. Just yesterday I learned there aren't even enough drinking water for everybody in Israel, but they have to specifically make drinking water out of sea water! The place is obviously overpopulated.
Israel (without the territories): 338 people/Km^2
Holland: 399 people/Km^2
How can those poor dutch get around they must bump shoulders all the time. :rolleyes:
Eki, your grasp of religion and idealology is way off.
I guess your reality is that you've never felt the will to fight for anything other than materialistic things. I guess you've never felt injustice in your life. That's good, but it also makes your outlook detached from reality.



Then what are your views regarding the religious right, many of whom are subsidised to the eyeballs by government social benefits and who often use religious studies to avoid the draft? Given that the same social group is often the one that is most committed politically to aggressive strategies against both the Palestinians and Israel's Arab neighbours, they are effectively pushing Israel to pay a heavy price yet ensuring that its always someone else's son or daughter in the firing line.

I know that Shinui specifically campaigned about this particular issue but I haven't heard anything about them for quite some time. Where is Israel going on this one?

Israel seems to change its mind about this in every election. You have to also differentiate between two kinds of very religious jews. Hared Jews (those are the stereotypical jews with black clothing and hats) and religious national jews who are just as religious but also believe in many "universal" values like the fact that they should be in the army. A lot of the latter are the ones that live in the territories as they belive Israel should be from the sea to the Jordan river as said in the bible. These guys go to the army and are usually very motivated to go to the most elite units. Shinui was actually dismantled but this tear in our society still exists. If you ask for my opinion I don't like the fact they "are effectively pushing Israel to pay a heavy price yet ensuring that its always someone else's son or daughter in the firing line."
In their view, the fact they are practicing their religion is also helping Israel defend itself by means of summoning devine intervention.

[Eki]

Israel (without the territories): 338 people/Km^2
Holland: 399 people/Km^2
How can those poor dutch get around they must bump shoulders all the time. :rolleyes:
Eki, your grasp of religion and idealology is way off.
I guess your reality is that you've never felt the will to fight for anything other than materialistic things. I guess you've never felt injustice in your life. That's good, but it also makes your outlook detached from reality.

It's all about adaptation to your surroundings. Non-materialistic things should be the easiest to overcome since they are just states of mind and not concrete.

About the Dutch, I'd guess they have very little dry and infertile deserts unlike much of the Middle East.

[Malbec]

About the Dutch, I'd guess they have very little dry and infertile deserts unlike much of the Middle East.

Yes, its all infertile desert over there which is why Israel and the Occupied Territories' main exports are still agricultural products. Ever heard of Jaffa oranges?

Not really been to the Middle East to see what its really like have you....

Rani thanks for that assessment, did Shinui disappear because 'demand' for its line on that issue disappeared or as the result of politicking/backstabbing?

[Eki]

Yes, its all infertile desert over there which is why Israel and the Occupied Territories' main exports are still agricultural products. Ever heard of Jaffa oranges?


Is any artificial watering used to grow them?

I didn't say all the Middle East is infertile desert. There are oasis even in Saudi Arabia, aren't there?

[Camelopard]

So Rani, since you won't answer my question about Begin, do you think that Irgun and the Stern Gang were terrorists?

They seem to fit the classic profile of a terrorist group to me.

[leopard]

When we blame ourselves, we feel no one else has a right to blame us

[Rani]

So Rani, since you won't answer my question about Begin, do you think that Irgun and the Stern Gang were terrorists?

They seem to fit the classic profile of a terrorist group to me.
I think the bombing of the hotel was a terrorist act, but I also think that giving warning to all in the hotel and giving them a chance to flea means that these people wanted to make a political statement more than they wanted to take lives. Other than that you could find that Begin targeted British installations and posts, which I think is legitimate resistance (that's also why I don't call it terrorism if a Kassam rocket hits Nitzanim army base).
I don't think you can call Begin a terrorist on these grounds, and you can't forget that as PM he orchestrated the peace with Egypt.
Did you know that in Deir Yassin The Irgun and Lehi (you call this the Stern gang) gave up the element of surprise by warning all woman and children to flea before the fighting insued? They were actually warned by loud speaker. Instead of running, they stayed, and a lot of the men dressed up as women in order to kill non suspecting Israelis by confusing them and concealing weapons.
There is that difference of fighting like men and hiding behind local population I keep mentioning again.

[Eki]

There is that difference of fighting like men and hiding behind local population I keep mentioning again.
What would you say about this incident where undercover Israeli agents went to Argentina and kidnapped Eichmann:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/03/obituaries/03malkin.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/R/Religion%20and%20Belief

It's not about the moral of it, since Eichmann certainly got what he deserved, but the principal: You just don't sneak into another sovereign country and kidnap civilians there.

Some may say that the end justifies the means. Maybe, but then they should excuse the Palestinians for using the means they have. They don't have a large organized military with sophisticated weapons like Israel, so they must use what they have: rocks, suicide bombs, molotov cocktails and homemade rockets.

[Rani]

Some may say that the end justifies the means. Maybe, but then they should excuse the Palestinians for using the means they have. They don't have a large organized military with sophisticated weapons like Israel, so they must use what they have: rocks, suicide bombs, molotov cocktails and homemade rockets.
I agree.
Kidnapping a key element in the most ruthless killing machine "man" ever made = throwing rocks at civilians who foray into Ramallah by mistake http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=211229 = suicide bombings in Park Hotel, Netanya in a mass Passover eve; "The Passover Massacre" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_massacre= molotov cocktalis thrown on civilian cars near Al Khadr; I can't link this but Iwas near myself = shooting home made rockets at babies http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1196847352499
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Out of pure curiousity, tell me what would you do if you had a chance to bring the murderer of your (and millions other) grandparents to justice in court but bureaucracy was in the way and he was livin' it large somewhere?

[Eki]

Out of pure curiousity, tell me what would you do if you had a chance to bring the murderer of your (and millions other) grandparents to justice in court but bureaucracy was in the way and he was livin' it large somewhere?
What would you do if millions of foreigners moved in your neighborhood and squeezed you out to some miserable refugee camp?

[Rani]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAHHjfUxERY
favorite quote: "For me life has little value because I'm returning to my lord" - My guess is the girl who says it is about twelve years old. My brother is almost twelve. Most of the time he just plays Maple Story.

[leopard]

Btw what kind of response do you expect from posting that link? It resembles a hopeless life that they don't have anything they can expect from this transitory life because of justice they can't obtain in this life. Has this ever been crossed in your mind?

I think would be much worthwhile to contribute a piece of effort to achieve the real definition of peace in that region, rather than defending who is the rightest? I think this is as simple those refuse the talk of peace deserves to blame.

[Camelopard]

I think the bombing of the hotel was a terrorist act, but I also think that giving warning to all in the hotel and giving them a chance to flea means that these people wanted to make a political statement more than they wanted to take lives. Other than that you could find that Begin targeted British installations and posts, which I think is legitimate resistance (that's also why I don't call it terrorism if a Kassam rocket hits Nitzanim army base).
I don't think you can call Begin a terrorist on these grounds, and you can't forget that as PM he orchestrated the peace with Egypt.
Did you know that in Deir Yassin The Irgun and Lehi (you call this the Stern gang) gave up the element of surprise by warning all woman and children to flea before the fighting insued? They were actually warned by loud speaker. Instead of running, they stayed, and a lot of the men dressed up as women in order to kill non suspecting Israelis by confusing them and concealing weapons.
There is that difference of fighting like men and hiding behind local population I keep mentioning again.

I keep mentioning this again, if Timothy McVie had broadcasted his group's intentions of bombing the building in Oklahoma City and warning people to leave, this would not have made it a terrorist act?

It seems very much to me that there is one law for the zionists and another law for the Palestinians.

Had you seen or read Jimmy Carter's book, "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid"?

[Camelopard]

Does that mean you justify intentional harming of innocent people?

But this is exactly what Israel is doing against the Palestinian people by their illegial use of "Collective Punishment".

[Rani]

Btw what kind of response do you expect from posting that link?
I'm just trying to show the complete absurdity of comparing Israel to Nazi Germany and portraying Palestinians as harmless and innocent. How could someone brought up watching "Children's Club" and brainwashed through all branches of media ever want peace?
Also, what would you do if you were faced with someone who will stop at nothing to see you dead? I guess when there isn't a will to stop the violence (by Hamas and the other groups) there isn't a chance for peace.
Would you negotiate with someone who says "I want peace" but also claims "you don't have a right to exist"?

[leopard]

The sentence may not yet end, you don't have a right to exist here, or you have right to exist but not here, how it sounds? ;)

[Eki]

Would you negotiate with someone who says "I want peace" but also claims "you don't have a right to exist"?
Yes, I would try to talk him to change his mind. Talking does no harm, even when it's not working. Violence does do harm, and it isn't working either. 60 years of violence should be enough to prove it doesn't work.

[Daniel]

I think it goes back to what I said before about people not being bothered with killing each other when they have jobs, electricity and non-bulldozed houses.

[leopard]

True, talking does no harm, the will on talking would reflect seriousness to terminate the violence.

[Camelopard]

If anyone has been 'brainwashed' it is the rest of the world into believing that what ever Israel does is right, because of the terrible horrors that have been perpetrated upon them in the past.

They can treat Palestinains as second class citizens and practise "Collective Punishment" against them.

One big myth that is constantly played out is that Jews were the only ones persecuted by the nazis and kept in concentration camps, when this is plainly not true and I find quite offensive.

I thought the bit about Israel not having the right to exist had been refuted quite a few post ago in this thread.

[Camelopard]

I think it goes back to what I said before about people not being bothered with killing each other when they have jobs, electricity and non-bulldozed houses.

Well said.

[leopard]

If anyone has been 'brainwashed' it is the rest of the world into believing that what ever Israel does is right, because of the terrible horrors that have been perpetrated upon them in the past.
They can treat Palestinains as second class citizens and practise "Collective Punishment" against them.

That's was the bone of contention, if you don't have any problem translating my old posts they said basically the same. :s

[Daniel]

If anyone has been 'brainwashed' it is the rest of the world into believing that what ever Israel does is right, because of the terrible horrors that have been perpetrated upon them in the past.

They can treat Palestinains as second class citizens and practise "Collective Punishment" against them.

One big myth that is constantly played out is that Jews were the only ones persecuted by the nazis and kept in concentration camps, when this is plainly not true and I find quite offensive.

I thought the bit about Israel not having the right to exist had been refuted quite a few post ago in this thread.
That's pretty much it. Israel has backing from the US because of the money but also gets the sympathy vote from the rest because of the Holocaust. In my mind it's 60 years ago. Get over it and move on with life now. Not nice to say but the Russians lost a lot more people in WW2 but don't go on about it all the time.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Yes, I would try to talk him to change his mind. Talking does no harm, even when it's not working. Violence does do harm, and it isn't working either. 60 years of violence should be enough to prove it doesn't work.

How can one talk a militant fanatic into changing his mind if one can't even talk a liberal minded fluffy rounded Finn into recognising the right of a certain democratic state to exist?

[Camelopard]

How can one talk a militant fanatic into changing his mind if one can't even talk a liberal minded fluffy rounded Finn into recognising the right of a certain democratic state to exist?

Your statement sums up exactly what I have been trying to say, which is: "anyone who dares to criticise Israel in any shape or form is for all intents and purposes denying Israel's right to exist and therfore by association anti-semetic!"

I'm not denying the right of Israel to exist, it does and it will, however I would like to see some justice for the Palestinians as well.

[Camelopard]

[quote="Eki"] You just don't sneak into another sovereign country and kidnap civilians there.quote]

A better example of this is the kidnapping from Rome of Mordechai Vanunu in the 1980's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

[Eki]

You just don't sneak into another sovereign country and kidnap civilians there.quote]

A better example of this is the kidnapping from Rome of Mordechai Vanunu in the 1980's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu
True. That was not even morally right or justified like the kidnapping of Eichmann.

[Eki]

How can one talk a militant fanatic into changing his mind if one can't even talk a liberal minded fluffy rounded Finn into recognising the right of a certain democratic state to exist?
It's not me you have to convince. For me it's all the same, I just try to look at it from the Palestinian point of view while you and Rani are looking at it from the Israeli view point.

[Rudy Tamasz]

Your statement sums up exactly what I have been trying to say, which is: "anyone who dares to criticise Israel in any shape or form is for all intents and purposes denying Israel's right to exist and therfore by association anti-semetic!"

I'm not denying the right of Israel to exist, it does and it will, however I would like to see some justice for the Palestinians as well.

Camelopard, you cannot understand the full meaning of my post if you are not aware of the context, which is our verbal fencing that has been going on for years. Right, Eki? ;)

Eki repeatedly said that in his view Israel needs to just disappear from the political map the way East Germany once did. Eki, correct me if I am wrong.

I have no stakes in the Mid-Eastern conflicts. I have not a drop of Jewish blood in my vanes and have always perfectly got along with all Muslims I knew. I am much more pro-peace than I am pro-Israeli. The real difference between me and Eki boils down to the fact that I recognise the ligitimate right of Palestinians to have their state. Eki, on the opposite, thinks that Israel may as well cease existing. He also often sides with Ahmadinejad, who insists that Israel has no place on the map.

Again, the question is, if I wasted a couple years (including my office time ;) ) try to convince a liberal European, do I stand any chance to convince an Islamic fanatic, who has already started fancying nice chicks in paradise where he expects to get upon exploding himself together with a coupe dozens infidels?

[Camelopard]

Camelopard, you cannot understand the full meaning of my post if you are not aware of the context, which is our verbal fencing that has been going on for years. Right, Eki? ;)

Eki repeatedly said that in his view Israel needs to just disappear from the political map the way East Germany once did. Eki, correct me if I am wrong.

I have no stakes in the Mid-Eastern conflicts. I have not a drop of Jewish blood in my vanes and have always perfectly got along with all Muslims I knew. I am much more pro-peace than I am pro-Israeli. The real difference between me and Eki boils down to the fact that I recognise the ligitimate right of Palestinians to have their state. Eki, on the opposite, thinks that Israel may as well cease existing. He also often sides with Ahmadinejad, who insists that Israel has no place on the map.

Again, the question is, if I wasted a couple years (including my office time ;) ) try to convince a liberal European, do I stand any chance to convince an Islamic fanatic, who has already started fancying nice chicks in paradise where he expects to get upon exploding himself together with a coupe dozens infidels?

OK, I did not realise this and that makes me understand some of your postings in the Iran thread, although you must agree that it makes it very difficult for a casual observer to see this if they haven't been around along time. My apologies.

[Camelopard]

I spend a lot of time reading travelogues and came across this one when I did a search on Tajikistan.

http://www.travelblog.org/Bloggers/Carrinos/

I've been readfing about their travels from Chicago through the South Pacific, South East Asia, China and so on.
To say I was suprised when I got to this page is an understatement.

http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-East/Israel/Jerusalem/blog-58106.html

I hadn't read the title as I had just pressed next from their previous journal. I fully expected the usual stuff about Israel and how hard done by they had been and was totally amazed to see at the bottom of the journal comments like this:

"We saw the mosque where in 1994 Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslims prayer, killing 30 and wounding hundreds. In the demonstrations that followed, the Israeli army killed 12 more, then shut down the mosque for nine months, and gave part of it over for a synagogue."

So I did a google on him and came up with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein

A small quote from this site:

"The gravesite has become a pilgrimage site for those with extreme right-wing political views; a plaque near the grave reads 'To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel.' "

"Between the killings and 2000, an estimated 10,000 people have visited the grave"

Back to the original travelogue and another interesting comment:

"After checking out of our hostel, we headed to Hebron in the Palestinian Authority with Abu Hassan (http://www.alternativetours.ps/abuhassan%20final1_files/Page266.htm), a tour guide who has spent his life under Israeli occupation. It remains amazing to us that a people who've seen the effects of oppression don't see the parallels with their treatment of the Palestinians. Simply driving to Hebron was an eye-opening experience. Don't let the media tell you that Ohlmut is getting rid of the settlements - all along the way, we saw new buildings going up, along with the seperation wall that makes it impossible for a Palestinian state to truly exist. Of course, when it's done, the Israelis will offer the Palestinians statehood, and when they refuse, they'll be blamed for being unreasonable." (my underlining).

Also note the photo with the caption: "Your Tax Dollars at Work".

[Rudy Tamasz]

OK, I did not realise this and that makes me understand some of your postings in the Iran thread, although you must agree that it makes it very difficult for a casual observer to see this if they haven't been around along time. My apologies.

Nevermind. Sometimes these forums are a real jungle. :)

[Eki]

Eki repeatedly said that in his view Israel needs to just disappear from the political map the way East Germany once did. Eki, correct me if I am wrong.


True. I'm positive that if all Jews of foreign heritage left Israel, gave back the occupied territories to the neighboring countries and renamed the whole place Palestine, even Ahmadinejad would be happy without any bloodshed.

[Rani]

"We saw the mosque where in 1994 Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslims prayer, killing 30 and wounding hundreds. In the demonstrations that followed, the Israeli army killed 12 more, then shut down the mosque for nine months, and gave part of it over for a synagogue."


A difference between the cultures is that while suicide bombers are revered as heroes and chil role models by Palestinians, Goldstein is seen in mainstream Israel as a filthy murderer/terrorist/general piece of scum (a lot of people who visit the graveside are from overseas and the group he blonged to, Kah is considered a terrorist group outlawed by Israeli government).
This whole post you quoted is very one sided. I think that if you were a soldier and faced with a life threatening situation, you'd rather take a life than have yours taken. These demonstrations were not peaceful (I don't blame them), in fact they were flat-out riots. These soldiers are not "killers". BTW the place where all this insued is called The Patriarchs Cave and his holy to jews as well as muslims (and christians as well). Jews are not allowed inside but for 10 holy days every year. This is only to prevent clashes and to leave the muslims to their prayers.

Concerning this story, I could counter it with a thousand other stories of palestinian terrorism, but I guess the point of Camelopard's posts are to one sidedly show Israel as the bad guy so who am I to interfere...

[Camelopard]

Concerning this story, I could counter it with a thousand other stories of palestinian terrorism, but I guess the point of Camelopard's posts are to one sidedly show Israel as the bad guy so who am I to interfere...

No it isn't, I'm showing that there are 2 sides to every story, one side of which never gets the chance to be told.

Have you read Jimmy Carter's book "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid"? I suppose you are going to tell me that the former President of the USA is an anti-semite?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/23/AR2007012301668.html


' "This is the first time that I've ever been called a liar and a bigot and an anti-Semite and a coward and a plagiarist." Carter paused and squinted at the audience. " '

[Malbec]

A difference between the cultures is that while suicide bombers are revered as heroes and chil role models by Palestinians,

Thats a bit of a one sided portrayal too. Sure there's a significant part of the Palestinian population that congratulates each suicide bomber as a hero but there are significant sections that hate the way the bombers hijack any peace effort and how much they are costing Palestinian society.

I remember a Sunday Times article focusing on a senior Hamas official a couple of years ago. The article was actually more interested in the personal interrelationship between him and his two wives but the journalist asked the official to defend suicide bombing. To his surprise the official said that he couldn't, it was against Islamic religious teaching and was utterly counterproductive for the Palestinian cause. He then went on to explain how many Palestinians had invested their entire life savings after the Oslo peace accords to start up business ventures and had lost everything once the suicide bombings restarted and the cycle of violence kicked off again. They were the biggest casualties on the Palestinian side and few of them were fans of the suicide bombers. He did of course acknowledge that his views weren't in line with Hamas' official policy. I have spoken to quite a few Palestinians who hold a similar line and recognise how 'suicidal' the suicide bombings really are for the Palestinians.

[Rani]

I have spoken to quite a few Palestinians who hold a similar line and recognise how 'suicidal' the suicide bombings really are for the Palestinians.
If those guys were to obtain power, I don't think Israel would be halting the peace process, on the contrary.

[BDunnell]

It's not me you have to convince. For me it's all the same, I just try to look at it from the Palestinian point of view while you and Rani are looking at it from the Israeli view point.

I don't think that trying to look at it from either point of view is especially helpful, given that these are so entrenched as to have made progress extremely difficult at best. The senior representatives of both sides, and their most vocal (and violent) elements, have often proved unable to take a broader view and thus aim for what is important here: peace. Looking at it from the Palestinian point of view doesn't help, because the Palestinian point of view as you see it (in reality, I suspect most Palestinians don't care so long as the bloodshed stops) is not constructive. Refusing to recognise the right of Israel to exist as a state is not a good way to move forward. Likewise, moves towards peace will continue to fail as long as Israel uses force disproportionately and refuses to recognise the fact that the Palestinians have their rights too.

On the issue of alleged anti-Semitism, though, I have to take a firm stance against the way the Israeli government views this matter. It is nothing short of paranoid. The mildest remark, such as those made by the former MP Jenny Tonge when she said that she could understand the circumstances in which some people might want to become suicide bombers, is taken and reported as the gravest insult. Israel really should moderate its attitude to criticism.

[Garry Walker]

How can one talk a militant fanatic into changing his mind if one can't even talk a liberal minded fluffy rounded Finn into recognising the right of a certain democratic state to exist?

The problem with most liberals is that they are the biggest idiots out there. Reasoning with them is like getting investment advice from a drunken homeless man.



On the issue of alleged anti-Semitism, though, I have to take a firm stance against the way the Israeli government views this matter. It is nothing short of paranoid. The mildest remark, such as those made by the former MP Jenny Tonge when she said that she could understand the circumstances in which some people might want to become suicide bombers, is taken and reported as the gravest insult. Israel really should moderate its attitude to criticism. I agree 100%

[Roamy]

On the issue of alleged anti-Semitism, though, I have to take a firm stance against the way the Israeli government views this matter. It is nothing short of paranoid. The mildest remark, such as those made by the former MP Jenny Tonge when she said that she could understand the circumstances in which some people might want to become suicide bombers, is taken and reported as the gravest insult. Israel really should moderate its attitude to criticism.

Well perhaps you could give us a ratio of suicide bombers to population your country vs Israel and then you just may get a idea of why they could get provoked at Tope's statement.

[Camelopard]

Came across another interesting post in my favourite Travelblog site, I started reading this guys blog when he was in China, anyway read the blog and the comments at the bottom and take a good look at the photos.

http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-East/West-Bank/Hebron/blog-104659.html

As usual a small quote:

The first stone had been cast: saliva rains down on us and people jump above one another to be able to deliver their contempt. We are shoved and kicked repeatedly, and even though it is apparent that events are spiraling dangerously out of control, the soldiers who are standing just a few feet behind us at the checkpoint choose to look on impotently as the attacks intensify.


A man lunges from the crowd, smashing Tove, a 19 year old Swedish girl across the face with a bottle. She immediately collapses to the ground clutching her bloodied face in horrified terror. At this point the soldiers come forward and motion at the settlers, in a “ok… that’s enough guys…” motion, amid clapping, cheering and chanting from the crowd.

As Tove lay on the hard concrete floor, blood oozing from her wounds the crowd re-groups, fed by curiosity and growing in energy“We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too!” I now felt a growing sense of apprehension as awareness dawned of the mob’s evil intent and the soldiers’ unwillingness to intervene in any meaningful way. (my underlining)

As a followup to Tove's injuries see this link:

http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2006/11/18/hebron-day-06/

" “The Swedish government is dissatisfied with Israel’s investigation of an attack in the contentious West Bank city of Hebron that left a Swedish activist with a broken cheekbone, the Swedish Foreign Ministry said Tuesday.
“We’re concerned that this hasn’t been followed up, and we intend to speak to the relevant authorities and ask for more information about the incident,” said Petra Hansson, a spokeswoman for the Swedish Foreign Ministry. ” "

[Eki]

As Tove lay on the hard concrete floor, blood oozing from her wounds the crowd re-groups, fed by curiosity and growing in energy“We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too!” I now felt a growing sense of apprehension as awareness dawned of the mob’s evil intent and the soldiers’ unwillingness to intervene in any meaningful way. (my underlining)

Yep, things haven't changed much since Jesus's days. They had the then superpower Rome on their side, now they have the US.

[anthonyvop]

I can't see any reason why it would come. It's not like we've taken their land like Israel or been meddling in their soverignity and internal affairs like the US.
Apparently your Goverment thinks otherwise.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Government+security+chief+wants+better+intelligenc e+against+terrorism/1076153918137

BTW Aren't Finnish Troops part of the UN "Peacekeeping Force" in Israel? Actually one of the casualties of the accidental Israeli shelling of the UN Bunker was a Finnish Soldier.

[Eki]

Apparently your Goverment thinks otherwise.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Government+security+chief+wants+better+intelligenc e+against+terrorism/1076153918137

BTW Aren't Finnish Troops part of the UN "Peacekeeping Force" in Israel? Actually one of the casualties of the accidental Israeli shelling of the UN Bunker was a Finnish Soldier.
They are in Lebanon, not Israel. Israel hasn't much respect for UN. In addition to the bombing, I saw on TV a video where an armoured car of the Finnish UN troops tried to stop a caterpillar of the Israeli military in Lebanon. The caterpillar just pushed the armoured car aside and the Israelis on it flipped the middle finger to the UN troops. Made me quite angry. The Israelis were probably lucky that the UN soldiers are prohibited from using their weapons except in extreme cases of self-defence.

[Malbec]

They are in Lebanon, not Israel. Israel hasn't much respect for UN. In addition to the bombing, I saw on TV a video where an armoured car of the Finnish UN troops tried to stop a caterpillar of the Israeli military in Lebanon. The caterpillar just pushed the armoured car aside and the Israelis on it flipped the middle finger to the UN troops. Made me quite angry. The Israelis were probably lucky that the UN soldiers are prohibited from using their weapons except in extreme cases of self-defence.

The Israelis don't respect the UN at all, neither do they respect any foreigners 'interfering' in their business like the Swedish girl portrayed in the blog above. Like the Arabs they only respect force. They'll respect the UN when UN troops are able to defend themselves but then they won't accept UN troops on their borders in the first place if they have that power.

Its a rare day indeed when any Israeli soldier for example is ever found guilty of killing/wounding foreigners like James Miller, Tom Hurndall and Rachel Corrie let alone Palestinians despite strong evidence of guilt. There's always a convenient excuse to be found and a rather lazy approach to prosecuting the cases. Things really haven't changed much since the USS Liberty got strafed and bombed repeatedly by the Israeli air force and navy in the 6 day war even after they had realised it was an American vessel. Obviously no Israeli was ever punished for that 'mistake'.

They also have a habit of targeting foreign press reporters especially when fighting flares up. I remember an article by the rather fearless Marie Colvin during the second intafada who stated in her reports that there was a definite culture of targeting the press within the Israeli forces to the point that journalists felt it was safer to remove 'press' stickers on their cars to prevent the Israelis from singling them out.

I'm sure that people will claim that the Israeli army is a disciplined fighting force and they are right, it is. This makes it all the more difficult to believe that the targeting of the press etc is not an ingrained part of army culture.

[SOD]

accidental shelling

LOL, since when was shelling anything accidental?

Still living in your state of denial?

[SOD]

Well perhaps you could give us a ratio of suicide bombers to population your country vs Israel and then you just may get a idea of why they could get provoked at Tope's statement.

Ever heard of FARC or tamil Tigers' use of suicide bombers? Hamas are no way the biggest users of suicide bombers.

[anthonyvop]

They are in Lebanon, not Israel. Israel hasn't much respect for UN. In addition to the bombing, I saw on TV a video where an armoured car of the Finnish UN troops tried to stop a caterpillar of the Israeli military in Lebanon. The caterpillar just pushed the armoured car aside and the Israelis on it flipped the middle finger to the UN troops. Made me quite angry. The Israelis were probably lucky that the UN soldiers are prohibited from using their weapons except in extreme cases of self-defence.

Where can I see that video? Sounds like the kind of Vid that would brighten up my day!

[Eki]

Where can I see that video? Sounds like the kind of Vid that would brighten up my day!
I saw in on Finnish TV. I tried to search it on the internet but without success.

[anthonyvop]

I saw in on Finnish TV. I tried to search it on the internet but without success.
Next time you see it try and grab it and post it on youtube.
Call it the 127,897th time that the U.N. has proven itself a useless organization.

[BrentJackson]

No, I mean what's wrong in resistance? There was resistance when the Nazis tried to expand their "Third Reich" to Poland. I don't see much difference in today's Israel and the past "Third Reich". They both want/wanted more "lebensraum" (room to live in) and have a "winner takes it all" attitude. Neither are/were ready to compromise and share.

Eki, if Israel was actually like that, the Palestinians would be gone from the West Bank - either they would have left or been killed by the IDF. I can tell you that many among the more extreme portions of Israeli society want exactly that.

The problem here is not Israel's government, Eki. They want a peaceful solution because after nearly 60 years of war, one has to think that the Israelis have had enough of it and want to go on living their lives. But the Palestinians don't seem to want a peaceful solution, and both want to have their way. That isn't just an Israeli problem.

[SOD]

Call it the 127,897th time that the U.N. has proven itself a useless organization.


what's a useful organisation? or did you believe too much of Gingrich's contract with America? :laugh:

[Malbec]

They want a peaceful solution because after nearly 60 years of war, one has to think that the Israelis have had enough of it and want to go on living their lives.

You'd think so wouldn't you.

However apart from the odd exception like Oslo where I think both sides tried to reach a real agreement (and did) or the Camp David talks at 2000 the Israelis have been very very good at outwardly looking as if they want peace whilst quietly agreeing to expand Jewish settlements in the Occupied Territories and confiscating Palestinian land and doing anything to prevent a real and lasting settlement that gives away too much.

Its very clever really, we see Israeli diplomats prepared to smile and shake hands for the cameras whilst the Palestinians see them offering to give with one hand while taking with the other and break off talks. I guess a lot of people get fooled by that as your statement suggests.

I'm not suggesting that the Palestinians are angels in this of course, they are more than guilty of torpedoing peace talks but the suggestion that the Israelis are the ones wanting peace and the Palestinians not is rather laughable.

[anthonyvop]

or did you believe too much of Gingrich's contract with America? :laugh:
And that is a bad thing?
Reasons to be a conservative:
I pay Taxes.
I own various businesses.
I have seen war.
I have lived in various countries.
I know what it is like to be poor.
I have seen 1st hand how efficient Gov. Agencies can be.
I have lost friends to Islamic/Facist terrorism.
I have lost Family and Friends to Communist/Socialist Terrorists.

And the main reason that I am a conservative:
I can think for myself!

[SOD]

.
.
.
.
.
.
I can think for myself!

and so the rest of us who find your BS wearisome.

[anthonyvop]

and so the rest of us who find your BS wearisome.
HAHAHA
And who might "us" be?

Typical of those on the left who cannot debate facts or issues.

[TOgoFASTER]

^ Lol

[Camelopard]

HAHAHA
And who might "us" be?

Typical of those on the left who cannot debate facts or issues.

I can't say that you have added any facts or issues to this debate :p :.

I don't regard myself as either right wing (conservative) nor left wing (liberal) however I know for a fact that I can think and make decisions for myself........... , even if I can't spell for nuts....

[Camelopard]

Another article to ponder about Jewish Settlements on the eve of GWB's visit.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-hiding-settlement-facts-to-protect-image/2008/01/08/1199554655218.html

Again as usual a small quote:

"THE Israeli Government has told a court that it does not want to reveal the true extent of Jewish settlement in the occupied Palestinian territories because the information would damage its image abroad, a local newspaper has reported."

"The newspaper said that the report showed both veteran settlements and newer "outposts" had been built extensively without legal permits on land deemed as state land by the Israeli military courts and on the private property of local Palestinians."

[Garry Walker]

HAHAHA
And who might "us" be?

Typical of those on the left who cannot debate facts or issues.

yes.
I have also+ noticed it often in life that whenever you meet a really stupid person in life, he will tend to have lefty views on politics.

[Eki]

yes.
I have also+ noticed it often in life that whenever you meet a really stupid person in life, he will tend to have lefty views on politics.
It's probably just because you consider people who don't agree with you stupid.

[Camelopard]

It's probably just because you consider people who don't agree with you stupid.

Succinctly put.

[Camelopard]

I pay Taxes.
I own various businesses.



What, you own a business in the USA and you pay taxes??????

You need to find yourself a better accountant :p .

[anthonyvop]

What, you own a business in the USA and you pay taxes??????

You need to find yourself a better accountant :p .
Stop listening to lefty propaganda.
The richest 3 out of 100 Americans are now paying close to the same amount in income taxes as the other 97% of workers combined.

[Garry Walker]

It's probably just because you consider people who don't agree with you stupid.

If they explain their points well, then not so. Unfortunately I have yet to meet a lefty who is able to do that.

[TOgoFASTER]

Stop listening to lefty propaganda.
The richest 3 out of 100 Americans are now paying close to the same amount in income taxes as the other 97% of workers combined.

Member of the group? LOL
They also make much more than the other 97% combined.
Ask Lou...

[anthonyvop]

They also make much more than the other 97% combined.

So?
What is so wrong with being successful?
What is wrong is a higher tax rate for those who are.

[TOgoFASTER]

So?
What is so wrong with being successful?
What is wrong is a higher tax rate for those who are.

You're not one of them. LOL
Love all the successful mega rich internet posters that have time in their busy days to post nonsense.
I'd go for a flat tax with no bail outs for your rich friends nor written in cheats. Also no more corporate welfare for those so privleged as now exists to their benefit alone. Problem is your fellow mega rich friends would not like it, as they love the safety net of the government dole out and tax loopholes when it comes their way.
We the PEOPLE not we the corporation.

[Eki]

If they explain their points well, then not so. Unfortunately I have yet to meet a lefty who is able to do that.
Maybe you just don't understand what they say.

[anthonyvop]

You're not one of them. LOL
Love all the successful mega rich internet posters that have time in their busy days to post nonsense.
I'd go for a flat tax with no bail outs for your rich friends nor written in cheats. Also no more corporate welfare for those so privleged as now exists to their benefit alone. Problem is your fellow mega rich friends would not like it, as they love the safety net of the government dole out and tax loopholes when it comes their way.
We the PEOPLE not we the corporation.
Flat tax. Equal rate for everyone and no corporate Tax and I would be a Happy Camper.

[TOgoFASTER]

Flat tax. Equal rate for everyone and no corporate Tax and I would be a Happy Camper.

LOL

[Camelopard]

More examples of Collective Punishment by Israel against ordinary Palestinians:

http://news.smh.com.au/eu-urges-israel-to-end-gaza-blackouts/20080121-1n9y.html

As usual a small quote:

"The European Commission has urged Israel to restart fuel supplies to Gaza and open border crossings, saying that Israel's blockade would worsen the situation on the ground and not help prevent attacks.
"I have made clear that I am against this collective punishment of the people of Gaza," EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner said in a statement." (my highlight and underlining)

Also here:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/warning-over-gaza-power-lockdown/2008/01/21/1200764153359.html

[Camelopard]

Another perspective. this article is about an Israel who has been vilified by jewish settlers because of the tours that he conducts into Hebron.
"The man who attracts such hatred from the Hebron settlers has, at only 24, already led a remarkable life. He was described by the celebrated Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, to whom he acted as a guide in the city two years ago, as "one of the righteous this country has". He was a co-founder of Breaking the Silence, the growing group of dissident ex-soldiers – the core of whom served in Hebron at the peak of the intifada like him – who have testified on the persistent abuses they say the military has committed during the years of warfare.

[Camelopard]

Another perspective. this article is about an Israeli who has been vilified by jewish settlers because of the tours that he conducts into Hebron.

"Yehuda Shaul is a religious Israeli who served in the army. Now he runs guided tours highlighting the abuse of Palestinians. It's controversial and dangerous work – so hy does he do it? Donald MacIntyre finds out on a unique tragical history tour"

"The man who attracts such hatred from the Hebron settlers has, at only 24, already led a remarkable life. He was described by the celebrated Peruvian writer Mario Vargas Llosa, to whom he acted as a guide in the city two years ago, as "one of the righteous this country has". He was a co-founder of Breaking the Silence, the growing group of dissident ex-soldiers – the core of whom served in Hebron at the peak of the intifada like him – who have testified on the persistent abuses they say the military has committed during the years of warfare."

"An internal 2003 report produced by the Israel Defence Forces's civil administration cited a lengthy series of legal violations – mainly damage, break-ins and seizure of Palestinian property – by Hebron's Jewish settlers as they "consistently and systematically" worked to "establish and expand" their colony. "The leadership selects a target and broadcasts it a number of ways. Youths/teenagers burgle the building and even if they are driven away in the beginning, they eventually succeed. Youths/teenagers empty/burn the contents ... They enter through a common wall/the yard/narrow passageway between the properties without being noticed and begin to settle in." Adding that the activities of Jews in Hebron can be described as "if carried out under the protection of the Israeli regime", the report added: "The State of Israel looks very bad with regard to the rule of law in Hebron." "

"Certainly, since the beginning of the intifada, Palestinian militants have killed 17 members of the security forces and five civilians – including 10-month-old Shalhevet Pass, shot by a Palestinian sniper in 2001. In Hebron as a whole, according to the ACRI/B'Tselem report, the security forces killed 88 Palestinians in the same period "at least 46 of whom (including nine minors) were not taking part in hostilities at the time they were killed". In addition two Palestinians were killed by settlers, one of them 14-year-old Nasseem Jamjoum, gunned down at her home by settlers in 2003 on the rampage after the shooting of a soldier/settler outside the city. No one was indicted for that shooting. "

"As we pass to the left, leaving a manned Israeli checkpoint to the right, we come to the surreal lane where two Palestinian families still live amid a dozen settler families. We walk past the Abu Ayesha house, protected by wire mesh from the stones and garbage frequently thrown at it by the settlers. It was against this wire mesh that Jewish settler Yifat Alkobi pressed her face while repeatedly hissing "sharmuta" – whore – at her married Palestinian neighbour. The scene was caught in a video recording given to B'Tselem which shocked many Israeli viewers when it was shown on prime-time TV last January – including Tommy Lapid, the former Israeli Justice Minister who lost many of his family in the Holocaust. "In the years that preceded the Holocaust," he wrote, "behind shuttered windows hid terrified Jewish women, exactly like the Arab woman of the Abu-Ayesha family in Hebron." And where, according to testimony given by Taysir Abu Ayesha, Baruch Marzel broke into the house with 10 other settlers in the winter of 2002, beat him and attempted to drag him into the road before he was rescued by his stick-brandishing father.
And then we arrive at the end of the street and the home of Hani Abu Heikel, whose family was one of those who sheltered more than 400 of the Jews who survived the 1929 massacre. He says that the settlers from the neighbouring Al Bakri house have attacked his house with water pipes in the night, that his car has been attacked and burned four times and that in June most of the trees in the olive grove next to his house were ruined by being set on fire. When his son suggested to soldiers – some of whom, on this occasion, helped put the fire out – that they could identify the culprits by means of the ubiquitous cameras, he was told, says Mr Abu Heikel, that the cameras were for "security" – for the settlers' security, that is. The Abu Heikel family, a fixture of the Yehuda Shaul tours, are as pleased to see him as the settlers are displeased. "Yehuda, Yehuda," two-and-a-half-year-old Yara Abu Heikel shouts excitedly. The fact that Yehuda brings Israelis to the house has been, says Abu Heikel, especially valuable for his children. "I welcome it," he says. "I want them to know that the Israelis are not just the settlers. I wanted to show them that there are Jews who are not in conflict with us." "

Read the whole story here:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/a-rough-guide-to-hebron-the-worlds-strangest-guided-tour-highlights-the-abuse-of-palestinians-773018.html

[Camelopard]

Palestinians stage a mass breakout from the Gaza Ghetto:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/25/2146823.htm

"US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has called on Egypt to control its border with the Gaza Strip."

Gee what a suprise, guess she would have said the same thing about the Warsaw Ghetto in WWII.


'Collective punishment'

In New York, UN Security Council talks to hammer out a statement urging an end to the siege dragged on for a fourth day as Washington called for the text to be reworked.
The United States, Israel's staunchest ally, insists the blockade is an act of self-defence but other states have protested at what they term "collective punishment".


Has anyone here read Jimmy Carter's book "Peace not Aparthied"?

[Rani]

I don't recall any kassam rockets fired from The Warsaw Ghetto.
Neither do I recall terrorist cells breaking out of Warsaw in order to kidnap soldiers, attack Eilat and central Israel by means of suicide bombings while entering through the Sinai. I guess it would have been acceptable by you had one of your cities been pommeled by rockets for seven years.
I urge you to go visit Warsaw (and learn how the ghetto was formed - believe me, jews weren't firing rockets at Berlin at the time), Sederot and Gaza before you make such comparisons.

[Daniel]

I don't recall any kassam rockets fired from The Warsaw Ghetto.
Neither do I recall terrorist cells breaking out of Warsaw in order to kidnap soldiers, attack Eilat and central Israel by means of suicide bombings while entering through the Sinai. I guess it would have been acceptable by you had one of your cities been pommeled by rockets for seven years.
I urge you to go visit Warsaw (and learn how the ghetto was formed - believe me, jews weren't firing rockets at Berlin at the time), Sederot and Gaza before you make such comparisons.
The Jews had made themselves unpopular for other reasons before WW2 :)

Firing rockets into someone's house isn't the only way to annoy someone.

[Rani]

The Jews had made themselves unpopular for other reasons before WW2 :)

What reasons could that be?
Must be our long noses, huh?
Or is it the infatuation we have with money?
Could it be because we make Matzah bread with christian blood?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Are these your "unracist observations" again?

[Daniel]

What reasons could that be?
Must be our long noses, huh?
Or is it the infatuation we have with money?
Could it be because we make Matzah bread with christian blood?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Are these your "unracist observations" again?
How are we going to discuss something which involved race by it's nature without actually discussing the reasons which are by nature "racist" :mark:

In Australia the government took a lot of Aboriginal children away from their parents and gave them to white foster parents. Why? Because they thought the Aboriginal parents weren't fit parents because they believed that the aborigines were inferior. Is that racist? Hell yes! Am I racist for pointing it out? No.......

Would you rather have me point out the real reason Jews were persecuted or would you prefer to believe that Hitler was looking for a race to exterminate and opened up the "Dummies guide to different races" at a random page and just happened to pick the Jews by chance? :mark:

[Malbec]

I don't recall any kassam rockets fired from The Warsaw Ghetto.
Neither do I recall terrorist cells breaking out of Warsaw in order to kidnap soldiers, attack Eilat and central Israel by means of suicide bombings while entering through the Sinai. I guess it would have been acceptable by you had one of your cities been pommeled by rockets for seven years.
I urge you to go visit Warsaw (and learn how the ghetto was formed - believe me, jews weren't firing rockets at Berlin at the time), Sederot and Gaza before you make such comparisons.

It seems that after using collective punishment for 50 years the Israelis still aren't learning that it doesn't work.

Targeted strikes against terrorists are fine but blockading an entire land and shutting down hospitals is counterproductive in just about every sense.

Are Israelis ever going to learn this very very simple lesson? Or perhaps the fact that they haven't learnt it despite ample time and opportunity suggests they won't. Rockets and continued attacks are partly the bitter harvest Israel reaps for their stupidity.

[BDunnell]

I don't recall any kassam rockets fired from The Warsaw Ghetto.
Neither do I recall terrorist cells breaking out of Warsaw in order to kidnap soldiers, attack Eilat and central Israel by means of suicide bombings while entering through the Sinai. I guess it would have been acceptable by you had one of your cities been pommeled by rockets for seven years.
I urge you to go visit Warsaw (and learn how the ghetto was formed - believe me, jews weren't firing rockets at Berlin at the time), Sederot and Gaza before you make such comparisons.

If you are suggesting that reminding us about the Holocaust will in some way make those of us who believe that Israel's response to Palestinian aggression is disproportionate think again, you are mistaken, I'm afraid. I see no meaningful connection.

The other point I would make is that the manner in which the Israeli government and certain supporters of it that one hears seek to lump comments against Israeli policy and anti-Semitism together is deeply distasteful.

[Daniel]

If you are suggesting that reminding us about the Holocaust will in some way make those of us who believe that Israel's response to Palestinian aggression is disproportionate think again, you are mistaken, I'm afraid. I see no meaningful connection.

The other point I would make is that the manner in which the Israeli government and certain supporters of it that one hears seek to lump comments against Israeli policy and anti-Semitism together is deeply distasteful.
You'd think that with your flag now wouldn't you ;) :p

[BDunnell]

You'd think that with your flag now wouldn't you ;) :p

Yes, I only chose this flag because an older German one wasn't available. ;)

[Rani]

If you are suggesting that reminding us about the Holocaust will in some way make those of us who believe that Israel's response to Palestinian aggression is disproportionate think again, you are mistaken, I'm afraid. I see no meaningful connection.

The other point I would make is that the manner in which the Israeli government and certain supporters of it that one hears seek to lump comments against Israeli policy and anti-Semitism together is deeply distasteful.
Israeli responses might be disproportionate (I don't think the majority of them aren), and it is certainly your right to think it is. My comment was written to show that if anything is distasteful, It's comparing Israel to nazi Germany.
Had you read the complete thread, you would have seen that I have no problem with anyone having different views to mine, and certainly haven't been calling everyone who opposes my views anti-semitic.

[Daniel]

Israeli responses might be disproportionate (I don't think the majority of them aren), and it is certainly your right to think it is. My comment was written to show that if anything is distasteful, It's comparing Israel to nazi Germany.
Had you read the complete thread, you would have seen that I have no problem with anyone having different views to mine, and certainly haven't been calling everyone who opposes my views anti-semitic.
You were insinuating I was being racist before....................

[Camelopard]

That may well be the case, however when anyone criticises Israel you immediately come back with "what about the holocast and what we have suffered". Yes, I have visited Warsaw and as I have said previuosly I have visited former concentration camps. Even though you may not agree, I know for a fact that Hitler did not only target jews. Communists, homosexuals, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, criminals, POWs and other political prisoners were imprisioned in the camps.

How about some justice for ordinary Palestinians. There seems to be one rule for jews and another rule for arabs

Another interesting article:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/02/2152758.htm

By the way Rani you still haven't answered my question. Have you read Jimmy Carter's book?

[Rani]

That may well be the case, however when anyone criticises Israel you immediately come back with "what about the holocast and what we have suffered". Yes, I have visited Warsaw and as I have said previuosly I have visited former concentration camps. Even though you may not agree, I know for a fact that Hitler did not only target jews. Communists, homosexuals, Gypsies, Jehovah's Witnesses, criminals, POWs and other political prisoners were imprisioned in the camps.

How about some justice for ordinary Palestinians. There seems to be one rule for jews and another rule for arabs

Another interesting article:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/02/2152758.htm

By the way Rani you still haven't answered my question. Have you read Jimmy Carter's book?
Why do you think I believe Jews were the only victims of the Holocaust? I already said earlier in this thread that I know other cultures and races were targeted by the Nazis. I think they deserve just as much recognition for their suffering.



Another interesting article: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1202064575658&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull



No I haven't had a chance to read Jimmy Carter's book.

[BrentJackson]

This is hard to believe, ya know.

Israel is here to stay. Fatah accepts this and wants to get a homeland for the Palestinians. Hamas wants Israel gone and will accept nothing less than that. Eki, if you can't tell the difference you are clearly not looking at it, because its as plain as the sunrise.

Israel's actions against the Palestinians at times are very inappropriate. Blockading Gaza isn't, really. When you have rockets flying from anywhere they get - including school rooftops and playgrounds - what choice does Israel have to stop these rockets? Hamas needs to face the fact that Israel is not going away, and they will be outcasts until that is recognized. Period.

[leopard]

If so, Palestine's land may need to be divided into two region, one for Fatah and for Hamas respectively. Israel can stay wherever Fatah have pointed out for them.

[Camelopard]

After reading this earlier

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-shameful-rejection-1.291142

I thought it better to put in this thread rather than the cartoon one!

When a country like Qatar (which now has the highest GDP per person in the world according to the IMF) wants to help Palestinians in Gaza and to restore diplomatic relations with Israel, you would think the zionists would grab the opportunity with both hands.

This refusal makes it fairly obvious to all and sundry that Israel dosen't want peace with it's middle eastern neighbours.

Actually I really think they are gearing up to attack Lebanon soon and this was indicated to me by locals in Beirut last month. People I spoke to seemed resigned to the fact that israel would attack them again this summer.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-launches-homefront-drill-amid-rising-tensions-on-lebanon-border-1.291604

[Rani]

This refusal makes it fairly obvious to all and sundry that Israel dosen't want peace with it's middle eastern neighbours.


I don't understand it either. Probably an ego thing on behalf of our foreign minister who I think is not doing his job well. Deductiong from this that Israel doesn't want peace is foolish in my view. I would understand a leader's need to have an enemy to unite the people against in poor totalitarian countries like North Korea or Syria but what interest does the leadership of a country in relatively good shape have to profit from this. I'm sure Netanyahu would love to have his name on a peace deal with Syria just like the late Menachem Begin who was also head of the Likud party. Peace with Syria is not possibe while it supplies Hizbuallah. Peace with Lebanon is not possible while it harbours Hizbuallah. Peace with Hamas isn't possible, since their major goal is to exterminate Israel. Peace with Fatah is possible and steps are being taken to get there. What other neigbours do we have? Oh yeah Jordan and Egypt, We already have a peace with them.



Actually I really think they are gearing up to attack Lebanon soon and this was indicated to me by locals in Beirut last month. People I spoke to seemed resigned to the fact that israel would attack them again this summer.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/idf-launches-homefront-drill-amid-rising-tensions-on-lebanon-border-1.291604
Don't you think it's wise to have a homefront drill since Hizbuallah has received Scud shipments (which have a longer range and carry a heavier warhead than the missiles they used in 2006) lately?
I hope a war doesn't start but you must be prepared for any scenario.

[Roamy]

I think Israel is a realist. There will never be peace in the middle east. How long as this been going on??? Israel and the rest need to contain the wars within the middle east. We need to blow out of there and head for Arizona.

[harsha]

Think the main problem is that the Arab States (barring a couple) do not recognize Israel as a seperate country...I don't see how a fruitful discussion can happen if there's no question of recognizing Israel's legitimacy...

I do believe that the palestinians got a raw deal when Israel was formed...but I think Israel is doing somethings right , atleast it is not showing itself as a weakling....and is projecting itself as a country who won't take terrorism lying down..I wish India would follow the same policy but the Indian governments are too much into minority appeasement :(

[Rollo]

I do believe that the palestinians got a raw deal when Israel was formed...

Leviticus 19:33-34
When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

I know that the Palestinians got a raw deal.

[Camelopard]

Don't you think it's wise to have a homefront drill since Hizbuallah has received Scud shipments (which have a longer range and carry a heavier warhead than the missiles they used in 2006) lately?
I hope a war doesn't start but you must be prepared for any scenario.


Most serious commenatators have stated that Hezbollah do not have scuds, it's just another scare campaign by Israel to legitimize an attack Lebanon again.

They are large, not easily hidden and would make a very easy target for Israeli jets which fly over Lebanon constantly. I presume they get lot's of data from these flights plus any satellite up there from which any data would be monitored constantly.

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=166086

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63H1RQ20100418

BEIRUT: Long-range Scud missiles, which Israel has accused Syria of sending to Lebanon’s Hizbullah, seem unlikely weapons of choice for a nimble guerrilla outfit.

“Hizbullah needs to float like butterflies, sting like bees. They don’t need something that lumbers along like an ox,” British defense analyst Charles Heyman said.



About 11 meters (36 feet) long, a Scud usually is fired from a huge wheeled transporter-erector-launcher, backed by support vehicles. A launch needs 45 minutes to prepare, Beaver said.One Israeli official said Hezbollah had received only the missiles to place in "improvised silos," not the launcher and tow truck. It was not immediately clear how the guerrillas could launch the missile without its companion equipment.


Uzi Rubin, a founder of Israel's Arrow anti-missile programme and now a private consultant to the Defense Ministry, voiced surprise at reports of Scuds reaching Hezbollah.
"This is a nonsense move. What do they need Scuds for?" he asked.
"They already have the (Iranian-made) Fateh-110, which has a similar range and, being a solid-fuel rocket, is far less cumbersome. Okay, so Scuds weigh a tone while the Fateh-110 is half a metric tone. Nothing to stop them firing two Fateh-110s."


Syria has said Israel's "fabrications" about Scud deliveries were intended to "raise tension further in the region and to create an atmosphere for probably Israeli aggression."

[harsha]

Leviticus 19:33-34
When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

I know that the Palestinians got a raw deal.

oh well , the bible doesn't mention what's to be done when the "alien" tries to blow himself up :p :

[markabilly]

oh well , the bible doesn't mention what's to be done when the "alien" tries to blow himself up :p :
turn the other cheek, and duck to avoid the body parts

[Rani]

Most serious commenatators have stated that Hezbollah do not have scuds, it's just another scare campaign by Israel to legitimize an attack Lebanon again.

They are large, not easily hidden and would make a very easy target for Israeli jets which fly over Lebanon constantly. I presume they get lot's of data from these flights plus any satellite up there from which any data would be monitored constantly.

http://www.nowlebanon.com/NewsArchiveDetails.aspx?ID=166086

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63H1RQ20100418

BEIRUT: Long-range Scud missiles, which Israel has accused Syria of sending to Lebanon’s Hizbullah, seem unlikely weapons of choice for a nimble guerrilla outfit.

“Hizbullah needs to float like butterflies, sting like bees. They don’t need something that lumbers along like an ox,” British defense analyst Charles Heyman said.



About 11 meters (36 feet) long, a Scud usually is fired from a huge wheeled transporter-erector-launcher, backed by support vehicles. A launch needs 45 minutes to prepare, Beaver said.One Israeli official said Hezbollah had received only the missiles to place in "improvised silos," not the launcher and tow truck. It was not immediately clear how the guerrillas could launch the missile without its companion equipment.


Uzi Rubin, a founder of Israel's Arrow anti-missile programme and now a private consultant to the Defense Ministry, voiced surprise at reports of Scuds reaching Hezbollah.
"This is a nonsense move. What do they need Scuds for?" he asked.
"They already have the (Iranian-made) Fateh-110, which has a similar range and, being a solid-fuel rocket, is far less cumbersome. Okay, so Scuds weigh a tone while the Fateh-110 is half a metric tone. Nothing to stop them firing two Fateh-110s."


Syria has said Israel's "fabrications" about Scud deliveries were intended to "raise tension further in the region and to create an atmosphere for probably Israeli aggression."
I certainly hope this is true. But it doesn't matter either way if they have missiles that can do comparable damage (Fateh 110), does it?
Also, they have proved they can smuggle 'equilibrium upsetting' weapons unnoticed before, such as an anti ship missile which almost sunk INS Hanit in 2006.

In any case, I don't see why a DEFENSIVE drill done to ready civilians is seen as an offensive manuever.

[Captain VXR]

Make the West Bank a Palestinian state, tell the Gazans they can get statehood too of they can get rid of Hamas. Problem solved.

[Daniel]

Make the West Bank a Palestinian state, tell the Gazans they can get statehood too of they can get rid of Hamas. Problem solved.
:rotflmao: Yeah, that's like telling the Northern Irish to get rid of the IRA during the 80's :mark:

[Daniel]

Or you could use the term "Irish" if you don't want to segregate and offend the IRA. :p :)
Or Oirish if I want to offend all of them :D

[Captain VXR]

Daniel - Most Palestinians, especially those in the West Bank, want peace and prosperity. It is extremists and arsehole politicians on BOTH sides who have created the mess that exists today.

If you really want to wind up the Irish, join the Orange Order and make street protests about 'those damn taigs' :p

[Mark in Oshawa]

:rotflmao: Yeah, that's like telling the Northern Irish to get rid of the IRA during the 80's :mark:

Well the Catholics of Ulster had to turn their back on violence before any progress was made. Luckily, people did that, and most people with a brain ignored the Ian Paisley types on the other side and they have a working province now with less threat to the average man. The Palestinians would win a lot more sympathy if they quit putting bombs on their children and sending them into Israeli checkpoints....

[Daniel]

Well the Catholics of Ulster had to turn their back on violence before any progress was made. Luckily, people did that, and most people with a brain ignored the Ian Paisley types on the other side and they have a working province now with less threat to the average man. The Palestinians would win a lot more sympathy if they quit putting bombs on their children and sending them into Israeli checkpoints....
Of course. But the situation was helped along by the fact that the British forces weren't bombing the crap out of people in NI. No one's saying that what the Palestinians are doing is right BUT Israel needs to be the bigger man and do their best not to give the Palestinian people any reasons to want to attack Israel. It's what the UK did in NI, try to give people a reason to NOT attack them and most people stopped resenting them and the support for these extremist groups dried up.

People don't go and blow themselves up at checkpoints for no reason, they do it because they're pissed off.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Of course. But the situation was helped along by the fact that the British forces weren't bombing the crap out of people in NI. No one's saying that what the Palestinians are doing is right BUT Israel needs to be the bigger man and do their best not to give the Palestinian people any reasons to want to attack Israel. It's what the UK did in NI, try to give people a reason to NOT attack them and most people stopped resenting them and the support for these extremist groups dried up.

People don't go and blow themselves up at checkpoints for no reason, they do it because they're pissed off.


Daniel...yes they do when they are being driven by a religious movement that is infused with hatred of anything Jewish traditionally. Remember, the Arab world looked upon Hitler as a great fellow. Furthermore, lets drop the fiction that Israel hasn't tried to make peace with the Palenstians. The deal they had with Arafat with the Oslo Accord in 92 was essentially the two states would normalize relations, and then work on the economic integration but it was dependent upon Arafat's PLO based organization giving Israel security from attack from Palestinian held territory. Israel also pulled out of the Gaza Strip all of its settlers, and there was a political cost internally their government paid for that. It was in vain as it turned out....

The fact is, no one really is on the Palestinian side in a position of power who wants peace. Hamas is running the show now, and they have NEVER once recognized that they will have to co-exist with Israel. When you have THAT going on, it is pretty silly to scold the Israeli's to take the high road. Every time they have even looked at the high road with the Palestinians, it hasn't been reciprocated. The fact is, Isreal signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and get along with both of them. So spare me the fiction that Israel doesn't want peace. War is bad for business when your nation is as tiny and outnumbered as Israel is....and I do think the people there would love to have a break from this nonsense...

[Rani]

Daniel...yes they do when they are being driven by a religious movement that is infused with hatred of anything Jewish traditionally. Remember, the Arab world looked upon Hitler as a great fellow. Furthermore, lets drop the fiction that Israel hasn't tried to make peace with the Palenstians. The deal they had with Arafat with the Oslo Accord in 92 was essentially the two states would normalize relations, and then work on the economic integration but it was dependent upon Arafat's PLO based organization giving Israel security from attack from Palestinian held territory. Israel also pulled out of the Gaza Strip all of its settlers, and there was a political cost internally their government paid for that. It was in vain as it turned out....

The fact is, no one really is on the Palestinian side in a position of power who wants peace. Hamas is running the show now, and they have NEVER once recognized that they will have to co-exist with Israel. When you have THAT going on, it is pretty silly to scold the Israeli's to take the high road. Every time they have even looked at the high road with the Palestinians, it hasn't been reciprocated. The fact is, Isreal signed peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and get along with both of them. So spare me the fiction that Israel doesn't want peace. War is bad for business when your nation is as tiny and outnumbered as Israel is....and I do think the people there would love to have a break from this nonsense...
+1 Every word.


Hamas Principles




The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, given in full below. Following are highlights.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."The charter is a rather classical Islamist (http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/Islamism.htm) document, applied to the local issues. It declares that Jihad (http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/Jihad.htm) (in the sense of armed battle) is the only solution. It cites the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion.htm), a ludicrous anti-Semitic forgery.
The "Zionists" and the freemasons and others are blamed for what Hamas and radical Islamists see as the major calamities of the world, especially the French Revolution.



One of the most ominous aspects of the Charter however, is this:
Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

The implication is clear: Allah promised that the Jews will be murdered, and the Hamas "aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take."

Hamas is not Fatah which has more moderate factions which can be reasoned with. Take a look at Hamas' main principles. They will not stop until every jew is gone from the land and it's all their's. Saying 'Israel needs to be the bigger man' is as silly as telling someone attacked by a rabid dog "be the bigger man, it's only a dog you should let him win". Nonsense. Every person saying that has absolutely no idea what he's talking about and shows a rather shallow understanding of what they hear.

I gotta go hide behind a Gharkad tree now.

[Eki]

Well the Catholics of Ulster had to turn their back on violence before any progress was made. Luckily, people did that, and most people with a brain ignored the Ian Paisley types on the other side and they have a working province now with less threat to the average man. The Palestinians would win a lot more sympathy if they quit putting bombs on their children and sending them into Israeli checkpoints....
They wouldn't win their own country though, if they let Israel to trample on them freely. Even North Ireland is still a part of the UK.

[Eki]

Of course. But the situation was helped along by the fact that the British forces weren't bombing the crap out of people in NI. No one's saying that what the Palestinians are doing is right BUT Israel needs to be the bigger man and do their best not to give the Palestinian people any reasons to want to attack Israel. It's what the UK did in NI, try to give people a reason to NOT attack them and most people stopped resenting them and the support for these extremist groups dried up.

People don't go and blow themselves up at checkpoints for no reason, they do it because they're pissed off.
Spot-on.

[Eki]

I gotta go hide behind a Gharkad tree now.
I hear Easy Drifter is building a Synagogue in my neighborhood. Move here, you'll be safe. You wouldn't even be called a potholderhead like some call Arabs ragheads.

[Rani]

You wouldn't even be called a potholderhead
I find that extremely offensive, and I think it tells a much bigger tale about what you are than what I am.

[Eki]

I find that extremely offensive, and I think it tells a much bigger tale about what you are than what I am.
Don't you think the Arabs are offended when people call them ragheads? And I specifically promised that nobody calls you a potholderhead.

[Eki]

Medieval Siege by Israel:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10193249.stm


Gaza aid flotilla 'leaves Cyprus'
Page last updated at 14:38 GMT, Sunday, 30 May 2010 15:38 UK

A flotilla of ships sailing towards Gaza with aid and activists on board has left Cyprus and will reach its destination on Monday, organisers say.

But Israel says it will stop the boats, calling the campaign a "provocation intended to delegitimise Israel".

The Palestinian territory has been under an Israeli and Egyptian economic blockade for almost three years, with only limited humanitarian aid allowed.

The activists, from the Free Gaza Movement, want to break the blockade.

Israel imposed the measures after the Islamist movement Hamas took power in Gaza.

Hamas has fired thousands of rockets into Israel over the past decade.

'Medieval siege'
For days, human rights activists aboard the flotilla of ships have been saying they are due in Gaza soon, but they are now running days late.

Organisers confirmed that they had left Cyprus on Sunday afternoon, after confusion over their exact plans.

Greta Berlin, of the Free Gaza Movement, told the BBC that the campaign was "extremely well organised".

She told the BBC: "A lot of that confusion is done on purpose because why should we telegraph to the Israeli navy... exactly when it is that we are going to come?"

She said the activists would try to negotiate their entry into Gaza's waters, amid reports that the Israeli navy intends to tow the ships to the nearby city of Ashdod and deport all of those on board.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said the activists were "masquerading as human rights activists" while trying to make a political point.

He said both Israel and Egypt had offered to take the aid into Gaza, but that the activists had shown no interest.

"It appears they're putting their radical politics above the well-being of the people of Gaza," he said.

The BBC's Jon Donnison in Gaza City says there is much political spin being put on the story by both sides.

Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniya says any Israeli action to stop the ships will be an act of "piracy".

Israeli government press officers have been briefing journalists that the aid flotilla is not necessary. Israel says it allows 15,000 tons of aid into Gaza every week.

But the United Nations, which calls the blockade a "Medieval siege", says this is only a fraction of what is needed and less than a quarter of what was coming into Gaza before the blockade was enforced.

[Eki]

Hats off to this elderly Holocaust survivor. Apparently not all Jews use the Holocaust as an excuse for Israeli atrocities:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/05/30/aid-flotilla-organizer-says-ships-set-sail-blockaded-gaza-strip-sunday/


Pro-Palestinian aid flotilla sets sail for blockaded Gaza Strip, Israel braces for showdown
Published May 30, 2010 | Associated Press

HAIFA, Israel (AP) — Hundreds of pro-Palestinian activists, including a Nobel laureate and a Holocaust survivor, set sail Sunday for the Gaza Strip, edging closer to an expected naval showdown with Israeli gunships determined to stop them.

Huwaida Arraf, one of the organizers, said the six-ship flotilla began the journey from international waters off the coast of Cyprus in the afternoon after two days of delays. She said they expected to reach Gaza, about 250 miles (400 kilometers) away, on Monday afternoon, and that two more ships would follow in "a second wave."

The flotilla was "fully prepared for the different scenarios" that might arise, and organizers were hopeful that Israeli authorities would "do what's right" and not stop the convoy, she said.

"We fully intend to go to Gaza regardless of any intimidation of threats of violence against us," she said. "They are going to have to forcefully stop us."

The flotilla, which includes three cargo ships and three passenger ships, is trying to draw attention to Israel's three-year blockade of the Gaza Strip. The boats are carrying materials that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials. The activists said they also were carrying hundreds of electrical-powered wheelchairs, prefabricated homes and water purifiers.


Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said that after a security check, permitted humanitarian aid confiscated from the boats will be transferred to Gaza through authorized channels. However, Israel would not transfer items it has banned from Gaza under its blockade rules. Palmor said that for example, cement would be allowed only if it is tied to a specific project.

This is the ninth time that the Free Gaza movement has tried to ship in humanitarian aid to Gaza since August 2008.

Israel has let ships through five times, but has blocked them from entering Gaza waters since a three-week military offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers in January 2009. The flotilla bound for Gaza is the largest to date.

Some 700 pro-Palestinian activists are on the boats, including 1976 Nobel peace laureate Mairead Corrigan Maguire, European legislators and an elderly Holocaust survivor.

[Rollo]

Don't you think the Arabs are offended when people call them ragheads? And I specifically promised that nobody calls you a potholderhead.

And who the hell is calling them that?

Sorry, but this is a red cardable offence. Boo to you. There's no need for it, ever. Quit it. NOW.

http://www.alloaathletic.co.uk/show-racism-red-card.gif

[Eki]

And who the hell is calling them that?

[/img]
You often hear somebody calling Arabs rag/towel heads, camel jockeys, etc. On this day and age, Arabs and Muslims are more often targets of racism and discrimination than Jews are.

[Eki]

Can anybody still say that Israel doesn't kill civilians on purpose? This is an act of terrorism:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm


Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship

Page last updated at 5:01 GMT, Monday, 31 May 2010 6:01 UK

The Israeli navy has stormed at least one of a convoy of ships carrying humanitarian aid to the Gaza strip, amid reports of casualties on board.

Some reports say two people have been killed and about 30 injured. Israel has declined to comment.

There are members of the European Parliament on those ships. The EU should do something, maybe not to declare a war against Israel, but put at least some sanctions on them.

[Rollo]

You often hear somebody calling Arabs rag/towel heads, camel jockeys, etc. On this day and age, Arabs and Muslims are more often targets of racism and discrimination than Jews are.

Not in "normal" civil society you don't.

Maybe where you are, this might go on but it doesn't excuse it, and it certainly doesn't bear repeating it.
Racism is ugly and it reflects badly on the person who is doing it.

[Eki]

Not in "normal" civil society you don't.

Maybe where you are, this might go on but it doesn't excuse it, and it certainly doesn't bear repeating it.
Racism is ugly and it reflects badly on the person who is doing it.
Internet forums aren't "normal" civil societies.

[Daniel]

Not in "normal" civil society you don't.

Maybe where you are, this might go on but it doesn't excuse it, and it certainly doesn't bear repeating it.
Racism is ugly and it reflects badly on the person who is doing it.

B.S Rollo, I've lost count of how many times I've heard this sort of comment both in Australia and the UK.

[Daniel]

Can anybody still say that Israel doesn't kill civilians on purpose? This is an act of terrorism:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm



There are members of the European Parliament on those ships. The EU should do something, maybe not to declare a war against Israel, but put at least some sanctions on them.
It should be mentioned that this happened in international waters......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

[Woodeye]

I've tried to stay out of politics as much as possible here. But what the israeli have done now, that's just beyond any justifications. There were for example 12 Swedes on board on those ships. If they see themselves being in war, ok then that's their view. But even in war you usually don't attack for example red cross. And this is exactly what they've done here. Ok, it wasn't a red cross ship, but the purpose was the same - to help people in need.

If for once the US could say that this was wrong I'd be happy. But no way that's going to happen.

This is so ugly that it makes me puke.

[Daniel]

I've tried to stay out of politics as much as possible here. But what the israeli have done now, that's just beyond any justifications. There were for example 12 Swedes on board on those ships. If they see themselves being in war, ok then that's their view. But even in war you usually don't attack for example red cross. And this is exactly what they've done here. Ok, it wasn't a red cross ship, but the purpose was the same - to help people in need.

If for once the US could say that this was wrong I'd be happy. But no way that's going to happen.

This is so ugly that it makes me puke.
Hey hey hey! Don't you know the Jews went through the Holocaust? :mad: That means they can do what the hell they want in international waters :rolleyes:

[Woodeye]

Hey hey hey! Don't you know the Jews went through the Holocaust? :mad: That means they can do what the hell they want in international waters :rolleyes:

Sorry, I forgot about that, I apologize. And especially the evil Swedes who have been in war against someone last time in the 14th century (and used Finns for it then) should all be sunk to prevent them destroying the fake-plastic-based-on-religous-nonsense-stories-country of Israel.

[Daniel]

Sorry, I forgot about that, I apologize. And especially the evil Swedes who have been in war against someone last time in the 14th century (and used Finns for it then) should all be sunk to prevent them destroying the fake-plastic-based-on-religous-nonsense-stories-country of Israel.
Well those Swedes are feared the world over. Heck, I know people who liked ABBA just so they wouldn't get angry and go on a murderous rampage......

[Rani]

I've tried to stay out of politics as much as possible here. But what the israeli have done now, that's just beyond any justifications. There were for example 12 Swedes on board on those ships. If they see themselves being in war, ok then that's their view. But even in war you usually don't attack for example red cross. And this is exactly what they've done here. Ok, it wasn't a red cross ship, but the purpose was the same - to help people in need.

If for once the US could say that this was wrong I'd be happy. But no way that's going to happen.

This is so ugly that it makes me puke.
Have you watched the video of the "peace activists" trying to attack the soldier and take his rifle (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10195838.stm)?
What would you do if your gun was taken?

BTW two pistols which had their entire clips femptied at soldiers were found on dead bodies.

They prepared in advance to fight the soldiers and anyone in his right mind would have defended his life against a massive lynching attemp. There is no problem with aid coming to Gaza, hundreds of tons pass daily through land. The organizers were offered to come to Ashdod and unload the supplies over there in order to take them by truck to Gaza. They refused because they wanted shots of violence on the boats taken. Israel has a right to prevent weapons coming into Gaza.

It makes me puke that provocations like this paint Israel as the bad guy when it was all orchestrated by those on the boats in advance. They came looking for blood and they found it.

[DonJippo]

Have you watched the video of the "peace activists" trying to attack the soldier and take his rifle (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10195838.stm)?
What would you do if your gun was taken?

BTW two pistols which had their entire clips femptied at soldiers were found on dead bodies.

What the hell were they doing on the ship? It was in international waters these soldiers had no right to be on that ship.

[Woodeye]

Have you watched the video of the "peace activists" trying to attack the soldier and take his rifle (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10195838.stm)?
What would you do if your gun was taken?

Israel had absolutely no right to get onto the ship in the first place!

[Dave B]

You could argue that the ship's inhabitants reacted badly, but you have to question why Israeli forces felt the need to storm the ship in the first place. If it was, as they claim, to escort the ship to dock then I can't help thinking there were better ways of going about it.

[Rani]

Internet forums aren't "normal" civil societies.
So you are basically saying racist comments against jews are ok in internet forums?

[Eki]

So you are basically saying racist comments against jews are ok in internet forums?
No, I'm saying racist comments against Arabs and Muslims happen on internet forums.

[Daniel]

Israel had absolutely no right to get onto the ship in the first place!

:up:


What the hell were they doing on the ship? It was in international waters these soldiers had no right to be on that ship.

:up:

[Daniel]

You could argue that the ship's inhabitants reacted badly, but you have to question why Israeli forces felt the need to storm the ship in the first place. If it was, as they claim, to escort the ship to dock then I can't help thinking there were better ways of going about it.

If someone storms your ship in international waters I'm fairly sure you've got every right to defend yourself.

[Eki]

Have you watched the video of the "peace activists" trying to attack the soldier and take his rifle (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10195838.stm)?
What would you do if your gun was taken?
Depends on who takes it. You can't assume that peace activists use it against you, they just take it so you can't use it against them.


BTW two pistols which had their entire clips femptied at soldiers were found on dead bodies.
How many soldiers died or wounded?

Most likely Israeli military pistols emptied by Israeli soldiers.

Anyway, it happened on International waters, so the Israelis had no right to enter the ship.