View Full Version : Israel refuses peace negotiations
Depends on who takes it. You can't assume that peace activists use it against you, they just take it so you can't use it against them.
How many soldiers died or wounded?
Most likely Israeli military pistols emptied by Israeli soldiers.
Anyway, it happened on International waters, so the Israelis had no right to enter the ship.
About 8 soldiers wounded, a few severly. Several with gunshot wounds, the others stabbed or clubbed.
I am not sure at all this happened in international waters. If it did it's a stupid mistake but only a technicality for it was going to take place a few hundred meters closer to shore and in Israeli water space.
The people on the boat came prepared with lethal weapons and were about 600 strong. The soldiers started firing lethal rounds only when their lives were at threat. They started by shooting paintballs at the violent people on board. When you try to kill soldiers it should be no surprise to you if those soldiers defend themselves.
No, I'm saying racist comments against Arabs and Muslims happen on internet forums.
Yet you said racist comments against jews and have yet to apologize or withdraw them.
DonJippo
31st May 2010, 13:22
I am not sure at all this happened in international waters. If it did it's a stupid mistake but only a technicality for it was going to take place a few hundred meters closer to shore and in Israeli water space.
It happened 64km out to sea, Israel's water space is 22km but as we know Israeli forces are known to make these sort of "mistakes", firing hospitals, UN peace forces and so on ...
It happened 64km out to sea, Israel's water space is 22km but as we know Israeli forces are known to make these sort of "mistakes", firing hospitals, UN peace forces and so on ...
Do you have evidence for this?
DonJippo
31st May 2010, 13:42
Do you have evidence for this?
For what? That it happened 64 km out to sea or that Israel's water space is 22km or that Israel forces have been firing hospitals, UN peace forces etc?
Yet you said racist comments against jews and have yet to apologize or withdraw them.
What did I say? I said nobody (including me) would call you or other Jews potholderheads like some people call Arabs ragheads. Should I withdraw that and say, yes, we call you potholderheads???? Or what should I withdraw or apologize???
About 8 soldiers wounded, a few severly. Several with gunshot wounds, the others stabbed or clubbed.
I am not sure at all this happened in international waters. If it did it's a stupid mistake but only a technicality for it was going to take place a few hundred meters closer to shore and in Israeli water space.
The people on the boat came prepared with lethal weapons and were about 600 strong. The soldiers started firing lethal rounds only when their lives were at threat. They started by shooting paintballs at the violent people on board. When you try to kill soldiers it should be no surprise to you if those soldiers defend themselves.
Or at least that's what they tell you. I'm sure no independent international news agency or other independent party can verify those claims.
Or at least that's what they tell you. I'm sure no independent international news agency or other independent party can verify those claims.
If a news agency verifies would you admit you were wrong?
What did I say? I said nobody (including me) would call you or other Jews potholderheads like some people call Arabs ragheads. Should I withdraw that and say, yes, we call you potholderheads???? Or what should I withdraw or apologize???
You should stop using that kind of language alltogether.
If a news agency verifies would you admit you were wrong?
If an independent crime scene investigation is done (that means not by Israel), and gunpowder residues are found on the hands of the peace activists and their fingerprints are on the pistols and their magazines so that there is no doubt that Israelis have planted that evidence, then yes. I doubt that will happen. Israel won't allow international investigators on-board of those ships for awhile if ever.
News agency alone is not enough to verify. There are news agencies and then there are "news agencies" (read propaganda agencies).
Daniel
31st May 2010, 15:44
Anyway, it happened on International waters, so the Israelis had no right to enter the ship.
I wonder what international law considers these Israeli's to be? Pirates?
Roamy
31st May 2010, 16:03
What did I say? I said nobody (including me) would call you or other Jews potholderheads like some people call Arabs ragheads. Should I withdraw that and say, yes, we call you potholderheads???? Or what should I withdraw or apologize???
Racism is a crock of sh!t it has exsisted forever and will continue forever. People have freedom of speech and belief. Everyone runs around thinking they are do-gooders with all this political politeness crap. If people accepted ones right to freedom of speech and just have a laugh once in a while the world would be a much better place. Just because the government tells EKI he has to like the Jews do you honestly think he would mend his ways. Do you think EKI sits up there in the sauna using words like potholderhead - sure he does. I always laugh my ass off when I hear the famous "Oh I know some really good Black people" Yea when is the last time you invited one over for dinner? They usually draw a blank. Some peoples beliefs and cultures just don't mix. So people just be realists and accept your beliefs and work to eliminate violence. Now excuse me I have to go watch the Jimmy Swaggart Hour :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Roamy
31st May 2010, 17:14
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
BRUSSELS -- The European Union called for an inquiry into deaths aboard aid ships seized by Israel's navy on Monday and urged Israel to allow the free flow of humanitarian aid to the Gaza Strip.
Do you possibly think the Israelis give a flying _____ about what the surrender monkeys think??? These guys are fighting for their survival and the EU can't even lift a finger to help. What a joke. Merkel to the rescue. You guys just better pray the wind is blowing to the east when the big day arrives !!
These guys are fighting for their survival and the EU can't even lift a finger to help.
Which guys, Palestinians? Yes, you're right the EU should be tougher on Israel. Turkey and the EU countries should send help to Gaza on their warships.
If an independent crime scene investigation is done (that means not by Israel), and gunpowder residues are found on the hands of the peace activists and their fingerprints are on the pistols and their magazines so that there is no doubt that Israelis have planted that evidence, then yes. I doubt that will happen. Israel won't allow international investigators on-board of those ships for awhile if ever.
News agency alone is not enough to verify. There are news agencies and then there are "news agencies" (read propaganda agencies).
I see. You think soldiers shot themselves so they can open fire. right.
Roamy
31st May 2010, 17:46
Which guys, Palestinians? Yes, you're right the EU should be tougher on Israel. Turkey and the EU countries should send help to Gaza on their warships.
you don't get it EKI the EU could not win a war with Israel. You need to befriend those who can kick your ass!!
wonder what would have happen if Iran would have been responsible for his criminal act, my guess is that the president of the missing link would running around to put together a invation posse already.
Roamy
31st May 2010, 18:03
he wouldn't do sh!t just what he has done since day one
odykas
31st May 2010, 18:06
Israel broke their own records today by attacking commercial ships carrying humanitarian help, in international waters.
I wonder what's next.... :down:
harsha
31st May 2010, 18:21
I don't see why Israel had to attack that ship
Jag_Warrior
31st May 2010, 18:30
I wonder what's next.... :down:
Maybe bomb an orphanage or two. Ya never know, babies can be terrorists too. No matter what they do, they can count on their big, dumb protector looking out for them. :rolleyes:
The one positive thing about us running out of money sooner than later: once our body has no more blood in it to suck out, the parasite will leave our body and move on to a new host. Maybe that's why Netanyahu canceled his meeting with Obama. Maybe he's headed to China to check their blood type, and where would be the best place to sink their teeth in.
Daniel
31st May 2010, 18:34
Maybe bomb an orphanage or two. Ya never know, babies can be terrorists too. No matter what they do, they can count on their big, dumb protector looking out for them. :rolleyes:
The one positive thing about us running out of money sooner than later: once our body has no more blood in it to suck out, the parasite will leave our body and move on to a new host. Maybe that's why Netanyahu canceled his meeting with Obama. Maybe he's headed to China to check their blood type, and where would be the best place to sink their teeth in.
:up:
But seriously dude. Remember the Holocaust!!! Those dudes lived through this doncha know!
I see. You think soldiers shot themselves so they can open fire. right.
If they were shot, which I doubt until some independent source verifies it, they might have been shot accidentally in crossfire of their own soldiers or wounded by bullets that bounced off from the ship.
Jag_Warrior
31st May 2010, 18:58
:up:
But seriously dude. Remember the Holocaust!!! Those dudes lived through this doncha know!
Should I ever forget, I'm sure there'll be 5 movies per day on my TV to remind me.
While I'm not discounting their suffering during the Holocaust, they weren't the only people to suffer. And their cry of "Never Again!" has always appeared to me that it just applied to them. They certainly had no problems being one of South Africa's biggest trading partners and suppliers of military goods, while the rest of the world was putting the clamps on the apartheid government there. No, they saw that as a great opportunity to make some money.
And something else that's ALWAYS p!ssed me off is that when one admits that he is opposed to Zionism (and I am!), there will soon be an accusation of anti-Semitism (which I am not!). That's how the Israeli lobby and the Zionists in the U.S. have indoctrinated people to think. It's worked and it continues to work.
My bottomline is, no other country could get away with the sh## that Israel has gotten away with over the years, simply because it has an unflinching ally on the Security Council: the United States of Tail Wags the Dog.
Maybe bomb an orphanage or two. Ya never know, babies can be terrorists too.
True:
http://t4toby.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/slain_gaza_children.jpg
http://www.joe-anybody.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/torture-children-pee.jpg
http://pracownia4.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/gaza-children.jpg
odykas
31st May 2010, 19:52
My bottomline is, no other country could get away with the sh## that Israel has gotten away with over the years, simply because it has an unflinching ally on the Security Council: the United States of Tail Wags the Dog.
Couldn't agree more ... :up: :rolleyes:
Daniel
31st May 2010, 19:59
Jag you couldn't be more correct.
airshifter
31st May 2010, 20:28
Then if everyone thinks that Israel "gets away with everything" simply because of the US, have enough backbone to tell the UN to go to hell and actually do something about it. Quit crying about everything you think the US should or shouldn't do and get your own countries to do something.
Brush up on your German while you are at it, just in case!
Brush up on your German while you are at it, just in case!
It's always funny when Americans tell us that without them we'd be speaking German. That's true. Before WW2, they taught German in Finnish schools and played German music on the Finnish radio. After WW2, they taught English in Finnish schools and played American music on the Finnish radio. For me, it makes no difference if I talk English or German with people who don't speak Finnish, since neither is my native language. Because of the Americans, Finns are speaking English!
Jag_Warrior
31st May 2010, 21:05
Germany? The tail wags the dog worse there than it does here. Modern day Germans have grown up with a guilt complex that is probably unmatched anywhere in the world. You don't see Americans crying in their soup about slavery or what was done to the American Indians the way the Germans bite their lips everytime the Holocaust is mentioned. At least here, one can speak freely about the Holocaust, and most any other topic... no matter how off the wall those beliefs might be. But it's my understanding that taking certain (objectionable) views on the Holocaust in Germany is illegal and one could be jailed. Is that not correct?
No, the tail wags the dog here, and in much of Europe as well. The U.S. will burn its last dollar and let its last son die in Israel's defense. Any country, whether Middle Eastern or European, which goes up against Israel, expect us to go up against you. It is U.S. policy that an attack against Israel is the same as an attack against the United States. Excuse me while I go vomit.
Quit crying about everything you think the US should or shouldn't do and get your own countries to do something.
My country invited the Israeli Ambassador in Finland for a chat. That's usually what they do when Israel does something bad and that's it. Yes, I admit it's lame.
It's always funny when Americans tell us that without them we'd be speaking German. That's true. Before WW2, they taught German in Finnish schools and played German music on the Finnish radio. After WW2, they taught English in Finnish schools and played American music on the Finnish radio. For me, it makes no difference if I talk English or German with people who don't speak Finnish, since neither is my native language. Because of the Americans, Finns are speaking English!
Apparently you would also have no problem adhering to the German way of thinking circa 1940. What americans actually mean is that Europe would have been a part of the nazi 'Empire of a 1000 Years' if it weren't for them, and their right. I know that doesn't bother you.
Israel broke their own records today by attacking commercial ships carrying humanitarian help, in international waters.
I wonder what's next....
Sure, just an innocent commercial ship carrying innocent 'peace activists' with innocent clubs and innocent knifes trying to kill soldiers in an innocent manner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
The one positive thing about us running out of money sooner than later: once our body has no more blood in it to suck out, the parasite will leave our body and move on to a new host. Maybe that's why Netanyahu canceled his meeting with Obama. Maybe he's headed to China to check their blood type, and where would be the best place to sink their teeth in.
That's funny. You think you support us for us? Big mistake.
You give us weapons so we can test them in battle for you, so you could use our ports for your carriers, so you could have an influence in about the only organized country in the middle east. You didn't support us until the seventies and we managed fighting all arab armies with french jets and czech and israeli rifles without you. You're welcme to leave when you think you've had enough.
Two can play the 'demagogue picture game':
http://www.thetorah.tv/library/Terrorist%20Baby.JPG
http://www.al-ghoul.com/images/LIFE_pal_children.jpghttp://www.al-ghoul.com/images/hamas_camp_qassam.jpghttp://melchettmike.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/hamas-child2.jpg
Daniel
31st May 2010, 21:20
Sure, just an innocent commercial ship carrying innocent 'peace activists' with innocent clubs and innocent knifes trying to kill soldiers in an innocent manner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
They were boarded in International waters. They have EVERY right to defend themselves just as container ships have the right to defend themselves against pirates.
Sure, just an innocent commercial ship carrying innocent 'peace activists' with innocent clubs and innocent knifes trying to kill soldiers in an innocent manner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo
Even IF they were (which I doubt), your "innocent" soldiers had no business on that ship and should not have entered it.
If I believed everything the IDF and Israel say, I might also believe that al Qaeda tried to avoid civilian casualties but were overwhelmed by airline passengers who forced them to ram those planes into the WTC buildings.
Which guys, Palestinians? Yes, you're right the EU should be tougher on Israel. Turkey and the EU countries should send help to Gaza on their warships.
Hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid passes over to Gaza each and every day. It's just inspected to make sure they don't smuggle weapons (which they fire into civilian population centers) inside. The flotilla was offered to unload all the aid and leave freely. They decided to go and commit a suicide PR attack. They succeded.
Daniel
31st May 2010, 21:31
Hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid passes over to Gaza each and every day. It's just inspected to make sure they don't smuggle weapons (which they fire into civilian population centers) inside. The flotilla was offered to unload all the aid and leave freely. They decided to go and commit a suicide PR attack. They succeded.
This still doesn't change the fact that they boarded the ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. This is illegal. But illegal means nothing to an Israeli and never will.
Bob Riebe
31st May 2010, 21:48
This still doesn't change the fact that they boarded the ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. This is illegal. But illegal means nothing to an Israeli and never will.
Blockades are done in international waters, so what is your point?
Illegal by what standard. So called international laws are farce with no legal authority to make them absoute.
My country invited the Israeli Ambassador in Finland for a chat. That's usually what they do when Israel does something bad and that's it. Yes, I admit it's lame.
Thats true, but every individual can do, and they should for instance when shopping fruits check the orign.
Daniel
31st May 2010, 21:55
Thats true, but every individual can do, and they should for instance when shopping fruits check the orign.
I will be doing this from now on.
Daniel
31st May 2010, 21:56
Blockades are done in international waters, so what is your point?
Illegal by what standard. So called international laws are farce with no legal authority to make them absoute.
What's that I hear? The sound of hot air? :laugh:
This still doesn't change the fact that they boarded the ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS. This is illegal. But illegal means nothing to an Israeli and never will.
I've read a post of yours lately where you declared proudly how you drove quickly on a public road (while chasing Mark if I'm not mistaken, and how you were also caught doing 20 over the speed limit in Aus). That is ILLEGAL. I guess Daniel breaks the law and endangers others for a cheap thrill or when in a hurry. Israel breaks the law to protect its citizens and to prevent weapons getting into Gaza.
Jag_Warrior
31st May 2010, 22:02
That's funny. You think you support us for us? Big mistake. You give us weapons so we can test them in battle for you,
What effect does a 5.56mm round have on a 12 year old with a slingshot? You really think that information is worth the billions a year we give to Israel? We'd be MUCH better off giving more weapons to warring countries in Africa or South America. At least then we'd have current information and data on what difference our weapons and technology make when roughly equal armies meet in battle.
You're welcme to leave when you think you've had enough.
OK! Great! :bounce: I've had enough. I'm ready to pull up stakes right now. When does the plane leave? Thank you for removing the yoke from the American taxpayer's neck. And I look forward to your support in my quest to repeal the Cranston Amendment. I am against any law or policy which gives Israel (or ANY OTHER COUNTRY) a legal guarantee of U.S. taxpayer funds that's at least equal to their interest costs for that year. I am against any law or policy which gives Israel (or ANY OTHER COUNTRY) interest payments on money that's been borrowed from the U.S. but not yet disbursed. I asked my banker if he'd give me a deal like that and he joked that we'd both wind up in jail over that.
Look, I don't hate your country - I just don't see Israel as being as "special" as Israel claims itself to be. And I'm sick and tired of my country constantly having to shell out money (that we don't have!) and run cover for your country on the Security Council everytime you stick your foot in a pile of ####... which causes that many more countries to hate us.
You say we can leave and keep our money in our pockets. But we both know that the Israeli lobby will never let that happen. Why be a tease? :D
I've read a post of yours lately where you declared proudly how you drove quickly on a public road (while chasing Mark if I'm not mistaken, and how you were also caught doing 20 over the speed limit in Aus). That is ILLEGAL. I guess Daniel breaks the law and endangers others for a cheap thrill or when in a hurry. Israel breaks the law to protect its citizens and to prevent weapons getting into Gaza.
do you seriously belive that any weapons will be found on those ships? speeding and murdering a few civilians is about the same difference like consentration camp and holiday on the beach.
do you seriously belive that any weapons will be found on those ships? speeding and murdering a few civilians is about the same difference like consentration camp and holiday on the beach.
I believe that if that ship was to enter Gaza, ships that would follow it would no doubt be carrying weapons. Hamas is in a big problem now since Egypt is building an underground wall to stop weapons being smuggled from Sinai. The only option for them to smuggle weapons inside is by sea now. Murdering civilians and protecting yourself against a lynch is about the same difference between lying and telling the truth.
Roamy
31st May 2010, 22:33
move israel to north dakota
problems solved
move israel to north dakota
problems solved
really good idea, but check first that there is no indian reservates near by, because the israelis would start build settlements there very soon.
Daniel
1st June 2010, 00:19
LOL. When I was driving behind Mark it was all below the speedlimit :rotflmao:
As for being caught @ 20 over the limit. Have you ever sped in your life? Thought so!
The difference between me and your country is that I don't pretend to be special and am prepared to accept the consequences. If ever I've been caught speeding I've admitted to doing the wrong thing. That's something Israel has NEVER done.
Rollo
1st June 2010, 00:28
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10199480.stm
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu called the incident "murder committed by a state" and said Israel had "lost all legitimacy".
The Turkish Foreign Minister is probably right on this one. Considering that the flotilla originally came from Northern Cyprus and not Turkey, I am wondering exactly what was in those ships.
"Northern Cyprus" itself isn't exactly the most legitimate of states.
If in fact the flotilla was purely humanitarian in nature, then this was essentially an act of state terrorism by Israel, if if wasn't then perhaps there's an element of justification for it.
The problem is that the destination of Gaza is controlled by Hamas. Hamas has in as many words as one of its objectives, the destruction of Israel.
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm
On the Destruction of Israel:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
(Preamble)
The poor people who suffer through all of this are the people of Gaza themselves. I'm sure that a great deal of them are jack of both Israel and Hamas and would rather that everything just stop and they can get on with their lives.
Camelopard
1st June 2010, 02:10
Do you have evidence for this?
All the evidence you need of previous acts.....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/25/AR2006072500260.html
JERUSALEM, July 25 -- An Israeli airstrike hit a United Nations post in southern Lebanon late Tuesday, killing four international observers
Rani will probably come back and say that the ships were told that this was going to happen, there fore it legitimises it.
That after all was his comment in a previous thread on the King David Hotel bombing by the zionist terrorist group Irgun........
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
dunes
1st June 2010, 02:26
I'm just a common American use to our countrys values. I feel as though we could get by better without trade with any other nation. Lets go back to If a person wants something from another country let that person pay the taxes and forget All this crap about we owe you and our soldiers should be put in harms way because you can't defend yourself. See if the bad guys tear up the east and then we fight one country and not several small controversies and our own wars at the same time.I don't mean to upset our allies or throw them to the wolves.A song comes to mind "If you leave me now"- I don't want to have to feel thjis way.
I persoally feel we've helped too many for too long and its time we put the US frist and worried about our future.
I'm honestly saddened to be saying these things but its about time we were more concerned and careful of what we are getting ourselfs into.
I'm not just to refering to the east beither. NAFTA and the mexican drug wars been going on for 30 some years and we have always been fighting a losing war alone. Who comes to our aid.
I'm not triing to be off subject and not irate, just fed up and tired of the US watching our backs in someplace we really don't need to be in.
Bob Riebe
1st June 2010, 02:27
What's that I hear? The sound of hot air? :laugh:
I suppose that is one way to consider international law.
What was your point?
Bob Riebe
1st June 2010, 02:30
move israel to north dakota
problems solved
Wow then we could move N. Dakota to where Israel is and keep a much closer watch a deal much quicker with the muslim radicals.
Good idea.
Camelopard
1st June 2010, 02:33
Should I ever forget, I'm sure there'll be 5 movies per day on my TV to remind me.
While I'm not discounting their suffering during the Holocaust, they weren't the only people to suffer. And their cry of "Never Again!" has always appeared to me that it just applied to them. They certainly had no problems being one of South Africa's biggest trading partners and suppliers of military goods, while the rest of the world was putting the clamps on the apartheid government there. No, they saw that as a great opportunity to make some money.
And something else that's ALWAYS p!ssed me off is that when one admits that he is opposed to Zionism (and I am!), there will soon be an accusation of anti-Semitism (which I am not!). That's how the Israeli lobby and the Zionists in the U.S. have indoctrinated people to think. It's worked and it continues to work.
My bottomline is, no other country could get away with the sh## that Israel has gotten away with over the years, simply because it has an unflinching ally on the Security Council: the United States of Tail Wags the Dog.
Good post.
airshifter
1st June 2010, 05:08
If in fact the flotilla was purely humanitarian in nature, then this was essentially an act of state terrorism by Israel, if if wasn't then perhaps there's an element of justification for it.
I think it's clear that delivery of aid was not the true intention. It was offered several times that any aid could be delivered after inspection, but that offer was declined.
I'm still up in the air on this action myself. I think Israel could have easily just waited until the vessels were within the boundries set forth under the Oslo Accords, then seized the ships. However, at the same time, it seems that there is some grey area in how naval blockades are allowed to be enforced, especially when it is clarified that the vessels in question have full intention of violating the naval blockade.
Hundreds of tons of humanitarian aid passes over to Gaza each and every day. It's just inspected to make sure they don't smuggle weapons (which they fire into civilian population centers) inside. The flotilla was offered to unload all the aid and leave freely. They decided to go and commit a suicide PR attack. They succeded.
The UN says the aid that get through is only fraction of what is needed:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10193249.stm
Israeli government press officers have been briefing journalists that the aid flotilla is not necessary. Israel says it allows 15,000 tons of aid into Gaza every week.
But the United Nations, which calls the blockade a "Medieval siege", says this is only a fraction of what is needed and less than a quarter of what was coming into Gaza before the blockade was enforced.
What effect does a 5.56mm round have on a 12 year old with a slingshot? You really think that information is worth the billions a year we give to Israel? We'd be MUCH better off giving more weapons to warring countries in Africa or South America. At least then we'd have current information and data on what difference our weapons and technology make when roughly equal armies meet in battle.
Or give them to the Palestinians, so that they'd have something else than their homemade rockets that never hit anything but ground.
I believe that if that ship was to enter Gaza, ships that would follow it would no doubt be carrying weapons. Hamas is in a big problem now since Egypt is building an underground wall to stop weapons being smuggled from Sinai. The only option for them to smuggle weapons inside is by sea now. Murdering civilians and protecting yourself against a lynch is about the same difference between lying and telling the truth.
And we all know that Israel does the lying.
Roamy
1st June 2010, 06:32
Wow then we could move N. Dakota to where Israel is and keep a much closer watch a deal much quicker with the muslim radicals.
Good idea.
You have to get the jews out of there to increase the size of the bullseye. :)
Easy Drifter
1st June 2010, 07:26
Airshifter posted very similar to what I was thinking. There is no question this well publized flotilla was a deliberate attempt to break the blockade. Israel had no real choice except to intercept it if they were going to continue an effective blockade.
Right or wrong both Eygpt and Israel are blockading and checking all supplies into Gaza.
Everybody knew that Israel could not let the flotilla through without doing something. They maybe should have done the interception closer to Gaza but naval blockades and interception are nothing new on the open seas. At one time any merchant ship stupid enough to refuse to stop for an inspection by a warship was quite likely going to be sunk. Israel did not go that far.
A lot of the 'shock and horror' is just political posturing.
Should Israel not find any contraband then they should let the supplies proceed. If there is contraband then Israel has the right to seize all including the ships.
I hope they do not and do let everything not considered contraband be forwarded to Gaza.
Also Eki do not try and tell me that Hamas do not lie as well.
Camelopard
1st June 2010, 08:39
An interesting article here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-western-leaders-are-too-cowardly--to-help-save-lives-1987989.html
I like the comparison with the Berlin airlift:
"In 1948, our politicians – the Americans and the British – staged an airlift into Berlin. A starving population (our enemies only three years before) were surrounded by a brutal army, the Russians, who had erected a fence around the city. The Berlin airlift was one of the great moments in the Cold War. Our soldiers and our airmen risked and gave their lives for these starving Germans."
"For it is a fact, is it not, that had Europeans (and yes, the Turks are Europeans, are they not?) been gunned down by any other Middle Eastern army (which the Israeli army is, is it not?) there would have been waves of outrage."
Camelopard
1st June 2010, 09:31
Not really related to this thread however, this guy's comments are so true.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/al-qaida-afghanistan-killed-pakistan-drone
"Specialised in logistic and finance, since 2001 Yazid became the key link between al-Qaida, which is based in Pakistan's tribal areas, and the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan, according to Michael Scheuer, a former head of the CIA cell hunting bin Laden."
"All this is negated by what the Israelis did to that relief convoy," said Scheuer. "Whatever we gained from killing Sheikh Yazid, what the Israelis did will just cause more animosity to the United States. But Americans have a very hard time connecting the dots."
"For it is a fact, is it not, that had Europeans (and yes, the Turks are Europeans, are they not?)
Yes, Turks are Europeans, unlike Israelis, although Israel for some weird reason is in the Eurovision Singing Contest. The least they should do to punish Israel for this atrocity is to ban them from the the Eurovision Singing Contest :p :
No wonder airshifter believes that the UN Security Council resolutions gave the US a permission to invade Iraq. The resolutions and statements of the UN in general are so vague that anybody can understand them like they want:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/06/01/condemns-israeli-raid-calls-probe/
After an emergency meeting and marathon negotiations that lasted nearly 12 hours, the 15 council members finally agreed on a presidential statement. It was weaker than what was initially demanded by the Palestinians, Arabs and Turkey because of objections by the United States, Israel's closest ally.
The Islamic nations had called for condemnation of Monday's attack by Israeli forces on the flotilla "in the strongest terms" and "an independent international investigation."
But the presidential statement that was finally agreed to and read at a formal council meeting instead called for "a prompt, impartial, credible and transparent investigation conforming to international standards." And it only condemned "those acts" that resulted in deaths, without naming Israel.
Mexico's U.N. Ambassador Claude Heller, who took over the council presidency from Lebanon at midnight, said "impartial" meant "independent" and that Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has the responsibility to organize the investigation. He also said it was clear the condemnation referred to the "excessive force" by the Israeli military.
The Palestinians' Mansour said almost all the members of the Security Council support Heller's interpretation. He said the Palestinians and Arabs would press the secretary-general to pursue an independent investigation.
Bob Riebe
1st June 2010, 18:33
"For it is a fact, is it not, that had Europeans (and yes, the Turks are Europeans, are they not?) been gunned down by any other Middle Eastern army (which the Israeli army is, is it not?) there would have been waves of outrage."
That is a lie; there would have been war, period.
The analogy is bogus as how many people were killed by rockets and terrorists in West Berlin?
The analogy is bogus as how many people were killed by rockets and terrorists in West Berlin?
Probably about as many as in Israel, i.e. not many.
Bob Riebe
1st June 2010, 20:33
Probably about as many as in Israel, i.e. not many.
Do you practice making obtuse statements or is it a natural talent?
---------------------------
Here is the number who killed trying to escape INTO West Berlin:
"More Than 1,100 Berlin Wall Victims
More than 1,100 people died trying to escape the former East Germany, according to new research by a prominent victims group presented Tuesday ahead of the 44th anniversary of the building of the Berlin Wall....
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1673538,00.html
VS
A partial death toll of those killed by Palestinian muslim murders:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/8A5B1966-2BBA-4FFC-9C6A-D2F15E290E76/0/suicideattacks20007.jpg
Too hard to find out how many were killed by rockets but dead is dead.
The muslims do not care how they murder, with the homicide bombers being proof positive.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc .htm
Do you practice making obtuse statements or is it a natural talent?
---------------------------
Here is the number who killed trying to escape INTO West Berlin:
"More Than 1,100 Berlin Wall Victims
More than 1,100 people died trying to escape the former East Germany, according to new research by a prominent victims group presented Tuesday ahead of the 44th anniversary of the building of the Berlin Wall....
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1673538,00.html
VS
A partial death toll of those killed by Palestinian muslim murders:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/8A5B1966-2BBA-4FFC-9C6A-D2F15E290E76/0/suicideattacks20007.jpg
Too hard to find out how many were killed by rockets but dead is dead.
The muslims do not care how they murder, with the homicide bombers being proof positive.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc .htm
Wow! They killed 3 in 2007! That's almost a third of those peace activists Israel killed yesterday. Can you now show a similar diagram of those who Israel have killed meanwhile? Palestinians and others. I remember that in 2006 they killed 4 UN military observers in Lebanon, including a Finn, in addition to hundreds if not thousands of Lebanese civilians.
Wow! They killed 3 in 2007!
Not for a lack of trying, though. Even today 2 armed terrorists tried to pass into one of the kibbutzes and go on a killing spree. I'm so sorry we have found ways to deal with terrorism and don't get killed enough for you Eki.
People being killed in delf defense while being lynched is different to firing rockets at population centers, bombing busses filled with children, and how could I forget Samir Kuntar, Lebanon's national hero who killed a 4 year old girl by smashing her head against a rock with the butt of his rifle. Some hero. None of my heros have done that.
Traffic alone kills about 400 people in Finland every year. I wonder why the police isn't out there trying to kill the motorists.
Bob Riebe
1st June 2010, 21:54
Wow! They killed 3 in 2007! That's almost a third of those peace activists Israel killed yesterday. Can you now show a similar diagram of those who Israel have killed meanwhile? Palestinians and others. I remember that in 2006 they killed 4 UN military observers in Lebanon, including a Finn, in addition to hundreds if not thousands of Lebanese civilians.
So, what is your point?
You prefer hundreds murdered every year to single digits- brilliant.
U.N. observers- put yourself in harms way and bad things can happen.
If the muslims were not murdering people they would not be there, or if the palestinian hypocrites would just take back Jordan.
So, what is your point?
You prefer hundreds murdered every year to single digits- brilliant.
No, I'd prefer Israel using force proportional to the threat, now it's excessive. Or better yet, send home the first generation immigrants, withdraw from the occupied territories and give the vacated land back to the Palestinians so that they can found an independent Palestine.
Bob Riebe
1st June 2010, 22:05
No, I'd prefer Israel using force proportional to the threat, now it's excessive.
They are.
Mark in Oshawa
1st June 2010, 22:10
No, I'd prefer Israel using force proportional to the threat, now it's excessive. Or better yet, send home the first generation immigrants, withdraw from the occupied territories and give the vacated land back to the Palestinians so that they can found an independent Palestine.
So when they come down one at a time with paintball guns, they are being heavy handed? I think the guys beating the soldiers with iron bars and tossing them down an extra deck or two were the radicals..
Israel would deserve full condemnation if they did what the North Koreans do, just torpedo the ship. Instead, they had a/c in the rooms they planned to hold anyone in if they captured anyone.
Sometimes a fiasco starts with the fanatics.....
Mark in Oshawa
1st June 2010, 22:15
This latest bit wont help Isreal, but as the facts come out, it is clear the people on the ship wanted something to happen and they provoked the soldiers. The blockade has been around for a while, and this a provocation to start something, and Israel, naively I say walked into it in a sense.
As for the Turk's, they know damned well Israel isn't the problem in the Middle East, and were allies with them for years until the current pro Muslim leaders came to power. This ship and its people shouldn't have 9 dead, but when the Israeli soldiers board the ship the way they did with PAINTBALL Guns...it was clear that this was NOT to be some human rights issue....but somehow things got out of hand...
So when they come down one at a time with paintball guns, they are being heavy handed? I think the guys beating the soldiers with iron bars and tossing them down an extra deck or two were the radicals..
According to the peace activists, the "iron bars" claimed by the Israelis were wooden sticks. You can't tell a difference between an iron bar and a wooden stick in an Israeli shot Youtube video. "Tossing soldiers down an extra deck or two" is also only an Israeli claim. Besides, those soldiers had no business to be on the ship anyway, so they can blame themselves if the peace activists defended themselves. And paintball guns don't kill at least ten people, so the soldiers had hard bullets as well. If there was an independent investigation, which there won't be, it would show that those people didn't die by paintball guns.
Bob Riebe
1st June 2010, 22:23
So when they come down one at a time with paintball guns, they are being heavy handed? I think the guys beating the soldiers with iron bars and tossing them down an extra deck or two were the radicals..
Israel would deserve full condemnation if they did what the North Koreans do, just torpedo the ship. Instead, they had a/c in the rooms they planned to hold anyone in if they captured anyone.
Sometimes a fiasco starts with the fanatics.....
Stupidity has just rewards, and the activists got just rewards.
Mark in Oshawa
1st June 2010, 22:25
According to the peace activists, the "iron bars" claimed by the Israelis were wooden sticks. You can't tell a difference between an iron bar and a wooden stick in an Israeli shot Youtube video. "Tossing soldiers down an extra deck or two" is also only an Israeli claim. Besides, those soldiers had no business to be on the ship anyway, so they can blame themselves if the peace activists defended themselves. And paintball guns don't kill at least ten people, so the soldiers had hard bullets as well. If there was an independent investigation, which there won't be, it would show that those people didn't die by paintball guns.\
No business? International law allows naval vessels or units to inspect ships heading to lands with legal blockades. Careful now...
Your opinion is noted, but your proof is just your opinion or that who would oppose this no matter what. AS for them having real guns, well duuh...they did have those when their guys were getting beaten to a pulp. At some point, the gloves would come off. You cannot escape though the reality the people on board thought nothing of attacking these guys with clubs and sticks and bars so they didn't come down the rope with guns drawn and shooting.
AGain, if Israel is the evil entity you think they are, they just would have sunk the ship....I am still waiting your condemnation for sinking that South Korean frigate...or for the condemnation for the massacre of Muslims by radical groups in Pakistan...
\
No business? International law allows naval vessels or units to inspect ships heading to lands with legal blockades. Careful now...
Your opinion is noted, but your proof is just your opinion or that who would oppose this no matter what. AS for them having real guns, well duuh...they did have those when their guys were getting beaten to a pulp. At some point, the gloves would come off. You cannot escape though the reality the people on board thought nothing of attacking these guys with clubs and sticks and bars so they didn't come down the rope with guns drawn and shooting.
AGain, if Israel is the evil entity you think they are, they just would have sunk the ship....I am still waiting your condemnation for sinking that South Korean frigate...or for the condemnation for the massacre of Muslims by radical groups in Pakistan...
The blockade of Gaza is not legal, it's a "medieval siege", like the UN called it.
U.N. observers- put yourself in harms way and bad things can happen.
So, why do Americans make such a big fuss over their own military deaths?
Daniel
1st June 2010, 22:35
I am still waiting your condemnation for sinking that South Korean frigate
Did you post a condemnation somewhere? Well run for the hills! Mark's a North Korean sympathiser!!!!!!! :p
Stupidity has just rewards, and the activists got just rewards.
You could say the same about the American military deaths.
According to the peace activists, the "iron bars" claimed by the Israelis were wooden sticks. You can't tell a difference between an iron bar and a wooden stick in an Israeli shot Youtube video. "Tossing soldiers down an extra deck or two"
Eki, Don't look at these videos if you want to continue thinking it's all lies. These soldiers were beaten half to death. The soldier thrown from the deck is a major and a squad leader in that force. He was stabbed in the abdomen and then thrown two stories. After that he just plucked the knife out and jumped into the water so they couldn't kill him. I want to know how you would react had you been beaten and stabbed by a mob like that. The soldiers were so unprepared for things to get so violent they only started defending themselves after eight of them were very close to being killed.
The videos Eki shouldn't see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwbCtwoSSpM&feature=related
Bob Riebe
2nd June 2010, 00:58
So, why do Americans make such a big fuss over their own military deaths?
Not related to the topic, unless one is trolling.
Bob Riebe
2nd June 2010, 00:59
You could say the same about the American military deaths.
Only if one is a complete idiot.
Rollo
2nd June 2010, 01:11
An interesting article here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-western-leaders-are-too-cowardly--to-help-save-lives-1987989.html
I like the comparison with the Berlin airlift:
"In 1948, our politicians – the Americans and the British – staged an airlift into Berlin. A starving population (our enemies only three years before) were surrounded by a brutal army, the Russians, who had erected a fence around the city. The Berlin airlift was one of the great moments in the Cold War. Our soldiers and our airmen risked and gave their lives for these starving Germans."
Was West Berlin under the control of a terrorist organization like Gaza is? I must have missed that in history class.
The people within Gaza are not "surrounded by a brutal army" but surrounded by a hostile nation and under the control of two brutal armies who at various stages have also waged bloody battles within their own streets (Hamas and Fatah).
airshifter
2nd June 2010, 02:11
No wonder airshifter believes that the UN Security Council resolutions gave the US a permission to invade Iraq. The resolutions and statements of the UN in general are so vague that anybody can understand them like they want:
Actually, the ability to read and comprehend the specific authority of member nations outlined in the numerous cease fire agreements led me to that very simple conclusion. People that read between the lines might find another answer to the question.
Your entire argument seems to be that since the Israelis shouldn't have been on the vessel, any actions regardless of nature were ok.
Based on that train of thought, Roamy can start identification of illegals in his area so a mob of US citizens can beat them down and stab them, then throw them off a small building or something. Would that be justified to you Eki?
Roamy
2nd June 2010, 06:14
Actually, the ability to read and comprehend the specific authority of member nations outlined in the numerous cease fire agreements led me to that very simple conclusion. People that read between the lines might find another answer to the question.
Your entire argument seems to be that since the Israelis shouldn't have been on the vessel, any actions regardless of nature were ok.
Based on that train of thought, Roamy can start identification of illegals in his area so a mob of US citizens can beat them down and stab them, then throw them off a small building or something. Would that be justified to you Eki?
Actually Air we just want them to stay at home and immigrate legally. George Bush asked for a worker card whereby Mexicans could come and go legally but NO we need their fcuking criminals and lame. Try to go work in Mexico and see how far your get. Why the double standard?? I don't have to do sh!t except support Joe Arpaio who is a "hitter" and just what arizona needs.
Based on that train of thought, Roamy can start identification of illegals in his area so a mob of US citizens can beat them down and stab them, then throw them off a small building or something. Would that be justified to you Eki?
Are we talking about Roamy's neighborhood or international waters? On international waters, it's not justified in any way. If it's in Roamy's neighborhood, it's legally justified if local laws allow it, but not morally justified. In any case Roamy is morally justified to defend himself with necessary means if those illegals attack him or his house like the Israelis attacked the ship (which was comparable to Roamy's house and were turf of the activists). It would not have been justified for the activist to follow fleeing Israelis to the international waters, which they didn't because everything happened on THEIR ship that was sailing on INTERNATIONAL waters and NOT on ISRAELI waters.
I remember when Iran snatched some British soldiers they claimed were on Iranian waters and the Brits claimed they were on international waters. If we had it the Israeli way, that would be a moot point. It would be OK to snatch foreign nationals on international waters. Oh sorry, I forgot the Israeli way is that they can do whatever they want even if others couldn't.
Roamy
2nd June 2010, 07:26
The moral of the story is "Whatever floats your boat" But don't float it in my neighborhood if you don't have ID.
Now with respect to the embargo. Based on actions they have declared that they are under the "War" doctrine. This is what I understand. So I don't know the mile marker they took on the ship but the hard part is that if it is within the boundary of the country it is one thing if it is in international waters it is another and I will accept the fact that Israel right or wrong doesn't give a sh!t. What I think most of you fail to understand is that in the scheme of Nuclear power Israel ranks probably 2 or 3 which means they can do some major damage to the entire region. You guys want to play fcukaround with a power that will do you under. Do you think Lebanon or Palestine is going to blow up Europe - not hardly but Israel can at the drop of a hat. The trouble with you guys is that you are supporting a pig in a horse race. and the fact is if you continue down this path you ain't gonna win. Do you think that in D day for Israel they don't have a few missiles pointed at Germany. Ha get off the dope. You Tires are responsible for your own demise by supporting the wrong side and ultimately you are going to pay the price. Simple as this - If Israel gets attacked big time you die.
Do the research do the math your ass is grass if Iran nukes Israel and you guys just sit on your lame ass criticizing Israel and letting N. Korea go free. And N. Korea is helping Iran get the bomb that goes to Israel who in-turn blows the sh!t out of the middle east and much of the EC. It is apparent when the Muslims are taking over much of your country you are just not the "sharpest knives in the drawer"
The moral of the story is "Whatever floats your boat" But don't float it in my neighborhood if you don't have ID.
Now with respect to the embargo. Based on actions they have declared that they are under the "War" doctrine. This is what I understand. So I don't know the mile marker they took on the ship but the hard part is that if it is within the boundary of the country it is one thing if it is in international waters it is another and I will accept the fact that Israel right or wrong doesn't give a sh!t. What I think most of you fail to understand is that in the scheme of Nuclear power Israel ranks probably 2 or 3 which means they can do some major damage to the entire region. You guys want to play fcukaround with a power that will do you under. Do you think Lebanon or Palestine is going to blow up Europe - not hardly but Israel can at the drop of a hat. The trouble with you guys is that you are supporting a pig in a horse race. and the fact is if you continue down this path you ain't gonna win. Do you think that in D day for Israel they don't have a few missiles pointed at Germany. Ha get off the dope. You Tires are responsible for your own demise by supporting the wrong side and ultimately you are going to pay the price. Simple as this - If Israel gets attacked big time you die.
Do the research do the math your ass is grass if Iran nukes Israel and you guys just sit on your lame ass criticizing Israel and letting N. Korea go free. And N. Korea is helping Iran get the bomb that goes to Israel who in-turn blows the sh!t out of the middle east and much of the EC. It is apparent when the Muslims are taking over much of your country you are just not the "sharpest knives in the drawer"
I think that is very far-ferched. Why would Israel want to aim anything at its allies (Germany, Italy, etc.)?
Unfortunately, Israel knows how to fight wars but not how to portray itself in world media. This has become equally important in the global stage and it has gotten to a point people will justify any move agains Israel. I regret that and invite anyone to open their mind and try to look beyond propaganda. I think that anyone has to visit in the middle east if he/she is to have an unbiased view. The media just doesn't do us justice. Of course a big part of that is our fault.
Concerning the flotilla, I think it was a disaster for Israel. In this current day all media will be biased against us but we walked right into this disaster. Huge faults in the intelligence (they should have known those on board were looking for blood), PR (we only responded long hours after the incident) and the action itself was taken all wrong (coming onto the boat right into those savages' hands and getting into a situation people need to be killed in order for the soldiers to come out of it alive. In public media interviews the soldiers said they weren't prepared to anything close to this. They came for a quiet political protest which ended as a full out attack on them. Anyone would have acted as they did to save their own lives.
The media just doesn't do us justice. Of course a big part of that is our fault.
You can say that again. Stop lying, giving excuses and covering things up, then people might believe you:
http://en.rsf.org/press-freedom-index-2009,1001.html
Israel: operation media crackdown
Operation Cast Lead, Israel’s military offensive against the Gaza Strip, had an impact on the press. As regards its internal situation, Israel sank 47 places in the index to 93rd position. This nose-dive means it has lost its place at the head of the Middle Eastern countries, falling behind Kuwait (60th), United Arab Emirates (86th) and Lebanon (61st).
Israel has begun to use the same methods internally as it does outside its own territory. Reporters Without Borders registered five arrests of journalists, some of them completely illegal, and three cases of imprisonment. The military censorship applied to all the media is also posing a threat to journalists.
As regards its extraterritorial actions, Israel was ranked 150th. The toll of the war was very heavy. Around 20 journalists in the Gaza Strip were injured by the Israeli military forces and three were killed while covering the offensive.
Jag_Warrior
2nd June 2010, 19:15
The media just doesn't do us justice.
:rotflmao:
How about a warning when you're going to make a REALLY funny joke? The way I see it, you now owe me $613 for a new HD monitor - this fruit juice will never clean up! Should I just put this on your (multi-billion $) tab, or would it be possible for me to get a check?
You can swing by the house with the check. We could discuss this in a civil manner. Just don't jump on my roof at night with a paintball gun (or any other kind of gun). To me, a man on the roof with a paintball gun, toy gun or real gun would cause me to begin squeezing the trigger on my AK. And that's no good for anybody. Just bring the check and some beer. We'll chew the fat, and some deer jerky, and work this out.
And no, I will not loan you the $613 so you can pay me the $613. That's the kind of thinking that we're trying to get away from, right?
:rotflmao:
How about a warning when you're going to make a REALLY funny joke? The way I see it, you now owe me $613 for a new HD monitor - this fruit juice will never clean up! Should I just put this on your (multi-billion $) tab, or would it be possible for me to get a check?
You can swing by the house with the check. We could discuss this in a civil manner. Just don't jump on my roof at night with a paintball gun (or any other kind of gun). To me, a man on the roof with a paintball gun, toy gun or real gun would cause me to begin squeezing the trigger on my AK. And that's no good for anybody. Just bring the check and some beer. We'll chew the fat, and some deer jerky, and work this out.
And no, I will not loan you the $613 so you can pay me the $613. That's the kind of thinking that we're trying to get away from, right?
WOW you actually have your own private AK47 (or 74)?
How manly must you be. :dork:
I bet you've used it many times for personal safety reasons. Real men carry automatic weapons, that way if someone you work with gets on your nerves you could go over and settle the score.
Have you been to this area in the last 5 years?
If not than how could you know if the media is judging us fairly or not?
You'll just have to enjoy your fat by your own, or you'll be owing me a pair of shorts. :laugh:
Daniel
2nd June 2010, 19:36
WOW you actually have your own private AK47 (or 74)?
How manly must you be. :dork:
I bet you've used it many times for personal safety reasons. Real men carry automatic weapons, that way if someone you work with gets on your nerves you could go over and settle the score.
Have you been to this area in the last 5 years?
If not than how could you know if the media is judging us fairly or not?
You'll just have to enjoy your fat by your own, or you'll be owing me a pair of shorts. :laugh:
Funnily enough JW doesn't need his nations army invading neighbours because to the credit of the US they don't go out pissing off the neighbours.
Funnily enough JW doesn't need his nations army invading neighbours because to the credit of the US they don't go out pissing off the neighbours.
You're totally correct. They don't invade their neighbours, they invade countries thousands of miles away. They are responsible for anywhere between 50000 and 600000 civilians in Iraq ALONE (not counting Afghanistan).
http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm
Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated - A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.
I believe that is more than the total number of people (counting soldiers lost in war and civilians on all sides) lost in the Arab Israeli conflict over the last 60 years. You're so ill informed it never ceases to amaze me.
Real smart post Daniel.
Daniel
2nd June 2010, 20:00
You're totally correct. They don't invade their neighbours, they invade countries thousands of miles away. They are responsible for anywhere between 50000 and 600000 civilians in Iraq ALONE (not counting Afghanistan).
http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm
I believe that is more than the total number of people (counting soldiers lost in war and civilians on all sides) lost in the Arab Israeli conflict over the last 60 years. Your so ill informed it never ceases to amaze me.
Real smart post Daniel.
You make a good point. But at least the US is smart enough to do its opression outside of missile range.
Face it, you govt is full of morons. If you're going to pick on someone then don't pick on the kid next door even if he is weaker than you.
You make a good point. But at least the US is smart enough to do its opression outside of missile range.
Face it, you govt is full of morons. If you're going to pick on someone then don't pick on the kid next door even if he is weaker than you.
When you'll have your malls and buses exploding, your town being in a shower of rockets, and facing neighbours with about ten times the population and enough oil to buy all the weapons in the world that don't want to co-exist but to wipe you off the face of the earth, maybe then you'll have the right to judge or have the ability to comprehend things you so arrogantly seem to think you understand better than anyone.
Good luck with your boycott, I'd start here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c
Watch it till the end so you could do real damage. :idea:
Face it, you govt is full of morons. If you're going to pick on someone then don't pick on the kid next door even if he is weaker than you.
Good advice. That way you could find your mailbox blown up, a bag of doggy-do on your porch, your car scratched, your house egged or toilet-papered, etc.
Daniel
2nd June 2010, 20:16
**** me Israel invented EVERYTHING
That's the most ridiculous video I've ever seen.
**** me Israel invented EVERYTHING
That's the most ridiculous video I've ever seen.
Try not to laugh too hard or you'll we needing one of these http://www.ptca.org/devices4.html
We all know you aren't excercising as much as you should with you thousand posts per day. I wish you the best of health, boycotting Israel by not using your computer with your chip from Kiryat Gat will probably help that cause. I say go for it.
Try not to laugh too hard or you'll we needing one of these http://www.ptca.org/devices4.html
We all know you aren't excercising as much as you should with you thousand posts per day. I wish you the best of health, boycotting Israel by not using your computer with your chip from Kiryat Gat will probably help that cause. I say go for it.
You can get an equal chip from Taiwan, South Korea or elsewhere.
Good advice. That way you could find your mailbox blown up, a bag of doggy-do on your porch, your car scratched, your house egged or toilet-papered, etc.
How do you explain the fact all those things haven't happened to you then?
I am sure mossad is monitoring this thread and biding their time when to strike your porch with some fresh doggy poo.
Daniel
2nd June 2010, 20:41
Try not to laugh too hard or you'll we needing one of these http://www.ptca.org/devices4.html
We all know you aren't excercising as much as you should with you thousand posts per day. I wish you the best of health, boycotting Israel by not using your computer with your chip from Kiryat Gat will probably help that cause. I say go for it.
Neither of the Intel chips in our PC's here were fabbed in Israel :wave: :kiss:
How do you explain the fact all those things haven't happened to you then?
We are not messing with our neighbors (Russia, Sweden and Norway) and they aren't messing with us.
I am sure mossad is monitoring this thread and biding their time when to strike your porch with some fresh doggy poo.
I wouldn't be surprised one bit. Except if it really were just doggy poo and not some high-explosives disguised as doggy-poo.
Daniel
2nd June 2010, 20:47
I wouldn't be surprised one bit.
I'm afraid I must protest. I'm sure an Israeli invented surprise, therefore you're not allowed to be surprised.
Jag_Warrior
2nd June 2010, 20:53
WOW you actually have your own private AK47 (or 74)?
MAK-47's in a couple of different configurations.
How manly must you be. :dork:
I sure am, and cute too... my mom told me so! :)
I bet you've used it many times for personal safety reasons.
No, thankfully I've never had to pull the trigger on a human target with any weapon I've owned - and I hope that I never have to. I'm not John Wayne or Clint Eastwood and I don't want to be. There are two weapons that either by sight or sound usually convince a perp that it's time to move along: the pump shotgun, when the slide is racked, and the (M)AK-47 (or 74) with a fat drum hanging out of the receiver. On two occasions I've had to show my AK, just so that all interested parties understood where I was coming from. Ya see, meth heads and dope users sometimes have trouble with reality. The sight of a scowling man holding an AK with a huge drum magazine somehow tends to snap them back to reality. Go figure. :dozey: If someone is poor and they need food (deer meat) or firewood, then ask me for it. Like my father and grandfather, I believe that if a man is (truly) down and out, and I can help him, I'll do what I can. But if you come on my family's land and try to steal from me or take what's not yours (or shoot my deer and leave most of the meat on the ground)... yeah, it's very likely that some sh## is going to get stirred. I'm not unique in that belief - and it doesn't make me a "bad dude" or a "manly man". That's just how people are where I live. Mind your own business. Don't f### with others... and don't let them f### with you. Most of the "natives" get that, so we have a very low crime rate here. It's the outsiders who tend to get themsleves into trouble. Mr. AK just holds their attention while the rules get explained to them. When all a doper/firewood thief can say after hearing the riot act read to him is, "f###in' eh, man... that thing is the sh##!!! nah, you ain't gonna see me again!"... I guess he gets the point.
Whether it's a country or a man, people have to learn (one way or another) to abide by the rules. That applies to your country and your Middle Eastern neighbors. You boys & girls need to learn to play nice together. You stole their land, just like my people stole the Indians' land. OK, that's done now. We're not going back in time in either case. Draw a line in the sand. You stay on your side (and stop building houses on disputed territory) and they stay on their side (and they need to stop shooting rockets at you). Both of you need to get over yourselves before someone with my mindset becomes President and beats the living crap out of BOTH of you... just to have some peace and quiet for a change.
Real men carry automatic weapons, that way if someone you work with gets on your nerves you could go over and settle the score.
I'll keep that in mind. If I can find one at a decent price, I may someday get a Class III license or tax stamp and buy an H&K MP5 (man, I love those things!). But for now, I'll just stick with my semi-auto toys... and my size 13 foot. :D
Have you been to this area in the last 5 years?
If not than how could you know if the media is judging us fairly or not?
No, I've never been there. I thought you meant the global media outlets (or specifically the Western media outlets). Israel gets treated with kid gloves over here by the media (IMO). "Fair & balanced" it ain't.
You'll just have to enjoy your fat by your own, or you'll be owing me a pair of shorts. :laugh:
You don't know what you're missing out on. My spicy deer jerky and a 12 pack of good beer (you choose) is like Heaven on earth. The offer remains open. Just don't land on the roof!
Camelopard
2nd June 2010, 20:53
We are not messing with our neighbors (Russia, Sweden and Norway) and they aren't messing with us.
I wouldn't be surprised one bit. Except if it really were just doggy poo and not some high-explosives disguised as doggy-poo.
It's the ones with the forged passports that you have to be really worried about..... :)
I'm afraid I must protest. I'm sure an Israeli invented surprise, therefore you're not allowed to be surprised.
You totally misunderstood me. Of course Eki can be surprised (even though he shouldn't be because he didn't understand my earlier post). Every one can be surprised. It'll hurt your boycott though. BTW This is the time to throw away your portable storage devices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-Systems
Forget the fruit, I say go after the big dogs!
Both of you need to get over yourselves before someone with my mindset becomes President and beats the living crap out of BOTH of you... just to have some peace and quiet for a change.
I have wondered why that hasn't already happened, but the US always sides with Israel whatever they do. Obama's regime doesn't seem to be any different.
Both of you need to get over yourselves before someone with my mindset becomes President and beats the living crap out of BOTH of you...
I'm pretty sure we already had someone like that in office. Not so long ago actually.
You don't know what you're missing out on. My spicy deer jerky and a 12 pack of good beer (you choose) is like Heaven on earth. The offer remains open. Just don't land on the roof!
Maybe I'll drop by then. About the roof thing, You have nothing to worry about, I don't pack weapons and usually knock.
Jag_Warrior
2nd June 2010, 21:19
I'm pretty sure we already had someone like that in office. Not so long ago actually.
Nah. The closest the U.S. has come to having someone with anything even a tad close to my mindset is Ross Perot in 1992. These mamby-pamby types we've had running our foreign policy for the past 50+ years make me sick. They're like $5 hookers. Any foreign lobbyist with a bag of cash can bend them over.
Maybe I'll drop by then. About the roof thing, You have nothing to worry about, I don't pack weapons and usually knock.
That's cool. Just let the dog sniff you a couple of times and she won't bite you then. :D
The truth is the first victim, and maybe also the last:
http://en.rsf.org/israel-at-least-60-journalists-were-02-06-2010,37646.html
At least 60 journalists were aboard flotilla, most still held
Published on 2 June 2010
Reporters Without Borders reiterates its urgent appeal to the Israeli authorities to release the journalists who were accompanying the Gaza-bound humanitarian flotilla that was intercepted on 31 May. According to the latest information available to the press freedom organisation, at least 60 journalists were aboard.
“We point out that the journalists were there to do their job, which was to cover what happened,” Reporters Without Borders said. “They should not be confused with the activists. Three hundred of the flotilla’s passengers are about to be deported but journalists are still being held. We call on the Israeli authorities to free all the detained journalists and return their equipment, which was seized by the military.”
If they have nothing to hide, they should have let the journalists report freely and tell what really happened.
Mark in Oshawa
2nd June 2010, 22:14
Eki, you are one to talk about truth....you only report what you want to believe.....
anthonyvop
3rd June 2010, 01:05
The truth is the first victim, and maybe also the last:
http://en.rsf.org/israel-at-least-60-journalists-were-02-06-2010,37646.html
If they have nothing to hide, they should have let the journalists report freely and tell what really happened.
How do they know if they are real journalists? What defines a journalist? Do the Islamo-Fascist Bloggers who were on the ship qualify?
airshifter
3rd June 2010, 01:44
How do they know if they are real journalists? What defines a journalist? Do the Islamo-Fascist Bloggers who were on the ship qualify?
Does it matter? Journalists or not, we have no reason to think they were biased, just because they were travelling with a bunch of activists with the interntion of breaking through a naval blockade.
Let's just call them ministers of information. Everyone knows such people are rock solid in what they say.
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg
steve_spackman
3rd June 2010, 04:37
Eki, Don't look at these videos if you want to continue thinking it's all lies. These soldiers were beaten half to death. The soldier thrown from the deck is a major and a squad leader in that force. He was stabbed in the abdomen and then thrown two stories. After that he just plucked the knife out and jumped into the water so they couldn't kill him. I want to know how you would react had you been beaten and stabbed by a mob like that. The soldiers were so unprepared for things to get so violent they only started defending themselves after eight of them were very close to being killed.
The videos Eki shouldn't see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwbCtwoSSpM&feature=related
QUOTE: Paul W
So, when one Iranian protester is killed it is shown endlessly by US/Israeli media to prove their government is brutal & blood thirsty. When our twisted Secretary of state brags of our unshakable support for Israel, we look the other way when they massacre innocent civilians and humanitarian aid ships are ruthlessly pirated. The USA is an accomplice to War Crimes by the shear fact that we continue to allow them to terrorize & murder, fund their military, Israel is on the receiving end of our extremely generous foreign aid. All the while American citizens are being made homeless, can't afford to go the a doctor,are broke & live in fear of not having a job. As an American Jew I am ashamed of my country's savagery & hypocrisy. Once again our change and hope Commander and chief is muzzled into silence by AIPAC.
How do they know if they are real journalists? What defines a journalist?
Their employers? Journalist cards? If they weren't real journalists, why hold them longer than others?
Does it matter? Journalists or not, we have no reason to think they were biased, just because they were travelling with a bunch of activists with the interntion of breaking through a naval blockade.
Let's just call them ministers of information. Everyone knows such people are rock solid in what they say.
http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/07-minister.jpg
No, it's Israel that has ministers of information. Do you have any pictures of them? The former Iraqi information minister is not very relevant here, except he was about as reliable as the Israelis, but that was his job.
anthonyvop
3rd June 2010, 05:58
I am going to make some of our resident, bleeding heart, liberals pop a blood vessel.
Under International Law a nation has the right to interdict any vessel if they have reasonable suspicion that the vessel will violate their or international law.
Considering that those on the ship had announced to the world that they intended to violate Israeli law the State of Israel had the right to board the vessel.
Once their soldiers were attacked the laws of Humanity allows them to defend themselves as they saw fit.
Israel acted legally and morally in this event. Actually they showed restraint.
anthonyvop
3rd June 2010, 06:01
Their employers? Journalist cards? If they weren't real journalists, why hold them longer than others?
By being on the ship they were violating Israeli and international law.
Being a self appointed journalist gives them no special rights or privileges. it is just a job.
By being on the ship they were violating Israeli and international law.
No, no, you're confusing things again. It was the ISRAELIS who were violating international law. And the Israeli law does not apply in the international waters or even Gaza.
Bob Riebe
3rd June 2010, 07:38
No, no, you're confusing things again. It was the ISRAELIS who were violating international law. And the Israeli law does not apply in the international waters or even Gaza.
Sorry Eki, but a expert on international law on NPR radio to day said Israel was legal in doing what it did.
As usual, you are wrong.
He also said, Israel has "international" law on its side ONLY, if it does it every time for every ship.
It cannot pick and choose, or else it is no longer a blockade as written in your blessed "international law".
Sorry Eki, but a expert on international law on NPR radio to day said Israel was legal in doing what it did.
As usual, you are wrong.
He also said, Israel has "international" law on its side ONLY, if it does it every time for every ship.
It cannot pick and choose, or else it is no longer a blockade as written in your blessed "international law".
And who was that said "expert" and what did he/she really say? And what is NPR radio and what are their affiliations?
Rollo
3rd June 2010, 10:58
No, no, you're confusing things again. It was the ISRAELIS who were violating international law. And the Israeli law does not apply in the international waters or even Gaza.
And who was that said "expert" and what did he/she really say?
Have a listen to it yourself.
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127373370&m=127373354
And what is NPR radio and what are their affiliations?
NPR is essentially of the same spirit as PBS in the United States. It is publicly owned and gets its funding from both public and private sources.
NPR listeners are probably likely to be the most reliably informed people in the United States.
Jag_Warrior
3rd June 2010, 11:39
Both of you need to get over yourselves before someone with my mindset becomes President and beats the living crap out of BOTH of you... just to have some peace and quiet for a change.
I have wondered why that hasn't already happened, but the US always sides with Israel whatever they do. Obama's regime doesn't seem to be any different.
Excellent question.
A lot of people think that either the NRA/gun lobby or the tobacco lobby is the most influential in the U.S. Not even close.
uNQv5YSg_YA
Someone brought up an interesting point while we were discussing this at the office yesterday. LA County has apparently passed a boycott of Arizona over this illegal immigration law brouhaha. But from what one fellow claimed (and I think he's at least partially correct), if LA County had done the same thing against Israel, that would be a violation of U.S. law. I'll have to look up the particulars later today when I have more time.
But my point remains: the tail wags the dog, as far as Israel and the U.S. are concerned. It's been that way for a loooong time, and it'll be that way for a loooong time.
NPR listeners are probably likely to be the most reliably informed people in the United States.
Then I'm surprised that Bob listens to the NPR.
Have a listen to it yourself.
http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=127373370&m=127373354
"Both wrong and both right" (Turkey and Israel), not "Israel is totally right", like Bob would like us to believe.
Rollo
3rd June 2010, 13:39
"Both wrong and both right" (Turkey and Israel), not "Israel is totally right", like Bob would like us to believe.
Also, not - supporting terrorists is totally justified, like you would have us believe.
anthonyvop
3rd June 2010, 14:02
NPR listeners are probably likely to be the most reliably informed people in the United States.
Kind of like the Brown Shirts and the Hitler youth were really informed.
NPR is extremely left wing. The fact they actually had somebody on supporting Israel's side says a lot.
Roamy
3rd June 2010, 14:59
Someone brought up an interesting point while we were discussing this at the office yesterday. LA County has apparently passed a boycott of Arizona over this illegal immigration law brouhaha. But from what one fellow claimed (and I think he's at least partially correct), if LA County had done the same thing against Israel, that would be a violation of U.S. law. I'll have to look up the particulars later today when I have more time.
.
Jag the AZ law is fine. Mexifornia is shooting themselves in the foot here. People from AZ that really impact the So Mexifornia population are affluent enough to leave AZ in the summer and head your way. Much of this money won't be coming. This is a fight your idiot leader should have stayed out of until Brewer gets done kicking Obama's ass. But you are broke and with your current leadership you will stay broke for years to come!!
Bob Riebe
3rd June 2010, 16:51
"Both wrong and both right" (Turkey and Israel), not "Israel is totally right", like Bob would like us to believe.
I did not say one side is wrong and one side is right, I said, he said, thaty Israel had the law on its side in dong what it did, but must do it every time.
Bob Riebe
3rd June 2010, 16:56
Kind of like the Brown Shirts and the Hitler youth were really informed.
NPR is extremely left wing. The fact they actually had somebody on supporting Israel's side says a lot.
Many people on NPR have a liberal bend, but if you listen often enough you will also at times, get heads-up honest reporting, that can put Fox News to shame, much less the other Obama brown nosing networks.
Listening to British and Canadian radio broadcast in the evening, on NPR, also gives one another view of how things are reported.
anthonyvop
3rd June 2010, 17:11
Many people on NPR have a liberal bend,
Liberal bend? Ever listen to Tavis Smiley? And he is a moderate compared to some of the people on there.
I did not say one side is wrong and one side is right, I said, he said, thaty Israel had the law on its side in dong what it did, but must do it every time.
No, he said it would be allowed only if Israel were in an armed conflict and the blockade were legal. The only one who thinks Israel is in an armed conflict and that the blockade is legal is Israel, therefore Israel didn't have the law on its side. You don't make laws by yourself in a democratic world, others must agree.
Bob Riebe
3rd June 2010, 18:23
No, he said it would be allowed only if Israel were in an armed conflict and the blockade were legal. The only one who thinks Israel is in an armed conflict and that the blockade is legal is Israel, therefore Israel didn't have the law on its side. You don't make laws by yourself in a democratic world, others must agree.
That is not what was said or the person would have said Israel had no legal standing to as it does.
That is not what was said or the person would have said Israel had no legal standing to as it does.
He didn't say anything straight. He said Israel is both right and wrong depending on how you look at it.
Rollo
3rd June 2010, 21:32
http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf
Turkish authorities began their own domestic criminal investigation of IHH as early as December 1997, when sources revealed that leaders of IHH were purchasing automatic weapons fromother regional Islamic militant groups.
IHH’s bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested. Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.” After analyzing seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that “detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya.”
Who owns the Mavi Marmara, the ship of the group which was boarded? IHH
Even the AP makes mention of this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i4FlVwMgaQcImeSQwTKnGrH2VZUAD9G3CKJO0
The largest flotilla by far, it was dominated not by Free Gaza, which sent only one small passenger boat, but by three ships sent by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief. The group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, was banned by Israel in 2008 because of alleged ties to Hamas.
The fact they actually had somebody on supporting Israel's side says a lot.
Yes, that this whole event isn't clear cut as the world makes out.
Mark in Oshawa
3rd June 2010, 21:34
http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf
Turkish authorities began their own domestic criminal investigation of IHH as early as December 1997, when sources revealed that leaders of IHH were purchasing automatic weapons fromother regional Islamic militant groups.
IHH’s bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested. Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.” After analyzing seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that “detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya.”
Who owns the Mavi Marmara, the ship of the group which was boarded? IHH
Even the AP makes mention of this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i4FlVwMgaQcImeSQwTKnGrH2VZUAD9G3CKJO0
The largest flotilla by far, it was dominated not by Free Gaza, which sent only one small passenger boat, but by three ships sent by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief. The group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, was banned by Israel in 2008 because of alleged ties to Hamas.
Yes, that this whole event isn't clear cut as the world makes out.
Yet another legitimate bit of news escaping that anti-Israel crowd.
The Israeli's are only guilty of making a hash of the boarding, and they did because of their desire to be "sensititive" to the same sensablities of those who are ripping them anyhow....
http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf
Turkish authorities began their own domestic criminal investigation of IHH as early as December 1997, when sources revealed that leaders of IHH were purchasing automatic weapons fromother regional Islamic militant groups.
IHH’s bureau in Istanbul was thoroughly searched, and its local officers were arrested. Security forces uncovered an array of disturbing items, including firearms, explosives, bomb-making instructions, and a “jihad flag.” After analyzing seized IHH documents, Turkish authorities concluded that “detained members of IHH were going to fight in Afghanistan, Bosnia, and Chechnya.”
Who owns the Mavi Marmara, the ship of the group which was boarded? IHH
Even the AP makes mention of this:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5i4FlVwMgaQcImeSQwTKnGrH2VZUAD9G3CKJO0
The largest flotilla by far, it was dominated not by Free Gaza, which sent only one small passenger boat, but by three ships sent by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief. The group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, was banned by Israel in 2008 because of alleged ties to Hamas.
Yes, that this whole event isn't clear cut as the world makes out.
I think that tells the tale. I've actually heard about this but haven't found so much information. Full blown terrorists hiding in the midst of an 'aid flotilla' biding their time to try and kill israeli soldiers. Of course the global outrage and automatic kneejerk reaction "I can't believe those savages massacred those aid people" against Israel didn't let anybody get confused by these facts. Our stumbling PR and lamest-ever foreign staff wrecked everything else. On a personal note I must say I am much more disappointed by the way the military went along with such a bad operation then by the way world media showed this. I'm used to the media but expected a lot more from the top brass of the military. Those soldiers were almost killed by that foolish in-the-box thinking. They threw them right into the lion's den without the right preparation. Intelligence just fell sleep on this one.
I can't believe all those who attacked the soldiers were sent back to turkey for a hero's welcome instead of facing justice. The price of having to appease everybody, I guess. I hope they get some dog poo delivered to their porches.
I had much hope when Turkey wasn't accepted into the EU because I knew they'd turn their efforts to become a regional superpower, one which could bridge the gaps between Israel and Syria/Lebanon/Palestinians. Instead they went the other way to join Iran and Syria against Israel. Their current PM is a disaster, weakening their secular ideology and strengthening radical Islam.
I guess I won't be returning to Bodrum and Antalya anytime soon, their lose.
Mark in Oshawa
3rd June 2010, 23:39
The thing is Rani, is the last PM I would expect you guys to have to send military into a mission with one arm tied behind their back would be this one. This is a mess from the word go, and the fact no arms actually were on the ship makes you guys really wear a lot of egg on the face.
I wont even get into the rights of stopping the ship. Rollo has shown the legalitities of this stuff better than I (I gave up being the forum's amateur lawyer when I realized the real one was beating my head to a pulp) .
This was just stupid, and the Turk's have really lost a of moral high ground in that they may be heroes to those who think Israel should be forced at gunpoint to accept Hamas living next door with no defence, but in the end, the Turk's will end up being marginalized on the world scene.
The thing is Rani, is the last PM I would expect you guys to have to send military into a mission with one arm tied behind their back would be this one. This is a mess from the word go, and the fact no arms actually were on the ship makes you guys really wear a lot of egg on the face.
I wont even get into the rights of stopping the ship. Rollo has shown the legalitities of this stuff better than I (I gave up being the forum's amateur lawyer when I realized the real one was beating my head to a pulp) .
This was just stupid, and the Turk's have really lost a of moral high ground in that they may be heroes to those who think Israel should be forced at gunpoint to accept Hamas living next door with no defence, but in the end, the Turk's will end up being marginalized on the world scene.
I think it's a real shame. I really enjoyed myself last time I was there. I actually liked the people, mediterenean culture at its best. We had Haim Revivo (an israeli footballer) play for two of the biggest clubs there, and he was pretty much worshipped there then. I remember walking through the markets and the second a shopkeeper would hear hebrew he'd start hollering random stuff in hebrew and shout 'Haim Revivo' in order to lure you to his corner. Nice folk and great food too. I hope they retain their secular ideology after this radical islam wave passes over.
Rollo
4th June 2010, 00:15
I had much hope when Turkey wasn't accepted into the EU because I knew they'd turn their efforts to become a regional superpower, one which could bridge the gaps between Israel and Syria/Lebanon/Palestinians. Instead they went the other way to join Iran and Syria against Israel. Their current PM is a disaster, weakening their secular ideology and strengthening radical Islam.
I'd like to preface this with saying that the following is WMG - "Wild Mass Guessing" on my part:
I'm beginning to suspect that this whole debacle is really in effect, a political message designed to justify the "Islamification" of what is otherwise secularist Turkey.
Remember, the current president of Turkey is none other than Abdullah Gul who was elected back in 2007.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6966216.stm
Turkey's military chief warned on Monday that "centres of evil" were trying to undermine the state. Gen Yasar Buyukanit did not name those he said were "trying to corrode the secular nature of the Turkish Republic."
But analysts said the statement was clearly aimed at Mr Gul, a devout Muslim.
Turkey's military and secular establishment suspect he might harbour a secret Islamist agenda.
What better way would there be to justify moves away from secularism, when you can claim victim status in all of this? Plus, it's really easy to demonise Israel when most of the Islamic world already hates them.
Mark in Oshawa
4th June 2010, 00:18
I'd like to preface this with saying that the following is WMG - "Wild Mass Guessing" on my part:
I'm beginning to suspect that this whole debacle is really in effect, a political message designed to justify the "Islamification" of what is otherwise secularist Turkey.
Remember, the current president of Turkey is none other than Abdullah Gul who was elected back in 2007.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6966216.stm
Turkey's military chief warned on Monday that "centres of evil" were trying to undermine the state. Gen Yasar Buyukanit did not name those he said were "trying to corrode the secular nature of the Turkish Republic."
But analysts said the statement was clearly aimed at Mr Gul, a devout Muslim.
Turkey's military and secular establishment suspect he might harbour a secret Islamist agenda.
What better way would there be to justify moves away from secularism, when you can claim victim status in all of this? Plus, it's really easy to demonise Israel when most of the Islamic world already hates them.
This is one of those times I hope you are wrong Rollo. Unfortunately, I think you have hit the nail on the head....
Easy Drifter
4th June 2010, 01:00
Does not anyone think it is strange that a ship supposedly taking aid to Gaza has so many people on board? Why were there more than just the crew?
Also do not forget any ship trying to run a blockade and intercepted that does not obey the orders of the intercepting ship can be sunk.
Thank whatever diety you worship, if any, that Israel did not do that.
airshifter
4th June 2010, 01:54
Does not anyone think it is strange that a ship supposedly taking aid to Gaza has so many people on board? Why were there more than just the crew?
Also do not forget any ship trying to run a blockade and intercepted that does not obey the orders of the intercepting ship can be sunk.
Thank whatever diety you worship, if any, that Israel did not do that.
I don't think it had anything to do with delivery of humanitarian aid. It was nothing more than political posturing... STUPID political posturing. Having made it clear they would violate the blockade they are indeed lucky that the vessels weren't sent to the bottom of the ocean.
And Rollo, quite a telling link in regards to the IHH.
Mark in Oshawa
4th June 2010, 06:07
Does not anyone think it is strange that a ship supposedly taking aid to Gaza has so many people on board? Why were there more than just the crew?
Also do not forget any ship trying to run a blockade and intercepted that does not obey the orders of the intercepting ship can be sunk.
Thank whatever diety you worship, if any, that Israel did not do that.
The reason that shipped was packed with these do gooder wing nuts is precisly to stop the Isreali's from doing just that. The chattering classes who want to feel morally superior are filled with useful idiots for the cause....
Jag_Warrior
5th June 2010, 21:00
I'm just wondering how much this clusterf### is going to cost me, the American taxpayer. I've already read this book, on many other occasions: Israel gets its panties in a bunch, Israel strikes out, American taxpayer has to send a guilt check to build some houses, buy some planes or whatever.
That unnamed character from Lost was more right than he knew: They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
Try not to laugh too hard or you'll we needing one of these http://www.ptca.org/devices4.html
We all know you aren't excercising as much as you should with you thousand posts per day. I wish you the best of health, boycotting Israel by not using your computer with your chip from Kiryat Gat will probably help that cause. I say go for it.
Buy a computer equipped with a VIA motherboard and running Linux:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Technologies
Daniel
6th June 2010, 12:43
Buy a computer equipped with a VIA motherboard and running Linux:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VIA_Technologies
Or just by an AMD chip :)
Or just by an AMD chip :)
Yes, but without any Microsoft software. Microsoft has a research and development center in Israel:
http://www.microsoft.com/israel/rnd/index.html
Yes, but without any Microsoft software. Microsoft has a research and development center in Israel:
http://www.microsoft.com/israel/rnd/index.html
So does HP, CA, IBM, SAP and Google to name a few.
I'd tell you to search the rest but now that you guys can't use Google and Boogle what's the point?
Good luck anyway...
:wave:
So does HP, CA, IBM, SAP and Google to name a few.
I'd tell you to search the rest but now that you guys can't use Google and Boogle what's the point?
Good luck anyway...
:wave:
I might try this:
http://goole.com/
Besides, it doesn't matter because I don't pay for using Google. I'll just have to make sure I won't buy from anybody who advertises on Google.
Daniel
6th June 2010, 17:53
So does HP, CA, IBM, SAP and Google to name a few.
I'd tell you to search the rest but now that you guys can't use Google and Boogle what's the point?
Good luck anyway...
:wave:
It's this sort of arrogance that got you guys in trouble 70 years ago and still does now.
What a surprise, NOT. They clearly have something to hide:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10250354.stm
Israel 'to reject international ship raid inquiry'
Page last updated at 15:07 GMT, Sunday, 6 June 2010 16:07 UK
Israel will reject a proposed international commission to investigate its deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla, its ambassador to the US has said.
Michael Oren told US broadcaster Fox News that Israel has the ability and the right to investigate its own military.
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon had earlier telephoned Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu with the proposal.
It's this sort of arrogance that got you guys in trouble 70 years ago and still does now.
Do you have evidence of 'jewish arrogance' causing the Holocaust?
I'd love to hear your theory.
I'm not being cynical.
Daniel
6th June 2010, 18:53
Do you have evidence of 'jewish arrogance' causing the Holocaust?
I'd love to hear your theory.
I'm not being cynical.
Tell me why did Hitler more or less single out the Jews for what he did? Now I most certainly DO NOT think what he did is right or that there is any excuse. But please do tell me why the Jews and not other groups of people?
I certainly think it was just a means to an end for him and that he just needed a scapegoat to galvanise support for the war effort. Why the jews? Why not those Poles with their excesses of pork consumption? The French with their garlic breath? Brits with their needless weekly roast meals?
There seems to be an attitude amongst Jews that they're special and that the rules that others abide by shouldn't apply to them.
Being successful (which Israel is if I'm honest) is rather a moot point is some terrorist detonates a nuclear weapon in one of your big cities and makes everything glow. Play nice and things will get better, keep on like this and things will get a whole lot worse.
Tell me why did Hitler more or less single out the Jews for what he did? Now I most certainly DO NOT think what he did is right or that there is any excuse. But please do tell me why the Jews and not other groups of people?
I certainly think it was just a means to an end for him and that he just needed a scapegoat to galvanise support for the war effort. Why the jews? Why not those Poles with their excesses of pork consumption? The French with their garlic breath? Brits with their needless weekly roast meals?
There seems to be an attitude amongst Jews that they're special and that the rules that others abide by shouldn't apply to them.
Being successful (which Israel is if I'm honest) is rather a moot point is some terrorist detonates a nuclear weapon in one of your big cities and makes everything glow. Play nice and things will get better, keep on like this and things will get a whole lot worse.
I don't have an answer to your first question. I truly have no idea. However, the rise of nazism came from within german society long before the war. Hence, choosing poles and brits could not be an option, Hitler needed an 'enemy from within' to make a scapegoat out of. I am nit sure about german demographics circa 1930s, but I believe there weren't many minorities in Germany at the time. Jews would have made an easy target since they were relatively doing well. Plus antisemitism is about as old as semitism. Of course Hitler made jews the main enemy but also massacred plenty of other minorities such as Gypsies, Homosexuals, handicapped and people suffering from mental illness or mentally challenged.
There seems to be an attitude amongst Jews that they're special and that the rules that others abide by shouldn't apply to them.
I must say I totally disagree with this. I obviously know a lot of jews and I don't think it's true. Special? well yeah there aren't many of us around. I certainly don't think jews believe they don't need to obey certain rules others abide to because they are jewish. Whenever I've been abroad I always tried to behave as well as I can. I think your statement is very general and not fair. There are rotten apples who don't go by the rules in every group of people and I don't think jews in general are like that.
My earlier comments were not out of arrogance, more out of frustration. The amount of lies I've heard on global media is simply astounding. I've heard a jordanian woman who was on deck say commandos threatened to kill a child on the boat if the captain wouldn't change the ship's course. My girlfriend's dad actually knows one of the sailors the IDF sent to guide the ships to Ashdod. I've heard people say how soldiers went on a rampage against defenseless people when the truth is they defended themselves against a mob of true terrorists. This was on turkish newspaper today: http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?P=7&cid=36575&rid=2
9 people were killed in the fight to get the soldiers who were taken hostage on the belly of the boat yet many on the boat say the soldiers simply opened fire. World media is truly against us every step of the way. The truth just doesn't come out and it really hurts. There is no hunger in gaza. There maybe shortages in fuel and building supplies (every bit of cement passed goes right to Hamas' hands who use it to build bunkers). I also think the blockade would have been lifted had Hamas let Gilad Shalit out or at least let the Red Cross see him. We have a soldier they kidnapped over there who hasn't seen the light of day for 4 years. Meanwhile in Israel Hamas prisoners are given full rights and get to study towards academic degrees. The world loves an underdog and to hell with the truth.
True, Israel has made mistakes. People just don't seem to understand that in this region every move towards peace (retreating from south Lebanon in 2000 and from Gaza in 2005 are prime examples) is seen as a weakness and makes extremist groups likes Hizbuallah and Hamas stronger. The two past wars in the region were direct consequences of Israel returning land back to its enemies. What are we supposed to do?
Daniel
6th June 2010, 20:23
I don't have an answer to your first question. I truly have no idea. However, the rise of nazism came from within german society long before the war. Hence, choosing poles and brits could not be an option, Hitler needed an 'enemy from within' to make a scapegoat out of. I am nit sure about german demographics circa 1930s, but I believe there weren't many minorities in Germany at the time. Jews would have made an easy target since they were relatively doing well. Plus antisemitism is about as old as semitism. Of course Hitler made jews the main enemy but also massacred plenty of other minorities such as Gypsies, Homosexuals, handicapped and people suffering from mental illness or mentally challenged.
I must say I totally disagree with this. I obviously know a lot of jews and I don't think it's true. Special? well yeah there aren't many of us around. I certainly don't think jews believe they don't need to obey certain rules others abide to because they are jewish. Whenever I've been abroad I always tried to behave as well as I can. I think your statement is very general and not fair. There are rotten apples who don't go by the rules in every group of people and I don't think jews in general are like that.
My earlier comments were not out of arrogance, more out of frustration. The amount of lies I've heard on global media is simply astounding. I've heard a jordanian woman who was on deck say commandos threatened to kill a child on the boat if the captain wouldn't change the ship's course. My girlfriend's dad actually knows one of the sailors the IDF sent to guide the ships to Ashdod. I've heard people say how soldiers went on a rampage against defenseless people when the truth is they defended themselves against a mob of true terrorists. This was on turkish newspaper today: http://fotogaleri.hurriyet.com.tr/GaleriDetay.aspx?P=7&cid=36575&rid=2
9 people were killed in the fight to get the soldiers who were taken hostage on the belly of the boat yet many on the boat say the soldiers simply opened fire. World media is truly against us every step of the way. The truth just doesn't come out and it really hurts. There is no hunger in gaza. There maybe shortages in fuel and building supplies (every bit of cement passed goes right to Hamas' hands who use it to build bunkers). I also think the blockade would have been lifted had Hamas let Gilad Shalit out or at least let the Red Cross see him. We have a soldier they kidnapped over there who hasn't seen the light of day for 4 years. Meanwhile in Israel Hamas prisoners are given full rights and get to study towards academic degrees. The world loves an underdog and to hell with the truth.
True, Israel has made mistakes. People just don't seem to understand that in this region every move towards peace (retreating from south Lebanon in 2000 and from Gaza in 2005 are prime examples) is seen as a weakness and makes extremist groups likes Hizbuallah and Hamas stronger. The two past wars in the region were direct consequences of Israel returning land back to its enemies. What are we supposed to do?
That you feel leaving Lebanon or Gaza somehow makes things a OK is hilarious and is exactly why Hamas and Hezbollah see fit to rain rocketfire into your country. Saying that leaving Lebanon or Gaza makes it all good is like Hamas or Hezbollah saying that stopping firing rockets makes it all good. You shouldn't be there in the first place and Hamas and Hezbollah shouldn't fire rockets into Israel at all. You're both frigging wrong and you both need to grow up.
I think you need to live overseas and see things from an outward point of view. After all I'm sure there were probably members of my family in South Africa who thought Apartheid was just dandy at the time. Whilst of course you need to have people in the area to find out what's happening, sometimes the people with the external viewpoint are the ones best equipped to judge right and wrong.
That you feel leaving Lebanon or Gaza somehow makes things a OK is hilarious and is exactly why Hamas and Hezbollah see fit to rain rocketfire into your country. Saying that leaving Lebanon or Gaza makes it all good is like Hamas or Hezbollah saying that stopping firing rockets makes it all good. You shouldn't be there in the first place and Hamas and Hezbollah shouldn't fire rockets into Israel at all. You're both frigging wrong and you both need to grow up.
I think you need to live overseas and see things from an outward point of view. After all I'm sure there were probably members of my family in South Africa who thought Apartheid was just dandy at the time. Whilst of course you need to have people in the area to find out what's happening, sometimes the people with the external viewpoint are the ones best equipped to judge right and wrong.
You misunderstood me. I am not debating the fact whether leaving Gaza or Lebanon is 'ok' or not' just saying that a move that seem to encourage moderation and make things better only brought more bloodshed. That is unquestionable fact. Ever since those withdrawls extremist organizations have only gotten stronger and more well, extreme.
sometimes the people with the external viewpoint are the ones best equipped to judge right and wrong
I agree, but as a person who consumes foreign media on one hand and knows what is really going on on the other I know that a lot of people have no idea what they're talking about.
Daniel
6th June 2010, 20:46
You misunderstood me. I am not debating the fact whether leaving Gaza or Lebanon is 'ok' or not' just saying that a move that seem to encourage moderation and make things better only brought more bloodshed. That is unquestionable fact. Ever since those withdrawls extremist organizations have only gotten stronger and more well, extreme.
I agree, but as a person who consumes foreign media on one hand and knows what is really going on on the other I know that a lot of people have no idea what they're talking about.
But as someone who lives on the right side of the wall you're bound to feel that way.
Also, of course if you leave an area of conflict of course support for the enemy is going to get greater and they're going to launch offensives. Just as if there was a constant hail of rockets coming into Israel, when it stopped your army would be on the move and striking back at whoever was doing it.
Someone needs to be the bigger man and turn the other cheek to a certain extent and I very much doubt that Hezbollah and Hamas are much into cheek turning. But you may find that their support dries up if they keep on trying to attack you and you're not striking back. Hamas talks big and talks of wiping Israel off the map but we all know that aint happening so once Israeli munitions stop falling from the sky, the wall comes down and aid is allowed to freely flow then people will struggle to think of reasons to attack Israel.
You misunderstood me. I am not debating the fact whether leaving Gaza or Lebanon is 'ok' or not' just saying that a move that seem to encourage moderation and make things better only brought more bloodshed. That is unquestionable fact. Ever since those withdrawls extremist organizations have only gotten stronger and more well, extreme.
Not by much, judging by these figures, or the problem before 2000 was non-existent:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/8A5B1966-2BBA-4FFC-9C6A-D2F15E290E76/0/suicideattacks20007.jpg
Someone needs to be the bigger man and turn the other cheek to a certain extent and I very much doubt that Hezbollah and Hamas are much into cheek turning. But you may find that their support dries up if they keep on trying to attack you and you're not striking back. Hamas talks big and talks of wiping Israel off the map but we all know that aint happening so once Israeli munitions stop falling from the sky, the wall comes down and aid is allowed to freely flow then people will struggle to think of reasons to attack Israel.
When PM Sharon was in power there was a long term where by a policy of restraint took effect. There was a long spell of time when palestinian terrorists would attack and Israel would do nothing. That policy did nothing to quell terrorism in this region and eventually died a natural death.
Hamas and Hizbuallah are both very religious organizations. This is a religious conflict to them much more than a conflict over land. Just like Al Qaeda attacked NY although they have no claim to the land of the US. As I've said before, judging those organizations' motives and rationale through western standards is simply wrong.
I urge you to read both organizations' charters. Both speak freely about the fact that they will not accept Israel, ever. They will not have peace with Israel, ever. They are willing to have a hudna, a ceasefire in order to regain strength and regroup but never peace. They state this themselves, you can't claim it's Israel delegitimizing them.
Furthermore, both organizations have evolved from militias to legitimate political movements in Gaza and Lebanon. As you know Hamas holds Gaza and was elected democratically, while Hizbuallah holds quite a few seats in Lebanese parliament. Radical, non comprimising, lets-kill-infidels islam is spreading here as it is all around the world.
Not by much, judging by these figures, or the problem before 2000 was non-existent:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/8A5B1966-2BBA-4FFC-9C6A-D2F15E290E76/0/suicideattacks20007.jpg
It was a serious problem before 2000, as it is today. Motivation for terrorist attacks against Israel hasn't lulled, quite the opposite. This graph getting lower tells two things, either we're very lucky or the IDF has learned how to cope with the situation and stop most attacks. I'm pretty sure it's a bit of both.
Daniel
6th June 2010, 21:45
When PM Sharon was in power there was a long term where by a policy of restraint took effect. There was a long spell of time when palestinian terrorists would attack and Israel would do nothing. That policy did nothing to quell terrorism in this region and eventually died a natural death.
Hamas and Hizbuallah are both very religious organizations. This is a religious conflict to them much more than a conflict over land. Just like Al Qaeda attacked NY although they have no claim to the land of the US. As I've said before, judging those organizations' motives and rationale through western standards is simply wrong.
I urge you to read both organizations' charters. Both speak freely about the fact that they will not accept Israel, ever. They will not have peace with Israel, ever. They are willing to have a hudna, a ceasefire in order to regain strength and regroup but never peace. They state this themselves, you can't claim it's Israel delegitimizing them.
Furthermore, both organizations have evolved from militias to legitimate political movements in Gaza and Lebanon. As you know Hamas holds Gaza and was elected democratically, while Hizbuallah holds quite a few seats in Lebanese parliament. Radical, non comprimising, lets-kill-infidels islam is spreading here as it is all around the world.
This is exactly my point. Israel always fails to do everything it needs. It's great to not bomb Palestinians, BUT you've also got to allow them to rebuild AND take the wall down.
This is exactly my point. Israel always fails to do everything it needs. It's great to not bomb Palestinians, BUT you've also got to allow them to rebuild AND take the wall down.
You're getting things mixed up. Gaza has no walls around it. The 'wall' is in the west bank which is ruled by Fatah, not Hamas. Their area has been fairly peaceful for the last few years, and they are prospering economically as a result. Their police force collaborates with the IDF and it's relatively quiet, especially compared to Gaza. The difference is that they are willing to compromise in order to coexist while Hamas isn't. By the way Hamas massacred members of Fatah in Gaza a few years ago. They slaughtered their palestinian brothers out of political disagreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
Situation as it is, the palestinians living by the wall are prospering because they are willing to coexist while Gazans (no wall) are suffering because they elected a government hell-bent on the destruction of Israel.
You're getting things mixed up. Gaza has no walls around it. The 'wall' is in the west bank which is ruled by Fatah, not Hamas. Their area has been fairly peaceful for the last few years, and they are prospering economically as a result. Their police force collaborates with the IDF and it's relatively quiet, especially compared to Gaza. The difference is that they are willing to compromise in order to coexist while Hamas isn't. By the way Hamas massacred members of Fatah in Gaza a few years ago. They slaughtered their palestinian brothers out of political disagreement. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
Situation as it is, the palestinians living by the wall are prospering because they are willing to coexist while Gazans (no wall) are suffering because they elected a government hell-bent on the destruction of Israel.
What I've heard is that Israelis are still planning to build new settlements in the West Bank but not in Gaza. In that respect, I think Gaza and Hamas have succeeded better.
Hondo
6th June 2010, 22:59
There's an amusing aspect to a South African-Australian, living in Wales, telling a Jew to go back to where be belongs.
Daniel
6th June 2010, 23:17
I haven't said that Rani should go anywhere..... Heck I even said that the Palestinians have to accept that Israel is there to stay...
There's an amusing aspect to a South African-Australian, living in Wales, telling a Jew to go back to where be belongs.
The difference is that Daniel is not trying to take over Wales and make it a new South-Africa of his own liking, **** the Welsh.
Hondo
7th June 2010, 08:01
The difference is that Daniel is not trying to take over Wales and make it a new South-Africa of his own liking, **** the Welsh.
Actually, he is. They just haven't caught on to him yet.
Daniel
7th June 2010, 08:10
Actually, he is. They just haven't caught on to him yet.
:D
of course Israel refuses peace negotiations because they themselves refuse to pay the price for peace.
of course Israel refuses peace negotiations because they themselves refuse to pay the price for peace.
Peace with who are we talking about?
The palestinians?
Which ones, Hamas or Fatah?
Hondo
7th June 2010, 15:22
I don't think Israel would refuse peace negotiations. I'd bet if you went up to them and said "tell ya what, we won't shoot at you anymore and you don't shoot at us anymore" They'd go for that. There you are...peace. Simple, really.
I don't think Israel would refuse peace negotiations. I'd bet if you went up to them and said "tell ya what, we won't shoot at you anymore and you don't shoot at us anymore" They'd go for that. There you are...peace. Simple, really.
that's already been put to them, for what nearly 30 years!
that's already been put to them, for what nearly 30 years!
Two attempted attacks by Hamas over the last three days says your wrong.
Have you read the Hamas charter?
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
As hard as I looked I didn't find a hand reaching for peace in that document. I'd love to hear if you can find words of peace in there.
schmenke
7th June 2010, 15:48
... Hamas talks big and talks of wiping Israel off the map but we all know that aint happening so once Israeli munitions stop falling from the sky, the wall comes down and aid is allowed to freely flow then people will struggle to think of reasons to attack Israel.
Hoo boy, Daniel, I'm afraid you are way off the mark here.
Understand that the primary resolve of Hamas is to inflict as much damage to Israel as possible. If "walls" come down as you say, Hamas will have little restrictions to import weapons into Gaza and will not hesitate to use them.
As Rani correctly points out, you cannot judge this conflict by western standards.
Two attempted attacks by Hamas over the last three days says your wrong.
Have you read the Hamas charter?
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
As hard as I looked I didn't find a hand reaching for peace in that document. I'd love to hear if you can find words of peace in there.
MidEastWeb does not support Hamas!!
Why is it that when someone links to the alleged "Hamas Charter", it's always on a website of someone who opposes Hamas and never on a website that supports Hamas, or better yet on Hamas' own site? The opposition is so eager to spread the alleged "Hamas Charter" around that it seems as suspicious as "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion":
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/przion1.htm
Hondo
7th June 2010, 16:17
that's already been put to them, for what nearly 30 years!
No it hasn't. Whats been put to them for thirty years is "you give us this, this, & this and throw in a side order of that and there will be peace". That's what they aren't going for and I don't blame them. The vast majority of the original Palestinian refugees left because the mighty combined Arab armies told them to do so for their own safety while they wiped Israel off of the map. Once the mighty Arabs finished the job, the Palestinians could return home. As it turns out, the mighty Arabs got a mudhole stomped in them and never quite managed to liberate the area as promised. Other territories the Israelis have taken were invaded to stop hostile fire coming from the area. If I were Israel, I wouldn't be inclined to give them back either.
But, if everybody wants to agree to the current geographical status quo and stop shooting at each other, I'm sure the Israelis would go for that. Every time these bozos start shooting at Israel, they lose more and more territory. You'd think they would have learned that by now.
Every time these bozos start shooting at Israel, they lose more and more territory. You'd think they would have learned that by now.
You'd also think that the bozos in Israel would have learned that each time they do that, there'll be more rockets and suicide bombers coming their way. The Palestinians don't want to give up, turn around and bend over to Israel.
Hondo
7th June 2010, 16:40
You'd also think that the bozos in Israel would have learned that each time they do that, there'll be more rockets and suicide bombers coming their way. The Palestinians don't want to give up, turn around and bend over to Israel.
The Palestinians need to take their issues up with Great Britain (the founder of the feast) and the mighty Arab armies that promised to return the land to them and Yassir Arafat, who scammed the Palestinian cause out of $2 billion while leading their heroic struggle.
Bob Riebe
7th June 2010, 19:47
You'd also think that the bozos in Israel would have learned that each time they do that, there'll be more rockets and suicide bombers coming their way. The Palestinians don't want to give up, turn around and bend over to Israel.
Bozo is Jewish?
THere is more than one?
Bozo is Jewish?
THere is more than one?
At least about 2 million (the foreign born Jews and other non-Arabs) who should have had enough sense to stay where they were born and not add to the problems in the area by emigrating to Israel.
Rollo
7th June 2010, 21:29
Why is it that when someone links to the alleged "Hamas Charter", it's always on a website of someone who opposes Hamas and never on a website that supports Hamas, or better yet on Hamas' own site?
Ok then - please help us:
أهلا و سهلا بكم في الموقع الرسمي لمجلس الوزراء الفلسطيني.
هذا الموقع الإلكتروني بمثابة نافذة على الحكومة الفلسطينية، وفلسطين، كما يمكنكم هذا الموقع من التواصل الرسمي مع الحكومة وأعضائها، والتعرف على الأخبار والقرارات الصادرة، وكذلك السياسات العامة للحكومة الفلسطينية.
http://www.pmo.gov.ps/
English is the lingua franca of these boards. Obviously it stands to reason that posting something which is understandable is the proper thing to do. Otherwise:
Kek chengo borri borri Toogoogal?
Ok then - please help us:
أهلا و سهلا بكم في الموقع الرسمي لمجلس الوزراء الفلسطيني.
هذا الموقع الإلكتروني بمثابة نافذة على الحكومة الفلسطينية، وفلسطين، كما يمكنكم هذا الموقع من التواصل الرسمي مع الحكومة وأعضائها، والتعرف على الأخبار والقرارات الصادرة، وكذلك السياسات العامة للحكومة الفلسطينية.
http://www.pmo.gov.ps/
English is the lingua franca of these boards. Obviously it stands to reason that posting something which is understandable is the proper thing to do. Otherwise:
Kek chengo borri borri Toogoogal?
Try Google Translate:
http://translate.google.com/#
It translates Arabic.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1654510.stm
The group's short-term aim has been to drive Israeli forces from the occupied territories. To achieve this it has launched attacks on Israeli troops and settlers in the Palestinian territories and against civilians in Israel.
It also has a long-term aim of establishing an Islamic state on all of historic Palestine - most of which has been contained within Israel's borders since its creation in 1948.
The short term-aim I support. The long-term aid I don't support. I'd prefer a secular Palestine where every religion is equal. But at least an Islamic state isn't any worse option than a Jewish State.
Daniel
7th June 2010, 22:04
Hoo boy, Daniel, I'm afraid you are way off the mark here.
Understand that the primary resolve of Hamas is to inflict as much damage to Israel as possible. If "walls" come down as you say, Hamas will have little restrictions to import weapons into Gaza and will not hesitate to use them.
As Rani correctly points out, you cannot judge this conflict by western standards.
But you've got to see it from their standards. Israel wants them gone. Are they meant to sit there and eat ****? If Israel opresses Palestinians they're going to want to fight back.
Back in the 80's and 90's the IRA wanted to do as much harm to the English as possible and we all know how this ended....
Bob Riebe
7th June 2010, 22:20
At least about 2 million (the foreign born Jews and other non-Arabs) who should have had enough sense to stay where they were born and not add to the problems in the area by emigrating to Israel.
Israel is a part of Arabia?
Bob Riebe
7th June 2010, 22:23
أهلا و سهلا بكم في الموقع الرسمي لمجلس الوزراء الفلسطيني.
هذا الموقع الإلكتروني بمثابة نافذة على الحكومة الفلسطينية، وفلسطين، كما يمكنكم هذا الموقع من التواصل الرسمي مع الحكومة وأعضائها، والتعرف على الأخبار والقرارات الصادرة، وكذلك السياسات العامة للحكومة الفلسطينية.
It says: " Fearless Leader, the Moose and Squirrel have found the Kirwood Derby."
Rollo
7th June 2010, 23:51
Try Google Translate
No. You do it.
If you insist that the Hamas Charter as provided is wrong, then the onus of proof rests with you. When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on that party making a claim. Since you are making a claim that he Hamas Charter as provided is wrong, then the burden to prove otherwise rests with you.
Camelopard
8th June 2010, 00:23
A very good example of how much power the pro israeli lobby has in the US.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/08/2920930.htm?section=justin
Story says she quit, bet she was pushed..........
Rollo
8th June 2010, 01:32
Back in the 80's and 90's the IRA wanted to do as much harm to the English as possible and we all know how this ended....
How is not as important as why, I think.
Ultimately "the troubles" have died down because both sides have more or less complied with probably the most major point in the Belfast Agreement. ie:
Commitment by all parties to use "exclusively peaceful and democratic means"
The problem with Israel and Palestine, is that Israel is a stubborn and "stiff-necked people" and Palestine is a "wild ass of a people". The sooner that both sides, put up, shut up and get along, the better.
The problem is that it's impossible to properly unify Palestine (because Hamas, Fatah and the other splinters of the PLO refuse to do so), and Israel as a nation is an arrogant pratt.
There will be no end to this; both parties are wrong.
Roamy
8th June 2010, 04:41
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/07/iran.gaza.aid/index.html?hpt=T3
See just keep it up. I am surprised Iran doesn't have signs everywhere just saying "Bomb me Now" there will never ever ever be peace here so may as well just get it on!!!
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/07/iran.gaza.aid/index.html?hpt=T3
See just keep it up. I am surprised Iran doesn't have signs everywhere just saying "Bomb me Now" there will never ever ever be peace here so may as well just get it on!!!
Israel will be thrilled. But they are probably disappointed that it's Red Crescent and not Red Cross. A red cross is much easier to aim at than a red crescent.
Israel is a part of Arabia?
No, it's a part of Palestine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
Palestine (Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל, Eretẓ Yisra'el; formerly ארץ–כנען, Eretẓ Kena'an; also פלשׂתינה, Palestina; Arabic: فلسطين Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn) is a conventional name used, among others, to describe a geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands.[1]
As a geographic term, Palestine can refer to "ancient Palestine," an area that today includes Israel and the Israeli-occupied [2] Palestinian territories, as well as part of Jordan, and some of both Lebanon and Syria.[1] In classical or contemporary terms, it is also the common name for the area west of the Jordan River.
A very good example of how much power the pro israeli lobby has in the US.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/08/2920930.htm?section=justin
Story says she quit, bet she was pushed..........
Why did she apologize? Israel never apologizes.
White House press legend quits amid Israel row
Veteran White House journalist Helen Thomas, who has covered every US president since John F Kennedy, has abruptly retired amid a storm of criticism over her controversial remarks about Israel.
The departure of Thomas, 89, as a Hearst Newspapers columnist was announced after she was captured on video saying Israelis should "get the hell out of Palestine" and suggesting they go "home" to Germany, Poland or the United States.
The comments drew widespread condemnation, including from the White House.
Thomas, long considered the dean of the White House press corps, apologised for her statements, recorded in an impromptu interview dated May 27 and posted on a website.
Roamy
8th June 2010, 06:43
Hey I just freakin solved big world problems.
1. Helen Thomas - Leader of the UN
2. US gives Israel 3 miles buffer of Arizona land on the Mexican Border.
Now talk about brilliant - Sh!t I should get the nobel peace prize.
Israel Nuclear threat removed
US Mexico border 100% secure
Pales get a country complete with housing and hotels and infrastructure and resorts
The only blockade you will have is the Rio Grande
Send me in NOW !!
No, it's a part of Palestine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
It's funny this land has been called the land of Israel for millenia yet you seem so eager to use a name that was only used after the ottomans left less than a century ago. Heck it wasn't even invented by the palestinians (who joined the wagon nontheless) but by the brits who governed it for only about thirty years. I'd like to know when was this place part of a palestinian country ruled by 'palestinians'.
Daniel
8th June 2010, 07:33
How is not as important as why, I think.
Ultimately "the troubles" have died down because both sides have more or less complied with probably the most major point in the Belfast Agreement. ie:
Commitment by all parties to use "exclusively peaceful and democratic means"
The problem with Israel and Palestine, is that Israel is a stubborn and "stiff-necked people" and Palestine is a "wild ass of a people". The sooner that both sides, put up, shut up and get along, the better.
The problem is that it's impossible to properly unify Palestine (because Hamas, Fatah and the other splinters of the PLO refuse to do so), and Israel as a nation is an arrogant pratt.
There will be no end to this; both parties are wrong.
Exactly :) Both sides need to back down or else this will continue on indefinitely.
Daniel
8th June 2010, 07:34
Hey I just freakin solved big world problems.
1. Helen Thomas - Leader of the UN
2. US gives Israel 3 miles buffer of Arizona land on the Mexican Border.
Now talk about brilliant - Sh!t I should get the nobel peace prize.
Israel Nuclear threat removed
US Mexico border 100% secure
Pales get a country complete with housing and hotels and infrastructure and resorts
The only blockade you will have is the Rio Grande
Send me in NOW !!
No more mexican food though!
Tbh that's a better idea than what's going on at the moment.
Daniel
8th June 2010, 07:40
It's funny this land has been called the land of Israel for millenia yet you seem so eager to use a name that was only used after the ottomans left less than a century ago. Heck it wasn't even invented by the palestinians (who joined the wagon nontheless) but by the brits who governed it for only about thirty years. I'd like to know when was this place part of a palestinian country ruled by 'palestinians'.
and thousands of years ago your people were slaves to the Egyptians.... does this mean they have a right to you? :laugh:
and thousands of years ago your people were slaves to the Egyptians.... does this mean they have a right to you? :laugh:
And what was before that?
On the flotilla note, Hamas isn't allowing the goods that went off the ships. If there is such a humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza, why are their leaders witholding aid?
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hamas-blocking-entry-of-flotilla-aid-into-gaza-1.293943
Hamas will not allow goods from an aid flotilla raided by Israel to enter the blockaded Gaza Strip, a spokesman for the Islamist organization said Thursday.
Ahmed al-Kurd, Social Welfare Minister in the Hamas government which rules Gaza, said Hamas would block the aid cargo until Israel met all of the group's conditions.
This is from a very left wing newspaper, one which is regularly quoted by Camelopard who I wouldn't call pro-Israel.
why dont we all go back to where we were 2000 years ago? :rolleyes:
why dont we all go back to where we were 2000 years ago? :rolleyes:
So you agree people should stay put for the time being?
I agree.
So you agree people should stay put for the time being?
I agree.
NO.
There's people scattered all over the world who have living memories of living peacefully in what you call eretz israel, when now someone else lives in their old homes.
NO.
There's people scattered all over the world who have living memories of living peacefully in what you call eretz israel, when now someone else lives in their old homes.
It's not my fault they listened to their brothers in the arab armies who told them they should get out so they could return afterwards after the arab armies would reclaim the land in 1948. They were promised they could return and claim all the riches of the jewish settlements. I feel sorry for them that they listened.
It's not my fault they listened to their brothers in the arab armies who told them they should get out so they could return afterwards after the arab armies would reclaim the land in 1948. They were promised they could return and claim all the riches of the jewish settlements. I feel sorry for them that they listened.
they didn't leave under their own free will.
Camelopard
8th June 2010, 09:30
The Israelies wouldn't do that, would they?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/08/2921836.htm?section=justin
Sydney Morning Herald journalist Paul McGeough says footage captured of the recent deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla has been re-edited for Israeli purposes.
Mr McGeough was onboard the flotilla with another Fairfax journalist when it was raided earlier this month, killing nine pro-Palestinian activists.
He has told triple j's Hack program his equipment and footage were seized by Israeli officials before he was deported.
"The imagery that was in various cameras is now being edited and put out by the Israeli Defence Force as their account of the events on the ships," he said.
Mr McGeough says Fairfax and Australian authorities are working to have the property returned.
The full interview with Paul McGeough will be on triple j tonight
they didn't leave under their own free will.
I beg to differ:
Abu Mazen wrote in an article entitled "Madha `Alamna wa-Madha Yajib An Na`mal" [What We Have Learned and What We Should Do], published in "Falastineth-Thawra" [Revolutionary Palestine], the official journal of the PLO, Beirut, March 1976, "The Arab armies entered Palestine to protect the Palestinians from the Zionist tyranny but instead, they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland...The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people."
Khaled al-`Azm, who served as Prime Minister of Syria in 1948 and 1949, wrote in his memoirs (published in Beirut, 1973), that among the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948 was "the call by the Arab Governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and to leave for the bordering Arab countries, after having sown terror among them...Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave...We have brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees, by calling upon them and pleading with them to leave their land, their homes, their work and business..." (Part 1, pp. 386-387).
Harry C. Stebbens, who was in an official position in the British Mandatory Government in Palestine in 1947-48, wrote in the London Evening Standard (Friday, 10 January, 1969):
"Long before the end of the British mandate, between January and April, 48, practically all my Arab Palestinian staff of some 200 men and women and all of the 1800 labor force had left Haifa in spite of every possible effort to assure them of their safety if they stayed.
"They all left for one or more of the following reasons:
The Arab terrorism engendered by the November, 1947, U.N. partition resolution frightened them to death of their imaginative souls and they feared Jewish retaliation.
Propagandists promised a blood bath as soon as the mandate ended in which the street of all the cities would run with blood.
The promised invasion by the foreign Arab armies (which started on May 14, 1948, with the Arab Legion massacre of some 200 Jewish settlers at Kfar Etzion) was preceded by extensive broadcasts from Cairo, Damascus, Amman, and Beirut to the effect that any Arabs who stayed would be hanged as collaborators with the Jews.
"The Palestinian Arabs were the victims then, as in 1967, of their own propaganda, and having on the average no stomach for violence they ran. I have met many of my Palestinian Arab friends since in Beirut, Damascus, Amman, and in the Persian Gulf states, and they have all without exception gladly told me that they had wished they had listened to me and stayed - as did some 200,000 who became and still are the most economically advanced Arabs in the Middle East.
The massacre of Kfar Etzion, the massacre of the hospital convoy killed 48 Jewish doctors and nurses, the continued shelling and blasting of Jewish settlement for more than 20 years, has not caused one single Israeli to move away. They sit tight and if necessary in their shelters while across the river, where the shooting comes from, the towns and villages are deserted, last year's crops still rot on the trees and the refugees move still further away from any trouble."How long will the Palestinian Arabs continue the myth that they were kicked out, every time they ran away from trouble and got themselves into more trouble?"
Jamal Husseini, in charge of the Palestine Higher Committee, told the Security Council on 23 April 1948, "we have never concealed the fact that we began the fighting."
On 6 September 1949, the Beirut Telegraph carried an interview with Mr. Emile Ghoury, Secretary of the Palestine Higher Committee, in which he said:
"The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence of the act of the Arab States in opposing partition and the Jewish State."
The Jordan daily Falastin wrote on 19 February 1949: "The Arab States which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promises to help these refugees."
As late as 12 October 1963, the Cairo daily Akhbar el-Yom, recalled:
"15 May 1948 arrived...on that very day the Mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead..."
A British police report to Jerusalem Headquarters on 26 April 1948 attested: "Every effort is being made by the Jews to persuade the Arab population to stay and carry on with their normal lives..."
In Haifa, on 27 April 1948, the Arab National Committee refused to sign a truce, reporting in a memorandum to the Arab League Governments: "when the delegation entered the conference room it proudly refused to sign the truce and asked that the evacuation of the Arab population and their transfer to neighboring Arab countries be facilitated...The military and civil authorities and the Jewish representatives expressed their profound regret. The mayor of Haifa (Mr. Shabtai Levi) adjourned the meeting with a passionate appeal to the Arab population to reconsider its decision..."
Camelopard
8th June 2010, 09:46
I beg to differ:
And here is a quote from one of your own....
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_c
From Publishers Weekly
Starred Review. In his latest work, renowned Israeli author and academic Pappe (A History of Modern Palestine) does not mince words, doing Jimmy Carter one better (or worse, depending on one's point of view) by accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity beginning in the 1948 war for independence, and continuing through the present. Focusing primarily on Plan D (Dalet, in Hebrew), conceived on March 10, 1948, Pappe demonstrates how ethnic cleansing was not a circumstance of war, but rather a deliberate goal of combat for early Israeli military units led by David Ben-Gurion, whom Pappe labels the "architect of ethnic cleansing." The forced expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians between 1948-49, Pappe argues, was part of a long-standing Zionist plan to manufacture an ethnically pure Jewish state. Framing his argument with accepted international and UN definitions of ethnic cleansing, Pappe follows with an excruciatingly detailed account of Israeli military involvement in the demolition and depopulation of hundreds of villages, and the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Arab inhabitants. An accessible, learned resource, this volume provides important inroads into the historical antecedents of today's conflict, but its conclusions will not be easy for everyone to stomach: Pappe argues that the ethnic cleansing of Palestine continues today, and calls for the unconditional return of all Palestinian refugees and an end to the Israeli occupation. Without question, Pappe's account will provoke ire from many readers; importantly, it will spark discussion as well.
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. --This text refers to the Hardcover (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1851684670/ref=dp_proddesc_1?ie=UTF8&n=283155) edition.
Just goes to show whatever you find, I can find stuff that says the opposite.......
And here is a quote from one of your own....
.
I don't think a person who invented a massacre is credible.
Hey I just freakin solved big world problems.
1. Helen Thomas - Leader of the UN
2. US gives Israel 3 miles buffer of Arizona land on the Mexican Border.
Now talk about brilliant - Sh!t I should get the nobel peace prize.
Israel Nuclear threat removed
US Mexico border 100% secure
Pales get a country complete with housing and hotels and infrastructure and resorts
The only blockade you will have is the Rio Grande
Send me in NOW !!
I read this as:
Dear israel,
now that we no longer need you to be our b*tch in the ME.
We want you be a buffer between ourselves and the restless Mexicans.
Signed,
A reasonable American
Rollo
8th June 2010, 13:28
why dont we all go back to where we were 2000 years ago? :rolleyes:
If you assume that a generation is about 30 years, then that means that in 2000 years there has been roughly 66 generations. If we also assume that every person has two parents, then that means that their two parents also has two parents each, giving us four, etc and so on.
For 66 generations we get, for every person alive some 73,786,976,294,838,206,464 in that 66th generation or more 150 million times more people than there's ever been in the history of the planet.
Thus everyone, came from everywhere else, and is related to everyone else.
I don't know about you lot, but I'm claiming Buck House, and with it, the throne of the United Kingdom (and with it all other thrones as well).
Oi peasants, bow before your new world leader, King Rollo I.
More grovelling please... :D
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 15:26
No, it's a part of Palestine:
Then why did you say: " (the foreign born Jews and other non-Arabs)"?
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 15:28
It's funny this land has been called the land of Israel for millenia yet you seem so eager to use a name that was only used after the ottomans left less than a century ago. Heck it wasn't even invented by the palestinians (who joined the wagon nontheless) but by the brits who governed it for only about thirty years. I'd like to know when was this place part of a palestinian country ruled by 'palestinians'.
Details, details, details....
Then why did you say: " (the foreign born Jews and other non-Arabs)"?
Because they were born outside Palestine (or Israel if you like) and immigrated there.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Society_&_Culture/newpop.html
Of the country’s Jewish and non-Arab population, 70 percent were born in Israel (sabras). In 1948, only 35 percent of Jews were born in the country.
There are 5,726,000 Jews in Israel. About 4 million of them (70%) were born in Israel (part of geographical Palestine) and about 2 million (30%) outside of it.
It's funny this land has been called the land of Israel for millenia yet you seem so eager to use a name that was only used after the ottomans left less than a century ago. Heck it wasn't even invented by the palestinians (who joined the wagon nontheless) but by the brits who governed it for only about thirty years. I'd like to know when was this place part of a palestinian country ruled by 'palestinians'.
Can you show me a genuine map printed before the Ottoman rule that says "Israel"?
Some Finns are setting up a security company in Iran. Maybe they could get a gig protecting aid convoys to Gaza:
http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/06/finns_to_offer_security_services_in_iran_1743838.h tml
Finns to Offer Security Services in Iran
published today 01:06 PM, updated today 02:52 PM
Some veterans in the security business here in Finland are setting up a security company in Iran. It’s a pioneering project, as it is said to be the first western security business in Islamic Iran. The Finnish founders believe their services to be in demand among the many western companies based in the country.
There seem to be few private security businesses in Iran and private bodyguards are most commonly hired directly from the streets without professional experience.
According to market research done by the Finnish security entrepreneur Auvo Niiniketo, there’s a need for professionalism in the Iranian security Industry. In addition to regular security guard services, Niiniketo is planning to offer bodyguard services, event security and general protection services. After entering the country's international market, he intends to sell his services to local businesses as well.
Niiniketo is planning to run the company with local manpower. He says, it wouldn’t make sense to bring in Finnish security personnel to Iran for anything else than exceptional events. “Practical security work would be done by locals, and we would train them and be responsible for them,” says Niiniketo.
Iran is politically unstable and currently foreign businesses may encounter prejudice. Subsequently, Niiniketo has taken Iranian partners into his company board, which he says, will guarantee cooperation with local officials, and smoothen the way to get a licence for his business.
Niiniketo established his close relations to his Iranian business partners through his activity in martial arts. He has trained Iranians in the martial art of jujutsu for years and worked closely with the local martial arts union. “The idea to establish a security business came from my jujutsu contacts, who knew that I worked in the security industry as well,” says Niiniketo.
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 18:35
Because they were born outside Palestine (or Israel if you like) and immigrated there.
.
Then you think palestinians are Arabs as you said-- "and other non-Arabs"
.
Israel is not in Arabia.
Hondo
8th June 2010, 18:38
It's a good thing he plans to use local help. I certainly wouldn't accept a contract over there.
It's a good thing he plans to use local help. I certainly wouldn't accept a contract over there.
I'm sure he'd find others. I mean, Blackwater found staff who accepted a contract in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran is nothing compared to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide
Then you think palestinians are Arabs as you said-- "and other non-Arabs"
.
At least the Jewish Virtual Library seems to think they are. But what does it have to do with the immigration problem in Palestine, more specifically in the part currently occupied by those who insist calling it Israel?
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 19:08
At least the Jewish Virtual Library seems to think they are. But what does it have to do with the immigration problem in Palestine, more specifically in the part currently occupied by those who insist calling it Israel?
If palestinians are Arabs, they can go back to Arabia where they came from.
If palestinians are Arabs, they can go back to Arabia where they came from.
Where is Arabia? Arabia is a language, not a piece of land. You could as well say the Israeli Jews can go back to Hebrew where they came from.
Daniel
8th June 2010, 19:22
And what was before that?
You take my point though. I think sometimes you just have to accept that things are as they are and try to get a workable solution out of it. The Israeli's aren't going anywhere and I certainly don't expect you to. The Palestinians need to accept this too, BUT you also need to accept that the Palestinians need a place where they're free from opression.
What Israel is doing is no better than what Nazi Germany did to your people during WW2.
Daniel
8th June 2010, 19:23
If palestinians are Arabs, they can go back to Arabia where they came from.
I'm sure they'll agree to that if you agree to go back to your cave :)
Hondo
8th June 2010, 19:45
I'm sure he'd find others. I mean, Blackwater found staff who accepted a contract in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran is nothing compared to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_Worldwide
He might find some Belgian, Spanish, or Arab ex-legionnaires to accept contracts, but he is going to have to pay them above average. Blackwater and other contractors (Blackwater wasn't the only one, there are quite a few) provide security services and/or hired soldiers to governments or companies involved with government contracts. There is a direct government connection. The Finn wants to provide protection for individuals. I think they will be constantly running afoul of some Iranian government security agency to the point it's just not worth the effort.
Easy Drifter
8th June 2010, 19:45
Daniel you are out of line unless you can show us concentration camps, death camps and gas chambers where millions are being murdered.
Eki a while back you finally agreed Israel had a right to exist.
I do not know of any free country who does not make their own decisions on immigration. What gives you or anyone else the right to tell them who they should allow in?
Technically the Israels are as much a Semetic tribe as any Palestinian.
Where is Arabia? Arabia is a language, not a piece of land. You could as well say the Israeli Jews can go back to Hebrew where they came from.
i hope you charge when educate theese fools.
He might find some Belgian, Spanish, or Arab ex-legionnaires to accept contracts, but he is going to have to pay them above average.
Or Finnish ex-legionnaires. Or just Finnish security professionals. Of course he would have to pay them more than in Finland, he'd probably have to do that in any foreign country. I don't think Iran is a very dangerous country, although they have their share of terrorists and violent demonstrations.
The Finn wants to provide protection for individuals. I think they will be constantly running afoul of some Iranian government security agency to the point it's just not worth the effort.
Why would they do that? They probably couldn't get a permission to operate in Iran without an approval from the government, so they'd probably be fighting anti-government and criminal gangs.
Daniel
8th June 2010, 20:03
Daniel you are out of line unless you can show us concentration camps, death camps and gas chambers where millions are being murdered.
As a human race we've moved on so much in the last 70 odd years. What the Israeli's are doing now is just as unpalatable as what Hitler did all those years ago.
I do not know of any free country who does not make their own decisions on immigration. What gives you or anyone else the right to tell them who they should allow in?
The difference to most countries is that in most countries governments set up by immigrants don't take land from the original residents and give it to their immigrant buddies while squeezing the originals into a small hell hole surrounded by a wall.
Eki a while back you finally agreed Israel had a right to exist.
That was probably before this latest atrocity by Israel.
Where is Arabia? Arabia is a language, not a piece of land. You could as well say the Israeli Jews can go back to Hebrew where they came from.
I must admit this made me laugh. Is this the level of geography lessons in Finland?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabian_Peninsula
Their language is called Arabic BTW, not Arabia or Arabian or anything like that.
Can you show me a genuine map printed before the Ottoman rule that says "Israel"?
Here are quite a few:
http://www.google.co.il/images?q=ancient%20israel%20map&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&oe=utf8&rlz=&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=iw&tab=wi
Of course they weren't printed back then. I sure as hell know there aren't and never been any maps from those times that read 'Palestine' because the term only began to be used in 1917.
http://www.google.co.il/images?q=ancient%20israel%20map&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&oe=utf8&rlz=&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=iw&tab=wi
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 20:49
I'm sure they'll agree to that if you agree to go back to your cave :)
Aw heck, I'm rubber you're glue, every thing you say bounces off of me, and stick to you.
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 21:01
Where is Arabia? Arabia is a language, not a piece of land. You could as well say the Israeli Jews can go back to Hebrew where they came from.
Geez, your mother should ban you from ever using the wiki again.
http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/FieldImages/ArabianPeninsulaTopoLabels.jpeg
"The Arabian peninsula (Al-Jazira) is bounded by the Red Sea to the west, the Arabian Sea to the south and the Persian Gulf to the east. To the west, the Hijaz and Asir mountain ranges form a barrier from the sea. Further west, the Tihama is the coastal plain of the Red Sea. In the north, the An Nafud and 'Hamad deserts separate Saudi Arabia from Iraq and Jordan. The Rub' al Khali (empty quarter) in the southeast is a vast and generally impenetrable desert. An Nafud, a sea of enormous shifting sand dunes, was supposedly considered impenetrable until T.E. Lawrence crossed it in 1917 to attack Aqaba with his Arab allies.
The Arabs have been known in the Middle East at least since the time of Shalmanesser II in 853 BC. Arabia has been the home of several apparently distinct Semitic peoples in numerous tribes, all known as Arabs, for much of recorded history. The relatively high rainfall of Yemen and easy access to the sea made it the home of several prosperous kingdoms, including Saba (possibly the biblical Sheba), Himyar, Qataban, Minea (Ma'in) and Hadramaut. The Romans called Yemen Arabia Felix (Happy Arabia) The area was the source of frankincense and myrrh and also a relay point for spices coming from the East. An additional kingdom of Zufar was situated in the area of the modern Oman"
The House of Saud, rules the greatest part of Arabia, which is why it is called Saudi Arabia.
Are you really that ignorant, of are you just acting semi-literate for some reason.
Here are quite a few:
http://www.google.co.il/images?q=ancient%20israel%20map&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&oe=utf8&rlz=&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=iw&tab=wi
Of course they weren't printed back then. I sure as hell know there aren't and never been any maps from those times that read 'Palestine' because the term only began to be used in 1917.
http://www.google.co.il/images?q=ancient%20israel%20map&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&oe=utf8&rlz=&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=iw&tab=wi
Those maps look new. Of course it's easy to fabricate them now and claim they're pre-Ottoman. You don't have any evidence that there was a country called Israel before 1947.
Geez, your mother should ban you from ever using the wiki again.
Geez, I'd wish. My mother died two years ago.
Did you notice that the Arabian Peninsula includes what is now called Israel?
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 21:12
As a human race we've moved on so much in the last 70 odd years. What the Israeli's are doing now is just as unpalatable as what Hitler did all those years ago.
Who is we?
Who made them god.
Yes we have moved on, the human race has created illegal drugs now that are far more destructive to the human body than seventy years ago.
Africans have thrown off Imperial rule, and modern tech. that came with it and now simply torture and hack each other apart.
Human race, about as pathetic and the current Indianapolis race.
Those maps look new. Of course it's easy to fabricate them now and claim they're pre-Ottoman. You don't have any evidence that there was a country called Israel before 1947.
I know how much you love quoting wikipedia so here's one for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah
Next you'll say the word Israel was made up in 1948 and claim it's all a conspiracy.
I'm done giving you evidence to things you just say you don't believe are real. Maybe Bob is right and you are just a troll.
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 21:18
Geez, I'd wish. My mother died two years ago.
Did you notice that the Arabian Peninsula includes what is now called Israel?
Main Entry: pen·in·su·la
: a portion of land nearly surrounded by water and connected with a larger body by an isthmus; also : a piece of land jutting out into the water whether with or without a well-defined isthmus
Show me what part of Israel is surrounded by, or justs out into water.
No wait that's right there is not such thing as Arabia, in your world.
I know how much you love quoting wikipedia so here's one for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah
Next you'll say the word Israel was made up in 1948 and claim it's all a conspiracy.
I'm done giving you evidence to things you just say you don't believe are real. Maybe Bob is right and you are just a troll.
Oh, you're using Bible and other obscure texts as a map and a travel guide. If you want to go that way, also the Philistines are mentioned in the Bible and obscure texts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines
Although it seems that the Jews only consider this as Palestine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleshet
Pleshet is the Hebrew name for what might otherwise be called the "land of the Philistines" according to the Hebrew Bible (see Book of Genesis 21:32, Exodus 13:17, 1 Samuel 27:1, Joel 3:4).[1]
The term refers to the coastal region that stretches roughly from Gaza in the South to Ashdod in the North. The five main cities of the Philistines during the time of the Kings of Israel were Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath.
Geez, I'd wish. My mother died two years ago.
Did you notice that the Arabian Peninsula includes what is now called Israel?
Are you saying that Israel is part of a country called Arabia now?
Maybe Finland is part of a country called Lapland then?
Are you aware of the fact that 'region', 'country' and 'language' mean different things?
I like it better when Camelopard posts against Israel, at least he knows some facts and doesn't just babble. I'd expect someone with such extreme opinions as you (Eki) to at least know what you're talking about. I don't mean to insult you but you are showing quite a bit of ignorance over the last posts.
Bob Riebe
8th June 2010, 21:30
Are you saying that Israel is part of a country called Arabia now?
Maybe Finland is part of a country called Lapland then?
Are you aware of the fact that 'region', 'country' and 'language' mean different things?
I like it better when Camelopard posts against Israel, at least he knows some facts and doesn't just babble. I'd expect someone with such extreme opinions as you (Eki) to at least know what you're talking about. I don't mean to insult you but you are showing quite a bit of ignorance over the last posts.
Eki is starting to look more and more like a troll, as I doubt he actually did not know what Arabia is and is not.
Are you saying that Israel is part of a country called Arabia now?
Maybe Finland is part of a country called Lapland then?
It's not so simple. Some seem to think that Finland is in Scandinavia, when in fact only Lapland part of Finland is part of the Scandinavian peninsula. Thought you knew that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Peninsula
The Scandinavian Peninsula is a geographic region in northern Europe, consisting of Norway, Sweden and part of northern Finland.
Rollo
8th June 2010, 21:44
Of course they weren't printed back then. I sure as hell know there aren't and never been any maps from those times that read 'Palestine' because the term only began to be used in 1917.
Before the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the Levant (now there's a work which Eki won't have heard of either), it was all part of one eyalet called Şam or Syria.
Syrioi was the Greek word for Ashur, which itself was capital of the Assyrian Empire.
Palaistinē is a Latin word imposed on the area by the Romans in 63BC. The name otherwise was the Iudaea Province, or Judaea.
Oh, you're using Bible and other obscure texts as a map and a travel guide. If you want to go that way, also the Philistines are mentioned in the Bible and obscure texts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines
Although it seems that the Jews only consider this as Palestine:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleshet
Even the palestinians themselves don't consider themselves descendents of the philistines. Just like australians don't consider themselves austrians just because their names have a similar ring to them.
The philistines spoke an ancient indo-european language that has nothing to do with arabic. They are related to the greek mycenaeans. Sorry but I don't see any resemblence between palestinian arabs and greeks. Some of the music might sound similar but that's about it.
I see you've come to the stage of panicky babbling and unsubstantiated rambling.
BTW I know exactly where lapland is. I've seen maps of the place and studied it in geography lessons in the sixth grade. I think the arabian peninsula was on my second or third grade curriculum.
Roamy
8th June 2010, 22:18
I read this as:
Dear israel,
now that we no longer need you to be our b*tch in the ME.
We want you be a buffer between ourselves and the restless Mexicans.
Signed,
A reasonable American
works for me !!!!
schmenke
9th June 2010, 00:46
...Of course they weren't printed back then. I sure as hell know there aren't and never been any maps from those times that read 'Palestine' because the term only began to be used in 1917.
Well, I think the "Land of Canaan" pre-dates both the "Kingdom of Israel" and the "Land of Palestine", but to say that "Palestine" existed only after 1917 is as silly as saying that "Israel" existed only after 1948 :mark:
Rollo
9th June 2010, 00:59
Even the palestinians themselves don't consider themselves descendents of the philistines. Just like australians don't consider themselves austrians just because their names have a similar ring to them.
The philistines spoke an ancient indo-european language that has nothing to do with arabic. They are related to the greek mycenaeans. Sorry but I don't see any resemblence between palestinian arabs and greeks.
The Philistines according to the Torah are descendants of Ham.
The Palestinians are Arabs, therefore they are descendants of Ishmael, Abraham and ultimately Shem; therefore like the Jews are Semitic.
Well, I think the "Land of Canaan" pre-dates both the "Kingdom of Israel" and the "Land of Palestine", but to say that "Palestine" existed only after 1917 is as silly as saying that "Israel" existed only after 1948 :mark:
Well, I never said that. I said the name Palestine has only been used widely since the brits occupied here in 1917.
Hondo
9th June 2010, 01:33
Well, I never said that. I said the name Palestine has only been used widely since the brits occupied here in 1917.
Speaking of the Brits, it was they, after careful study, declared they could determine no sense or signs of Palestinian unity or national identity that would be a problem with the creation of Israel.
BTW I know exactly where lapland is.
Didn't seem that way. We were talking about peninsulas. Lapland isn't a peninsula. Scandinavian Peninsula is a peninsula, just like Arabian Peninsula is a peninsula. Lapland is part of the Scandinavian Peninsula, not the other way around. Your analogy was faulty.
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