Jari Matti Latvala

[A FONDO]

you are watching this sport for a short time then....teams always informed the crews of the split times....either by radio or by sending people mid stage holding cartons with the times....
With ten onboard cams and strict steward jury it is avoidable. Solution can always be found if there is a strong will.

[dimviii]

With ten onboard cams and strict steward jury it is avoidable. Solution can always be found if there is a strong will.

with 10 onboard cameras how you ll find that at 15km of the stage ,the man with the red blouse had his arm up/down?(showing to slowdown or the opposite?)

driver know from morning that at 15th km will have his team man to give him the signal.

[Mirek]

With ten onboard cams and strict steward jury it is avoidable. Solution can always be found if there is a strong will.

Get real. That's absolutely impossible. First evaluation of all onboards would take days or weeks and even than it's very likely it wouldn't be possible to prove it was a man sent by the team to show splits.

[N.O.T]

With ten onboard cams and strict steward jury it is avoidable. Solution can always be found if there is a strong will.

you are saying that the marshals will have to watch 2-3 hours of onboard footage from every driver just to see if there is someone at the stages ????

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

[RAS007]

In reply to Mirek:

Yes and no. I don't like the current rule, because, as previously mentioned, I believe that it lessens the competition and therefore makes the sport less exciting. Ultimately, I think everyone would like to see the WRC being more competitive and more exciting than it has been for the past few years. I dont necessarily believe that being first on the road is a "punishment" either. I dont know what the answer is, but making it easier for the top crews to disappear over the horizon after day 1 isn't it.

[N.O.T]

in other words...

i do not want Loeb to win another championship but i cannot see any set of rules that can achieve that...

Pathetic...

[RAS007]

in other words...

i do not want Loeb to win another championship but i cannot see any set of rules that can achieve that...

Pathetic...

Au contraire, mon ami, au contraire. I can think of nothing better for the WRC right now than Loeb winning another championship. I think that's exactly what the sport needs, don't you? :up:

[Rallyper]

Get real. That's absolutely impossible. First evaluation of all onboards would take days or weeks and even than it's very likely it wouldn't be possible to prove it was a man sent by the team to show splits.

But it´s still cheating, when caught means disqualified.

[N.O.T]

Au contraire, mon ami, au contraire. I can think of nothing better for the WRC right now than Loeb winning another championship. I think that's exactly what the sport needs, don't you? :up:

the WRC needs the BEST to win....

Unfortunatelly for you, this guy is Loeb for the last 8 years and looks like the trend will go on...

the current rules suggest that ALL top crew start on equal basis...no handicap for the fastest driver...the fastest wins.

[N.O.T]

But it´s still cheating, when caught means disqualified.

well if i go on a stage and have a stop watch with me i can also indicate the split times to any driver... so how can you tell it was cheating from the drivers/teams part ???

[Mirek]

But it´s still cheating, when caught means disqualified.

You didn't get the point. How would You prove that it is cheating? Any court of appeal must find that from onboard camera it is impossible to identify any particular person and what if they say it was some fans showing times deliberately?

Plus think again about time and manforce needed to evaluate X cameras multiplied by 3-4 hours of driving multiplied by 20 cars. It's totally unreal to check it.

And sure there are other means of getting times in car.

[bluuford]

With ten onboard cams and strict steward jury it is avoidable. Solution can always be found if there is a strong will.

And we are reaching back to the simplicity fact.. So, probably we will be notified by FIA who won the rally approximately two weeks after the end of rally. The result will be:
Loeb gets 10 minutes penalty because his beard was badly shaved, Mikko will be excluded because he was driving too cautiosly in some sections of the stage, Jari Matti gets 7 minutes penalty because his sunclasses were not homologated, Solberg will be excluded because he sweared after the puncture, Novikov will get 15 minutes penalty because he was talking in Russian and FIA didnt understand it and just for in case they penalized him, Tänak gets the same punishment because of Estonian language, and our winner is Nobre who speaks very clearly and correctly during and after every stage!

[RAS007]

the WRC needs the BEST to win....

Unfortunatelly for you, this guy is Loeb for the last 8 years and looks like the trend will go on...

the current rules suggest that ALL top crew start on equal basis...no handicap for the fastest driver...the fastest wins.

We can agree to disagree, I think that's ok. Any sport which is dominated by one person/team/entity for years on end becomes tired and bereft of excitement. I think that is where the WRC is right now and has been for some time. It isn't necessarily unfortunate for me, but is demonstrably unfortunate for the sport.

[A FONDO]

with 10 onboard cameras how you ll find that at 15km of the stage ,the man with the red blouse had his arm up/down?(showing to slowdown or the opposite?)

driver know from morning that at 15th km will have his team man to give him the signal.So they should skip the scrutineering too because they cant disassemble every car to bolts and nuts?
With arm up/down you cant tell exact time, you must show a cartoon or something which is clearly visible. And theres not a problem watching all the camera data from 3-4 cars from the last splits of the last stage. As I said theres only will needed, then solutions arise themselves. Yes somebody may try his luck to pass it somehow, with the risk of lets say disqualification for the whole team, but at least it will be much more difficult than now.

[N.O.T]

So they should skip the scrutineering too because they cant disassemble every car to bolts and nuts?
With arm up/down you cant tell exact time, you must show a cartoon or something which is clearly visible. And theres not a problem watching all the camera data from 3-4 cars from the last splits of the last stage. As I said theres only will needed, then solutions arise themselves. Yes somebody may try his luck to pass it somehow, with the risk of lets say disqualification for the whole team, but at least it will be much more difficult than now.

and how can one tell if the one with the carton is from the team or not....i can do it...you can do it...anyone can...

you know every man with a stop watch can give out the split times...you do not need any sophisticated equipment...

[Mirek]

and how can one tell if the one with the carton is from the team or not....i can do it...you can do it...anyone can...

you know every man with a stop watch can give out the split times...you do not need any sophisticated equipment...

Yes, let's say a man wakes up in the morning and gets a brilliant idea to help Ford by penalizing Citroën. So he takes a carton and stop watch and shows Citroën drivers split times...

[A FONDO]

and how can one tell if the one with the carton is from the team or not....i can do it...you can do it...anyone can...

you know every man with a stop watch can give out the split times...you do not need any sophisticated equipment...
Well its a little bit like placing rocks on the road isnt it?

[N.O.T]

Well its a little bit like placing rocks on the road isnt it?

well no... here is the whole idea

the citroen team says... you 2 guys go out there and show Loeb and Hirvonen the split times... the guys do it but they decide to drees up like balarinas, one with a purple tutu and red heart shaped sunglasses and the other with all the balarina clothes but he wears a fish for a hat... the judges see that in the onboard footage and now they have to prove they were sent from a team and not doing it themselves....

how do they prove that ?????

[Fide]

and we are reaching back to the simplicity fact.. So, probably we will be notified by fia who won the rally approximately two weeks after the end of rally. The result will be:
Loeb gets 10 minutes penalty because his beard was badly shaved, mikko will be excluded because he was driving too cautiosly in some sections of the stage, jari matti gets 7 minutes penalty because his sunclasses were not homologated, solberg will be excluded because he sweared after the puncture, novikov will get 15 minutes penalty because he was talking in russian and fia didnt understand it and just for in case they penalized him, tänak gets the same punishment because of estonian language, and our winner is nobre who speaks very clearly and correctly during and after every stage!

excelent !!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D :D :D :D :D Indeed Loeb's beard is not a fashion look.... He will never be a Top Model....

[N.O.T]

Yes, let's say a man wakes up in the morning and gets a brilliant idea to help Ford by penalizing Citroën. So he takes a carton and stop watch and shows Citroën drivers split times...

well i am not saying that the drivers would be stupid enough to believe everyone on the stage...only those that the team would tell them to in service (eg "watch the guys on the 7km mark)...the problem is how you prove that those guys were from a team ?

[A.F.F.]

Coming to thingle bout it.... Having witnessed the dresscode of the spectators in NORF, everybody is suspicious.

[Rallyper]

Let´s agree on the fact that Loeb is the best ever rallydriver. He rules. Let´s enjoy and know that there will be times he´s not around and other drivers compete maybe on more equal level. That for the time being.

[N.O.T]

Let´s agree on the fact that Loeb is the best ever rallydriver. He rules. Let´s enjoy and know that there will be times he´s not around and other drivers compete maybe on more equal level. That for the time being.

for some people that is too much to accept it seems...

[Fide]

Let´s agree on the fact that Loeb is the best ever rallydriver. He rules. Let´s enjoy and know that there will be times he´s not around and other drivers compete maybe on more equal level. That for the time being.

And the worst shaved.... h a ha

[A.F.F.]

Let´s agree on the fact that Loeb is the best ever rallydriver. He rules. Let´s enjoy and know that there will be times he´s not around and other drivers compete maybe on more equal level. That for the time being.

Esapekka Lappi. :)

[RAS007]

Let´s agree on the fact that Loeb is the best ever rallydriver. He rules. Let´s enjoy and know that there will be times he´s not around and other drivers compete maybe on more equal level. That for the time being.

I would say that Loeb is one of the best rally drivers ever, and a candidate for the best rally driver ever, if it was possible to make such a definitive statement. For example, it is highly unlikely that Loeb would have won 8 titles in a row if his first full year the WRC was 1989.

[N.O.T]

it is highly unlikely that Loeb would have won 8 titles in a row if his first full year the WRC was 1989.

i disagree...

and he did not win the championship in his first full year either.

[A.F.F.]

i disagree...

and he did not win the championship in his first full year either.

So you say that if Loeb would have competed against the likes of Kankkunen, Sainz, McRae, Biasion, Auriol, Mäkinen, he'd won the title eight times in a row, with that amount of manufacturers?

[RAS007]

i disagree....

How unsurprising.

[RAS007]

So you say that if Loeb would have competed against the likes of Kankkunen, Sainz, McRae, Biasion, Auriol, Mäkinen, he'd won the title eight times in a row, with that amount of manufacturers?

Loeb may have won 3 or 4 titles during that era, maybe like Tommi, but it would take a particular kind of one coloured vision to think that he would have swept all before him during that era, like he has done over the past 8 years.

[A.F.F.]

Loeb may have won 3 or 4 titles during that era, maybe like Tommi, but it would take a particular kind of one coloured vision to think that he would have swept all before him during that era, like he has done over the past 8 years.

Against those gentlemen, at their peak, I also find it very hard to believe.

[janvanvurpa]

Don't think Latvala was "over driving" when he went off. He, as he admitted, panicked and lost the plot. I find it odd that a driver of his calibre did that when he saw Novikov's car on it's roof and I don't think the Russian's car was even on Latvala's line. He really should've taken things in his stride, slowed some if necessary and foot to the floor again.


Yep you're right. But easier said than done at all levels.. I really don't take my own driving too seriously since it's just club rally for fun, but I do try some and there have been several times when i have encountered a car with the shiney side down and rubber side up and no warning triangles and I can assure you that the surprise led to a butt clench that just about ripped the seat covers off the seat..and I had to burn my nomex long johns later..

One major reason I liked enter rallys is just because I have a fairly good expectation of a closed, safe road----where i live there are 10s of thousands of miles of gravel roads, but there are cars, trucks, bikes, motorcycles, 3 wheelers etc out in the woods. So on a SS I can concentrate just a tad more on the road..

ANYTHING that is a surprise CAN be quite disconcerting, and sometimes that all it takes...

Rememeber, these guys REALLY are driving on the notes....

[N.O.T]

So you say that if Loeb would have competed against the likes of Kankkunen, Sainz, McRae, Biasion, Auriol, Mäkinen, he'd won the title eight times in a row, with that amount of manufacturers?

yes... but with less wins due to car problems...speedwise he already beat most of them when they were at the age Loeb is now so...

Nice to mention Biasion...Loeb would beat Biasion with his legs bound behind his ears and his eyes closed while eating spaggetti with cheese and mushrooms...and a chardonnet of '87 chilled at 7C...maybe.

[RAS007]

yes... but with less wins due to car problems...speedwise he already beat most of them when they were at the age Loeb is now so...

Lol. All of the aforementioned drivers were well past their peak by the time Sebastian arrived on the scene, some of them already retired.

Just a thought: Kankkunen won 3 of his 4 world titles with 3 different manufacturers......quite a feat it must be said, and the only driver ever to do so. I don't think Seb will even try for 2......

[N.O.T]

Lol. All of the aforementioned drivers were well past their peak by the time Sebastian arrived on the scene, some of them already retired.

Just a thought: Kankkunen won 3 of his 4 world titles with 3 different manufacturers......quite a feat it must be said, and the only driver ever to do so. I don't think Seb will even try for 2......

you believe the reason kankkunen changed manufacturers was to prove himself and not because of better money or better contracts or better cars ??? thats star trek universe stuff.....you consider motrsport guys to be Retarded idiots ??? because thats what you have to be to change to a team while your current one gives you everything you ask...would you quit your job to go to a place which is dirtier, less organised with less capabilities of progress to prove you are the best at what you do....???

The afformentioned drivers were give or take around the same age Loeb is now....the fact that you consider them past their peak while Loeb still wins rallies and stages shows enough to support the otherwise totally imaginary argument that he could be equally successful...

the question cannot be answered, but if you are forced to answer it, there are more data that suggest he could be champion during those years multiple times...and quite possibly dominating the era as he is doing it now.

[RAS007]

you believe the reason kankkunen changed manufacturers was to prove himself and not because of better money or better contracts or better cars ??? thats star trek universe stuff.....you consider motrsport guys to be Retarded idiots ??? because thats what you have to be to change to a team while your current one gives you everything you ask...would you quit your job to go to a place which is dirtier, less organised with less capabilities of progress to prove you are the best at what you do....???

The afformentioned drivers were give or take around the same age Loeb is now....the fact that you consider them past their peak while Loeb still wins rallies and stages shows enough to support the otherwise totally imaginary argument that he could be equally successful...

the question cannot be answered, but if you are forced to answer it, there are more data that suggest he could be champion during those years multiple times...and quite possibly dominating the era as he is doing it now.

The reasons why Kankkunen changed manufacturers are totally irrelevant; the fact that he won 3 of his 4 titles in 3 different cars makes his achievement more impressive, not less. He proved himself,whether he set out to or not.

Loeb has just turned 38 years old and has been competing for 13 years. In 2004, when Loeb won his first title, Kankkunen was 44 and had been competing for 22 years, Auriol was 45 and had been competing for 20 years, Sainz was 41 and had been competing for 17 years, Makinen was 39 and had been competing for 17 years. Are you seriously arguing that these drivers were not past the peak of their careers during the brief time Loeb was competing against them? Are you seriously suggesting that over the last 8 years Loeb has consistently faced the same level of competition that these drivers faced when they won their titles?

You are quite correct when you say that the question cannot be answered; I stated in an earlier post that I thought that Loeb would have won 3-4 titles during that era, but to suggest, as you did, that he would have won 8 in a row....now that really is Star Trek stuff.

[tfp]

So you say that if Loeb would have competed against the likes of Kankkunen, Sainz, McRae, Biasion, Auriol, Mäkinen, he'd won the title eight times in a row, with that amount of manufacturers?

Not a chance.

Loeb's reign will obviously go down in history, the most succesful of all time. But no matter how hard Loeb tries to avoid it, there will always be a BIG question mark next to his name.

One thing I'd worry about is how many fans the WRC will lose when he retires. WRC fan base must consist of 95% Loeb FanBoi's and 5% of people who crave some REAL competition.

[Plan9]

Depends; Loeb could turn out to be something of a turn off to audiences...

[sollitt]

... but to suggest, as you did, that he would have won 8 in a row....now that really is Star Trek stuff.Not necessarily.
If you accept that Loeb has won 8 on the trot due to his superiority over his oposition throughout this time, and you hold firm in your assertion that he could not have achieved it against these others (Kankkunen, Sainz, McRae, Biasion, Auriol, Mäkinen), you are in effect claiming that Gronholm, Solberg, Martin amongst others, were not the equal of those mentioned.
I'm not sure that's either accurate or reasonable.

I don't believe that Loeb is the best rally driver of all time. He is the best 'competitor' which is what has won him 8 titles, and probably only Rohrl would have come close to matching him on that score.
Loeb is an exceptional talent and would have been in any sport ... in any era.

[N.O.T]

I don't believe that Loeb is the best rally driver of all time. He is the best 'competitor' which is what has won him 8 titles, and probably only Rohrl would have come close to matching him on that score.


funny you compare him with a driver who was too scared (not to use another word) to do Finland.....

[COD]

I must say: Latvala has made 2 ROOKIE mistakes allready in first 3 rallies. There must be something seriously wrong with his ability to concentrate. No driver with so much experience should make mistakes like he did in Monaco and Mexico.

[Francis44]

Loeb said last year that driving on Finland stages sometimes scares him, but I guess it scares everyone.

[Sladden]

Not necessarily.
If you accept that Loeb has won 8 on the trot due to his superiority over his oposition throughout this time, and you hold firm in your assertion that he could not have achieved it against these others (Kankkunen, Sainz, McRae, Biasion, Auriol, Mäkinen), you are in effect claiming that Gronholm, Solberg, Martin amongst others, were not the equal of those mentioned.
I'm not sure that's either accurate or reasonable.

I don't believe that Loeb is the best rally driver of all time. He is the best 'competitor' which is what has won him 8 titles, and probably only Rohrl would have come close to matching him on that score.
Loeb is an exceptional talent and would have been in any sport ... in any era.
Only in 2003-2004 did Loeb have lots of drivers competing for wins. Since then one or two drivers would challenge for rally victories in any given year. Very thin competition...

[Franky]

funny you compare him with a driver who was too scared (not to use another word) to do Finland.....

I'd wonder who wouldn't be scared of doing Finland in a Group B beast. Loads of power, not good enough suspension ...

[N.O.T]

I'd wonder who wouldn't be scared of doing Finland in a Group B beast. Loads of power, not good enough suspension ...

there is a difference between admitting you are scared, but doing it nonetheless and not doing it at all...

[DonJippo]

funny you compare him with a driver who was too scared (not to use another word) to do Finland.....

No he was not there were other reasons for it. Hannu Mikkola once said Röhrl would have won 1000 Lakes if he would have done it few times to get the know the stages and that's was not what Röhrl was ready to do according to Mikkola.

[Barreis]

Not a chance.

Loeb's reign will obviously go down in history, the most succesful of all time. But no matter how hard Loeb tries to avoid it, there will always be a BIG question mark next to his name.

One thing I'd worry about is how many fans the WRC will lose when he retires. WRC fan base must consist of 95% Loeb FanBoi's and 5% of people who crave some REAL competition.

Guy is not guilty he's the best. To be honest Hirvonen and Latvala didn't deserve to be a champ. But for Solberg wouldn't have anything against.

[RAS007]

Not necessarily.
If you accept that Loeb has won 8 on the trot due to his superiority over his oposition throughout this time, and you hold firm in your assertion that he could not have achieved it against these others (Kankkunen, Sainz, McRae, Biasion, Auriol, Mäkinen), you are in effect claiming that Gronholm, Solberg, Martin amongst others, were not the equal of those mentioned.
I'm not sure that's either accurate or reasonable.

I don't believe that Loeb is the best rally driver of all time. He is the best 'competitor' which is what has won him 8 titles, and probably only Rohrl would have come close to matching him on that score.
Loeb is an exceptional talent and would have been in any sport ... in any era.


The hypothetical example I used was Loeb entering the WRC in 1989, which would have meant a decade or so of competing against Kankkunen et al; I maintain that he would not have won 8 titles, in a row or otherwise, against such consistent and numerous high quality oppostion.

As someone else mentioned a few posts ago, for at least half of the 8 titles he has won, he has essentially been competing against a very small (2-3) group of drivers who were capable of winning a WRC event; this can hardly be compared to the WRC in the 90's and early 2000s, where there were multiple drivers capable of fighting for a WRC victory in any given event.

This is not to diminish Martin, Gronholm in any way, because Loeb has not won his 8 titles competing consistently against them, or even against them as part of a larger group of drivers capable of fighting for victory. The 2011 WRC Loeb won his 8th title in bears scant resemblance to the 2004 WRC when Loeb won his first title.

[Vargåsen]

Of course less drivers have had top cars at least between 2006-2011, but still, in the eight years Loeb have won, a Citroen has never been in 2nd, so no second driver (Sainz, Duval, Pons, Sordo, Ogier) have beaten the rest, which I think proves the car has never been superior.

And Grönholm, the driver with 2nd most wrc career wins spent half his career (2004-2007) being beaten by Loeb.

The competition in the early '90s wasnt superduper either, if you look at the results from rally to rally (for example, Miki Biasion, two times wrc-champion and 4th in wrc, '91, '92 and '93 never competed in rally Sweden), very few drivers competed in most rallys. In 1992, only three drivers, Sainz, Kankkunen and Auriol competed in at least 9-10 of the 14 rallys. The rest had very little chance of winning the championship.

Am I wrong?

[Lousada]

I wonder what internet forums would have looked like in the days of Alen, Kankkunen, Auriol... I'm sure the internet experts of 1990 would have ridiculed Kankkunen as a glory hunter for switching teams all the time. They probably would have diminished Sainz because he wasn't competing against Alen, Röhrl and Mikkola. Although others would claim that the rallies in the days of Rauno Aaltonen and Paddy Hopkirk were a lot harder. Tommi Makkinen would be deemed a rally tourist for finishing 9 minutes behind Ross Dunkerton in New Zealand. Ladycup Champions would still not be seen as real champions. It would be claimed that the FIA played favourites to Lancia because Balestre liked Spaghetti Bolognese. People would explain rally was ruined by either 4WD, Group B, Group A, Group 4, Lancia, Audi, Peugeot, FIA, Balestre, F1, BBC, Commentators, Promotors, Spectators, Rally Radio, Journalists, and it would never be as good as 5, 10, 15 or 25 years ago.

[RAS007]

I wonder what internet forums would have looked like in the days of Alen, Kankkunen, Auriol... I'm sure the internet experts of 1990 would have ridiculed Kankkunen as a glory hunter for switching teams all the time. They probably would have diminished Sainz because he wasn't competing against Alen, Röhrl and Mikkola. Although others would claim that the rallies in the days of Rauno Aaltonen and Paddy Hopkirk were a lot harder. Tommi Makkinen would be deemed a rally tourist for finishing 9 minutes behind Ross Dunkerton in New Zealand. Ladycup Champions would still not be seen as real champions. It would be claimed that the FIA played favourites to Lancia because Balestre liked Spaghetti Bolognese. People would explain rally was ruined by either 4WD, Group B, Group A, Group 4, Lancia, Audi, Peugeot, FIA, Balestre, F1, BBC, Commentators, Promotors, Spectators, Rally Radio, Journalists, and it would never be as good as 5, 10, 15 or 25 years ago.

And they would scoff at those who said, "We've never had it so good". Unless of course, they had had a glimpse of the future and had seen what the WRC was to become a mere 20 years later......

[sollitt]

I maintain that he would not have won 8 titles, in a row or otherwise, against such consistent and numerous high quality oppostion. You miss the point. Firstly I haven't stated that Loeb would have won 8 titles. I am merely challenging your assertion that he would not have as it is based on the premise that the quality of opposition in yesteryear was higher than during Loeb's years and leaves no room for accepting that he just may be a standout talent, a freak, who might be capable of sweeping all before him in any era. The numbers of competitors is irrelevant.
It might just be that the Mikkola's, Vatenan's, Kankkunen's etc... were on a par with the Gronholm's, Martins, Solberg's etc... and that Loeb is just that little bit better, if not as a driver, perhaps as a strategist?
There is no way of knowing, so to make such an assertion as you do is to unreasonably undermine the talents of Loeb himself and his competitors.

[N.O.T]

another fact is that ususally when you have a lot of different winners means that the level of driving is not that high...

[RAS007]

You miss the point. Firstly I haven't stated that Loeb would have won 8 titles. I am merely challenging your assertion that he would not have as it is based on the premise that the quality of opposition in yesteryear was higher than during Loeb's years and leaves no room for accepting that he just may be a standout talent, a freak, who might be capable of sweeping all before him in any era. The numbers of competitors is irrelevant.
It might just be that the Mikkola's, Vatenan's, Kankkunen's etc... were on a par with the Gronholm's, Martins, Solberg's etc... and that Loeb is just that little bit better, if not as a driver, perhaps as a strategist?
There is no way of knowing, so to make such an assertion as you do is to unreasonably undermine the talents of Loeb himself and his competitors.

I did not state that you had stated, inferred or otherwise communicated that you thought that Loeb would have won 8 titles. Of course it is possible that he is a freak, a one off talent, who only appears in any given sport once in a lifetime and becomes the master of all, and under those circumstances the level of competition doesn't matter, as you are quite correct to say.

If we put that possibility to one side for a moment, you do not appear to be giving any credence to the idea that Loeb has not consistently faced the same level of competition that he would have in another era, for example, in the 1990s; that it may also be a possibility that his reign, particularly the second half, has coincided with an unprecedented decline in the WRC, in almost any category you could choose. I believe that to be demonstrably true. The greater the number of competitors, the greater the competition. It is quite possible to say that without in any way diminishing, undermining or otherwise casting aspersions on anyone's talent.

[sollitt]

... you do not appear to be giving any credence to the idea that Loeb has not consistently faced the same level of competition that he would have in another era, for example, in the 1990s; Not so. I do give some credence to that possibility, which is why I'm not making any assertions.


The greater the number of competitors, the greater the competition.Only if they're competitive.

[Miika]

Back in the days (= way before the super-rally bs era) even Loeb´s car would have broken down every once in a while, no matter how genius he would have been then compared to the others. So I wouldn´t say he would have been sweeping the floor with the others with the same % as now, simply because of the DNFs that happened to all every now and then back then.

[Karukera]

Since we are swimming in "back in the days" speculations...

Loeb is the best all rounder of all times.
He has the best tarmac vs loose surfaces wins ratio : 43.5 / 56.5%.

Approximately on par with Röhrl (43 / 57) with 14 wins.

If we take a more significant sample, say in the 20 and + wins club, Mäkinen is the 3rd best (29 / 71%), then Alén (25 / 75%), (Sainz (23 / 77%)... That's a huge difference.

So, with his abilities, his physical shape, the fact that he won 23 different rallies (that's 10 more than Sainz), his raw speed on all terrains, it is 'reasonnable' to think that Loeb would have bettered the 4 titles mark.

[leighton323]

I wonder what internet forums would have looked like in the days of Alen, Kankkunen, Auriol... I'm sure the internet experts of 1990 would have ridiculed Kankkunen as a glory hunter for switching teams all the time. They probably would have diminished Sainz because he wasn't competing against Alen, Röhrl and Mikkola. Although others would claim that the rallies in the days of Rauno Aaltonen and Paddy Hopkirk were a lot harder. Tommi Makkinen would be deemed a rally tourist for finishing 9 minutes behind Ross Dunkerton in New Zealand. Ladycup Champions would still not be seen as real champions. It would be claimed that the FIA played favourites to Lancia because Balestre liked Spaghetti Bolognese. People would explain rally was ruined by either 4WD, Group B, Group A, Group 4, Lancia, Audi, Peugeot, FIA, Balestre, F1, BBC, Commentators, Promotors, Spectators, Rally Radio, Journalists, and it would never be as good as 5, 10, 15 or 25 years ago.

Simply the best post on this forum that I have ever read, and I have read every single post made in the last 5 months. And that is NOT and exaggeration. What your saying sums up the whole sport which somehow creates one of the most interesting debates I have ever witnessed. Interesting reading guys :) thanks for the entertainment.

[tfp]

Back in the days (= way before the super-rally bs era) even Loeb´s car would have broken down every once in a while, no matter how genius he would have been then compared to the others. So I wouldn´t say he would have been sweeping the floor with the others with the same % as now, simply because of the DNFs that happened to all every now and then back then.

Thats a point, the cars are so reliable now(exept latvalas :D ).

I think its fair to say Loeb has always had the best car. On gravel and tarmac, it has always been the best, and a league ahead of its competition. Lets not take any of Seb's credit away here - the best car in the world is no good if the driver has no talent (Imagine Kuipers or someone in a factory Citroen vs eg Dani sordo in his non factory Mini). The Citroen has always been and maybe always will be the quickest car on all surfaces, but I'd bet on it being the most reliable aswel(que one of Karukera's surveys :D )

So its fair to say the Citroen manufacturer has always had the edge performance and reliability wise on the hired company M sport. (Even when Subaru were in, there might aswel have been only 2 manufacturers!) So Loeb should be winning, he has the better car.

Another thing that is also important(as we all learned last year, and as Eddie Irvine pointed out) is that the teams must establish a clear number 1 driver. There has never been any if's or but's about this, Loeb has been Citroens golden boy for his entire career, and granted none of his team mates could catch him in his early years, even if they could, it wouldnt matter. Frequelin has his national pride and it wouldnt be until 2011 when Loeb is given only an equal chance in the team. So, Loeb should be winning, he has the fastest and most reliable car and he is the clear number 1 in the winning team.

We have already talked about the competition(or lack of). The fact that Sainz, KKK, Makinen etc were all about ready for retirement. When Martin retired early, Loeb was only a 1 time champion(about to become a double world champion though) Lets not go into Burnsy :( (who incidently shared the same smooth driving style as Loeb) and Petter was in a uncompetitive car and underperforming for some reason. The only man left really was Gronholm, which Loeb beat fair and square on a regular basis, but Gronholm would always steal victories from Loeb also, I bet Loeb secretly hated Gronholm....
So Loeb has always had the best performing and most reliable car, he has always had number one status in the team (exept the first half of last year) and lets be honest, not a lot of competition, not only from other drivers, but from a lack of manufacturers aswel.

Something else is fair to say, in recent years, he is THE best on tarmac, by a long way. The reason being, all of the other tarmac experts (duval, sordo etc) were also citroen drivers :) he went from 2004 to 2011 and only diddnt win one tarmac rally. All of that time, he has practically had drivers points given to him on a plate!

I'm not sure how valid this is, but maybe the timing for him starting his career was also perfect? The fact that all of the previous champions and more experienced drivers had to adjust their style from Grp a to WRC spec cars, where as Loeb was developing his skills, maybe this also played to his advantage. I'm not too sure about this though.

So....to sum things up...
He has always has and always will have the best car, performance and reliability wise, and on every surface.
He has always had a clear number one status in the team,regardless of team mates, except first half of 2011.
He has never had any real competition against other drivers, except Gronholm.
He is the best on tarmac in the world, and has cruised risk free to victory on almost every tarmac round since 2004. He might aswel have been awarded the points without competing.
Citroen's only neccessary aim is to beat M-sport. Easily done when you've got a blank cheque to throw at the cars.
And Maybe, his career timing was also correct.

All of this coupled together with some good driving skill, its hardly surprising he is an 8 time world champion. Citroen have been good to him, they've gone 8 years and never built him a duff car.
But you dont become an 8 time world champion without lady luck rooting for you...

[Barreis]

Longer and longer posts, real novels. :D

[tfp]

Longer and longer posts, real novels. :D

Sorry :D

[Rallyper]

So then we can expect 2013 to be more exciting year regarding we have another real factory team with a really competitve 1st driver, and of course M-sport as the dark horse...

[EightGear]

And HOPEFULLY a well-prepared and funded reborn MINI WRT.

[dimviii]

Thats a point, the cars are so reliable now(exept latvalas :D ).

I think its fair to say Loeb has always had the best car. On gravel and tarmac, it has always been the best, and a league ahead of its competition. Lets not take any of Seb's credit away here - the best car in the world is no good if the driver has no talent (Imagine Kuipers or someone in a factory Citroen vs eg Dani sordo in his non factory Mini). The Citroen has always been and maybe always will be the quickest car on all surfaces, but I'd bet on it being the most reliable aswel(que one of Karukera's surveys :D )

So its fair to say the Citroen manufacturer has always had the edge performance and reliability wise on the hired company M sport. (Even when Subaru were in, there might aswel have been only 2 manufacturers!) So Loeb should be winning, he has the better car.

Another thing that is also important(as we all learned last year, and as Eddie Irvine pointed out) is that the teams must establish a clear number 1 driver. There has never been any if's or but's about this, Loeb has been Citroens golden boy for his entire career, and granted none of his team mates could catch him in his early years, even if they could, it wouldnt matter. Frequelin has his national pride and it wouldnt be until 2011 when Loeb is given only an equal chance in the team. So, Loeb should be winning, he has the fastest and most reliable car and he is the clear number 1 in the winning team.

We have already talked about the competition(or lack of). The fact that Sainz, KKK, Makinen etc were all about ready for retirement. When Martin retired early, Loeb was only a 1 time champion(about to become a double world champion though) Lets not go into Burnsy :( (who incidently shared the same smooth driving style as Loeb) and Petter was in a uncompetitive car and underperforming for some reason. The only man left really was Gronholm, which Loeb beat fair and square on a regular basis, but Gronholm would always steal victories from Loeb also, I bet Loeb secretly hated Gronholm....
So Loeb has always had the best performing and most reliable car, he has always had number one status in the team (exept the first half of last year) and lets be honest, not a lot of competition, not only from other drivers, but from a lack of manufacturers aswel.

Something else is fair to say, in recent years, he is THE best on tarmac, by a long way. The reason being, all of the other tarmac experts (duval, sordo etc) were also citroen drivers :) he went from 2004 to 2011 and only diddnt win one tarmac rally. All of that time, he has practically had drivers points given to him on a plate!

I'm not sure how valid this is, but maybe the timing for him starting his career was also perfect? The fact that all of the previous champions and more experienced drivers had to adjust their style from Grp a to WRC spec cars, where as Loeb was developing his skills, maybe this also played to his advantage. I'm not too sure about this though.

So....to sum things up...
He has always has and always will have the best car, performance and reliability wise, and on every surface.
He has always had a clear number one status in the team,regardless of team mates, except first half of 2011.
He has never had any real competition against other drivers, except Gronholm.
He is the best on tarmac in the world, and has cruised risk free to victory on almost every tarmac round since 2004. He might aswel have been awarded the points without competing.
Citroen's only neccessary aim is to beat M-sport. Easily done when you've got a blank cheque to throw at the cars.
And Maybe, his career timing was also correct.

All of this coupled together with some good driving skill, its hardly surprising he is an 8 time world champion. Citroen have been good to him, they've gone 8 years and never built him a duff car.
But you dont become an 8 time world champion without lady luck rooting for you...

so Loeb is a lucky multichampion without competition and because of No1 inside the Citroen Sport.You forget that they have build a specific car for him.Best Ford fans excuse.
Try better.

[Rallyper]

Thats a point, the cars are so reliable now(exept latvalas :D ).

I think its fair to say Loeb has always had the best car. On gravel and tarmac, it has always been the best, and a league ahead of its competition. Lets not take any of Seb's credit away here - the best car in the world is no good if the driver has no talent (Imagine Kuipers or someone in a factory Citroen vs eg Dani sordo in his non factory Mini). The Citroen has always been and maybe always will be the quickest car on all surfaces, but I'd bet on it being the most reliable aswel(que one of Karukera's surveys :D )

So its fair to say the Citroen manufacturer has always had the edge performance and reliability wise on the hired company M sport. (Even when Subaru were in, there might aswel have been only 2 manufacturers!) So Loeb should be winning, he has the better car.

Another thing that is also important(as we all learned last year, and as Eddie Irvine pointed out) is that the teams must establish a clear number 1 driver. There has never been any if's or but's about this, Loeb has been Citroens golden boy for his entire career, and granted none of his team mates could catch him in his early years, even if they could, it wouldnt matter. Frequelin has his national pride and it wouldnt be until 2011 when Loeb is given only an equal chance in the team. So, Loeb should be winning, he has the fastest and most reliable car and he is the clear number 1 in the winning team.

We have already talked about the competition(or lack of). The fact that Sainz, KKK, Makinen etc were all about ready for retirement. When Martin retired early, Loeb was only a 1 time champion(about to become a double world champion though) Lets not go into Burnsy :( (who incidently shared the same smooth driving style as Loeb) and Petter was in a uncompetitive car and underperforming for some reason. The only man left really was Gronholm, which Loeb beat fair and square on a regular basis, but Gronholm would always steal victories from Loeb also, I bet Loeb secretly hated Gronholm....
So Loeb has always had the best performing and most reliable car, he has always had number one status in the team (exept the first half of last year) and lets be honest, not a lot of competition, not only from other drivers, but from a lack of manufacturers aswel.

Something else is fair to say, in recent years, he is THE best on tarmac, by a long way. The reason being, all of the other tarmac experts (duval, sordo etc) were also citroen drivers :) he went from 2004 to 2011 and only diddnt win one tarmac rally. All of that time, he has practically had drivers points given to him on a plate!

I'm not sure how valid this is, but maybe the timing for him starting his career was also perfect? The fact that all of the previous champions and more experienced drivers had to adjust their style from Grp a to WRC spec cars, where as Loeb was developing his skills, maybe this also played to his advantage. I'm not too sure about this though.

So....to sum things up...
He has always has and always will have the best car, performance and reliability wise, and on every surface.
He has always had a clear number one status in the team,regardless of team mates, except first half of 2011.
He has never had any real competition against other drivers, except Gronholm.
He is the best on tarmac in the world, and has cruised risk free to victory on almost every tarmac round since 2004. He might aswel have been awarded the points without competing.
Citroen's only neccessary aim is to beat M-sport. Easily done when you've got a blank cheque to throw at the cars.
And Maybe, his career timing was also correct.

All of this coupled together with some good driving skill, its hardly surprising he is an 8 time world champion. Citroen have been good to him, they've gone 8 years and never built him a duff car.
But you dont become an 8 time world champion without lady luck rooting for you...

Dimvii/ You shouldn´t have any problems with this quote. It just tells the way it is and that Seb is great but wouldn´t have been if Citroen had the car known from around 86 or so....(don´t remember the year exactly but you probably know which car I mean)

[N.O.T]

the pain remains and grows...

humans vs doggys...who wins ?

[tfp]

Dimvii/ You shouldn´t have any problems with this quote. It just tells the way it is and that Seb is great but wouldn´t have been if Citroen had the car known from around 86 or so....(don´t remember the year exactly but you probably know which car I mean)

Exactly, to cut a long story short, Loebs timing was perfect and had the perfect team around him, thats why I believe he is so succesful.

How much more interesting would it have been if Ogier started his career back in 2001, and the drivers were given equal number one status? I wonder if Loeb would still be on top?

No one gives Ogier the same credit as Makinen and Sainz and other greats, and yet he won the same number of events as Loeb last season.

[tfp]

the pain remains and grows...

humans vs doggys...who wins ?

You have the wrong thread :p

http://www.motorsportforums.com/chitchat/151229-pet-thread.html

[N.O.T]

You have the wrong thread :p

http://www.motorsportforums.com/chitchat/151229-pet-thread.html

thank you

Nice thread.

[tfp]

thank you

Nice thread.

Dont thank me, thank A.F.F ;)

[Plan9]

+1 I agree with tfp;

I think it has been a bit of a stretch to hypothesize about how Loeb would have gone in the 1990s. I am also interested to see that some posts on here have talked down the significance of the 1990s in WRC. I think that the drivers were of top quality in the top teams (for instance I don't think we had the same number of pay drivers then as now) and the sport itself was growing its audience and being a success commercially. If anything Loeb would not have had is easy then as car manufacturers had more money to invest and Citroen would not have one had 1 or 2 independent efforts (M-Sport and Pordrive) to knock off.

[Coach 2]

Although it looks like Loeb already this year, have the other competitors in the palm of his hand, and can crush them whenever he wants, and most probable are the best driver rally world has ever seen, and has won with cars built according to very different rules, and to compare what he has done with other decades is a waste of time, I would still say that some of what tfp says, is true.

[janvanvurpa]

Longer and longer posts, real novels. :D

Yes, good creative writing exercises, or first works of fiction...TFP...maybe it stands for Totally Fictional Post.
I wonder what it is that seems to compel people to write with such earnestness about things they obviously have observed but know nothing about?

[janvanvurpa]

Sorry but I have a hard time reading the stiff that speaks in such HUGE certainties and speaks of "big differences' when even Mr 5 Year Plan-son is within a tiny % slower than Loeb and the real drivers within less than 1% time or speed.

I say the difference, the tiny tiny difference is not all the different cars all "tailored" to Loeb (what a silly suggestion---everybody tunes their cars to suit themselves---dont YOU?) etc. I say it is his inner discipline..For christsakes, he was a high level gymnast---and that means its 100% your own efforts, no mechanics, nop special tuning.. Just muscles and a small part of the brain called DRIVE, or determination. In gymnastics there's nobody to blame, and he was high level..
Years of inner discipline gives a person a tiny edge over just skill.
You don't make as many BIG BLUNDERS..

[sollitt]

I think it has been a bit of a stretch to hypothesize about how Loeb would have gone in the 1990s.
The only people who are hypothesizing how Loeb would have gone in the 90's (or any era) are those who are claiming, emphatically, that he would not have won 8 titles. Those of the opposing view are merely leaving the door open to the possibilty that he could have.
In order to discount something absolutely you must bring absolute, irrefutable reasoning which denies any counter possibility. Nobody has yet done so.


I am also interested to see that some posts on here have talked down the significance of the 1990s in WRC. I think that the drivers were of top quality in the top teamsNobody has "talked down" the significance of the 90's at all. What has been asked is whether we can fairly assert that the drivers of the 80's & 90's etc... had any greater credentials to take the fight to Loeb than Gronholm for example.

John's post above echoes my earlier post and one in another thread some months ago and is right on the money. Loeb is a winner. It is in his DNA.

[Leon]

I thought this is JML thread.....

[bretddog]

Sorry but I have a hard time reading the stiff that speaks in such HUGE certainties and speaks of "big differences' when even Mr 5 Year Plan-son is within a tiny % slower than Loeb and the real drivers within less than 1% time or speed.

Your interpretation of others belief I think is quite wrong. At this level 0.5% performance deficit IS a huge difference.

[janvanvurpa]

Your interpretation of others belief I think is quite wrong. At this level 0.5% performance deficit IS a huge difference.


Was it you that was arguing forever on some mere bagatelle a few weeks ago? Can't rememeber but one of you Norsk-djavlar was being absurd..

Let's see if we can clarify the point for you so you don't go on and on and on forever arguing.

IF one guys car was "way" faster, all other things being equal,

THEN there would be "way big" performance or time differences.

And.....if there were "way big" performance advantages........and yet quite literally the time difference is less than 1/1000 between Loeb and all the others,

THEN.....all the others MUST BE better drivers in order to overcome this long list of HHHUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuUUUUUGE advantages Loebs CAR gives him...

I'm sorry when I read stuff Totally Fictional Post careful list and now you destroying language single handed.. I really want to know just what your ---or everybody's involvement in motorsports is.......like a) what have YOU done to what level so we have some idea IF you have some actaul insight of what is involved, or is like the pitiful guy who I do NOT want to mention, you live a horrible frustrating life in a cave---or in the guy who I do NOT want to name, a lab, doing mind-crusingly boring routine everyday and who probably is only let out on good behavior occasional---and who maybe never did a thing in any kind of motorsport...
And B) what sort of extensive contact and conversations stretching over how many years have you had with Wörlds Champignonskit level anybodies?


See if you want to converse and put forth ideas it does help to know in what situation those ideas were forged.

And if you tell us about your experience and you years of extensive conversations with elite World level guys, then we can understand better how and why you can casually dismiss the role in drive in people's brain and posit that it all is simplistic mechanistic differences "he has a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY faster car and a WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better team and ......."

So go on, tell us about yourself...

[bretddog]

Was it you
...

It's always a pity to see people who believe they are entitled to respect or facts because of what they are or have done. There are reasons why I won the last conversation, and why I will win this one, and to be involved in motorsport for all your life unfortunately is not gonna help you a tiny bit. So just take a deep breathe, and try to make a soft landing.

To win a rally by 1 minute I think many consider today a huge gap. And that's ~0.5%. Or if you talk to a mechanical engineer, 0.5% is definately a huge performance gain.

Still the point is not to argue the definition of huge or big. The point is you make the judgement that when people say huge, it means like 5 or 10% ?, while the likely truth you don't consider is that they use just different words than yourself to describe a much smaller and realistic difference.

And why you're not able to recognize different literal wording for the same things, is probably a little bit because your head is too big for your helmet.

[tfp]

Yes, good creative writing exercises, or first works of fiction...TFP...maybe it stands for Totally Fictional Post.
I wonder what it is that seems to compel people to write with such earnestness about things they obviously have observed but know nothing about?

If I wanted an out of touch, ageing old farts opinion I would have joined a bowls club....

Congratulations Jan', you are the first to go on my ignore list :champion: Goodbye....

[Rallyper]

Easy boys. It´s just in the morning in America and John just got up. So he ain´t be so packad ännu. Just let him argue the way he does. You know anyway what he means and not.

He´s not N.O.T.

[Kielder]

So... :s

Sometimes is really surprising how deep a "so" can be...

[janvanvurpa]

It's always a pity to see people who believe they are entitled to respect or facts because of what they are or have done. There are reasons why I won the last conversation, and why I will win this one, and to be involved in motorsport for all your life unfortunately is not gonna help you a tiny bit. So just take a deep breathe, and try to make a soft landing.

To win a rally by 1 minute I think many consider today a huge gap. And that's ~0.5%. Or if you talk to a mechanical engineer, 0.5% is definately a huge performance gain.

Still the point is not to argue the definition of huge or big. The point is you make the judgement that when people say huge, it means like 5 or 10% ?, while the likely truth you don't consider is that they use just different words than yourself to describe a much smaller and realistic difference.

And why you're not able to recognize different literal wording for the same things, is probably a little bit because your head is too big for your helmet.

joooo visst now we see it was you who liked to argue.. And completely ignore direct questions.....

My head isn't big, its just I have different insight maybe from being active in this sport for a couple of decades, and not only a spectator like 99% here. That's why i try and ask who and what someboidy has done so i can understand where and from what in their background that helped form their opinions..

Och drengen jag vet folk använder andra ord och andra meningar och att här många är tvungen att skriva i ett språk dom är kanske inte så bra i. därför jag FRÅGA vad folk menar...Tyvärr ta många alla frågor som nån slags attack och blirt stöddiga..... synd.


Let's say you win, which is always your point. 1/1000 is huge....


But I'm curious why you are afraid to tell us your rally background or other motorsport background_ I think you have none and are just a Northern version of somebody who I do NOT want to mention....an Inter-net hero...or keyboard warrior..Fine, you win, you are BIG MAN.
Maybe 1/1000 bigger than me! Wooooot!

[janvanvurpa]

If I wanted an out of touch, ageing old farts opinion I would have joined a bowls club....

Congratulations Jan', you are the first to go on my ignore list :champion: Goodbye....


Such a shame, at least you could have told us just how you are so "in touch"? Are you a competitor? Or work everyday on rally cars? What do you do?

Well i have to get back to work......building rally car suspension: today its 2 Subarus, one Nissan 240, one RX7, and repair 2 other Subies rear struts, and 1 Escort Cossie...
Duty Calls!

[bretddog]

joooo visst now we see it was you who liked to argue.. And completely ignore direct questions.....

My head isn't big, its just I have different insight maybe from being active in this sport for a couple of decades, and not only a spectator like 99% here. That's why i try and ask who and what someboidy has done so i can understand where and from what in their background that helped form their opinions..

Och drengen jag vet folk använder andra ord och andra meningar och att här många är tvungen att skriva i ett språk dom är kanske inte så bra i. därför jag FRÅGA vad folk menar...Tyvärr ta många alla frågor som nån slags attack och blirt stöddiga..... synd.


Let's say you win, which is always your point. 1/1000 is huge....


But I'm curious why you are afraid to tell us your rally background or other motorsport background_ I think you have none and are just a Northern version of somebody who I do NOT want to mention....an Inter-net hero...or keyboard warrior..Fine, you win, you are BIG MAN.
Maybe 1/1000 bigger than me! Wooooot!


No I don't do motorsport. Though my sport is faster than your sport, so it still happens we other humans also have a little bit of fun. ;)

What difference does it make to my logic what background I have? A sentence is a sentence. Only if your dyslexic would such information have any meaning.. But if it's so important to you, I can say I've designed installations incorporating a million tons of steel. And although I haven't, I could certainly design you a rally car.

But you keep supporting my argument; you started with 1% not being huge, and now you're down to 1/1000. So you cut it 10-fold in one post. Certainly I agree 1/1000 is not much, but I think in the range 5 to 10/1000s is. All I pointed out to you was I believe this is the range people here refer to, as you thought they meant much more..

So to be a bit serious, because this is an interesting issue. With your great involvement in rally, what would be your best guess performance difference of the top Fords and Citroens during the last 2-3 years? And what would be the basis of that guess? I'm certainly humble to the possibility you may have greater knowledge. But knowledge should lead to good logic, not just waving your cups and diplomas in the face of people.

[cali]

There are reasons why I won the last conversation, and why I will win this one, and to be involved in motorsport for all your life unfortunately is not gonna help you a tiny bit. So just take a deep breathe, and try to make a soft landing.

So this is now a World Cup of comments :D
Who has decided that you have won those conversations and what are benchmarks? Damn funny, I must say :D

[janvanvurpa]

So this is now a World Cup of comments :D
Who has decided that you have won those conversations and what are benchmarks? Damn funny, I must say :D

Yep it is all about winning the big Debatt.... and he is sooooooooooooooooo much faster, I already concede victory.
Didn't you see that? He beat me on the forum by a massive margin therefore I already siad he's a bigger man than me and probably has a much bigger schwanger
by a huge margin, at least 1/1000 bigger...!

Cali the least you could do is show me some pity when I have been so crushed.....pobre mio!

[noel157]

More like WRC of kindergarten playground arguments. :)

[Franky]

I wonder where's Brother John ...

[Viking]

I wonder where's Brother John ...

Me too, even if i am quite amused of this "I got an bigger.....helmet than you" quarrel :)

[janvanvurpa]

No I don't do motorsport.
quelle surprise. 8(


What difference does it make to my logic what background I have?

It makes a huge difference when a person who has never done something believes they know what is the critical parts of the total equation.
It means they are just blabbering, skit-prat det är kallat med andra ord.





A sentence is a sentence. Only if your dyslexic would such information have any meaning..

Now what does that mean? I have been told that I missed my calling and should have been a semiotician and yet I have no idea what you are attempting to say there. but its not important.



But if it's so important to you, I can say I've designed installations incorporating a million tons of steel.

Oh yes, now I see why you know exactly why Latvala is getting his ass kicked by Loeb...

Which is, after al,l what this thread in this forum is about.




And although I haven't, I could certainly design you a rally car.

Yeah. Sure. Experience obviously counts for nothing.




So to be a bit serious, because this is an interesting issue. With your great involvement in rally, what would be your best guess performance difference of the top Fords and Citroens during the last 2-3 years?

The tiny difference comes from some unknown, unquantifiable difference somewhere deep inside the lower part of Loebs brain. Not the intellect, not logic (it is totally illogical to drive cars fast as hell down skinny roads) it is called desire or drive or something...or discipline...and knowing just when to back off the gas.



And what would be the basis of that guess?

Who said it's a guess?



I'm certainly humble to the possibility you may have greater knowledge.

Det borde vara ett självklarhet.

A good part of it comes from personal memory from going from a complete beginner in a branch of motorsport far far more physically demanding and after 10 years of insane amounts of (eventually) systematic training, finally reaching a skill level just below Wörlds Champignonskit level and in that 10 years meeting and knowing (and sharing garage with, and training with and learning mechanical skills with, and every single aspect of building and maintaining the race vehicle, ) virtually every World Champion from 1959 thru 1982 except Viktor Arbekov, Paul Freidrichs and Gennady Moisieev who were Russian and East German. And knowing and working with dozens of Swedish Championship drivers, and later German Champions and Vice Champions, Spanish, Swiss, and French elit..
And this was not saying ''Hej på dig'' at the tracks, it was disassembling and assembling the bikes, modifying the chassis, building and modyfying suspension constantly for 7 years, building the motors in their garages, physical training, recuperation training from serious injuries, drinking ndless beer discussing what made them go, the central role of DRIVE (motivering, gnista, vilja) which in the end was THE Decisive element in the equation.
We ALL used your overvalued ''logic'' and analytical thinking to assist in a totally emotional endeavor.

But everything including the motorcycle was secondary to desire...

When I had stronger muscles, and equal cardiovascular condition, and a BETTER suspended bike than my friend Werner Schütz, and I could build his shocks to work good, show him how to make his brakes work a bit better----but not as good as mine, what was the element that made him beat me so bad?
Experience and DRIVE.



But knowledge should lead to good logic, not just waving your cups and diplomas in the face of people

Logic plays a tiny role in the total motorsport equation. Experience counts even more than intelligence.
It is clear in the real world you have some intelligence, and in your work designing big projects with millions of tons of steel, logic probably counts..

But you clearly have no idea of the the value of even the simplest of things in motorsport.

That's why I asked if you had any background in motorsports, especially on loose surface, either cars or bikes..


There‘s an old saying "To a carpenter, everything looks like a nail"
There should be one for engineers who are so aggressive in field they have no training or experience in "To an "Injur-near" everything looks like a ......"

[janvanvurpa]

Me too, even if i am quite amused of this "I got an bigger.....helmet than you" quarrel :)

I don't even see an argument. He is an engineer and can design a whole rally car and I am just a dumb-fawk who rallied wonderful Saab cars and now inbetween posts here, welds steel into rally parts which people win events with. I already conceded...

I defense I did try to focus on just why Loeb is HUGELY faster than Lathunden Latvala, that was the whole point of my mistakenly saying anything.

Fan det här har blivit en ren Norge-historia! 8)

[sollitt]

Spot on John. Unfortunately the world is full of kids who believe all answers revolve around what they see on their computer screens. It is the essense of mediocrity.

[Coach 2]

Spot on John. Unfortunately the world is full of kids who believe all answers revolve around what they see on their computer screens. It is the essense of mediocrity.

And all adults should lead them into the right direction and tell them politely that the world is often more complex than it seems. This looks more like an execution, than well-meaning advice from someone who should understand better.

Pathetic.

[bretddog]

I don't even see an argument. He is an engineer and can design a whole rally car and I am just a dumb-fawk who rallied wonderful Saab cars and now inbetween posts here, welds steel into rally parts which people win events with. I already conceded...

I defense I did try to focus on just why Loeb is HUGELY faster than Lathunden Latvala, that was the whole point of my mistakenly saying anything.

Fan det här har blivit en ren Norge-historia! 8)


Your problem is you assume a whole essay of opinions to my name that I've never written. I never discussed a word about driver talent, I'm talking about car performance.

I have no problem to recognize, respect and admire Loebs great talent, and I could elaborate on that to a much greater extent that would take here half a page. But short, imo he is by a good margin the best rally driver, and I think also the best of history. Yet for some reason, you and a few others, find it completely incomprehensible that he can be that, while also(!) having a car that performs maybe 0.5% better than the competition. Why on earth are those things mutually exclusive?

If Loeb had a worse car, an equal car, or a faster car, he would still have the exact same skills as a driver, mental and physical capabilities. He would still be the best, as I consider him a superior talent. But his results would vary.

And if YOU are given double the money and double the engineering power to build a car. Don't you think you would be able to make it more than 1/1000 quicker, seriously?

..All the emotion you put into this forum, it's ridiculous, and just comes from your inability to focus.

[Rallyper]

I don't even see an argument. He is an engineer and can design a whole rally car and I am just a dumb-fawk who rallied wonderful Saab cars and now inbetween posts here, welds steel into rally parts which people win events with. I already conceded...

I defense I did try to focus on just why Loeb is HUGELY faster than Lathunden Latvala, that was the whole point of my mistakenly saying anything.

Fan det här har blivit en ren Norge-historia! 8)

I´m not sure everyone understands your swenglish. But I´m having some funny moments. And understand your arguing very well. Keep on John!!

[Rallyper]

Your problem is you assume a whole essay of opinions to my name that I've never written. I never discussed a word about driver talent, I'm talking about car performance.

I have no problem to recognize, respect and admire Loebs great talent, and I could elaborate on that to a much greater extent that would take here half a page. But short, imo he is by a good margin the best rally driver, and I think also the best of history. Yet for some reason, you and a few others, find it completely incomprehensible that he can be that, while also(!) having a car that performs maybe 0.5% better than the competition. Why on earth are those things mutually exclusive?

If Loeb had a worse car, an equal car, or a faster car, he would still have the exact same skills as a driver, mental and physical capabilities. He would still be the best, as I consider him a superior talent. But his results would vary.

And if YOU are given double the money and double the engineering power to build a car. Don't you think you would be able to make it more than 1/1000 quicker, seriously?

..All the emotion you put into this forum, it's ridiculous, and just comes from your inability to focus.

You forget that we all compare Loeb to his contemporary competitiors, not ourselves. And that would be a huge difference in your example. Don´t troll with words for an excuse. Please!

[bretddog]

You forget that we all compare Loeb to his contemporary competitiors, not ourselves. And that would be a huge difference in your example. Don´t troll with words for an excuse. Please!
A completely useless comment. It's of course just a parallel for thought, the question aims obviously to Ford/Citroen.

[olschl]

I wonder what internet forums would have looked like in the days of Alen, Kankkunen, Auriol... I'm sure the internet experts of 1990 would have ridiculed Kankkunen as a glory hunter for switching teams all the time. They probably would have diminished Sainz because he wasn't competing against Alen, Röhrl and Mikkola. Although others would claim that the rallies in the days of Rauno Aaltonen and Paddy Hopkirk were a lot harder. Tommi Makkinen would be deemed a rally tourist for finishing 9 minutes behind Ross Dunkerton in New Zealand. Ladycup Champions would still not be seen as real champions. It would be claimed that the FIA played favourites to Lancia because Balestre liked Spaghetti Bolognese. People would explain rally was ruined by either 4WD, Group B, Group A, Group 4, Lancia, Audi, Peugeot, FIA, Balestre, F1, BBC, Commentators, Promotors, Spectators, Rally Radio, Journalists, and it would never be as good as 5, 10, 15 or 25 years ago.

Well said! Every era has its purists and as an "outsider looking in", I have immensely enjoyed all the eras of WRC going back as far as I can find footage which is the middle 80s.

[RAS007]

Ok. So far this year for Jari-Matti, we have: crash, win, crash, crash. My question is: how much longer will Malcolm continue with JM as Number 1? Is there a case to be made for Petter being moved to Number 1, or at least "equal" status?

[RS]

Ok. So far this year for Jari-Matti, we have: crash, win, crash, crash. My question is: how much longer will Malcolm continue with JM as Number 1? Is there a case to be made for Petter being moved to Number 1, or at least "equal" status?

No, they shouldn't reverse the policy, they should just drop it. It was stupid in the first place and JML has managed to prove it even more so now that the season is underway.

We could look on the bright side and say at least JML has a 100% win-finish record :)

[Rallyper]

Having annoyed JML above, I must say in this race (Portugal) he´s forgiven because much of what happened wasn´t his fault. And as this is written the results isn´t yet. But still he can get important point in the manus championship.

What´s happened so far this year can really happen to any one. Look at Loeb - where is his critics?

[Mirek]

What´s happened so far this year can really happen to any one. Look at Loeb - where is his critics?

There were sooooo many critics on Loeb during past days. You could not miss them in Portugal thread and elsewhere.

[noel157]

I wonder if VW's view of Latvala has changed?

[Barreis]

If they signed him, they're crazy.

[Martin Luijk]

If they signed him, they're crazy.

If that guy stops crashing when he's 30, he still can will 8 titles ;)

[Rallyper]

There were sooooo many critics on Loeb during past days. You could not miss them in Portugal thread and elsewhere.

No way as much as for certain Ford boys. Just some tiny lines...

[dimviii]

No way as much as for certain Ford boys. Just some tiny lines...

of course.69 wins is way different from 20 destroyed chassis.
Why you find it strange for less critics for Loeb?When you have 8 championships and 69 wins,people will ''forgive'' some mistakes.
If you have 10 years at wrc,and you straggling to finish a rally,or to collect points as a number 1,you are going to have bad critics.Specially when the number 2 of your team have double points and finishes every rally.
Take a close look at Latvalas statitics and you will not find it strange.

[N.O.T]

I wonder if VW's view of Latvala has changed?

VW never had a view on Latvala... the managers of Latvala had a view on VW. Latvala so far isn;t doing himself any favours...

VW signed their "Latvala" in the face of Ogier, he is going to be their No1 driver...now they need to find a "Hirvonen"....and Latvala is no Hirvonen from any point of view....

[Rallyper]

Still JML is one of the fastest. Maybe not consistent all the time but still...

You can´t ignore that. even as a team-boss.

[N.O.T]

Still JML is one of the fastest. Maybe not consistent all the time but still...

You can´t ignore that. even as a team-boss.

nobody ignores that but VW want to win the manufacturers title...they cannot do that with Latvala and Ogier in the team while Citroen are having Loeb and Hirvonen.

Currently VWs first choice should be Sordo for 2nd driver.

[Juha_Koo]

JML has somehow lost it... Not maybe in the terms of "skill" but more like "golden touch". Season started very well in Monte, I was surprised about his tarmac pace. Then the note-thinking and ice patch. Crash.

Excellent recovery in Sweden taking a dominant win. Showed how to keep his head cool even though the late drama with the puncture. I thought that this will be JM's year and he'll win the championship. Then came Mexico. Leading the rally, then bad luck with the rock. Penultimate stage, gets scared Novikov's car, maybe little excess speed. Game over.

After Loeb's off in Portugal I thought that this is going to be a walk in the park. I was in a caféteria when I got the news to my phone on Friday. Luckily my iPhone is still in one piece. The golden touch seems to elude JM. Now he is very disappointed and down. What could he do anymore? Portugal off was the first time when also Miikka swore in an aggressive way. Did you see videos of JM after the crash? He was angry - not sad as he usually is. Swearing and throwing rocks. I don't know how serious JM was in his words when he said that maybe he should do something else. Even I am somehow mentally exhausted by his situation. For f*cks sake, why can't things work out for just once for him?

[userwave]

Still JML is one of the fastest. Maybe not consistent all the time but still...

You can´t ignore that. even as a team-boss.

give JML a break, he has shown incredible pace on tarmac lately,
I give him a few more events this year to pull it all together...

a few more retirements though and he'll be rolling himself right out of a works seat I'm sure.

[N.O.T]

a few more retirements though and he'll be rolling himself right out of a works seat I'm sure.

that is a bit harsh... there are not many replacements for him right now apart from Sordo...but in 2-3 years there will be...

[userwave]

that is a bit harsh... there are not many replacements for him right now apart from Sordo...but in 2-3 years there will be...

I suppose your right, but I can sense Ford getting more and more frustrated with him, and he may not be looking as attractive to VW lately either.

time will tell !

[Plan9]

Juha_Koo- your cooments reflect how I feel about Meeke sometimes.

[RS]

Still JML is one of the fastest. Maybe not consistent all the time but still...

You can´t ignore that. even as a team-boss.

Maybe lots of people could drive as fast as JML and crash 3 rallies out of 4. To finish first, first you have to finish.

[EuroTroll]

Maybe lots of people could drive as fast as JML and crash 3 rallies out of 4.

No way. I think 95% of drivers wouldn't get further than 100 m if they tried JML's speed.

[Sulland]

Take away the number 1 status from his head, and have Petter take that headache for him. He is one of the fastest drivers, but his head does not seem to be ready for the responsibility yet.

[miksu]

Not easy to support those Finns. One is crazy-fast but cant keep it on the road and other one lacks balls and is a boring, booooring, pointscorer. sigh

[Plan9]

Mikko has still got more wins though....

[sollitt]

Take away the number 1 status from his head, and have Petter take that headache for him. He is one of the fastest drivers, but his head does not seem to be ready for the responsibility yet.Things must have changed over the years. Used to be the #1 went balls out for the win and the #2 drove a bit more sedately to secure points if #1 failed. Who changed the rules?

[Adler]

Not easy to support those Finns. One is crazy-fast but cant keep it on the road and other one lacks balls and is a boring, booooring, pointscorer. sigh
Mikko does a fantastic job so far in this rallye, it´s not his fault that all others makes mistakes, he even improves the gap to his followers by cruising!
wouldn´t be smart to push as hell at all!

[miksu]

Mikko does a fantastic job so far in this rallye, it´s not his fault that all others makes mistakes, he even improves the gap to his followers by cruising!
wouldn´t be smart to push as hell at all!

yes, i know that. Mikko is doing what he needs to do now. But im not talking about this rally, thats how its been last couple of years already.

[denkimi]

Take a close look at Latvalas statitics and you will not find it strange.
if you take a close look on his statistics, you see real they're really not as bad as most people seem to remember.
eWRC-results.com - profile Jari-Matti Latvala (http://www.ewrc-results.com/profile.php?p=31&t=Jari-Matti-Latvala)

[OldF]

Note that these statistics includes also PWRC.

juwra.com**|**Statistics - Retirements (http://www.juwra.com/stats_dnf.html)

[TMorel]

Note that these statistics includes also PWRC.

juwra.com**|**Statistics - Retirements (http://www.juwra.com/stats_dnf.html)

Hey, has anyone noticed some kid called Matthew Wilson has one of the top three "lowest retirement ratios" !
I'm glad we've got statistics like this, hopefully someone will spot it and give him a works seat.

[tfp]

Hey, has anyone noticed some kid called Matthew Wilson has one of the top three "lowest retirement ratios" !
I'm glad we've got statistics like this, hopefully someone will spot it and give him a works seat.

Haha! Fair play to Matt, I think he would have done quite well in Portugal. He is always good at bringing the car home, if nothing else! Maybe another 4th place or something ;)

[Doon]

Hey, has anyone noticed some kid called Matthew Wilson has one of the top three "lowest retirement ratios" !
I'm glad we've got statistics like this, hopefully someone will spot it and give him a works seat.

Are you joking?! No offence to the lad but why would a works team sign MW just because he finishes events?

[N.O.T]

Are you joking?! No offence to the lad but why would a works team sign MW just because he finishes events?

i think he was ironic....maybe.

[TMorel]

Are you joking?! No offence to the lad but why would a works team sign MW just because he finishes events?

Well people had started to wheel out the stats, so if we can criticise JML from our armchairs for one set of statistics then surely we can praise Matty for another set of statistics - unless of course statistics aren't the be all and end all ?

[Nornbugger]

Note that these statistics includes also PWRC.

juwra.com**|**Statistics - Retirements (http://www.juwra.com/stats_dnf.html)


interesting statistics, I wonder how they would look if superrally/rally2 were to be reclassified as retirements? Todays drivers have more reliable cars too which means that no matter how you try to compile these lists they end up a bit wrong

[TMorel]

Anyway, my own feeling is I've always loved JML, think it's great the way he wears his heart on his sleeve but was hampered by having to "overdrive" the Ford as it didn't have the legs of the Citroën which more than once or twice led to silly - but at the time I felt forgiveable - mistakes.
Now? Now he does seem to be throwing things away in silly ways and although as a spectator out in the stages I'd rather watch JML (assuming he made it as far as my corner) than Mikko's safe plodding, I'm not Malcolm and based on Loriaux's outburst it does sound like patience is running out in Dovenby Hall :(

[Rallyper]

So what did he actually do in Portugal. He cut a corner and there was a stone. The stone broke something in his front left suspension and he went off. That could have happened toa nyone.
It´s his driving style and that´s never gonna change, because it´s the way he do to make fastest stagetimes.

Besides that he had technical failure that cost him another 12 minutes. Is it his fault or what??

If he´d gon off like LOeb did in this event I might understand your frustrations here - but HEY - try to be a bit more honest to the fastest guy in the series, please!

[Barreis]

How can JML be fastest guy in the series?! Where are the results?

[Rallyper]

QUOTE=Barreis;1023349]How can JML be fastest guy in the series?! Where are the results?[/QUOTE]

If you take a deep breath and think once again, maybe you´ll understand what I mean. ;)

[Barreis]

Maybe in your own universe. ;)

[Rallyper]

The main rules to be a winner must be like this:

1) Be fast
2) Be consistent
3) Don´t be unlucky
4) Use tactics when necessary

Any of these absent you´ll never win.

JML wins, but didn´t this time.

[Psycho!]

[/QUOTE]
If you take a deep breath and think once again, maybe you´ll understand what I mean. ;) [/QUOTE]
Guys listen a moment cause we have a misunderstanding here... Rallyper didn't say Latvala is the BEST,he said he is the FASTEST...To be the best you need all the qualifications in a relatively very good to perfect grade...Loeb who is the best has a very good speed,a very good consistency,a very good reliability as a driver...JML has excellent speed but lacks consistency and reliability...What you don't understand Barreis???

[Barreis]

If you take a deep breath and think once again, maybe you´ll understand what I mean. ;) [/QUOTE]
Guys listen a moment cause we have a misunderstanding here... Rallyper didn't say Latvala is the BEST,he said he is the FASTEST...To be the best you need all the qualifications in a relatively very good to perfect grade...Loeb who is the best has a very good speed,a very good consistency,a very good reliability as a driver...JML has excellent speed but lacks consistency and reliability...What you don't understand Barreis???[/QUOTE]

Now I understand excellent. :D

[Rallyper]

IT IS his fault, he cutted the corner where he shouldn't. I'm sure if there was this stone, 90% would have "don't cut" in their pacenotes... Don't try to blame anything else, JML makes a lot of mistakes, more than a "number 1" driver should. But he'll always be one of my favourite WRC drivers, "stupid" (to tell it with a bad word) drivers are often the most spectacular guys to see when they're still in...

Every driver cuts corners. Sometimes they don´t because they´ve seen a stone or something i that corner on the recce and have it their pacenotes. Alright?

Sometimes when they cut, especially having 15 drivers before you doing the same, something unwanted happens. Like a big stone thrown up from the dich, which wasn´t there in the first place. It could very well be what made JML misfortuned this time.

You sure understand that, Tommeke_B?

[dimviii]

Every driver cuts corners. Sometimes they don´t because they´ve seen a stone or something i that corner on the recce and have it their pacenotes. Alright?

Sometimes when they cut, especially having 15 drivers before you doing the same, something unwanted happens. Like a big stone thrown up from the dich, which wasn´t there in the first place. It could very well be what made JML misfortuned this time.

You sure understand that, Tommeke_B?

Stones thrown on the road from other cars only for Jari? Cant understant why we have to find excuses....
Jaris as Petter driving styles are prone to ''troubles'' ,and thats is not something new.

[Rallyper]

Stones thrown on the road from other cars only for Jari? Cant understant why we have to find excuses....
Jaris as Petter driving styles are prone to ''troubles'' ,and thats is not something new.

That I know also. Still there can be unwanted stones. Not an excuse.

[A.F.F.]

God for bid it is easier to make a fast driver consistent than other way around. Maybe Latvala one day will be a champion ?? Like Vatanen... or McRae...... or Grönholm.

[Barreis]

Maybe it's better that man should be a champ. :D

[Allyc85]

God for bid it is easier to make a fast driver consistent than other way around. Maybe Latvala one day will be a champion ?? Like Vatanen... or McRae...... or Grönholm.

I would like to think so, but mistakes destroy JML. His interview after the latest mistake was almost sad to watch it had affected him so badly, while the above drivers could easily recover at the next round and put it behind them.

[Juha_Koo]

IT IS his fault, he cutted the corner where he shouldn't. I'm sure if there was this stone, 90% would have "don't cut" in their pacenotes...

Have you seen the onboard or the rock? JM really didn't even cut a corner, as there was this hillside next to the road. JM just kept it inside where there was this loose rock rolling on the road. He didn't hit anything "solid" in the meaning that it wasn't bedrock. JM kicked it off the road later:

http://juhake.kapsi.fi/motorsport/portugal_rock.jpg

[N.O.T]

Another magic rock appeared out of nowhere for Latvala.....

Damn you Magic Rock !!! Damn you !!!

[denkimi]

interesting statistics, I wonder how they would look if superrally/rally2 were to be reclassified as retirements? Todays drivers have more reliable cars too which means that no matter how you try to compile these lists they end up a bit wrong
but on the other hand, in earlier days they had flying service. if they broke something on stage and could ge to the end of the stage, they likely could get it fixed.

[janvanvurpa]

interesting statistics, I wonder how they would look if superrally/rally2 were to be reclassified as retirements? Todays drivers have more reliable cars too which means that no matter how you try to compile these lists they end up a bit wrong


Yep, I can think of one driver with 20 WRC starts who would have very interesting stats if they showed "crashed and went Superrally on SS1 or SS2"
He might be even Champion of Crashing on SS1 or SS2....
Can't think of the name now, must be having a mental-block.

[N.O.T]

Yep, I can think of one driver with 20 WRC starts who would have very interesting stats if they showed "crashed and went Superrally on SS1 or SS2"
He might be even Champion of Crashing on SS1 or SS2....
Can't think of the name now, must be having a mental-block.

the one you are thinking of is not a driver...

[Mirek]

Yep, I can think of one driver with 20 WRC starts who would have very interesting stats if they showed "crashed and went Superrally on SS1 or SS2"
He might be even Champion of Crashing on SS1 or SS2....
Can't think of the name now, must be having a mental-block.

Few years back there was a TV documentary with crash/start ratio of top WRC drivers. The top duo Atkinson, Duval was way ahead of the rest :)

[Rallyper]

I think JML showed where he´s heading after sunday speed. No mystical stones - and he´s fastest. ;)

[Adler]

I think JML showed where he´s heading after sunday speed. No mystical stones - and he´s fastest. ;)

with almost similar starting position on saturday Petter was faster, although he had more to loose!

[RS]

Has Jari-Matti been to see a sports psychologist?

I partly blame Malcolm Wilson for this. It would have been far better to have the drivers on equal status, at least until one cannot win the championship mathematically. That would have taken the pressue off.

Are they still seriously going to ask Petter to move over if he happens to be ahead of Latvala, now that he was more than twice JM's points?

[Barreis]

Latvala is perfect third driver - no pressure at all.

[tfp]

Im not looking forward to argentina, jml already has had issues with stones once this year:-( please not again!!

[Rallyper]

The points in the standings is now better for JML instead of the first result.

[A.F.F.]

Yes, I don't think they were broken with sorrow at Ford camp.....

[RS]

Jari-Matti offered to be no.2, Wilson refused: Jari-Matti Latvala offered to relinquish Ford number one status after Portugal crash - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98580)

Instead, Wilson will "review the situation at the mid-season point"

I despair....

[bassist]

I think if they took the No 1 status off Jari and made him and Petter equal,the pressure that is causing these slip up`s would decrease. It`s good that they are standing by him, but I think he would relax if he and Petter were equal.Some people can`t handle this type of pressure.

[Rallyper]

I think it´s good what MW stated. Now it´s only to go on. Next rally around the corner. Let´s be patient.

[Tomi]

I think it´s good what MW stated. Now it´s only to go on. Next rally around the corner. Let´s be patient.

Agree, no point to put a guy as first driver who's only chance to win anything is if 2-3 cars from the front run in to problems.

[Barreis]

Finns are sick of patriothism. :D

[pino]

Finns are sick of patriothism. :D

Just like the British, French, Italians...etc.etc. ;)

[Adler]

Agree, no point to put a guy as first driver who's only chance to win anything is if 2-3 cars from the front run in to problems.
don´t agree,at least in portugal petter set faster stagetimes than Jari Matti on saturday, on sunday his startposition was worse....and if Seb makes no mistake, i doubt anybody can challenge him, maybe at a single stage but not for a whole rally (except on ice and snow).
But as allways: time will tell!

[EuroTroll]

don´t agree,at least in portugal petter set faster stagetimes than Jari Matti on saturday, on sunday his startposition was worse....

I think Latvala was just not in the mood on Saturday, after going off on Friday. Generally he is noticeably quicker than Solberg. There's just the little matter of keeping it on the road. :)

[EuroTroll]

Just like the British, French, Italians...etc.etc. ;)

But not Estonians, because we hate ourselves too much to be patriotic! :D

[A FONDO]

I think Latvala was just not in the mood on Saturday, after going off on Friday. Generally he is noticeably quicker than Solberg. There's just the little matter of keeping it on the road. :) I cant agree JM is "noticeably" quicker. Last year I had a similar argue with an estonian about Tanak v. Hanninen. Stunning stage times dont have any value if followed by a crash soon after that. The first one posts faster times only because he is driving over his limit while the other one is keeping just below it. On the short run (flatout) comparison they are quite equal so far. In PS and Fafe it is 2-1 for Petter while in qualify's it is 2-1 for JM.

[Tomi]

Generally he is noticeably quicker than Solberg. There's just the little matter of keeping it on the road. :)

Exactly, if you take a close look to all this years rallies sofar Solberg has not been faster anywhere and wont be in the rest either, that is called realism.

[Rallyper]

I cant agree JM is "noticeably" quicker. Last year I had a similar argue with an estonian about Tanak v. Hanninen. Stunning stage times dont have any value if followed by a crash soon after that. The first one posts faster times only because he is driving over his limit while the other one is keeping just below it. On the short run (flatout) comparison they are quite equal so far. In PS and Fafe it is 2-1 for Petter while in qualify's it is 2-1 for JM.

The discussion is meaningless. Who is faster than who? Let´s wait and see. Only the future is ahead. The past is history.

[EuroTroll]

The discussion is meaningless. Who is faster than who? Let´s wait and see. Only the future is ahead. The past is history.

The wise one has spoken! :vader:

:D

[Rallyper]

The wise one has spoken! :vader:

:D

:cool:

[MJW]

Any Finns able to confirm or deny if Jari Matti is to miss Argentina due to a broken collar bone? Injury sustained when skiing apparently.

[A.F.F.]

Any Finns able to confirm or deny if Jari Matti is to miss Argentina due to a broken collar bone? Injury sustained when skiing apparently.

Not yet any news.... when they claim this happened?

[rallyfiend]

Not yet any news.... when they claim this happened?

World Rally Championship - News - Injury forces Latvala out of Argentina (http://www.wrc.com/news/injury-forces-latvala-out-of-argentina/?fid=16502)

[Hartusvuori]

"Ei voi olla totta."

[Juha_Koo]

"Ei voi olla totta."

In all simplicity, excellent comment...

Very sad thing, I wonder how JM will find motivation to carry on as championship win is now impossible. Disastrous year for him, very sad.

[A.F.F.]

Un-f***king-beliveble!! :mark:

[N.O.T]

Wow... what a disater for ford and Latvala...

wish him a speedy recovery...the sport cannot afford to lose latvala right now.

[Miika]

"Miikka auta mua, mä en kestä."

[A.F.F.]

"Miikka auta mua, mä en kestä."

:laugh:

[A.F.F.]

Now finnish news sites woke up.....

What happened really? Was he crosscountry skiing? And if he was, how in the hell can one fall with crosscountryskis so that collarbone needs seven screws??? WTF?

[N.O.T]

seven screws ??? in a cross-country ski accident ?? Only Latvala could manage something like that !!!

Crazy

lets hope it does not interfere with his performance when he recovers...

[A.F.F.]

Apparently Latvala rolls and crashes hard whatever the sport he's taking part....... :mark:

[Juha_Koo]

What happened really? Was he crosscountry skiing? And if he was, how in the hell can one fall with crosscountryskis so that collarbone needs seven screws??? WTF?

Easily, think about some long downhill with a tight curve... I've had few bad crashes in those kind of places.

[A.F.F.]

Easily, think about some long downhill with a tight curve... I've had few bad crashes in those kind of places.

Maybe he forgot he was on a skitrack and waited Miikka's notes for the last second.....

[Miika]

Apparently Novikov had fallen right in front of JML in a fast downhill section and JML panicked himself into the trees. Or was that the script for something else, I´m confused with all these rolls.

[uranium]

Does contract allow drivers to take part in such injury risky actions??

[A.F.F.]

Does contract allow drivers to take part in such injury risky actions??

For normal people crosscountryskiing is NOT a risky action. It is recommenned for pensioners to keep fit !!!!

[dimviii]

Wish a fast recovery for Jari.

Wilson must be very happy now Petter is No1

[Mirek]

For normal people crosscountryskiing is NOT a risky action. It is recommenned for pensioners to keep fit !!!!

Normaly I do only downhill skiing but once I did also a mountain cross-country trip and I even managed to get down the ski slope with just one small crash :D It's a pity it happened but when You have bad luck You can even die from a bathroom accident...

[N.O.T]

Apparently Novikov had fallen right in front of JML in a fast downhill section and JML panicked himself into the trees. Or was that the script for something else, I´m confused with all these rolls.

or maybe a rock was digged out from the front runners...

Jokes apart this injury comes at a very bad moment for poor Latvala... his mental condition must not be the best...but on the other hand maybe it gives him time to relax a bit and relieve from he stress the retirements caused and maybe he returns stronger... we will see.

[uranium]

Conspiracy theory on
Maybe it is a trick to switch drivers ;)

Conspiracy theory off

[N.O.T]

The main thing is that now Loeb will win Argentina with hands in pockets if all go as planned... none can push Loeb as Latvala does.

[Miika]

Conspiracy theory on
Maybe M-Sport prepared his skiis as well, and instead of the usual skiwax they treated the skiis with a secret combination of super-glue and sand.

Conspiracy theory off

[Barreis]

The main thing is that now Loeb will win Argentina with hands in pockets if all go as planned... none can push Loeb as Latvala does.

In what universe?! It's not Sweden or Finland.

[A FONDO]

Ostberg has Argentina nominated for his WRT so he is off the deal.
I bet it will be between Tanak and Novikov, but who will take the vacant place in M-Sport WRT?
The old crook is probably dealing a tough auction with Henning, Kuipers and somebody else right now.

[RS]

Exactly, if you take a close look to all this years rallies sofar Solberg has not been faster anywhere and wont be in the rest either, that is called realism.

Championship is decided on points. I agree it is unlikely for Solberg but even Mikko nearly accidentally won the championship a couple of times.

Anyhow, maybe Latvala's skiing break will do him some good in the long run, get him away for one event and get his head in order.

So now who to replace him? Ostberg must be in pole-position for that seat.

[Mirek]

Ostberg has Argentina nominated for his WRT so he is off the deal

Adapta is nominated. A switch of drivers is possible so for example Henning can drive the Adapta car and Mads the M-Sport car.

[tmx]

It's a pity it happened but when You have bad luck You can even die from a bathroom accident...

There's Something About Mary, bathroom's zipper scene.

[A FONDO]

Exactly, if you take a close look to all this years rallies sofar Solberg has not been faster anywhere and wont be in the rest either, that is called realism.
He was faster in terms of speed in Fafe, Sweden PS and Mexico qualify.
He was faster in terms of higher finish position in Monaco, Mexico and Portugal, and season overall standings.

[MartijnS]

https://twitter.com/#!/voiceofrally/status/190811486493474816

[N.O.T]

He was faster in terms of speed in Fafe, Sweden PS and Mexico qualify.
He was faster in terms of higher finish position in Monaco, Mexico and Portugal, and season overall standings.

Be serious...

[A FONDO]

U tried to say something or what?

[TyPat107]

We actually had a gentleman die on our cross country trails a few years back.

Maybe this is the perfect time for young matty Wilson to step up and become fords #2...

[N.O.T]

U tried to say something or what?

yes i was trying to say that if someone is faster, on a FUN SHOW like Fafe, in a PS where the front runners don;t risk and a SHAKEDOWN, is faster overall is NONSENSE !!!

and by finishing higher at the end doesn't make you faster...

so be serious... because by manipulating statistics and useless facts i can prove that the green clown in sunglasses is a better driver than Loeb....

[A FONDO]

Since when crashing more often and collecting twice less points in the RALLY sport means you are FASTER?

PS and qualify are places where they both pushed to the max! On normal stages Petter is slower because he is smarter and doesnt drive over the limit all the time!

[N.O.T]

PS and Qualify are places you do not push to the max when you have good points...

smarter or not... he was slower

As speed is concerned Latvala, Loeb and Ogier are the top guys... The fact that he crashes a lot makes him a worse choice for a manufacturer...but to claim Solberg is faster than him is rubbish...a better choice for a manufacturer who chases the title yes, but faster NO WAY.

Solberg is a solid driver but slower than every manufacturer driver right now....

[Jajá]

yes i was trying to say that if someone is faster, on a FUN SHOW like Fafe, in a PS where the front runners don;t risk and a SHAKEDOWN, is faster overall is NONSENSE !!!

and by finishing higher at the end doesn't make you faster...

so be serious... because by manipulating statistics and useless facts i can prove that the green clown in sunglasses is a better driver than Loeb....

Hey, N.O.T, be a little nicer about my mate! ;)

[Viking]

solberg is a solid driver but slower than every manufacturer driver right now....


looooooooooooo oooooooooooooooool :d

[N.O.T]

looooooooooooo oooooooooooooooool :d

next time use caps lock... it is nicer.

[Langdale Forest]

Petter Solberg is a very good driver but he is very unlucky at times.

[Mirek]

Petter Solberg is a very good driver but he is very unlucky at times.

You can call it luck when it's from time to time. Solbergs so called bad luck comes from his too risky driving style.

[Viking]

next time use caps lock... it is nicer.

I will, I'm a slow learner...

[uranium]

I will, I'm a slow learner...
For that case there is special smile

:rotflmao:

:)

[Tom206wrc]

At least Latvala brought podium and points at home this week-end ;)

[Tom206wrc]

New rally new mistake for him :mark:
But he still can get some points in N-Z ;)

[Tom206wrc]

And Latvala again, out, in Sardigna today ??? :s

[GigiGalliNo1]

Young man....

[Mirek]

...who has done 115 WRC events...

[dimviii]

...who has done 115 WRC events...

Remember him from 2002 Acropolis with wrc car.

[Mintexmemory]

I'm beginning to wonder if JML needs a new co-driver. Mikka is a good guy but a different psychology is needed perhaps -look at the effect Giraudet had on Novikov, hardly ever crashes now.

[COD]

No co-driver can do anything to his fragile head

[stefanvv]

I'm beginning to wonder if JML needs a new co-driver. Mikka is a good guy but a different psychology is needed perhaps -look at the effect Giraudet had on Novikov, hardly ever crashes now.

There is some truth about that. I've seen Moya to jangle the "El Matador" himself for doing something stupid (all the tirade was in spanish, so I didn't understood anything, but I got the point :) ). The co-driver must be "The Boss".

[Juha_Koo]

I'm beginning to wonder if JML needs a new co-driver. Mikka is a good guy but a different psychology is needed perhaps -look at the effect Giraudet had on Novikov, hardly ever crashes now.

Who Finnish codriver could it be then, huh? We don't have any Giraudet's here, you know... The lack of professional codrivers to all young and talented drivers is bad already.

JM and Miikka have been together basically from the start of JM's career and honestly splitting them up would only do harm to JM. Miikka has put a real effort into the psychological side of things and (especially after Poland -09) is constantly reading JM for any weak signals - as he put it in one interview, "this sport and relatioship is actually all about reading weak-signals". Not only is he an excellent co-driver, but has educated himself well and is a competent car engineer (MSc). I've honestly never understood these ideas to change JM's codriver - I see Anttila as a perfect codriver to him.

[Miika]

I guess hitting obstacles is part of who JML is but I still want to believe that new team and enviroment will enhance his mindset, even just a bit. Plus driving a winner car usually makes wonders for a driver.

[Mintexmemory]

Who Finnish codriver could it be then, huh? We don't have any Giraudet's here, you know... The lack of professional codrivers to all young and talented drivers is bad already.

JM and Miikka have been together basically from the start of JM's career and honestly splitting them up would only do harm to JM. Miikka has put a real effort into the psychological side of things and (especially after Poland -09) is constantly reading JM for any weak signals - as he put it in one interview, "this sport and relatioship is actually all about reading weak-signals". Not only is he an excellent co-driver, but has educated himself well and is a competent car engineer (MSc). I've honestly never understood these ideas to change JM's codriver - I see Anttila as a perfect codriver to him.
Thanks for that explanation, I'd never seen any of that reported in English media. I think JM could still benefit from a proper sports psychologist. There is no doubt that he is a brilliant driver when in the zone, it just doesn't stay consistently enough.

[Juha_Koo]

Thanks for that explanation, I'd never seen any of that reported in English media. I think JM could still benefit from a proper sports psychologist. There is no doubt that he is a brilliant driver when in the zone, it just doesn't stay consistently enough.

Yeah.

JML has used (I don't know how it's nowdays) the same mental trainer who helped Grönholm.

[COD]

Yeah.

JML has used (I don't know how it's nowdays) the same mental trainer who helped Grönholm.

Some cases are just hopeless...

[stefanvv]

I guess hitting obstacles is part of who JML is but I still want to believe that new team and enviroment will enhance his mindset, even just a bit. Plus driving a winner car usually makes wonders for a driver.

No one can deny it, Citroen has been the better car for years. Lets see 2013 what will bring...

[kober]

Lets see 2013 what will bring...Any other result than Hirvonen's and Citroen's titles will be a surprise.

[Tom206wrc]

Cloth to a disaster start with VW, for JML... :s

[RAS007]

Has there been any other driver whose career has followed the same arc as Jari Matti's? On his day, no-one is faster, except maybe Ogier, but this has become a pattern of behaviour. I am convinced it is all in his head, but question if he is ever going to beat it, and reach his full potential.

[A FONDO]

I think his full potential was second half of 2011. Arc shape - well described [attachment=1:35ouvca8]icon14.png[/attachment:35ouvca8]

[Sulland]

VW, please get a mental trainer onboard your team. Jari Matti really need one now!

[stefanvv]

This thread should be renamed "Rocks vs JML", or the opposite

[A.F.F.]

I think Latvala has AGAIN made driving too compicated to himself. He knew Ogier had an upperhand testingwise and he proved that performing very well at Monte and then superbly at Sweden. Latvala however wasn't one with the car like with Fiesta and pressed a panicbutton ... very much like Solberg used to do, and started to change the setup in the middle of the rally. He got even more confused and tried to catch the gap by taking risks which didn't pay off. I'm not sure if it was a delusion that VW didn't expect podiums from Latvala in the first rallies or not. But Latvala has noticed how fast VW can be by the hands of Ogier. And now he tries to par that.... He should definately calm down, take it easy in the next rally, learn the car, build a suitable setup for his driving style and then drive fast. Now he is not only destroying cars, he is destroying his career as well :mark:

[Barreis]

Yeah, this time it was on third stage...

[Rallyper]

I think Latvala has AGAIN made driving too compicated to himself. He knew Ogier had an upperhand testingwise and he proved that performing very well at Monte and then superbly at Sweden. Latvala however wasn't one with the car like with Fiesta and pressed a panicbutton ... very much like Solberg used to do, and started to change the setup in the middle of the rally. He got even more confused and tried to catch the gap by taking risks which didn't pay off. I'm not sure if it was a delusion that VW didn't expect podiums from Latvala in the first rallies or not. But Latvala has noticed how fast VW can be by the hands of Ogier. And now he tries to par that.... He should definately calm down, take it easy in the next rally, learn the car, build a suitable setup for his driving style and then drive fast. Now he is not only destroying cars, he is destroying his career as well :mark:

Well, I´m not sure, but how could you say he didn´t calm this time? He could very well have been on "safe" mode this time. And then unluck strikes him. That could be the most possible outcome of this rally for him. For sure he´d still need a shrink, even more after this rally, but he sounded very sure it wasn´t completely his fault this time.

[stefanvv]

Look at the video, I don't think is his fault

[A.F.F.]

Well, I´m not sure, but how could you say he didn´t calm this time? He could very well have been on "safe" mode this time. And then unluck strikes him. That could be the most possible outcome of this rally for him. For sure he´d still need a shrink, even more after this rally, but he sounded very sure it wasn´t completely his fault this time.

I am not sure, he may have been calm as Kankkunen but somehow he finds all the rocks others are able to avoid.

[Sprocket]

I am not sure, he may have been calm as Kankkunen but somehow he finds all the rocks others are able to avoid.

They avoided it, because it was not there for other drivers. He was on the line and hit a rock he saw late due to dust that had been pulled on the road by another driver. The question might be is the wishbone weak on the VW? The video shows him on line and small bump, next thing he is off the road with no steering.

[Barreis]

And every time is on his way...

[Rallyper]

And every time is on his way...

I wonder why...?

[Barreis]

If it was someone else he would be dismissed from regular works seat long time ago.

[Sprocket]

And every time is on his way...

Not arguing JML has issues, just really think this time it might not have been avoidable or his fault. That doesn't change past problems, or fact for a while he seemed to improve, particularly on tarmac, then go backwards again. It is early in new team but with Monte crash it does seem his 'bad luck' or whatever it is comes back.

[bluuford]

Jari rocks!

[tfp]

I cant help thinking MW will be secretly happy that he doesn't have JML's crashes to worry about anymore....What a dissapointment.

[[WRCRR]]

I think the main worry for JML this is season is not going to be the accidents...but the simple fact that he can't get comfortable in the Polo. It was already clear to see in Sweden, I mean come on guys - it is his favorite event and he was nowhere speed wise.

He has even admitted to the press that he has problems adapting the car to his driving style. And as you probably remember, he had the same kind of problems all the time at Ford. Sometimes JML reminds me of other similar driver - Didier Auriol. On his best day when everything was working to his favor he was amazingly fast, but if he was even slightly unhappy with the setup of the car he was nowhere. And to some cars he adapted better than to some others.

It took some years before JML could become truly fast in the Ford (if still woefully unreliable), I don't think VW will be as patient with him - especially as they have Mikkelsen waiting in the wings...