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pino
27th November 2007, 11:39
OK Guys here's the place where you can talk/discuss/whatever...about Michael. Please do it nicely...thank you :)

Mark
27th November 2007, 11:40
He won lots of times.

SGWilko
27th November 2007, 11:43
He won lots of times.

Dang, that boy was good at the moonwalk....

Errmmm, have I got the correct Michael? ;)

pino
27th November 2007, 11:43
He won lots of times.

Indeed that's why he's one if not the greatest of all ;)

ArrowsFA1
27th November 2007, 11:48
He won lots of times.
How to sum up a career in 5 short words :p

In the context of H&N I wonder how Michael and his achievements will be viewed in years to come. In the case of other greats like Fangio and Clark (just two examples!) we have decades of hindsight, and perhaps rose-tinted spectacles, to help us view their careers. We don't yet have that for MS and I wonder if his reputation suffers because of it.

passmeatissue
27th November 2007, 12:28
It was amazing in Felipe's cart race, how clearly you could see his quality. Because on the small track with the small carts, and a higher viewpoint, the camera could follow MS and the cart in front or behind, as a pair.

Time and again he would overtake someone, they would cling on close behind him for two or three corners, then they would lose a metre in a corner, then another one, then a lap later they would be history. He did this to Piquet, Fillipi, everyone. And he would have won or been second in Race2 as well, if he hadn't been baulked badly twice by backmarkers - when we saw him arm waving and glaring at them, the competitive spirit still there even in a charity event.

leopard
27th November 2007, 12:37
Indeed that's why he's one if not the greatest of all ;) He's the greatest of his era. :)

THE_LIBERATOR
27th November 2007, 13:19
Cheat.

ioan
27th November 2007, 13:58
For now he's still active in F1 so I'll stick to the other forum! :p :

markabilly
27th November 2007, 14:26
Who?

Garry Walker
27th November 2007, 19:51
Best ever racer, by far. More complete than anyone else, faster than anyone else, more dedicated than anyone else.

jso1985
27th November 2007, 20:19
clearly among the greatest drivers of F1, got way more help than needed when in Ferrari IMO

Mark
28th November 2007, 08:58
Best ever racer, by far. More complete than anyone else, faster than anyone else, more dedicated than anyone else.

You are, of course, correct. I think it's the fact that it did it all in a very workman like way without what some would consider 'style' that has lead to some not liking him. Plus it's a certainty that if you are that sucessful for so long that people will get bored.

Personally the first season I followed F1 was late 1994 when I was supporting Damon Hill against Schumacher, as we all know that ended badly :p

wmcot
28th November 2007, 09:13
He was unique because he was far more than just a great driver - he formed an entire team around himself! Nobody else has ever done that.

leopard
28th November 2007, 09:35
He was unique because he was far more than just a great driver - he formed an entire team around himself! Nobody else has ever done that.
Else, not much team would be so kind to put their trust on the driver managing the whole team like Schumi has. It's quite a strong reason he had such great loyalties as the team control was under his hand.

ArrowsFA1
28th November 2007, 09:43
He was unique because he was far more than just a great driver - he formed an entire team around himself! Nobody else has ever done that.
From 1974-77 Ferrari was built around Niki Lauda, and the combination won 2 WDCs and three WCCs in that time. Luca di Montezemolo was a key player in that team then too.

The Tyrrell team was built around Jackie Stewart, and although they ran a number of different chassis (Matra, March & Tyrrell) the combination won 3 WDCs and two WCCs between 1968-73

Lotus became Jim Clark's team between 1960-68 and they won two WDCs and 2 WCCs in his time.

What Ferrari and Michael Schumacher achieved was remarkable, no question about that, but he was not unique in F1 in having a team built around him. Lauda's achievements at Ferrari were comparable with MS's in that he lifted the team from a distant 6th in the WCC to champions within 2 years.

SGWilko
28th November 2007, 10:19
I bet he played with Lego & Mecchano when he was a nipper....

He is one of those rare souls that is not only naturally gifted at driving, he also has a very good technical grasp of what is required to make a car go fast. A bit like Prost, but Prost was SO good, he looked like he was going slow when he was whipping everyones hides!

Schumi also had that win at all costs competetive streaks, that meant he did some strange stuff that he thought was acceptable, but was probably a bit OTT.

Great nonetheless though, I will give him that.

passmeatissue
28th November 2007, 10:44
You are, of course, correct. I think it's the fact that it did it all in a very workman like way without what some would consider 'style' that has lead to some not liking him. Plus it's a certainty that if you are that sucessful for so long that people will get bored.

Personally the first season I followed F1 was late 1994 when I was supporting Damon Hill against Schumacher, as we all know that ended badly :p

For me the only reason I see him as "less great than his results", if you see what I mean, is that he was tricky. I would have thought more of him if he had only won 5,4, or even 3 championships and not had those awful unsporting moments. It's something I still find hard to reconcile, because he clearly is in many other ways a great human being, as well as a great driver.

He always avoided a fast teammate, a la Fernando (but with more success...), I wonder if he is more insecure than you would think. And suppose, say, his background had been different, say Graham Hill as his father? Would he have been the complete sporting gentleman?

AAReagles
28th November 2007, 20:17
How to sum up a career in 5 short words :p

World Champion with an asterisk.

Much like american baseball 'hero' Barry Bonds. The man who not only broke a record, but now has a record as well, as far as most fans and the grand jury are concerned.

29th November 2007, 17:41
I would really like to see him race Lewis Hamilton to see which of them is the best but I think he should stay out of F1 he raced for 17 years and was simply one of the best f1 drivers that's ever been.

petrolhead ben
29th November 2007, 18:10
I would really like to see him race Lewis Hamilton to see which of them is the best but I think he should stay out of F1 he raced for 17 years and was simply one of the best f1 drivers that's ever been.

Absolutley, that would be brilliant because we all know how good lewis is as well. But not just that, we have seen this year how good a overtaker lewis is. I mean just think of some the moves he's pulled of on people. For example there was the one on kimi at monza, barrichello at brazil and others which i've probably forgotten.

As good as shumi was he was on the recieving end of some stunning overtaking moves throughout his career, like hakkinen at spa 2000 and montoya in brazil 2001. I just wonder if lewis could get away with some of his outstanding moves on shumi?

Garry Walker
29th November 2007, 19:08
Absolutley, that would be brilliant because we all know how good lewis is as well. But not just that, we have seen this year how good a overtaker lewis is. I mean just think of some the moves he's pulled of on people. For example there was the one on kimi at monza, barrichello at brazil and others which i've probably forgotten.

As good as shumi was he was on the recieving end of some stunning overtaking moves throughout his career, like hakkinen at spa 2000 and montoya in brazil 2001. I just wonder if lewis could get away with some of his outstanding moves on shumi?

Probably no. One day other drivers will close the door on his moves and they will end up with crashes

Valve Bounce
29th November 2007, 23:23
Why don't e start a rumour that SchM is returning to F1? :http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41362
..............and is heading to Honda?

That should liven up this forum for a couple of days. :p :

Tazio
30th November 2007, 18:51
World Champion with an asterisk.

Much like american baseball 'hero' Barry Bonds. The man who not only broke a record, but now has a record as well, as far as most fans and the grand jury are concerned.
What?--- Bonds "IS" facing a grand jury! Mike never lied about any of his adventures into overaggressive driving.
As a guy who played baseball I will tell you it was the last pure sport we Americans had.
(The DH rule ended that. But don't get me started) If you want to make a baseball comparison, compare home to Ty Cobb.
The dirtiest most disliked superstar in the history of the sport.
His numbers (with the exception of home runs) make Barry's look puny!
There is no asterisk next to his name in the hall of fame!
That was a poorly cloaked attempt to bash Mike.
I've got your asterisk hangin'!

Sirius
30th November 2007, 19:47
As good as shumi was he was on the recieving end of some stunning overtaking moves throughout his career, like hakkinen at spa 2000 and montoya in brazil 2001. I just wonder if lewis could get away with some of his outstanding moves on shumi?

All drivers have been, to some extent, on the receiving end of some incredible passes by other drivers. It is the supremely confident and capable drivers who usually execute moves that remain with us for many years to come. I think the drivers who have raced against Michael, both past and present, felt as though they had something to prove to him. There is no question that Michael has had some drivers execute brilliant passes on him, but on the other hand, sometimes you have to make such moves on a driver of his calibre.

There have been many great moves on Michael aside from the two you mention, and for me, Fernando's move around Michael at the 130R at Suzuka a few years ago was simply awesome. As for Lewis, there is no doubt in my mind that he would be able to get by Michael if the opportunity presented itself or if he absolutely needed to get by for any reason.

Sirius

ioan
30th November 2007, 19:56
Why don't e start a rumour that SchM is returning to F1? :http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=41362
..............and is heading to Honda?

That should liven up this forum for a couple of days. :p :

Some Button fans might lose sleep over that! :D

Sirius
30th November 2007, 20:02
Why don't we start a rumour that SchM is returning to F1? :p :

F1 is doing fine without him.

Sirius

Trqster
30th November 2007, 20:08
He was, is and probably will always be a specially gifted driver - one is few generations kind of special, just like Senna and few others...

Next week (at testing) he'll prove that fact once again. :)

petrolhead ben
30th November 2007, 20:36
All drivers have been, to some extent, on the receiving end of some incredible passes by other drivers. It is the supremely confident and capable drivers who usually execute moves that remain with us for many years to come. I think the drivers who have raced against Michael, both past and present, felt as though they had something to prove to him. There is no question that Michael has had some drivers execute brilliant passes on him, but on the other hand, sometimes you have to make such moves on a driver of his calibre.

There have been many great moves on Michael aside from the two you mention, and for me, Fernando's move around Michael at the 130R at Suzuka a few years ago was simply awesome. As for Lewis, there is no doubt in my mind that he would be able to get by Michael if the opportunity presented itself or if he absolutely needed to get by for any reason.

Sirius


Great post well done. I totally agree with you about alonso's move at 130R is was gutsy, brave and brilliant to watch. Montoya passing him around the outside at bus stop chicane at spa 2004 also springs to mind, although michael was struggling with cold tyre pressures at the time. Back then if you remember the bridgestone tyres used to take a while to get up to temperature after the safety car periods.

waitey
1st December 2007, 13:11
clearly the BEST driver of all time. Literally, it amazes me how much on some of these boards how much he is actually underrated. He is said to be one of the best drivers ever, or in the bracket of the best drivers ever. Far out, the guy has so many race wins compared to 2nd place in number of wins its ridiculous. He has absolutely dominated, could have won more championships. Far out, give others respect too, and label them as one of the best drivers ever, but schumacher, on fact, on success, on record, whatever you want to call it, is the best driver ever. Absolutely dominated.

aryan
1st December 2007, 13:42
One of the fastest drivers of all time, no mistaking that. I admit that I was surprised to find that he still had it in him after being a year away from the sport. JV lost heaps of credibility IMO there an then (referring to his awful come-back to Renault)

There are however many question marks over some of his moves, and his first two WDCs... but maybe that's what you get with these ultra racers, maybe being so fast and wanting to win at all costs go hand in hand.

leopard
3rd December 2007, 04:25
Schumi was a clever driver and driving in the right time at the right place, controlling all strategy and decision of the team was what's benefited him for all what he has achieved.

I can't measure his talent up that high against current drivers. He's twice beaten by Alonso while Alonso had to buckle down throughout the season against Hamilton.

In 2005 I couldn't see him significantly better than Ruben. Once Ruben looked to perform approaching him and could possibly exceed him, Ferrari called Massa for replacing Ruben.

Schumi was great, at least he had capability to maximize power of the team and conditioning the whole team in order to support him (cheater is not a proper word to name someone).

Imo :)

Ranger
3rd December 2007, 08:38
clearly the BEST driver of all time. Literally, it amazes me how much on some of these boards how much he is actually underrated. He is said to be one of the best drivers ever, or in the bracket of the best drivers ever.
Best driver in recent times I'd say so. He is said to be one of the best because you can't compare him with Fangio and Clark who came long before him, even with Senna its a contentious call because their eras barely crossed over.

Far out, the guy has so many race wins compared to 2nd place in number of wins its ridiculous. He has absolutely dominated, could have won more championships. Far out, give others respect too, and label them as one of the best drivers ever, but schumacher, on fact, on success, on record, whatever you want to call it, is the best driver ever. Absolutely dominated.
- Fangio won 5 titles from 7 years of Grand Prix, his last at age 46. 24 wins and 29 poles from only 51 starts.
- Jim Clark started 72 races with 33 poles and 25 wins. He finished second only ONCE, following a mechanical issue.

It is things like these that make people "only" accept Schumacher as "one of the greatest", and for good reason. :up:

Not that it should or will belittle his acheivements or legacy at all. That is also for good reason. :up:

AAReagles
3rd December 2007, 21:40
That was a poorly cloaked attempt to bash Mike.
I've got your asterisk hangin'!

Uh oh, looks like 'roid rage. Say, you're not facing a grand jury yourself anytime soon are ya ? Sorry, bad joke.

I just thought it was funny that Bonds was so upset with all the controversy of fans/media branding him with an * that he was willing to lie under testimony, possibly setting himself up for another record. That reference I made about his (soon to be criminal) 'record' was just a play on words since he's been regarded as the king of HRs by those (mostly SF fans) who refuse to accept the fact that he used steroids.

And yeah, just like Bonds*, Michael Schumacher* is another guy who records were great. However his method of accomplishments will always be in question. Which is why, just like there will be those who support him, you'll always have fans like me who will not bow in reverence to his name being mentioned in the annals of Grand Prix racing.

SGWilko
3rd December 2007, 22:14
Probably no. One day other drivers will close the door on his moves and they will end up with crashes

And so we return a series where you don't dare overtake, or take a risk.

These guys are sportsmen, in a sport. If there is a gap go for it, and you should be able to trust that your rivals are sporting enough to keep this a non contact sport.

SGWilko
3rd December 2007, 22:17
Some Button fans might lose sleep over that! :D

I'm more of a toggle man myself Ioan....... :D ;)

I am not too bovvered, as Bananaman (RB) has gone on record that he is happy with his drivers at the moment........

Roamy
4th December 2007, 07:01
/god I hope the germans sign this POS then we can finally cleanse Ferrari

pino
4th December 2007, 07:51
/god I hope the germans sign this POS then we can finally cleanse Ferrari

He has a 3 years contract with Ferrari so nobody else can sign him...sorry :p :

D-Type
4th December 2007, 21:57
I think it is too early to judge Schumacher's career. It is only a year since he retired and we are not really in a position to evaluate those he beat as some are still racing.

Certainly in time he will be ranked with the greats alongside Chiron, Caracciola, Nuvolari, Varzi, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost and Senna, and maybe Piquet.

But, and it is a big but, I think that his sometimes questionable on-track behaviour will always stand against him. Remember he is the only driver to have been disqualified from the World Championship. That is what the FIA action in 1997 amounts to.

Tazio
4th December 2007, 22:54
Uh oh, looks like 'roid rage. Say, you're not facing a grand jury yourself anytime soon are ya ? Sorry, bad joke.

I just thought it was funny that Bonds was so upset with all the controversy of fans/media branding him with an * that he was willing to lie under testimony, possibly setting himself up for another record. That reference I made about his (soon to be criminal) 'record' was just a play on words since he's been regarded as the king of HRs by those (mostly SF fans) who refuse to accept the fact that he used steroids.

And yeah, just like Bonds*, Michael Schumacher* is another guy who records were great. However his method of accomplishments will always be in question. Which is why, just like there will be those who support him, you'll always have fans like me who will not bow in reverence to his name being mentioned in the annals of Grand Prix racing.And I'm disagreeing! Get it?
It is a very poor comparison! Mike is not and has not been indicted by any government court! Google the words Ty Cobb! Learn something! Dirty player no asterisk.
Get back to me. Then admit you made an erroneous comparison.
I'm out of hear chief!

wmcot
5th December 2007, 07:54
I think it is too early to judge Schumacher's career. It is only a year since he retired and we are not really in a position to evaluate those he beat as some are still racing.

Certainly in time he will be ranked with the greats alongside Chiron, Caracciola, Nuvolari, Varzi, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost and Senna, and maybe Piquet.

But, and it is a big but, I think that his sometimes questionable on-track behaviour will always stand against him. Remember he is the only driver to have been disqualified from the World Championship. That is what the FIA action in 1997 amounts to.

If you're going to add an asterisk behind his name due to his on track behavior, you better add one to Senna's name, too. Just ask Prost! :)

MS was DQ'd in 1997, but most everyone agrees that Senna should have been DQ's in 1990!

ioan
5th December 2007, 10:32
I think it is too early to judge Schumacher's career. It is only a year since he retired and we are not really in a position to evaluate those he beat as some are still racing.

Certainly in time he will be ranked with the greats alongside Chiron, Caracciola, Nuvolari, Varzi, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost and Senna, and maybe Piquet.

But, and it is a big but, I think that his sometimes questionable on-track behaviour will always stand against him. Remember he is the only driver to have been disqualified from the World Championship. That is what the FIA action in 1997 amounts to.

His exceptional achievements on track outweigh the negatives of his career.

Sometimes I wonder why AP and AS weren't disqualified for doing the same thing MS did? Because they won the title as a consequence of their "questionable" acts!

And no one talks aout how Senna and Prost unfairly won WDC titles!
So in the end will be only the statistics, and guess who is at the top of the list?! :D

And all the bashers will have is the sour taste in their mouth! :p :

SGWilko
5th December 2007, 14:01
His exceptional achievements on track outweigh the negatives of his career.


Two wrongs don't make a right. You should have phrased that as....

Despite the negatives in his career, he had some exceptional achievments.

Nothing can justify (admittedly on the spur of the moment panic response) deliberately trying to or managing to barge someone off the track.

Ayrton was from the same mould, and should not have been a 3 time WDC - IMO.

Prost, what did he ever do wrong? Oh yes, he called his prancing horse a truck, and they showed him the door.....

ioan
5th December 2007, 23:03
Two wrongs don't make a right.

What two wrongs are you talking there?



Nothing can justify (admittedly on the spur of the moment panic response) deliberately trying to or managing to barge someone off the track.

Why do you think that was "on the spur of the moment panic"???

BTW I'm yet to see the whiter than white multiple F1 WDC.

Rollo
5th December 2007, 23:36
Nothing can justify (admittedly on the spur of the moment panic response) deliberately trying to or managing to barge someone off the track.

Hear hear :up: Both Schumacher and Senna were guilty of same.

I concur, it's simply reprehensible and on both occasions I would have shredded their licences and given them a two year driving ban for culpable driving with intent to menace. Schumacher and Senna are both cut of the same cloth - win at all costs including underhandedness and ignobleness.

Having said this, Schumacher's skill was probably the fourth greatest of all time and the only driver to have had a full F1 career played out to determine this.

SGWilko
6th December 2007, 08:33
What two wrongs are you talking there?
:laugh:



Why do you think that was "on the spur of the moment panic"???
that's why I said it, tsk.


BTW I'm yet to see the whiter than white multiple F1 WDC.fangio springs to mind. But I am glad you realise your man does not belong in this dept....

F1boat
6th December 2007, 15:25
Best ever racer, by far. More complete than anyone else, faster than anyone else, more dedicated than anyone else.

Nothing to add.

SGWilko
6th December 2007, 16:54
Having said this, Schumacher's skill was probably the fourth greatest of all time and the only driver to have had a full F1 career played out to determine this.

Which makes his behaviour all the more irrational, and his motives more sinister, as he did not need to use such underhand tactics, given he was THAT naturally talented.

D-Type
6th December 2007, 17:19
~ BTW I'm yet to see the whiter than white multiple F1 WDC. Are you talking post-1982 or post-1950?

wedge
6th December 2007, 17:24
Which makes his behaviour all the more irrational, and his motives more sinister, as he did not need to use such underhand tactics, given he was THAT naturally talented.

A huge ego, true racer characteristic, sore losers when the having the ability to control his fate when the title slipping away ie. crashing into your opponent.

Since the Jones/Reutimann, Villeneuve/Pironi debacle its everyman for himself. Farewell to the gentleman racer/champion

SGWilko
6th December 2007, 17:50
A huge ego, true racer characteristic, sore losers when the having the ability to control his fate when the title slipping away ie. crashing into your opponent.

Since the Jones/Reutimann, Villeneuve/Pironi debacle its everyman for himself. Farewell to the gentleman racer/champion

And that adds fuel to the post Ioan put up on a different thread that it is all about money. Look at the Moss Fangio era, when they true gentlemen, gave their cars up for their team mates. What were the drivers paid then?

There was also no true sponsorship then either........

What Pironi did to Villeneuve was the start of it all. Gilles was probably the last of the gentlemen (maybe Prost, and Patrese, even Hill at a push). It's now become just a business that has a miniscule sporting element on a few Sundays throughout the year......

ArrowsFA1
12th December 2007, 09:26
Look at the Moss Fangio era, when they true gentlemen, gave their cars up for their team mates. What were the drivers paid then?
Doug Nye's column in a recent issue of Motor Sport had comments from Tony Brooks about this. IIRC he won something like £650.00 for winning the 1958 Italian GP at a time when the average weekly wage was around £14.00 (not sure if I've remembered that right!!).

keysersoze
13th December 2007, 14:09
Schumacher

1) Supremely fit
2) Supremely dedicated, in an era when it truly mattered
3) Supremely prepared: Prost very formidable here
4) Supremely ruthless: Senna formidable here

5) Supremely quick? no, not really; there's little to separate the very best drivers--Fangio, Clark, Senna--but the other factors above make him the best.

He also seemed to enjoy his wins more than any other GP driver, and he also seemed to care about his crew more than any other driver. Of course, I have the benefit of TV to make this sort of judgment.

ShiftingGears
14th December 2007, 12:02
To be honest Raikkonen strikes me as one of those gentleman drivers who are impossibly tough on track, and yet are completely fair and apolitical. I'm glad he's World Champion.

AAReagles
26th December 2007, 20:51
And I'm disagreeing! Get it?... Mike is not and has not been indicted by any government court!
I'm afraid you didn't get it. My play on words about Bonds' "records" was reflected on him, that and the fact that the majority of fans feel that he is entitled to an asterisk.

Might I suggest you go over what I first posted and... try not to take it out of context.

No erroneous comparison was made; they are both modern day sports icons with questionable conduct while accomplishing their goals.





Google the words Ty Cobb! Learn something! Dirty player no asterisk... Then admit you made an erroneous comparison.

Why should I bother doing that research? I'll "admit" that I don't follow baseball, because quite simply I don't care for it. Besides Ty Cobb didn't sell/advise Barry Bonds to take steroids. Bonds made his own decisions.

Any ways I wouldn't sweat it, Bonds has plenty of company with him since the Mitchel Report came out. And yes, I'll "admit", just like everyone else, I'm tired of hearing about it (steroids in baseball... Olympics... Tour de France... etc.) on the news.






Hear hear Both Schumacher and Senna were guilty of same.

I concur, it's simply reprehensible and on both occasions I would have shredded their licences and given them a two year driving ban for culpable driving with intent to menace. Schumacher and Senna are both cut of the same cloth - win at all costs including underhandedness and ignobleness.

My thoughts exactly.

I wasn't much of a supporter for Senna from there on (after 1990). I could see if this sort of thing occured once, but when it becomes a habit, then it's time to reevaluate what type of driving style that is being displayed.

After all most fans are there (whether on TV or at the event itself) to watch a race, not some deliberate smash-up derby.

Tazio
27th December 2007, 00:08
I'm afraid you didn't get it. My play on words about Bonds' "records" was reflected on him, that and the fact that the majority of fans feel that he is entitled to an asterisk.

Might I suggest you go over what I first posted and... try not to take it out of context.

No erroneous comparison was made; they are both modern day sports icons with questionable conduct while accomplishing their goals.






Why should I bother doing that research? I'll "admit" that I don't follow baseball, because quite simply I don't care for it. Besides Ty Cobb didn't sell/advise Barry Bonds to take steroids. Bonds made his own decisions.

Any ways I wouldn't sweat it, Bonds has plenty of company with him since the Mitchel Report came out. And yes, I'll "admit", just like everyone else, I'm tired of hearing about it (steroids in baseball... Olympics... Tour de France... etc.) on the news.
Too late, you brought this absurd comparison to the forum!
The Crux of Bonds transgressions are two fold
1: Using performance enhancing drugs!
2: Lying about it during a Grand Jury investigation!

I just don't see how you can compare these two.
Do you have evidence that Mike used performance enhancing drugs?
Was he sneaking octane booster into his Shell?
Your comparison is weak at best. I'm saying it is completely obtuse.
The difference between you and me is this.
Besides knowing what is happening in f1, I know Baseball.
I know that Ty Cobb use to sharpen his cleats with a file.
He always slid high, lacerated a few second basemen, and was generally distained because of it.

His stolen base record stood for over fifty years. No asterisk next to any of his career accomplishments, Though you claim not care. It is a much more relevant comparison if you (and you did) want to make a baseball comparison. Here's the real difference. People remember the great things Cobb acomplised. In fact he revolutionized the game. Are you starting to see the propreity of my comparison?

I know an irrelevant, obtuse, and erroneous, comparison when I see one!
Now to use metaphorically an expression from another American Sport.

I suggest you to drop back ten, and punt!!

airshifter
27th December 2007, 00:48
I suggest you to drop back ten, and punt!!

A casual observer might suggest you lower your coffee intake, or whatever else it is making you think someone else isn't entitled to an opinion unless it is the same as yours. ;)

Tazio
27th December 2007, 01:15
A casual observer might suggest you lower your coffee intake, or whatever else it is making you think someone else isn't entitled to an opinion unless it is the same as yours. ;)
I just thought I was being emphatic. The reality is no one knows how posterity will view Michael. I personally believe 25 years from now his transgressions will be mostly forgotten, and he will be remembered for his Herculean acomplishments!

ioan
27th December 2007, 01:35
A casual observer might suggest you lower your coffee intake, or whatever else it is making you think someone else isn't entitled to an opinion unless it is the same as yours. ;)

Ofcourse everyone is entitled to their opinion, and saying that someone's opinion is based on flawed thinking is also an opinion, an opinion that doesn't take away the right to opinion of anyone else, it merely points it out that it's wrong.

markabilly
27th December 2007, 03:56
Hear hear :up: Both Schumacher and Senna were guilty of same.

I concur, it's simply reprehensible and on both occasions I would have shredded their licences and given them a two year driving ban for culpable driving with intent to menace. Schumacher and Senna are both cut of the same cloth - win at all costs including underhandedness and ignobleness.

Having said this, Schumacher's skill was probably the fourth greatest of all time and the only driver to have had a full F1 career played out to determine this.
But when Senna did it, the punts were far more spectacular :eek:

And all the whining is over with the JV bump, well excuse me, but that penalty demonstrates all the whining about mac v. Ferrari is nonsense.

Further, after watching time and time again, MS is clearly committed, at max speed towards the apex of the corner, with no room to spare.
In that split microsecond, the evidence does justify concluding that he did what he thought necessary to stay on track, though it did him no good.

The earlier bump with Hill and Senna's bumps along with Prost, were all clearly far more premeditated. Yet, the one that I thought to be by far the less flagarent, was the one that lost an entire season of points.

Whatever

BDunnell
27th December 2007, 18:28
Which makes his behaviour all the more irrational, and his motives more sinister, as he did not need to use such underhand tactics, given he was THAT naturally talented.

As the old cliche goes, nobody is perfect. People who are already rich are sometimes driven to steal to become even richer, and this is equally as odd. Our brains and psyches work in mysterious ways, and sometimes we all do things that go against good sense. Michael Schumacher is no different.

AAReagles
28th December 2007, 20:48
Too late, you brought this absurd comparison to the forum!...

I know an irrelevant, obtuse, and erroneous, comparison when I see one!

It's become obvious that you are unwilling to comprehend what I mentioned. Not to mention that your vain attempts to vindicate controversial conduct are becoming rather boring.

So until you can provide some sort of reasonable debate, I'll just dismiss your raging rhetorics after I read them, and will continue to do so until you manage to provide something substantial to respond to.






Now then, about this topic of Senna/Schumacher:

There's no denying the WCs, races, poles, and records both men set during their respective eras. Both were fast and exciting to watch, until... well enough has been said about those incidents (Japan, Australia & Jerez) already.

As opinions go, I suppose that some this debate may hinge on the fact that some of us here can remember a time when conduct detrimental to sports was not so abundant as it has become in recent times. With regard to GP racing, I was hoping that Senna's episodes of destruction were that last of that kind. Unfortunately it wasn't.

Which is why I have no high regard for either AS or MS, with exception from their charitable contributions (respectively; homeless children in Brazil & Katrina).


It certainly takes tremendous talent and commitment to compete in the pinacle of racing. However, while demonstrating those traits required for that arena, there are also fundamental responsibilities of a GP driver that should be observed and maintained for the welfare and integrity of the sport.

Garry Walker
29th December 2007, 10:54
As the old cliche goes, nobody is perfect. People who are already rich are sometimes driven to steal to become even richer, and this is equally as odd. Our brains and psyches work in mysterious ways, and sometimes we all do things that go against good sense. Michael Schumacher is no different.
Michael Schumacher did in his career what every successful businessman, lawyers etc is doing.
Some people are programmed and driven to succeed and will do their best to achieve their goals. Others will work at Asda and sell groceries.

SGWilko
29th December 2007, 15:03
Others will work at Asda and sell groceries.

Through necessity, as opposed to choice.

Tazio
29th December 2007, 19:05
It's become obvious that you are unwilling to comprehend what I mentioned. Not to mention that your vain attempts to vindicate controversial conduct are becoming rather boring.

So until you can provide some sort of reasonable debate, I'll just dismiss your raging rhetorics after I read them, and will continue to do so until you manage to provide something substantial to respond to.






Now then, about this topic of Senna/Schumacher:

There's no denying the WCs, races, poles, and records both men set during their respective eras. Both were fast and exciting to watch, until... well enough has been said about those incidents (Japan, Australia & Jerez) already.

As opinions go, I suppose that some this debate may hinge on the fact that some of us here can remember a time when conduct detrimental to sports was not so abundant as it has become in recent times. With regard to GP racing, I was hoping that Senna's episodes of destruction were that last of that kind. Unfortunately it wasn't.

Which is why I have no high regard for either AS or MS, with exception from their charitable contributions (respectively; homeless children in Brazil & Katrina).


It certainly takes tremendous talent and commitment to compete in the pinacle of racing. However, while demonstrating those traits required for that arena, there are also fundamental responsibilities of a GP driver that should be observed and maintained for the welfare and integrity of the sport.
I'm impressed, and appreciate your high moral standards!
It's commendable.
You made a poor comparison however. Look at everything Mike brought to Ferrari, and f1 overall.
You implied that his entire career will be tainted and, or minimalized.
I disagree with that!
I'm also willing to leave it at that...Cheers

Shalafi
29th December 2007, 23:19
I didnt like him, most of the time I even hated him... But I still can say he was the most succesfull and because of that, the best driver ever in F1. Ruthless and unfair maybe, but best "complete" driver ever that F1 have seen. Hats off to him.

Garry Walker
2nd January 2008, 16:21
Through necessity, as opposed to choice.
Obviously. But then they should have worked more for education and tried to make best use of their talents, instead of lazying around. Sure there are people, for whom working at Asda really is the most they can do, but there are people working jobs like that, who in reality have far more talent. But they are too lazy.

SGWilko
2nd January 2008, 16:27
Obviously. But then they should have worked more for education and tried to make best use of their talents, instead of lazying around. Sure there are people, for whom working at Asda really is the most they can do, but there are people working jobs like that, who in reality have far more talent. But they are too lazy.

Have you read Jackie Stewarts bio? I am doing so at the moment. He writes from the heart about his Dyslexia, and how it affected his life up to it being diagnosed when in his 40's.

Some people are labelled stupid/lazy, when in fact, they have a condition that teachers are not trained to diagnose. Many of these kids at school are treated very badly/accused of being lazy/stupid, when in fact they are very bright.

Don't stereotype everyone working the minimum wage. They probably are very bright, but maybe they are Dyslexic and are not aware of it.......

And some ARE just lazy feckers, I'll give you that..... ;) But these ones tend not to work at all and sponge off tax payers.........

Garry Walker
2nd January 2008, 16:46
Have you read Jackie Stewarts bio? I am doing so at the moment. He writes from the heart about his Dyslexia, and how it affected his life up to it being diagnosed when in his 40's.

Exactly my point. He was disadvantaged in a way, but he used his talent and worked bloody hard to get where he has gotten.




Some people are labelled stupid/lazy, when in fact, they have a condition that teachers are not trained to diagnose. Many of these kids at school are treated very badly/accused of being lazy/stupid, when in fact they are very bright.

Don't stereotype everyone working the minimum wage. They probably are very bright, but maybe they are Dyslexic and are not aware of it.......

And some ARE just lazy feckers, I'll give you that..... ;) But these ones tend not to work at all and sponge off tax payers.........
Not everyone working for minimum wage is stupid or suffering from dyslexia. They are the people who have just been lazy and lack drive, and it is those people I have a problem with. For some people, due to their limited mental abilities, cleaning or pushing trolleys is really the most they can do (and they find even that difficult) and I can respect that.

I also have to say that dyslexia is no excuse. One of my best friends suffers from it and it was hard for him through his school years, yet he worked bloody hard and is now a very highly rated expert on taxes and has had his works published.

SGWilko
2nd January 2008, 16:50
I also have to say that dyslexia is no excuse. One of my best friends suffers from it and it was hard for him through his school years, yet he worked bloody hard and is now a very highly rated expert on taxes and has had his works published.

No, not an excuse - NEVER an excuse. But as your friend seems to have been correctly diagnosed, he will have been taught how to deal with his condition.

That is the whole point.

AAReagles
3rd January 2008, 21:47
Correction:

...Which is why I have no high regard for either AS or MS, with exception from their charitable contributions (respectively; homeless children in Brazil & Katrina).

Instead of "Katrina", I meant the 2004 Tsunami-relief. Sorry about that.






You made a poor comparison however. Look at everything Mike brought to Ferrari, and f1 overall.
You implied that his entire career will be tainted and, or minimalized.
I disagree with that!
I'm also willing to leave it at that...Cheers

Well said, in respect of your opinion of him.

As you say, he has brought alot to the sport. But there was also considerable amount of negativity that accompanied his achievements. More so than I can recollect of any other driver. That, along with his records will not be forgotten, except perhaps for the occasional follower of the sport.

I'm a fan of Lauda, and I still haven't forgotten how he bailed out (retired) of GP racing during practice at the Canadian GP in 1979. I realize it's a business, but I thought it was wrong for him to do his fans that way, some of who may have traveled many miles to witness his performance.

I was a fan of Alan Jones, until he went into CBM (Cry-Baby-Mode) after his teammate, Carlos Reutemann, refused to obey team orders to allow Jones to win in the 1981 Brazilian GP. In my book, that goes for any driver engaging in too much soap-opera like dialogue with another driver. Jones vs. Piquet, Villenueve vs. Pironi, Senna vs. Prost, etc.

Just some examples of how things aren't forgotten.

Anyways, as folks who posted (including yourself) on this thread noted, it's a matter of opinion. Any biography written on that driver, as with Senna, will state some matters of controversy that occured in his career. The assessment of career vs. controversy just depends on the 'eye of the beholder' so to speak.

3rd January 2008, 22:16
For some people, due to their limited mental abilities, cleaning or pushing trolleys is really the most they can do (and they find even that difficult) and I can respect that.

This is way, way off topic, but I used to get pissed off (in my head) at the supermarket when the cashier asked if I needed help with my bags and always said 'no'..

Then one day I noticed that the girl packing the bags was.....how can I put it....Special Needs(?) and I realised that if ****ers like myself packed their own bags the chances were she wouldn't have a secure job.

Ever since then, I've said 'Yes', even though I don't need help.

Anybody who works, no matter if it's Michael Schumacher or the girl with Special Needs down my local supermarket, should be respected.

Actually, even though I'm a huge Ferrari fan, the girl down my supermarket should get more respect.

Tazio
3rd January 2008, 23:07
It's become obvious that you are unwilling to comprehend what I mentioned. Not to mention that your vain attempts to vindicate controversial conduct are becoming rather boring.

So until you can provide some sort of reasonable debate, I'll just dismiss your raging rhetorics after I read them, and will continue to do so until you manage to provide something substantial to respond to.




Now then, about this topic of Senna/Schumacher:

There's no denying the WCs, races, poles, and records both men set during their respective eras. Both were fast and exciting to watch, until... well enough has been said about those incidents (Japan, Australia & Jerez) already.

As opinions go, I suppose that some this debate may hinge on the fact that some of us here can remember a time when conduct detrimental to sports was not so abundant as it has become in recent times. With regard to GP racing, I was hoping that Senna's episodes of destruction were that last of that kind. Unfortunately it wasn't.

Which is why I have no high regard for either AS or MS, with exception from their charitable contributions (respectively; homeless children in Brazil & Katrina).


It certainly takes tremendous talent and commitment to compete in the pinacle of racing. However, while demonstrating those traits required for that arena, there are also fundamental responsibilities of a GP driver that should be observed and maintained for the welfare and integrity of the sport.Very well stated! I agree with everything in this post.
The problem with mentioning an asterisk after someone’s name while making a Baseball comparison is; the official records of baseball player's do contain asterisk's. It is a very official protocol. Like surpassing another players accomplishments, after the total number of league games is expanded. Roger Maris had an * after he surpassed Babe Ruth’s single season homerun record. Ruth established the record in 154 games, Maris in 162. They * his @$$ even though he acomplisd the record with less at bats than Ruth. If baseball gave asterisks for dangerous behavior Cobb would lead the majors all time by allot, Mike is a Choirboy in comparison. There are hundreds of pages of baseball lore dedicated to expressing the negative aspects of Cobb’s career. No Asterisk in the official record however. I thought that that was what we were discussing. I think your point would have been better made if you compared him to another auto racing bad boy!

AAReagles
4th January 2008, 19:26
... If baseball gave asterisks for dangerous behavior Cobb would lead the majors all time by allot, Mike is a Choirboy in comparison. There are hundreds of pages of baseball lore dedicated to expressing the negative aspects of Cobb’s career... I think your point would have been better made if you compared him to another auto racing bad boy!

Real quick on this baseball stuff (as I'm sure folks here were getting tired of us discussing it in length) - I see your point as well on Cobbs, along with your passion for the sport.

Again, as I stated before, Bonds is the "current" (and so far only) baseball player to have that * regarded towards him - due to the fan who caught his record-breaking HR, who later posted an online poll of what the fans think he should do with the ball...

Forgive me if I can't remember correctly;

1) Send it (the ball) to the Hall Of Fame
2) Give to Bonds
3) Send it to the HOF with an *

You know as well as I do, here in the states, you don't even have to be a baseball fan to know what all was being contested on the matter, since it was on the news every damn night, for almost a week.

And ya, I agree about Cobbs, though I don't follow baseball.



Anyways MS, also a current sports icon, as I noted before, with controversy that the sport has seldom seen before (w/exception to Senna), was the reason, as you know by now, as to why I compared him to Bonds.

However, everyone here knows that no asterisk will be given out to any athlete of any sport. That was just my sarcastic jab (half-jokingly) remark towards MS.

I've been on this forum long enough not to engage in some of the silly fueds of "MS only fans" or "Juan Montoya fans only" threads. Hence as to why the Mods have strongly suggested for members to keep their wits about them while discussing/debating on this forum.

I'm serious about the faults with MS & AS, as I'm (or rather, long ago, I was) passionate about GP racing as you are with baseball. But I wasn't serious about actually placing an *. Note the smiley face I placed on my TITLE LINE on my post, when I stated "here's 5 short words."

Anyways, as they say in society nowadays, "it's all good."

Tazio
5th January 2008, 18:06
Real quick on this baseball stuff (as I'm sure folks here were getting tired of us discussing it in length) - I see your point as well on Cobbs, along with your passion for the sport.

Again, as I stated before, Bonds is the "current" (and so far only) baseball player to have that * regarded towards him - due to the fan who caught his record-breaking HR, who later posted an online poll of what the fans think he should do with the ball...

Forgive me if I can't remember correctly;

1) Send it (the ball) to the Hall Of Fame
2) Give to Bonds
3) Send it to the HOF with an *

You know as well as I do, here in the states, you don't even have to be a baseball fan to know what all was being contested on the matter, since it was on the news every damn night, for almost a week.

And ya, I agree about Cobbs, though I don't follow baseball.



Anyways MS, also a current sports icon, as I noted before, with controversy that the sport has seldom seen before (w/exception to Senna), was the reason, as you know by now, as to why I compared him to Bonds.

However, everyone here knows that no asterisk will be given out to any athlete of any sport. That was just my sarcastic jab (half-jokingly) remark towards MS.

I've been on this forum long enough not to engage in some of the silly fueds of "MS only fans" or "Juan Montoya fans only" threads. Hence as to why the Mods have strongly suggested for members to keep their wits about them while discussing/debating on this forum.

I'm serious about the faults with MS & AS, as I'm (or rather, long ago, I was) passionate about GP racing as you are with baseball. But I wasn't serious about actually placing an *. Note the smiley face I placed on my TITLE LINE on my post, when I stated "here's 5 short words."

Anyways, as they say in society nowadays, "it's all good."
Oh, what you were refering to was a metaphoric, or symbolic *
Open up an Official Baseball Record Book you will in fact find REAL *'s,
and Bonds may or may not get one!
BTW I am much more interested in f1 than Baseball. I played Baseball untill I was 43.
The game bores the cr@p out of me now, and is played by a bunch of overpaid Ego-maniacs.
I don't mind F1 being elitest. It's been that way as long as I can remember watching it.
Atended by what we use to call Jet-Setters.

I lost my pasion for Baseball along time ago. So please, don't paint me that way............Cheers!