Non TC MOre Dangerous?

[SGWilko]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63971

OK. Has this guy got a point? WHat did the F1 drivers do when they had 1000 plus horsepower in the wet? (and engines that had acceleration like an on/off switch). Have drivers testes shrunk recently? :p :

These guys are paid gazillions to drive, should they not just shut up and drive, otherwise they know where the door is.........

Tsk.

[Mark]

Formula one cars should be difficult to drive. They are not Ford Fiesta's

[ioan]

They were pampered to much lately.

For sure there will be more DNFs in difficult track conditions, but as we saw this season, life threatening accidents don't happen often and when happen it's usually for cars making contact not because of lack of TC.

[markabilly]

It should be a question of skill, and always thought throttle control was a very important part of the skill.

otherwise they just need to go full electronic and leave the driver in the pits at a computer to drive by radio control with special software to keep him from turning the wheel too quckly to eliminate all those spins.....

Of course, this would lead to the development of special computer programs and electronics to eliminate the driver even from the pits......instead of a WDC for 2009, we could replace it with a "World Programmer/engineer Championship"

May the best nerd win!!!

[OTA]

No, they should not shut up and drive as they are the ones putting their life in risk, but I don't really think that there is any proof that the car with TC is less life threating that one wthout them.
I beleive that life threating accidents normally happen at high speeds, while TC is mostly usefull in low and medium speeds. I don't think that Kubica's accident could had been worse without TC just to name the last very big crash. I also think that the increase in errors they all claim won't be that much.
About the era of the 1000 HP, times change and a direct comparison is difficult to make, as power is just one part of the package.

[ArrowsFA1]

Has this guy got a point?
I don't think so. I agree with Mark, ioan and markabilly. Perish the thought that drivers now have to control the throttle themselves :eek: :eek: If drivers are good because they've had TC to help them out then they'd best find another job.

Riccardo Patrese (http://askriccardo.blogspot.com/2007/05/auto-or-manual.html) was quite clear on the subject:

"From the point of view of the pleasure of driving I think traction control is rubbish because it takes feeling away from the driver - from the point of view of sliding, controlling the power, steering with the throttle. All the electronics make driving the car too easy."

These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. Thankfully, without TC we have more of a chance of seeing their skill :cool:

[hmmm - donuts]

WHat did the F1 drivers do when they had 1000 plus horsepower in the wet? (and engines that had acceleration like an on/off switch).




I can remember going to see the qualifying several times at Silverstone in the days of the old 12 lap qualifying format. In those days the teams used qualifying engines which just about held together for 12 laps, and qualifying tyres which also just about held up for the 12 laps. The cars looked truly scary when the drivers floored it as they were coming onto the pit straight and the back end would try to catch up with the pointy end! Especially with some drivers whose qualifying technique seemed to be to knowingly enter corners too fast, and then worry about sorting it out afterwards.

Regards

[SGWilko]

I can remember going to see the qualifying several times at Silverstone in the days of the old 12 lap qualifying format. In those days the teams used qualifying engines which just about held together for 12 laps, and qualifying tyres which also just about held up for the 12 laps. The cars looked truly scary when the drivers floored it as they were coming onto the pit straight and the back end would try to catch up with the pointy end! Especially with some drivers whose qualifying technique seemed to be to knowingly enter corners too fast, and then worry about sorting it out afterwards.

Regards

Ah, those were the days eh? Ayrton deliberately crashing on his last qually lap at Magny Cours because he knew to do so was the quickest way.........

[ioan]

In those days the teams used qualifying engines which just about held together for 12 laps, and qualifying tyres which also just about held up for the 12 laps.

I beg your pardon, those tires were only used for maximum 4 laps! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

I beg your pardon, those tires were only used for maximum 4 laps! ;)
Time was Q-tyres would only last a lap :dozey: No pressure then!

[SGWilko]

No pressure then!

Oh, was Fernando driving back then too, and still complaining about the same old things. :D

[Bagwan]

I like Massa , but he's no genius in the rain .

Mind you , that doesn't make him a dolt here either .

He's saying it will be more of a challenge , and I agree . Some drivers , including Felipe at the forefront , will struggle , especially when it rains .
They will spin on exit , tangling wheels regularly , and we will see who has the control of the foot and hand most readily in the rain .

That , simply , does make it more dangerous .
It also makes him sound like a wimp , loathing the thought , cowering in fear .

But then , that same thought that there is trepidation amongst the drivers for what is to come , makes me wring my hands in anticipation .

F1 has slowly been losing that air of "devil may care" with the moves to make it safer . Certainly , nobody wants the loss of life that we had in the past , but , at least without TC , we may have some reminders of the good old days when all they wanted were "big fat slicks , and enough power to break them loose" .

[DimitraF1]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/071116142823.shtml



Today drivers are playstation-like drivers..they remove the TC and suddenly Massa is half a second behind old schumi ..a year after his retirement!!!
That means only 1 to me..F1 nowadays is a joke... No real fights, no real powerfull cars.

My opinion is that many drivers will struggle next year and many experienced drivers will give us a class show!!!

I look forward to!!!

Coulthard,Button,Alonso,Kimi and Rubens.... Are on a different class..will show it next year with TC ban.

[Corny]

My opinion is that many drivers will struggle next year

This is no amature championship man, this is formula 1, the 22 best drivers of the world..

[rabf1]

Interesting article. Maybe next year will be some fun after all. Sounds like all he knew how to do was stomp on it and let the computer control the car.

[ShiftingGears]

More challenging - I wouldn't say more dangerous. I do think some drivers should just shut up about safety and drive.

[Sleeper]

I'm not surprised of the comments coming from Massa, over the last few years he's been one of the least imprewssive drivers in the wet, sometimes by quite a margine. Can someone name me a wet race were he hasnt been relatively slow and/or spun?

Throughout the year there has been one driver or another that has said this, hell, when a TC ban was first proposed a few years ago I remember Montoya saying it would be more dangerous (that cought me by surprise, I would have thought Montoya would have been chuffed to get rid of TC).

I think I prefered it when drivers complained that they had to have TC. :cool:

[Allyc85]

Massa should STFU or get out if hes scared!! Anyone remember silverstone 2002 when he spun 4 times with TC lmao

[wmcot]

I can get 2 meanings from his comments depending on how I read them. It seems that he is just stating that there will be more errors, especially in the wet. I think his concern is that less experienced drivers may take some of the top competitors out with them. Still, I like the rule as it adds a bit of uncertainty back into the racing.

For the same reason, I'd like to see the 19000rpm rule done away with. The thought that an engine might give up the ghost on one of the leaders made racing a lot more interesting than watching a parade of reliability!

[GP-M3]

For the same reason, I'd like to see the 19000rpm rule done away with. The thought that an engine might give up the ghost on one of the leaders made racing a lot more interesting than watching a parade of reliability!

I'm all for that. It seemed the Merc engine would fly apart at the least provocation and leave Kimi stranded on too many occasions in 2006. This year it was a model of reliablility... I'd like to see it up in smoke on Lewis a few time next year when they need to push! :p

[truefan72]

I don't think so. I agree with Mark, ioan and markabilly. Perish the thought that drivers now have to control the throttle themselves :eek: :eek: If drivers are good because they've had TC to help them out then they'd best find another job.

Riccardo Patrese (http://askriccardo.blogspot.com/2007/05/auto-or-manual.html) was quite clear on the subject:


These are supposed to be the best drivers in the world. Thankfully, without TC we have more of a chance of seeing their skill :cool:

couldn't agree more :up:


I like Massa , but he's no genius in the rain .

Mind you , that doesn't make him a dolt here either .

He's saying it will be more of a challenge , and I agree . Some drivers , including Felipe at the forefront , will struggle , especially when it rains .
They will spin on exit , tangling wheels regularly , and we will see who has the control of the foot and hand most readily in the rain .

That , simply , does make it more dangerous .
It also makes him sound like a wimp , loathing the thought , cowering in fear .

But then , that same thought that there is trepidation amongst the drivers for what is to come , makes me wring my hands in anticipation .

F1 has slowly been losing that air of "devil may care" with the moves to make it safer . Certainly , nobody wants the loss of life that we had in the past , but , at least without TC , we may have some reminders of the good old days when all they wanted were "big fat slicks , and enough power to break them loose" .


Look, Massa realy needs to substitute all the "we" in his comments with "I"

IMO he needs to keep silent about this matter or at the very least say, "it won't be a problem" or "we are all in the same situation"

rather than lamenting about his inability to drive without TC. It just makes him seem like less of a quality driver and more of a conductor. If I were him I'd find the simulator and/or the car and spend as much time learning to drive without TC as possible, instead of bitching to the press.

[Ari]

So let me get this straight. Massa, who's never driven with TC, is a half second slower than 7 time WDC Schumacher?

And this is a shock because?

Massa will get into it. He just needs a little time to learn to drive the car without TC. Personally, I think being only a half second behind is very, very impressive considering it was his first day and he's being compared to one of the greats of all time.

Media beat up for mine....

[Valve Bounce]

So let me get this straight. Massa, who's never driven with TC, is a half second slower than 7 time WDC Schumacher?

And this is a shock because?

Massa will get into it. He just needs a little time to learn to drive the car without TC. Personally, I think being only a half second behind is very, very impressive considering it was his first day and he's being compared to one of the greats of all time.

Media beat up for mine....

Let's be honest here: Massa never was anywhere as capable a driver as SchM. If, for any reason, Kimi were to be replaced by SchM, for the season, or just a number of races, he would kick Massa's butt.

Right now, if SchM is interested in test driving the Ferrari, I reckon (only my opinion here) that given half a chance, he would return to race in Massa's place. I don't know how Kimi would take that sort of arrangement, but that's another story.

[Ranger]

When will these topics cease. The beat-up about those 2 test days with Schumacher is ridiculous.

Based on the assumption that many people have about those tests that Schumacher is faster than the rest of the field (which many seem to have), then similarly, based purely on those times, Luca Badoer is a faster driver than Felipe, according to their margins behind Schumacher.

No?

[Valve Bounce]

When will these topics cease. The beat-up about those 2 test days with Schumacher is ridiculous.

Based on the assumption that many people have about those tests that Schumacher is faster than the rest of the field (which many seem to have), then similarly, based purely on those times, Luca Badoer is a faster driver than Felipe, according to their margins behind Schumacher.

No?

OK, I'll buy that!

[ioan]

Felipe was still fastest of them all in the last day of testing. So if he's not good what about the others? :rolleyes:

People around here either didn't watch F1 carefully or they have selective memory, not to mention the bias.

Do you people realize that all of these drivers started their careers driving karts, yeah does small very tail happy thingies with no trace of TC. And they were all the best at doing that, that's why they get into F1 after many years driving different TC free racing cars.
But hey, why would you let a bit of logical thinking get in the way of your bias? :rolleyes: :s

[ShiftingGears]

Felipe was still fastest of them all in the last day of testing. So if he's not good what about the others? :rolleyes:

People around here either didn't watch F1 carefully or they have selective memory, not to mention the bias.

Do you people realize that all of these drivers started their careers driving karts, yeah does small very tail happy thingies with no trace of TC. And they were all the best at doing that, that's why they get into F1 after many years driving different TC free racing cars.
But hey, why would you let a bit of logical thinking get in the way of your bias? :rolleyes: :s

LOL

[Easy Drifter]

OH OH! We have real trouble here. I agree with ioan!
8th wonder of the world.

[markabilly]

It is the same in Motogp

For years it was said there would never be traction control in motorcylces,
because such a device has to consider lean angles, various g-forces, the measurement of slip, and the very real problem of the "highside" that occurrs when one gets a bit too hot, and then cuts back on the throttle.

For those not famailar, the highside has something to do with the physics of rear wheel movement, coupled with the physics of the bike and the g-forces pushing the bike away from the direction of the curve.

With the sudden shutting or even easing off the gas, it causes the bike to straighten up, and go over to the opposite side of the corner. Ussually tossing the rider up into the air in the opposite direction of the curve --sometimes even over in front of the bike--with a very unpleasant bounce when they come down--indeed saw Casey Stoner while riding 250cc bikes do it in consecutive races, breaking the wind screen in the process. The second resulted in some injuries.

The magic of motogp and other forms of motorcyle racing, much like F1 used to be, was you can see everything the rider is doing in terms of throttle control, braking, shifting, rider lean and so forth.

Most of the accidents seem to be where the rider senses something is wrong. Watch carefully and you can the see the wrist backing off the throttle, and the next thing, everything comes apart, rider is in the air and so forth. OTOH, rider in trouble who does NOT do the sudden wrist movements, might do a low-side, might slide off the track, but usually no high side. Indeed accleration dirt track style (the reason American riders dominated motorcyle racing for a number of years, some number of years ago), can power a rider through a problem, where as backing off leads to problems.

At the is year's Seca motogp, I saw the motogp boys just twist the throttle full on at the apex of the corners and hold it. The wild card riders were shocked at how much easier it was to ride the motogp bikes than their own usual race bikes, indeed this is easier than riding a street bike hard--the big change was the unique carbon brakes, but outside of that, just crank the throttle on and hold it. Bike does the rest. Do it on a superbike and die. Do it on a motogp bike of a couple of years ago and die.

Do it like Casey was aways doing it, and plan on replacing the wind screens broken by your body as it flies through the air. Do it just the same as Casey still does it on his Ducati motogp bike now, and not only win, but dominate motogp.

And for a recent article, here is a rookie motogp rider complaining about this driver aid, http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64022

If it can be done in Motogp, with a very complex set of physics and balance required, then only a question of time, if permitted, that F1 couples the braking, steering and throttle to produce cars that will not spin...indeed, the electornics maps out the track to determine max speed through the corner and so forth...just hit gas, hit brakes anywhere before the corner or during the corner, point and hit throttle. And even the "pointing" and "braking" could easily become a thing of the past.....

[Valve Bounce]

Felipe was still fastest of them all in the last day of testing. So if he's not good what about the others? :rolleyes:

People around here either didn't watch F1 carefully or they have selective memory, not to mention the bias.

But hey, why would you let a bit of logical thinking get in the way of your bias? :rolleyes: :s

OK, so what does your logical, unbiased consideration conclude? SchM still is the better driver or Massa?

[ioan]

OK, so what does your logical, unbiased consideration conclude? SchM still is the better driver or Massa?

None of them F1 drivers measure up to MS. I hope that answers your question! :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Going by the remarkable performance during this week's tests, I just wonder why SchM retired. What was the real reason? Surely the fact that he came back to test the car indicates that he is not tired of F1, nor has he lost any of his ability (as I had previously assumed).

I think this would be a good topic for a new thread, don't you?

[passmeatissue]

Going by the remarkable performance during this week's tests, I just wonder why SchM retired. What was the real reason? Surely the fact that he came back to test the car indicates that he is not tired of F1, nor has he lost any of his ability (as I had previously assumed).

I think this would be a good topic for a new thread, don't you?

Yes, interesting.

For me, it's about intensity and he has made the right choice. Age is maybe less important than the number of years they have competed, so Mansell won his wdc at 39, for example, but MS has just has enough after 15 years, even his drive has finally dwindled.

I think the drive needed to race a season of F1 at the top is just so colossal, and you can't 'decide' to have it - it's there or it's not. Remember Hill's awful last season for example. Massa was close to MS in 06, and he recognised the signs. But he still has his inherent speed, and loves driving the car and doing the development. There was a pic of him at Barca doing the debrief, demonstrating steering with his hands and all eyes on him, having a great time (away from the media...).

[Valve Bounce]

I'm just going one step further: did he walk or was he pushed to make way for Kimi?

[passmeatissue]

I'm just going one step further: did he walk or was he pushed to make way for Kimi?

Aha! Well he dithered a long time, as I recall, asked for more time to decide, and Todt had a policy of lining up his ducks early.

So maybe Todt detected his drive ebbing a bit? In his heyday, Schumi would have taken up the challenge, so Todt put Kimi in, had his answer and his solution for the future, all in one stroke. Clever fellow.

No hard feelings now, anyway, so you would think more of a nudge than a push, at most.

[markabilly]

Aha! Well he dithered a long time, as I recall, asked for more time to decide, and Todt had a policy of lining up his ducks early.

So maybe Todt detected his drive ebbing a bit? In his heyday, Schumi would have taken up the challenge, so Todt put Kimi in, had his answer and his solution for the future, all in one stroke. Clever fellow.

No hard feelings now, anyway, so you would think more of a nudge than a push, at most.
All you have to do is watch the aftermath of Monza GP, the body english and behavior of MS, to realize that JT was NOT the one doing the pushing, it was Luca, and that should be even clearer now, with MS, RB and now JT as wellas the rest.....poor Luca's ego could not handle it....so be it, time will tell its tale.

[wmcot]

Just a couple of thoughts:

1. It's just testing, so times are not completely relative to race performance of next year's cars.

2. Remember MS is not holding down a race seat, so I would imagine that he is driving for the pure pleasure of it with no pressure at all. Being relaxed in the car combined with his talent would make him very fast, indeed!

[Breeze]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63971

OK. Has this guy got a point? WHat did the F1 drivers do when they had 1000 plus horsepower in the wet? ............

Tsk.
Of course he's got a point. And to answer your question, they had more accidents. Even the guys with extra long center straps to their 5-point harnesses.

[yodasarmpit]

It's only right that safety is paramount, but it has to be a balance between safety and entertainment and removing traction control is worth it for the added entertainment factor.
For us, the fans, we want to see the best drivers in the world showing off their true driving skills.
Otherwise they should all drive Honda Civics with full roll cages and limited to 100MPH, nice and safe but not quite what you would get up at 3am to watch.

[ioan]

It's only right that safety is paramount, but it has to be a balance between safety and entertainment...

To be honest I don't think that anyone should put his/her safety in jeopardy just in the name of entertainment. :mad:

[yodasarmpit]

To be honest I don't think that anyone should put his/her safety in jeopardy just in the name of entertainment. :mad:

Ermmm, F1 is an entertainment industry.
There will always be inherent dangers in motor racing, and as I said there has to be a balance drawn between safety and the spectacle that is F1.

Removing traction control, in my opinion, does not create a level of jeopardy to have it ruled out.

[rabf1]

My guess is that the lack of tc will result in more accidents, especially at the first corners after the starts.

[Easy Drifter]

As pointed out earlier all of these drivers have driven most of their careers without TC. Not F1 but most of there careers. Certainly the lack of TC is going to make the cars more difficult to drive but the cars and tracks will not be less safe. These guys are supposed to be the best so they should be able to handle it.
Love him or hate him but JV absolutely detested TC.
There will probably be more accidents especially in the wet but the consequences will unlikely to be too severe with the current safety. Also in the wet you are going far slower. Yes, injury or even a death are possible but that is always the case.
It is not like it was in the 60's and 70's when you came home from the track and were almost afraid to open Monday's paper. At times it seemed like every weekend someone you knew or had raced against had been killed or badly injured. I am sure 'markabilly' will agree with me on that.
I knew and/or had raced against more than 20 drivers who died or were totally crippled in that era.
Safety, yeah right. My right knee rested against one of my aluminum gas tanks (no bladder, no foam) which was slung outside the frame covered by a 16ths inch of fibreglass. Just a lap belt. Open face helmet. Originally a cotton driving suit. Latterly a Nomex suit, 1 layer and Nomex underwear with a Nomex bandana. Leather gloves (thin) and leather boxing boots with wool socks. That was better protection than most had.

[airshifter]

It seems like some of the drivers simply don't like any changes at all. Many were upset when they made the HANS device mandantory, and that was about nothing other than driver protection. ;)

Removing TC should be good for F1. It will be another aspect of car control required by the driver, and will even catch the good drivers by surprise at times. As it is now it's another way for the good teams to have more advantage to the car. I'm all for technology in F1, but there has to be a line so that driver input remains.

Take a look at the changes already made in TC and removing launch control. For a period, it was a matter of the better car. Now the driver input affect much more of the start, even though TC works after the initial launch.

[SGWilko]

He's at it again.....

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64296

He'd make a great Labour politician! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

He's at it again.....
Poor old Felipe doesn't seem too happy about not having TC does he :crazy:

[SGWilko]

Poor old Felipe doesn't seem too happy about not having TC does he :crazy:

Still, it keeps him in the news.....

[passmeatissue]

Still, it keeps him in the news.....

Yes, having to make an effort with MS around ;) .

I'm a bit surprised actually that Michael hasn't had a quiet word with him about the importance of positive thinking...

[SGWilko]

Yes, having to make an effort with MS around ;) .

I'm a bit surprised actually that Michael hasn't had a quiet word with him about the importance of positive thinking...

Perhaps Fillipe needs to rearrange his locker for a better Feng thingermy Karma wotsit...... :D

[ioan]

I don't see what is wrong in what Felipe said!
Maybe some of you could explain?

[jso1985]

I don't see what is wrong in what Felipe said!
Maybe some of you could explain?

He's spoiling the fun for the guys who still think No-TC will actually be a big change in F1 by giving them a reality check, a helluva good reason to bash him ;)

[Sleeper]

I'm still a bit surprised at the attention that the TC ban is getting. Its not going to make much difference at all. If the cars are more difficult to drive a the moment, thats because they are 07 cars designed to be driven with TC and now dont have any, next years cars will be designed with more tollerences in the mechanics allowing for better traction, but I think thats only going to be a small change.

The big change is that with the standard ECU the teams no-longer have a system that controls the engine braking, i.e. the electrics wont ease off the engine braking when the downforce bleeds off under deceleration for a corner, making it easier to lock the rears. This is were the drivers will have to make a change in their driving styles.

[Colin]

Going by the remarkable performance during this week's tests, I just wonder why SchM retired.

I remember that Mario Andretti could muster the concentration to run good qualifying laps well into his 40's, but would fade in the races. I think that qualifying and practice are one thing, and 2 hour races are another.

[ioan]

He's spoiling the fun for the guys who still think No-TC will actually be a big change in F1 by giving them a reality check, a helluva good reason to bash him ;)

That's what I thought too! :)

[ShiftingGears]

Massa whinges too much.

[Magnum P.I.]

Going by the remarkable performance during this week's tests, I just wonder why SchM retired.

He retired for the same reason he submitted. He had nothing else to prove in Formula 1, he has set nearly every record. F*** sake why not get out a 7 time world champion with 100 billiontrillionmillionz?



I remember that Mario Andretti could muster the concentration to run good qualifying laps well into his 40's, but would fade in the races. I think that qualifying and practice are one thing, and 2 hour races are another.

Hahahaha....yeah Ferrari sat MS down and said "we are starting to get concerned Michael, your not delivering anymore..." Why does everyone still make up stupid reason why he retired? Can you not except it? He retired, plain and simple, get over it.

[Colin]

He retired for the same reason he submitted. He had nothing else to prove in Formula 1, he has set nearly every record. F*** sake why not get out a 7 time world champion with 100 billiontrillionmillionz?



Why does everyone still make up stupid reason why he retired? Can you not except it? He retired, plain and simple, get over it.

I can accept it. It was valve that seemed to be asking a 'what if' type of question. I was offering a 'what if' type of answer. I think F1 is more exciting without him and I think it will be better still without TC. It brings back the possibility of driver error and should create better racing.