Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that says Champ Car does not answer the bell in 2008...

[SoCalPVguy]

Before the flamers start in with me, let me say I am a long-time (since mid-1960's) avid follower of open wheel racing. I have attended OW races at all So Cal locations from Riverside to Ontario to Long Beach to Fontana plus all other west coast locations (Laguna Seca, Phoenix, etc...). I have also traveled to all Canadian races (Vancouver to Montreal to Toronto). There is no bigger fan of the original Champ car model of OW racing than me, as I favor a series that challenges with small ovals, large ovals, road and street courses. The Champ car I remember had the best technology, best drivers, best venues (all, arguably) in the world. I have seen every great from Gurney to Foyt to Andretti - I am not a D&G'er; if you accuse me of this, it would be inaccurate.

However, I am a realist and a businessman and I can see the writing on the wall. I doubt Champ Car will answer the bell in 2008...

As Mr. Eagle Eye wrote (and after about 5-years of lurking daily on the board, I can say he is the most accurate poster here), there are some serious, some might say fatal, issues in play for CCWS at this time:

-Three canceled races (And Vegas in the lurch, unless it is purchased by the three Chumps, EE's words, I'll charitably say "amigos")

You can spin the loss of San Jose venue all you want, with a trade to Laguna Seca but that's bull, LS is way out in the boonies, no one has gone there in the past (20-k max. last crowd) and on one will go there in the future either, that is a loser "trade" if ever there was one. Better racing course, Yes, but who cares when nobody will be there to see it.

-Pay for time TV partner
-Continued Dismal TV ratings
-Seats to the highest bidder

Have to add in that except an over-the-hill Paul Tracy, there is not ONE recognizable name driver to the average joe !!!

-Loss of respect and coverage from those in the Motorsport media

Anybody been reading Phillps and Miller lately ???

-Lack of series promotion
-Lack of driver or team promotion
-No title sponsorship

No comes word that the gIRL series is may ne getting a very strong title sponsor, "Anheuser-Busch and Budweiser beer". CCWS has no title sponsor and frankly no prospects for getting any.

-Low car count
-Teams folding, or leaving the series
-Top sponsors leaving

CDW is the latest sponsor to bail. At best they go to another team (NHL) but the damage is done, RuSport is gonzo.

-Being sued left and right
-Owners at each others throats (almost literally)

Scumbag Paul G. putting X-rated video website and sleazy strip clubs on as sponsers. Count me and my family "out". Just because he likes to go to Spearmint Rhino, it is not (!!!) an acceptable sponser.

-Inept management
-Loss of three cars (at the moment)

Check out RuSport, from 2-car "contender" in 2006 to "gone" in 2008. Conquest, Coyne, how will they be hanging on ??? I see only about 12 cars at most rolling over from this year to 2008.

Furthermore, the gIRL series is now offering a more competitive financial assistance package for teams that compete in the entire series.

Man do I hate those crapwagons, they are ugly, low tech, and although they go 'roundy-roundy' pretty well, they are pigs on a road course. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, the call hasn't already been made and Danica Patrick hasn't been a winner. Don't even start me in with how much I hate Nascab...

Yeah, I know they are selling tickets for the LB GP now, but I wouldn't send them any money unless I didn't plan to not get it back.

The I-500 is the 8,000-lb. gorilla that will drive the other league into success although the other weak sister series events will be dragged along. CCWS has no event to counter the I-500 and that has and will be their ultimate downfall.

[Cart750hp]

Alright.....sanguin, weefly, sandfly.....what say you?

[994ever]

Before the flamers start in with me, let me say I am a long-time (since mid-1960's) avid follower of open wheel racing. I have attended OW races at all So Cal locations from Riverside to Ontario to Long Beach to Fontana plus all other west coast locations (Laguna Seca, Phoenix, etc...). I have also traveled to all Canadian races (Vancouver to Montreal to Toronto). There is no bigger fan of the original Champ car model of OW racing than me, as I favor a series that challenges with small ovals, large ovals, road and street courses. The Champ car I remember had the best technology, best drivers, best venues (all, arguably) in the world. I have seen every great from Gurney to Foyt to Andretti - I am not a D&G'er; if you accuse me of this, it would be inaccurate.

However, I am a realist and a businessman and I can see the writing on the wall. I doubt Champ Car will answer the bell in 2008...

As Mr. Eagle Eye wrote (and after about 5-years of lurking daily on the board, I can say he is the most accurate poster here), there are some serious, some might say fatal, issues in play for CCWS at this time:

-Three canceled races (And Vegas in the lurch, unless it is purchased by the three Chumps, EE's words, I'll charitably say "amigos")

You can spin the loss of San Jose venue all you want, with a trade to Laguna Seca but that's bull, LS is way out in the boonies, no one has gone there in the past (20-k max. last crowd) and on one will go there in the future either, that is a loser "trade" if ever there was one. Better racing course, Yes, but who cares when nobody will be there to see it.

-Pay for time TV partner
-Continued Dismal TV ratings
-Seats to the highest bidder

Have to add in that except an over-the-hill Paul Tracy, there is not ONE recognizable name driver to the average joe !!!

-Loss of respect and coverage from those in the Motorsport media

Anybody been reading Phillps and Miller lately ???

-Lack of series promotion
-Lack of driver or team promotion
-No title sponsorship

No comes word that the gIRL series is may ne getting a very strong title sponsor, "Anheuser-Busch and Budweiser beer". CCWS has no title sponsor and frankly no prospects for getting any.

-Low car count
-Teams folding, or leaving the series
-Top sponsors leaving

CDW is the latest sponsor to bail. At best they go to another team (NHL) but the damage is done, RuSport is gonzo.

-Being sued left and right
-Owners at each others throats (almost literally)

Scumbag Paul G. putting X-rated video website and sleazy strip clubs on as sponsers. Count me and my family "out". Just because he likes to go to Spearmint Rhino, it is not (!!!) an acceptable sponser.

-Inept management
-Loss of three cars (at the moment)

Check out RuSport, from 2-car "contender" in 2006 to "gone" in 2008. Conquest, Coyne, how will they be hanging on ??? I see only about 12 cars at most rolling over from this year to 2008.

Furthermore, the gIRL series is now offering a more competitive financial assistance package for teams that compete in the entire series.

Man do I hate those crapwagons, they are ugly, low tech, and although they go 'roundy-roundy' pretty well, they are pigs on a road course. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, the call hasn't already been made and Danica Patrick hasn't been a winner. Don't even start me in with how much I hate Nascab...

Yeah, I know they are selling tickets for the LB GP now, but I wouldn't send them any money unless I didn't plan to not get it back.

The I-500 is the 8,000-lb. gorilla that will drive the other league into success although the other weak sister series events will be dragged along. CCWS has no event to counter the I-500 and that has and will be their ultimate downfall.


I have serious doubts as to whether CC will answer the bell in 2008. Moreover, whether it does or not, I'm pretty sure I don't care.

That said, a couple of points:

1. I'll wait to crown "Mr. EagleEye" as "the most accurate poster on this board" until NHL is proved to be a pack of liars and EE's "sure thing" that NHL is going to the IRL in 2008 is proven right. He harped on and on so sanctimoniously about it and yet I've seen nary a peep from Mr. EagleEye since NHL's unequivocal press release came out a fortnight or so ago.

2. I keep reading vitriolic invective aimed at Gentilozzi regarding these immoral influences like strip clubs and porno films he has brought into the series. I must not be paying attention because I have no idea what anyone is talking about here. Are they sponsors? If you're going to attack the man, at least use the plentiful material that is well known, and don't bother digging around for other stuff.

[BrentJackson]

Hey Sanguin, you gonna come defend your bosses or what?

They are in really sad shapoe, and this series needs to get its act together RIGHT FREAKING NOW.

[beachbum]

As pessimistic as I am about the current state of affairs at Champ Car, I still think it is likely it will answer the bell for 2008. The amigos are so arrogant they may never admit defeat and will do anything to drag it on for as long as they have a place to play. However, the big question is in what form and for how long. If the fall continues as it has and a few teams depart, most promoters will want nothing to do with them, in the US or anywhere else. They may be stuck with a few cars and the events they control themselves until sanity sinks in. Until then, it has devolved into a fancy club race for a couple teams owned by a few rich guys to race among themselves for bragging rights. No one else seems to care.

Of course, Monday morning I expect the usual cheerleaders to jump in and tell us about the wonderful future CC has and how it will rise from the current ashes. It ain't no Phoenix. The only things flying around CC headquarters are a few buzzards waiting to pick at the carcass.

[SoCalPVguy]

More bad news... AR1 is rumouring that Champ Car has delayed their 2008 race schedule originally slated to be issued mid-October but now is likely to come out is maybe by mid-November. The later is goes, the more likely it is to be much reduced or non-existant.

BTW is the CCWS season over, oh wait we're still in the 6-week break between events, forget the press, even I have forgotten about it...

Mr. 994... hey, you're a great poster too (I admired Greg Moore also). It is a fact that CCWS considered a team sponsorship by Adult Video News (AVN). Take a look at their website... Link:
Warning Not Safe For Work if you follow any of their sublinks...

Also it is also a fact that PG had Spearmint Rhino strip clubs logos on the side pods for the Europe races but took them off under protest from either Pettit or maybe KK. AR1 had a picture up for a while but it was so embarrassng that CCWS asked them to take it down. See link to Spearmint Rhino website (definately not safe for work !!!)


As you can see, neither of these entities are sponsors that IMHO should be associated w/ CCWS and it is my understanding both were being pushed by PG.

[Rogelio]

Likewise, I am a little pessimistic about the 2008 season. However, I believe that Champ Car will run a "full season." How the season/events unfold, is certainly questionable. Even Miller and Philips have not conceeded that the 2008 season will not take place. There are still venues that generate money and that is one reason alone as to why CCWS will begin the season.

Champ Car can survive without the Indy 500. These next few months will determine the future of Champ Car. If Champ Car were folding, why is KK looking at Germany and Dubai as possible racetracks?

I am going to hang in there until the bitter end. Arguing that the IRL is better off is far short from the truth. They are certainly doing better than CC, but that is nothing to be proud of.

[McLeagle]

Hello all, time for me to pipe in again.

So, SoCalPVguy, you think CC is not long for this world. You may be right; I won't argue that point. But I find your reasoning flawed. You start by listing many reasons for CC's demise:


-Pay for time TV partner
-Continued Dismal TV ratings
-Seats to the highest bidder
-Loss of respect and coverage from those in the Motorsport media
-Lack of series promotion
-Lack of driver or team promotion
-No title sponsorship
-Low car count
-Teams folding, or leaving the series
-Top sponsors leaving
-Being sued left and right
-Owners at each others throats (almost literally)
-Inept management
-Loss of three cars (at the moment)

Now let us say CC somehow got their act together and rectified these problems - but according to you...


CCWS has no event to counter the I-500 and that has and will be their ultimate downfall.

...it won't matter.

In other words, the first 90% of your post is just a rant, because, you say, the lack of a 500 counterpart will kill them regardless.

Frankly, I believe that a well-managed series without that 500 is perfectly viable. What will be (and is) CC's undoing, is lack of said management. All those other reasons you enumerate are simply consequences of the inept management you speak of - or more precisely, IMHO, the non-existent management.

If there was truly some merit to the argument that the 500 is so vitally important, CART would have imploded long before it did, and CCWS would have been stillborn -- AND, the IRL would have been a roaring success almost right out of the gate.

In fact, the IRL has little if any success to show for itself, what with having the 500 and the paying TV deal and the dozen years of Anton tossing hundreds of millions at it and, more recently, the heavy-hitter teams. You mention CC's poor car count - well what about IRL's? 18 full-timers this past season; not very impressive. And the vaunted 500 itself struggles to get the infamous 33; the last few years have seen upwards of a dozen entrants that have no business being on the track. This should be a pretty clear indication that the 500 is not what will make or break a series. Proper management is the bottom line here. Unfortunately, neither series is endowed with it. That Anton has to offer "appearance" money to bribe teams to join up is proof enough that IRL is not healthy.

If Anton had ever got his head out of his behind, and woken up and smelled the coffee, CART/CCWS would have been long gone. Conversely, if the CART powers that were had not been ignorant and greedy, the 500 might have been back on the CART schedule. Even now, if the OWRS owners realized you have to spend money to make money, and had actually done it, the series could be thriving - to wit:

- had they signed Allmendinger (the $3 million would have been a "cheap" investment)
- had they kept Nelson (he had built up a fan following)
- ditto Timo Glock the year before (Rookie of the Year, no less)
- had they kept Ranger (he won a Championship in Canadian Cabs this year!)
- had they "subsidized" 2nd cars for RuSport, Rocketsports and Conquest (that would have made 20)
- had they "subsidized" Polestar or Gelles or Hylton (24-26 cars on the grid!!)
- had they put up decent race purses and points fund (the "subsidies")
- had they invested to keep Denver (and forgot about China)
- had they even thought about getting proper promotion and PR people - who might then have secured enough sponsorship to cover the costs of the above -- with 24 car grids, they would have had something to sell!!!!!

Now, if NHL does defect to IRL, you can turn out the lights on CC; for sure. I'm just not convinced they're leaving (Eagle Eye notwithstanding); they might be making contingency plans for a CCWS no-show, but if the series survives, I think they'll be there.

And (first I've heard of it), if Bud does title sponsor IRL and does it to the nines, CC could be in a world of hurt - but again, I see no evidence of that coming to pass.

I believe KK and gang will give it at least one more shot. They will answer the bell for 2008. Problem is, they're looking at Europe to try to save an American series; and, to me at least, that's the equivalent of pizzing into the wind. If they don't wake up and smell the coffee, 2008 will be the curtain call.

Cheers.

edit --- SoCalPVguy, you could consider losing all those font tags that do nothing; just a thought...

[mark123]

Man do I hate those crapwagons, they are ugly, low tech, and although they go 'roundy-roundy' pretty well, they are pigs on a road course. I am shocked, shocked I tell you, the call hasn't already been made and Danica Patrick hasn't been a winner. Don't even start me in with how much I hate Nascab...

[/size][/font]

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.

I think that keeping the costs down is probably more important then been at the cutting edge of technology - particularly when you have no manufacturers in CC. Manufacturers will be the only ones to finance R&D in motorsport so for a series that has no manufacturers....????

[Cart750hp]

Hello all, time for me to pipe in again.

Well, look who's back?

I'd also like to pipe in, but....I've said enough about CC.

Good you back, McL.

[SoCalPVguy]

hello Mr. McLeagal, than you for your response. Well, it IS a pretty long list of "problems", do you really think they can all be fixed by next year ? Or can they all be fixed at all ?

I am afraid that, yes, long-term, the lack of the Indy 500 will ultimatley allow the gIRL to at least continue to exist even with CCWS continuing (thus prolonging the 'split' and exacerbating the current problems such as lack of sponsorship, confused viewers and press coverage) or prosper, especially if CCWS does not continue.

[heelntoe]

hello Mr. McLeagal, than you for your response. Well, it IS a pretty long list of "problems", do you really think they can all be fixed by next year ? Or can they all be fixed at all ?

I am afraid that, yes, long-term, the lack of the Indy 500 will ultimatley allow the gIRL to at least continue to exist even with CCWS continuing (thus prolonging the 'split' and exacerbating the current problems such as lack of sponsorship, confused viewers and press coverage) or prosper, especially if CCWS does not continue.

Glad to have you back too McL...though I'm siding with EEye on NHL taking a walk as I'm pretty certain PN's hanging it up after this season. As far as the I500 and CCWS not surviving without it, I think it's more about the fact that securing sponsorship even when you have the 500 and can announce your schedule on time, is getting more difficult by the year and thus far, no one has been able to truly counter that issue. KK, despite his own blather and the kool-aid drinkers beliefs, cannot fund a failing business model forever either. So really, there are issues here that clearly hit the management side as all have agreed, but haven't hit the larger problems connected to money. Europe is definitely NOT the answer because the series getting sanction fees for a year or two does not help the teams find sponsors that will spend enough to make them solvent. The recent A1GP/Ferrari deal is also a major stumbling block abroad because it won't take long for David Clare to go after more races and run not just in the off season. Notwithstanding the fact that tracks over there have already been booked for next season and CCWS is in no position to upend anyone at this juncture, especially when they're holding their hand out just to enter a dialogue. Finally, if KK/GF are going to call it a day, they'll have to figure a pretty clever way to get the best value out of the assets they purchased that were supposed to "cement" CCWS in racing for many years to come...IMO

[mike15]

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

[pvtjoker]

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.




Lets see...the series cancels 3 races this year, teams are switching drivers at breakneck pace from week-to-week, KK's going to court next week and the scheduled is being delayed for at least another month. Yep, you're right, just alot of doom and gloom talk for no good reason.

[Leadfoot]

Also it is also a fact that PG had Spearmint Rhino strip clubs logos on the side pods for the Europe races but took them off under protest from either Pettit or maybe KK. AR1 had a picture up for a while but it was so embarrassng that CCWS asked them to take it down. See link to Spearmint Rhino website (definately not safe for work !!!)

As you can see, neither of these entities are sponsors that IMHO should be associated w/ CCWS and it is my understanding both were being pushed by PG.


I believe it was Larry Flynt's Hustler clubs on the side pods. If I recall the photo correctly, it was a beaver or some such creature, in top hat, tails and a walking stick as the logo.

[heelntoe]

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

LOL!!! Nearly spit my coffee all over the keyboard...definitely one of the funniest posts of the last six months, or at least since Sanguin joined :) Who's the sponsor Preparation H...to cure the redness and swelling all over the place :) ...too funny

[seppefan]

Mike 15

25 days and counting....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

Mike buddy, you are either the most optimistic fella in the world, or completely missing what happened this year.

The fact is that SoCal there wouldn't get me to take his bet, because while I agree that Champ Car will take the bell, I wouldn't want to stake my money on it. Maybe your money, but not MY money.

I think if Champ Car was run professionally, competentantly and had money spent THIS last year on putting more teams on the grid and retaining name drivers, coupled with a schedule and better choices in their promotors, they would have a chance. This last year was the acid test I think. If they had grown this last year, they would turn the corner. In any business venture, if its the third and fourth years that often are the points where the business either leaps forward, or dies. We are watching death, unless new sugar daddies show up and plough money into this. The sad thing is, KK and the Amigo's made good moves in the first few years, and did a good thing putting the Panoz on the grid THIS year. Then they quit on this series. They quit on their fans, they just quit on themselves.

Oh sure, a few of you are saying, "but they are getting events in Europe, they are going back to Laguna Seca..." and to this I say, they are trying to milk a couple of cows before selling the milk and walking away. When they allowed Ranger to walk, when they did nothing to address the lack of entries, and when they have not indicated any new teams are buying cars, that says VOLUMES about the business model and where it is going. They have done no real solid promotion, their webpage has been often out of date, their promoting partners have been half hearted in their web sites and selling of tickets, and there has been just no buzz. Couple that with the childish antics of booting Robin Miller from his hard card status and their general lack of media presence,and the worst TV coverage for the series in YEARS (no one needs to hear my complaints about lack of TV quality)and this series is just committing suicide. There was no reason for it.

SoCal guy, you are pretty much right on the money, and you come from a similar viewpoint to me...a fan who is frustrated and hurt by the lack of professionalism and marketing savvy by this series....

[mikeearle]

LOL!!! Nearly spit my coffee all over the keyboard...definitely one of the funniest posts of the last six months, or at least since Sanguin joined :) Who's the sponsor Preparation H...to cure the redness and swelling all over the place :) ...too funny

I think one of the few possible saving graces could come in the form of long term deals for race venues. CC needs to out there now (in light of the deplyed schedule announcement) cementing deals for the 08 calander and ensuring that these deals also cement the 09 list. this way CC can announce the 08 lineup (albeit late) and also say right away that this is the schedule for 09, then we may have a chance to lure new sponsors in based on the very early announcement of the 09 calander. the teams and the series can plan well into 09 right now, and that is beneficial in all regards. Not too sure of CC would see thsi far ahead but if I were out there negotiating new events for 08, part of that discussion would have to be about the committment and date for 09 so that it can be announced right away so everyone can plan. Hey if you are having the discussion with a promoter or city, spend 5 more minutes discussing the following year and confirmed date right now. My 2 cents.

[indycool]

That is a good idea, Mike, but when you're up to your butt in alligators, it's hard to remember that your original objective was to drain the swamp.

CC is in a tough position to talk about '08, much less about '09. It's had three canceled races in '07 and I'm sure there were contracts in place for those, so what is a CC contract worth? Then there's San Jose as a "model" for a tough sell for street races.

IMO, '08 is the most difficult schedule CC has ever had to put together...virtually all of the outside promoters have issues.

[Turn-In]

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.

I think that keeping the costs down is probably more important then been at the cutting edge of technology - particularly when you have no manufacturers in CC. Manufacturers will be the only ones to finance R&D in motorsport so for a series that has no manufacturers....????




Lets not forget that a qualifying lap and race weekend is a LOT different than one guy testing out there by himself not trying to beat anyone and NOT trying to crash

[weeflyonthewall]

Alright.....sanguin, weefly, sandfly.....what say you?

Has wisdom left the room again? CHRYSLER IS STILL ALIVE!! This thread reminds me of the circling vultures threads back in 2002-03. All the talk about road kill and yet to see the carcass.

[mike15]

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

[ChaimWitz]

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.

I think that keeping the costs down is probably more important then been at the cutting edge of technology - particularly when you have no manufacturers in CC. Manufacturers will be the only ones to finance R&D in motorsport so for a series that has no manufacturers....????

mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?

[ChaimWitz]

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

mike15, you have an interesting perspective on things. I have a question for you: just why did Champ Car lose these venues in 2007? Did it have anything at all to do with their lack of commercial viability? IMO, more current races look certain to follow them into oblivion in 2008. As for free tickets, they were plentiful in Vegas last April for the Champ Car season opener. On the subject of the "free" tickets in the IRL, it does seem that someone usually pays for these "free" IRL tickets before they are given away. This is the way it has been done since the heyday of CART. I guess that was okay then but its not okay now, eh?

[tbyars]

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

First of all, PLEASE don't try to fool yourself into thinking there is one iota fewer free tickets in CCWS than in the ICS. There is empherical evidence all over the place to support that position.

If your premise was correct, then why isn't the CCWS attendance parlaying itself into better TV veiwership? While you may try to minimize this, the TV viewership is where the sponsors, who make it possible to actually race, get a return on their investment.

With no new sponsors announced, and no real opportunity to get sponsors right now because there is no schedule (and won't be for at least another month) just exactly where is the money coming from to put new teams on the grid? Where are the orders for new DP-01s for next year?

I think the crux of your post is the comment that if CCWS goes under, then there is no alternative for you. With that being the case, then there is absolutely no harm in you casting an eye to the situation that defies logic.

The split was not going to continue forever. Whatever way it ended, there were fans that were going to be lost on one side or the other. It's a shame, really, that if CCWS goes under, your have taken the stance you have. Because, the fact is, that if CCWS does go under, regardless of your imagination, American Open Wheel will indeed continue.

[cy bais]

It seems that whenever that SJ speaks and projects a date of sorts, the 2008 Schedule being the latest, it always misses the mark. Wonder if he sold dodgy used-cars back in the day. :)

[pits4me]

mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

[sanguin]

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.

Yes, the paying fans will be the support of the series,just as ALMS counts on it. They also buy tv time and and have bad ratings. It's about the fan support.

[mark123]

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

my initial point is that the IRL car is not a pig on the road course, even though its giving up a lot of HP to the CC. The IRL is now a spec series, basically running de-tuned Honda engines to extend the mileage between rebuilds. the course configuration at Mid Ohio was very similar, and the one mile oval was the obviously the same for both series.

It is not a scientific comparison - but it is interesting.

[gofastandwynn]

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

Um, he is using lap times, not average speed...track measurement has nothing to do with it...

[Rogelio]

Of the three canceled races this year, the only 'real' cancellation was Phoenix. Denver was not going to happen from the start of the season. China, just like South Korea never got off the ground. Personally, the cancellation of the Chinese race was somewhat insignificant. Also, are we that concerned about the Chinese market? In the future, China may be a great place to be, but not at the current time.

On the other hand, the Phoenix cancellation sent shockwaves throughout the Champ Car community. I was looking forward to attending the Phoenix race. It would have been a great time to race because no other major series is racing during this time.

Surely, the cancellation of any race is bad for any series and even more detrimental to our series because of its current state. I was at the Vegas race this year and the race has a lot of potential. It would be sad for this event to end. The race needs to be held on another day other than Easter. There was a lot of excitement in the air and if the race is promoted well, it could easily be another Long Beach. Who does not want to be in Vegas for a race?

[ChaimWitz]

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.

pits4me, you are right that the IRL and Champ Car use different methods for calculating lap lengths which results in a difference in average speeds if the the lap times are identical. What does not change, however, is the lap time itself, since both series obviously use the same measure of time, and the start finish line doesn't move! Lap time Vs. lap time is where you can compare the relative perfomance of the two types of cars. At some places, the Champ Cars are clearly faster due to the HP, push-to-pass (and the fact that the Dallaras are so dammed ugly). I posted the Milwaukee and Mid-Ohio times since it surprised me when the comparison was mentioned somewhere else on these boards.

[FerrrariF1]

Of course, Monday morning I expect the usual cheerleaders to jump in and tell us about the wonderful future CC has and how it will rise from the current ashes. It ain't no Phoenix. The only things flying around CC headquarters are a few buzzards waiting to pick at the carcass.

I stopped by the Champcar headquarters today to pickup some papers....didn't see one buzzard flying around (unless you consider a well known IRL owner along with someone else with him I saw in the lobby waiting for a meeting today buzzards)

[FerrrariF1]

[quote="mark123"]I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.
quote]

Please give all the facts...Mid Ohio has since been repaved which lead to the quicker times also. The repaved track was worth several seconds. Put a new DP01 on that course and it would be quite a bit faster than the Lola that ran in 1996

[FerrrariF1]

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.


Funny how all the D&Gers have free rein here on the Champcar board yet if the same happens on the IRL board warnings are sent. Appears that there are two sets of rules by the moderators. Just expressing my personal opionion.

[aliveon2legs]

I read that the 2007 irl car was pretty close to the times set by the 2006 champcar at mid ohio? so given the IRL car is 100 - 150 hp down on the CC - they are hardly pigs on the road course.
quote]

The repaved track was worth several seconds.Several seconds? lol

[994ever]

Because, the fact is, that if CCWS does go under, regardless of your imagination, American Open Wheel will indeed continue.

You forgot the words "to suck" at the end of that sentence.

[994ever]

Funny how all the D&Gers have free rein here on the Champcar board yet if the same happens on the IRL board warnings are sent. Appears that there are two sets of rules by the moderators. Just expressing my personal opionion.

I wish there actually WAS a double standard on these boards, and that involved the banning of annoying codswallop like this.

[FerrrariF1]

mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?


Well the last time Champcar raced at Mid Ohio they did not have push to pass. The fastest official times by Champcar in Mid Ohio happened in 2000 when the pole speed was timed at 1:05:347 and fastest race lap I beleive was 2001 at 1:07:669.

I think Walker Racing did some testing in Mid Ohio this year and wonder if they posted any times

And don't forget a repaved track.

[ChaimWitz]

Well the last time Champcar raced at Mid Ohio they did not have push to pass. The fastest official times by Champcar in Mid Ohio happened in 2000 when the pole speed was timed at 1:05:347 and fastest race lap I beleive was 2001 at 1:07:669.

I think Walker Racing did some testing in Mid Ohio this year and wonder if they posted any times

And don't forget a repaved track.

I saw all those old times too. The CART cars of that "Turn of the Century" era were simply amazing in their HP and development. Sorry, I forgot P2P didn't exist in 2003. Regardless, the lap times are very close and frankly, a one-two second difference in lap times is not obvious to most fans. I have a feeling that we are all hardcore traditional purists on this forum with a bit of an elitist leaning so we tend to think that a Champ Car being faster than an IRL car is the end-all-beat-all but the market seems to be telling us "who cares?". As for the Walker test, I would be curious to see the times.

[indycool]

Rogelio, I agree with your REALITY thinkin'. I think most on this board figured China to be a coin toss and knew there were some problems in Denver. But I'm the opposite of you on Phoenix. After all the money the promoter blew on Vegas, then the ticket "callback," I figured Phoenix was probably history. But all three races were ANNOUNCED on the CC schedule.

[sanguin]

Hello all, time for me to pipe in again.

So, SoCalPVguy, you think CC is not long for this world. But I find your reasoning flawed. You start by listing many reasons for CC's demise:


Now let us say CC somehow got their act together and rectified these problems - but according to you...



...it won't matter.

In other words, the first 90% of your post is just a rant, because, you say, the lack of a 500 counterpart will kill them regardless.

Frankly, I believe that a well-managed series without that 500 is perfectly viable. What will be (and is) CC's undoing, is lack of said management. All those other reasons you enumerate are simply consequences of the inept management you speak of - or more precisely, IMHO, the non-existent management.

If there was truly some merit to the argument that the 500 is so vitally important, CART would have imploded long before it did, and CCWS would have been stillborn -- AND, the IRL would have been a roaring success almost right out of the gate.

In fact, the IRL has little if any success to show for itself, what with having the 500 and the paying TV deal and the dozen years of Anton tossing hundreds of millions at it and, more recently, the heavy-hitter teams. You mention CC's poor car count - well what about IRL's? 18 full-timers this past season; not very impressive. And the vaunted 500 itself struggles to get the infamous 33; the last few years have seen upwards of a dozen entrants that have no business being on the track. This should be a pretty clear indication that the 500 is not what will make or break a series. Proper management is the bottom line here. Unfortunately, neither series is endowed with it. That Anton has to offer "appearance" money to bribe teams to join up is proof enough that IRL is not healthy.


I agree, after 12 years ratings and attendance are stagnant.

[sanguin]

I stopped by the Champcar headquarters today to pickup some papers....didn't see one buzzard flying around (unless you consider a well known IRL owner along with someone else with him I saw in the lobby waiting for a meeting today buzzards)

really? thanks

[blackfox]

I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and just enjoy the next two races. After that it up to the four investors if this game is still worth playing.

[mike15]

First of all, PLEASE don't try to fool yourself into thinking there is one iota fewer free tickets in CCWS than in the ICS. There is empherical evidence all over the place to support that position.
.

35,000 free tickets at Mid-Ohio, It may have been a Honda promotion or after all the disapointment it was money spent just to save face at Honda's home course.


If your premise was correct, then why isn't the CCWS attendance parlaying itself into better TV veiwership? While you may try to minimize this, the TV viewership is where the sponsors, who make it possible to actually race, get a return on their investment.
.

The worlds biggest sport, Soccer, does poorly on American TV along with the NHL so why do those sports exist in America? According to you if it does poorly on TV then it's not worth while.


With no new sponsors announced, and no real opportunity to get sponsors right now because there is no schedule (and won't be for at least another month) just exactly where is the money coming from to put new teams on the grid? Where are the orders for new DP-01s for next year?

Your favorite entertainment, TV, often sells programs to sponsors without seeing the first episode. Schedule is important but selling the team is number one. Do you believe NHL waits for the schedule to come out before they try to get sponsors? New teams will come from Europe because Europeans are not bogged down by Indy and the split like NASCAR America.
As for the DP01 in 2008 there will be new DP01 and 2007 DP01's available. So there will be a choice like the new and old Lola's


I think the crux of your post is the comment that if CCWS goes under, then there is no alternative for you. With that being the case, then there is absolutely no harm in you casting an eye to the situation that defies logic.
.

The logic is, the IRL has proved that there was no need to start a new series. In 12 or is it 13 years it is still a second rate series and not worth the time.



The split was not going to continue forever. Whatever way it ended, there were fans that were going to be lost on one side or the other. It's a shame, really, that if CCWS goes under, your have taken the stance you have. Because, the fact is, that if CCWS does go under, regardless of your imagination, American Open Wheel will indeed continue.

Ringling Brothers still has a circus but fewer and fewer families attend every year. But we all have fond memories of the Greatest Show On Earth.

[Rogelio]

The I-500 is the 8,000-lb. gorilla that will drive the other league into success although the other weak sister series events will be dragged along. CCWS has no event to counter the I-500 and that has and will be their ultimate downfall. [/font][/size]


Are you referring to the IRL's Indy 500 as the 8,000-lb gorilla? How much stronger (financially) are they than Champ Car? I am sure that they are better off, but is that something to be proud of? They have had the I-500 since 1996 and the series still struggles with respectability. Their championship driver is heading to NASCAB, wow, the series has a lot to be proud of. Sam Hornish is looking in the same direction.

Surely, the current state of affairs dictate that the IRL is better off. Their races are attended by sparse crowds. The only thing the series has going for it is Honda money and a great television package. Yea, it would be nice if Champ Car had those benefits.

Champ Car can survive without the I-500. We just need get our house in order. NASCAB has more fans at Indy than the IRL.

[gofastandwynn]

I stopped by the Champcar headquarters today to pickup some papers....didn't see one buzzard flying around (unless you consider a well known IRL owner along with someone else with him I saw in the lobby waiting for a meeting today buzzards)

And who was that, I mean since you were there and all...

[gofastandwynn]

35,000 free tickets at Mid-Ohio, It may have been a Honda promotion or after all the disapointment it was money spent just to save face at Honda's home course.


CCF dosen't count as a source...

[BrentJackson]

Just the typical doom and gloom from fence sitters and IRL lovers.

For 2008 the promoters will be strong and the schedule will be set with long term goals and dates. There will be more teams with solid sponsors. The key to the 2008 season will be the series presenting sponsor that will be announced before Mexico. It will be a dual sponsor targeting both North America and Europe.

Dual sponsor targeting North America and Europe. Sponsoring for real money a series in this shape? Mike, I know you are a CC backer, but you're flippin' drunk if you think that CC will find a title sponsor by trying to shoot the gap between the two continents. It's not gonna happen.

I will reiterate. Europe is a WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY FOR CCWS. Yes, Assen was a success, but that was a stupidly easy one to do. Zolder didn't work terribly well, did it? And for the teams in CCWS, are they likely to get psonsors based on 3-4 Euro rounds? Not likely. And unfortunately, those rounds drive off what few NA sponsors we have left.

The heck with Assen and Zolder. In a few years when this series is back on its feet, then consider Europe. Until then, North America is the future.

PERIOD.

[mike15]

Dual sponsor targeting North America and Europe. Sponsoring for real money a series in this shape? Mike, I know you are a CC backer, but you're flippin' drunk if you think that CC will find a title sponsor by trying to shoot the gap between the two continents. It's not gonna happen.

I will reiterate. Europe is a WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY FOR CCWS. Yes, Assen was a success, but that was a stupidly easy one to do. Zolder didn't work terribly well, did it? And for the teams in CCWS, are they likely to get psonsors based on 3-4 Euro rounds? Not likely. And unfortunately, those rounds drive off what few NA sponsors we have left.

The heck with Assen and Zolder. In a few years when this series is back on its feet, then consider Europe. Until then, North America is the future.

PERIOD.
Brent as usual we disagree.
NASCAR America dominates the racing dollar.
Champ Car should and will take the opportunity to expand into the world market. Rather than take what is left after NASCAR America drains the racing dollar and battling the confusing split thing, Champ Car can solicit foreign money that does not care about NASCAR or the split. With foreign sponsors Champ Car can stabilize the North American market and give the foreign sponsors the opportunity to promote in North America.

The WORLD in Champ Car World Series is exactly what is needed to boost the bottom line for Champ Car.

Zolder worked well even with the high ticket prices. The high ticket price was the number one problem with attendance. In 2008 Zolder should spread the ticket price so more race fans can attend.

The goal of Champ Car is to have 50% of it's races in North America and 50% in the world. With NASCAR America dominating the USA, Champ Car needs to capture the world racing dollar that has been opened up by F1. The F1 venues are in constant flux going after the high dollar. They are dropping venues that can no longer afford F1 and Champ Car can come in and make those venues profitable. The World is a win win for Champ Car because as I said race fans in Europe don't care about the split or NASCAR. Plus, they support their home town teams and drivers.

[garyshell]

mark123, you bring up an interesting comparison:

Mid-Ohio
2003 Champ Car Pole: 1:07.058 secs, P. Tracy, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 1:06:8375 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2003 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 1:08.366 secs, J. Vasser, Reynard Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap : 1:08.00 secs, D. Franchitti, Dallara Honda

Milwaukee Mile
2006 Champ Car Pole: 21.182 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Pole: 21.3596 secs, H. Castroneves, Dallara Honda
2006 Champ Car Fast Race Lap: 22.285 secs, S. Bourdais, Lola Ford
2007 Indy Car Fast Race Lap: 22.2017 secs, D. Wheldon, Dallara Honda

No push-to-pass and less HP but the times are virtually identical. It does make you think, doesn't it?


With the MidOhio numbers it does make me think. It makes me think you don't have a clue. MidOhio had a major repavement job done between 2003 and 2007. The numbers are meaningless.

And with Milwaukee, hmmm let's see with all the extra downforce and 100% throttle, no need to lift for the corners, you'd think the IRL times would be even bettter wouldn't you? I would.

Gary

[garyshell]

You might want to check the track distance ChaimWitz. The IRL uses a different method than Champ Car.


I know that's true of the ovals. I think for MidOhio they both used the same distance. Did they use the kink before the keyhole?

Gary

[Rogelio]

Brent as usual we disagree.
NASCAR America dominates the racing dollar.
Champ Car should and will take the opportunity to expand into the world market. Rather than take what is left after NASCAR America drains the racing dollar and battling the confusing split thing, Champ Car can solicit foreign money that does not care about NASCAR or the split. With foreign sponsors Champ Car can stabilize the North American market and give the foreign sponsors the opportunity to promote in North America.

The WORLD in Champ Car World Series is exactly what is needed to boost the bottom line for Champ Car.

Zolder worked well even with the high ticket prices. The high ticket price was the number one problem with attendance. In 2008 Zolder should spread the ticket price so more race fans can attend.

The goal of Champ Car is to have 50% of it's races in North America and 50% in the world. With NASCAR America dominating the USA, Champ Car needs to capture the world racing dollar that has been opened up by F1. The F1 venues are in constant flux going after the high dollar. They are dropping venues that can no longer afford F1 and Champ Car can come in and make those venues profitable. The World is a win win for Champ Car because as I said race fans in Europe don't care about the split or NASCAR. Plus, they support their home town teams and drivers.

I agree with most of what you are saying, however, if Champ Car fails at home (U.S.), will it matte what happens overseas? Yes, NASCAR dominates the American market, but that does not mean that there are not companies that are willing to take a risk in CC. I would love to see foreign sponsors strengthen our series so that we can make our current American venues stronger. I am afraid that if we start 'challenging' F1, then will certainly be in trouble.

[garyshell]

Regardless, the lap times are very close and frankly, a one-two second difference in lap times is not obvious to most fans.

Can I get an AMEN, brothers and sisters? I think you can push that number a bit further even. Run them on one day at a given speed, and then a day latter at 4-5 seconds slower and 85-95% of the fans would never know the difference.

Gary

[garyshell]

Champ Car can survive without the I-500.

My hatred for "...king George" and his "vision" is well known here, but if you REALLY believe that quote above... well sorry but you are delusional.

Open wheel sponsorship on any REAL scale revolves around the I500. Period.

I hate the fact that I have to admit that. But I do, and have for a very long time. Just look at the sidepods on the two series and count the number of RECOGNIZABLE names. I am talking names known to your next door neighbor who doesn't follow racing. Which of the two series has the higher count and by what sort of margin? And why do you think that is? Because "...king George" is a brilliant business man, or these sponsors want to be a part of a race in Iowa? No it comes down to one event, remove that event and see how many of these same sponsors remain in the IRL for more than 30 seconds.

Gary

[garyshell]

Mike, I know you are a CC backer, but you're flippin' drunk if you think that CC will find a title sponsor by trying to shoot the gap between the two continents.

UNLESS, they find a company with feet firmly planted on both continents. Someone like Proctor and Gamble who have a huge presence in both places. Not that THAT is going to happen, mind you. Only saying that it is POSSIBLE to find a title sponsor, but the field is narrowed considerably when the two continents are involved like this.

Gary

[beachbum]

Reading some of theses post, the phrase "looking at the world through rose-colored glasses" comes to mind. While being positive and supporting your favorite series is admirable, denying reality doesn't change reality. "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt." seems to fit here.

Keep channeling those positive thoughts. Perhaps a few incantations will help too. Nothing else seems to have worked very well for CC.

[indycool]

Here's the problem with trying to be all things to all people all the time:

Global sponsors are decentralized into different geographic areas. Marlboro Europe might be interested in a European race or two, but it does Marlboro Europe no good to be exposed in Portland. This is what happened to Penske when CART started going outside the U.S. boundaries. Marlboro USA was sponsoring Penske. Surfers, Japan and Canada were "throwaways" that they were paying for anyway.

European sponsors for a few races to drop a Jan Heylen in a seat, then when the money runs out, find a Mario Dominguez with some bucks....sorry.....I just don 't think that's going to get it.

And what "business" does Gommendy hafta conduct that he can't make it to Surfers. "Something's happenin' here and what it is ain't exactly clear".....as the song goes.

[Rogelio]

[quote="garyshell"]My hatred for "...king George" and his "vision" is well known here, but if you REALLY believe that quote above... well sorry but you are delusional.

Open wheel sponsorship on any REAL scale revolves around the I500. Period.

I hate the fact that I have to admit that. But I do, and have for a very long time. Just look at the sidepods on the two series and count the number of RECOGNIZABLE names. I am talking names known to your next door neighbor who doesn't follow racing. Which of the two series has the higher count and by what sort of margin? And why do you think that is? Because "...king George" is a brilliant business man, or these sponsors want to be a part of a race in Iowa? No it comes down to one event, remove that event and see how many of these same sponsors remain in the IRL for more than 30 seconds.
Gary[/qote]


Yes, that one event is important but that does not explain Champ Car's many woes. When CART lost the I-500 they were still a strong racing series without the big race. Unfortuantely, the loss of major teams to the IRL, poor management, then the Amigos have all led Champ Car to its sad state of affairs. NASCAR's race at Indy is more popular than the IRL's race there.

My point is that if CC played its cards right, and it has not, we could overcome the loss of the I-500. We did so in the first years without the race. We should have stuck with Michigan or created another race.

[Colt21]

Paul Newman, co-founder of Newman/Haas Racing and co-owner of Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing…
“We have always been an engineering driven team. We think we have something special to add to the benefit of both. This in no way lessens our commitment to open wheel racing - - - we want to broaden our horizons.”


Is there any reason why Paul Newman did not specifically mention Champcar at the Yates announcement in July. While the Yates deal eventually fell through, I thought the ambiguity of this quote was in stark contrast to his steadfast support of Champcar in the past, and started tongues wagging in Indianapolis.

Just another of many questions.

[djparky]

Here's the problem with trying to be all things to all people all the time:

Global sponsors are decentralized into different geographic areas. Marlboro Europe might be interested in a European race or two, but it does Marlboro Europe no good to be exposed in Portland. This is what happened to Penske when CART started going outside the U.S. boundaries. Marlboro USA was sponsoring Penske. Surfers, Japan and Canada were "throwaways" that they were paying for anyway.

European sponsors for a few races to drop a Jan Heylen in a seat, then when the money runs out, find a Mario Dominguez with some bucks....sorry.....I just don 't think that's going to get it.

And what "business" does Gommendy hafta conduct that he can't make it to Surfers. "Something's happenin' here and what it is ain't exactly clear".....as the song goes.

good points IC- the race by race driver merry go round continues once again...in some form or other CCWS will no doubt continue into 2008,

from a fan perspective I no longer bother to watch most of the races- 17 cars with a bunch of drivers that for the most part I care nothing about does very little for me- CCWS reminds me of the last days of F3000 and the old Group C World Sports Car series- both with wonderful histories but a very short future

I'm no fan of Tony George but the IRL now offers more or less what CART did at it's height- and for anyone deluded enough to think otherwise- the ONLY open wheel race that matters in the US is the Indy 500- the NASCAR crowd refer to Dario F, JV and JPM as former Indy 500 champions (or F1 champion in JV's case) but not CART/ IRL champions

I can't remember who posted it but there was a time when I always watched CART on a Sunday evening- never missed a race (unless Eurosport screwed up)- nowadays I only watch it occasionally and only then if it doesn't clash with NASCAR on NASN

[mark123]

With the MidOhio numbers it does make me think. It makes me think you don't have a clue. MidOhio had a major repavement job done between 2003 and 2007. The numbers are meaningless.

And with Milwaukee, hmmm let's see with all the extra downforce and 100% throttle, no need to lift for the corners, you'd think the IRL times would be even bettter wouldn't you? I would.

Gary

Gary - I accept that this is not a 100% accurate comparison. I was simply correcting someone else in here that said that the current IRL car is "a pig" on road courses. The repave would be worth 2 - 3 seconds, but no more. And I would like to add that they are a spec series running detuned Honda motors - they would give up at least 100hp to the champcars. so, they are far from Pigs.

Re Milwaukee, are you suggesting that the IRL cars stay at 100% flat on the gas for the whole lap. I would have thought that they lifted on the corners and downshift. Lets not forget, Ovals are what the car was designed for, so its pointless to criticise them for it.

[sanguin]

My hatred for "...king George" and his "vision" is well known here, but if you REALLY believe that quote above... well sorry but you are delusional.

Open wheel sponsorship on any REAL scale revolves around the I500. Period.

I hate the fact that I have to admit that. But I do, and have for a very long time. Just look at the sidepods on the two series and count the number of RECOGNIZABLE names. I am talking names known to your next door neighbor who doesn't follow racing. Which of the two series has the higher count and by what sort of margin? And why do you think that is? Because "...king George" is a brilliant business man, or these sponsors want to be a part of a race in Iowa? No it comes down to one event, remove that event and see how many of these same sponsors remain in the IRL for more than 30 seconds.

Gary

I disagree,some of those sponsorships are discount honda associates. Motorola has been with MA for a long time and the manage the honda engine. Delphi went BK and is still losing money, they too are associated with Honda as is XM radio.I hear 7-11 is a barter with food service to the honda plants in Japan. 7-11 is huge there. NYSE is rumored to be leaving. Wasn't the subsidy program is put in place now to make up for these shortfalls in sponsorship as the honda money may be going away?

The point that series is not flush with sponsors or they would have more than 18 cars and they would be lined up to get into the 500. That is not the case. The ratings are also falling ,so that doesn't help. They have just as much trouble with sponsorship as CC does.IMO

[tbyars]

Champ Car should and will take the opportunity to expand into the world market. Rather than take what is left after NASCAR America drains the racing dollar and battling the confusing split thing, Champ Car can solicit foreign money that does not care about NASCAR or the split. With foreign sponsors Champ Car can stabilize the North American market and give the foreign sponsors the opportunity to promote in North America.

The WORLD in Champ Car World Series is exactly what is needed to boost the bottom line for Champ Car.

....

The goal of Champ Car is to have 50% of it's races in North America and 50% in the world. With NASCAR America dominating the USA, Champ Car needs to capture the world racing dollar that has been opened up by F1. The F1 venues are in constant flux going after the high dollar. They are dropping venues that can no longer afford F1 and Champ Car can come in and make those venues profitable. The World is a win win for Champ Car because as I said race fans in Europe don't care about the split or NASCAR. Plus, they support their home town teams and drivers.

Mike...tell us a little bit about who these European sponsors are.

If they are interested in open wheel racing, why aren't they already supporting teams in already WELL ESTABLISHED open wheel series in their region?

F1 is not, by a long shot, the only open wheel series in Europe. In fact, I would dare say the competition for sponsorship dollars is far greater in Europe than it is in the US. And F1 is to European sponsorship dollars exactly the same as NASCAR is to US sponsorship dollars. Why would a company sponsor a series with virtually no television, no track record for sustained successful events, and no real fan base when they can sponsor an established, successful open wheel series in Europe?

If these same companies are interested in American exposure, then why, with names that are familiar to European companies, haven't they been sponsors in CCWS in previous years when the majority of their schedule WAS in North America?

I'm sorry. This justs looks to me like one more crazy idea that someone wrote down on a napkin while having a bratwurst sandwich and said to themselves "hey...we haven't tried THIS yet!"

[tbyars]

I hear 7-11 is a barter with food service to the honda plants in Japan. 7-11 is huge there.

Link, please.

[sanguin]

Link, please.

no link, just some inside info. ;)

[beachbum]

no link, just some inside info. ;)
Now that IS funny. Hilarious actually, coming from Mr. "link please" "proof please". You really want us to believe that? The inside of what?

[indycool]

Oh.

[sanguin]

Now that IS funny. Hilarious actually, coming from Mr. "link please" "proof please". You really want us to believe that? The inside of what?

I did say I heard it,you don't have to believe it.

I was told that rumors and "hearing things" are okay as Chaimwitz does.

How much do you think 7-11 is paying for sponsorship?

[indycool]

Probably more than half the CC field's sponsors combined.

[sanguin]

Probably more than half the CC field's sponsors combined.

I would like to believe you, but they are honda's discount sponsor IMO.

[indycool]

IYO.

[pvtjoker]

How much do you think 7-11 is paying for sponsorship?

Probably more than NHL is getting from McDonalds, Hole In The Wall and MediZone combined....talk about "phony sponsors", lets start in CC.

Oh, thats just what I hear. ;)

[tbyars]

no link, just some inside info. ;)

But I thought you were "just a fan." Where does "just a fan" get real inside information?

[nigelred5]

These forums are full of Debbie Downers because that is the easy way out.

You can talk all you want about missed opportunities by letting CC drivers go but I have not seen the other OW series pick up those drivers.

Yep there were canceled races but when you ignore the reasons why they were cancelled, well there is the Debbie Downer direction once again.

If at some point in time Champ Car does fold, as far as I am concerned American Open Wheel Racing is finished and there are NO alternatives.

So with that said I will be backing Champ Car in 2008 and beyond. The 2008 schedule, venues will be added to the positive venues in 2007. Yes there were some poor preforming venues in 2007 and they possible will be eliminated in 2008. But the point of a good schedule is attendance, attendance is what builds venues and not TV ratings or because the venue is a forum favorite.

Yes in 2008 there will be new self sufficient teams and yes there will be drivers with sponsors.

But the bottom line is paid admission is what will build the series. A fan that purchases a ticket to see a race is more likely to stick with the series than a person that was given a free ticket.


I think you would be very very suprised to see how little the paid admission really goes towards the series. You have to build something and then work like hell to convince potential viewers they have something good to watch, or what they are watching is good. The television pakage is downright horrible. At this point, they would be better served to tape delay the races and do some major post production work on the on air product, because their money is a waste of money for what they are getting.

Advertisers and sponsors spend money to get their brand in front of TV viewers first and foremost. NO TV, no sponsorships. Not for the series, not for the races, not for the teams, not for the drivers. You can harp on attendance figures all you want. If you have Zero TV figures, you get ZERO worthwhile sponsorship. You absolutely have to produce a good TV product that is well promoted. I don't care if you have 100k every weekend. NASCAR has that and sometimes double that for EVERY RACE day and there are 38 of them in CUP alone. What sponsors are after is the 10-20 million people at home on race day, and the additional mult- million that watch all the weekly coverage. The people at the track are a bonus.

There is little value in the in-person aspect of the sponsorship deals if there is no television exposure. After all, these companies are spending money to get their product on television during an event. How many of the hundreds if not thousand or so sponsors involved in NASCAR actually promote the rcaing at the track? not even a tenth. They are on the car to be on the TELEVISION. In replays, in driver interviews, in Newspaper nd magazine articles and advertisements. A series that commands no news reports, has no extended pre and post race exposure featuring the teams and their bilboards, I mean cars, and negligible television ratings is doomed to failure or club racing status.

Don't give me any bs about international TV numbers. CCWS is just as pathetic if not more with their international TV deals in important markets.

Who's selling onion gum now??

[sanguin]

What about ALMS ,they have lousy ratings ,there was just an article on SPEED about how they depend on their fans attendance.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40755/

CC has a deal with Eurosport.

[nigelred5]

Of the three canceled races this year, the only 'real' cancellation was Phoenix. Denver was not going to happen from the start of the season. China, just like South Korea never got off the ground. Personally, the cancellation of the Chinese race was somewhat insignificant. Also, are we that concerned about the Chinese market? In the future, China may be a great place to be, but not at the current time.

On the other hand, the Phoenix cancellation sent shockwaves throughout the Champ Car community. I was looking forward to attending the Phoenix race. It would have been a great time to race because no other major series is racing during this time.

Surely, the cancellation of any race is bad for any series and even more detrimental to our series because of its current state. I was at the Vegas race this year and the race has a lot of potential. It would be sad for this event to end. The race needs to be held on another day other than Easter. There was a lot of excitement in the air and if the race is promoted well, it could easily be another Long Beach. Who does not want to be in Vegas for a race?

If a race is published on the schedule prior to the season starting and it is then removed from the schedule, that is a CANCELLATION and it looks horrible, I don't care HOW you spin it. You say the chinese cancellation is insignificant, yet was the Pacific rim not central to their international expansion plans in 5 year plan version 1.0, 2.0, and 3.0?? That cancellation alone makes the series look bush league internationally. With TV outlets, with sponsors, with potential sponsors and with the FIA.
Personally, the series should have paid the freight to make sure the race happened hell or high water at that point.

Who wants to do business with a group that has it's principles as well as the series itself continually involved in contract lawsuits with multiple promotors? I hate to say it, but I wouldn't touch CCWS with a ten foot pole right now. I'd rather burn a $100 bill than spend it on race tickets for a race I'm more than likely never going to see.

[beachbum]

What about ALMS ,they have lousy ratings ,there was just an article on SPEED about how they depend on their fans attendance.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40755/

CC has a deal with Eurosport.Dude, this is the Champ Car forum. Stop dragging other series into the discussion.

[nigelred5]

Can I get an AMEN, brothers and sisters? I think you can push that number a bit further even. Run them on one day at a given speed, and then a day latter at 4-5 seconds slower and 85-95% of the fans would never know the difference.

Gary

Or better yet, just get it the hell over with and put them both on the same damn track at the same time. Both series are in survival mode. I've lobbied for years now, who cares which car is faster. 18+17=35 and no TV/sponsor confusion is ht eonly way either are going to survive with a product that has any relevance to North America.

International survival in my opinion is not survival, it's suicide for 90% of those currently involved in CCWS. It is not going to lure new North american based teams, nor is it going to lure new fans. I also wouldn't underestimate the significance of the A1GP deal wirth Ferrari. The Ferrari name alone commands attention in international racing. Who's going to watch a series no one klnows where the machinery comes from. So CCWS suddenly becomes a threat to GP2, luring European sponsors and TV viewers. Just exactly how long will BE and the FIA put up with that? Even if it is successful, noone here to speak of will care.

[sanguin]

IMO A1GP is not a threat to CC. They have their own problems, canceling races and changing drivers.They are also having sponsor trouble. Besides the fact they run in the winter.

As far as the International series for CC, great idea.

[nigelred5]

I did say I heard it,you don't have to believe it.

I was told that rumors and "hearing things" are okay as Chaimwitz does.

How much do you think 7-11 is paying for sponsorship?

Regardless of how much they spend directly, 7-11 is owned by a Japanese conglomerate and there are obvious reasons there would be ties to Honda. Over 32,000 stores worldwide is nothing to sneeze at. Wouldn't that be better spent on an INTERNATIONAL SERIES with so many stores overseas? Apparently not. How many Sonny's Barbecue( no disrespect to Sonnys- thanks for the involvement) stores are there? I suspect the 7-11 money spent in the IRL and on their related promotional activities, which there were many, is chump change to them. I know my 7-11 still has Indy car paraphernalia all over it and the season is now long over and the closest race is 190 miles from here. The amount they spent on styrofoam cooler sales in the stores is probably three times what Sonny's spent on their CCWS sponsorship. At least their sponsors do activate their deals on a large scale aimed at luring fans to the IRL. Where is that commitment ot champcar by even the glorious CDW sponsorship. No CCWS specific commercials and a full page ad when JW won a race and now poof, gone. Why is that??

[Alexamateo]

IMO A1GP is not a threat to CC. They have their own problems, canceling races and changing drivers.They are also having sponsor trouble. Besides the fact they run in the winter.



Latest News from CCWS:

Greenlight Collectibles to supply Diecast Replicas.

Latest News from A1GP:

Ferrari to supply engines and chassis.

:rolleyes:

[mark123]

Latest News from CCWS:

Greenlight Collectibles to supply Diecast Replicas.

Latest News from A1GP:

Ferrari to supply engines and chassis.

:rolleyes:

Alexamateo - at last someone as put this argument into prespective. even though it was brief - this is the post of the week (maybe the year!!) .

Let the facts speak for them selves - well done, great post!!!

[heelntoe]

IMO A1GP is not a threat to CC. They have their own problems, canceling races and changing drivers.They are also having sponsor trouble. Besides the fact they run in the winter.

As far as the International series for CC, great idea.

A post with this little knowledge should not be allowed to be viewed by intelligent people. David Clare has been given the amunition from Ferrari to bury any idea of CCWs performing or getting sponsors in Europe or any region within the FIA arena...look to A1GP to move out of the winter only schedule and in sync with F-1 (where David Clare worked) eliminating the last great hope of CCWS abroad.

[nigelred5]

IMO A1GP is not a threat to CC. They have their own problems, canceling races and changing drivers.They are also having sponsor trouble. Besides the fact they run in the winter.

As far as the International series for CC, great idea.

The fallacy that they run in only in the winter is just that, a fallacy.
They run exactly three of their 10 races in the Northern hemisphere winter which is of course summer in the venues where they run. Their season runs from September through May, currently an overlap of three months (4 if Phoenix had made it to the green flag) of the 2007 CCWS season in the fall and 2 months in the spring, 3 if the CCWS returns to a March start date as I suspect it may to keep Las Vegas. If you consider that Champcar essentially disappears from the US market for months on end three separate times, their schedule is essentially little different to a fan looking at the very real prospect of no more than 7 US races over a span of 7 months. Not exactly a resounding commitment to the home territory. They are courting the same international sponsors as Champcar is apparently looking at now.

Add to that A1GP has actually run 2 races in China and have two on the current schedule, one on the very track CCWS has been trying to run unsuccessfully. One race in Australia, Champcar's most successful market, with a V8 super car series openly and justly lobbying for a greater piece of the Surfers pie, which I suspect they will be granted. One race in the Netherlands with a strong consistant series presence, in the same basic time frame as CCWS does. A race in Mexico City on the very same track as CCWS has been with token Mexican fan presence and a dwindling crowd. Then they also have a modestly successful street race on a track that was allegedly and unsuccessfully targeted by CCWS in South Africa, and a race at Brands Hatch that was basically a total flop when run by Champcars.

They are a spec series with a revolving driver lineup yes, but they will now be racing Ferraris, and not just any ferrari, but what is essentially going to be a two year old F1 design with a V8 engine expected to produce in the vicinity of 700 hp. A serious threat to Champcar performance and clearly higher than GP2.

Exactly what is Champcar going to be offering that is better or significantly different? An unbranded poorly promoted spec series with no manufacturer support or panache, with a revolving lineup of unknown international drivers, competing for a "world cup", skipping all over the world, with a marginal TV package, little evidence of a true home market and no evidence of sustainable support from outside of the series itself.

They are already a potential threat to champcar in many ways internationally now and should be seen as a future threat to Champcar if they are going to be pursuing so many of the same markets that A1Gp is already in.

Champcar better step up their game in a MAJOR way in very short order as the new kid on the block does not appear to be going away any faster than their 12 year old cross town rival.

[garyshell]

Yes, that one event is important but that does not explain Champ Car's many woes. When CART lost the I-500 they were still a strong racing series without the big race. Unfortunately, the loss of major teams to the IRL, poor management, then the Amigos have all led Champ Car to its sad state of affairs. NASCAR's race at Indy is more popular than the IRL's race there.

My point is that if CC played its cards right, and it has not, we could overcome the loss of the I-500. We did so in the first years without the race. We should have stuck with Michigan or created another race.


I never said it explained ALL the woes. But team and series financing is the biggest of all those woes. Yes, the series was still strong for a couple of years, as existing contracts ran out. But then the advertisers, (remember THEY are the ones who fund this entire effort) ran for the exits with one destination in mind. One destination and one race. No amount of card playing ever could or ever will counter Madison Avenues fascination with the 500. For a long time I hoped against hope that this was not true, but sadly the past five years have proved my hopes false.

If this were not true, please explain how we see recognizable company names on sidepods in IOWA??? The advertisers are not there to advertise in Iowa, trust me.

Gary

[nigelred5]

Alexamateo - at last someone as put this argument into prespective. even though it was brief - this is the post of the week (maybe the year!!) .

Let the facts speak for them selves - well done, great post!!!

Absolutely it does. It speaks to the differences in priorities between the two series. Someone knows what matters and will make a long term difference, and one is worried about a couple hundred diecast car sales. A deal which by the way took what, over a year and a half to finally close.

And now that they have The Ferrari name tied to the series, how long before A1Gp locks up a deal to race on the new racetrack in Dubai, one that champcar is allegedly trying to land and one that has the Ferrari brand intertwined into it at so many levels.

Champcar is being beaten to the punch in almost every place they try to go internationally and domestically. Sponsors, television, manufacturer involvement, international markets. I hear there is a chance they are going to try to rescue those abandoned moon buggies and be the first to race on the Moon. :rolleyes:

[nigelred5]

I stopped by the Champcar headquarters today to pickup some papers....didn't see one buzzard flying around (unless you consider a well known IRL owner along with someone else with him I saw in the lobby waiting for a meeting today buzzards)

That's because the stench eminating from that place lately is enough to even drive a buzzard away. Why keep it a secret who you saw there? If CCWS is in such a strong position as to lure in a well known IRL owner, surely there is no threat to that owner staying in the IRL rather than jumping to CCWS? Or could it be that owner is in fact a vulture circling its carrion.

[nigelred5]

What about ALMS ,they have lousy ratings ,there was just an article on SPEED about how they depend on their fans attendance.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40755/

CC has a deal with Eurosport.


ALMS has the significant involvement and manufacturer support for teams and races to pay the bills. The ALMS also shows clear evidence of knowing what they are and reacting to challenges with positive results and exposure. Audi, Honda, Porsche, Chevrolet, Aston Martin and possibly Pugeot, a manufacturer that doesn't even sell cars in the US. They also spend wisely on their television package rather than paying an arm and a leg to show a race broadcast rarely better than something from the local college access channel.

A deal with Eurosport? Is that the same one I hear constant complaints of schedule changes, truncated or cacelled race coverage and a follow the bouncing schedule change practice? Where's that full season Mexican TV package and The Australian season long package. I hear the loyal Canadian fans were just thrilled with their TV package this year. Going to europe is going to make that better how? How does a team from Indiana benefit from that again? Oh yeah, with sposor that disappears and a driver that is kicked to the curb as soon as that race in his home country has passed.

Sounds like a wonderful plan. Remind me why should I watch that again? What happens when Paul Track realizes that he just isn't that fast any longer and Graham goes to race else where, which he certainly will be.

Remind me what channel I can't see the next two CCWS races on?

[Rogelio]

I never said it explained ALL the woes. But team and series financing is the biggest of all those woes. Yes, the series was still strong for a couple of years, as existing contracts ran out. But then the advertisers, (remember THEY are the ones who fund this entire effort) ran for the exits with one destination in mind. One destination and one race. No amount of card playing ever could or ever will counter Madison Avenues fascination with the 500. For a long time I hoped against hope that this was not true, but sadly the past five years have proved my hopes false.

If this were not true, please explain how we see recognizable company names on sidepods in IOWA??? The advertisers are not there to advertise in Iowa, trust me.

Gary

Yes, I will agree with you that it does not explain all of the series woes. CART and Champ Car's inability to create a "sound product" is what has drove the sponsors away. Yes, the I-500 is important, but had CC played their cards right they would not be in the situation they are in.

Even with the I-500, the IRL is floundering as a series. Recognizable names sit on the sidepods in IOWA because, sadly but truthfully, the series is better off than CC. Yes, the sponsors realize the importance of the big race and in the IRL, the sponsors find 'stability.' Names like Penske, Gnassi, Foyt, and Andretti surely help when attracting sponsorship.

Do the sponsors really care about the split? No, they want their product name on something that sells (NASCAR). Our series is being run by inept and imcompetent Amigos. The I-500 matters because CART/CC has failed to find an alternative to the race.

[cartpix]

But I thought you were "just a fan." Where does "just a fan" get real inside information?

He probably gets it from FerrrariF1, who picks up the papers, while Champ Car is out of town, in Australia.

Jeff

[BrentJackson]

Brent as usual we disagree.

No surprise there.


NASCAR America dominates the racing dollar.

Dominate does not mean completely own, and NASCAR is bloody expensive to run in now, as you should know by now.


Champ Car should and will take the opportunity to expand into the world market. Rather than take what is left after NASCAR America drains the racing dollar and battling the confusing split thing, Champ Car can solicit foreign money that does not care about NASCAR or the split. With foreign sponsors Champ Car can stabilize the North American market and give the foreign sponsors the opportunity to promote in North America.

But short of moving to Europe completely, what will the European sponsors gain? Not much. You continually bring up this point, and I continually remind you that most sponsors on CC's level really don't care about international exposure.


The WORLD in Champ Car World Series is exactly what is needed to boost the bottom line for Champ Car.

No, I think CC should drop the World bit for now. They do not have the resources or support to go globe-hopping, especially if sponsors aren't paying for it. It's a huge waste of time and money for the teams other than the Amigos.


Zolder worked well even with the high ticket prices. The high ticket price was the number one problem with attendance. In 2008 Zolder should spread the ticket price so more race fans can attend.

That gonna happen? I don't bet on it.


The goal of Champ Car is to have 50% of it's races in North America and 50% in the world.

They will be bankrupt long before then because the current crop of CC teams cannot expect to keep globe-hopping. In CC's current shape, it makes zero financial sense.


With NASCAR America dominating the USA, Champ Car needs to capture the world racing dollar that has been opened up by F1. [The F1 venues are in constant flux going after the high dollar.

And this is different form NASCAR in America how exactly?


They are dropping venues that can no longer afford F1 and Champ Car can come in and make those venues profitable. The World is a win win for Champ Car because as I said race fans in Europe don't care about the split or NASCAR. Plus, they support their home town teams and drivers.

America supports its home teams too. CC just doesn't give them jack all to root for. You should know that too.

[pvtjoker]

IMO A1GP is not a threat to CC. They have their own problems, canceling races and changing drivers.They are also having sponsor trouble. Besides the fact they run in the winter.



And this is different from CC in what way????? CC is guilty of everything you mention above, including scheduling races in winter (before they cancelled that race!).

[sanguin]

I never said it explained ALL the woes. But team and series financing is the biggest of all those woes. Yes, the series was still strong for a couple of years, as existing contracts ran out. But then the advertisers, (remember THEY are the ones who fund this entire effort) ran for the exits with one destination in mind. One destination and one race. No amount of card playing ever could or ever will counter Madison Avenues fascination with the 500. For a long time I hoped against hope that this was not true, but sadly the past five years have proved my hopes false.

If this were not true, please explain how we see recognizable company names on sidepods in IOWA??? The advertisers are not there to advertise in Iowa, trust me.

Gary

IMO,They are in Iowa because of ethanol and the track.Ethanol wants them in corn country and the track will pay them. If what you said were true about the 500, there wouldn't be a need for TG to pony up to fill the field and there would be more than 18 cars in the series. The ratings have been falling for 10 years. I'm sure Madison ave. has noticed that too. I highly doubt TG will have the leverage to secure another lucrative tv deal ,especially if his subsidy program doesn't pan out.

[mike15]

America supports its home teams too. CC just doesn't give them jack all to root for. You should know that too.

America only supports the home team when they win and then only if they dominate the event.

You like to blame everything on Champ Car but Champ Car has brought back racing at Road America and Portland and now Laguna. Road America had a pitiful attendance and Portland will probably not make the 2008 schedule because of poor attendance. I'm sure you will make it Champ Cars fault for poor attendance at American venues BUT with Champ Car, the foreign venues do attract great fans to the venues in high numbers.

Now why is it that Champ Car with the same ingredients have better attendance in foreign lands than in America hmmmmm?

America is NahSCAR land and Americans like their racing with big shiny billboards with huge numbers that go round and round. They want to sit back in their seats for 5 hours anticipating the next big crash.

[sanguin]

ALMS has the significant involvement and manufacturer support for teams and races to pay the bills. The ALMS also shows clear evidence of knowing what they are and reacting to challenges with positive results and exposure. Audi, Honda, Porsche, Chevrolet, Aston Martin and possibly Pugeot, a manufacturer that doesn't even sell cars in the US. They also spend wisely on their television package rather than paying an arm and a leg to show a race broadcast rarely better than something from the local college access channel.

The manufacturers pay the bills and they still need an audience to justify it. So you're think a tv pkg between SPEED and CBS is better than CC's on one network? No way. Have you seen the ALMS races on CBS? they are pretaped and cut to fit a time slot. They're awful. CC just got their tv pkg. They haven't had one full year with their new partner yet. Last year some races were still on other networks. They also have atlantics on ABC/ESPN.
The truth is F1 ,ALMS, GA, IRL, CC and other series all have bad ratings. This is not unique to CC at all. Even Nascar is on 2 year low.


A deal with Eurosport? It is a good one and an asset for CC.

IMO

[sanguin]

A post with this little knowledge should not be allowed to be viewed by intelligent people. David Clare has been given the amunition from Ferrari to bury any idea of CCWs performing or getting sponsors in Europe or any region within the FIA arena...look to A1GP to move out of the winter only schedule and in sync with F-1 (where David Clare worked) eliminating the last great hope of CCWS abroad.

DC is trying to bury CC? I thought he was trying to stop the money bleeding from that series. Exactly what ammunition does Ferrari give? They are making money from a deal. This is just a lot of wishful thinking.IMO.

[sanguin]

Regardless of how much they spend directly, 7-11 is owned by a Japanese conglomerate and there are obvious reasons there would be ties to Honda.

The problem is what happens if/when honda leaves for nascar?

[Andrewmcm]

It is a good one and an asset for CC.

IMO

You've never had the pleasure of watching, or at least trying to watch a race on Eurosport, have you? Delays, cutting to races half-way through, cutting if races over-run. You name the things they could do to annoy the fans and they do it - they've even kept with live tennis in preference to CCWS. I think most of the races were on Europsort 2 this year as well. I say I think as I don't have satellite or cable tv and stumped up the money for Race Director. The only good thing about the (international and therefore) Eurosport feed is the commentators - Jeremy Shaw and James Hinchcliffe are great - just a shame those ridiculous banners obscure a lot of the track when in-car.

Eurosport do the bare minimum to have CC on their network. They spend a lot more time advertising the WTCC, in much the same way as Sky TV (UK satellite) plug A1GP and (to a lesser extent) the IRL.

[nigelred5]

The problem is what happens if/when honda leaves for nascar?
Where is the evidence that Honda is going to the IRL? Marc C's infamous spy photo?? What benefit is there to Honda joining NASCAR? Honda does not believe in V8 power in it's on road products, their trucks are not very popular in their curent configuration, and they don't need NASCAR to sell Accords. They shoot for a totally different demographic than Toyota and have a totally different image than Toyota IMHO.

Toyota is trying to prove to Americans that it is an American company. Toyota is also historically very insecure for being such a powerful company. Toyota is in racing strictly for marketing. Honda historically has done it for the engineering exercise. Granted the IRL doesn't exactly fit that bill at this time, but they get their mileage out of the 500 none the less. I don't see that insecurity from Honda. They build cars in this country because it makes financial sense.

The rumoured deal for series sponsorship by Budweiser and the new revenue sharing plan will go a long way to that end, but the discussion is actually about Champcar, not the IRL.

[sanguin]

Where is the evidence that Honda is going to the IRL? Marc C's infamous spy photo?? What benefit is there to Honda joining NASCAR? Honda does not believe in V8 power in it's on road products, their trucks are not very popular in their curent configuration, and they don't need NASCAR to sell Accords. They shoot for a totally different demographic than Toyota and have a totally different image than Toyota IMHO.

Toyota is trying to prove to Americans that it is an American company. Toyota is also historically very insecure for being such a powerful company. Toyota is in racing strictly for marketing. Honda historically has done it for the engineering exercise. Granted the IRL doesn't exactly fit that bill at this time, but they get their mileage out of the 500 none the less. I don't see that insecurity from Honda. They build cars in this country because it makes financial sense.

The rumoured deal for series sponsorship by Budweiser and the new revenue sharing plan will go a long way to that end, but the discussion is actually about Champcar, not the IRL.

Budweiser? HA!

[tbyars]

It is a good one and an asset for CC.

IMO

Have you ever, in your life, watched one single race on Eurosport? That is a simple question and demands only a yes or no answer.

If not, how can you say that in the face of folks like Andrewmcm who DOES watch the races on that network?

[indycool]

....or Mexican TV or Australian TV........assets? Baloney.

[Andrewmcm]

I should point out that although I bought Race Director this year, I watched CC for the last 2 seasons on Eurosport, and I was not impressed at all. Hence my remarks in that first post are based in fact and not on supposition.

Just to clear it up in case of pedantry...! ;)

[tbyars]

Just to clear it up in case of pedantry...! ;)

Andrew, I've gotta tell you....that made me laugh harder than just about anything I've read here in a LONG time!

:up: :up: :up:

[Champcar4life]

It seems no one wants Champcar around, in some cases not even the fans, its like let it just die, so we can be heal blah blah .We all know how screw up things seem too be with cancel races, driver getting the boot for market reason, driver not been pay, teams dropout, sponser leaving, its seem each week there is some bad news coming from this forum, or others and at the sametime no one from the top seem too say anything, its kinda like they don't see it, but anyway I will wait until next season I have been doing it since 04 when the the three took over, wait and see.

[BrentJackson]

America only supports the home team when they win and then only if they dominate the event.

Tell that to Allmendinger. CCWS got lots more media attention when AJ started winning. Even when he didn't win at Edmonton and San Jose the media was quite quick to say that he would be back to win again.


You like to blame everything on Champ Car but Champ Car has brought back racing at Road America and Portland and now Laguna. Road America had a pitiful attendance and Portland will probably not make the 2008 schedule because of poor attendance. I'm sure you will make it Champ Cars fault for poor attendance at American venues BUT with Champ Car, the foreign venues do attract great fans to the venues in high numbers.

Let's look at this a little closely, shall we?

Zolder's attendance numbers were no better than Road America or Mont-Tremblant, so toss that one. The Netherlands has very little top-level motorsport, and their brightest racing star was in the field and in championship contention. A1 had the same thing when Verstappen proved a threat to win at Zandvoort after dominating at Durban the year before. Surfers Paradise it seems is looked at as being a V8 race first CC second, and the V8s are as popular in Australia as NASCAR is in the US. What else is there, Mike? Mexico City? Sinking fast, has been since the Mexicans in both drivers and sponsors went away.

Is it CC's fault that RA and M-T only got 25-30K? No. The promoter is responsible for his attendance. But he cannot promote easily if CCWS' product sucks. That isn't rocket science.


Now why is it that Champ Car with the same ingredients have better attendance in foreign lands than in America hmmmmm?

Because the field is full of them, and even then its hardly proven that the foreign races are better than North American ones.


America is NahSCAR land and Americans like their racing with big shiny billboards with huge numbers that go round and round. They want to sit back in their seats for 5 hours anticipating the next big crash.

Nice. You've just proven to me you are an elitist, and those people tick me off. What happened to CART, anyways? They weren't as you put it "big shiny billboards with huge numbers that go round and round". They got famous because the bast drivers in America were there. Star power is what draws fans, and that can be either in machinery or drivers. ALMS and to a lesser extent Grand-Am works off the machinery aspect and quite successfully. CC is a spec series, which means the path to success goes through the drivers - who are roated around frequently for the next sucker with a bank account. Combine that with an arrogant attitude, jerkoff fans, a bad reputation as a business and virtually no promotion whatsoever and you go from CART in 2001 to where we are now.

Champ Car is responsible for its own success, or lack thereof. That hasn't sunk in yet to you, sanguin and the other Kalkhoven apologists. Think about this, Mike. Is CC better than it was four years ago? No, it isn't. And don't give me the victim BS either, because if you think F1 or NASCAR give a rats behind about Champ Car you are royally, badly delusional.

It was time four years ago for the amigos to get it together and begin fixing the mistakes made by the past series operators. They haven't done that. They've let problems that already existed get much worse, and that is the reason CC is in the shape it is in.

Mike, you seem to me like a reasonable, intelligent person. So, why in the heck are you stumping for the morons at CC HQ instead of standing up and barking like most of us here for them to get off their arses and fix this series? That goes to sanguin and the other Kalkhoven apologists too.

Why are we having to debate the problems? Any idiot can see them.

[Cart750hp]

Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that Brent answered the bell for CC.

Couldn't agree more, Brent.

[Andrewmcm]

Andrew, I've gotta tell you....that made me laugh harder than just about anything I've read here in a LONG time!

:up: :up: :up:

Well we can't be serious all the time can we - everyone likes a laugh now and again! ;)

[heelntoe]

Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that Brent answered the bell for CC.

Couldn't agree more, Brent.

Amen to that and to Brent for his concise response

[pvtjoker]

Well said, Brent.

[tbyars]

Agreed. Good job, Brent.

[sanguin]

Secured successful events, tv pkg, new car, secure engine manufacturer, Pi, revamped Atlantics with new car. All things the other series wants. Shoring up the schedule can be done, every series goes through it. When CC has 12 years under their present ownership,then we can compare. The foundation is there.

Brent isn't saying anything new, its the same rant we've heard for years on the forums. Nothing is good enough and throw money at it an make it go away. It used to be about how bad street racing is,now its the European races. Usually you can can count on whatever is being said, the opposite is what will work. True to form ,thanks.

BTW I"ll take all the $5 bets. How do we get paid?

[garyshell]

Sorry, but I have 5-bucks that Brent answered the bell for CC.

Couldn't agree more, Brent.


Amen to that and to Brent for his concise response


Well said, Brent.


Agreed. Good job, Brent.


You guys need to get a room.

Gary

[garyshell]

So, why in the heck are you stumping for the morons at CC HQ instead of standing up and barking like most of us here for them to get off their arses and fix this series?


As if those are the ONLY two options? Is this a case of "you're either with us or you're against us"? I agree it is STUPID to be stumping for the folks who are pulling the strings at CC, but I think it is equally as stupid to think that all the pontification, pronouncements and hand wringing in a forum like this are going to do a damn thing to change the goings on at CC. Further, I think it is pathetic that folks think that any one who doesn't join either of those two camps doesn't give a damn about what is happening.

Gary

[indycool]

Sanguin, let's go through your post:

"Secured successful events" -- name them.
"TV pkg" -- Why would the IRL want to pay for TV time when it gets paid for it?
"New car" -- please show me where the IRL wants the DP-01.
"Secure engine manufacturer" -- Layoffs continue at Cosworth, where Bernard Ferguson, a key 23-year engineer, just left. Cosworth has no F1 deal. All Cosworth has is a CC deal.
"Pi" -- Why would the IRL want to own Pi?
"Revamped Atlantics with new car" -- The IPS series experienced a big growth in field this year, more than 20 cars per race. Why does the IRL want Atlantics?

"All things the other series wants?
Baloney.

And by the way, good post, Brent.

[tbyars]

Shoring up the schedule can be done, every series goes through it.

No, they don't. That is just another untruth that you hope, by repeating it enough, will become accepted.

Give us ONE example where a professional series - ANY professional series - was in the position CCWS is in right now, in mid October, with no more than 2 or 3 races/venues having announced firm dates for the 2008 season which begins in just a few months.

Tell us, sanguin, how do you sell sponsorships under those conditions?

How do you get the best possible TV? Are you willing to sit there and tell us that ABC/ESPN, even as a time buy, will sit there forever and hold time slots for races that are still uncertain as spring programming is being set? Mark my word...the result of all this, if there IS a 2008 season for CCWS, will be that you will see a far greater number of events on ESPN Classic next year.

Now we read that Petit - the owner who is closing up shop - is the only one of the series owners who will even be present in Australia at this "marquis" event.

You poo poo the lack of a schedule as being insignificant, something easily overcome. It's not. It's hard.

The problem is that over the past year, especially, the CCWS ownership has not been able to overcome even the truly "easy things." What makes you think they can do the hard ones?

[sanguin]

Sanguin, let's go through your post:

"Secured successful events" -- name them.
"TV pkg" -- Why would the IRL want to pay for TV time when it gets paid for it?
"New car" -- please show me where the IRL wants the DP-01.
"Secure engine manufacturer" -- Layoffs continue at Cosworth, where Bernard Ferguson, a key 23-year engineer, just left. Cosworth has no F1 deal. All Cosworth has is a CC deal.
"Pi" -- Why would the IRL want to own Pi?
"Revamped Atlantics with new car" -- The IPS series experienced a big growth in field this year, more than 20 cars per race. Why does the IRL want Atlantics?

"All things the other series wants?


I read it all the time. You keep saying they don't want anything from CC, but that's not what being posted.Seems they want a lot, venues, Atlantics,teams,they certainly need a new car. Cosworth has other business besides CC.


Cosworth - which is owned by Gerry Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven, co owners of the Champ Car World Series - is dealing with more road engines and is diversifying into aerospace, medical equipment design and confidential automotive consultancy work. It has recently gained prestigious AS/EN9100 accreditation to manufacture products for the aerospace sector.

http://www.eemsonline.co.uk/press_releases/02-09-07

You've never had the pleasure of watching, or at least trying to watch a race on Eurosport, have you? Delays, cutting to races half-way through, cutting if races over-run. You name the things they could do to annoy the fans and they do it - they've even kept with live tennis in preference to CCWS. I think most of the races were on Europsort 2 this year as well. I say I think as I don't have satellite or cable tv and stumped up the money for Race Director. The only good thing about the (international and therefore) Eurosport feed is the commentators - Jeremy Shaw and James Hinchcliffe are great - just a shame those ridiculous banners obscure a lot of the track when in-car.

Eurosport do the bare minimum to have CC on their network. They spend a lot more time advertising the WTCC, in much the same way as Sky TV (UK satellite) plug A1GP and (to a lesser extent) the IRL.

I've got Satellite, and can safely say that Eurosports coverage of CCWS is, being charitable, half-assed.

I try to watch it, but I'll give you a few examples. Eurosport had the live Assen CC race coverage timetabled for 1pm GMT on the schedule.

I programmed the reminder on the satellite box, and come 1pm GMT got the reminder flash up that their coverage was about to start.

I pressed the 'select' button, and discovered that the race was live....only it was already on lap 35.

That is for the biggest European race in the ChampCar schedule....on the European channel!

Another time....can't remember the race but it was on late over here (about 10pm GMT)....I switched on at the correct time, to discover that because the WTCC coverage had over-run, they went to the live coverage of the CC race half-way through.

Eurosport is the main backer of the WTCC and therefore really pushes its prominence. Unsurprisingly, because they own the rights to the broadcasts, the coverage is very good, even having the qualifying sessions for most races broadcast live. They even show the Formula Masters support races live on occasions.

Their MotoGP coverage is exceptional, with every session live and then repeated several times...including the practice sessions.

Their Superbike coverage is very good too.

ChampCar races are shown live on Eurosport, but are pitiful in comparison.

I generally end up watching the repeat broadcast on MotorsTV, as its shown later in the week, but even they are not a patch on MotorsTV's coverage of the DTM, which has live qualifying and live race broadcasts for every round.

SkySports cover the IRL and A1GP. This is a subscription channel, but the quality of the coverage is way better than the ChampCar coverage provided by Eurosport. For the record, Eurosport is not free, it is part of the basic satellite package (cost approx $30 a month).

The problem for ChampCar is that in comparison to the other series on Eurosport and the multitude of race series shown on Motors TV (live ALMS, live DTM, live LMS, live V8 SuperCars, all repeated throughout the following week) the image of the series due to the poor coverage and second-class standing it has in the schedules makes it only of interest to the truly devoted...and that's just not good enough for a series with aspirations.

[BobGarage]

in the position CCWS is in right now, in mid October, with no more than 2 or 3 races/venues having announced firm dates for the 2008 season which begins in just a few months.


actually my count is 7, or 8 with the vegas date originally on their website which has since been removed.

06-Apr-2008 Las Vegas *
20-Apr-2008 Long Beach
27-Apr-2008 Houston
18-May-2008 Laguna Seca
22-June-2008 Cleveland
06-Jul-2008 Toronto
20-Jul-2008 Edmonton
10-Aug-2008 Road America

All confirmed either by the venue, with ticket renew notices or, in the case of a couple, confirmed when the ALMS schedule was announced with double header weekends with Champ Car.

* Vegas date was originally on their website but is no longer.

[BobGarage]

Another time....can't remember the race but it was on late over here (about 10pm GMT)....I switched on at the correct time, to discover that because the WTCC coverage had over-run, they went to the live coverage of the CC race half-way through.

that was san jose in 2006. i agree with you that eurosport's coverage is *****

[indycool]

Sanguin:

Oh.

[sanguin]

The Champ Car World Series officials have confirmed to PaddockTalk that their calendar will be released within the next few weeks.

The 2008 Champ Car calendar is currently being reviewed by the FIA, who are due to meet to ratify the schedule.

It would be reasonable to expect that Champ Car are double and triple checking their events to avoid race cancellations that have plagued the series over the last couple of seasons.

Champ Car staff were cagy about the details, but they were confident that they will have enough cars on the grid next year.



http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=69619

[indycool]

Next few weeks.....that's really nailing it down. I can't see any more than Bob Garage has that are relatively secure.

[deadsquirrel]

actually my count is 7, or 8 with the vegas date originally on their website which has since been removed.

06-Apr-2008 Las Vegas *
20-Apr-2008 Long Beach
27-Apr-2008 Houston
18-May-2008 Laguna Seca
22-June-2008 Cleveland
06-Jul-2008 Toronto
20-Jul-2008 Edmonton
10-Aug-2008 Road America


Aargh! Want to work the Toronto race, but it's same weekend as F1 at Silverstone. Anyone want to pursuade me which would be better/more enjoyable?

[mike15]

Tell that to Allmendinger. CCWS got lots more media attention when AJ started winning. Even when he didn't win at Edmonton and San Jose the media was quite quick to say that he would be back to win again.



You just made my point.
The American media only notices an American driver when they win. Look at the excitement foreign drivers get in their homeland even if they are low in the standings.




Zolder's attendance numbers were no better than Road America or Mont-Tremblant, so toss that one.

Surfers Paradise it seems is looked at as being a V8 race first CC second, and the V8s are as popular in Australia as NASCAR is in the US. What else is there, Mike? Mexico City? Sinking fast, has been since the Mexicans in both drivers and sponsors went away.

Is it CC's fault that RA and M-T only got 25-30K? No. The promoter is responsible for his attendance. But he cannot promote easily if CCWS' product sucks. That isn't rocket science.

.

Zolder definitely had better attendance than RA and Mont-Tremblant even with the high ticket prices. With all the publicity Road America has received being the great American road race venue the attendance was disappointing. Your constantly developing schedules with venues that fail in attracting attendance.

Why you constantly say the series sucks is beyond me. The entire year track records have been broken with the DP01 but you like to ignore those facts. The racing has been great both up front and back in the field. New drivers and teams have been competitive with the series top teams. So in your opinion the racing suck? I guess ignorance is bliss to make your point.

Australia will have a huge Champ Car race day attendance unlike Road America that brought in another high profile series.

Champ Car needs 4 Mexican drivers. That will bring back the Mexican attendance and sponsors. Notice I did not say 4 top Mexican drivers. Mexicans support their drivers as do other countries.


Nice. You've just proven to me you are an elitist, and those people tick me off. What happened to CART, anyways? .

CART did well even without the I500. It was a conspiracy between IMS and Honda that forced CART to use there own funds to race their final year. Until that point the IMS series was floundering and even with the switch of those CART teams to the IMS series attendance did not follow.


They weren't as you put it "big shiny billboards with huge numbers that go round and round". They got famous because the bast drivers in America were there. Star power is what draws fans, and that can be either in machinery or drivers.

One correction CART had the best drivers in the WORLD. CART from 1983 to 1991 was dominated by American drivers in the top 10 but from 1992 through 2004, foreign drivers started to dominate the top 10 positions in the series. It was names like Fittipaldi, Mansell, Villeneuve, Zanardi, Montoya, deFerran, daMatta, Tracy and Bourdais that were on top of the series and brought world attention to CART. That opened the eyes of a man named Bernie.


ALMS and to a lesser extent Grand-Am works off the machinery aspect and quite successfully. CC is a spec series, which means the path to success goes through the drivers - who are roated around frequently for the next sucker with a bank account.

Two point ALMS and Grand Am are not the big draw in attendance that you claim but then again you are happy with pooly attended races.

The biggest bank account in AOWR is at IMS. If it were not for IMS there would not be an IMS series.

The once great race in America, the I500 in case you forgot, was sold out from one year to the next. Now they promote the race 365 days a year and still need gimmicks to entice people to the race.


Combine that with an arrogant attitude, jerkoff fans, a bad reputation as a business and virtually no promotion whatsoever and you go from CART in 2001 to where we are now.


An arrogant attitude? Every OWRS owner will talk to their fans at every venue. That cant be said about any other series.
Those jerkoff fans you talk about are at their venues the first day the track is opens through race day. Unlike other seres who's fans just attend race day.
A bad reputation as a business? Name another series that has stabilized their series with the main components that make up the product, like an engine and electronics and key venues etc.

No promotion? I guess you did not get your complimintary subscription to AutoWeek. CC has explored different avinues of promotion every year including the latest TV package and marketing companies. Have they work out NOT as expected but they are constantly looking for improvements. What do you do when you hire the best marketing firm in the business and it does not meet expectations? You move on.


Champ Car is responsible for its own success, or lack thereof. That hasn't sunk in yet to you, sanguin and the other Kalkhoven apologists. Think about this, Mike. Is CC better than it was four years ago? No, it isn't. And don't give me the victim BS either, because if you think F1 or NASCAR give a rats behind about Champ Car you are royally, badly delusional.
.

Is CC better than it was four years ago? Talk about the blind leading the blind. With all the investments that OWRS has made is securing both Champ Car and the Atlantics series along with attempts to improve TV packages how can you suggest that the series is not better than four years ago.

F1 and NASCAR are huge series on their own turf. F1 is not that popular in America as NASCAR is not that popular in the world. Champ Car is carving it's own way in the WORLD. Unlike the other AOW series, Champ Car is not NASCAR without fenders and thank god Champ Car is not the elitist F1.


Mike, you seem to me like a reasonable, intelligent person. So, why in the heck are you stumping for the morons at CC HQ instead of standing up and barking like most of us here for them to get off their arses and fix this series? That goes to sanguin and the other Kalkhoven apologists too.

Why are we having to debate the problems? Any idiot can see them.

Because you are one of the little people that believes that management and the rich are automaticlly the cause of all problems you can't see the good that has been done. When changes are made in a company they are made with the intent that it will make the company better. Changes have been made year after year in Champ Car, some have worked and some have not.

Low level people have solutions to every problem but when it comes to implementing their plans they always fall short mainly because their plans was not though out
completely or they never had the funds to act.

Shooting from the hip is always easy, hitting the target is the hard part.

My guess is, you are one that prefers instant oatmeal over the process of cooking a great oatmeal. The longer cooked oatmeal not only tastes better but it satisifies for a much longer time. The Champ Car process is like cooking a great oatmeal. Once you have all the ingrediants in place there will be nothing better. It's not there yet because they have not put together all the right ingrediants but it will come together.

So when was the last time you talked to Kevin?
Every year at Cleveland he has taken time to talk to me. It may be for only 5 minutes but he does communicate to the fans of Champ Car. To me that is important.

[BobGarage]

Aargh! Want to work the Toronto race, but it's same weekend as F1 at Silverstone. Anyone want to pursuade me which would be better/more enjoyable?

july in northamptonshire: wet, windy, miserable
july in toronto: warm, sunny, enjoyable

;)

[pvtjoker]

You just made my point.
The American media only notices an American driver when they win. Look at the excitement foreign drivers get in their homeland even if they are low in the standings.



Really? When has Danica won a race? Marco got alot of press finishing 2nd at Indy. M. Waltrip is having a stellar season (not), yet I see his name in the media all the time. In other sports, the Cubs get alot of play in the media for finding ways to lose.

Keep trying. You haven't made your point yet.

[indycool]

Since it's directed at Brent, I'll leave it to him for long-form answer.

"A CONSPIRACY between IMS and Honda that forced CART to use its (sic) own funds to race its (sic) final year."

Just what would that be? Honda wasn't running in CART. Honda was running in the IRL. IMS was not running in CART. IMS conducted an IRL race.

[nigelred5]

The manufacturers pay the bills and they still need an audience to justify it. So you're think a tv pkg between SPEED and CBS is better than CC's on one network? No way. Have you seen the ALMS races on CBS? they are pretaped and cut to fit a time slot. They're awful. CC just got their tv pkg. They haven't had one full year with their new partner yet. Last year some races were still on other networks. They also have atlantics on ABC/ESPN.
The truth is F1 ,ALMS, GA, IRL, CC and other series all have bad ratings. This is not unique to CC at all. Even Nascar is on 2 year low.

It is a good one and an asset for CC.

IMO

Sorry, though they may be the same family of networks, Having races constantly switching between ABC, ESPN, ESPN2, ESPN Classic is not on ONE NETWORK, that's 4. Frequently those four channels are spread across 150 channels on the cable tuner and Classic, NEWS and Deportes are scattered all over the premium area of the digital area I don't get without dropping close to 2 bills a month.

of course they weren't going to promote the competetors events, but hey might have run even a handful of spots all year cross promoting between their own programming. If they don't get the money from the advertising, there is no incentive for the network to promote the events. do you see how often they run promos and full commercials for the IRL and NASCAR events. That's the level that CCWS needs to spend on the TV deal alone.
It's little different than what we have had last year and this season with those in addition to NBC and CBS if they continue to be an independently produced time buy. There is no and will be be no poromotion if CCWS doesn't pay for it, and their track record says thay won't at any where near the level needed.

Pick a channel and stay there.

I'd love to be such an optomist as you are about CC, but as they say "reality bites" and my a$$ is getting sore from 13 years of all this crap. End it.

[deadsquirrel]

I see this thread is going off topic and discussing the SAME old issues yet again, but from the title of the thread, how about we DO actually pair up and accept these $5 bets? The loser can send a nice crisp $5 bill to the winner after the first race weekend! :)

I offer my $5 that CCWS WILL answer the bell in 2008. Who's going to say nay?

[cartpix]

I'll put $5 on Champ Car too, PV.

Jeff

[Blancvino]

I see this thread is going off topic and discussing the SAME old issues yet again, but from the title of the thread, how about we DO actually pair up and accept these $5 bets? The loser can send a nice crisp $5 bill to the winner after the first race weekend! :)

I offer my $5 that CCWS WILL answer the bell in 2008. Who's going to say nay?


Not me

[Chris R]

I think Champcar answering the bell is a fair bet - but I would not bet on them lasting the entire "round"

[CCFanatic]

I'll put down 5 bucks the League faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks that F1 will faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks Nascar faulter before CC. SCCA will faulter before CC. WRC will faulter before CC. The super health MotoGP will faulter before CC.

[CCFanatic]

I got my Long Beach CC tickets for 2008 today. I do not think CC would fold if they were sending tickets before the current season has yet to finish.

[indycool]

Phoenix did....then recalled 'em.

[tbyars]

Phoenix did....then recalled 'em.

And the day that happened, I said straight up that the race was never going to happen. From a printer's standpoint, their cover story was obviously a lie.

[nigelred5]

I'll put down 5 bucks the League faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks that F1 will faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks Nascar faulter before CC. SCCA will faulter before CC. WRC will faulter before CC. The super health MotoGP will faulter before CC.

I bet Vegas loves you ;)

[sanguin]

I'll put down 5 bucks the League faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks that F1 will faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks Nascar faulter before CC. SCCA will faulter before CC. WRC will faulter before CC. The super health MotoGP will faulter before CC.

I'll bet this too.

[nanders]

06-Apr-2008 Las Vegas *
20-Apr-2008 Long Beach
27-Apr-2008 Houston
18-May-2008 Laguna Seca
22-June-2008 Cleveland
06-Jul-2008 Toronto
20-Jul-2008 Edmonton
10-Aug-2008 Road America


add IRP, Phoenix International Raceway, Iowa Speedway, New Hampshire and Richmond International Raceway and I'll bet the 5er and go to all the races and drink the coolaid.

[SoCalPVguy]

To CCFanatic you wrote: I'll put down 5 bucks the League faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks that F1 will faulter before CC. I'll put down 5 bucks Nascar faulter before CC. SCCA will faulter before CC. WRC will faulter before CC. The super health MotoGP will faulter before CC.

*LOL* I'll take that bet, heck I'll have your $10 in my pocket re. F1 and Nascar, THEN we'll worry about the CCWS $5, either way I'm ahead... very funny stuff...

http://www.hbvl.be/nieuws/sport/motorsp ... t.asp?art= (http://www.hbvl.be/nieuws/sport/motorsport/default.asp?art=){9A1AA1F8-512D-4C39-B3CE-D362CC35DA37}

If you can read Dutch, CCWS driver Jan Heylen doubts CCWS will exist in 2008, so I gues he ain't taking the bet either !!!

[David St. Hubbins]

I've got 5 bucks that says the Sun will explode and destroy the Earth, and CC will still be around! Beat that for confidence!

;)

[CCFanatic]

http://www.hbvl.be/nieuws/sport/motorsp ... t.asp?art= (http://www.hbvl.be/nieuws/sport/motorsport/default.asp?art=){9A1AA1F8-512D-4C39-B3CE-D362CC35DA37}

If you can read Dutch, CCWS driver Jan Heylen doubts CCWS will exist in 2008, so I gues he ain't taking the bet either !!!

Most of that goes back to that he wants to get paid. CC drivers who are not top drivers do not get paid. Well they do, but not enough for them to be happy. So what does Jan do, he blasts the series, just like Bobby Rahal and the otehr guys who took the yen and went to the League. They said the series won't last, yet the series is still here. Jan is just angered that he won't be able to race there anymore. Angered that he is unable to scrap up any funds to race in one of the most affordable series in the world.

But what I do not get, is who is Jan, a relative unknown to the world, to run his mouth about the future of the series for which he is not much of a big shot in. If it was Paul Tracy or Alex Tagliani who said these things then I might question, but it is Jan Heylan. A guy whose career highlights end at a 2004 German F3 Championship and a win in the 2002 FF Festival.

[sanguin]

Most of that goes back to that he wants to get paid. CC drivers who are not top drivers do not get paid. Well they do, but not enough for them to be happy. So what does Jan do, he blasts the series, just like Bobby Rahal and the otehr guys who took the yen and went to the League. They said the series won't last, yet the series is still here. Jan is just angered that he won't be able to race there anymore. Angered that he is unable to scrap up any funds to race in one of the most affordable series in the world.

But what I do not get, is who is Jan, a relative unknown to the world, to run his mouth about the future of the series for which he is not much of a big shot in. If it was Paul Tracy or Alex Tagliani who said these things then I might question, but it is Jan Heylan. A guy whose career highlights end at a 2004 German F3 Championship and a win in the 2002 FF Festival.

A correction from Jan on AR1-


The author said he doubts Champ Car will make it in 2008 but Jan Heylen told Autoracing1.com today that those were not his words and that Champ Car has been a great series and he is trying to put a deal together for 2008 in Champ Car. To cover his bases in case it does not work out in Champ Car, yes he is looking at ALMS and Grand-Am too.

[CCFanatic]

A correction from Jan on AR1-

AR1 is good for at least one correction. Thank you. You corrected my post.

[Andrewmcm]

But what I do not get, is who is Jan, a relative unknown to the world, to run his mouth about the future of the series for which he is not much of a big shot in. If it was Paul Tracy or Alex Tagliani who said these things then I might question, but it is Jan Heylan. A guy whose career highlights end at a 2004 German F3 Championship and a win in the 2002 FF Festival.

Would he not be the kind of driver that teams would look for to race in an inreasingly European-orientated CCWS series? Someone who the "local" Europeans may have heard of and would be attractive to circuits and promoters to help put bums on seats at events?

[BobGarage]

Would he not be the kind of driver that teams would look for to race in an inreasingly European-orientated CCWS series? Someone who the "local" Europeans may have heard of and would be attractive to circuits and promoters to help put bums on seats at events?

sorry, until he appeared in CC most Europeans hadn't heard of him either!

[Continental Op]

It feels like I gave up on CCWS this year. I think there is a possibility they will just sell the decent venues after Mexico.

The big mistake made I believe is that they didn't realize they had to see 2007 as a spending year. They spent loads of money on a new car and TV-deals but left it half-done there. I also get the impression they cut down on marketing the events. If I am right KK also handed over the control to Steve Johnson much more than before. During the whole 2007 season almost nothing positive have been announced. I am not sure when Johnson took over but last year at least things happened.

I think if they wanted to build the series with a new car they had to invest in more teams. Why spend loads of money on a new product if you don't do any marketing? It seems like they made a fundamental error here.

On the other hand of course, subsidizing teams is no guarantee they would have stayed, many might have done a one year like American Spirit in 02.

[Easy Drifter]

I think I might take the bet but that is only $4.80 Cdn.

[CCFanatic]

I think I might take the bet but that is only $4.80 Cdn.

OT, but I thought the exchange rate was so now that the US dollar was less than the Canadian?

[Easy Drifter]

Right. So $5 US is worth $4.80 Cdn. Despite this some merchants in Buffalo were wanting a $1.40 Cdn. for items @ $1 US last week!
Back in the 70's when the Cdn dollar was worth as much as $1.10 US we always bought US dollars before we left to race in the US. Near the border Cdn. dollars usually were accepted (not always) but at the best at par. Get out of a border state and good luck trying to use Cdn. money.
Admittedly part of the reason was the different banking system. Our banks are country wide and even the smallest branch is used to foriegn exchange and always have US money on hand and know the rates. Oops a little off topic.

[cobre]

Dr. Kavorkian to the front office, this thread is in need of your services!

[BrentJackson]

Mike15, I could respond to all of your points one by one, but you are too ignorant to listen to anything I or any of the rest of the people who aren't Kalkhoven apologists have to say.

And if CC doesn't have a 2008, don't bother with writing about how it's the fault of TG, Bernie Ecclestone, Brian France, Honda, Toyota, God, the US Government or any other dumbarse conspiracy theories. Because that will just prove how ignorant you are. You form minute one to me have been stooping for these guys, no matter what they've done. I've never figured out why, but I have come to see that even if I could figure it out it would just tell me that CC's diehards are too dumb, too blind, too obsessed with Anton "Tony" Hulman George to see the truth.

The odds are against CC having another year. Why? Because what they had in 2004 was there. It wasn't much, but it was something to build on. They have tossed all of that away, leaving just "support the cause" as a rally cry, as something to draw on. And it isn't working. And until CC realizes that playing to the market that built you will save them, things will not change. I think it's very nearly too late.

So, you gonna see the truth, or are you gonna like a total idiot when CC closes the doors and Anton wins?

They in 2004 shoulda kept the diverse schedule to whatever extent possible, kept the CART name (because it was known), keep as many of the stars they had, take what they had, stabilize it and then build on it. KK went looking for fast cash. And it has mutated the series into something that looks nothing like what we all hoped and prayed for the amigos to save in the winter of 2004.

But don't worry, just F TG some more, right?

Wake up, Mike.

[SoCalPVguy]

I posted the original though back on October 25th 2006.

Given the news, all of it bad, since then, I stand behind it now.

All it would take is one team (Haas, etc...) to take up an IRL offer of free chassis and support and jump to the Indy League and CCWS is done foe befoe the first event.

Long Beach is still about 90 days away with four confirmed rides and look what has happened in the last 90 days and project that to what could happen in the next... I am convinced, given the articles written by knowledgeable jouranlists, that there is something happening behind the scenes that the sanguine fanatics cannot comprehend.

I know the sanguine fanatics will still take the bet, but the question of the day is now, of those wanted my five bucks back in October, who still wants to take this bet ???

[sanguin]

I'll take the bet.

2008 goes on as planned. It isn't over until GF and KK says it is.

Haas said they aren't going this year. I doubt they would go at all if there's no merger.

[indycool]

No, Haas did NOT say he's not going this year. Read it again.

[sanguin]

No, Haas did NOT say he's not going this year. Read it again.

The bet is on.

[indycool]

You and SoCal bet all you want, but that Haas said he wasn't changing is patently untrue from Miller's commentary. He didn't say he was or he wasn't.

[sanguin]

You and SoCal bet all you want, but that Haas said he wasn't changing is patently untrue from Miller's commentary. He didn't say he was or he wasn't.

So it was spun on SPEED, Paddock has this-

"Meanwhile, some media outlets are spinning the possibility with the exact same quotes used in Speed Channel's story, but with a significantly different bent. Even one self proclaimed 'authority' with a long history claimed, "Haas plans to move team to IRL".

Though one might infer that from the quotes by Carl Haas - Champ Car co-owner of the Newman/Haas/Lanigan team - that isn't exactly what he said. What he said was that the team would 'certainly consider going', but was hoping for a merger this year or next.

But even more interesting than reports spinning to sell copy, is that at this time... no significant additional information has come to light. The original story was strong, with direct quotes, and seemed to leave ample room for more questions...."

My bet is NHL in CC for 2008.

[indycool]

Your bet is your business. But you just admitted I was right. He actuaklly didn't commit to either series for either year. READ THE ORIGINAL QUOTE FROKM THE ORIGINAL STORY. WHAT YOU SAID WAS UNTRUE.

[sanguin]

Your bet is your business. But you just admitted I was right. He actuaklly didn't commit to either series for either year. READ THE ORIGINAL QUOTE FROKM THE ORIGINAL STORY. WHAT YOU SAID WAS UNTRUE.

I'm not believing anything until we hear from NHL from a credible source. You can believe what you want.

[beachbum]

I'm not believing anything until we hear from NHL from a credible source. You can believe what you want.You should have stopped with "I'm not believing anything". I guess Haas isn't credible.

[indycool]

Oh.

[FerrrariF1]

You should have stopped with "I'm not believing anything". I guess Haas isn't credible.

It's not not Haas is not credible but Miller.....just a few short months ago Miller work an article quoting Derrick Walker. Well Walker immed. went on record to tell everyone that Miller not only took his comments out of context but purposely ommitted prior questions that lead to the answer thus twisting the reality of the answer.This is common Robin Miller. As a matter of fact he is a bit on Cavin's comments when asked on his blog today in Indystar website....note when Miller writes beware of what the real truth is and his sources. Other publications have higher standards before they report anything.Question: Is their any truth to the acticle about Tony George making an offer to Champ Car teams for free chassis and engines for the upcoming season? There was also talk in the article about Long Beach, Toronto, Edmonton, Mexico City and Australia being added to the IRL schedule this season. How set in stone is the IRL schedule? Because the Motegi race would have to be moved for the Long Beach Grand Prix. (Ben, Grand Rapids, Mich.)Answer: First of all, let me say this: I believe, as Fred Nation said in the article, that Tony George has had "continuing" talks over the years with Champ Car officials and team owners regarding them joining the Indy Racing League. Here's the reason The Star has not published a story this week about an alleged offer made by Tony in recent weeks: Because no one has gone on the record and confirmed that. As many of you know, I appreciate Robin's effort and his sources, but the information he has used in this case appears to come solely from one unnamed source. The Star has a very strong policy against such reporting; Speedtv.com clearly has different standards. Having said that, I hope Robin's information is correct, but I will caution everyone that this isn't the first time we've "heard" that Tony has offered free engines and free chassis. The last time he steadfastly denied that, saying nothing could be farther from the truth. I guess time, or Tony George, will tell.

[Cart750hp]

I'm not believing anything until we hear from NHL from a credible source. You can believe what you want.

OK, so if we hear something from NHL that means we are expecting you to have a new screen name, again?

[SoCalPVguy]

the bottom line is so far I have only one bettor (you can guess who).

Back in October I had aboout 10 or so bettors.

[SoCalPVguy]

Now, is there anybody in their clear thinking minds, except the sanguine fanatics, that would still like to take this bet ????

[jimispeed]

Now, is there anybody in their clear thinking minds, except the sanguine fanatics, that would still like to take this bet ????


It feels good to rub **** in peoples faces doesn't it???

You don't really know what's going to happen, and neither do any of us!!

I know this much though. There isn't a **** thing that we can do about it.

We can voice our opinions, but that's as far as it goes.

[SoCalPVguy]

I have been severley rebuked by our fine moderator, Mr,. Starter for writing a lot less than what you wrote above. You can apologize later.

As you say, we are posting only our opinions her, and I originally posted by opinion way back in October 25, 2006 that IMO, CCWS was in dire straights. By the results of the events of the past couple of day, I have again been proven correct - just as, for example, I predicted the departure of Steelback at Toronto before anybody elese here did.

Now, your rudeness aside, are you in for 5 bucks or not ???

[jimispeed]

I have been severley rebuked by our fine moderator, Mr,. Starter for writing a lot less than what you wrote above. You can apologize later.

As you say, we are posting only our opinions her, and I originally posted by opinion way back in October 25, 2006 that IMO, CCWS was in dire straights. By the results of the events of the past couple of day, I have again been proven correct - just as, for example, I predicted the departure of Steelback at Toronto before anybody elese here did.

Now, your rudeness aside, are you in for 5 bucks or not ???


I don't call that rude. People are always coming back to rub in the faces of others, when they feel they've won their bets. It's just human nature!!


But I can't bet on this one, It's way too messed up for me to predict.

Rick Shaffer told me a few months back not to worry too much, because it's never in our control............ I guess I should listen to him....

SoCal, I didn't mean to offend you!!