Rank the drivers

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It's been a while since we've had a thread like this (I can't see one on the 1st page :dozey: )

Ok, rank the current F1 drivers based on who you think is the best. May get controversial. ;)


1) Alonso
2) Räikkönen
3) Hamilton
4) Button
5) Heidfeld
6) Rosberg
7) Massa
8) Webber
9) Kovalainen
10) Kubica
11) Fisichella
12) Barrichello
13) Sutil
14) Coulthard
15) Trulli
16) Vettel
17) Davidson
18) Sato
19) Schumacher
20) Wurz
21) Liuzzi
22) Yamamoto

[BeansBeansBeans]

20) Wurz

Hey, if you can have retired drivers, so can I.

1) Michael Schumacher :p :

[Schultz]

1) Alonso
2) Raikkonnen
3) Kubica
4) Webber
5) Heidfeld
6) Button
7) Vettel
8) Massa
9) Kovalainen
10) Rosberg
11) Fisichella
12) Sutil
13) Coulthard
14) SchumacheR
15) Trulli
16) Sato
17) Davidson
18) Wurz
19) Barrichello
20) Liuzzi
21) Hamilton
22) Yamamoto

[pino]

1) Alonso
2) Kimi
3) Hamilton
4) Massa
5) Kubica
6) Webber
7) Heidfeld
8) Rosberg
9) Trulli
10)Kovalainen
11) Fisichella
12) Button
13) Vettel
14) Coulthard
15) Sato
16) Barrichello
17) Sutil
18) Ralf
19) Liuzzi
20) Wurz
21) Davidson
22) Yamamoto

[Stuartf12007]

1) Raikkonen
2) Alonso
3) Hamilton
4) Rosberg
5) Heidfeld
6) Massa
7) Kubica
8) Button
9) Vettel
10) Webber
11) Trulli
12) Fisichella
13) Kovalainen
14) Barrichello
15) Sutil
16) Davidson
17) Sato
18) Liuzzi
19) Shumacher
20) Coulthard
21) Wurz
22) Yamamoto

[jonny hurlock]

a bit different on rating the drivers, I rate DC better than Webber, Davidson better than Sato, I put Sutil and Vettel in top 10:

1) Alonso
2) Kimi
3) Hamilton
4) Massa
5) Heidfeld
6) Rosberg
7) Kubica
8) Vettel
9) Sutil
10) Button
11) Kovalainen
12) Coulthard
13) Fisichella
14) Trulli
15) Webber
16) Barrichello
17) Ralf
18) Davidson
19) Liuzzi
20) Wurz
21) Sato
22) Yamamoto

[Tazio]

1) Räikkönen
2) Alonso
3) Heidfeld
4) Massa
5) Kovalainen
6) Rosberg
7) Hamilton
8) Kubica
9) Button
10) Webber
11) Vettel
12) Trulli
13) Sutil
14) Fisichella
15) Coulthard
16) Liuzzi
17) Schumacher
18) Barrichello
19) Davidson
20) Wurz
21) Sato
22) Yamamoto

[jens]

All of you seem to think that Alonso and Räikkönen are still two of the best drivers? Well, those who have read my posts in the past probably know, what do I think about such statements...

Anyway. Hamilton, Alonso, Räikkönen, Massa, Heidfeld, Kubica, Kovalainen, Rosberg, Button, also Webber, Sutil, Vettel have all performed magnificently at the highest level. And others that I haven't mentioned, have had their sparks too. Lots of top drivers, and everyone except Yamamoto are at least good drivers. Have no idea, how to rank them...

[ioan]

1) Räikkönen
2) Massa
3) Heidfeld
4) Alonso
5) Vettel
6) Rosberg
7) Kovalainen
8) Sutil
9) Kubica
10) Hamilton
11) Schumacher
12) Sato

[RaikkonenRules]

1. Kimi Raikkonen
2. Lewis Hamilton
3. Nick Heidfeld
4. Fernado Alonso
5. Felipe Massa
6. Robert Kubica
7. Heikki Kovalainen
8. Mark Webber
9. Nico Rosberg
10. Jenson Button
11. David Coulthard
12. Sebastian Vettel
13. Giancarlo Fisichella
14. Jarno Trulli
15. Adrian Sutil
16. Alex Wurz
17. Ralf Schumacher
18. Vitantonio Luizzi
19. Takuma Sato
20. Anthony Davidson
21. Rubens Barrichello
22. Scott Speed
23. Markus Winkelhock
24. Christijan Albers
25. Sakon Yamamoto

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I have to put Button in the top 4 after his performance in the Chinese Grand Prix. For parts of the race he was setting fastest laps in that dog of a car and on the lap he changed on to dry tyres he was 5 seconds faster than any other driver who pitted at the same time. Plus he's handsomely outperformed any team-mate he has had in the past 5 years.

[Sleeper]

Based purely on this years performance and not any others:
1)Hamilton
2)Alonso
3)Kimi
4)Button
5)Massa
6)Rosberg
7)Heidfeld
8)Webber

The rest are really too inconsistent to come with an order.

[ShiftingGears]

1) Raikkonen
2) Alonso
3) Hamilton
4) Webber
5) Massa
6) Heidfeld
7) Button
8) Kubica

Not sure about Rosberg as he got whooped by Webber last year, and Wurz's performance may make him appear better than he is. Also Vettel isn't on the list because its pretty hard to judge his dry performances in the car he has. But he has brilliant pace in the wet, no doubt.
Raikkonen has made mistakes as Alonso and Hamilton and Massa have, but I don't think Massa is fast enough.

[akv89]

Based on this year alone:
1) Hamilton
2) Raikkonen
3) Alonso
4) Heidfeld
5) Massa
6) Sutil
7) Vettel
8) Rosberg
9) Kovaleinen
10) Kubica
11) Wurz
12) Webber
13) Coulthard
14) Button
15) Sato
16) Trulli
17) Fisichella
18) Liuzzi
19) Schumacher
20) Barrichello
21) Davidson
22) Yamamoto

[Ranger]

Tough one at the front. If I saw what other drivers could do in the front cars I'd probably have a re-think.

1. Raikkonen
=. Alonso
=. Hamilton
4. Heidfeld
5. Massa
6. Webber
7. Vettel
8. Button
9. Kovalainen
10. Rosberg
11. Kubica
=. Sutil
13. Coulthard
14. Liuzzi
15. Davidson
16. Sato
17. Trulli
18. Schumacher
19. Fisichella
20. Barrichello
21. Wurz
22. Yamamoto

Though some of those are mostly down to machinery and subsequent uninspiring performances in them.

[truefan72]

why bother,

those who like their drivers will place them higher, those who don't like certain drivers will place them lower purely out of bias, it should be obvious to everyone, based on this years results, who the top 4 drivers are ( in any order one subjectively sees fit) and the rest makes for interesting conversation.

[jens]

I think the results here show once again, how car dependant such rankings are. Only four out of 12, who have posted so far, have included a driver in their Top3, who isn't driving a McLaren or a Ferrari. Those two teams are clearly better than others at the moment, which has created an illusion like their drivers are driving better. In such rankings besides the phrase "driver is as good as his last race" also phrase like "driver is as good as his car" looks valid to describe the ratings.

I miss those early 80s, when we had a lot of competitive cars, which gave many drivers the chance to shine. Like in 1982 we had 11 different winners in 7 different cars. I think that if a similar survey was held on those days, then the ratings of several persons would have differed a lot more than they do in this particular topic. Another problem with this year's regulations (no tyre or engine "war") is that cars performances differ minimally on different circuits, which has given even less chances for lower teams (and their drivers) to shine. McLaren and Ferrari have taken all the podium positions in vast majority of races so far this year.

[osg]

1) Raikkonen
2) Alonso
3) Hamilton
4) Rosberg
5) Heidfeld
6) Massa
7) Kubica
8) Button
9) Vettel
10) Webber
11) Trulli
12) Fisichella
13) Kovalainen
14) Barrichello
15) Sutil
16) Davidson
17) Sato
18) Liuzzi
19) Shumacher
20) Coulthard
21) Wurz
22) Yamamoto

SPOT ON.

[jonny hurlock]

looks like a lot of people are rating yamamoto bottom of each list.

[markabilly]

The ranking seems too heavily influenced by the car ability for it to truly reflect real driver ability

Indeed this ranking may be impossible except in very general terms due to the inability to really seperate car from driver...

And even more importantly, to seperate car from car set up that enhances that particular driver's skills---so comparing team mate to team mate results may be very misleading :confused:

Personally, I think that in a car designed and set up to enhance the skills of each driver, that RS would always out run Trulli...but that would only be a guess..

[rohanweb]

I would rate the top 10 as follows:

1) Hamilton
2) Alonso
3) Raikkonen
4) Rosberg
5) Heidfeld
6) Kovalainen
7) Vettel
8) Button
9) Coulthard
10) Sutil

i just dont know how to rate the others in order..
Hamilton came in to action and giving all those faster,excellent,greatest,fanstastic drivers a real good run for thier money.......way or other by any means!
therefore LH earns the top spot!!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think the results here show once again, how car dependant such rankings are. Only four out of 12, who have posted so far, have included a driver in their Top3, who isn't driving a McLaren or a Ferrari. Those two teams are clearly better than others at the moment, which has created an illusion like their drivers are driving better. In such rankings besides the phrase "driver is as good as his last race" also phrase like "driver is as good as his car" looks valid to describe the ratings.
.

There could be a reason why those drivers are in the best teams though ;)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

1) Räikkönen
2) Massa
3) Heidfeld
4) Alonso
5) Vettel
6) Rosberg
7) Kovalainen
8) Sutil
9) Kubica
10) Hamilton
11) Schumacher
12) Sato

Ok this is a list of the best drivers not a list of those you support. You have put Massa ahead of Alonso :confused: and Sutil ahead of Hamilton :erm:

2005 Formula Three Euroseries Final Standings

1) Lewis Hamilton 172pts
2) Adrian Sutil 94pts

Then you have put Sato ahead of the likes of Button, Coulthard, Barichello, Fisichella etc..

[Sleeper]

I've noticed that people have put Vettel well up the standings based on two wet races, one of which he made a very stupid error in.

[ioan]

Ok this is a list of the best drivers not a list of those you support. You have put Massa ahead of Alonso :confused: and Sutil ahead of Hamilton :erm:

2005 Formula Three Euroseries Final Standings

1) Lewis Hamilton 172pts
2) Adrian Sutil 94pts

Hamilton didn't impress me at all given that he only had to drive one of the best cars on the grid, plus he managed to beach the car while entering the pits. :p :

Sutil however had some nice drives in that Spyker.


Then you have put Sato ahead of the likes of Button, Coulthard, Barichello, Fisichella etc..

I prefer Sato's hard racer style to any of those pussies you listed. :rolleyes:
BTW didn't DC do a Hamilton in Oz in 95 or 96? :p :

[ioan]

I've noticed that people have put Vettel well up the standings based on two wet races, one of which he made a very stupid error in.

Still he didn't manage to go of the pit entry road, while having only one wheel for direction.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I prefer Sato's hard racer style to any of those pussies you listed. :rolleyes:


We would all prefer to watch Sato over Button. But just because he's unpredictable. :p

However when they were both at BAR only the most blind person would say that Sato was faster. :rolleyes:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Hamilton didn't impress me at all given that he only had to drive one of the best cars on the grid, plus he managed to beach the car while entering the pits. :p :

Sutil however had some nice drives in that Spyker.



Sutil didn't even make it into the pit lane because he crashed into the TV camera on the pit entrance :p

[DazzlaF1]

Im basing my rankings not just on pure driving ability but also on making the most of the machinery given to them (hence why some drivers down the grid are lower down than some of the more established clan)

1) Hamilton
2) Raikkonen
3) Rosberg
4) Heidfeld
5) Kubica
6) Alonso
7) Kovalainen
8) Massa
9) Davidson
10) Sutil
11) Button
12) Vettel

[Cozzie]

Nice topic!

1. Alonso (two time world champ, enough said)
2. Massa (deserved to be 2007 champ all he needed was a reliable car)
3. Raikkonen (fastest driver not best, somewhat over-rated)
4. Hamilton (give it two years and he will be number 1)
5. Heidfeld (won't ever be champ but experienced and quick)
6. Kovalainen (just coming of age now, the future!)
7. Kubica (like Kovalainen, a future champ)
8. Rosberg (impressive but not A-Class just yet)
9. Trulli (better than his car but is passing his prime)
10. Davidson (can really turn it on when he needs to, will win races in future)
11. Button (out-performed team-mate and car in 2007 but time to be
champ is running out)
12. Sutil (thrashed hopeless team-mates but is super quick at times)
13. Coulthard (nearing the end of the road but still has speed)
14. Liuzzi (can be competitive but very unpredictable)
15. Barrichello (past his prime in 2004 but once a winner always a winner)
16. Sato (improved drastically but will never be any better than now)
17. Webber (over-rated and a whinger)
18. Vettel (a future star but that future is four years away)
19. Wurz (patches of brilliance but can not compete with young guns)
20. Fisichella (once thought he was one of the best, he has proved
otherwise, his time was up five years ago)
21. Schumacher (drove thanks to the last name, didn't work hard enough to
compete with the best.)
22. Yamamoto ($$$)

[Ranger]

Sutil didn't even make it into the pit lane because he crashed into the TV camera on the pit entrance :p

Dang, I forgot that! :D

[jens]

There could be a reason why those drivers are in the best teams though ;)

The "problem" is that there are clearly more good drivers than good cars and it's clear that all the good and capable drivers can't drive for top teams. But it doesn't mean that those, who haven't been given the chance, are in any way less capable than those, who have got the chance.


looks like a lot of people are rating yamamoto bottom of each list.

Surprise? :p :

[Tazio]

The "problem" is that there are clearly more good drivers than good cars and it's clear that all the good and capable drivers can't drive for top teams. But it doesn't mean that those, who haven't been given the chance, are in any way less capable than those, who have got the chance.



Surprise? :p :
Spot on!

[Bezza]

1. Raikkonen (easily)
2. Hamilton (clearly ahead of Alonso, they are in the same bloody car and its his first season)
3. Alonso
4. Button
5. Heidfeld
6. Rosberg
7. Coulthard
8. Massa (too inconsistent, weakest of the Ferrari and McLaren drivers)
9. Kovalainen
10. Fisichella
11. Trulli (purely on qualifying form)
12. Barrichello
13. Kubica
14. Webber
15. Vettel
16. Sutil
17. Davidson
18. Wurz
19. R Schumacher (an embarassment)
20. Liuzzi
21. Sato
22. Yamamoto

[keysersoze]

It's quite impossible to say who is better than who. To me, they can only be grouped by ability and what they bring to a team. So, here's mine, and the justifications:

Group 1: Alonso
The only driver who has proven to elevate a team by his talent and input; a driver who has truly worked his way to the top

Group 2: Kimi
Has won several races with two teams; demonstrably more talented than group 3 drivers

Group 3A: Massa, Hamilton, Kubica, Heidfeld
complete drivers who can qualify and race well--a tick of the clock quicker than group 3B drivers

Group 3B: Fisichella, Kovalainen, Rubens, Jenson, Rosberg
complete drivers who can qualify and race well, a tick slower than group 3A drivers

Group 4: Ralf, Trulli, Webber, DC, Wurz
inconsistent in some respect, either as a qualifier or racer (or in Webber's case, just luckless)

Group 5: Vettel, Sutil
probably the heir apparents to drivers who are currently in group three and four

Group 6: Davidson
For a driver who has been around this long, it's still difficult to tell how good he is; therefore, he gets his own group

Group 7: Liuzzi, Sato
reasonably quick as professional drivers go, but proabably not quick enough to ever warrant a top ride

Group 8: Yamamoto
too soon to tell, but my guess is he's not got it

[truefan72]

Hamilton didn't impress me at all given that he only had to drive one of the best cars on the grid, plus he managed to beach the car while entering the pits. :p :

LOL too funny Ion

obviously you don't like LH 'cause you really are not making sense

OK by your standards then, you would have to rate Alonso, Kimmi and Massa, waaay below Hamilton, as they all have more experience than him and all drive equally competitive machinery and are all behind him in the WDC standings right?
or does your theaory of "drving in the best car" only extend to the rookie who has managed to outshine all of them.

I'm starting to think your bias towards LH has absolutely nothing to do with his racing, or the fact that he's at McClaren,


Sutil however had some nice drives in that Spyker.

I like Sutil too, but give me a break. In the same race that you mention LH's pit lane incident, I recall Sutil himself crashing into the TV cameras on the pit entrance himself. So what exactly are you saying?

[ioan]

LOL too funny Ion

obviously you don't like LH 'cause you really are not making sense

OK by your standards then, you would have to rate Alonso, Kimmi and Massa, waaay below Hamilton, as they all have more experience than him and all drive equally competitive machinery and are all behind him in the WDC standings right?
or does your theaory of "drving in the best car" only extend to the rookie who has managed to outshine all of them.

I'm starting to think your bias towards LH has absolutely nothing to do with his racing, or the fact that he's at McClaren,

Hamilton had a car advantage over the Ferrari drivers (spying comes to mind here) and for that alone he has no right (IMO) to be better classed than Kimi and Felipe.

He also had FA's full know how at his disposal, not to mention the team backing him over the Spaniard, so I can't rank him better than Alonso either.

There is no way to prove he's better at driving an F1 car than any of the remaining drivers that I classed better than him, simply because it was my view of their abilities.

I won't get into biased pro or contra Hamilton discussions in this thread.

However I don't see why I don't have the right to classify the drivers in the order I see fit to do it :?:

[truefan72]

you have every right Ion,

and your explanation for the rankings is what is in question, not your right to make them.

you seem to make a judgment against Hamilton based on his pit lane incident in China while at the same time crediting Sutil for his drive with an even more clumsy pit lane incident in the same race

In fact your latest justification for LH inferiorty is all based on his pit lane incident in China, which you seem to hold up at the benchmark for his season long performance,

When you forget that Alonso crashed out in Japan, and both Massa and Kimi spun under yellow flag situations at the beginning of that race.

But as you say, LH pit lane incident in China is CLEAR proof of his lack of driving skill LOL :p :

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Kimi also spun in the pit lane at Nurbergring, but fortunately he spun onto the race track.

[RaikkonenRules]

looks like a lot of people are rating yamamoto bottom of each list.

And who can blame us ;)

[wedge]

Note - based on this year's performance, not whether I think such and such driver is better than the other

1. Hamilton (consistant top performances)
2. Alonso (struggled a bit to adapt in first half of season, a couple dodgy tyre choices in Spain and Turkey)
3. Räikkönen (fell asleep a few times too many for my liking)
4. Massa (pole-flag, job done but still needs to pull his finger out a bit more when racing in lower positions)
5. Heidfeld (solid job)
= Rosberg (has come on leaps and bounds since last year, and has out performed)
7. Kovalainen (struggled a bit but has out-performed Fisi)
8. Kubica (struggled but catching up with Nick better now that start of the year)
9. Button (struggled to adapt but has managed to out-perform the car)
10. Coulthard
= Webber (a bit hard to gauge because of bad reliability)
12. Sutil
= Vettel (outstanding, classy drivers)
14. Trulli (good but not good enough, IMO)
= Fisi (methinks he should retire now)
16. Davidson (some classy quali performances...)
17. Sato (... but he's scored the bulk of the points)
18. Liuzzi (struggle a bit against Speed, upped his game against Vettel)
19. Wurz (couple of excellent results but retirement was good choice overall)
20. Barrichello (is on his last legs, IMO)
= Ralf (should've retired last year, IMO)
22. Yamamoto

Based on talent:

Special ones - Alonso, Hamilton, Räikkönen

The others are aiming to become best of the rest.

[waitey]

Because of the car being such an important part in this sport, it is so hard to pick a number 1 in this era, Schumi was an easy pick 1 in his era but it is hard in this new era.

I would prefer to do it in groups.

Top Group (elite group):
Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, Massa - These guys are the ones winning races, yes they are in the best cars but they are in the best cars for a reason.

Kimi - One of the fastest if not the fastest driver out there, again been a tad unlucky but does he have the will to win as much as some of the others? He seems to go on waves of a time where he is concentrating and on his game, and then another wave where things don't seem to click. Will be world champion, a matter of when.

Massa - Again unlucky this season, still quite underrated I believe. Not quite sure with him, can see him growing and growing, but could also see him staying behind Kimi Alonso and Lewis, will have to wait and see. Still believe he is super quick and has a great passion and determination to win.

Alonso - Do not like the guy at all, think he is one of the luckiest drivers in the sport, whinges, complains, bad attitude. BUT, is still a very very very quick driver. However, I do not believe he deserves to be a 3 time world champion. He isn't as good as that yet in my opinion. Was very lucky to win those championships, BUT as I say is still super talented. Could go big places, but I find it interesting how he reacts once he is challenged and beaten.

Lewis - Well what can I say, has had a lot of luck and support this year, but the guy is obviously a gun. There's not much else to say about him other than the obvious. Will most likely be crowned world champion this weekend. Basically he could be anything, we really don't know how far he could go. Let's just wait and see.

Fast, future champs, best of the rest:
Kubica - I rate him the best of the rest, this guy is super quick, is only 22, and has been really quite unlucky compared to heidfeld, is 20 odd points down on heidfeld, but has missed a race obviously through injury, was running in fourth ahead of heidfeld in melbourne when gearbox failure, was winning in china when again retired, was penalised in Japan when shouldn't have been and would probably have been top four maybe a podium if not for being penalised, pit stop problems in Monza, Heidfeld has hit him on the first corner of both Sepang and Nurburgring and basically ended his race, so a lot of bad luck. Should have had much better results this year, but I do not believe it was his fault, for me next year if BMW keep improving and he has a bit of luck on his side, this guy will suprise everyone and get a win. Has aggression, is super quick, switched on and Hamilton has said himself, that he thinks kubica will be his biggest rival in the future. As he grows up more, and has more luck on his side, watch out. Future champ?

Rosberg - I believe he is on a similar level with Kubica, I see an awesome future in F1 if more teams can start winning, it would be great to see BMW step up with winning cars, and Rosberg find a winning team (perhaps McLaren in the future with Lewis?), and for Kovalainen to have the chance to win. We could have a great future in F1 with the likes of Kimi, Lewis, Alonso, Massa, Kubica, Rosberg, Hamilton and so forth. The guy is super talented, and despite Wurz snagging a podium etc, Rosberg has easily outperformed him all year and really done extremely well with the car underneath him. In a good car will also be fighting for a championship. Young, German, and seems to have an overall driver package that you can picture him just winning.

Kovalainen - After a shaky start, has really impressed me lately, the guy obviously has talent, proving that in the ROC, and was highly rated coming into the sport. The problem for his future is being able to find a good enough car to really have the chance. I believe in this guy, he just has to somehow get the opportunity to be in a winning car, not the fourth best car etc.

Heidfeld - This guy is still somewhat underrated. I truly believe in the guy, only problem is his age, he will finally probably get a winning car but will be in the later parts of his career. Then again, he has said he can see himself being round the sport for 7 more years or something. Has shown he can fight it with the big boys this year, him and Kubica are a perfect partnership. Heidfeld with his experience, and Kubica with youth and aggression. Again if BMW produce a winning car soon, this guy will be right up there ready to have a real shot at it. Deserves more credit.

Next bunch (still fast but unfortunately won't make much of their career)
I'm talking bout the Webber's, Button's etc. We know these guys can drive, but let's be honest, the window for Webber has passed basically, the guy is quick and always seems to outperforms his teammates but doesn't get much credit outside Australian fans, don't know why.

Coulthard again, super quick but time has passed him by and will be in the mid pack.

Button, sorry to a few people, the guy is quick, but I just think he has something missing, I don't know if I think he is weak, but there is just something that makes me think even if he was in a top team he wouldn't quite win the championship, he would win races here and there, but there's something about him thats lacking.

Trulli, again shows good pace, has won a race, but will be destined for the mid pack.

Fisi, a quick driver past his time and should probably retire now.

Rubens, who knows what would have happened if he was still at Ferrari now Schumi isn't there. Whatever, has had a great career but again will be destined mid pack.

NOT SURE ABOUT YET, NEED MORE TIME:

Vettel - the guy obviously has talent, but he is down in a bottom car, time will have to tell whether he can secure a good race seat for the future, you would think so, he is only 20, but he wouldn't want to stay down the bottom too long and risk his hype fading and him not being able to get more out of the car, then new drivers will snare good seats in better cars and the hype will be on him. Super talented and I hope we can see him in a winning car in the future, then we will be able to judge him more.

Sutil - Like Vettel, it's hard to judge someone in a car down the bottom. Is really quick but somewhat erratic and makes a lot of mistakes. However it shows he is pushing the car to the limits and he has easily outperformed all his team mates this year. If the opportunity arises for a new home higher up the grid, he should go after it at all costs. I really rate the guy, but again, this sport is about making the most of your opportunities. Also, any of the top guys would look good in a bottom car still like Sutil and Vettel do, so we really can't compare how good they are against the top guys yet.

Im tired and really can't be bothered talking bout the rest, there's not much to say really for the Liuzzi's, Wurz'z, Ralf's etc.

However been impressed with Sato and Davidson, but I believe they have limited opportunities.

Bring on 2008 and hopefully BMW and a few more teams will be able to step up to the plate and produce race winning cars.

[Roamy]

1) Raikkonen
2) Alonso
3) Rosberg
4) Hamilton
5) Massa
6) Button
7) Webber
8) Sutil
9) Heidfeld
10) Kovalainen
11) Vettel
12) Trulli
13) Fisichella
14) Barrichello
15) Kubica
16) Davidson
17) Sato
18) Liuzzi
19) Shumacher
20) Coulthard
21) Wurz
22) Yamamoto

Hey the italians are sucking - How did that happen!!

[F1boat]

1 Alonso
2 Raikkonen
3 Hamilton
4 Button
5 Massa
6 Vettel
7 Kubica
8 Coulthard
9 Heidfeld
10 Vettel

[ioan]

Kimi also spun in the pit lane at Nurbergring, but fortunately he spun onto the race track.

Kimi didn't spun at Nurburgring in the pit lane, he missed the pit lane and continued on the track.

[ioan]

you have every right Ion,

and your explanation for the rankings is what is in question, not your right to make them.

you seem to make a judgment against Hamilton based on his pit lane incident in China while at the same time crediting Sutil for his drive with an even more clumsy pit lane incident in the same race

In fact your latest justification for LH inferiorty is all based on his pit lane incident in China, which you seem to hold up at the benchmark for his season long performance,

When you forget that Alonso crashed out in Japan, and both Massa and Kimi spun under yellow flag situations at the beginning of that race.

But as you say, LH pit lane incident in China is CLEAR proof of his lack of driving skill LOL :p :

My judgement on Hamilton and his classification compared to others considered the spying story, all the obvious support he gets from the team over his team mate (and still he is only 4 points ahead of him), the fact that he only managed to stay calm when starting at the front.

As for comparing Hamilton's and Sutil's crashes in China I believe that pushing a Spyker to the limit isn't = to driving a McLaren, unless you believe that these cars are equal in terms of performance!

Hamilton never made it to the front from the back of the grid, unlike FA, Kimi and Felipe, and this is another reason why I won't classify him close to them.
And let's not forget that this year we had 2 races with changing weather conditions and he blew both. He isn't ready to be at the top of the F1 drivers list as simple as that.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Well if we a being technical ioan Lewis aquaplaned off in the pit lane the same way that Kimi did at the European GP. Or did Kimi use his superior skill to deliberately miss the pit lane :rolleyes:

[Mintexmemory]

1)Hamilton
2)Alonso
3)Raikkonen
4)Massa
5)Kovalainen
6)Heidfeld
7)Vettel
8)Button
9)Rosberg
10)Sutil
11)Kubica
12)Coulthard
13)Fisichella
14)Webber
15) Barrichello
16) Trulli
17) Wurz
18) Davidson
19) Sato
20) Liuzzi
21) Schumacher
22) Yamamoto

Back in the dim and distant past guys in non-competitive F1 cars did other things like, World Sports car Championship, F2, Can-Am so you could still see if someone had 'it' even though they weren't front runners in F1.
Pedro Rodriguez, Jo Siffert, Ronnie Peterson (pre-Lotus) and even Jochen Rindt before his WDC year showed how good they were by competing in other forms of competition. There is no such yardstick now, which is why only in wet races can you see a little of how a level playing field would look (and still the technology usually wins).

[pino]

Please let's rank this year's F1 drivers only, thank you :)

[ioan]

Well if we a being technical ioan Lewis aquaplaned off in the pit lane the same way that Kimi did at the European GP. Or did Kimi use his superior skill to deliberately miss the pit lane :rolleyes:

For some reason you seem to miss the point: Kimi kept it out of the kitty litter, Hamilton didn't.

[Garry Walker]

He isn't ready to be at the top of the F1 drivers list as simple as that.
Whilst I agree with you on some issues, then your stance on the Golden Boy is wrong. I am far from a fan of him, but you are being stupid about it. Ranking him in the 10th place is not normal

He has driven well this year, been consistent and always there in qualifying. I dont think he is the best driver, but he is in the group of the best drivers.

It is impossible to know who is the best, but I will rank them in groups.

1) Kimi, Felipe, Alonso, Rosberg, Hamilton
2) Webber, Kubica, Heidfeld
3) Button, Ralf, trulli
4) Fisichella, Coulthard, Kovalainen, Barrichello, Sutil
5) Vettel, Liuzzi, Davidson, Sato, Wurz
6) Yamamoto

[ioan]

Whilst I agree with you on some issues, then your stance on the Golden Boy is wrong. I am far from a fan of him, but you are being stupid about it. Ranking him in the 10th place is not normal

He has driven well this year, been consistent and always there in qualifying. I dont think he is the best driver, but he is in the group of the best drivers.

It is impossible to know who is the best, but I will rank them in groups.

1) Kimi, Felipe, Alonso, Rosberg, Hamilton
2) Webber, Kubica, Heidfeld
3) Button, Ralf, trulli
4) Fisichella, Coulthard, Kovalainen, Barrichello, Sutil
5) Vettel, Liuzzi, Davidson, Sato, Wurz
6) Yamamoto

I have no reason to rank him better than Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, Heidfeld or Rosberg. Given the car he had he managed to get better results than these drivers but I doubt that he is better as he lacks in many departments compared to them.
So after counting Kimi, Felipe and Alonso + the 5 drivers I mentioned above he would have been 9th on my list. As I have a soft spot for Sutil who managed to outqualify Hamilton in Monaco in GP2 I also ranked him above Hamilton who was left with 10th place.

People might like it or they might not, but this is how I think about it.

[Garry Walker]

I have no reason to rank him better than Kovalainen, Kubica, Vettel, Heidfeld or Rosberg. Given the car he had he managed to get better results than these drivers but I doubt that he is better as he lacks in many departments compared to them.
So after counting Kimi, Felipe and Alonso + the 5 drivers I mentioned above he would have been 9th on my list. As I have a soft spot for Sutil who managed to outqualify Hamilton in Monaco in GP2 I also ranked him above Hamilton who was left with 10th place.
Where is he lacking compared to Vettel? Vettel in dry is at the moment unable to go faster than Liuzzi and Liuzzi is no superstar.
Where is he lacking compared to Kubica or Kovalainen? Heidfeld? Elaborate on that.

[ioan]

Where is he lacking compared to Vettel? Vettel in dry is at the moment unable to go faster than Liuzzi and Liuzzi is no superstar.

He is lacking in changing conditions.
Plus you have no idea if Liuzzi is better than Hamilton or worse, so dry track comparison between Vettel and Hamilton has little realism to it using Liuzzi as a measure.


Where is he lacking compared to Kubica or Kovalainen? Heidfeld? Elaborate on that.

Experience, 2 races with changing conditions and he was out of the track for good both times.

[Sleeper]

As I have a soft spot for Sutil who managed to outqualify Hamilton in Monaco in GP2 I also ranked him above Hamilton who was left with 10th place.

People might like it or they might not, but this is how I think about it.
You sure about that, I dont remember Sutil ever driving a GP2 car?

[Wilderness]

1) Raikkonen, Alonso, Kovalainen, Hamilton and Massa
2) Heidfeld, Webber, Kubica and Rosberg
3) Sutil, Trulli, Fisichella, Vettel and Coulthard
4) Button, Sato, Liuzzi and Davidson
5) Barrichello, Wurz and Schumacher
.
.
.
&#8734 ;) Yamamoto

Listed in no particular order within each bracket.

[ArrowsFA1]

As I have a soft spot for Sutil who managed to outqualify Hamilton in Monaco in GP2...
ioan, your reasoning is fatally flawed. Hamilton qualified on pole in the 2006 GP2 Monaco event. Sutil was not on the grid.

[ioan]

ioan, your reasoning is fatally flawed. Hamilton qualified on pole in the 2006 GP2 Monaco event. Sutil was not on the grid.

Than it was in some other series. My memory isn't 100% but what does that have with my reasoning?

[ioan]

You sure about that, I dont remember Sutil ever driving a GP2 car?

Must be another motorsport series before GP2 than. My mem seems to play some tricks.

[leopard]

1 Alonso
2 Raikkonen
3 Hamilton
4 Button
5 Massa
6 Vettel
7 Kubica
8 Coulthard
9 Heidfeld
10 Vettel

Are you sure this is not hierarchy of drivers you wish to win? ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Than it was in some other series. My memory isn't 100% but what does that have with my reasoning?
Because you rate Sutil ahead of Hamilton in your rankings based on an erroneous statement.

You're right that it was another series - Hamilton & Sutil raced together in the 2005 F3 Euroseries, but even then your facts are wrong. At Monaco Hamilton outqualified Sutil (they were both racing for the ASM team), and beat him in both of the races.

http://www.f3euroseries.com

[ioan]

Because you rate Sutil ahead of Hamilton in your rankings based on an erroneous statement.

You're right that it was another series - Hamilton & Sutil raced together in the 2005 F3 Euroseries, but even then your facts are wrong. At Monaco Hamilton outqualified Sutil (they were both racing for the ASM team), and beat him in both of the races.

http://www.f3euroseries.com

After the 3rd practice in Monaco it was reported on one of the F1 sites that he previously did outqualify Hamilton in Monaco. They might be wrong or not, I took it for good.

If it makes you feel better than I based my reasoning on a wrong information.

That however doesn't have anything to do with the reasoning that starts from that point.

Of course you could have pointed that out as Sleeper did, and I a acknowledge that I can be wrong based on your proof. You choose however to attack my reasoning instead.

Anyway I can live with that too.

PS: I'll rate Hamilton tenth on my list to make you feel better! ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

If it makes you feel better than I based my reasoning on a wrong information...You choose however to attack my reasoning instead.
ioan, it doesn't make me "feel better"; not am I "attacking" you and I wish for once you would stop putting things in those terms.

I don't agree with you rating Hamilton so low simply because I think his performances clearly show he is, at the very least, a top 4 driver. But you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.

[ioan]

ioan, it doesn't make me "feel better"; not am I "attacking" you and I wish for once you would stop putting things in those terms.

I don't agree with you rating Hamilton so low simply because I think his performances clearly show he is, at the very least, a top 4 driver. But you are perfectly entitled to your opinion.

I can't rate him higher after he got it wrong twice out of two occasions under changing track conditions, and drove very dangerously in the other wet race.
Those are the races where talent can't make a difference and it made a difference for many (Vettel, Kovalainen, Webber, Kubica, Kimi, Felipe all were impressive to say the least in those wet races compared to what Hamilton achieved).

[jas123f1]

Räikkönen
Alonso / Massa
Rosberg
Hamilton / Vettel
Kovalainen / Kubica
Heidfeld
Button / Fisi
Trulli
Davidson / Webber
Barrichello / Coulthard
Liuzzi / Sutil / Sato /
Wurz / Ralf / Yamamoto ..

That's what i'm thinking .. :)

[woody2goody]

I will attempt to give an explanation for my rankings as well. These are not just based on this season. Also I have included a 'career moment' for each driver as the best moment of their F1 career so far.



1. Fernando Alonso - As much as I used to love the guy and now I really dislike him, on his day he is still the best. Very consistent and very fast. Needs to sort out his attitude which has deteriorated rapidly. Career moment: fending off Michael Schumacher to win his two titles.

2. Kimi Raikkonen - Really really quick, can get everything from his car. Has started to provide more consistency and professionalism in '07. He is becoming the total package as a Formula One driver. Will surely win a title before his career is over. Career moment: beating Fisichella at Suzuka in '05 against all the odds.

3. Lewis Hamilton - Despite a brilliant rookie season, Alonso still has the edge on pace, but not by much. Lewis still has a lot of time to improve and I'm sure he will get better year by year. His error in China could have easily been prevented just by slowing right down. Fearless overtaker, too :) Career moment: Canada '07, kept his head brilliantly in a crazy race.

4. Jenson Button - Definitely one of the best, even though he has had to cope with a pretty bad car throughout 2007. Excellent driving style and even though people questioned him as a racer, he can overtake with the best of them. Now just needs an excellent car. Still a potential champion, and will shine in '08 without TC. Career moment: his brilliant win in hungary after starting 14th on the grid.

5. Nick Heidfeld - Like Button, an excellent car is needed for Nick to reach the top of the sport. The German is a really solid driver and I think he is just as quick if not quicker than Kubica. Has been the only driver to challenge the top 2 teams this season. Career moment: Great drive to finish 3rd in Bahrain '07 and dispatching Alonso in the process.

6. Felipe Massa - Has transformed into a legitimate title challenger at ferrari. Has toned the mistakes down over the last two years and is bloody quick to boot. Dominates from pole position. Will be a contender again in '08. Career moment: crushing the opposition in the 2006 Brazilian GP from pole.

7. Heikki Kovalainen - After a difficult start, Kovy has shown the speed that he is really capable of. Is older than Lewis/Nico/Vettel etc so has more experience. he is pretty consistent and has really impressed in the last few weeks. Career moment: second in tough conditions at Fuji, not to mention beating MS and loeb at the RoC in '05 i think.

8. David Coulthard - This may surprise a few people, but DC has shown that he is an excellent all-round racer, and his talent always shines through in the dificult races. After all, he has won 13 grands prix. Career moment: Came through to beat Schumi in treacherous conditions in Brazil in '01.

9. Robert Kubica - Nearly there, but not quite yet. An excellent driver, but over-hyped after an excellent end to 2006. Is very quick and a likeable guy too, but is prone to disappearing into the background at times. Career moment: coming back from the horror of montreal to earn 4th place at Magny-Cours.

10. Nico Rosberg - Has really shone this season. Williams have been more consistent this year, and Rosberg has been a regular visitor to the points in '07. Outclassed team-mate Wurz and several strong drives have made him a candidate to go to McLaren next year. career moment: 7th and fastest lap in bahrain '06 after a frst lap collision.

11. Giancarlo Fisichella - Used to be touted as one of the best. He still can be, but is he too nice for his own good? Without electronic aids in '08 will either re-make or break Fisi's career. Was strong in early part of '07 but has been anonymous since the summer. Career moment: Brilliant against-the-odds victory at interlagos in 2003.

12. Jarno Trulli - Probably better than I have ranked him, but just hasn't had the equipment for a while to prove it. Brilliant qualifier but surely the unluckiest man in Grand Prix racing. Stylish and still capable of being a winner. career moment: dominant maiden victory beating Button at Monaco, 2004.

13. Anthony Davidson - A great talent but nobody has probably noticed seen as he never seems to be on the TV coverage. Scintillating in testing for BAR a few years ago and has been unlucky this year, because when he has been on it, the Aguri-Honda hasn't. Career moment: Probably making the top 10 shootout for Super Aguri this season.

14. Takuma Sato - Bloody quick on his day, and always tries his best. Taku has a habit of making things happen, such as when he dispatched Alonso and raikkonen at canada this year. keeps it on the road a lot more than he used to. Legend. Career moment: Indianapolis 2004: great drive to his only podium so far taking it to ferrari.

15. Mark Webber - yes, he is down low on my list. He just doesn't impress me that much despite the fact I quite like the guy. Was brilliant to get a podium in Germany, but just doesn't show many special performances compared to Coulthard who seems to edge him on pace as well. Career moment: the aforementioned podium at the Nurburgring in '07.

16. Adrian Sutil - Has proved himself to be a very good find this year. The German has bags of pace, but has been erratic similar to Sato and Massa in their rookie seasons. If he keeps it on the track he can do great things in F1. Career moment: scoring a point in the tricky japanese grand prix.

17. Rubens Barrichello - He will surely pass Patrese for the most GP starts next year. Has had a poor season and seems to have lost a couple of tenths over the last couple of years. However Rubens is so professional and will always do his best for himself and his team. Career moment: winning in wet/dry conditions from the back of the grid at hockenheim in 2000.

18. Vitantonio Liuzzi - Has been quietly getting on with his job this year, and although still prone to errors, talk of an '08 Williams drive must mean he has been noticed. Career moment: Seventh place in the Chinese grand prix with a strong wet/dry performance.

19. Sebastian Vettel - Will be very good I'm sure but his lack of experience means I'm ranking him quite low down. Is very quick though and has shown he is good in the wet. next season could be the making of him. Career moment: 4th place in Shanghai after the nightmare of Fuji.

20. Ralf Schumacher - Very quick on his day but too inconsistent and probably not motivated enough to remain in F1. Has had his moment in the sun I think. career moment: brilliant back-to-back victories in the summer of 2003.

21. Alexander Wurz - Once considered on of the brightest talents in F1, it has been a tough season for the Austrian, who has decided to retire from racing. Couldn't handle Nico rosberg, however still a great development driver, and his Canada podium underlined his everlasting class. career moment: 3rd at Silverstone in 1997 in only his second grand prix.

22. Sakon Yamamoto - the jury is still out on the Japanese driver, and a lack of testing can't have helped his progress. Has struggled since coming in but showed last year that he improved after a few races. Needs a full season for people to really see what he can do. career moment: seventh-fastest lap in the '06 season finale at interlagos.

23. Kazuki Nakajima - ? A well known F1 name returns this weekend at interlagos. He looks a decent prospect although he probably won't be considered for a race seat. Not unless he has a stormer on sunday. career moment: this weekend...

Let me know whether u agree or disagree with my rankings.

[jens]

:up: to woody2goody! I like the fact that you have been positive about all the drivers in your ranking, no matter where they place there.

It's of course always debatable, where one of another driver should place, but as it's all subjective and it's hard to know the whole truth, then it's impossible to say that it is totally wrong or totally right.

Probably that's why I don't prefer to rank drivers, because so many of them are really good and that means that I have to put some of them to the lower half of the list and conscience simply doesn't like to do that...

[woody2goody]

Cheers jens, I think in most sports it is almost impossible to accurately rate or rank athletes, but with F1 especially it is criminal to rank them based on the current season alone. Yes their current ability is a big part of that, but you have to take into account equipment and their previous seasons too to get a good idea of their true ability.

it makes me curious to see whether a single-make F1 could work and prove to us who the best really is.

Then every ability of the driver could be taken into account, speed, set-up skills, feedback, it would all make a difference.

[FIA]

1. Hamilton
2. Raikkonen
3. Alonso
4. Massa
5. Kubica
6. Button
7. Heidfeld
8. Rosberg
9. Kovalainen
10. Webber
11. Vettel
12. Sutil
13. Trulli
14. Sato
15. Liuzzi
16. Davidson
17. Coulthard
18. Barrichello
19. Schumacher
20. Fisichella
21. Speed
22. Wurz
23. Yamamoto
24. Albers

[F1boat]

Are you sure this is not hierarchy of drivers you wish to win? ;)

In that case Lewis would be 22nd.

[Garry Walker]

He is lacking in changing conditions.
No, not really. He is very fast in changing conditions, he was faster than Alonso last time out.


Plus you have no idea if Liuzzi is better than Hamilton or worse,
you better be kidding here.



so dry track comparison between Vettel and Hamilton has little realism to it using Liuzzi as a measure.
So you are trying to tell me, with a straight face, that Liuzzi can be rated at golden Boys level in dry. You know, the same guy who couldnt beat DC or Speed against a guy who is faster than 2 time world champ. Right.


Experience, 2 races with changing conditions and he was out of the track for good both times. Due to bad luck at the Ring. His pace there was at least as quick as Alonsos. Sure China was his fault, but everyone makes mistakes.

[ioan]

No, not really. He is very fast in changing conditions, he was faster than Alonso last time out.

That's why he was losing a few seconds a lap when the track started to dry. because he was good in changing conditions, good enough to destroy his tires while sliding around the track in his usual karting style.

[truefan72]

That's why he was losing a few seconds a lap when the track started to dry. because he was good in changing conditions, good enough to destroy his tires while sliding around the track in his usual karting style.

LOL
at the very worst. LH will finish 3rd in his maiden F1 season.
2. wasn't China his first DNF of the season?

Did you watch the same race we ALL did, did you not see the pit stop strategy and when they came in to pit?

Actually, do tell,
who had pole in China,
...and who was pulling away form the competition during the race,

Who won Japan in appalling conditions,
who came back to finish 10th from dead last in germany,
who used his "karting skills" to overcome a blown tyre and still score points
who podiumed in the first 9 races, and 12 of 16 so far
who has the most poles
heck, who is leading the WDC going into the last race, and had the chance of wrapping it up in the penultimate race

give it a break Ion,

your reasoning is making no sense

[ioan]

LOL
at the very worst. LH will finish 3rd in his maiden F1 season.
2. wasn't China his first DNF of the season?

Did you watch the same race we ALL did, did you not see the pit stop strategy and when they came in to pit?

Actually, do tell,
who had pole in China,
...and who was pulling away form the competition during the race,

Who won Japan in appalling conditions,
who came back to finish 10th from dead last in germany,
who used his "karting skills" to overcome a blown tyre and still score points
who podiumed in the first 9 races, and 12 of 16 so far
who has the most poles
heck, who is leading the WDC going into the last race, and had the chance of wrapping it up in the penultimate race

give it a break Ion,

your reasoning is making no sense

Who's Ion?

If by chance you are talking to me than first learn to spell and than we'll see. :rolleyes:

[truefan72]

LOL
at the very worst. LH will finish 3rd in his maiden F1 season.
2. wasn't China his first DNF of the season?

Did you watch the same race we ALL did, did you not see the pit stop strategy and when they came in to pit?

Actually, do tell,
who had pole in China,
...and who was pulling away form the competition during the race,

Who won Japan in appalling conditions,
who came back to finish 10th from dead last in germany,
who used his "karting skills" to overcome a blown tyre and still score points
who podiumed in the first 9 races, and 12 of 16 so far
who has the most poles
heck, who is leading the WDC going into the last race, and had the chance of wrapping it up in the penultimate race

give it a break Ioan,

your reasoning is making no sense


better?
maybe now you can see the points more clearly instead of fixating on a typo,
unless that's about all you really have to say :)

but seriousy IOAN,
let's rank drivers honestly not by personal dislikes

I'm no alonso fan but I rank him first, then kimi, then hamilton
I can be objective when asked to,
can you?

[ioan]

LOL
at the very worst. LH will finish 3rd in his maiden F1 season.
2. wasn't China his first DNF of the season?

Did you watch the same race we ALL did, did you not see the pit stop strategy and when they came in to pit?

Actually, do tell,
who had pole in China,
...and who was pulling away form the competition during the race,

Who won Japan in appalling conditions,
who came back to finish 10th from dead last in germany,
who used his "karting skills" to overcome a blown tyre and still score points
who podiumed in the first 9 races, and 12 of 16 so far
who has the most poles
heck, who is leading the WDC going into the last race, and had the chance of wrapping it up in the penultimate race

give it a break Ioan,

your reasoning is making no sense


better?
maybe now you can see the points more clearly instead of fixating on a typo,
unless that's about all you really have to say :)

but seriousy IOAN,
let's rank drivers honestly not by personal dislikes

I'm no alonso fan but I rank him first, then kimi, then hamilton
I can be objective when asked to,
can you?

If it makes you pleasure than keep pushing it.

[markabilly]

.


you better be kidding here.


So you are trying to tell me, with a straight face, that Liuzzi can be rated at golden Boys level in dry. You know, the same guy who couldnt beat DC or Speed against a guy who is faster than 2 time world champ. Right.

.
All that means is that Scott not Speed was BETTER than golden boy but that Liuzzi was ONLY as good as golden boy but notas good as Speed.........we wuz robbed :bigcry:

Oh where oh where has my hero gone?? and no investigation either....

[BDunnell]

:up: to woody2goody! I like the fact that you have been positive about all the drivers in your ranking, no matter where they place there.

It's of course always debatable, where one of another driver should place, but as it's all subjective and it's hard to know the whole truth, then it's impossible to say that it is totally wrong or totally right.

Probably that's why I don't prefer to rank drivers, because so many of them are really good and that means that I have to put some of them to the lower half of the list and conscience simply doesn't like to do that...

:up:

Neither was his, or your, analysis based on factors other than the performances we have seen this season.

[BDunnell]

but seriousy IOAN,
let's rank drivers honestly not by personal dislikes

I'm no alonso fan but I rank him first, then kimi, then hamilton
I can be objective when asked to,
can you?

I agree.

[keysersoze]

I will attempt to give an explanation for my rankings as well. These are not just based on this season. Also I have included a 'career moment' for each driver as the best moment of their F1 career so far.



1. Fernando Alonso - As much as I used to love the guy and now I really dislike him, on his day he is still the best. Very consistent and very fast. Needs to sort out his attitude which has deteriorated rapidly. Career moment: fending off Michael Schumacher to win his two titles.

2. Kimi Raikkonen - Really really quick, can get everything from his car. Has started to provide more consistency and professionalism in '07. He is becoming the total package as a Formula One driver. Will surely win a title before his career is over. Career moment: beating Fisichella at Suzuka in '05 against all the odds.

3. Lewis Hamilton - Despite a brilliant rookie season, Alonso still has the edge on pace, but not by much. Lewis still has a lot of time to improve and I'm sure he will get better year by year. His error in China could have easily been prevented just by slowing right down. Fearless overtaker, too :) Career moment: Canada '07, kept his head brilliantly in a crazy race.

4. Jenson Button - Definitely one of the best, even though he has had to cope with a pretty bad car throughout 2007. Excellent driving style and even though people questioned him as a racer, he can overtake with the best of them. Now just needs an excellent car. Still a potential champion, and will shine in '08 without TC. Career moment: his brilliant win in hungary after starting 14th on the grid.

5. Nick Heidfeld - Like Button, an excellent car is needed for Nick to reach the top of the sport. The German is a really solid driver and I think he is just as quick if not quicker than Kubica. Has been the only driver to challenge the top 2 teams this season. Career moment: Great drive to finish 3rd in Bahrain '07 and dispatching Alonso in the process.

6. Felipe Massa - Has transformed into a legitimate title challenger at ferrari. Has toned the mistakes down over the last two years and is bloody quick to boot. Dominates from pole position. Will be a contender again in '08. Career moment: crushing the opposition in the 2006 Brazilian GP from pole.

7. Heikki Kovalainen - After a difficult start, Kovy has shown the speed that he is really capable of. Is older than Lewis/Nico/Vettel etc so has more experience. he is pretty consistent and has really impressed in the last few weeks. Career moment: second in tough conditions at Fuji, not to mention beating MS and loeb at the RoC in '05 i think.

8. David Coulthard - This may surprise a few people, but DC has shown that he is an excellent all-round racer, and his talent always shines through in the dificult races. After all, he has won 13 grands prix. Career moment: Came through to beat Schumi in treacherous conditions in Brazil in '01.

9. Robert Kubica - Nearly there, but not quite yet. An excellent driver, but over-hyped after an excellent end to 2006. Is very quick and a likeable guy too, but is prone to disappearing into the background at times. Career moment: coming back from the horror of montreal to earn 4th place at Magny-Cours.

10. Nico Rosberg - Has really shone this season. Williams have been more consistent this year, and Rosberg has been a regular visitor to the points in '07. Outclassed team-mate Wurz and several strong drives have made him a candidate to go to McLaren next year. career moment: 7th and fastest lap in bahrain '06 after a frst lap collision.

11. Giancarlo Fisichella - Used to be touted as one of the best. He still can be, but is he too nice for his own good? Without electronic aids in '08 will either re-make or break Fisi's career. Was strong in early part of '07 but has been anonymous since the summer. Career moment: Brilliant against-the-odds victory at interlagos in 2003.

12. Jarno Trulli - Probably better than I have ranked him, but just hasn't had the equipment for a while to prove it. Brilliant qualifier but surely the unluckiest man in Grand Prix racing. Stylish and still capable of being a winner. career moment: dominant maiden victory beating Button at Monaco, 2004.

13. Anthony Davidson - A great talent but nobody has probably noticed seen as he never seems to be on the TV coverage. Scintillating in testing for BAR a few years ago and has been unlucky this year, because when he has been on it, the Aguri-Honda hasn't. Career moment: Probably making the top 10 shootout for Super Aguri this season.

14. Takuma Sato - Bloody quick on his day, and always tries his best. Taku has a habit of making things happen, such as when he dispatched Alonso and raikkonen at canada this year. keeps it on the road a lot more than he used to. Legend. Career moment: Indianapolis 2004: great drive to his only podium so far taking it to ferrari.

15. Mark Webber - yes, he is down low on my list. He just doesn't impress me that much despite the fact I quite like the guy. Was brilliant to get a podium in Germany, but just doesn't show many special performances compared to Coulthard who seems to edge him on pace as well. Career moment: the aforementioned podium at the Nurburgring in '07.

16. Adrian Sutil - Has proved himself to be a very good find this year. The German has bags of pace, but has been erratic similar to Sato and Massa in their rookie seasons. If he keeps it on the track he can do great things in F1. Career moment: scoring a point in the tricky japanese grand prix.

17. Rubens Barrichello - He will surely pass Patrese for the most GP starts next year. Has had a poor season and seems to have lost a couple of tenths over the last couple of years. However Rubens is so professional and will always do his best for himself and his team. Career moment: winning in wet/dry conditions from the back of the grid at hockenheim in 2000.

18. Vitantonio Liuzzi - Has been quietly getting on with his job this year, and although still prone to errors, talk of an '08 Williams drive must mean he has been noticed. Career moment: Seventh place in the Chinese grand prix with a strong wet/dry performance.

19. Sebastian Vettel - Will be very good I'm sure but his lack of experience means I'm ranking him quite low down. Is very quick though and has shown he is good in the wet. next season could be the making of him. Career moment: 4th place in Shanghai after the nightmare of Fuji.

20. Ralf Schumacher - Very quick on his day but too inconsistent and probably not motivated enough to remain in F1. Has had his moment in the sun I think. career moment: brilliant back-to-back victories in the summer of 2003.

21. Alexander Wurz - Once considered on of the brightest talents in F1, it has been a tough season for the Austrian, who has decided to retire from racing. Couldn't handle Nico rosberg, however still a great development driver, and his Canada podium underlined his everlasting class. career moment: 3rd at Silverstone in 1997 in only his second grand prix.

22. Sakon Yamamoto - the jury is still out on the Japanese driver, and a lack of testing can't have helped his progress. Has struggled since coming in but showed last year that he improved after a few races. Needs a full season for people to really see what he can do. career moment: seventh-fastest lap in the '06 season finale at interlagos.

23. Kazuki Nakajima - ? A well known F1 name returns this weekend at interlagos. He looks a decent prospect although he probably won't be considered for a race seat. Not unless he has a stormer on sunday. career moment: this weekend...

Let me know whether u agree or disagree with my rankings.

Teammates Button and Barrichello 13 places apart?

[pino]

Who's Ion?

If by chance you are talking to me than first learn to spell and than we'll see. :rolleyes:

ioan, I am sure that was just a spelling-mistake, why you have to turn each post into a fight ? :crazy:

[ioan]

ioan, I am sure that was just a spelling-mistake, why you have to turn each post into a fight ? :crazy:

Take you time to look at his previous posts addressed to me and you'll see that it is the same "spelling-mistake" every time. :s

[markabilly]

I will attempt to give an explanation for my rankings as well. These are not just based on this season. Also I have included a 'career moment' for each driver as the best moment of their F1 career so far.



1. Fernando Alonso - As much as I used to love the guy and now I really dislike him, on his day he is still the best. Very consistent and very fast. Needs to sort out his attitude which has deteriorated rapidly. Career moment: fending off Michael Schumacher to win his two titles.

2. Kimi Raikkonen - Really really quick, can get everything from his car. Has started to provide more consistency and professionalism in '07. He is becoming the total package as a Formula One driver. Will surely win a title before his career is over. Career moment: beating Fisichella at Suzuka in '05 against all the odds.

3. Lewis Hamilton - Despite a brilliant rookie season, Alonso still has the edge on pace, but not by much. Lewis still has a lot of time to improve and I'm sure he will get better year by year. His error in China could have easily been prevented just by slowing right down. Fearless overtaker, too :) Career moment: Canada '07, kept his head brilliantly in a crazy race.

4. Jenson Button - Definitely one of the best, even though he has had to cope with a pretty bad car throughout 2007. Excellent driving style and even though people questioned him as a racer, he can overtake with the best of them. Now just needs an excellent car. Still a potential champion, and will shine in '08 without TC. Career moment: his brilliant win in hungary after starting 14th on the grid.

5. Nick Heidfeld - Like Button, an excellent car is needed for Nick to reach the top of the sport. The German is a really solid driver and I think he is just as quick if not quicker than Kubica. Has been the only driver to challenge the top 2 teams this season. Career moment: Great drive to finish 3rd in Bahrain '07 and dispatching Alonso in the process.

6. Felipe Massa - Has transformed into a legitimate title challenger at ferrari. Has toned the mistakes down over the last two years and is bloody quick to boot. Dominates from pole position. Will be a contender again in '08. Career moment: crushing the opposition in the 2006 Brazilian GP from pole.

7. Heikki Kovalainen - After a difficult start, Kovy has shown the speed that he is really capable of. Is older than Lewis/Nico/Vettel etc so has more experience. he is pretty consistent and has really impressed in the last few weeks. Career moment: second in tough conditions at Fuji, not to mention beating MS and loeb at the RoC in '05 i think.

8. David Coulthard - This may surprise a few people, but DC has shown that he is an excellent all-round racer, and his talent always shines through in the dificult races. After all, he has won 13 grands prix. Career moment: Came through to beat Schumi in treacherous conditions in Brazil in '01.

9. Robert Kubica - Nearly there, but not quite yet. An excellent driver, but over-hyped after an excellent end to 2006. Is very quick and a likeable guy too, but is prone to disappearing into the background at times. Career moment: coming back from the horror of montreal to earn 4th place at Magny-Cours.

10. Nico Rosberg - Has really shone this season. Williams have been more consistent this year, and Rosberg has been a regular visitor to the points in '07. Outclassed team-mate Wurz and several strong drives have made him a candidate to go to McLaren next year. career moment: 7th and fastest lap in bahrain '06 after a frst lap collision.

11. Giancarlo Fisichella - Used to be touted as one of the best. He still can be, but is he too nice for his own good? Without electronic aids in '08 will either re-make or break Fisi's career. Was strong in early part of '07 but has been anonymous since the summer. Career moment: Brilliant against-the-odds victory at interlagos in 2003.

12. Jarno Trulli - Probably better than I have ranked him, but just hasn't had the equipment for a while to prove it. Brilliant qualifier but surely the unluckiest man in Grand Prix racing. Stylish and still capable of being a winner. career moment: dominant maiden victory beating Button at Monaco, 2004.

13. Anthony Davidson - A great talent but nobody has probably noticed seen as he never seems to be on the TV coverage. Scintillating in testing for BAR a few years ago and has been unlucky this year, because when he has been on it, the Aguri-Honda hasn't. Career moment: Probably making the top 10 shootout for Super Aguri this season.

14. Takuma Sato - Bloody quick on his day, and always tries his best. Taku has a habit of making things happen, such as when he dispatched Alonso and raikkonen at canada this year. keeps it on the road a lot more than he used to. Legend. Career moment: Indianapolis 2004: great drive to his only podium so far taking it to ferrari.

15. Mark Webber - yes, he is down low on my list. He just doesn't impress me that much despite the fact I quite like the guy. Was brilliant to get a podium in Germany, but just doesn't show many special performances compared to Coulthard who seems to edge him on pace as well. Career moment: the aforementioned podium at the Nurburgring in '07.

16. Adrian Sutil - Has proved himself to be a very good find this year. The German has bags of pace, but has been erratic similar to Sato and Massa in their rookie seasons. If he keeps it on the track he can do great things in F1. Career moment: scoring a point in the tricky japanese grand prix.

17. Rubens Barrichello - He will surely pass Patrese for the most GP starts next year. Has had a poor season and seems to have lost a couple of tenths over the last couple of years. However Rubens is so professional and will always do his best for himself and his team. Career moment: winning in wet/dry conditions from the back of the grid at hockenheim in 2000.

18. Vitantonio Liuzzi - Has been quietly getting on with his job this year, and although still prone to errors, talk of an '08 Williams drive must mean he has been noticed. Career moment: Seventh place in the Chinese grand prix with a strong wet/dry performance.

19. Sebastian Vettel - Will be very good I'm sure but his lack of experience means I'm ranking him quite low down. Is very quick though and has shown he is good in the wet. next season could be the making of him. Career moment: 4th place in Shanghai after the nightmare of Fuji.

20. Ralf Schumacher - Very quick on his day but too inconsistent and probably not motivated enough to remain in F1. Has had his moment in the sun I think. career moment: brilliant back-to-back victories in the summer of 2003.

21. Alexander Wurz - Once considered on of the brightest talents in F1, it has been a tough season for the Austrian, who has decided to retire from racing. Couldn't handle Nico rosberg, however still a great development driver, and his Canada podium underlined his everlasting class. career moment: 3rd at Silverstone in 1997 in only his second grand prix.

22. Sakon Yamamoto - the jury is still out on the Japanese driver, and a lack of testing can't have helped his progress. Has struggled since coming in but showed last year that he improved after a few races. Needs a full season for people to really see what he can do. career moment: seventh-fastest lap in the '06 season finale at interlagos.

23. Kazuki Nakajima - ? A well known F1 name returns this weekend at interlagos. He looks a decent prospect although he probably won't be considered for a race seat. Not unless he has a stormer on sunday. career moment: this weekend...

Let me know whether u agree or disagree with my rankings.

I would only disagree on two points,

I see my hero, Scott not Speedie, no where :confused:

and as to first place driver, I would have to be forced to put "Bernei's Greed" as number one ahead of the rest...no one can keep up with Mr. Greed..otherwise a great list...... :D

[jens]

Okay. The season is over and I'll try to rate the drivers somehow... I'm not putting them into an order, but I'll put them into grade groups with also some short comments added. In my post I'm trying to assess their performances this season, but if someone has underperformed and gets a lesser mark than he has used to get, then I'm also trying to guess the reasons for underperforming.

A - Heidfeld: Quick, consistent, almost flawless. What else do you need?

A - Rosberg: Has really impressed me this year. I didn't expect such progress after 2006, when he looked a bit erratic. This season he has looked a lot more consistent and driver errors have disappeared. The only area, where I have a slight doubt about him, is wet weather racing. He has never done anything remarkable in those 5 wet GP's he has raced in F1. I haven't researched, how many of these have been team's faults though. Hopefully next years will give an answer.

A - Hamilton: Exceptional season for a rookie and almost managed to set two new records: first rookie WDC (except 1950) and youngest WDC ever. But he has the chance of becoming youngest champion also next year. Made a few crucial mistakes and it looked like pressure got the better of him in the end.

A - Button: Looked a bit struggling in the first half of the year, but has really looked like taking the maximum out of the car in the second half. During two years together has beaten Barrichello by a similar margin as Schumacher before. :D Yeah, I know such cross-comparisons often don't mean anything and it doesn't mean that he is one of the best drivers of all times, but he seems like a top driver indeed. I became convinced in that back in 2004, when he consistently finished on podium... and I do think that if BAR had been a match to Ferrari that year, then Jenson may have given some headaches to Michael...

A - Webber: Seems like a contoversial driver, because so far his position in the rankings of other posters has varied a lot. I have had a few doubts about him in the past too, but at the moment I have to say that I have been really impressed with him this year and he has driven a very good season. Pace-wise has beaten Coulthard almost by a similar margin as Häkkinen and Räikkönen in the past... what about that? :p :

A - Räikkönen: Was slightly off the pace at the start of the season, but has had almost a perfect second half and managed to win the title from an "impossible situation" - also seemed to handle the pressure more than his McLaren rivals at the end of the season. Some people like to call him the "fastest driver". I don't know if something so categorical can be claimed, but he indeed is one of the naturally fastest guys out there.

A - Alonso: Had a few weekends, where he seemed to struggle (Bahrain, Canada), on other occasions very consistent and sometimes really quick. His biggest weakness looks like that by raw speed he has looked to be fractionally slower than Hamilton, but he seems to be able to compensate that loss with other strengths - at least has done it so far in his career.

A - Kovalainen: After having a hard start into the season, has been really impressive in the second half and has beaten Fisichella, who once had a reputation of demolishing all the promising rookies. Has been consistent, quick and almost flawless. Would like to seem him alongside a top-class team-mate next season.

A - Massa: Wet weather racing remains to be his biggest weakness, although he has improved there too as the Japanese and Chinese Grand Prixs have shown and one day he may well win a wet race. And to be honest - looks slightly (!) more inconsistent than Räikkönen. Even despite those team cock-ups in Q2 in Hungary I suspect Kimi would have done at least better than qualify P14 and finish the race in P13.

A/B - Kubica: Has been very unlucky this season. I think he has potential for a pure "A", maybe looked fractionally less consistent than Heidfeld - partly due to inexperience.

B - Vettel: Didn't race too much to give him an accurate rating. Seems to be one of the best drivers in the wet. Although I gave a "B" (trying not to look like too biased :p : ) due to inexperience, I think he may well be a top-class material.

B - Sutil: Hard to assess exactly, but by raw speed seems to be a very quick driver. If he can get rid of his endless driver errors, he may well become a top class driver.

B/C - Trulli: As a fan it's very hard to be objective about him. Had several good weekends and - yeah - had several, where he could/should have done better. His wet racing still remains a mystery to me. Although I don't doubt that Toyota plays a big part there srewing the races (Jarno drove some good wet races for Prost, Jordan and Renault), then also Ralf has looked a bit faster than Jarno in the wet. So obviously not a top wet driver. I still believe that Jarno has some unfulfilled potential and Toyota is not the right team for him to prove himself. What do I mean? Jarno is a very sensitive driver and he needs a good car and a top team to perform well. Alas Toyota often fails to prepare a suitable and well-balanced car for the race. In 2004 Jarno had the most competitive car he has ever driven in his career and he looked very consistent until he fell out with Flav. In Toyota he has been unable to maintain that level of consistency.

B/C - Liuzzi: has matched Vettel in the dry and has been solid in the wet too. Very hard to rate him, I think he is at least as good as the group of experienced drivers. Has made a few errors (Monaco, Canada), he has been criticized for his inconsistency and attitude too. Tough to say, whether it's true or not. But I'm glad that his reputation has risen alongside highly rated Vettel as matching Speed didn't convince anyone.

B/C - Davidson: His qualifying performances have been really impressive and in the second half of the year has mostly outqualified Sato, who was often quite close to Button in qualis (closer than in races), so a promising sign? Next year will be decisive for him.

C - Coulthard: Can't deny that I'm admiring his ability to stay in Formula One. Although he seems to lack of speed, then the fact that he has stayed in top teams (and now in Red Bull) for so long, shows that he must have some strengths (which maybe are not so visible on racing track), which convince teams to keep him. Also kudos to him for having the ability to score good points. In all those seasons, when his team-mate has had a lot of unluck (97, 01, 02, 07) it has been DC, who has been able to collect the vital points. I also think that unlike Rubens he has managed to keep his form and is still as good as he was on his McLaren days.

C - Schumacher: Still think he's underrated and I think he has been closer to Trulli this season than he has been given credit to. Although there is no way of avoiding the fact that he has been very inconsistent and unpredictable. You'll never know, whether he is going to have a good or not-so-good day. But some of his performances (GB, Eur, Hun, China) have in some way persuaded me that he is not totally finished yet and might surprise in another team. He's also not that old yet - 32 - so I don't think he has already become weaker than he was.

C - Barrichello: Bhuhh. Matched Button in the first half of the season, although I think it was at least partly as a result of Jenson being unmotivated, but the second half has not been so good for him. Only three years ago he finished 2nd in the WDC and now has scored no points during the whole year... Very harsh and sad downfall. Has become quite invisible in his Honda days. If we recall his previous drives at Jordan, Stewart and Ferrari, then although he wasn't quite consistent, then every year he had some races, where he shined. For example EUR '93, BRA '99, GER '00, GB '03 - truly exceptional performances. But in Honda he has seemed to have lost that "edge", because I can't recall any outstanding performances from the last two years (okay, maybe 2006 Monaco was the only exception - he lapped Button there). Therefore he has become more consistent in an "ordinary" level if I can say so.

C - Fisichella: Had a decent first half of the season, then started struggling. Kinda strange, what has happened to him at Renault, considering his past promise and especially the last season before moving to Renault. In Sauber he was really quick and consistent. Fisi seems to be a driver like Frentzen, who needs team support to perform at the highest level. HHF didn't have that at Williams and I'm afraid Fisi hasn't had it at Renault, but hard to know the whole truth.

C - Sato: On his day can be exceptionally quick (like Australia, Spain, Canada, also Belgium I reckon). If he always performed like in USA '04 or Canada '07, he would be WDC. :p : But I'm afraid he is one of the most inconsistent drivers currently on the grid. What's positive is that he hasn't had practically any collision this year and has silenced the critics, who in the past have said that he's like a loose cannon ramming others off.

D - Wurz: Sorry guy, but has lacked of speed this year too clearly. Showed a lot of promise back in 1998 especially in the first half of the season and it's still some kind of mystery to me, what happened to him after that...

E - Yamamoto: Lacks of speed, but is definetely better than drivers like Mazzacane, Baumgartner, Yoong and Ide. In some occasions (Italy, Japan) looked even quite OK.

I'm not going to rate Nakajima based on one race.

A loong post has been written. I would be thankful if anyone had motivation to read it through.

[BDunnell]

jens, that's a really excellent post and very thoughtful. :up:

[Rollo]

1. Hamilton
2. Räikkönen
3. Kovalainen
4. Rosberg
5. Alonso
6. Kubica
7. Massa
8. Wurz
9. Davidson
10 Button
11 Webber
12 Sato
13 Fisichella
14 Trulli
15 Schumacher
16 Liuzzi
17 Heidfeld
18 Coulthard
19 Barrichello
20 Yamamoto
21 Vettel
22 Sutil

[Bezza]

1) Raikkonen
2) Alonso
3) Rosberg
4) Hamilton
5) Massa
6) Button
7) Webber
8) Sutil
9) Heidfeld
10) Kovalainen
11) Vettel
12) Trulli
13) Fisichella
14) Barrichello
15) Kubica
16) Davidson
17) Sato
18) Liuzzi
19) Shumacher
20) Coulthard
21) Wurz
22) Yamamoto

Hey the italians are sucking - How did that happen!!

Please can you offer some justification for saying Sato is a better driver than Coulthard?

[markabilly]

Please can you offer some justification for saying Sato is a better driver than Coulthard?
How about he actually passed someone this year while on the track rather than while the driver was in the pits :D

[Roamy]

Please can you offer some justification for saying Sato is a better driver than Coulthard?

OOOOOps

I will be glad to switch the two - good point

[ShiftingGears]

1. Räikkönen - The champion, drove a brilliant second half, outgunning everyone.
2. Hamilton - Great all season, doubt he'll make those crucial mistakes again.
3. Alonso - Hamilton rattled his cage, though I still think they're both equally talented.
4. Webber - Again flogged his teammate, to be let down by the car again.
5. Massa - Impressed me this year, but he's missed his best opportunity to be world champ.
6. Kovalainen - Shaky start, but progressed very well. 2nd place at Fuji while fending off Raikkonen was a fine drive.
7. Rosberg - Big improvement from last year, but it might be clouded partly because Williams have a better car, and Wurz made him look impressive.
8. Heidfeld - In terms of points, the best of the rest.
9. Kubica - Solid but beaten by Heidfeld.
10 Button - Struggled at the start of the year, although drove solidly. Good in slippery conditions.
11 Coulthard - Nowhere near Webber in terms of pace. But still decent.
12 Vettel - Not any better than Liuzzi in the dry, but excellent in the rain.
13 Trulli - Average.
14 Liuzzi - Average, but if it doesn't rain next year there isn't much justifying why Vettel has the STR seat.
15 Schumacher - Average.
16 Davidson - Discreet.
17 Sato - Inconsistent, occasional moments of brilliance.
18 Fisichella - Thrashed by rookie, he's probably out of F1.
19 Barrichello - Good start, then went nowhere.
20 Wurz - Fortunate podium, although I liked seeing him drive with most of the rear wing missing. Gutsy but Rosberg dominated.
21 Sutil - Fastest in free practice at Monaco, and plays piano. That aside, overrated and crashes a lot. I'm hoping he can keep it on the road next year, if he's on the grid.
22 Yamamoto - Nothing special, I'm sure there are much better drivers out there.

[Valve Bounce]

This is a very unfair way to rate drivers. The only fair way is to assume they all drove for Ferrari, then you assess/predict how they would perform. I am sure that if we used this method of assessment, there would be some strange results.

For those who may not know, a couple of years ago, ant posted a time while testing at Monza within 0.2 seconds of SchM's best time there. It was just before March 10, and he gave me the cap he wore there as a present. I bet his time there would have been better had he been driving a Ferrari. ;)

[MaximumAttack]

1. Räikkönen
2. Alonso
3. Hamilton
4. Massa
5. Heidfeld
6. Rosberg
7. Kovalainen
8. Kubica
9. Button
10. Webber

11-22 : Pretty much equal, except Yamamoto who shouldn't be everywhere near a F1 car...

[leopard]

Generally I would agree with the ranks, except:
- I can't say Vettel was worse than the closing top-10.
- Kubica has some trust to drive another season from the team, and deserves better rank than those untrusted.

[ioan]

Please can you offer some justification for saying Sato is a better driver than Coulthard?

Fighting for points while driving a SuperAguri F1 car? Passing the world champion with the same SuperDoopper car?

That's way more than DC did this season.

[Ranger]

Fighting for points while driving a SuperAguri F1 car? Passing the world champion with the same SuperDoopper car?

That's way more than DC did this season.

Wouldn't that have made Liuzzi one of the best drivers of 2006 then? :p :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZ8bcj5zpUc

And logic dictates that DC couldn't have done any of those things, because he wasn't driving a Super Aguri.

[ioan]

And logic dictates that DC couldn't have done any of those things, because he wasn't driving a Super Aguri.

Or because he doesn't have anymore the balls to do it.

[Ranger]

Or because he doesn't have anymore the balls to do it.

Or probably because that RB3 thing blew up before he had the chance. :p :