NASCAR at The Rock?

[PitMarshal]

I was going to post this in a response to another thread, but I thought that might take it off topic, so I'll put it here.

There has been some suggestion (from both sides of the pond!) that what NASCAR really needs is a race in Europe, specifically at Rockingham. Much as I'd love to see NASCAR over here I can't see it happening, especially not at Rockingham, and here's why.

AFAIK, there are three options for racing in Europe: Lausitz, Rockingham, or one of the 3/4 mile ovals in Belgium. Lausitz would probaby qualify as a superspeedway which means lots of messing around with aero packages, so lets discount that one.

I can't see a 3/4 mile oval working because the cars would practically be nose to tail. You only have to look at the mickey-mouse event they put on at Bristol to see the potential problems short one-groove tracks present.

So that leaves us Rockingham. On the face of it the circuit has everything it needs, but it seems to me that the circuit simply hasn't been designed to support something as big as the Nascar circus. The obvious problem is the paddock and pit lane are both far too small. Okay some stuff could be relocated to the outer paddock, but unless some teams sacrifice strategy and share pit boxes, you are left with the problem of 43 cars and 36 parking spaces... and that's without considering the question of whether you run the PUT's and SCSA as support races. Then there's organisation, or lack thereof. I don't know how much local support Nascar would expect, but the circuit management in its various guises over the years have shown that they would struggle to organise an orgy in a brothel, and I don't think the BRSCC would have the experience or the manpower to run an event of that magnitude. I know that at the moment we certainly don't have enough marshals to run one :( . And lets not even go into the question of promotion. That needs money!

I'm not trying to be deliberately negative here, it just seems to me that when people talk about having Nascar over here, they conveniently list all the pro's and ignore the con's. If anyone can blow my arguements out of the water (and belive me I'd love it to happen), then feel free.

[racing59]

There are 38 garages, but more pit boxes than garages.
(DS please confirm...) The paddock is big enough, because of the reasons you cited - Bristol, which is certainly not mickey mouse, it is probably the best short oval in the world. The facility there is one hell of a motordrome.

The CoT made this year's race uneventful as it is able to run multi-groove around there, where with old technology, it's single groove, hence the usual carnage.

While I would dearly love to see the Sprint Cup, or even the Nationwide Grand National series over here, I think it's far too early for that.

What I'd like to see, is the opening of proper dialogue between circuits like Rockingham, and Lausitz, about becoming NASCAR sanctioned, which means they get access to the NASCAR name, and all that goes with it. The BRSCC, BARC, BRDC, means s all to the general public. Mention NASCAR, they've probably heard of that.

Now IF, and it's a BIG IF, the cup came over, and PuT & SCSA ran support races, we'd be on the Saturday, or even Friday night. The Cup run exclusively on the Sunday. Though they may want to run Saturday evening to get live TV into the 'States. I can't see a Sunday Morning (their time) race going down well with the preachers!


You have to start somewhere.

[SteveA]

Saturday evening would mean Rockingham would need to install lighting. I think they would also need to install SAFER barriers, as I believe this is a requirement for NASCAR now (and probably not only NASCAR!)

[deadsquirrel]

There are 38 garages, but more pit boxes than garages.
(DS please confirm...)
You have to start somewhere.

36 garages on pitroad, but several are used for other purposes and have been 'adapted' on a fairly permanent basis - so I'd go for 34 maximum.

You do have to start somewhere, but I think you/we should only start when we have a credible package to offer - I believe you'd only get one 'pitch'.

I'm intending to be out at Charlotte in May for the double header of the All-Star and Coke 600, and should be meeting Jim Hunter at some point, so I'll have a chat :-) Maybe if Bruton Smith is still talking about 'moving' Charlotte, maybe I could convince him to use Rockingham (and omit to mention it's not Rockingham NC). :)

[truckmonster]

I dont know how you can call Bristol motorspeedway "mickey mouse" it is the most entertaining race of the nascar season and as for "one Groove" oval it now has a new concave shape surface which allows a fast groove higher up the race track to allow more side by side racing and overtaking than before.Dont be so negative the rock has hosted champcar before why not try to bring them back again,we have to try bring the fans back somehow!

[Abo]

BRSCC, BARC, BRDC, means s all to the general public. Mention NASCAR, they've probably heard of that.

Days of Thunder was on Film4 again last night. Yes, I watched it...


Now IF, and it's a BIG IF, the cup came over, and PuT & SCSA ran support races, we'd be on the Saturday, or even Friday night. The Cup run exclusively on the Sunday. Though they may want to run Saturday evening to get live TV into the 'States. I can't see a Sunday Morning (their time) race going down well with the preachers!


You have to start somewhere.

They'd probably tape-delay the race on a Sunday. Shame about the Sunday exclusivity, there'd be no reason why the trucks couldn't do a race on the Sunday; we're only small and woldn't get in the way, honest!

[Old Stock Nut]

Big difference if NASCAR did come to the Rock is that it wouldn't be such an anonymous event as the SCSA has been to date - they would advertise it - a lot. I can't rememeber any person that I have taken to Rockingham who hasn't been blown away by the place. Why is it such a secret - because it does not get pushed around by anyone other the few of us. Unfortunately that means money again. If nobody knows about it, nobody will come to the meetings and there will be no future SCSA.
The recent US Ice Hockey and Basketball matches at the O2 arena have been sold out and I gather the American Football match soon to come is also sold out. Why - because they have all been advertised to the fans of that sport and there is loads of hospitality being pushed by the corporate industry.
I managed to sort out a box via my company project for the Oval Fest. Great value, great day, but you would hardly believe how difficult it was to sort it out. It took a great deal of detective work to find the contacts and even then, trying to get the ONE person who seemed to know how to make it happen would have challenged anyone trying to sort it. That was verging on criminal lack of interest. As well as money we need people who want to push the series forward PROFESSIONALLY rather than just treating it like a hobby.

[racing59]

nail, hammer, hit, head!!

[Dave17]

It will never happen-a cup race that is. What track is going to give up a prime summer (the only viable time to run a race over here weather wise) spot on the schedule and with 35 races there is no free weekends. What could happen is a NASCAR Europe series. There was talk when the CoT was fully up and running the old cup cars whould move to Busch and those cars would come to europe. Whether this happens remains to be seen, but ever the sceptic, I very much doubt it will.

On a slightly different tack, the British motorsport fan in general does not seem to go for V8 racing. Where are Thunder Saloons, Thunder Sports and F5000 these days? Every big series in this country seems to revolve around 2 litre engines.

[cgs]

the busch series will be getting their own COT from 2009 from what i have read. besides, most of the old Nextel Cup cars have been sold to ARCA teams who use the same cars.

but i'd love to see NASCAR in Europe, even if it is a European, or even world-wide series. they could visit loads of different countries but still have their base in America, much like the Champ Car shedule.

and i think if a world-wide series was created, they may not have 43 cars in the field. it may be restricted to 36 like the Truck series or perhaps smaller. perhaps the entry list would need to be desided before hand as well since if you fly half way round the world and don't make the race then thats a big lose in money to the teams!

[acorn]

On a slightly different tack, the British motorsport fan in general does not seem to go for V8 racing. Where are Thunder Saloons, Thunder Sports and F5000 these days? Every big series in this country seems to revolve around 2 litre engines.

i don't think it's the fan that's the problem. fans love the sound of a v8 but with so many noise restrictions the cars become emasculated. why did rouse's scv8 not even make the grid ...because the teams and drivers (and probably manufacturers)weren't interested. the v8 stars failed because it was up against the dtm with manufacturer backing. would dtm exist if mercedes and/or audi pulled the plug?

the 2 litre engine(in it's various forms)is in so many formulae because it is plentiful and tuning parts are readily available at reasonable cost.

[Chigley]

but ever the sceptic, I very much doubt it will.

Dave, are you hitting the gloom and doom button more frequently? :confused:

[racing59]

SCV8 didn't make it because it was a political matter behind the scenes. Nothing to do with the fans not wanting V8's.

Walk into a pub. Ask the punters what they prefer the sound of. A racing car with an angry V8, or a buzzing 4pot 2 litre. Sorry, it's V8 every time.

Thundersaloons died because Nicola Foulston and the BRSCC destroyed the series with silly rule changes that wiped it out.

F5000 - it died when they meddled with the rules and allowed F1 cars into the field. The series in the UK ended up (stop me Chigley!) as the Aurora AFX F1 series when the F5000 cars disappeared because they were not competitive against the F1 machinery. That lasted until 1982 when it too died because F1 cars cost too much for the national club racer to run.

It has had a swansong with the historic cars coming out performing. The Aussies and the Kiwi's have kept it going. Technically, I feel it still has a place in national motorsport, with stock-block V8's proving to be far cheaper to run than bespoke racing engines, but providing proper high speed racing with the "right noise".

Everywhere I took "Harry" my Thundersaloon V8 Belmont, I had a great welcome, even though it was as reliable as an un-serviced rusty Marina with it's teething problems, people just loved the V8. It sounds angry, and went like.... (when it did go!).

NASCAR Europe could easily run with a 36 car limit, with it's own chassis / engine rules (like CASCAR, or the NASCAR Mexican rules), and thus act as a feeder to the main series itself. In some ways, how people view ARCA in the US (which has nothing to do with NASCAR, but the do run Cup spec cars).

I rest. We have a case!!

[Old Stock Nut]

There are four short words that strike fear into the guys at work - "I've been thinking...". Usually means a long discussion, so here goes.

I've been been thinking. Maybe we have been coming at this from the wrong end. The car numbers may not really be the problem nor the solution to take the series on and up. That is actually "petrol-head" club racing thinking, not entertainment industry thinking.

Thinking on from the last meeting when we had the suite. According to the Rockingham web site there are 45 suites all together. For ease of the maths, let's assume that they get 10 people in each (conservative figure because we got 15 in ours). At roughly £100 each person, that gives us a potential maximum hospitality income per race of 450 x £100 = £45K. Drinks would probably add another £5K at least. Lets assume that with entrance cost, food and staff of 20K at cost, we would end up with £30K in pocket without another single person coming through the gate.

Bear in mind that similar hospitality at the British GP costs at least £850 -£1,250 per person for a lot less, and most of the guests are probably p1ss heads who don't really car that much about the racing anyway. And that is usually in big soggy tents with portable bogs and planks for footpaths, not the superb impressive site we are talking about Is £100 per person a good deal or not? Is it even enough?

So how much cost and effort would it take to fill those boxes, when comparing it with the effort to get that much profit in through the gate - ? I don't know? And with conservative estimates anyway, is that something that the organisers would find worthwhile concentrating more effort on? Never mind some advertising so that families around the catchment area of up let's say up to 50 miles would want to come. Where else could you get a full day of entertainment for a family of 4 and involvement with the drivers and machinery for less than £50 bearing in mind again that there are not very many top-flight football clubs in that 50-mile area to compete with. How much are cinema ads for example? - that might tempt a few families, especially as you could get some great sound and vision in that environment.

Told you they were four bad words!!!!

Brian

[Old Stock Nut]

More thoughts. What is more important, a TV deal for SCSA or much more exposure for NASCAR? SCSA doesn't make as much impact as NASCAR yet and probably will not for quite a while. Mainstream TV coverage helps teams to get sponsorship. However, there are enough international sponsors in NASCAR to piggy-back SCSA onto - Dominos, De Walt, Bud, Lenox etc. So we have another paradox - SCSA will improve if NASCAR gets mainstream TV coverage. So we should be looking to work on that avenue as well. SCSA teams could use words like "NASCAR-style" racing to get the fans through the gates. And don't forget the old faithfull "Days of Thunder" style - that means quite a lot, plus CARS and Talledega Nights (on Sky this week)

[Nick Brad]

We've tried the Dominos route, sadly they don't seem as enthusiastic over this side of the pond.

[Chigley]

(stop me Chigley!)

Why! you are going great guns and are the natural ambassador to approach Mr French. Personally still get a huge kick when Euroboss or TGP are around now that's proper circuit racing (outside of clubbies).

[deadsquirrel]

Why! you are going great guns and are the natural ambassador to approach Mr French. Personally still get a huge kick when Euroboss or TGP are around now that's proper circuit racing (outside of clubbies).


Mr French - is this some secretive person, or do you mean Mr France? ;)

Nascar at its highest level (Busch/National and Nextel/Sprint) will not be coming to Europe - there's too many people in the US making big money for them to want to share IMO. You might get one race where they 'import' some aged/recently retired drivers for a one-off introduction race using European based cars, but NASCAR seem more intent on a naming rights deal, and I think it would be suicide to start those discussions now IMO.

Selling 'hospitality' is a good idea - but done on the scale of 20-30 suites being done, not 1 or 2. I started to price these up last season, and OSN's figures seem to match - get businesses etc to do them as 'perks' or reward days and suddenly it all seems achievable. Make sure they get a 'driver apperance', VIP passes and full garage tours.

[Old Stock Nut]

We've tried the Dominos route, sadly they don't seem as enthusiastic over this side of the pond.
Nick

I realise that. I think you may have misunderstood the core of my ramblings. What I was trying to say was that IF NASCAR had better mainstream TV coverage over here of the series and the races, the common sponsors like Dominos and the others would be more inclined to help UK runners in SCSA. Having a car running in a UK series that looked like a US one that was getting mainstream TV coverage in the UK would be a helluva lot better than trying to get such coverage for the current SCSA racing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

....
AFAIK, there are three options for racing in Europe: Lausitz, Rockingham, or one of the 3/4 mile ovals in Belgium. Lausitz would probaby qualify as a superspeedway which means lots of messing around with aero packages, so lets discount that one.

I can't see a 3/4 mile oval working because the cars would practically be nose to tail. You only have to look at the mickey-mouse event they put on at Bristol to see the potential problems short one-groove tracks present.

.
This excerpt says to me that you guys still don't understand stock car racing, and you don't understand NASCAR.

First off, if the UK wants a NASCAR race, they better have stock racing organized better on the ground there, and the racing culture has to mimic more of the NASCAR way of doing things, not put in a club racer or road racer's mentality over oval racing. That means a professionally run (in style if not substance) organizing body that makes hard and fast decisions both on and off the track. That hasn't been apparent in the UK from what I have read, but I will leave that up to you guys who are over there.

Second of all, Rockingham would be a great venue, but to say the 3/4 mile tracks in Belgium wouldn't because they are "too short" is just silly. Bristol Tenn is the hardest ticket to get on the sched and people want to see that body contact and beating and banging. Richmond is a 3/4 mile and is the likely one of the top tracks for fans AND drivers. The art of short track racing is the roots of NASCAR, so if you as a fan dismiss it, you don't really understand the reason people have turned to NASCAR in the last few years.

Third, the UK suffers from two other problems in getting a date. They are in a rainy nation (at least, you have a short season where you can dependentely get warm and dry weather) that is 5 hours ahead of the easternmost part of the North American TV market. That could cause issues. Americans do NOT want to watch their NASCAR at 6am. The TV ratings would do better than f1 in America, but it would be a long ways down from ratings they get now. The second problem the UK faces is Canada and Mexico are both in line already. What is more, as NASCAR was shocked to find out at Montreal this summer, they may have more fans in Canada per capita than many parts of the US. If it wasn't for the lack of decent oval facilities in the half mile or larger size in Canada, they likely would have found this out sooner. NASCAR Canada just finished a big season here and the tv ratings and crowds for the races were better than they were last year for CASCAR (which was the home grown series that NASCAR bought up). They put the program on TV on the biggest Sportsnetwork in the country and the fans don't have to be educated on what stock car racing is. Canadian home grown stock racing is had a glass ceiling on it by lack of money past a certain level but it has been there at the grass roots in ways the UK has no concept of.

If the UK wants top level stock racing here is what has to happen:

Get a homegrown V8 stock car series going that is semi professional or professional. Have it actually thrive and race at more than just Rockingham (great track, not so great for teams starting out), and develop a stock car racing culture.

They have to get good promotions going and draw bigger crowds. Develop a TV package that actually has ratings.

Once that is done, apply for NASCAR regional status or some sort of affiliation. Maybe draw in some series and racing from the Continent.

Then maybe talk to NASCAR about getting some attention in the way of a Busch or CTS race. Forget Cup.....there are American Markets they cant get to right now with Cup racing, and the UK doesn't have the track record of supporting stock racing American style for a long enough time to justify the risk. NASCAR is really conscious of how they expand, and I thought they were fools for ignoring the Canadian market as long as they did, and our stock car racing culture is way more ingrained and knowledgable about NASCAR than that in the UK. NASCAR wont come unless it is a permanent move (no one off events, they want to come back for years...)and that means the fans have to be there as knowledgable and understanding of what they are getting. I don't think that evidence is there yet. I have read from away the trials and tribulations of the SCSA events and have seen one on TV and thought of where UK stock racing is at....and it isn't ready as far as NASCAR is concerned.

By the way, I hope the UK does get a Busch or CTS event. I know the UK fans are far more into racing as a whole than just about anywhere, and I know the facilities are second to none, but this is NASCAR, and they have their own way of doing things, and they are REALLY cautious when it comes to foreign expansion. I never could see why they went to Mexico first, but I underestimated the draw of Hispanic fans in the US and I think they know often before the general public what will fly, and what wont. IN the last 20 years, NASCAR has not put a foot wrong in their expansion efforts and it shows in how their reach has just about snuffed the life out of most of the other forms of racing in North America. The UK doesn't NEED NASCAR, it wants it...but it has to show how bad it wants it, because NASCAR doesn't NEED the UK.......just like it didn't need Canada for all these years....

[Nick Brad]

Ah, I'm with ya.

Trouble is, we can't just automatically get the tv companies to show Nascar over here and Duane and co have enough to concentrate on without trying to secure better benefits for another series.
What it would need is a concerted effort from us fans all directed in the same place to pull it off. Highlights on 5 US isn't enough, you miss so much out that I personally don't even bother watching them and rely on the net for results. Motors TV have gone so far away from oval racing now that I wonder if they're a part of Heymarket Publishing so I wouldn't want to see them on there anyway. BBC wouldn't look either due to the advertsing conflicts.

[chrisn]

Interesting thread.....just like to add the benefit of my experience!

1. NASCAR are aware of Rockingham - AP had some leading people visit briefly when they were in the UK. However at present I do not think that they will stretch their major series outside the US. They have seen what this did to Champcar and will not want to take the risk.They may support (and possibly not financially initially) regional series in other parts of the world but I suspect that somebody else will have to invest in and promote these locally to a successful stage before NASCAR get involved. That will probably take several suitable Ovals to be available in Europe.

2. If NASCAR got involved I am sure that they would need major investment. I believe that an upgrade with SAFER barriers would be required these days for any high speed oval trying to rise to the top division. However I do not see too many problems with the Rockingham Paddock. The Rockingham pit lane was always planned with more but smaller pit bays if needed - tight but possible. Any support races would be in the Outer Paddock I am sure.

3. An upgrade of the organisation would be sensible for a step up. Just like the old days of Champcar at Rockingham you have to make the mental change of gear to run in the US style rather than try to run it like a road course with 4 left hand turns. I have always believed that the answer is an in house team of specialists, recruited from all the Clubs in the UK, who understand the different ethos of Oval racing.

4. Hospitality income is the icing on the cake and not the cake. Get the people in and the rest will follow as long as it is cost effective. If it is F1 then it doesn't even need to be cost effective because they have the people! The profit margin on Hospitality at lower levels of the sport are however lower too, so the figures in reality may look a little different than those suggested. Filling 45 Suites is not easy, even when they are given away.

5. Rockingham originally needed Champcar on TV in the UK every two weeks(and Mansell still winning in it) to make their race work. Likewise any other Oval racing would need it to sell to a bigger audience. And not just "dogwatch" or some limited audience satellite/cable channel. You need mainstream to get to the non core audience.

6. Big rear wheel drive V8s is what all levels of racing need at present as long as there is more power than grip. Wings are for aeroplanes. If you have to fit them on a car for advertising then make them flat so they don't work properly. While we are at it reverse grids and more than one car per row - start them in single file 9 metres apart in the order of the fastest and what can you expect in the race?

On this note I will sign off. Available for consultancy at very reasonable rates!!!

Chris

[timtime]

TV is the key to making sports popular. Look back to what Channel Four did for American Football in the 80's and to a lesser extent Australian rules football. In a similar vein although not really comparable look at the seroid pumped WWE, I appreciate it is easier to get the kids hooked (no pun intended) but the power of TV and marketing could make NASCAR a bigger sport and the consequent spin off could be good.

I used to like the Thunder Sunday concept of the first Sunday of every month as well it worked well and it was one of those things that you soon became accustomed too.

I still have doubts about Rockinghams long term future once its surrounded by houses, it would be a cruel irony if something good got going only for it to be destroyed by nimby's.

With regards to reverse grids they do work well in other formulae, I think its a good idea although and even better in a few years when the grids have swollen.

Hospitality is both good and bad, BSB yesterday at Brands Hatch was a classic case of some good racing, overcrowded spectator areas with huge empty swathes while all those there for a jolly lunched. At the F1 end of the scale its a mockery but something like Brandon when the Brisca stocks are on is good, you can sit and have a good meal for £15.00 and still enjoy the atmosphere. The stadium does well out of it and it is real value for money food.

Tim

[PitMarshal]

This excerpt says to me that you guys still don't understand stock car racing, and you don't understand NASCAR.

First off, if the UK wants a NASCAR race, they better have stock racing organized better on the ground there, and the racing culture has to mimic more of the NASCAR way of doing things, not put in a club racer or road racer's mentality over oval racing. That means a professionally run (in style if not substance) organizing body that makes hard and fast decisions both on and off the track. That hasn't been apparent in the UK from what I have read, but I will leave that up to you guys who are over there.

This is the ultimate problem isn't it. Still, the signs are that this is gradually being addressed


Second of all, Rockingham would be a great venue, but to say the 3/4 mile tracks in Belgium wouldn't because they are "too short" is just silly. Bristol Tenn is the hardest ticket to get on the sched and people want to see that body contact and beating and banging. Richmond is a 3/4 mile and is the likely one of the top tracks for fans AND drivers. The art of short track racing is the roots of NASCAR, so if you as a fan dismiss it, you don't really understand the reason people have turned to NASCAR in the last few years.


I guess I just don't 'get' Bristol as my opinion seems to be rather lonely. What I will say though is that what first attracted me to oval racing was the mix of speed and driver skill. If I want to see 'beating and banging' we have plenty of home-grown series that do that.



If the UK wants top level stock racing here is what has to happen:

Get a homegrown V8 stock car series going that is semi professional or professional. Have it actually thrive and race at more than just Rockingham (great track, not so great for teams starting out), and develop a stock car racing culture.


Which brings us back full circle in a way. The 'professional teams' were what nearly killed the series two years ago. You also seem to be proposing a real chicken and egg situation: to grow you need sponsor involvement and decent TV exposure, but to get them you need an established series with a stable fan base...which (over here anyway) you can't get without decent sponsor and TV involvement!

I'm also not naive enough to think the Nextel boys are ever likely to roll into town; I'd settle quite happily for CTS or even ASA or whatever they are these days, but I think we need some outside help to really kick-start people's interest. For some bizarre reason keeping people interested in Rockingham doesn't seem to be a problem, it's generally getting them to go there in the first place.

[truckmonster]

Gotta agree with a lot you said Mark. :bandit:

[Gasman]

Stock Car racing in the UK is in a real "Catch 22" situation.

NASCAR won't get involved in SCSA until its more established in UK/Europe. They're not interested in pumping American money into building Stock Car racing from (virtually) nothing in an overseas market...

BUT...

UK/European Stockcar racing needs NASCAR to become an established force in the UK/Europe...

Perhaps, though, NASCAR could be persuaded to lend their name, but without any money, to a UK/European series, e.g. "The SCSA Euro Cup by NASCAR". Maybe just having the "NASCAR" name associated with the series would be enough to start the ball rolling without any financial involvement from, or risk to NASCAR.

Maybe?

[racing59]

There's a nice idea.

As much as my heart says yep, that's what we need, I think that this week it's a case of re-arrange the following words into a phrase or saying....

leprosy more catching of chance.

Unless you something different Andy?

[ascarmarshal]

The main problem in the UK is the term Stock Cars. To the man in the street when you mention Stock Cars they think of the cars that race at places like Arena Essex and bump their rivals out of the way and the associated image of banger racing. He also thinks that NASCAR is 100% oval and is easy to do and boring to watch. Some even belive that the cars have automatic gearboxes!!!!

[bravheart]

Why! you are going great guns and are the natural ambassador to approach Mr French. Personally still get a huge kick when Euroboss or TGP are around now that's proper circuit racing (outside of clubbies).

Yes i have to Agree, especially having spent a few years in the Euroboss myself, But saying that, the series has really gone out to Europe now and is holding its own, Lets all hope that we dont have to follows Roger Cowmans foot steps and take the V8's out to Europe for good?