What can we expect from the SX4 WRC?

[Lalo]

Now that we're about to see the debut of the Suzuki WRT, there's a lot of speculation from the fans and the media wheather the competitiveness of the car. Remembering how Citroën entered in the top category of the championship (coming from the JWRC too) a couple of years ago, they had a prety good season in 2002 and a great first full one in 2003. Despite differences, we all know the French team had the bests drivers to develop the car (RIP Colin, Sèb and King Carlos), and that Suzuki may not have that type of success, but what can we really expect from the newcoming team, not only for the two rallyes there it will participate this season, but also next year?

I think they'll have a prety good debut, as the objective this weekend is to continue testing the car and to get to the finish. Bernardi will do fine, not looking forward for a great result, but to keep developing the car for sext season.

I hope Suzuki WRT, having the great amount of experience gained in JWRC over the past few years, won't be a new Skoda (slow and unreliable) or a new recently Subaru (fast but unreliable or reliable without having the speed needed). Despite Citroën made the same jump from the Junior category to WRC a few years ago, Ford is the best example of a fast, reliable and winning car and, of course, a good role model.

Good luck Suzuki! My best wishes and welcome to the top of the sport! :D

[DonJippo]

Citroen did not make the jump from JWRC to WRC they had F2 car which was able to win WRC on dry tarmac so it was totally different thing than Suzuki's jump from JWRC to WRC.

[jonkka]

Citroen developed their cars years before the WRC debut. Xsara WRC (then called T4) ran first time late 1999, achieved ERC title in 2000 and made WRC debut in 2001 Catalunya, while C4 WRC first ran in 2004 and made debut this year.

[Sulland]

You always have to drive a car in real anger to find limits and where you loose compared to the opposition.

I dont expect too much straight away, but hopefully they are able to get up there during 08 ! It blows hard at the top - just look at Subaru !

[ZequeArgentina]

I hink we should not expect anythingspeciall fom the debut,as it is consedered a testand not thereal attemp for results.

Anyway some isolated good times could show potential of theSuzuki

[Josti]

Citroen developed their cars years before the WRC debut. Xsara WRC (then called T4) ran first time late 1999, achieved ERC title in 2000.

Don't remember Citroën winning the ERC title in 2000. I know Thiry drove the Kit Car version in that years championship, though it was a tough year for him. T4 won the 2000 French Championship with total dominance of Bugalski.

Back to Suzuki, I don´t expect much of them, but that won´t be shame either. Reliability is important.

[Donney]

I think they'll be cautious on day 1, more agressive on day 2 and hopefully try hard the last day. In any case they'll be way off the pace but I expect them to show some promise.

[N]

I don't expect them to finish in the points, as they said a number of times, it's only testing, not competition. They have to finish, so I would image that they will go for it on the last day if they perform ok in the first two.

I wish for Suzuki to become a real WRC contender, unlike Subaru. :/

[L5->R5/CR]

Some top 10 times with a finish around 12-15...

[Doon]

We have to remember that this is a test, they don't have the best driver in the world, and the car has never done a rally before.

It all comes down to £££'s?or $$$ lol. Does anyone know what kind of a budget they are running on?

Japanese manufactures don't usually do thing by halves in motorsport and fingers crossed Suzuki wont either. I can't see them being another Skoda/Hyundai etc, i don't think anyone could be so naive in todays world of rallying to believe that success will come without cost. The top end of the WRC (Ford/Citroen) really are streets ahead...only a fool would go into this game at half throttle!

[A.F.F.]

We have to remember that this is a test, they don't have the best driver in the world, and the car has never done a rally before.



Agreed. Hence, I don't expect them nada.

[jonkka]

Don't remember Citroën winning the ERC title in 2000. I know Thiry drove the Kit Car version in that years championship, though it was a tough year for him. T4 won the 2000 French Championship with total dominance of Bugalski.

At least Citroen themselves claim so:
Sports: Peugeot announces its withdrawal from Formula One racing and the end of its partnership with Prost Grand Prix. It gets involved the World Rally Champion for drivers and manufacturers with the 206 WRC. Citroën wins the French Rally Championship with the Xsara T4, as well as the Spanish Rally and Manufacturers Championship and becomes European Champion with the Xsara WRC.
source: http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/psa_group/key_facts_2000_b1.php

I am not partial to ERC so I am not sure. I remember the Thiry & Xsara KitCar but I assumed it was previous year given the text above.

[Lousada]

I am not partial to ERC so I am not sure. I remember the Thiry & Xsara KitCar but I assumed it was previous year given the text above.

They won the Manu-title not the Drivers title.

[AndyRAC]

I don't expect anything. Maybe just inside the top 10 if they're lucky/ retirements.

[GigiGalliNo1]

I think there will be some pressure on the WRC top drivers but not a lot! Again this is a new test for Suzuki and I do see them becoming competitive but they're not here for that just yet! But soon will become a time and they will be serious about it all and start winning stages and pulling on Seb's tail :D haha but I think that is more next year, also its just been shakedown! So you cannot judge already by their performance!

They look really nice, good to see more cars in it too. Beautiful car might I add too :p

[GPHK]

I think there will be some pressure on the WRC top drivers but not a lot! Again this is a new test for Suzuki and I do see them becoming competitive but they're not here for that just yet! But soon will become a time and they will be serious about it all and start winning stages and pulling on Seb's tail :D haha but I think that is more next year, also its just been shakedown! So you cannot judge already by their performance!

They look really nice, good to see more cars in it too. Beautiful car might I add too :p

More Manufacturers the better, Bring Back Audi, Lancia and Toyota. :rolleyes:

[GigiGalliNo1]

in your dreams!

[Woodeye]

I just hope that Suzuki don't turn out to be the next Hyundai. If they can beat the privateers and challenge Subaru next year, that would be great. :up:

[WRCfan]

They have said themselves, it's a test and not for positions. They need to gain as much data from the rally as possible so this is what they will be aiming for.

Driving like a bat out of hell and retiring proves nothing and their trip to Corsica would be pointless, steady, keep it on the road, and learn as much about the car as possible is what they want, and this is a wise decision.

Don't expect anything from them, just be happy there is a new WRC car out there on the stages....

[Zes]

They have said themselves, it's a test and not for positions. They need to gain as much data from the rally as possible so this is what they will be aiming for.

Driving like a bat out of hell and retiring proves nothing and their trip to Corsica would be pointless, steady, keep it on the road, and learn as much about the car as possible is what they want, and this is a wise decision.

Don't expect anything from them, just be happy there is a new WRC car out there on the stages....

Yes, that's what Monster said, BUT if you just want to test, you don't need a rally for that. You can do it wherever. You can simulate the stages, rally distances all by yourself. But if you want to see where you are compared to the others, then you need to join the race and maybe also push a bit, atleast in the end...

[Josti]

At least Citroen themselves claim so:
Sports: Peugeot announces its withdrawal from Formula One racing and the end of its partnership with Prost Grand Prix. It gets involved the World Rally Champion for drivers and manufacturers with the 206 WRC. Citroën wins the French Rally Championship with the Xsara T4, as well as the Spanish Rally and Manufacturers Championship and becomes European Champion with the Xsara WRC.
source: http://www.psa-peugeot-citroen.com/en/psa_group/key_facts_2000_b1.php

I am not partial to ERC so I am not sure. I remember the Thiry & Xsara KitCar but I assumed it was previous year given the text above.

You're right. They did won the 2000 ERC for manufacterers. Seems that championship was only open for European manufacterers, so no wonder they won it. Thiry drove the ERC with the Xsara in 2000, I'm sure of that.

[RS]

Hmmm, a few weeks ago they were saying they were aiming for the podium on Corsica. Maybe they had had a reality check since Toni G drove the car, or maybe they're just downplaying expectations.

[Tom206wrc]

Yes, that's what Monster said, BUT if you just want to test, you don't need a rally for that. You can do it wherever. You can simulate the stages, rally distances all by yourself. But if you want to see where you are compared to the others, then you need to join the race and maybe also push a bit, atleast in the end...



Quite the opposite !!! The BEST test ever is the real rally itself !! You need it to compare your car to others of the field :rolleyes:

[Zes]

You need it to compare your car to others of the field :rolleyes:

Didn't I say so?? I was thinking what is the point of testing without trying to push at all.

[Tom206wrc]

To answer the question of the thread...mechanical problem(engine power)on SS4 didn't finish SS5 probably superrally tomorrow :rolleyes:

[koko0703]

Well.... I wasn't expecting too much out of Corsica, and won't be expecting anything out of GB, either. It's just testing. They may not even be running the best set up for the road to see how the car behaves. Finishing an entire rally is a big step forward for Suzuki at this point of development.

[N]

Also, this is not the car that they will use next year, next years car will be homologated with some new parts, again, this is just testing and he is not pushing the car to its limits.

The times aren't that bad considering that he isn't pusing it and the car isn't setup 100%. I'm confident that this is a good car.

[Tom206wrc]

Well.... I wasn't expecting too much out of Corsica, and won't be expecting anything out of GB, either. It's just testing. They may not even be running the best set up for the road to see how the car behaves. Finishing an entire rally is a big step forward for Suzuki at this point of development.



It could have been at least reliable for its first outing !! :mark:

[Tom206wrc]

Also, this is not the car that they will use next year, next years car will be homologated with some new parts, again, this is just testing and he is not pushing the car to its limits.

The times aren't that bad considering that he isn't pusing it and the car isn't setup 100%. I'm confident that this is a good car.



Most of the time new parts = reliability problems at the start :s

[Tomi]

Basti said during the Frankfurt car show that theese 2 events are only tests nothing else, so why is there so big expectations? Better wait to Sweden Garde will drive the Suzuki in top 5. :)

[kubiczech]

IMO: I think Suzuki has "the future of WRC cars" in their hands. All recent attempts of joining (or re-joining) the big boys game were more or less disasters - Skoda, Hyunday, Mitsu.
If Suzuki will be competitive next year, there could be another factory(ies) watching the results saying: "Yes it is possible, lets do it too".
If Suzuki fails, there will be no another attempt, and the championship will be clinically dead and will have to transform itself somehow (S2000?)

[miksu]

Basti said during the Frankfurt car show that theese 2 events are only tests nothing else, so why is there so big expectations? Better wait to Sweden Garde will drive the Suzuki in top 5. :)

has Toni tried the car? what has he said about it, if so...? i would like to read some quotes from him. i've been bit "out" for a while and i think i've missed some stuff.

[Glee]

A team boss that brings more color in the WRC

[jacko]

Looking to the times today, the old man they put in the car in UK, they will be far away from points next year... Think it will be another Skoda or Hyundai.. I'm not sad, just looking to the facts, i think again when season 2009 starts...

[duff]

The time on ss3 really wasn't bad. If if he beat Stohl, Henning and wilson all in tried and tested cars it can't be all bad can it? Plus he was only 20secs off Pons and 30secs off latvala on a on a 28km stage. I'm just looking on the bright side :)
Bernardi also says (on crash.net) that he didn't even need to pull out of leg 1 as he thought the car was over heating but he was looking at the wrong warning light. Oops!

[Helstar]

A team boss that brings more color in the WRC
Yes he is very funny, always laughing and making faces :D I like him !

The time on ss3 really wasn't bad. If if he beat Stohl, Henning and wilson all in tried and tested cars it can't be all bad can it? Plus he was only 20secs off Pons and 30secs off latvala on a on a 28km stage. I'm just looking on the bright side :)
Bernardi also says (on crash.net) that he didn't even need to pull out of leg 1 as he thought the car was over heating but he was looking at the wrong warning light. Oops!
Wot O_o ? Really ? LOL ok he won't be one of the driver next year, this is really a noob error (and he is one of the testers since months !)

[jonkka]

It's a long way still for Suzuki but so far, so good. Whether they'll become a new Hyundai or new Subaru remains to be seen but as of yet, I am not ready to judge them. Patience.

[Helstar]

from wrc.com

The team discovered that the temperature warning light related to hydraulic fluid rather than water; therefore, the engine was completely undamaged. As a result the SX4 joined the rest of the World Rally Cars this morning under Superally rules to continue its testing process.

"On SS4 I noticed a warning light that said the car was overheating, and I called the team to ask for advice. Unfortunately the line was extremely bad and it was not easy to describe the warning light that we had seen. Rather than risk any further engine damage that could compromise our testing campaign, we decided to switch it off. The ironic thing is that this was completely unnecessary. We've learnt a lot of lessons today - but this was not one that we expected!"

What a BEGINNER !!!

[COD]

from wrc.com

The team discovered that the temperature warning light related to hydraulic fluid rather than water; therefore, the engine was completely undamaged. As a result the SX4 joined the rest of the World Rally Cars this morning under Superally rules to continue its testing process.

"On SS4 I noticed a warning light that said the car was overheating, and I called the team to ask for advice. Unfortunately the line was extremely bad and it was not easy to describe the warning light that we had seen. Rather than risk any further engine damage that could compromise our testing campaign, we decided to switch it off. The ironic thing is that this was completely unnecessary. We've learnt a lot of lessons today - but this was not one that we expected!"

What a BEGINNER !!!

Not totally the drivers fault. The whole team as a team are beginners. Give them some time. They learn by each mistake

[Tom206wrc]

And another retirement due to engine probs today :rolleyes:

[SubaruNorway]

And another retirement due to engine probs today :rolleyes:

There were never any real problems it seems, atleast yesterday, not sure what was the problem today

http://www.wrc.com/page/News/BreakingNewsDetail/0,,10111~1133855,00.html

[L5->R5/CR]

Team said they had an injector break.

There are some things you just can't really find the limits of until you are at a rally...

[Tom206wrc]

Ok... ;)

[koko0703]

So far bit disappointing..... Having problem for a completely new car is nothing but SX4 hasn't shown any flash of speed. I wasn't expecting them to score points or even finish in top 10 but I would've loved to see Suzuki to post top 8 SS time once or twice even if the driver is not top rated.

[Tom206wrc]

I also fear a "new Hyundai" about that car :rolleyes:

[SubaruNorway]

I think the car did great, it was never theire goal to post top times. And as i understand they've done limited tarmac testing

[A.F.F.]

I think the car did great, it was never theire goal to post top times. And as i understand they've done limited tarmac testing

In what terms it did great ?? Held together ?

[bennizw]

The SX4 was very anonynomous through out the whole rally. Never made any great results, and didn't sparkle on the tv reports. Allthough this being it's first rally, I'm not sure it has the potential to go all the way, definitly not with Bernadi and Lindholm. Suzuki will name their drivers after rally GB if I'm not wrong.

[Tomi]

I think it did as expected, hopefully they did get alot of valuable info.

[Glee]

The question is what is the difference between Bernadi and the top field, and what is the difference between "finish at all costs" and "pedal to the metal".

If we can put that in the equation, we can see the true speed of the SX4, at the current level...

[duff]

I think it did as expected, hopefully they did get alot of valuable info.

I agree. And I too hope they woked a few things out.

Lets not forget that this is a brand new car which isn't based on an existing rally car (i.e. they aren't using the Swift or Ignis) and it will be very hard ito produce all of their speed and reliability by even half way through next year.
Ford, Citroen and Subi have all been producing, developing and testing WRCars for many years, and they are all highly proffesional teams who know exactly what they are doing (maybe not as much Subi these days :) ) so If Suzuki showed it had the speed and reliability of these teams straight out of the box it would be miracle.
I think they did a reasonable job on this rally (for a glorified test session) and I'm sure there is a lot more in the car than was shown on the weekend.

Suzuki has shown that they are a proffesional team (with JWRC) and I think we should all hope that they can put it all together (and not become a Skoda or Hyundai) for the sake of the WRC.

[L5->R5/CR]

There are always things that can't be learned on the test sections.

How many times has Subaru said they found big improvements in testing and then have nothing to show for it come rally time?

The Sx4 seemed to handle decently, not be too down on power, and generally get along. The problem on Day One was one of those without a little red mist from competition you'd never think it would be a problem and Day Two was one of those flukes (didn't Ford DNF two cars that had big championship impacts at the moment with failed blow off valves?).

The car put in times for 10-15th with a second rate driver ordered to get maximum miles and minimum points concerns. Until there is a real driver with real orders to go out and see just what they can do the true pace of the current spec won't be worth a damn thing.

I just hope they get the papers filed in 2007 so in the summer of 2008 they can do a full evolution homolgulation to make maximum progress next year.

[grugsticles]

I think Suzuki have had the best outcome they could have from the rally.

Im not saying that they are a poor contender as I believe that they have a superb chance to be champion in a couple of years time, but I think that if they are going to have development problems with their car then what better time to find out about them in the first outing?
The worst thing that can happen is to have some little niggle that doesnt really affect your performance, to go unsolved for a prolonged persiod of time then all of a sudden the issue rears up at you and bites. So, IMO, its best that they do have these couple of set backs on the first outing so they have time to address them before next year.

And as L5->R5/CR (http://rallybase.motorsportforum.com/forums/member.php?u=90254) said, to finish the rally with a second tier driver under strict instuctions to drive conservativly and yet still finish in the to 20 is a superb effort.

Well done Suzuki World Rally Team!

[jacko]

Bernardi is a good tarmac driver, has done many tests with the car, although he was to order to bring the car back in the same way he started the rally, the times are far from impressive. Suzuki will have a full year next season to be closing the gap but i doubt they will succeed in it with or without top-drivers.., at the moment they are at the same point like hyundai or Skoda in their first season and they never closed the gap.
Citroen and Peugeot came in the WRC and they had from the start a competitive car!! That's doing business...

[AndyRAC]

In what terms it did great ?? Held together ?

So it was a great test because it held together? Sorry, but I don't consider it that great a test. Not once did it show Rally winning speed. If it had done the odd quick stage but was unreliable then yes, but it was relatively slow AND unreliable!! How's that good, it's no good just tootling around, it needs to be driven at Rally speed. I hope I'm wrong but I fear another Hyundai or Skoda, Seat!! Agree with the above post, both PSA reams came in and were fast straight away, if unreliable, that can be fixed.

[cut the b.s.]

Bernardi is a good tarmac driver, has done many tests with the car, although he was to order to bring the car back in the same way he started the rally, the times are far from impressive. Suzuki will have a full year next season to be closing the gap but i doubt they will succeed in it with or without top-drivers.., at the moment they are at the same point like hyundai or Skoda in their first season and they never closed the gap.
Citroen and Peugeot came in the WRC and they had from the start a competitive car!! That's doing business...




So it was a great test because it held together? Sorry, but I don't consider it that great a test. Not once did it show Rally winning speed. If it had done the odd quick stage but was unreliable then yes, but it was relatively slow AND unreliable!! How's that good, it's no good just tootling around, it needs to be driven at Rally speed. I hope I'm wrong but I fear another Hyundai or Skoda, Seat!! Agree with the above post, both PSA reams came in and were fast straight away, if unreliable, that can be fixed.

Cheer up guys, either way its 2 more seats to be filled and hopefully opportunities for at theat 1 new to wrc driver to have a go next year.

Realisticaly what did you expect? Where do you think Bernardi could have finished in a Focus or a Citroen? Give them a chance, they have done a good job at JWRC level and sure its a big step up but they know that and knew it before they tried it, you havent seen their full hand yet....

[jacko]

Cheer up guys, either way its 2 more seats to be filled and hopefully opportunities for at theat 1 new to wrc driver to have a go next year.

Realisticaly what did you expect? Where do you think Bernardi could have finished in a Focus or a Citroen? Give them a chance, they have done a good job at JWRC level and sure its a big step up but they know that and knew it before they tried it, you havent seen their full hand yet....

I'm happy to see a new manufacturer involved in the WRC, that's no discussion. But what i've seen so far on Corsica, the 1 driver for each round what they are doing this year, specially Lindholm for UK as the driver which i don't understand and why not doing Ireland also this year?. No i think this will not be a winning team ( not even close ) in the next 2 years. Even Subaru has plenty of xperience but struggles for years now to close the gap, Mitsibushi never build a good WRC car, the quality of both Ford & Citroen is very high and you must be a hell of a driver to find seconds what your car can't ( see the Subaru's as the perfect example, even Duval in the older Xsara is a nice example).

And about Bernardi, he's a good tarmac driver and with a C4 or Focus 2007 he was doing top5 times.

Suzuki's performance in the JWRC is good but the real show is now started :)

[Finni]

Bernardi is definitely good asphalt driver. When he was replacing Märtin in Peugeot he consistently matched Marcus' stage times in Catalunya (in second and third day).

For me Suzuki was dissappointment. I just hope that this performance was not indicative about ultimate potential of the car - as it tends to be so often.

[Tomi]

The Suzuki teamboss said in TV interview yesterday that their aim is to reach top 10 positions next year and maybe some podiums the year after that, so at least he walks on the ground, it's not very easy to build a car that winns right out from scratches.
In my opinion its no point to compaire Suzukis WRC project to Skoda or Hyundais project, the key people is same in this project that worked in Peugeots project, and Peugeot did quite well.
To Jacko, why is so difficult to understand that Suzuki want put a guy who have been working for months developing the car and will continiue the work after that too, to drive in for the team resultwise meaningless event.

[Tom206wrc]

Cheer up guys, either way its 2 more seats to be filled and hopefully opportunities for at theat 1 new to wrc driver to have a go next year.

Realisticaly what did you expect? Where do you think Bernardi could have finished in a Focus or a Citroen? Give them a chance, they have done a good job at JWRC level and sure its a big step up but they know that and knew it before they tried it, you havent seen their full hand yet....




True, but what we need are seats for drivers able to give Citroën and Ford the fight for their money, not some more driver seats just to offer Matt "Wilslow" a small fight far behind !!! :mark:

[Tom206wrc]

The Suzuki teamboss said in TV interview yesterday that their aim is to reach top 10 positions next year and maybe some podiums the year after that...



Strange I'm sure some times before Corsica that same "Monster" Tajima said he want fight for podiums already in 2008 :rolleyes:

[jonkka]

People are so desperate to have another challenger to Citroen's supremacy that new teams aren't given a chance. I don't mind if Suzuki will be another Skoda (ie. making up the numbers but not challenging for top honours) as long as they stick in WRC. Not everyone can win and for me participation is enough.

[Finni]

People are so desperate to have another challenger to Citroen's supremacy that new teams aren't given a chance. I don't mind if Suzuki will be another Skoda (ie. making up the numbers but not challenging for top honours) as long as they stick in WRC. Not everyone can win and for me participation is enough.

I don't think anyone should expect them to match Citroen or Ford but in the long run they should find at least Subaru's current level. Having in mind their performance in past rally I am sceptical if they will achieve even Subaru's current level.

Is there ever been any rookie team in wrc which has been so much off the pace as Suzuki was now?

[A.F.F.]

Strange I'm sure some times before Corsica that same "Monster" Tajima said he want fight for podiums already in 2008 :rolleyes:

That's true. I read the same.

[jacko]

[quote="Tomi"]The Suzuki teamboss said in TV interview yesterday that their aim is to reach top 10 positions next year and maybe some podiums the year after that, so at least he walks on the ground, QUOTE]

well, before the rally he was talking about podiums already.. he's becoming very fast a realistic teamboss, now his cars...

[jacko]

In my opinion its no point to compaire Suzukis WRC project to Skoda or Hyundais project, the key people is same in this project that worked in Peugeots project, and Peugeot did quite well.
To Jacko, why is so difficult to understand that Suzuki want put a guy who have been working for months developing the car and will continiue the work after that too, to drive in for the team resultwise meaningless event.
That people from Peugeot don't have the same start compare Peugeot's time back in 1999. Peugeot first 1/2 season was also to test etc. with drivers with a name: Delecour, Panizzi and Gronholm. Also the car's performance compare eachother are miles away, in the negative way for Suzuki.
Looking for the future it's for me difficult to understand why they (still) not have signed the drivers for next year, why only start with one driver ( is only one feedback ) on each round, why not Ireland also, why given a guy like Lindstrom the car when he will not be involved that much next year ( all the teams have limited testing days, all the team-drivers doing the test work by themselfs, no Pykalisto, no Meeke, no Kresta, no Martin, no Hagstrom, no other specialist and no Lindholm next year). Only to thank you for doing some test work given you the UK drive is completly bull-xxxx. They could be better taken a young driver like Wilks or PG Andersson to have some extra feedback about the car. Or if they have already signed a driver for next year to give that driver the car. Or Gardemeister, he has all what Suzuki needs next year..
The mission in the UK will be the same as in Corsica, bring back the car in the same way you started the rally... every respectable driver can do this job and what do you have really on this information?
I think they need a driver with a mission: drive as fast as possible to gain experience and compare where you are compare your rivals. Lindholm isn't the man for top speed, he never was. He's a good driver, good tester but with all respect from me :) that's it!

[Tomi]

That people from Peugeot don't have the same start compare Peugeot's time back in 1999. Peugeot first 1/2 season was also to test etc. with drivers with a name: Delecour, Panizzi and Gronholm. Also the car's performance compare eachother are miles away, in the negative way for Suzuki.
Looking for the future it's for me difficult to understand why they (still) not have signed the drivers for next year, why only start with one driver ( is only one feedback ) on each round, why not Ireland also, why given a guy like Lindstrom the car when he will not be involved that much next year ( all the teams have limited testing days, all the team-drivers doing the test work by themselfs, no Pykalisto, no Meeke, no Kresta, no Martin, no Hagstrom, no other specialist and no Lindholm next year). Only to thank you for doing some test work given you the UK drive is completly bull-xxxx. They could be better taken a young driver like Wilks or PG Andersson to have some extra feedback about the car. Or if they have already signed a driver for next year to give that driver the car. Or Gardemeister, he has all what Suzuki needs next year..
The mission in the UK will be the same as in Corsica, bring back the car in the same way you started the rally... every respectable driver can do this job and what do you have really on this information?
I think they need a driver with a mission: drive as fast as possible to gain experience and compare where you are compare your rivals. Lindholm isn't the man for top speed, he never was. He's a good driver, good tester but with all respect from me :) that's it!

Yes this would make some sence if they would take it as an event, but now its only a test, reason that they are in the entrylist is if not being there they could not drive.

[Finni]

The fact that Nandan had his fingers on 307 is not necessarily a merit..

[COD]

The Suzuki teamboss said in TV interview yesterday that their aim is to reach top 10 positions next year and maybe some podiums the year after that, so at least he walks on the ground, QUOTE]

well, before the rally he was talking about podiums already.. he's becoming very fast a realistic teamboss, now his cars...

That interview was made in the launch of the car a month or so back. From where the "news" about him saying podiums 2008 are coming is hard to say.

But he also said in the interview that he would be interested in hiring Juha Kankkunen or Ari Vatanen, so maybe his humour is sometimes misinterpreted??

I'm so surprised that so few here understand that what Suzuki is doing this year in these two events is using them as test, as real full size rally is almost impossible to simulate in tests. They use their testdrivers as pilots, because they can give the best feedback compared to tests. What feedback could PG for example give, as he has never driven a WRC car???

[DonJippo]

They could be better taken a young driver like Wilks or PG Andersson to have some extra feedback about the car.

Yes...other with little and other one with no experience of WRC... :dozey:

[Tomi]

I'm so surprised that so few here understand that what Suzuki is doing this year in these two events is using them as test

Really?? I'm not at all surprised.

[COD]

Really?? I'm not at all surprised.

You are right, it shouldn't have surprised me either

[BDunnell]

People are so desperate to have another challenger to Citroen's supremacy that new teams aren't given a chance. I don't mind if Suzuki will be another Skoda (ie. making up the numbers but not challenging for top honours) as long as they stick in WRC. Not everyone can win and for me participation is enough.

You're quite right that no-one should be critical of them if they don't achieve great success this year or next. People are far too quick to deem things 'failures' in motorsport nowadays if they don't win immediately. However, I'd hate to see Suzuki emulating Nissan's Sunny GTiR programme, which was an abject lesson on the part of a Japanese manufacturer (I say that very deliberately) in how not to go about a WRC entry.

[AndyRAC]

I don't think anybody was expecting miracles from Suzuki, but maybe a glimpse of speed together with the expected unreliability. But being brutally honest, it wasn't fast. Yes, we must be patient, but you sometimes get a feeling straightaway whether a car will be successful or not. Personally, I don't think it is going to be fast, but for Suzuki and the WRC's sake, I hope it turns out to be quick. And I can eat humble pie.....

[duff]

Realisticaly what did you expect? Where do you think Bernardi could have finished in a Focus or a Citroen? Give them a chance, they have done a good job at JWRC level and sure its a big step up but they know that and knew it before they tried it, you havent seen their full hand yet....


What he said.

Slow down guys and wait to see what they do late next year instead of writing them off from the outset.

It was a test, it was their first rally and Bernardi was under the stricktest of orders to stay on the road (i.e. not drive the thing to its limit).

Maybe if he or another driver was driving it to its limit a couple of the stage times could have been better. Its worth remembering that in the WRC if you drive at 95% intead of 100% you end up being miles off the pace (look at Stohl on this rally).

Also if you are to compare the SX4 to the top cars (which is inevitable) just remember that they are faster than last years cars, which were faster than the year before and so on. It is all about evolving the car and the teams experience. One thing is for sure that it is harder to make a rally winning car now than it was 5,6,7,8 years ago purely because the top teams have been making cars, gathering information and evolving for many years in the WRC.
Maybe the SX4 would be beating the Xsara when it first appeared in the WRC. They were built under nearly the same rules so why not compare them as first evolutions of a WRC car by a new WRC team?

As for reliability, this rally was to test the car to see if the knid of things that happened to it would happen. No matter what Tajima said before the rally about results (I think putting a positive spin on it to keep the bosses happy) that is what they were doing there, testing, albeit on the world stage.

But the point is that I don't know the true potential of the car any better than anybody else, but lets all give it a chance and wait until at least next year to start judging it.
we should hope that suzuki can put it all together so that we may have another challenger in the WRC, two more competative seats for drivers and to show to other manufacturers that it can be possible.

We should all be hoping for these things.

[jacko]

I'm so surprised that so few here understand that what Suzuki is doing this year in these two events is using them as test, as real full size rally is almost impossible to simulate in tests. They use their testdrivers as pilots, because they can give the best feedback compared to tests. What feedback could PG for example give, as he has never driven a WRC car???

it's a bit of waste of time to use the same test drivers, specially Lindholm,when they have the same speed like in a test.. Question: what new information have or will they found in these rally's with limited speed??
PG is maybe not the best example, i mentoined also others,they hired Duval also for a day for new input, that's doing business in my eyes..

[Zes]

Question: what new information have or will they found in these rally's with limited speed??

That's exactly what I have been thinking. If I were a Suzuki boss, I would like to know how fast is Suzuki compared to the others. You don't need a rally to do cruising.

[leno]

i do not expect lot from suzuki because other manufacturers have much more experiance so it is impossible to catch them and have competitive car

[DonJippo]

it's a bit of waste of time to use the same test drivers, specially Lindholm,when they have the same speed like in a test.. Question: what new information have or will they found in these rally's with limited speed??

What new information would they find with using one off driver with no experience of the car? He could not even tell was the change in set-up for better or worse, that's why teams use same drivers in their tests as well, they have the experience to say how did the change effect in the car.

[Addicted]

The fact that Nandan had his fingers on 307 is not necessarily a merit..

Was it Nandan or Peugeot`s marketing people who wanted to create this 307 WRC monster? Nandan did what he could with his hands tied on.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Wouldn't Suzuki want to also enter their Home rally Japan? even though its not their home base and Hungary is....

[Tom206wrc]

Japan entrylist is closed,so... :mark:

[jonkka]

i do not expect lot from suzuki because other manufacturers have much more experiance so it is impossible to catch them and have competitive car

Funny that nobody said that to Peugeot in 1983 or again in 1998.

Every new team must start somewhere and having no prior experience is not a barrier, merely a hindrance. It is a lot more difficult to gain an edge these days because WRCar rules have been used to exhaustion, when for example Peugeot joined in 1999 WRCars of the era were quite basic and usually built upon GrA car technology. With advanced electronics Peugeot was able to gain and to a degree, sustain an edge.

The task that Suzuki is facing is daunting but not impossible. There is no miracle recipe for instant success, it demands a lot of patience and hard work.

[jonkka]

Was it Nandan or Peugeot`s marketing people who wanted to create this 307 WRC monster? Nandan did what he could with his hands tied on.

And I don't think it was Nandan's idea to switch to Pirellis. Just watch last years results to see how good car 307WRC was when on Michelins. Nandan can be blamed for four-speed gearbox and unreliability of the mechanical parts but that might be due to rush-job that 307 was. Among others, Gronholm pressed for a new car.

[BDunnell]

Funny that nobody said that to Peugeot in 1983 or again in 1998.

Neither the 205 T16 nor the 206 WRC were successful on their very first outings, though. Many people, it seems, have a go if a new car doesn't win first time out now.

[Tom206wrc]

Neither the 205 T16 nor the 206 WRC were successful on their very first outings, though. Many people, it seems, have a go if a new car doesn't win first time out now.



Yeah but at least they showed well better pace for their first outing than than the Suz' :s

[jonkka]

Both cars led the rally on their debut (Corsica 1984 and 1999 respectively) but I think neither is very relevant to SX4WRC because both 205T16 and 206WRC were revolutionary cars.

I think that much better comparison is Subaru's early years, project started with Legacy in 1990 and first win was scored in 1993. Or Mitsubishi Lancer, Evo I wasn't really spectacular but already EvoII was a winner.

[BDunnell]

Both cars led the rally on their debut (Corsica 1984 and 1999 respectively) but I think neither is very relevant to SX4WRC because both 205T16 and 206WRC were revolutionary cars.

I think that much better comparison is Subaru's early years, project started with Legacy in 1990 and first win was scored in 1993. Or Mitsubishi Lancer, Evo I wasn't really spectacular but already EvoII was a winner.

Agreed.

[COD]

Or Mitsubishi Lancer, Evo I wasn't really spectacular but already EvoII was a winner.


Not to mention that Mitsu had been involved a few years with the Galant before that. They won a few events in it yeas, but wasn't a top overall car at all

[L5->R5/CR]

That's exactly what I have been thinking. If I were a Suzuki boss, I would like to know how fast is Suzuki compared to the others. You don't need a rally to do cruising.


Here is one way to think about it.

You have two events to test your car before 2008. You can focus on one of two things: 1) You can work on making the car the most reliable it can be as a new car for when you run all of the events or 2) you can try to make the car as fast as possible but probably less reliable.

Keeping in mind that in terms of competitiveness real rally stage miles are the only way to measure how good you are compared to the rest of the field and that no amount of testing can really simulate real stage conditions, would you rather show glimpses of being good and racking up tons of DNFs or get consistent mileage out of each event and work on closing the gap.

I just think it is more important for Suzuki to try to have a car that doesn't need Super Rally that they can develop and evolve next year rather than a car that is faster but needs Super Rally a lot to finish events so they have to focus on reliability as much as performance... With that in mind having drivers that know the car pretty well will be the best chance of being able to tell you if there are problems with the car or not.

[N]

They are not just testing the car, but the way the whole team functions + car with these events this year. I think that they will be as good as Subaru next year. :)

[cut the b.s.]

Originally Posted by jonkka
Or Mitsubishi Lancer, Evo I wasn't really spectacular but already EvoII was a winner.



Not to mention that Mitsu had been involved a few years with the Galant before that. They won a few events in it yeas, but wasn't a top overall car at all



And Ford played with 4wd for over 20 years before they got a WRC title!!

A lot of people posting on here seem to know little about rallying, Peugeot and Citroens entrance at the top was very different to any other team bar Audi(who had a whole new concept in a very different era and quite litterally took things to a different level) Both these teams had tested very extensively before coming in, particularly in Citroens case for so long that we were actually getting impatient for them to get the finger out and to come and do it for real.
The important things for any new team is realistic ambitions of what can be done in the early years and wads of cash, if Suzuki has these and particularly the latter they can do as well as they want to, but people please remember they are joining rallying at a time it is possibly at its most competitive and advanced ever(I'm talking technically, I know we only have 2 drivers fighting for wins)

[BDunnell]

The important things for any new team is realistic ambitions of what can be done in the early years and wads of cash

Very true. Nissan had one but not the other. That was a major part of their undoing.

[jacko]

A lot of people posting on here seem to know little about rallying...

wow, we got here some doctor :eek:

I'm for sure one of those people with a little knowledge lol.
Why not given some negative critism to Suzuki as when i looking so far what they are doing in my eyes it's all of a bit, but far from enough. A test driver like Lindholm (who won't be a test driver next year as there are limits on testing days) put in the car in rally Great Britian, why still not signed drivers as there are plenty good drivers available right now, the speed the showing last weekend is far from impressive, some people think they will be at the same level like Subaru.. well no, far from that and i think top-drivers like Gardemeister or Duval won't be happy in the Suzuki. I'm pleased with every car manufacturer involved in the WRC but so far it won't be a Peugeot or Citroen and it's damn hard to catch up, ask Seat, Skoda, Hyundai, Mitsibushi (2 times) and even Subaru about this story and right now you can put Suzuki behind those names..
Where do you find information Suzuki will succeed because i see nothing in that direction?
Do you think Ford and Citroen will be sleeping or so for 2 years?

[cut the b.s.]

wow, we got here some doctor :eek:



Damn, rumbled.......

Also, I have not said Suzuki will or wont succeed, only too be glad they are trying, now shut the **** up and give them a chance, now is that clear enough for you?

[jparker]

Most people here don't know what the goals of Skoda and Hunday were, so we can't say they failed. They may have achieved what they aimed for. Same applies to Suzuki.

[COD]

A lot of people posting on here seem to know little about rallying

:laugh: :up:

Also funny how Lindholm is bashed here so badly before he has driven. You guys should look at his previous results and especially experience in both rallying and testing (both the Pug and Suzuki) before making such ridicolous comments.

[Helstar]

The fact that Nandan had his fingers on 307 is not necessarily a merit..
But as some other said, I think he didn't choose to build that 'whale'.

Now ... SX4 is a very tiny car, so he's possibly doing a better work, applying 'ideas' he couldn't use with the 307 monster.

I think the difference between Suzuki and Citroen/Ford is mainly on the engine if you ask me. The whale was 'fast' (kind of) because of the engine power and raw speed. So let's hope Suzuki can find some extra engine speed, the car being the tinyest should be quite stable in the corners (more compared to the 307 for sure !).

And if they take two good drivers for next year (for me Duval/Garde + Galli would be the best), they could even beat Subaru :p

Ps. Who did the designing work on the PWRC Suzuki car ?

[jacko]

Also, I have not said Suzuki will or wont succeed, only too be glad they are trying, now shut the **** up and give them a chance, now is that clear enough for you?

well well.. hard words but if i'm right you started this thread with the Question: What can we expect from the SX4 WRC?
May i have my own opinon or not dude?

At the moment there's really nothing what me impressed so far. Mostly i'm not negative here on the forum but if people think Lindholm is perfectly made for making the car fast etc. than i have something against that thinking and so far after 1 rally we can conclude the car is not reliable with limited speed...

And yes, i'm happy to see Suzuki coming, but if the results are pretty bad i prefer to see some extra Ford B-team or Kronos next year...

[Tom206wrc]

Most people here don't know what the goals of Skoda and Hunday were, so we can't say they failed. They may have achieved what they aimed for. Same applies to Suzuki.



I think it's easy to guess Skoda and Hyundai aimed to win a few rallies, no ??? :D

[L5->R5/CR]

well well.. hard words but if i'm right you started this thread with the Question: What can we expect from the SX4 WRC?
May i have my own opinon or not dude?

At the moment there's really nothing what me impressed so far. Mostly i'm not negative here on the forum but if people think Lindholm is perfectly made for making the car fast etc. than i have something against that thinking and so far after 1 rally we can conclude the car is not reliable with limited speed...

And yes, i'm happy to see Suzuki coming, but if the results are pretty bad i prefer to see some extra Ford B-team or Kronos next year...




I think it makes more sense for Suzuki to get its team working in a real rally environment and get the car as reliable as possible rather than fast.

At least if the car is reliable they will be able to get maximum distance next year when they can really work on developing the car and have a reliable opportunity to bench mark the performance differences from event to event. If Suzuki went back and made radical changes for WRGB because they were slowish at Corsica they might end up going the wrong direction and lose valuable kms of rally experience for the engineers, mechanics, and bosses no to mention the car in its current form.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but if Suzuki has any delusions about a multiple year commitment then it would be better to focus on being reliable rather than fast.

[DonJippo]

but if people think Lindholm is perfectly made for making the car fast etc. than i have something against that thinking and so far after 1 rally we can conclude the car is not reliable with limited speed...

Peugeot did think that but what would they know :rolleyes:

[jacko]

Peugeot did think that but what would they know :rolleyes:

When Lindholm was involved at peugeot the car was already fast, Lindholm himselfs was also a bit younger and driving much more competitive (but never impressive against the world top drivers!).
And if you think he was very important for Peugeot why was the 307 such a strange car too drive after the succes 206 car.. but you always find your answers...
I think it's a normal decision made by Suzuki too take a very experience driver like Lindholm for some test but i'm missing some other (faster) driver(s) and for sure that other driver(s) had to drive in the UK.

[GigiGalliNo1]

my question is...why don't they get a rally winning driver like for example pannizzi who has won rallyes compared to Lindholm (who I don't know the history of) and get feedback from a winining driver then Lindholm. To me Lindholm might be like getting Schwartz back in the seat to drive for them. not winning a rally in a long long time! :( :s

[Woodeye]

my question is...why don't they get a rally winning driver like for example pannizzi who has won rallyes compared to Lindholm (who I don't know the history of) and get feedback from a winining driver then Lindholm. To me Lindholm might be like getting Schwartz back in the seat to drive for them. not winning a rally in a long long time! :( :s

Why would they take whining driver like Panizzi?

Lindholm is the right man to drive and test the car. It's the experience that talks. I think it's a bit the drivers own speed is bit irrelevant in this case. It's the ability to build a car that counts.

[cut the b.s.]

[quote="jacko"]well well.. hard words but if i'm right you started this thread with the Question: What can we expect from the SX4 WRC?
May i have my own opinon or not dude?

[quote]

I didnt start this thread, and when Lalo started it before rally Corsica I'm quessing that he was wondering what peoples hopes and expectations were, I'm also quessing he didnt expect or hope for it to turn into a thread where keyboard Frequelins insulted the 1st efforts of a new entrant that we should all be glad to welcome to the WRC

Oh, you can have your opinions for sure, but please if you are insisting on sharing them try to have informed opinions, they are worth more than opinions for their own sake.....

[Brother John]

I see here 107 posts talking about nothing. :rolleyes: ;)

[Tomi]

my question is...why don't they get a rally winning driver like for example pannizzi who has won rallyes compared to Lindholm

Maybe because Panizzi knows nothing about to drive on gravel.

[Daniel]

my question is...why don't they get a rally winning driver like for example pannizzi who has won rallyes compared to Lindholm (who I don't know the history of) and get feedback from a winining driver then Lindholm. To me Lindholm might be like getting Schwartz back in the seat to drive for them. not winning a rally in a long long time! :( :s
A good rally driver doesn't necessarily make a great test driver.

[Dingardo]

Lindholm is the right man to drive and test the car. It's the experience that talks. I think it's a bit the drivers own speed is bit irrelevant in this case. It's the ability to build a car that counts.


I completely agree, Suzuki are not looking to achieve any great results in their two rallies, all they are doing is laying the foundations for next year. Lindholm is the perfect man to build that foundation for gravel due to his past experience and technical ability. Sure he is no where near the quickest driver, but in terms of the experience and knowledge he is giving to Suzuki it more than makes up for it.

[Micke_VOC]

Lindholm is good choice for Wales, he have tested the car, have lot of experience of testing wrc-cars+ fast driver on gravel. Just look the results of Rally Finland a few years ago.

There is more good drivers, but all i think have the brain to want to be number one in the rally and Suzuki needs a lot of test miles, a lot of risk to winning is not equal to lot of test miles.

[jonkka]

my question is...why don't they get a rally winning driver like for example pannizzi who has won rallyes compared to Lindholm (who I don't know the history of) and get feedback from a winining driver then Lindholm. To me Lindholm might be like getting Schwartz back in the seat to drive for them. not winning a rally in a long long time! :( :s

Do you know if they tried? What if they asked but got no as an answer. Role of a development driver isn't exactly the bill that some drivers want especially if they don't need the money or experience.

[GigiGalliNo1]

I didn't want everyone to think and say why not Pannizzi! Sorry I just got a name out of a hat, I could have said another driver woops, like Jesus Puras or Sarizzan. But anyways I get your point. I just don't know any history of Lindholm....just checking his website and stuff... ok :)

[koko0703]

I thought Panizzi was already involved with Peugeot 207 S2000 development, and I don't know if Sarrazin is a good test driver for a rally cars considering his relatively short experience with rallying. And Jesus Puras, I have no comment whether he is good or bad since I haven't heard about him for long.

If not Bernardi and Lindholm but still want specifically a test driver, the only driver I can think of is Rovanpera. He has done lots of testing with Peugeot and got involved with Mitsu's development. Rovis is not good on tarmac but the same goes for Lindholm, too.

[COD]

When Lindholm was involved at peugeot the car was already fast, Lindholm himselfs was also a bit younger and driving much more competitive (but never impressive against the world top drivers!).
.


Yeh, being second in rally Finland in 2004 (before retiring) against all the top drivers is so NOT impressive :laugh:

[A.F.F.]

Yeh, being second in rally Finland in 2004 (before retiring) against all the top drivers is so NOT impressive :laugh:

To be honest, the reason for his retirement wasn't too impressive ;)

But, fast and usually consistent he is. And a perfect choise for test driver :up:

[pantealex]

Don´t forget that change of one driver is possible even after entries is closed and Lindholms co-driver Tomi Tuominen is also Gardemaisters co-driver...

[jacko]

Yeh, being second in rally Finland in 2004 (before retiring) against all the top drivers is so NOT impressive :laugh:
lol, so you have found something finally but if i'm right he was driving over his max. because he crashed...
Lindholm is average driver, nothing more, good for some test work but not for making the car fast, for sure not now with his age.

[DonJippo]

lol, so you have found something finally but if i'm right he was driving over his max. because he crashed...
Lindholm is average driver, nothing more, good for some test work but not for making the car fast, for sure not now with his age.

Well Suzuki has decided to use him as their test driver and also in Wales regardless of what you think so we just have to wait and see what happens.

[A.F.F.]

Well Suzuki has decided to use him as their test driver and also in Wales regardless of what you think so we just have to wait and see what happens.

:up:

Thread closed. ;)

[COD]

Lindholm is average driver, nothing more, good for some test work but not for making the car fast, for sure not now with his age.

Our average drivers are still so much better than the best from most countries that they get selected for important jobs like this... :D

[morfn]

Onboard videos of Sebastian Lindholm testing Suzuki SX4 WRC in Mezamet France in the begining of November can be found from his website at http://www.sebateam.fi - in Basti TV -section!

[jonas_mcrae]

Onboard videos of Sebastian Lindholm testing Suzuki SX4 WRC in Mezamet France in the begining of November can be found from his website at http://www.sebateam.fi - in Basti TV -section!

Nice vids thanks! It looks like it handles nicely at high speeds (in 4th and 5th specially in the second vid, around 0.40) but im not sure about the times it is in 2nd and 1st gear. In slow corners it seems to be still a bit sluggish. Also not sure how good it is when braking and having to speed up all the way from 1st or 2nd, it doesnt look like having the acceleration the focus can maintain all the way while in 2nd and 3rd...

[Tom206wrc]

I thought Panizzi was already involved with Peugeot 207 S2000 development, and I don't know if Sarrazin is a good test driver for a rally cars considering his relatively short experience with rallying. And Jesus Puras, I have no comment whether he is good or bad since I haven't heard about him for long.

If not Bernardi and Lindholm but still want specifically a test driver, the only driver I can think of is Rovanpera. He has done lots of testing with Peugeot and got involved with Mitsu's development. Rovis is not good on tarmac but the same goes for Lindholm, too.




Sarrazin is official Peugeot driver in Endurance racing ;)

So IF he is back on some rallies next year, that can only be in a 207 S2000 :p :

[jonas_mcrae]

And Jesus Puras, I have no comment whether he is good or bad since I haven't heard about him for long.

.

Puras is doing the spanish tarmac championship (or was doing) in an gr.N Evo, he is also helping to develop a rally version Ferrari F360 Modena with Piedrafita Sport (they developed Xsara Kit car, Citroen ZX and even a C2 S1600 i think... not sure) here an interview with him in spanish http://www.todorallyes.es/reportajesentrevistas/Entrevista-a-Jesus-Puras-10-2007-49194.html

but really I see no connection

[Tom206wrc]

It's time to wake up this thread again now :p :

[koko0703]

It's time to wake up this thread again now :p :

I almost forgot about this thread....that's pretty much what I wanna say about Suzuki's performance in Wales. I understand they are there to test but.... I would like to see little more speed even if the driver's not in the top form.

[Brother John]

What can we expect from the SX4 WRC?

Well at the moment.........I would say....nothing........ :(

[pino]

I expect Gigi to drive it in Sweden ;)

[Le NaRcX]

What can we expect from the SX4 WRC?

Well at the moment.........I would say....nothing........ :(

+1

[Tom206wrc]

I expect Gigi to drive it in Sweden ;)




Do you have infos or rumours about that ?? :eek:

[pino]

Do you have infos or rumours about that ?? :eek:

Unfortunately not :( ...that's just a hope :)

[Langdale Forest]

I don't think Suzuki will ever be sucsessful in the WRC.

[Micke_VOC]

Say what u want about suzuki, but the sound of the car is great !!!!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pzzGYvxC_mI

[Woodeye]

My hopes with Suzuki pretty much crashed and burned when Michel Nandan commented the development of the car in Helsingin Sanomat yesterday.

Basically what he said was that the car was pretty much ready when he arrived to the team, so there's a quite a little room for improvements at the moment. But even worriying is that Nandan also said that they don't have enough MONEY to be competitive. And if you look at their performance in Wales it really isn't too promising.

Hopefully I'm wrong. WRC needs one more competitive team at the moment more than ever.

[Tom206wrc]

Strange that an engeneer of the team has such comment about the car :s

Usually they don't declare such things in public, that goes against the marketing and the image of the make, no ?? :confused:

[Tomi]

Strange that an engeneer of the team has such comment about the car :s

Usually they don't declare such things in public, that goes against the marketing and the image of the make, no ?? :confused:

true, seems that he wants to leave the team, normally they dont solve problems in newspapers.

[dimviii]

Tom if your name is Nandan and have create cars such 206wrc it is more ''easy'' to say that
Nandan receives money from suzuki for his knowledge and technical excellency
if it is right that he found an almost ready car from japan and it is impossible to fix it as he is know, i wish to be false but, if the project is not ''right'' from the drawing border it is useless to expect something faster than that we see now
my 5 cents

[Helstar]

Unfortunately, we can expect nothing good :(

And it seems the situation can only get worse reading those words...

[AndyRAC]

Having watched the Rally, my feeling is that they are going to be another Seat, Hyundai, Skoda - if they're lucky! The car is unreliable, but more worryingly slow! If it was fast and unreliable then that's okay. At the moment it doesn't look promising.

[Brother John]

I expect Gigi to drive it in Sweden ;)

I want to see Gigi in Sweden in a competive and reliable car.
Who ever will drive the Suzuki next year, it will be not good for his career. :dozey:

[tmx]

Iit is still in early stage, and they havent had a recent experienced wrc driver to drive it. I can't make any judgement as of now.

Giving their success in the JWRC, I can't imagine it can be that bad.

[pino]

Is there a comment/explanation from the Team after this poor performance ?


I want to see Gigi in Sweden in a competive and reliable car.
Who ever will drive the Suzuki next year, it will be not good for his career. :dozey:

Sweden is the only event on the Calender where skills counts more than the car :p :

[GigiGalliNo1]

Sooo.... does this mean no Suzuki nxt year?

Someone just answer that please?

Hi Pino! :D

[Tomi]

I think Suzuki will continiue as planned, Gardemeister as nr1 driver, why should this test change anything?
Also I belive if the second driver can beat Gardemeister by driving it will do good for his carreer.

[Juha]

Sweden is the only event on the Calender where skills counts more than the car :p :
Gigis' skills won't be of much use if the car breaks down on day 1. :p

[GigiGalliNo1]

Lol Juha

[Tomi]

Gigis' skills won't be of much use if the car breaks down on day 1. :p

quite normal for him

[Danc]

Having watched the Rally, my feeling is that they are going to be another Seat, Hyundai, Skoda - if they're lucky! The car is unreliable, but more worryingly slow! If it was fast and unreliable then that's okay. At the moment it doesn't look promising.

What are these comments based on? Suzuki made it clear from the start that the two events they've done this year were for testing purposes.
The issues on the first day were caused by a rock cutting the brakeline other than that the car has been relliable.
It's impossible to judge Suzuki's pace until Monte Carlo when they get going properley having sewn up several championship classes with the Swift in various guises i've every faith the team have the engineering skills to produce a good car but only time will tell.

Any new manufacturer who makes the commitment to build and run a wrc car should be embraced. Suzuki have supported young talent in several levels of rallying and i've no doubt they'll continue to do so.

[Tom206wrc]

...
Sweden is the only event on the Calender where skills counts more than the car :p :



Then give Gigi a Lada or a Trabant it would be even cheaper than the Suz' :p :

[Helstar]

I want to see Gigi in Sweden in a competive and reliable car.
Who ever will drive the Suzuki next year, it will be not good for his career. :dozey:
Agree 100%


Sweden is the only event on the Calender where skills counts more than the car :p :
Yes but you can see back in Sweden 2005 what happens with an unreliable car ! A deep delusion...

[miksu]

i Try to summarise a bit what Toni Gardemeister and Co-driver Tomi Tuominen have said about the car in the finnish media during the winter.

They had tests for monte and for sweden, and Toni said there's still lot of work to do, but the feeling after both tests were left positive. When asked if the steps in performance feel bigger when the car is at this stage of its developement, he said "of course, and thats the only way it can be. Even after monte tests and now in Sweden the car seemed to get better between those tests, maybe some is because different set up, but still it felt much better".
He has said that the car feels easy to drive, but its still lacking pace compared to top teams. They have found good set ups for both monte and Sweden, but as now there's no snow at the roads in Sweden, unlike in their test, who knows what will happen there. Regular points are their goal for next season.
Tomi Tuominen who was also Co-driving at Wales, said we shouldn't look so much at those times, since they were only gathering miles and cruising there and the real racing starts now.
But as whole, they feel positive and motivated with their new team and you can see how they have fun testing and improving the car.

[A.F.F.]

i Try to summarise a bit what Toni Gardemeister and Co-driver Tomi Tuominen have said about the car in the finnish media during the winter.

They had tests for monte and for sweden, and Toni said there's still lot of work to do, but the feeling after both tests were left positive. When asked if the steps in performance feel bigger when the car is at this stage of its developement, he said "of course, and thats the only way it can be. Even after monte tests and now in Sweden the car seemed to get better between those tests, maybe some is because different set up, but still it felt much better".
He has said that the car feels easy to drive, but its still lacking pace compared to top teams. They have found good set ups for both monte and Sweden, but as now there's no snow at the roads in Sweden, unlike in their test, who knows what will happen there. Regular points are their goal for next season.
Tomi Tuominen who was also Co-driving at Wales, said we shouldn't look so much at those times, since they were only gathering miles and cruising there and the real racing starts now.
But as whole, they feel positive and motivated with their new team and you can see how they have fun testing and improving the car.

I wonder how positive they feel AFTER reality hits them faces and they see how far behind they are from top pace :s

[Woodeye]

i Try to summarise a bit what Toni Gardemeister and Co-driver Tomi Tuominen have said about the car in the finnish media during the winter.

They had tests for monte and for sweden, and Toni said there's still lot of work to do, but the feeling after both tests were left positive. When asked if the steps in performance feel bigger when the car is at this stage of its developement, he said "of course, and thats the only way it can be. Even after monte tests and now in Sweden the car seemed to get better between those tests, maybe some is because different set up, but still it felt much better".
He has said that the car feels easy to drive, but its still lacking pace compared to top teams. They have found good set ups for both monte and Sweden, but as now there's no snow at the roads in Sweden, unlike in their test, who knows what will happen there. Regular points are their goal for next season.
Tomi Tuominen who was also Co-driving at Wales, said we shouldn't look so much at those times, since they were only gathering miles and cruising there and the real racing starts now.
But as whole, they feel positive and motivated with their new team and you can see how they have fun testing and improving the car.

... and somehow I suddenly have a feeling that I've heard this before. Oh, but that time it was a team called Skoda. :D

[jonkka]

... and somehow I suddenly have a feeling that I've heard this before. Oh, but that time it was a team called Skoda. :D

And before that, Seat...

[Daniel]

And before that, Seat...
It's for real this time. Just like the next time Elizabeth Taylor gets married :laugh:

[Tomi]

Dont be so negative guys, there is something positive also, no Auriol to screw up the cars anymore.

[J.Lindstroem]

Toni Gardemeister is probably infected by Auriol-basciles after beeing with him in both Seat and Skoda.

[A.F.F.]

Dont be so negative guys, there is something positive also, no Auriol to screw up the cars anymore.

I wouldn't want to be negative but when I heard the car was planned long ago before the actual planner came on board, the last spark of hope fadeaway. :mark:

[A.F.F.]

It's for real this time. Just like the next time Elizabeth Taylor gets married :laugh:

Or Britney come in court.

[Tomi]

Garde was today in tv, he said the car has been tested for 6 months now and that its easy to drive, but that there is still a long way to go, his expections sounded very realistic.

[Fischer]

How many years has Gardemeister signed with Suzuki?

[jonkka]

Two, I think.

[Sulland]

I must say I am very impressed by Suzuki in its real debut, this can become very good by half season.

And it shows that they picked the right guy in PG, he has impressed me even more than the car itself, with limited experience with 4wd !!!!

[Buzz Lightyear]

i thinks pg's performance raises more questions about toni's pace. toni's a 'nice guy', but something nice guys are not that quick. i said this before and near got castrated by the fins, but really, he got more chances than enough.

to be fair monte carlo isnt that sore on cars (unless you put it over a cliff).. after the snow rallys i believe the suzuki may fall apart.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Two, I think.

two years or two events!?

did I not read that pg only have 2 events for definate, monte and sweden?

[DonJippo]

two years or two events!?

did I not read that pg only have 2 events for definate, monte and sweden?

Garde for two years, PG for two events.

[Woodeye]

i thinks pg's performance raises more questions about toni's pace. toni's a 'nice guy', but something nice guys are not that quick.

Toni's car has been broke almost the whole rally, I wouldn't draw too many conclutions about his pace yet. But if P-G keeps kicking his arse through the whole season then Toni might be in troubles.

[urabus-denoS2000]

PG for two events???
thats what he gets for being with suzuki for 4 years???
but he is proving good

[Sulland]

Watcing the SSS it looked like the Suzuki was set up much softer than the rest of the cars. For the next Tarmac event I think they need to set it up a bit stiffer, to avoid most of the roll in the car.

But I guess they are still learning a lot !

[Josti]

Watcing the SSS it looked like the Suzuki was set up much softer than the rest of the cars. For the next Tarmac event I think they need to set it up a bit stiffer, to avoid most of the roll in the car.

But I guess they are still learning a lot !

True, PG was like 8 seconds slower then the fastest car. Maybe just for show, since he was solid in 8th position.

[Mirek]

I think that P-G just made a show on super special, nothing more. He was handling the car such way in purpose in my opinion ;)

[A.F.F.]

]I think that P-G just made a show on super special, nothing more. He was handling the car such way in purpose in my opinion ;)

I agree and once he almost rautenbached the SX4.

[Koppomsbo]

rautenbached


Thats a new way to say crash out :D

[AndyRAC]

I agree and once he almost rautenbached the SX4.

HA, HA!! Good one, the new name for an idiotic crash....

[Daniel]

I agree and once he almost rautenbached the SX4.
:rotflmao: Excellent.

[Mirek]

I agree and once he almost rautenbached the SX4.

Olala :D

[Sulland]

]I think that P-G just made a show on super special, nothing more. He was handling the car such way in purpose in my opinion ;)

Yes, but so did Loeb, and the red thing did not have the same roll, but was sliding flat as a racecar !

Very nice to watch I might add !!!

[Helstar]

The first day they were so disappointing. So slow, it appeared as the engine got like... 50hp less than the C4 (maybe more).

I was in this left corner followed by little straight and a right hairpin. Toni arrived and after the left corner he accelerated and tried to raise the gears ... but the car 'stalled' for more than a second (have the video too).
After him PG Andersson came, he was even slower (later I discovered he was driving a 2WD car !), SAME problem. Stalling in the gear change. I was like omg it's even worse than it appeared in Corsica and Wales !

Second day much better. Was surprised by the speed of Andersson and his car actually, compared to the day before.
They can and will improve. The success on the S1600 serie was not a case.
I am not that sure they're going to be next Skoda/SEAT/Mitsu anymore. I want to believe :)

[grugsticles]

Helstar: thats it eactly - Believe!
Suzuki, perhaps with some more money, will be a great force in the WRC IMO.

[Sulland]

I think the pair of SX4's will be the surprise of Sweden, where a few hp down does not matter as much as on tarmac/asfalt !

[A.F.F.]

Few hps more wouldn't hurt thought....

[Sulland]

That will come with the 08 mid life update !! ;)

It takes some time to reach the same level as factories that has been in this game for a long time !!

[Glee]

What we can expect from the SX4 WRC?

Blood, sweat and tears...

[A.F.F.]

... and when it comes to Toni, ärräpäitä :D

[DonJippo]

... and when it comes to Toni, ärräpäitä :D

"Vitun paska" a'la Monte ;)

[J.Lindstroem]

The first day they were so disappointing. So slow, it appeared as the engine got like... 50hp less than the C4 (maybe more).

I was in this left corner followed by little straight and a right hairpin. Toni arrived and after the left corner he accelerated and tried to raise the gears ... but the car 'stalled' for more than a second (have the video too).
After him PG Andersson came, he was even slower (later I discovered he was driving a 2WD car !), SAME problem. Stalling in the gear change. I was like omg it's even worse than it appeared in Corsica and Wales !

Second day much better. Was surprised by the speed of Andersson and his car actually, compared to the day before.
They can and will improve. The success on the S1600 serie was not a case.
I am not that sure they're going to be next Skoda/SEAT/Mitsu anymore. I want to believe :)

Whoah, it really hurts me to see Mitsu in the same box as Skoda and Seat. Don't know why, but dude that can't be right!

[cut the b.s.]

Whoah, it really hurts me to see Mitsu in the same box as Skoda and Seat. Don't know why, but dude that can't be right!

you are right, its wrong to put Mitsu down in that bracket, maybe some people on here are only relatively new to the sport and dont know much of its history

[Helstar]

you are right, its wrong to put Mitsu down in that bracket, maybe some people on here are only relatively new to the sport and dont know much of its history
Oh then let me know what kind of success have Mitsu accomplished with 04 and 05 Lancer WRC before retiring (I'm not even talking of early years :p ) ?
And don't say 'blame the drivers'. They did the best they could with that slow and unreliable car IMHO.
The truth is that in 2005 (last official Mitsu year) we had Citroen-Ford-Peugeot-Subaru and THEN Mitsubishi and THEN Skoda (the slowest car :\ !).

[Mirek]

The last succesful car was 2001 Evo 6.5 and that is actualy 6.5 years back...

[cut the b.s.]

Oh then let me know what kind of success have Mitsu accomplished with 04 and 05 Lancer WRC before retiring (I'm not even talking of early years :p ) ?
And don't say 'blame the drivers'. They did the best they could with that slow and unreliable car IMHO.
The truth is that in 2005 (last official Mitsu year) we had Citroen-Ford-Peugeot-Subaru and THEN Mitsubishi and THEN Skoda (the slowest car :\ !).

As you know these cars had no success but Seat, Hyundia and Skoda came and tried their luck and left without any success at all, Mitsubishi left on a low note but that doesnt mean that you can dismiss what they did in earlier years

[Helstar]

I wanted to refer to Mitsubishi's last 'cycle'. Their last bid (the Lancer WRC for 2 years) was a disaster pretty much like whole Skoda experience and, before, SEAT. And even in the years before they were quite far from the late 90s form.
Ok I forgot to add Hyundai who deserved to be more in the list than Mitsu I admit it :p probably I'm still disappointed by their early retirement...

[Abarth]

Give Monster and his team a chance. It will take some time to establish a completely new team/car on the top of the WRC .

It is not the same with Mitsu since they have been there, and have experience - even if most of that team is gone, they still have the Raid department that has been working all along.

That it is so hard to come in as a newcomer and get results, is also a good reason to simplify the WRCar, in the rules and regulations, so new teams and private teams has a chance !!

[A.F.F.]

As you know these cars had no success but Seat, Hyundia and Skoda came and tried their luck and left without any success at all, Mitsubishi left on a low note but that doesnt mean that you can dismiss what they did in earlier years

IMO Mitsubishi had a keys to success in their hands but decided not to use them. After getting rid of active diffs, they might have had upper hand, in terms of experience at least. Shame they chose raids instead.

[alleskids]

Suzuki is planning a bussy year. From Rally New Zealand on they will run the SX4 WRC along side the new SX4 S2000, which homologation is planned on the 1st July. Plus they will enter a couple of IRC rounds.

[jso1985]

hope they don't end bitting more than they can chew...

[Spud]

Im happy Suzuki is in the WRC this year BUT I wouldnt expect wonderful things from them just yet.As we all know it takes time(and money) to develop a proper championship contender.I do however expect them to be consistent finishers perhaps.For this year at least....

[gravelman]

Who will drive the S2000? I remember Kris Meeke was doing some testing for them a while ago. Maybe he would be a good bet to get the drive in some capacity?..

[tmx]

Give Monster and his team a chance. It will take some time to establish a completely new team/car on the top of the WRC .

It is not the same with Mitsu since they have been there, and have experience - even if most of that team is gone, they still have the Raid department that has been working all along.

That it is so hard to come in as a newcomer and get results, is also a good reason to simplify the WRCar, in the rules and regulations, so new teams and private teams has a chance !!

Excellent point. The regulation have to be in a way that make it possible for the new teams to have some chances, not only a few teams dominating the sport. Citroen coming in, spending more money than everyone else, dominating everything and when they leave in the end of 2009 I wonder if the WRC is just going to be more hollow than ever before. But maybe the FIA can turn it around and there will more manufacturers coming in and there will be a leveled playing field. I think Suzuki makes a very brave move, surprised by it even, if I was a manufacturer right now I wouldn't be in my right mind to enter the WRC in it's current state for promotional purpose.

We need to be open minded and welcome any manufacturer. It would be hilarious if Suzuki leave due to disapointment and there's just Subaru running crappy against Ford. I could barely keep awake watching the WRC coverage in it's current state.

In the case of Skoda I think it could have gotten better results with a better team, I don't rate the car that bad.

[AndyRAC]

Excellent point. The regulation have to be in a way that make it possible for the new teams to have some chances, not only a few teams dominating the sport. Citroen coming in, spending more money than everyone else, dominating everything and when they leave in the end of 2009 I wonder if the WRC is just going to be more hollow than ever before. But maybe the FIA can turn it around and there will more manufacturers coming in and there will be a leveled playing field. I think Suzuki makes a very brave move, surprised by it even, if I was a manufacturer right now I wouldn't be in my right mind to enter the WRC in it's current state for promotional purpose.

We need to be open minded and welcome any manufacturer. It would be hilarious if Suzuki leave due to disapointment and there's just Subaru running crappy against Ford. I could barely keep awake watching the WRC coverage in it's current state.

In the case of Skoda I think it could have gotten better results with a better team, I don't rate the car that bad.

I'd agree, if I was the boss of a Manufacturer I would have second thoughts about committing my company to the WRC. Even as a fan, it doesn't stack up - look at the costs of developing a new car, the chances of it being competitive, and the returns in terms of promotion.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Just watching mexico and see the suzuki's performing not so well... They're a working team so hope all goes well later in the year!

[jonas_mcrae]

yeah not that good, sadly as I predicted none of the cars finished the event, and I dont think things will change much in argentina. Maybe when they come back to Europe things will change...

[jonkka]

Team changes team manager - a good or bad sign?

[A.F.F.]

Team changes team manager - a good or bad sign?

:rolleyes:

[WRCfan]

Luckily the Suzuki WRC project is a big dream for Tajima, so I don't think they will pull out like some of the other teams have so quickly. Japan has poured millions into their F1 endeavours and the cars are still nothing fantastic so the Japanese mentality towards WRC and funding will be similar.

The car has shown promising speed in sporadic stints so this is heartening for the team. Monster doesn't expect magic to come in the first year which is a good way to think. The speed is there to a degree now they need to work on the reliability. Argentina will be interesting to see if they can improve on the troubles that have plagued the team thus far.

If they can get a finish then the team would see that as a major victory within itself despite the position....

Roll on Argentina!

[N]

One thing I don't understand is that every new team tests a car before starting the season, yet when they start to compete in proper rallies, all of a sudden they get strange problems after 50km, eg, engine goes, brakes stop working etc, how come this isn't picked up in testing, it's as if they don't do any testing?

[Xsara Fan]

Interesting facts:

1. From 15 starts (6 rally with 2 or 3 pilots) in 1999 Peugeot 206 WRC has only 7 finishes. And the first points was scored at 3 start.

2. From 8 starts (5 rally with 1 or 2 pilots) in 2007 & 2008 Suzuki SX4 WRC has only 4 finishes. And the first points was scored at 3 start.

3. 206 WRC & SX4 WRC was made by the same man - Michel Nandan.

[Viking]

Paul Wilding is new team manager.

http://78.47.82.57/press-releases/uddeholm-swedish-rally-08/news/article/change-within-management-of-the-suzuki-world-rally-team-1/?tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=1&cHash=8ec003ee9c

[COD]

Team changes team manager - a good or bad sign?

Third team manager since they started last fall. I don't think it is a very good sign. Bearing in mind, also chef designer and some engineers have left...

[ARF]

Too many things going in wrong direction: not putting enough effort in developing the wrc as they're building the s2000 at the same time, changing designers and engineers too often, which is bad for quality and moral, one of the drivers is really useless development and testing-wise, the other at least has some winning history with the team.
They seemed to be testing quite a lot duing ast years, but now it seems that it might have been just a show-off for the media and japanese funders.

[A.F.F.]

Luckily the Suzuki WRC project is a big dream for Tajima, so I don't think they will pull out like some of the other teams have so quickly. Japan has poured millions into their F1 endeavours and the cars are still nothing fantastic so the Japanese mentality towards WRC and funding will be similar.

!


Japanese mentality eh?

Japanese mentality like with Nissan?? Or like with Mitsu WRC ??

[koko0703]

Interesting facts:

1. From 15 starts (6 rally with 2 or 3 pilots) in 1999 Peugeot 206 WRC has only 7 finishes. And the first points was scored at 3 start.

2. From 8 starts (5 rally with 1 or 2 pilots) in 2007 & 2008 Suzuki SX4 WRC has only 4 finishes. And the first points was scored at 3 start.

3. 206 WRC & SX4 WRC was made by the same man - Michel Nandan.

Interesting.... now all Suzuki needs is a driver called Macus Gronholm :D

I think Suzuki is serious about WRC program but it won't be an easy ride to top. They don't have as big bank account as Peugeot did, and their gap to Citroen/Ford is much bigger than Peugeot to Ford/Subaru/Mitsu in 1999.

[BDunnell]

Japanese mentality eh?

Japanese mentality like with Nissan?? Or like with Mitsu WRC ??

I think there is some truth in the criticism of the way some Japanese car manufacturers have gone about motorsport. The Nissan Sunny GTiR programme is the classic example of bosses not understanding the sport with which they're getting involved. Japanese manufacturers have normally done best in motorsport when they've handed everything over to people who aren't Japanese. It's a strange thing, and I don't know enough about the reasons why to remark further on this, but it seems to be true.

As for Suzuki, I find their problems surprising because while we shouldn't expect a new car to work straight out of the box (and we certainly shouldn't say that it's rubbish after a few failures), you'd think that the manufacturer has been involved in rallying for long enough to know the ropes.

[jonkka]

I think Suzuki is serious about WRC program but it won't be an easy ride to top. They don't have as big bank account as Peugeot did, and their gap to Citroen/Ford is much bigger than Peugeot to Ford/Subaru/Mitsu in 1999.

Neither have they found the edge that Peugeot (going to extremes with electronics) or Citroen (superbly engineered base car) found at their time.

[Tomi]

Interesting facts:

3. 206 WRC & SX4 WRC was made by the same man - Michel Nandan.

Really? wasnt the reason that he took off, too little infuence, because he was brought too late in the project.

[Daniel]

Really? wasnt the reason that he took off, too little infuence, because he was brought too late in the project.
They should get Jean-Claude Vaucard. The guy is GOD when it comes to designing a rally car

[AndyRAC]

Sorry, to admit this, but while reading the F1 Magazine season preview, Toyota have a management/process system called Kaizen, it is used by many Japanese organisations (Lean is also used - particularly in manufacturing).To be honest, they aren't a very good salesman for it, I would assume Suzuki are also using this system. They should do as has been suggested and let somebody else take over.

[A.F.F.]

I think there is some truth in the criticism of the way some Japanese car manufacturers have gone about motorsport. The Nissan Sunny GTiR programme is the classic example of bosses not understanding the sport with which they're getting involved. Japanese manufacturers have normally done best in motorsport when they've handed everything over to people who aren't Japanese. It's a strange thing, and I don't know enough about the reasons why to remark further on this, but it seems to be true.


One time could be forgiven but they did the same again with their F2 project. Gardemeister had a deal to drive factory Nissan Almera
but didn't get to drive one rally beffore they pulled off... again :s

[A.F.F.]

On the F1-forum ( that's right, I visited there :eek: ) I asked has anyone ever calculated how much has Toyota spent for each championship point ?? I have to check if there's an answer...EDIT: No answer yet.

[WRCfan]

Japanese mentality eh?

Japanese mentality like with Nissan?? Or like with Mitsu WRC ??


I meant the Japanese mentality towards business and their lifestyle. Not motorsport directly. From living in Japan i know these things and these things will of course be implemented into their campaign with Suzuki I am sure.

- In Japan loosing face is a very shameful thing, thus entering the WRC and pulling out early would in their eyes be shameful. Look at their F1, a few years now with pretty 'nothing' results yet they continue to pour money into the project.

- "Good things take time" - this is something that applies to Japan. I know New Zealanders especially (probably other western nationalities too) are quick to want things done, organised, problems fixed. The Japanese take everything in their stride and are not so 'rip sh!t and bust' like many New Zealanders are...

- Mitsubishi was sucessful, although was a western based team and had a lot less 'Japanese input' than Suzuki. Suzuki is very much Japanese organised thus they see this project as their 'baby' and are willing to spend a lot of time and money on trying to make it work. Also let's face it, that Mitsubishi WRC car which Makinen had was a real dog. Suzuki has shown some promise of real speed despite the glitches they have had.

This is my views as someone living amongst the culture and seeing everyday how the Japnese people operate and live by. It is a culture and mindset that is not well understood by the western world and my view of Japanese thinking, cultural traits has changed VERY much since I have lived here seeing it first hand, as to when I was on the outside....

[A.F.F.]

- In Japan loosing face is a very shameful thing, thus entering the WRC and pulling out early would in their eyes be shameful. Look at their F1, a few years now with pretty 'nothing' results yet they continue to pour money into the project.

- "Good things take time" - this is something that applies to Japan. I know New Zealanders especially (probably other western nationalities too) are quick to want things done, organised, problems fixed. The Japanese take everything in their stride and are not so 'rip sh!t and bust' like many New Zealanders are...



And these apply with Nissan rallying project ? :confused:

Sorry, I just had to ask again.

[WRCfan]

That was before.

I am talking about now, WRC was a niche sport back in the day with the exception of Group B. Look at how well WRC is known about by general public now compared to the earlier times...

Japanese tended to keep their motorsport gigs within Japan for many years concentrating on circuit and such forms of racing. Although now the marketing opportunities that they milk from having a WRC/F1 campaign is big money and publicity here.

I'm not overly familiar with the Nissan venture although is this the works team Makinen drove for early in his career?

[GigiGalliNo1]

lmfao

[Xsara Fan]

Really? wasnt the reason that he took off, too little infuence, because he was brought too late in the project.

From this interview: http://www.suzuki-wrc.com/interview/nandan/e/index.html

"Michel Nandan has been in two WRC teams before joining Suzuki. He began his WRC career at Toyota Team Europe (TTE) when the company carried out the rally program the Celica GT-FOURs (ST185 and ST205), which won 17 WRC events under their belts. The technical guru from Monaco led the concept development for the Corolla WRC. Then, he moved to Peugeot to be responsible for the 206 WRC and 307 WRC programs."

OMG, Toyota Corolla WRC`s first points was scored at 3 start!!!!!

[Daniel]

From this interview: http://www.suzuki-wrc.com/interview/nandan/e/index.html

"Michel Nandan has been in two WRC teams before joining Suzuki. He began his WRC career at Toyota Team Europe (TTE) when the company carried out the rally program the Celica GT-FOURs (ST185 and ST205), which won 17 WRC events under their belts. The technical guru from Monaco led the concept development for the Corolla WRC. Then, he moved to Peugeot to be responsible for the 206 WRC and 307 WRC programs."

OMG, Toyota Corolla WRC`s first points was scored at 3 start!!!!!
I can just see Toni throwing his helmet through the back window of the SX4 now :)

[Brother John]

And these apply with Nissan rallying project ? :confused:

Sorry, I just had to ask again.

Make WRC cheaper and they com back! ;)

I think they are ready already. :p :

New Mazda rally car today!
http://rally.com.au/data/melbourne%20mshow%2008/mshow-mazda2-fs-04.jpg

[N.O.T]

thats a mazda.....is nissan and mazda under the same management?

[Brother John]

thats a mazda.....is nissan and mazda under the same management?

They are all almost the same...... :p : :rotflmao:

[jonkka]

One time could be forgiven but they did the same again with their F2 project. Gardemeister had a deal to drive factory Nissan Almera
but didn't get to drive one rally beffore they pulled off... again :s

Nissan gave many years to Salonen in 1980's, among others.

[WRCfan]

lmfao


Careful Mr Galli you wouldn't remember the days when SEAT was in the WRC ;)

[BDunnell]

Sorry, to admit this, but while reading the F1 Magazine season preview, Toyota have a management/process system called Kaizen, it is used by many Japanese organisations (Lean is also used - particularly in manufacturing).To be honest, they aren't a very good salesman for it, I would assume Suzuki are also using this system. They should do as has been suggested and let somebody else take over.

I'm not sure whether they apply 'lean', a radio programme about which I was listening to only the other day, in F1.

[BDunnell]

That was before.

I am talking about now, WRC was a niche sport back in the day with the exception of Group B. Look at how well WRC is known about by general public now compared to the earlier times...

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that, because Group B and the WRC itself were inextricably linked, the Nissan projects being referred to were after Group B, and the WRC isn't well known by the general public now.



I'm not overly familiar with the Nissan venture although is this the works team Makinen drove for early in his career?

Yes, and it was a classic example of a Japanese manufacturer not understanding motorsport. Dave Whittock, who was the team boss, remembers the Nissan management supervising the Sunny GTiR project not understanding why it would probably not be possible for the car to win its first WRC event. He also got the feeling very early on that the Japanese were interested in winning the Safari and nothing else. Coupled with all of this, the car had a fundamental design fault relating to engine cooling.

[Roy]

thats a mazda.....is nissan and mazda under the same management?

Ford is 33% owner of Mazda. Nissan has a sort of cooperation with Renault.

[GigiGalliNo1]

Careful Mr Galli you wouldn't remember the days when SEAT was in the WRC ;)

Actually I do, with Auriol and Garde. :)

[GigiGalliNo1]

Ford is 33% owner of Mazda. Nissan has a sort of cooperation with Renault.

Yup, Ford, Mazda and Volvo are owned by Ford.

The Focus, V40 and Mazda 3 are based on the same platform!

Also that Mazda Rally car is another Australian built car.

A few years ago it was the 121 rally car :p

[A.F.F.]

Nissan gave many years to Salonen in 1980's, among others.

Yes they did but after that it has been a total farce.

[Tom206wrc]

Many of you put one or both Suzuki drivers in points in your Argentina pickems...what an extraordinary optimism you have :s

[BDunnell]

Yes they did but after that it has been a total farce.

The F2 Sunny programme was pretty successful, but by then the management was allowing people who knew what to do a bit more of a free hand.

[Daniel]

Coupled with all of this, the car had a fundamental design fault relating to engine cooling.

Yes the interwarmer wasn't the best idea now was it :)

[BDunnell]

Yes the interwarmer wasn't the best idea now was it :)

Ah, that was it. Couldn't remember what it was called.

[Karukera]

Credit to Reinhard Klein's litterature and to the dozens of hectoliters of water unsuccessfully poured in the Sunny.
The big Mäk somewhere got his starting heat from it. :s tare:

[jonkka]

Yes the interwarmer wasn't the best idea now was it :)

In fact Ford Focus WRC03-07 has it's radiator located somewhat similarly. The difference is that with rearward canted engine, radiator is not exactly top of the block plus there are two huge electric fans that suck the air through.

[Daniel]

In fact Ford Focus WRC03-07 has it's radiator located somewhat similarly. The difference is that with rearward canted engine, radiator is not exactly top of the block plus there are two huge electric fans that suck the air through.
Yes but the Sunny didn't have fans there :p It needed it's light pod on to give more airflow over the intercooler.

[wrc_flipper]

Anyone know where the factory will be when they move to the UK?

[c4]

Anyone know where the factory will be when they move to the UK?

According to Autosport UK will move to UK in June to it's old Milton Keynes factory and should be up and running from there by the middle of summer.

[Viking]

New "Suzuki rule" from FIA!

"With immediate effect, the restriction on parts will be eased for new manufacturers in their first year of entering the Championship. A new manufacturer may ask the FIA for a waiver to use two additional engines without penalty, and a change of parts, as described in the Sporting Regulations."

http://www.fia.com/mediacentre/Press_Releases/FIA_Sport/2008/March/260308-01.html

[grugsticles]

Well, that can only be a good thing.
If the FIA wernt to allow Suzuki a helping hand their development (particulary in the engine arena) would be severly hampered as they would have to deliberatly run their engines at a more conservative level in order to preserve them.

It also is appealing to other manufacurers looking to enter the WRC with a Super2000 Turbo car in knowing they will be given certain lee-way in order to bring them up to a competive level as soon as possible.

Good on the FIA I say!

[c4]

Anyone know where the factory will be when they move to the UK?

Looks like Monster is staying in Paris according to MSN. The building work on Paris factory nearly complete, so Tamija feels is best to stay put. Was only going to move to Milton Keynes if construction work in Paris not finished.

[A.F.F.]

I don't know if I should cry or laugh at Suzuki. :down:

[Sulland]

How important was the fine Japan result for the future of Suzuki in WRC ?

Anyone that knows what their 09 plans are, and if they still are working on a S2000 Project ?