The future of rallying.......?

[blackmar]

What would be the rallysport in 2008 and further?
Bad news with the OMV withdrawn, and I'm sure they are not the only one.It's bad that all the cars went too much expensive again with the new S2000 class. More development = more money. Too much different classes / cars. S2000, gr.N, S1600, R3, WRC..... Why there was the release of the R3 cars when there is no such class yet? Does anybody knows when FIA will make the R classes official? I heard that in 2009 - maybe! The S2000 cars are pretty much expensive in comparison to gr.N. There are too many gr.N cars on the market that soon will cost nothing and to be competitive you must buy a S2000 car. In one moment the gr.N was a good option but again there are changes. And I see the battle between the french/italian companies agaist the japanese (with the support of FIA). Now with the S2000 they want to stop Subaru and Mitsubishi and get their clients. With the S2000 FIA completely gave a green light to FIAT/Peugeot in the battle for the european teams and the new IRC challange.

[Buzz Lightyear]

Expenses always need to be contained somewhat.

But dont forget we are dealing with global manufactuers, Subaru, Ford, Citroen, Suzuki... these guys each spend $100's and $100's of millions of dollars every year developing road cars. Their budget, for example, €40m to do WRC, without any sponsor input, is, or should be peanuts to any of these teams. Remember, it is marketing budget, which would otherwise be spent on Google click thru ads, or your national tabloid.

The current situation has improved marginaly, but the problem is feeding young talent from various nationality is soo expensive to do it indepenantly. Thus not generating diverse interest across a broader market.

WRC can well afford to runs 3 cars, all 3 of which are points scoring, and it would maybe only be an extra ~ 10% on a teams budget. It would expand the works seats by 50% overnight, and make a proper drivers market, and ditch this M2 setup.

M2 sponsors budget would be far better spent subsidising the additional cost of running a 3rd car with the bigger teams, rather than trying to run a private customer team.

Also give young drivers an extra passage over stages, for the first two years, to give them some sort of help towards closing the gap to the top 3 or 4 drivers.

[MikeD]

M2 sponsors budget would be far better spent subsidising the additional cost of running a 3rd car with the bigger teams, rather than trying to run a private customer team.


From a commercial perspective, I think the M2 teams are the better option. Everytime you see the Manufacturer Championship standings you will see names like OMW, Stobart, VK and Munchis being a part of the team name. You wouldn't see these names if it was "just" the third car in a M1 team.

I really like the whole M2 idea. I think it's great that you can chose only 10 rallies and then compete against other M2 entries.

[SubaruNorway]

I tried to watch the broadcast from IRC in san remo but found it very boring to watch to be honest

[luca]

eurosport coverage from IRC includes too much bla bla bla and sightseeing in service park - there is not enough action
also before the rally, they were talking about "clearer vision" and ‘SuperLoupe’ camera, but unfortunatelly i found only one shot with this technique :(

[BDunnell]

The current situation has improved marginaly, but the problem is feeding young talent from various nationality is soo expensive to do it indepenantly. Thus not generating diverse interest across a broader market.

I think this is key to the whole thing. National championships are no longer a decent breeding ground to an up-and-coming driver. All the top British drivers of the last 30 years, up to Colin McRae and Burns, learned their trade in a strong British championship, in which it was possible to compete in a non-works car against some of the best drivers in the world. Is it only a coincidence that no-one has really come through the ranks since then? I know there was a brief British championship renaissance with the F2 cars, but this doesn't really count as those drivers were also able to be competitive on appearances in the F2 world championship. Only Mark Higgins and Alister McRae came through the ranks from that period.

[Josti]

Pretty much the problem here too. Though, it's mainly the rallies itself who are the problem. Straight lines and 90 degrees corners don't really make up the challenge (not that there aren't tricky stages). That's why foreign rallies are important for development and experience to get to a higher level, which you can understand isn't always afordable.

Besides small private entries, there never was much coming out of our country. Luckily, serious effort came this year, with our national motorsport federation sponsoring a Group N team for several WRC events (KNAF Talent First), with two young talented drivers (take for instance Jasper van de Heuvel who won Group N in Germany). I'm glad this happens, but there wasn't much perspective until a few years ago.

[AndyRAC]

Pretty much the problem here too. Though, it's mainly the rallies itself who are the problem. Straight lines and 90 degrees corners don't really make up the challenge (not that there aren't tricky stages). That's why foreign rallies are important for development and experience to get to a higher level, which you can understand isn't always afordable.

Besides small private entries, there never was much coming out of our country. Luckily, serious effort came this year, with our national motorsport federation sponsoring a Group N team for several WRC events (KNAF Talent First), with two young talented drivers (take for instance Jasper van de Heuvel who won Group N in Germany). I'm glad this happens, but there wasn't much perspective until a few years ago.

So the Dutch Federation support their drivers, as well as Belgium, France and Spain. What do the MSA do?? Mmm, interesting; on another Forum there were arguments to whether it was the job of the MSA to support young drivers, personally in my view it is?
As for S2000, at the moment it's just Fiat, VW and Peugeot, where are the rest of the manufacturers?

[Fischer]

I honestly cannot believe that something so spectacular as the WRC can cease to exist. Surely there must be some solution to keep WRC alive?

[cut the b.s.]

I honestly cannot believe that something so spectacular as the WRC can cease to exist. Surely there must be some solution to keep WRC alive?


Ban manufacturer involvement would be a start

[Buzz Lightyear]

Ban manufacturer involvement would be a start

FIA are doing their best! changing the rules on suzuki, and forcing citroen out with pirelli control tyre..

[AndyRAC]

Start again from the beginning, or allow 'Prototypes', or 'Specials' like Andy Burton's, ; i;e the cars don't have to be based on Production cars. Or allow Sportscars, or I could go on and on...


TBH, I haven't a clue.....

[Lalo]

There should be set backs in order to cut costs. For example, the most expensive component in a WRCar is it's gearbox. There should be cheaper gearboxes, like bringing back central-stick secuential ones (rather than the gearbox pad we now nowadays). Of course, it's not what I want (and I'm sure none of us), but I believe the FIA has had some thoughts like this. Same with the engine (like this year, where an engine is used for two events) and so..

Maybe this matter of using a component in two events can be used for the gearbox too, right?

[RallyCat909]

What got me into rallying aside from the exploitive car control was the wild body shapes. With WRCars its like watching a bunch of superfast saloon-based grocery getters sail through the stages by comparsion to the 70s and 80s.

[shurik]

Start again from the beginning, or allow 'Prototypes', or 'Specials' like Andy Burton's, ; i;e the cars don't have to be based on Production cars. Or allow Sportscars, or I could go on and on...


TBH, I haven't a clue.....
That would be fantastic :) too bad FIA does not know what's the rallying is all about, so it's far more probable that we would see Subaru Impreza running on 12 alcaline AA batteries, than monsterous rally prototype, wich can cause men to tremble and young women to orgasm :D

[cosmicpanda]

Rallying's in trouble?

Seems to me like it's bouncing back from trouble. Citroen came back this year and Suzuki's entering. There's a strong privateer/M2 field, as well, so the withdrawal of just one sponsor isn't a huge thing to the whole sport, I don't think. Also, Marcus vs Loeb this year's pretty damn good.

What does concern me is the reduction of events to 12 that we're going to have, I think that this means a reduction in the level of exposure that the WRC will get, therefore making it less interesting to sponsors and will surely mean the loss of established events from the calendar.

It will make it easier for privateers to get better championship results, I suppose, though. Will the number of events M2 teams have to do remain at 10, or will that reduce as well?

[Brother John]

Altavist translation from
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/r/wm/d/n/d/2007/10/10/citroen-bleibt-bis-2009-1/index.html
Citroen remains to 2009 Citroen also in the coming two years in the Rallye world championship will participate. This got enterprise boss straight Gilles Michel now.
"we are a dynamic enterprise and our operational readiness level in the WRC fit perfectly our image", got Michel straight in relation to autoprint. "we will be 2008 and also 2009 thereby, with the goal, both the manufacturer -, as well as driver title of winning." Like it after 2009 does not only continue depends on the sporty surrounding field in the championship, thus Michel, which is disappointed by the current TV marketing particularly. "we will look at ourselves which the other participants to make, because we want a weighty role in a hard umkaemften championship to play", so Michel. "however the TV transmissions are further bad and with the time this a problem will become." Some days ago WRC Rechteinhaber ISC had been taken over of the British TV Produktionsfirma North One. All involved ones expect now fresh wind, above all if it concerns the transmission times of the Rallye world championship. Also FIA-boss max of Mosley expects by the sales a step forward: "that is very good for the series to plan the future of the WRC particularly in a time, in which we all work on it."

[Brother John]

However, I see the future for wrc dark.
Nobody wants to see this but according to me and for years it goes in the wrong direction.

1. The cars.
For years I did say that the modern cars are not strong enough and they are too fast such as the old group 4. They are not real spectacular thanks to the high Tech like in F1. Every mistake of the driver are punished with an end of the rally or they drive a day later under super rally rules.
I continue say, the modern high Tech cars do not belong at home in rally.

2. The Drivers
I still have respect for rally drivers but they have a hobby job compared to what rally was and would have be. These days they do their hobby (considers job?)from 8 up to 5 with a hot lunch around noon!
If them must drive a new rally there is panic and it goes there wrong for the most of them! Why no service after each SSand go on for the victory?
And most of them have to pay a lot for this hobby. Only a couple factory drivers makes a chance to win a rally and they are never home just to promote the brand of the factory car.


3. The rallys
This goes entirely wrong! Some stages used more times a day and then a couple of Superspecials for to receive more money and for the TV! What a joke. I keep on to say, make it cheaper and go back to the roots of rally.

I know that many do not want to hear my thoughts, but that is my opinion concerning the future of rally. :erm:

[Roy]

...Superspecials for to receive more money and for the TV! ...[/QUOTE]

This is the future. some Super Specials and other stages who are easily to follow is good TV coverage. Thats important for brands like Ford, Citroen, and others.

[Brother John]

...Superspecials for to receive more money and for the TV! ...

This is the future. some Super Specials and other stages who are easily to follow is good TV coverage. Thats important for brands like Ford, Citroen, and others.[/quote]

And what has that to do with rally?....Think once, I see still gladly rally cars on normal roads but never go to rallycross....just wait thill there once more happened something seriously in the contemporary rallysport. Ho will have the blame? Who will calls here then loudest? and one day it will happen, if you like it or not!

[Josti]

3. The rallys
This goes entirely wrong! Some stages used more times a day and then a couple of Superspecials for to receive more money and for the TV! What a joke. I keep on to say, make it cheaper and go back to the roots of rally.


I don't really mind the super special stages and I quite enjoy following them live. But in no way should they replace regular stages, like they did at Monte Carlo this year.

As FocusChampion said, they're pretty much mandatory these days.

[Brother John]

The result of race road in rally with modern cars, :dozey: with an old MK2 there would be no problem in this situation. :s mokin:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=M6bwb_sZoRA

[OldF]

WORLD MOTOR SPORT COUNCIL
29.06.2005

“From 2012, it was agreed in principle that world rally cars will be four-wheel drive and turbo-charged, based on mass-produced Group N and S2000 specification cars. Cost reducing measures will also be introduced.”

This is what we now at the moment. In an interview the FIA World Rally Championship Commissions chairman Morrie Chandler also said “In the future the size of a WRC car will be the size of a Citroën C4 / Ford Focus.”

The WRC cars based on the S2000 regulations will have a turbo but will they have a gearbox with an active central differential also? I think an active central differential is crucial (but also more expensive) for a S2000 based car on a slippery surface because the N4 based car would have one if they use the same gearboxes as they do nowadays.

At least a WRC car based on S2000 or N4 will be cheaper than the WRC cars nowadays. The lifespan cost of a future car depends on the evolution regulations. With the existing regulations a manufacturer can introduce one evolution per year but are allowed to replace a lot of parts. For example over 50% of the Subaru’s 2007 evolutions engine parts where different compared to the former evolution. In the S2000 homologation regulations there are a “joker rule” that allows 10 jokers per Super 2000 Rally homologation extension. A year after the homologation of the car only 5 can be used. This would reduce the cost a lot.

If it’s true what Chandler said about the sizes of the cars, I think we also will have separate S2000 cars and WRC cars based on the S2000 regulations. The minimum length of a S2000 car by the homologation regulations is 3,90 m. For example Citroen doesn’t have a suitable car for this minimum length, the C2 is to short (3,66 m) and the C4 is too big (4,27 m) to get down to the minimum with of 1150 kg (gravel).

Altogether I think the WRC concept has been the best ever. The B group cars were very spectacular but far to powerful compared to their road handling. By the way, this is the eleventh year of WRC. Congratulations to the ten-year-old regulation.

[GruppoB]

If the internet was around in the 70's I have a feeling wed be hearing people very opposed to "special stages" and the nature of speed vs distance. Im sure most of us love the ss and the speed etc...

In my opinion most here are too quick to judge the new calendar will help attract manu's all the fia should do now is cut most of the tech out.

[RallyfanNZ]

There should be cheaper gearboxes, like bringing back central-stick secuential ones (rather than the gearbox pad we now nowadays). Of course, it's not what I want (and I'm sure none of us)

None of us? Does that include the tens of thousands who would rather the WRC go back to H pattern gearboxes and mechanical differentials? WRC has gotten so crap in the last few years. I watched GroupN coverage from Japan and that was miles better to watch then the WRC cars! They were slipping and sliding there way down the roads.

I heard this comment once.

In GroupN you drive the cars on the limit to make them go fast(Excitement).
In WRC you drive to your own limit as they can go faster.

[A.F.F.]

I heard this comment once.

In GroupN you drive the cars on the limit to make them go fast(Excitement).
In WRC you drive to your own limit as they can go faster.


That is well said :up:

But why has WRC gotten crap ? I don't think it's the consept but the rules over it. That's why I welcome the new rallying with open arm. Maybe we have a year or few to start with clean table.

But it's not WRc which is crap. It's the level of competition in it which is :mark:

[LeonBrooke]

I think the FIA need to stop treating the WRC as if it's F1. They need to change the points system to more closely reflect the nature of rallying, like that of various national championships. They also need to change the rules about teams which are too much like F1 these days.

And yeah, change back to all-mechanical transmissions. I think making the cars closer (mechanically) to the road cars, although four-wheel-drive is a necessity.

[Brother John]

I think the FIA need to stop treating the WRC as if it's F1. They need to change the points system to more closely reflect the nature of rallying, like that of various national championships. They also need to change the rules about teams which are too much like F1 these days.

And yeah, change back to all-mechanical transmissions. I think making the cars closer (mechanically) to the road cars, although four-wheel-drive is a necessity.

I agree this, the largest problem will be "who can chance the F.I.A.?" ;)

[AndyRAC]

That is well said :up:

But why has WRC gotten crap ? I don't think it's the consept but the rules over it. That's why I welcome the new rallying with open arm. Maybe we have a year or few to start with clean table.

But it's not WRc which is crap. It's the level of competition in it which is :mark:

Why can't the WRC attract manufacturers like GM, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, e.g the big hitters with clout. Apart from Ford the rest are 'small fry'.

[RallyfanNZ]

The reason why regulations are there is to police "manufacturers" to play by the books.

However regulations have the same effect on rallying as they do on a company. Regulations add costs. Its costs which would prevent some manufacturers from joining the WRC. I'm not an economist, but I know why most people I know love the sport. That is because when they think of rallying they think of the 80's/90's. Not modern day rally cars.

When I think rallying I think of "setting up the car", cars sliding around tarmac hairpins, H pattern boxes etc.

Sometimes you need to step backwards so that you can take two steps forward.

[AndyRAC]

I think the FIA need to stop treating the WRC as if it's F1. They need to change the points system to more closely reflect the nature of rallying, like that of various national championships. They also need to change the rules about teams which are too much like F1 these days.

And yeah, change back to all-mechanical transmissions. I think making the cars closer (mechanically) to the road cars, although four-wheel-drive is a necessity.

Can't see that happening, the F1A like their Championships to be uniform, so I can't see any change in points scoring, unless they change it for F1.
I agree with making the cars simpler, not sure about 4WD anymore, it's proved it's point.

[Josti]

I agree with making the cars simpler, not sure about 4WD anymore, it's proved it's point.

...and replace it with FWD, I hope not. I doubt anyone will make a change to RWD at this point.

[AndyRAC]

...and replace it with FWD, I hope not. I doubt anyone will make a change to RWD at this point.

Tough one to call; the majority of cars sold are FWD, apart from BMW, Mercedes. Personally I'd like to see all 3 variants enabled but with someway (if possible) of making them all competitive. Yes I know it's not going to happen.

[Sulland]

http://www.worldrallyblog.com/2017/05/18/wrc-news/r5-long-term-answer/

Is this still being debated in the industry, teams and in FIA?

[EightGear]

A 10 year old topic, nice.....

[Jarek Z]

http://www.worldrallyblog.com/2017/05/18/wrc-news/r5-long-term-answer/

Is this still being debated in the industry, teams and in FIA?

It's an interesting point of view, but I'm afraid that the author of this article is painting a rosy picture of the situation in R5 class.
Firstly, he says that there are currently 6 manufacturers in this class, but is it true? I only know Citroen, Ford, Hyundai, Skoda and Peugeot. And even out of those 5 manufacurers, only 2 are winning cars - Ford Fiesta and Skoda Fabia. Citroen, Hyundai and Peugeot are far behind when it comes to competition on an international level.
Secondly, the author says that the 2018 season will have 8 different manufacturers - Citroen, Ford, Hyundai, Skoda, Peugeot, Opel, VW, Proton - featured in the R5 class. But is it really so? VW and Proton don't exist and Opel doesn't even want to homologate an existing car.

Having said that I really hope that there is a bright future in front of the R5 class.

[Mirek]

Hyundai isn't uncompetitive. It's just not that widespread. Just wait two weeks and it will likely win a big international event ;)

[SubaruNorway]

No thanks, already bored of driving R5 after half a week with Dirt 4...

[sete]

You probably mean rally Ypres with Neuville behind the wheel,but anything can happened on Ypres

[Watson]

I'm not in favour of R5s being the highest class either. I think they are nice to look at and they are great youth developpers and give an enourmous bang for the buck for lower tier events and championships. But for the biggest rallying circus in the world they don't really give me enough of a buzz. I even found the 1.6 litre turbo, non-active centre diff cars too dull.

The way the cars are now I find perfect. They look like monsters and are spectacular in motion, they sound amazing and you just know that this is as fast as it gets without being stupidly dangerous. They got me properly hooked with the WRC again.

[AnttiL]

[QUOTE=Watson;1142393

The way the cars are now I find perfect. They look like monsters and are spectacular in motion, they sound amazing and you just know that this is as fast as it gets without being stupidly dangerous. They got me properly hooked with the WRC again.[/QUOTE]
+1

But R5 is definitely the best support class ever.

[Mirek]

The current WRC cars are roughly 3-4x more expensive to run than R5. If they make R5 the top category it won't make WRC 3-4x cheaper but the R5 at least 2x more expensive. I prefer to keep them what they are. And when I say to keep I mean to keep like they are now. Not to enlarge restrictor or to add paddle shifting like they may do next year. It would only add cost which is totally unnecessary.

Anyway I think that previous decade has shown quite clearly that trying to make top tier cheap is nonsense. It never worked and it never will.

[Watson]

+1

But R5 is definitely the best support class ever.
Yeah definitely as a support class they are superb. Also, when you go and watch a more local rally there are more things to look at now than just Evos and Imprezas, which is nice.

[er88]

R5 cars are too dull to make the top class in rallying. S2000s were the "lesser" class that still had the thrill to be used as the top class imo, but im sure the FIA killed that category to kill the threat from the IRC.

The R5 class has been great, don't get me wrong, but to think that could be the top class in rallying is laughable. Thankfully the new regulations are a huge step in the right direction, the new wrc cars are great to watch both live and on tv/ videos.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

[Zeakiwi]

Maybe one day hopefully not too far off there will nanofluid batteries suitable for a stage rally machine. If electric cars are part of the automotive future there should be electric rally car test beds if safew enough.
Drain the fluid at the end of a loop or a mid-loop point service and pour in some more charged liquid. (or the quick change high density batteries etc)
http://nanoflowcell.com/ (1000km test machine in 8 hours?)

[Mirek]

As a fan of motorsport I don't look forward to electric cars at all even though I understand they have to come sooner or later. I don't know if You have ever seen live some electric race car/formula but the lack of sound and the train-like appearance is really killing any excitement.

[Watson]

https://youtu.be/5844VCjRpv0

It's awfull. I'm all for electric road cars to save fuel for motorsports.

Jay Leno once said it on top gear. The electric engine is to the internal combustion engine what the latter was to the horse. Horses were replaced in all the practical uses but they are still around for the things people enjoy about them. The same way petrol fuelled cars will stick around for people to have fun in. Though it will be an expensive hobby. To what degree competitive motorsport can be done with petrol cars is questionable as well, since the car makers will have moved on and won't invest money.

[AnttiL]

I'm looking forward to electric rally cars, having test driven a Tesla, they sure have performance. It's just the sound that's missing...

[Sulland]

I'm looking forward to electric rally cars, having test driven a Tesla, they sure have performance. It's just the sound that's missing...

Having looked at a few Formula E races, I disagree.
The sound is a big part of the fun, no sound no fun!

[Mirek]

Not only the sound. Electric cars are perfectly suitable for ideal torque vectoring and traction control. That makes them appear very slow because they drive like on rails and the point is that the faster the time the more boring it looks.

[Rally Power]

https://youtu.be/5844VCjRpv0
It's awfull. I'm all for electric road cars to save fuel for motorsports.
Jay Leno once said it on top gear. The electric engine is to the internal combustion engine what the latter was to the horse. Horses were replaced in all the practical uses but they are still around for the things people enjoy about them. The same way petrol fuelled cars will stick around for people to have fun in. Though it will be an expensive hobby. To what degree competitive motorsport can be done with petrol cars is questionable as well, since the car makers will have moved on and won't invest money.

That’s a scary future...it's like returning to silent films. Hopefully it’ll take a while. Current WRC’s probably won’t change in the next years. Maybe they’ll get a basic hybrid system to use at liaisons, but the cost to introduce high tech hybrid or full electric seems too high for now.
Meanwhile, time to enjoy some fine rally tunes, like this one: https://www.facebook.com/rallyemag/videos/10155462875229973/