DTM Spain - What the *&$%

[bt52b]

Haven't seen the race yet. Green won. Audi had a hissy fit and withdrew all remaing cars on lap 50 of 58 :eek:

[djparky]

err well, perhaps a bit unfair on Audi, they'd just watched virtually all their top cars getting crashed into by various Mercedes, Hakkinen nailed Tomczyk in turn 1 and then some back marker nailed Ekstrom a few laps later- it was a joke really, it did look like the Mercedes drivers were way over the edge of what was acceptable- not saying Audi are whiter than white- what they did at Zandvoort was pathetic

[BDunnell]

A friend who was watching it on TV in Germany has just texted me to say that it was the most pathetic 'race' he's ever seen.

Can the DTM survive being a two-make series? Not if this sort of thing goes on, surely. It's always a problem in such situations.

[Steelrat]

Apparently they decided to withdraw to "promote fair racing"

http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~13~id~154853.htm

[Mixa]

To be honest Audi should get a huge penalty. Them aint thinking the fans and will pull the cars out of the race when Mercedes drivers will hit for them what the?

Just cant understand why Audi is doing something like this. The last few years them hasnt been playing by the rules and now is whining about them. There are a lot of situation for past few years about Audi what the fans has been disliking like:

- The few seasons already them has thried to play them drivers to titles by giving more points to Audi drivers who needs them. 1. By moving away when champ contender has came 2. when a driver has already done a pit and other hasnt but them are in the same lap,just move away and block Mercedes drivers.. Actually both works very well for sure. Merc drivers are still playing fair and even 05 models can win the races if them can!

-Always complaining about the penalties! Offcourse them are trying to guard them drivers for penalties but just dont get some of them.. Also Audi were the team what was saying,"give them split points for Eurospeedway because our drivers were out of points" . Ok Eurospeedway race with safety car epic wasnt right but Im sure you guys are getting my point.

- and todays take offs by Mercedes drivers? What Audi has then been doing? Last year thried to wreck B.Schneider´s car when it was going to title,Ekström´s take off at Hocke a few years back against Alesi just to mention a few. Audi drivers are always snatching bumbers off to Merc drivers and doing overtakes by pushing! Fair racing? no way. Somehow I still miss the old ITC/DTM when almost everything was still possible :D

Thats just a few! I liked the Audi team when them had a TT so Im not an Audi hater. Just the last few years,GRRR!! :(

[VkmSpouge]

I just hope this race doesn't have it's points cut in half. Well done to Jamie Green for winning, pity it has been completely overshadowed by this farce.

[CarlMetro]

One of the worst displays of throwing toys out of a pram I've ever had the displeasure to see. A very poor move by Audi who obviously gave no thought to their fanbase :down:

Personally I didn't see anything too over the top, apart from La Rosa's move on Ekstrom but even then all La Rosa did was give as good as he was getting.

I suggest Audi stay well away from the BTCC if that's the way the react if one of their cars get a little door rubbing :rolleyes:

Still, makes for an interesting finale...........

[jens]

Mercedes-Benz drivers have often been more rude than Audi drivers and probably Audi thought that enough is enough. I think it's pretty hard to criticize the drivers personally as they are following team orders. The problem of such series is that there are only 2 makes competing and one driver has basically 9 team-mates. So that creates such a strange situation, when most of the drivers are not racing for result, but for a crash or blocking. If a title contender has pitted, then it's quite usual that a driver from a rival team in a year-or-two-old car is kept out to start blocking him heavily.

Häkkinen came to inside of Tomczyk and broke too late and as Tomczyk was alongside him, he had no chance to turn into the corner. So both went straight on and dropped to the second half of the pack. In La Rosa's defence I can say that Ekström pushed him onto the grass, where there was no grip. I guess that if la Rosa had wanted, he could have avoided the collision, but in such a delicate situation he of course didn't want to. In fact, in revenge Audi drivers tried to do its best to eliminate MB's title contender Spengler, but the Canadian managed to avoid a collision to finish second (surprisingly Green didn't slow down in the end) after suffering a drive through penalty for a reason I don't know. :mark: Premat blocked Spengler for some laps, but then he went wide in Turn1 and Spengler got through. Luhr pushed Spengler onto the gravel and also Rockenfeller was banging wheels with Spengler, but went off. It looked like that after the last incident Audi decided to withdraw as they didn't have any more drivers left in front of Spengler, who could possibly prevent him from scoring more points.

It doesn't create a good athmosphere for the last race though. I won't be surprised at all if all the three title contenders are going to be eliminated...

[BobbyC]

Taking all their toys and going home just doesn't cut it.

Instead of going for the win and saying a big "in your face" to authorities by winning, they acted like President Pelosi, Vice-President Byrd, and his left-hand man, Dingy Harry.

Cut and Run.

Surrender.

The better protest would be to go for the win and put a message on the cars the next week in protest (remember the 1996 NASCAR Kyle Petty Protest Car). In 1996, Felix Sabates protested Kyle Petty's penalty at a previous race by painting his car black (intended to resemble a certain competitor's car), with the message "All is Fair in Love and Racing" in Spanish. (Sabates is a Cuban emigre.)

Can you imagine if Audi had run the next DTM race with that phrase on all their cars instead of this stupid protest? That message would have been a better swipe.

[inimitablestoo]

I remember the series in its former life imploding at the end of 1996 when Alfa Romeo and Opel withdrew. I've got a sinking feeling it's going to happen again...

[BDunnell]

Mercedes-Benz drivers have often been more rude than Audi drivers and probably Audi thought that enough is enough. I think it's pretty hard to criticize the drivers personally as they are following team orders. The problem of such series is that there are only 2 makes competing and one driver has basically 9 team-mates. So that creates such a strange situation, when most of the drivers are not racing for result, but for a crash or blocking. If a title contender has pitted, then it's quite usual that a driver from a rival team in a year-or-two-old car is kept out to start blocking him heavily.

Exactly right. It's an intrinsic problem in situations like this.

[wedge]

DTM today is nothing more than glorified prototypes. One of the reasons why I can't seem to get my head round DTM is that they're not proper Touring Cars in the sense you can get away with panel bashing be it BTCC, V8SC or even NASCAR.

Has there been similar incidents in Aussie V8s? All I know is that the equalisation between Ford and Holden have been controversial and the Fords were forever moaning.

[electron]

You mabe have to be a follower of the DTM for many years to get the full view of this. It looks different when just taking a brief look from the outside I am sure.

The DTM is mostly Mercedes dominated, they are a superpower of Motorsports and this leads to frustration. Opel never could bring in the weight as Audi or Merc and finally had to pull for good. Audi is mostly one step behind but on seldom occations gets the very rare chance to beat Merc. This year they where maybe in their best form since new DTM but the curious rulings on Lausitzring brought in an extreme poisoned athmosphere. a race that should never have counted. As a reminder. Audi was FORCED by Merc to pull their appeal, I think I recall the wording "then we can finish this series" by Merc.
From that moment on it all went downward and now Mercedes has shown that whatever Haug told hisdrivers upfront the whole team was way over their heads. It was no order to kick the two Audis, I do not believe that but Haug failed to tell the guys who have no bussines with the championship anymore to let the 4 titlecontenders (before Barcelona Eki, Tomzcyk, Spengler, Schneider) race it out and kepp their F***ing heads when attacking those guys. You can bump, you can shove but you can nevereverever put these guys out!!!!!!! If you can't perform the infight without a knockout, let it go for goodnes sake.
I do not know what is worse, order to kick another driver or the failure to controll your team.
Audi was out of that race at the point they pulled out, no chance to do anything anmore, except maybe... well, Ulrich prevented that from happening. If you watched Rocky in those last laps, you know the race was calling for "it" to happen... this guy was ready to do "it".
I say well done, Audi.
It has proven that the series has to change dramaticly.

One of the major points I think needed to be done is run double headers on weekends. This doubles the races run, this offers more room to bounce back, this offers more chance to shine and get positive headlines (which is waht both Merc and Audi want, right?) and maye on a weekend both makes can go home a winner. what can be better than this??? I did never understand the current format.
Mercedes has the problem to be doomed to win. and often enogh they behave like that. on and off track and that is a shame.

a short sidenote: it could be briefly seen on TV that Bernd Schneider in the pits was talking to Hakkinen. well it looked like he was yelling at him and his gestures could be seen, he imitaded a passing move. I believe he was furious when he saw what Hakkinen did and told him that. This was shortly after his own forced end. Schneider seemed to already know something drastic has happened here. He is the one that knows DTM best and Hakkinen left the track early that day. I believe he realized that he produced something that went way over his head.
He didn't do it on purpose but he accepted the possible outcome "it's the corner or him ... either way, Mercedes wins" that mindset maybe is the reason for the end of this series. Tomzcyk never expected that move and could not do anything. this move was Kamikaze, something you do not expect in motorsports (did anyone see the Hamlin/Petty accident on sunday? should Petty have moved earler to avoid that too?)

[CarlMetro]

You mabe have to be a follower of the DTM for many years to get the full view of this. It looks different when just taking a brief look from the outside I am sure.

So from that comment you are assuming that those who have commented before haven't?


The DTM is mostly Mercedes dominated, they are a superpower of Motorsports and this leads to frustration.

:confused:


Audi was FORCED by Merc to pull their appeal, I think I recall the wording "then we can finish this series" by Merc.

A link to your proof would be good.


Haug failed to tell the guys who have no bussines with the championship anymore to let the 4 titlecontenders (before Barcelona Eki, Tomzcyk, Spengler, Schneider) race it out and kepp their F***ing heads when attacking those guys.

If you were a team manager, would you tell your drivers that? Every single driver, whether they're in a 2 year old Audi or a 2007 Merc has the right to do what they're paid to do, and that is race. If they are racing for position against a title contender, and the title contender tries to force them off the track, you are suggesting that they should just let it happen.


I do not know what is worse, order to kick another driver or the failure to controll your team.

Make up your mind, either you think Haug did give the order, in which case once again a link to your proof would be good, or he didn't.


I say well done, Audi. You seem to be in a very small minority there, because most people are slating them for their actions, including many Audi fans such as myself.



One of the major points I think needed to be done is run double headers on weekends. This doubles the races run, this offers more room to bounce back, this offers more chance to shine and get positive headlines (which is waht both Merc and Audi want, right?) and maye on a weekend both makes can go home a winner. what can be better than this???

This little statement sums up the fact you know little, if anything, about motorsport. Yes, two races does, strangely enough, increase the number of races run, but that in no way what so ever means that one team will not dominate the whole weekend. Unless of course you would bring in a new rule where each manufacturer has to win only one of the two races..........


I believe he was furious when he saw what Hakkinen did and told him that.

Link please


Hakkinen left the track early that day.

What was the problem with that?


I believe he realized that he produced something that went way over his head.
He didn't do it on purpose but he accepted the possible outcome "it's the corner or him ... either way, Mercedes wins" that mindset maybe is the reason for the end of this series. Tomzcyk never expected that move and could not do anything. this move was Kamikaze, something you do not expect in motorsports

Tomzcyk left the door open enough for Mika to make a move, plain and simple. Yes it was a brave move, and one which never came off but I would expect any driver worth their licence to try it.

[electron]

Hi


So from that comment you are assuming that those who have commented before haven't?
.

no, I don't.


If you were a team manager, would you tell your drivers that?

here we disagree. This is no "normal" racing series. It is a two team battle and in major parts a more of a marketing show with no strong governing body.
well, if you play like you say and like they did on sunday this is the outcome. You can do that if you have a strong independent team structure with individual teams (like NASCAR f x) but not on the DTM where this structure is nonexistent anymore.
Yes, I would tell my driver to not shove the opponent off track and don't Banzai move the reamaining title contenders. If one ca push, shove and bumpdraft he is a good driver. if he only gets by by eliminating the opponent he has his limits (one of the reasons I was so speachless when I saw Hakkinens move. that was so not him) I would expect this behaviour from a pro driver. errors are allowd but at least three accidents on sundy where not errors but plain stupid in my eyes and the outcome was pretty one sided. An opinion as good as anybodys. No link, no proof, just what I saw.


Make up your mind, either you think Haug did give the order, in which case once again a link to your proof would be good, or he didn't,.

Have you even seen the race? did you understand was was spoken? when Ullrich went to Haugs booth Haug said: ".. I have to talked to them upfront, belive me..." actually in a very whiny tone for Haug. It was clear to hear on German TV.
So obviously (as I understand that) he told his drivers to don't overreact in the race or do something stupid. Didn't do much I assume.
No, I do not believe Haug ordered them to shoot out the two Audis. Clear now?


This little statement sums up the fact you know little, if anything, about motorsport. Yes, two races does, strangely enough, increase the number of races run, but that in no way what so ever means that one team will not dominate the whole weekend. Unless of course you would bring in a new rule where each manufacturer has to win only one of the two races..........

I do not question your knowledge, please do not question mine. i happen to have a different opinion, just that.
Look at the WTCC which in my eye is a good example. how often does it happen that two different makes win on a weekend? quite often. good for everybody. actually one other thing: even the works teams operate independent as contenders, you see and hear their bosses and not only Theissen and Co.
Actually the one long race in the new DTM was not the original format and came to fit the TV timeslots better, not because it was considered better racing. I hate this pitstop nonsense. either you need one or you don't, mandatory stops is for endurance on certain occasions only.

as to the Schneider/Hakkinen talk in question: get yourself a taped race and look for yourself, I was on TV. I stated my interpretation of what I saw.



Tomzcyk left the door open enough for Mika to make a move, plain and simple. Yes it was a brave move, and one which never came off but I would expect any driver worth their licence to try it.

I would not siince this try from arookie would show bad judgment in race conditions.
Hakkinen did not make a passing move when he went to the leftest left line (aka dirt) when Tomczyk blocked the overtaking line, he went for sheet metal with that move. There was no way this line was going to work so Martin did not move again to block since the situition regardig a passing move was already clear for him.
I would have expected better from Hakkinen and when you know Martin you know he gets tire trouble from time to time. So f***ing take your time and don't play autoscooter on lap 7. there are two pitstops and a man like him knows very well that you don't win a race like this.

well I see we disagree, no reason to be hostile :)

I am somewhat relieved this has finally happened, it nedded a major blow to change the DTM for the better or if this isn't possible, sack it. This concept failed. DTM once was great but is a mere shadow of itself.

everything just IMO of course.

[AlexD]

I think the series started to go downhill when they moved from the cool coupes to saloons and then Opel quit. I don't think it has long left now really.

[wedge]

They went from coupes to 4-door saloons so the public could relate to cars more, instead of a glorified GT championship.

I think they should make the cars more equal by bringing updated cars every few years instead of every year. They should be cheaper to run by getting rid of all those aero aids

DTM is very unusual race series, very corporate driven compared to the Aussie V8s - correct me if I'm wrong but there's good healthy competition between the factory HRT Holdens and FPV Fords and their respective privateer counterparts.

[ioan]

This little statement sums up the fact you know little, if anything, about motorsport. Yes, two races does, strangely enough, increase the number of races run, but that in no way what so ever means that one team will not dominate the whole weekend.

Increasing the number of racing increases also the chances. Nothing strange about it.

He was right about it, so why the need to be so agressive?

As for Audi's move, I say they did what was right. They could have waited until lap 57/58, to give fans the chance to see the cars going around, as it seems that they don't care who wins and how they do it!

[CarlMetro]

He was right about it, so why the need to be so agressive?

In your opinion, perhaps he was, just not in mine.

If a car is dominant on a particular track, it does not matter how many races in a day/weekend you have, the same car will still win so increasing the number of races would have a more negative effect than a positive one.

[gm99]

After finally having seen a (full-length) replay of the race, I can now comment on it:

I don't think what Audi did was necessary. Over the course of this season (and seasons past), they have given as well as taken - Timo Scheider's constant bumping of Spengler at Zandvoort wasn't the fairest racing I've seen, either, for instance. And in a two-make series as the DTM sadly have become, it's inevitable that a Merc and an Audi will clash from time to time.

Yes, Häkkinen's move on Tomzcyk was optimistic at best and stupid at worst, but I refuse to believe that it was a deliberate attack to take him out. That is neither Mercedes' nor Mika's style.
Same can be said for La Rosa's crash with Ekström: They were fighting for position at that stage, and Ekström was also very aggressive and pushed La Rosa out on the grass, from where La Rosa came back right into him.

I see nothing heroic in Audi's decision to withdraw, especially not when you consider they had no cars in front-running positions at that point anyway. Personally, I think Audi ought to be penalised for withdrawing, but I doubt it will happen because the series cannot afford to upset 50% of their field...

Good thing that Mercedes did not order Green to give up his first victory in favor of Spengler, whereas Audi had no problems doing so with Prémat at Zandvoort.

Hopefully, the tension between the two manufacturers that has been building up throughout the season will cool down again, otherwise we might well see the end of the DTM again, which would be a shame, as it still draws huge crowds, in particular in Germany and has a great mix of drivers (although the racing is not all that great, IMO, partly through those two forced pitstops which puts the outcome of the race mainly down to strategy).

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Good thing that Mercedes did not order Green to give up his first victory in favor of Spengler, whereas Audi had no problems doing so with Prémat at Zandvoort.

Mercedes surely would have had Green hand over the victory had the Audis raced till the end. As it turned out though, they couldn't afford the PR disaster the combined events (Audi withdrawing cars and Spengler being handed the win) - IMO, of course.

[Erki]

It's actually quite interesting that a racing series held in such high regard with so many star drivers has such poor driving standards. IMO they started deteriorating already a few years ago, maybe indeed when Opel left. But that's not an excuse.

[djparky]

I've been a long time fan of the DTM- I watched it at Donnington and Silverstone in the mid 90's and it was just amazing... with Opels demise and the change to one race with mandatory pit stops my interest in it has declined- to me it's way too much like F1- just wait for the pit stops to overtake (at least in some of the races I've seen in the last couple of years)- there doesn't seem to be that much overtaking in it either now, not to mention team orders (eg Zandvoort)

if they switched back to 2 races per weekend- sprint race and a longer race, removed alot of those daft aero devices and persuaded a third manufacturer to join in then it would be much more appealing- that said I'm not going to drive 250 miles to watch them on that glorified go-kart track which is the Brands Hatch Indy circuit

2 make series can work- look at the Aussie V8 series

[BDunnell]

I've been a long time fan of the DTM- I watched it at Donnington and Silverstone in the mid 90's and it was just amazing... with Opels demise and the change to one race with mandatory pit stops my interest in it has declined- to me it's way too much like F1- just wait for the pit stops to overtake (at least in some of the races I've seen in the last couple of years)- there doesn't seem to be that much overtaking in it either now, not to mention team orders (eg Zandvoort)

if they switched back to 2 races per weekend- sprint race and a longer race, removed alot of those daft aero devices and persuaded a third manufacturer to join in then it would be much more appealing- that said I'm not going to drive 250 miles to watch them on that glorified go-kart track which is the Brands Hatch Indy circuit

2 make series can work- look at the Aussie V8 series

I agree with all of that. The trouble with the DTM being a two-make series, though, is that German manufacturers have shown some pretty dirty tactics against each other in such situations over the years.

[electron]

well said.
It is the fact that the series is parctically run by the two bigshots Haug and Ullrich (no matter what elese is written on paper...on rare occations thje DMSB tries to play as well but only after the rulebook that is forged by the series decision makers - remember, teamorder is legal in DTM!) that makes DTM so special. There is no other racing event (I refuse to call it racing series here) that I am aware of that operates so make-driven. That is the problem the DTM has and I am afraid cannot overcome because the new DTM was founded that way.

absolutely no team structure, no independent drivers/teams, privateers, all focused on the two make battle and their stars (where mercedes can't get enough of international high profile, starting with the poor Alesi who was kinda expendable when Hakkinen took over).

I tell you and remember these words: no third make will come into this racing event anymore. The risk is not worth the effort.

there is one superglory winner who takes it all and a loser that gets nothing. At least that is what it is for the two makes. If you had 10something teams that are promoted and call their own shots, being second or third in the end would mean something. today, second place make is *last* place, aka the ultimate looser.
Audi cannot afford that all the times over the years, nor can Mercedes afford it even one year.
This situation had to cook over sooner or later.

and just a reminder: Team (aka make-)order is allowed in DTM. To call it unfair would be the same as calling the mandatory pitstops unfair. like it or not (I don't like either) but it is part of the rules and is practiced by both parts. So do not blame Audi in comparison to last weekend. Mercedes did and does it as well. The rule is a punch in the face for all racing fans.

[SEAN-B.]

Hmm....this is all very interesting to read.As it is my only source to know what is going on overseas with such series until our winter season when THEN SPEED (we seriously need a second racing channel now,SPEED or FOX[HINT,HINT!!!!!!!])let's us see(DTM,BTCC,WTCC,SuperGT,SuperV8's) them all in a row.I look forward to it.

To be honest,I could see this coming on.I love the series,but think it is just too hard to keep the intrest in a two make car series without people losing intrest except for the diehards like ourselves.Why no intrest from BMW or OPEL when they could just as easily put the same amount of money into racing in a more competitive series with more manufactures where there is more sponsorship possibilities?

I'm surprised for the same reason why then hasn't the SuperV8's in Australia had the same issues?Better planning on the orginazations' part to keep things fair and under control possibly?Makes you wonder then who is running things in the DTM?The orginazation or the manufactures?When things go unchecked without penalties or some better thought into the equalization of making it into a more even playing field these sort of things tend to happen,IMO.