FIA hearing - Mclaren out of WCC 2007 *merged*

[Malbec]

If Ron Dennis truly was a man of 'integrity' he would fall on his sword as he is now nothing more than a liar and a cheat.

Well, when he found out about it the first people he informed were the FIA, hence the appeal so don't you think he already has fallen on his sword?

[BeansBeansBeans]

There is absolutely no defence for that.

If Ron Dennis truly was a man of 'integrity' he would fall on his sword as he is now nothing more than a liar and a cheat.


You're right, there is no defence for it - It makes pretty shocking reading. However, is Ron Dennis a cheat? Or merely the head of an organisation in which cheating has taken place? It's a subtle distinction, but an important one. Either way, the buck stops with the man at the top, I guess.

[truefan72]

In reading the FIA press release. It is funny to note that most of this type of conversations and communications goes on ALL THE TIME , and have dbeen done so since the inception of the sport.

I gurantee you that if you demanded the communctaion from Ferrari, Renault and BMW, you would find eerily similar discusion going on and almost the same precison of technical data being used about other teams.

What exactly do you think Adrian Newy is doing over at Red Bull. Inventing stuff he doesn't know or relying on information "in his head" about stuff he carries over from his prevous stints. As well as probasbly quite ongoing conversations with his contacts and sources around the industry.

It was proven that McClaren did not benefit from the technical specs at all, and I might remind a few people that most of the work of the 2007 car was completed sometime in mid-late 2006.

If the FIA are going to become the subective arbitrators of interpreting what communication is deemed stolen info and what isn't, or for that matter what the notion of stolen data is,... thewn we are going to go down a very slipperly slope in F1.

[Daniel]

You're right, there is no defence for it - It makes pretty shocking reading. However, is Ron Dennis a cheat? Or merely the head of an organisation in which cheating has taken place? It's a subtle distinction, but an important one. Either way, the buck stops with the man at the top, I guess.
Couldn't agree more. As a team McLaren should be punished for the mistakes of employees but as a person there is no proof that RD asked to be part of this so why should he fall on his sword?

[N. Jones]

Why? Because they talked about Ferrari's data?

Talking about it and using it are two different things, and so far the latter has not been proven.

[ioan]

The very point is that the FIA doesn't keep things clean, as shown by the inconsistency with which it dealt with the Toyota and McLaren cases.

The FIA is neither fair nor consistent.

The chief objective for the FIA yesterday was to be seen to punish McLaren whilst maintaining TV ratings by keeping the Alonso/Hamilton race going.

Commercial interests have no part in a judicial system that is fair or clean.

And this is the real problem in F1.
The question is: Why?
The FIA are not the commercial rights holders of the sport, so why do they act like this?
Because the president of the FIA, Max Mosley, is best friend of the commercial rights holder, Bernard Ecclestone. And this should stop being this way!

How much better it would be if every cheating team would be thrown out of the competition for at least a season, with a lifetime ban if they try it again! They would not dare to do it again, ever.

[ioan]

Why? Because they talked about Ferrari's data?

[i]Talking[i/] about it and [i]using[i/] are do different things, and so far the latter has not been proven.

What part of "We have to try it" you don't understand? It's plain English after all!

[markabilly]

Music to my ears......

"3.4 All three drivers responded. Mr. Hamilton responded that he had no information
responsive to the FIA’s request. Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa both submitted emails
to the FIA which the WMSC finds highly relevant. Subsequently (at
McLaren’s request) both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa made written statements
to the WMSC verifying that these e-mails were sent and received and offering
context and explanations regarding the e-mails. The e-mails show unequivocally
that both Mr. Alonso and Mr. de la Rosa received confidential Ferrari information
via Coughlan; that both drivers knew that this information was confidential
Ferrari information and that both knew that the information was being received by
Coughlan from Stepney.
weight distribution
3.5 On 21 March 2007 at 09.57 Mr. de la Rosa wrote to Coughlan in the following
terms:
“Hi Mike, do you know the Red Car’s Weight Distribution? It would be
important for us to know so that we could try it in the simulator. Thanks in
advance, Pedro.
p.s. I will be in the simulator tomorrow.”
3.6 In his evidence given to the WMSC, Mr. de la Rosa confirmed that Coughlan
replied by text message with precise details of Ferrari’s weight distribution.
3.7 On 25 March 2007 at 01.43 Mr. de la Rosa sent an e-mail to Fernando Alonso
which sets out Ferrari’s weight distribution to two decimal places on each of
Ferrari’s two cars as set up for the Australian Grand Prix.
3.8 Mr. Alonso replied to this e-mail on 25 March 2007 at 12.31 (they were in
different time zones). His e-mail includes a section headed “Ferrari” in which he
says “its weight distribution surprises me; I don’t know either if it’s 100%
reliable, but at least it draws attention”. The e-mail continues with a discussion
of how McLaren’s weight distribution compares with Ferrari’s.
3.9 Mr. de la Rosa replied on 25 March 2007 13.02 stating the following:
“All the information from Ferrari is very reliable. It comes from Nigel Stepney,
their former chief mechanic – I don’t know what post he holds now. He’s the
same person who told us in Australia that Kimi was stopping in lap 18. He’s very
friendly with Mike Coughlan, our Chief Designer, and he told him that.”
3.10 Mr. de la Rosa’s e-mail to Coughlan specifically stated that he wished to receive
Ferrari’s weight distribution for the purposes of testing it in the simulator the
following day (“It would be important for us to know so that we could try it in the
simulator”). Mr. de la Rosa explained to the WMSC at the meeting of 13
September 2007 that when Coughlan responded with the precise details in
question, he (de la Rosa) decided that the weight distribution was so different to
the McLaren car set up that it would not, in fact, be tested in the simulator. Mr de
la Rosa says that thereafter he regarded the information as unimportant. It seems
highly unlikely to the WMSC that a test driver would take a decision of this sort
on his own. It also is not clear why, if Mr. de la Rosa regarded this information as
unimportant, he would still convey and discuss it with Mr. Alonso some days later
in his e-mail exchange of 25th March. Mr. de la Rosa’s evidence also makes clear
that there was no reluctance or hesitation about testing the Ferrari information for
potential benefit, but only that on this occasion he says that there was a technical
reason not to do so"

There is absolutely no defence for that.

If Ron Dennis truly was a man of 'integrity' he would fall on his sword as he is now nothing more than a liar and a cheat.
NO if you read this, then you should realize the so called "ruling" just what a Machiavelli of almost 500 years ago would have done

Don't make it right, just makes it fact


has anyone really wondered why i chose the name "Markabilly" and made my appearance when I did???

[BeansBeansBeans]

has anyone really wondered why i chose the name "Markabilly" and made my appearance when I did???

I just thought that your name must be Mark, and that you liked Rockabilly music :p :

[Daniel]

Why? Because they talked about Ferrari's data?

Talking about it and using it are two different things, and so far the latter has not been proven.
Rubbish. It was only days ago that people were saying "There's not proof that anyone in McLaren other than Coughlin saw the data" now there is and people simply want more proof. The fact that PdR and FA had a knowledge and never disclosed it makes them liars.............

[Viktory]

What part of "We have to try it" you don't understand? It's plain English after all!

According to the evidence De La Rosa even tested the Ferrari weight distribution in a simulation... Of course they used some of the data...

[ioan]

You defended Schumacher when he blatantly cheated at Monaco, did you not?

He was convicted purely because he didn't damage the car, not because there was clear evidence of wrongdoing like in this case.

It was another spineless decision made by the FIA under external pressure. But we already discussed that extensively, so I won't start it again.

A case that is more like what we have no is the 94 Benetton TC case, and there again Max and Bernie orchestrated everything just like now, "for the well being of the sport" and their pockets.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Why? Because they talked about Ferrari's data?

Talking about it and using it are two different things, and so far the latter has not been proven.

They were obtaining confidential Ferrari data via an illegal channel in order to try and gain an advantage. The emails involving PDLR are pretty damning.

[markabilly]

I just thought that your name must be Mark, and that you liked Rockabilly music :p :

No, sorry my name is not mark at all

but I do like some of what some have reffered to as rockabilly music......

[Daniel]

They were obtaining confidential Ferrari data via an illegal channel in order to try and gain an advantage. The emails involving PDLR are pretty damning.
Exactly. Whether or not they gained advantage is irrelevant IMHO. Like taking drugs in cycling and then finishing last and arguing against a ban because you didn't gain any advantage :mark:

[ioan]

There is speculation in the ruling i.e. the content of the phone calls between NS & MC are not known BUT what has been released by the FIA shows that PDLR in particular discussed Ferrari data with Coughlan in full knowledge that it had come from Stepney. To what extent it was then used, and what effect that had on performance, is not clear, but it was discussed. PDLR then shared some of that with Alonso.

My first reaction on reading the FIA information was that Coughlan, PDLR and Alonso have landed McLaren right in it. I still don't believe that Ron Dennis had knowledge of this, and his statements reflect that, but that doesn't alter the point that members of his team had access to, and discussed, Ferrari data.

In the light of that, quite how Alonso can work with, and race for, the team for the remaining races of this season is beyond me, and how he (and PDLR) have escaped any sort of sanction (even given MM's immunity) is surprising to say the least.

I do believe that a more approriate punishment would have been to exclude the team - the entire team - from the whole of the 2007 season. That would be harsh on Hamilton, whose faith in Ron Dennis in particular has been obvious, but he is a member of the team as much as anyone.

Ferrari's position has been seen to be right. There was 'new evidence' and that new evidence has been crucial. I do think there are questions that remain about Nigel Stepney's role, and Ferrari's responsibility for his actions, because it remains the case that without his initial approach none of this would, or could, have happened.

That said, it seems McLaren team members sealed the fate of their team :(

Finally! I was starting to lose any hope.


In the light of that, quite how Alonso can work with, and race for, the team for the remaining races of this season is beyond me, and how he (and PDLR) have escaped any sort of sanction (even given MM's immunity) is surprising to say the least.

Money is killing this sport, and we all know who is the culprit for that. What we don't know is why the commercial rights holder has the right to be in the WMSC and to decide on sporting aspects of the "sport"!?

[N. Jones]

What part of "We have to try it" you don't understand? It's plain English after all!
There is no proof that they did use it in their race cars. I also ( :laugh: laughing, sorry, I do not want to get in a heated argument with you) did see the english that stated: It is unlikely that a test driver would pursue or not pursue these new ideas on his own.

It is clear throughout the whole FIA document that people within McLaren DID talk about trying these things but there is no evidence that they USED it.

That is what I am saying. If they did use it then McLaren should be thrown out.

Also, I know this makes you mad ioan, but the other facts are as follows:

Ferrari ran an illegal car during the Australian Grand Prix (as proven by Coughlin admitting that Stepney told him so and showed him the data to back up him claim). No punishment was doled out to Ferrari.

Nigel Stepney has stolen a huge amount of data from Ferrari and as yet the FIA has done nothing, not even a slap on the wrist, when it comes to what Mr. Stepney has done. He ratted out his employer! He willing told McLaren when Kimi was stopping at Oz!

If McLaren are to be dragged over the coals due to some rogue employees why aren't Ferrari?

[ICKE]

Ferrari ran an illegal car (as proven by Coughlin stating that Stepney told him so and should him the data). No punishment was doled out to Ferrari.

Your facts are not facts but personal opinions, and incorrect as well, it was not an illegal car.

[ioan]

In reading the FIA press release. It is funny to note that most of this type of conversations and communications goes on ALL THE TIME , and have dbeen done so since the inception of the sport.

I gurantee you that if you demanded the communctaion from Ferrari, Renault and BMW, you would find eerily similar discusion going on and almost the same precison of technical data being used about other teams.

What exactly do you think Adrian Newy is doing over at Red Bull. Inventing stuff he doesn't know or relying on information "in his head" about stuff he carries over from his prevous stints. As well as probasbly quite ongoing conversations with his contacts and sources around the industry.

It was proven that McClaren did not benefit from the technical specs at all, and I might remind a few people that most of the work of the 2007 car was completed sometime in mid-late 2006.

If the FIA are going to become the subective arbitrators of interpreting what communication is deemed stolen info and what isn't, or for that matter what the notion of stolen data is,... thewn we are going to go down a very slipperly slope in F1.

More and more denial of the reality.

[Malbec]

Nigel Stepney has stolen a huge amount of data from Ferrari and as yet the FIA has done nothing, not even a slap on the wrist, when it comes to what Mr. Stepney has done. He ratted out his employer! He willing told McLaren when Kimi was stopping at Oz!

If McLaren are to be dragged over the coals due to some rogue employees why aren't Ferrari?

There will be another FIA hearing in the next month concerning Coughlan and Stepney. If found guilty of misconduct both could be banned in working in FIA regulated motorsport ever again.

[BeansBeansBeans]

If McLaren are to be dragged over the coals due to some rogue employees why aren't Ferrari?

The Ferrari employee was acting illegally to the detriment of Ferrari. Quite how Ferrari should then be punished for his actions is beyond me.

[Malbec]

More and more denial of the reality.

Actually he is correct, unless you believe that engineers have their memories wiped when they move from team to team.

The line between industrial espionage and simple job transfer is very VERY blurry. There does need to be some clarification regarding this. Remember this entire McLaren episode would have been perfectly legal if Nigel Stepney had simply changed employer at the start of this season.

[N. Jones]

Rubbish. It was only days ago that people were saying "There's not proof that anyone in McLaren other than Coughlin saw the data" now there is and people simply want more proof. The fact that PdR and FA had a knowledge and never disclosed it makes them liars.............

But it doesn't mean that they used that data in their cars.

Yesterday everyone kept saying this and that without any proof. Fine, today you have proof that more than one person knew; but where is the proof that the data was actually used to give McLaren an advantage during the race?

I for one believe it innocent until proven guilty. Don't you?
Hell, doesn't anyone else who keeps bashing McLaren?

[ioan]

Also, I know this makes you mad ioan, but the other facts are as follows:

Ferrari ran an illegal car during the Australian Grand Prix (as proven by Coughlin admitting that Stepney told him so and showed him the data to back up him claim). No punishment was doled out to Ferrari.

You call that a fact?!
I'll just ask you to check what means "illegal" than. :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

The Ferrari employee was acting illegally to the detriment of Ferrari. Quite how Ferrari should then be punished for his actions is beyond me.
I wonder if N Jones advocates prosecuting victims of crime because they "allowed it to happen".

Of course you will take some knowledge with you. But you don't take documents and designs which are property of your old employer. Or at least you shouldn't ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

There will be another FIA hearing in the next month concerning Coughlan and Stepney.
I still don't understand why they, as central figures to the whole saga, were not at the hearing yesterday. Perhaps it has something to do with pending criminal investigations...?

[Viktory]

The line between industrial espionage and simple job transfer is very VERY blurry. There does need to be some clarification regarding this. Remember this entire McLaren episode would have been perfectly legal if Nigel Stepney had simply changed employer at the start of this season.

And if he had left the 780 pages dossier at Ferrari.

[Daniel]

But it doesn't mean that they used that data in their cars.

Yesterday everyone kept saying this and that without any proof. Fine, today you have proof that more than one person knew; but where is the proof that the data was actually used to give McLaren an advantage during the race?

I for one believe it innocent until proven guilty. Don't you?
Hell, doesn't anyone else who keeps bashing McLaren?
They've been proven guilty............. no need to assume that they are innocent.

[Simmo666]

(First time post, though I've been doing the pickems for a while.)

It seems the McLaren drivers were lucky to avoid being punished, only because of Max's promise of immunity.


9.3 Exceptionally, because primary responsibility must rest with McLaren, in the interests of the sport and also because McLaren's drivers were offered immunity from individual sanction by the President of the FIA in his letter dated 30 August 2007, the WMSC does not consider that it is appropriate to impose any sanction on them individually or impose sanctions on McLaren which would affect these drivers' individual Championship standings. As such, both McLaren drivers will retain all the drivers' Championship points they have won so far in the 2007 season and will be permitted to win drivers' Championship points and attend the podium in the remaining races of the 2007 season.

Of course, without this offer of immunity, then I'm guessing that Alonso, de la Rosa and Hamilton (although he still knew nothing) would have not submitted anything, and thus there would have been none of this damning evidence to show at the trial, and McLaren might well have received the same punishment as the first time again, as it seemed Ferrari's only new evidence was the sheer volume of messages between Stepney and Coughlan.

As goes on in real courtrooms all the time (plea bargaining, isn't it?) Alonso and DLR admitted their part in the matter for a lesser sentence (in this case none), while helping to punish the McLaren team.


The line between industrial espionage and simple job transfer is very VERY blurry. There does need to be some clarification regarding this.

You can't really remove the knowledge from someone's head, its more their personal property in there, information they've learned on how things work, perfectly legitimately. If they took documents, they're team property, not personal, so that'd be punishable. Applying knowledge learned from another team that you kept in your head wouldn't be (and isn't) punishable. I think.

[N. Jones]

You call that a fact?!
I'll just ask you to check what means "illegal" than. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I do.

[ioan]

The line between industrial espionage and simple job transfer is very VERY blurry.

It's only blurred if we don't want to acknowledge that it's clear.

[N. Jones]

I wonder if N Jones advocates prosecuting victims of crime because they "allowed it to happen".

What on earth does that mean? Are you trying to equate murder with looking at someone's IP?

[/QUOTE]Of course you will take some knowledge with you. But you don't take documents and designs which are property of your old employer. Or at least you shouldn't ;) [/QUOTE]

[N. Jones]

They've been proven guilty............. no need to assume that they are innocent.
yes, guilty of readings pages. Not guilty of gaining an advantage. Big difference there my friend.

[Daniel]

What on earth does that mean? Are you trying to equate murder with looking at someone's IP?

Of course you will take some knowledge with you. But you don't take documents and designs which are property of your old employer. Or at least you shouldn't ;) [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Where did I say murder? :mark:

[markabilly]

(First time post, though I've been doing the pickems for a while.)

It seems the McLaren drivers were lucky to avoid being punished, only because of Max's promise of immunity.



Of course, without this offer of immunity, then I'm guessing that Alonso, de la Rosa and Hamilton (although he still knew nothing) would have not submitted anything, and thus there would have been none of this damning evidence to show at the trial, and McLaren might well have received the same punishment as the first time again, as it seemed Ferrari's only new evidence was the sheer volume of messages between Stepney and Coughlan.

As goes on in real courtrooms all the time (plea bargaining, isn't it?) Alonso and DLR admitted their part in the matter for a lesser sentence (in this case none), while helping to punish the McLaren team.



I think.

Acually as I said it before last week, the reason for the immunity offer was TO PROTECT THE WDC, and keep fan interest and really to protect the health of the revenue, so when the stuff popped out, they could still compete...... it has nothing to do with truth justice or fair play or sporting rules.....or even the law....

Many have now realized that ( I think and hope) and are here complaining about it--as they should be......

[Daniel]

yes, guilty of readings pages. Not guilty of gaining an advantage. Big difference there my friend.
That in itself is a crime......

[airshifter]

I think the FIA has made a joke of this entire thing, and their decision has a great deal of bias against the team, while preserving at least some of those now proven to be in the wrong.

Sadly, I think they acted with less bias than a number of people here on the forums, who have and continue to show blatant bias and make statements where supporting their view is more important than discussing known facts. Combined with some of them turning that into personal attacks against others with a differing opinion, you have reduced yourselves well below anything anyone on the McLaren team did.

[Daniel]

What on earth does that mean? Are you trying to equate murder with looking at someone's IP?
I never said murder. I simply said "crime" do you realise that industrial espionage IS a crime?

[BeansBeansBeans]

yes, guilty of readings pages. Not guilty of gaining an advantage. Big difference there my friend.

They were attempting to gain an advantage using what they knew were illegal means.

They may not ultimately have gained an advantage, but it's still a crime.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Combined with some of them turning that into personal attacks against others with a differing opinion, you have reduced yourselves well below anything anyone on the McLaren team did.

I don't agree with that. Getting a bit heated during an argument may be silly, but it surely isn't a bigger crime than cheating?

[Simmo666]

Acually as I said it before last week, the reason for the immunity offer was TO PROTECT THE WDC, and keep fan interest and really to protect the health of the revenue, so when the stuff popped out, they could still compete...... it has nothing to do with truth justice or fair play or sporting rules.....

Many have now realized that ( I think and hope) and are here complaining about it--as they should be......

It does very much appear that way, and politics often has many more layers than just the obvious one. I think it will have been thought (when making that offer as you said) that it would protect the WDC, as its the one the public most cares about. I don't think they could have given out a decision that would have pleased everyone, unfortunately, so they had to come to some decision. Unlike a court which would (or should) look after public opinion, it's the FIA's World Championship, so they're naturally going to go for the decision that suits themselves first (rightly or wrongly), aren't they? Maybe a question should be whether a public court and not the FIA should have been allowed to judge this.

[Daniel]

They were attempting to gain an advantage using what they knew were illegal means.

They may not ultimately have gained an advantage, but it's still a crime.
BBB I think it's scary that someone on this forum even feels that even "just" reading another team's documents is OK. I doubt he/she will listen to you however.

[TEEJAY]

Here's my take on it. In my opinion, the actions of the council were groundless. They have no proof that with the data, that the team used them to make actual changes to the car. The are merely going on here say which in any case holds no grounds for any punishment. so, is McLaren a cheater....no, because they did nothing to cheat. The question that I ask was how they got the info? Is Alonso a hacker and got them on the net? Did he wear glasses with a big nose and a beard to go under cover and get them or was it the Ferrari member, who has since been fired, that gave them away? Even though the man was fired, he still DID it. Thus, if punishment is warranted, it is warranted on both ends not on one alone. However, i get back to one point. It is he said this and they said that with no phisical proof that or the parts in Mclaren's garage that show they modified anything. Look at the NFL for us who watch it. Teams study a reel of the team that they are facing to get a sense of how to play them. Is it illegal? No, it's info shared by ALL teams. Is it cheating? no. They merely say, here is a team that we played in the past and they whooped us. Let's see what we can do differently to not let that happen when we play them this week.

[Daniel]

Why are you debating where the info came from? We know where it came from. There is a trail.....

[N. Jones]

Acually as I said it before last week, the reason for the immunity offer was TO PROTECT THE WDC, and keep fan interest and really to protect the health of the revenue, so when the stuff popped out, they could still compete...... it has nothing to do with truth justice or fair play or sporting rules.....or even the law....

Many have now realized that ( I think and hope) and are here complaining about it--as they should be......

:up:

[N. Jones]

They were attempting to gain an advantage using what they knew were illegal means.

They may not ultimately have gained an advantage, but it's still a crime.

Where is the proof that they were attempting to gain an advantage. No where does it say that they used this info anywhere. It is implied but it is not proven?

[TEEJAY]

Why are you debating where the info came from? We know where it came from. There is a trail.....
My point is. Where it came from, that is where the punishment should begin. The punishment didn't involve Ferrari, but involved the end of that line and that was McLaren. The other point is that Ferrari FIRED that member, but the FIA did not touch the team. If the council actually did their job and wanted to do it right (with regards to punishment) they need to do it with BOTH teams.

[Daniel]

Where is the proof that they were attempting to gain an advantage. No where does it say that they used this info anywhere. It is implied but it is not proven?
What does it matter? It is an offence in itself to have another team's data. When it was just Coughlin you could argue it was one rogue employee. But at least 5 employees have been implicated. The "team" was involved.

[airshifter]

I don't agree with that. Getting a bit heated during an argument may be silly, but it surely isn't a bigger crime than cheating?

Is it a bigger crime? No.

But as of now I've seen nothing that proves anyone other than a small group of McLaren employees were guilty of having this information, and no evidence that it influenced the car.

Those people shown guilty should be punished without doubt.

The influence on the design of the car should be investigated with a fine toothed comb, and if there is ANY evidence that the design was in fact influenced both drivers should be DQ'd from the WDC.

What we have at this point is nothing more than a partially done investigation that condemns a team, yet excludes some that evidence shows to have taken part in these actions with intent to gain advantage. Why not condemn all the forum members based on the actions of a few rather than judge them individually? ;)




I agree with your statement that at least some of the McLaren team and drivers had that information and intent. But at this point they should continue to investigate to clear the name of those not involved. It is just as possible that the design influence on the car never happened, and that many team members including Lewis never took part or held any information that was improper to have.

If some people in the company you worked for were proven to have stolen IP from another company, would you find it acceptable that you as an individual were branded with being a thief if you had no part in it?

[Daniel]

My point is. Where it came from, that is where the punishment should begin. The punishment didn't involve Ferrari, but involved the end of that line and that was McLaren. The other point is that Ferrari FIRED that member, but the FIA did not touch the team. If the council actually did their job and wanted to do it right (with regards to punishment) they need to do it with BOTH teams.
Where is the proof that Ferrari did it on purpose. Until then it's just the action of one rogue employee. Same as it was when McLaren had no penalty when it was just Coughlin.

[TEEJAY]

Look, we can do this all day. The fact of the matter is that there is no physical proof on the car that there was a change using the data. Whether they had it or not, they cannot prove that it was actually used. Thus, this would may ANY punishment in this case warrantless. The punishment is totally appealable based on the grounds that paper proves nothing other than there was tech data that they had. Does any of the emails say that they used them?

[TEEJAY]

Let me add one more thing. What ONE person does affects the team as a whole. Regardless of how many did it, the teams in general are responsible. Plain and simple. That's the way it should be.

[jjanicke]

I doubt this is over yet.

If the details come out and there is no real evidence that the data was used then McLaren must surely appeal, anything less is an admission of guilt.

Or simply an admission of the iron ruling of the FIA. Like Honda last year, Mclaren might simply choose not to pursue an appeal because of the potential "disrepute" rath of the FIA.

[rabf1]

Why hasnt McLaren fired alonso and de la rosa?

[Malbec]

Where is the proof that they were attempting to gain an advantage. No where does it say that they used this info anywhere. It is implied but it is not proven?

With respect to industrial espionage in criminal law, whether the information was used is irrelevant. Possession = guilt unless you can prove that any individual involved in the case is acting against company regulations and that the company concerned blew the whistle as soon as it learnt of the incident.

[TEEJAY]

Had it been my decision and I was the team owner (I wish I was) they would be gone.

[Malbec]

I agree with your statement that at least some of the McLaren team and drivers had that information and intent. But at this point they should continue to investigate to clear the name of those not involved. It is just as possible that the design influence on the car never happened, and that many team members including Lewis never took part or held any information that was improper to have.

If some people in the company you worked for were proven to have stolen IP from another company, would you find it acceptable that you as an individual were branded with being a thief if you had no part in it?

I disagree.

In industrial espionage the organisation is held responsible for the actions of individuals unless it can prove that those individuals acted against the company regulations and that such behaviour was actively discouraged and that the relevant authorities were informed with appropriate haste.

The problem with this case is that senior engineers were shown to have known about the possession of Ferrari data and sometimes the actual contents yet no attempt was made to inform the FIA or possibly even the chief of the organisation Ron Dennis. Therefore the organisation failed to discourage industrial espionage nor report it when it was found to exist.

As such the organisation should be punished and it has been.

[rabf1]

From what I can tell, Caughlin got info from Stepney. Caughlin then provided some general information to de la rosa who passed some things on to alonso. de la rosa and alonso talked about incorporating some of the information into mclaren simulations and tests but it never happened.

[Malbec]

My point is. Where it came from, that is where the punishment should begin. The punishment didn't involve Ferrari, but involved the end of that line and that was McLaren. The other point is that Ferrari FIRED that member, but the FIA did not touch the team. If the council actually did their job and wanted to do it right (with regards to punishment) they need to do it with BOTH teams.

The difference is that Ferrari as an organisation can show it discourages industrial espionage and took appropriate action when it found one of its employees was possibly involved, ie they suspended him, informed the FIA and requested an investigation by the police in Italy.

McLaren can't do that quite as easily.

[Malbec]

Or simply an admission of the iron ruling of the FIA. Like Honda last year, Mclaren might simply choose not to pursue an appeal because of the potential "disrepute" rath of the FIA.

Alternatively if they feel hard done by and have the evidence to prove their innocence, or perhaps that the FIA are guilty of entrapment (since they turned a blind eye when Toyota did the same thing) they may be able to appeal in the civil courts too.

[jjanicke]

Why? McLaren were in possession of stolen Ferrari info. That's all. They stole it. If they didn't want the info, they would have reported all to FIA.
Grand Prix.com, BTW, is extremely biased in favour of McLaren. Same with P-F1. Their patriotism is nauseating.

They are guilty of pretty anything but "stealling".

[grantb4]

Why hasnt McLaren fired alonso and de la rosa?
Exactly. They should have done this yesterday. I'm a McLaren fan, but Coughlin, De La Rosa and Alonso must be released ASAP. Unfortunately the way the WMSC punishment is written, McLaren must do as well as possible this year in order to get faux points in order to reduce the fine. Also any employees in the simulator that knew about this weight distribution test should be relieved also (if they knew why they were testing what they were testing).

[airshifter]

I disagree.

In industrial espionage the organisation is held responsible for the actions of individuals unless it can prove that those individuals acted against the company regulations and that such behaviour was actively discouraged and that the relevant authorities were informed with appropriate haste.

The problem with this case is that senior engineers were shown to have known about the possession of Ferrari data and sometimes the actual contents yet no attempt was made to inform the FIA or possibly even the chief of the organisation Ron Dennis. Therefore the organisation failed to discourage industrial espionage nor report it when it was found to exist.

As such the organisation should be punished and it has been.

Dylan,

I have no problem with the fact the McLaren as an organization has been punished. Though it is a small percentage of people known to have held information I feel it is enough to imply that "the team" acted improperly.

What I have a problem with is the fact that Alonso has known involvement, yet was granted immunity and may become the WDC despite this participation. Granted it was a "plea bargain" situation, but this same situation will allow speculation if either Alonso or Hamilton win the WDC, which at this point appears highly likely.

If the FIA were acting in the true interest of the sport, they would ensure the investigation were completed, so that it would clarify if the intent progressed into the IP changing the car and thus giving the drivers an unfair advantage.



The biggest loser in all of this might end up being Hamilton. Should he win the WDC, there will always be doubt cast on his title. If he had no part in these actions, and the car gained no advantage from the information, then both him and Alonso should at least know that they won their titles fairly.

To me there is a huge difference between the intent and the action. Conspiring to do something does not make one guilty of that crime.

[rabf1]

Since Coughlin has been villified, fired, labeled as a "rogue employee" and will probably be barred from F1, de la rosa and alonso should be in the same boat.

[Garry Walker]

LOL. Alonso and Pedro are 2 sad losers who should lose their superlicense for this and at least for 5 years.
Good job Fernando, you cost your team 100 millions :rotflmao:

[rabf1]

"Conspiring to do something does not make one guilty of that crime."

Actually, yes it does.

[Hondo]

Yeah, I do.

The car passed the test as it existed at the time and was not an illegal car. Once the test was changed and the car could no longer pass, the car was changed.

Similar to Honda's fuel tank problems a few years ago, The fuel tank set up had been looked at and declared legal. Other teams were using similar systems. Honda got in a bind when they said the tank was empty prior to inspection, and it wasn't.

[fandango]

I think he meant aspiring, rather than conspiring.

[Bagwan]

Has anyone gone over to check the gas mixture in the McLaren Bridgestones yet ?

If they saw the set-up , whether they decided to use it or not is irrelevent .
That they knew how a rival would need to adjust to different circumstances at different tracks would easily let them focus on the rivals weaknesses .

Simply , no fair .


Markabilly seems to have it right in the end , but , with the clumsy way this was all handled , that season that was to be preserved in tatters as a team is shown to be beyond doubt guilty , but left to battle with a rival's illegal info still in hand .

It is sad that a sport we all love is carved into pieces by greed .

I'm frankly disgusted .

[Osella]

There is speculation in the ruling i.e. the content of the phone calls between NS & MC are not known BUT what has been released by the FIA shows that PDLR in particular discussed Ferrari data with Coughlan in full knowledge that it had come from Stepney. To what extent it was then used, and what effect that had on performance, is not clear, but it was discussed. PDLR then shared some of that with Alonso.

My first reaction on reading the FIA information was that Coughlan, PDLR and Alonso have landed McLaren right in it. I still don't believe that Ron Dennis had knowledge of this, and his statements reflect that, but that doesn't alter the point that members of his team had access to, and discussed, Ferrari data.

In the light of that, quite how Alonso can work with, and race for, the team for the remaining races of this season is beyond me, and how he (and PDLR) have escaped any sort of sanction (even given MM's immunity) is surprising to say the least.

I do believe that a more approriate punishment would have been to exclude the team - the entire team - from the whole of the 2007 season. That would be harsh on Hamilton, whose faith in Ron Dennis in particular has been obvious, but he is a member of the team as much as anyone.

Ferrari's position has been seen to be right. There was 'new evidence' and that new evidence has been crucial. I do think there are questions that remain about Nigel Stepney's role, and Ferrari's responsibility for his actions, because it remains the case that without his initial approach none of this would, or could, have happened.

That said, it seems McLaren team members sealed the fate of their team :(

:up: I totally agree with everything you have said. (and you know how infrequently that happens! ;) ) I think Ron Dennis is actually (for a change) unknowingly implicated in the whole affair, and I think perhaps he is only staying with McLaren to try and sort this out, which may very well involve a wholesale restructuring of their design, test and race teams.

It appears that the communications originally arose because Stepney was disgruntled with Ferrari promoting Mario Almondo above him (From Coughlan's High Court affadavit-
"Stepney contacted me for the first time in five years on March 1st 2007.
"He subsequently telephoned me and informed me that he was very unhappy with the direction his career was taking at Ferrari and Mr Almondo's promotion above him.)

Hardly grounds for passing on technical information and race strategy details really!

I agree that though it would have been harsh, it would have been much fairer to have excluded the whole team from the entire 2007 championship, though I am glad that McLaren's car will have to be checked (and presumable patent application dates and design drawing dates backchecked) and I hope that they are sufficiently burnt by this whole saga to appreciate that the only reason they make themselves such an easy target is because they stick their heads so far above the parapet to shout at Ferrari that it makes it that much easier for them to be shot down...

I also wonder how many people who voted on the poll that the punishment was 'too Harsh' actually voted before reading the full WMSC evidence report...?

[tinchote]

Look, we can do this all day. The fact of the matter is that there is no physical proof on the car that there was a change using the data. Whether they had it or not, they cannot prove that it was actually used. Thus, this would may ANY punishment in this case warrantless. The punishment is totally appealable based on the grounds that paper proves nothing other than there was tech data that they had. Does any of the emails say that they used them?

So, if someone gives me a tape showing intimate moments of you, it's totally ok for me to keep the tape unless I use it, isn't it? :rolleyes:

[luvracin]

Why hasnt McLaren fired alonso and de la rosa?


After reading the FIA report, I am quite frankly surprised with the actions of DelaRosa and Alonso.

They are VERY, VERY lucky to still be allowed anywhere near an F1 car.

[tinchote]

Has anyone gone over to check the gas mixture in the McLaren Bridgestones yet ?

If they saw the set-up , whether they decided to use it or not is irrelevent .
That they knew how a rival would need to adjust to different circumstances at different tracks would easily let them focus on the rivals weaknesses .

Simply , no fair .


Markabilly seems to have it right in the end , but , with the clumsy way this was all handled , that season that was to be preserved in tatters as a team is shown to be beyond doubt guilty , but left to battle with a rival's illegal info still in hand .

It is sad that a sport we all love is carved into pieces by greed .

I'm frankly disgusted .

I couldn't have said it better :mark:

[VkmSpouge]

Having read the FIA's decision I can understand why they chose to give out that particular punishment to McLaren. I think the decision to kick McLaren out of the Constructors' Championship this season is perfectly fair though I feel the fine is too large.
I can also see why the FIA didn't punish the drivers because they had effectively offered them amnesty in that letter to them requesting all relevant documents.

Overall I feel this is a reasonably fair decision by the FIA and I just hope we can get back to some racing.

[Malbec]

To me there is a huge difference between the intent and the action. Conspiring to do something does not make one guilty of that crime.

I agree with most of your post, earlier I wrote that the FIA intended to spare the drivers at least partly to maintain the show between the two McLaren drivers until the end of the season.

However I don't agree that Hamilton is the biggest loser, he has many years ahead of him in which to win championships in untainted cars. Alonso on the other hand has reduced his attractiveness to future employers quite considerably and will almost certainly not drive at McLaren again.

[Osella]

Since Coughlin has been villified, fired, labeled as a "rogue employee" and will probably be barred from F1, de la rosa and alonso should be in the same boat.

Hmm, I'm not sure of this one, but I am inclined to agree. Stepney was whistle-blowing on an interpretation of the regulations by Ferrari (regarding their floor), as opposed to an actual illegal mechanism, but I don't know whether the drivers would really be aware of Article 151 (c) of the FIA's statutes regarding information from another team... However, De La Rosa actually asking Coughlan for information from Stepney is fairly obviously outside any rules, it's pretty much akin to match-fixing in the sense that at least some part of the McLaren team has inside access to what Ferrari have done and what they are going to do next (e.g. race strategy and tyre wear etc).

It is a slightly different case with Alonso, as he is just getting 3rd hand information from De La Rosa, and he did incriminate the team by submitting his emails, however, I believe that he and De La Rosa should also be fined and have their superlicenses withdrawn for a period of time. (perhaps not 5 years in Alonso's case, but it would not be an unfair punishment to suspend either of them)

There is also a big difference between taking old knowledge across (a la Newey-Red Bull) from one team to another and actually receiving up-to-the-minute information on pit stop laps, weight distribution and max speeds from another team! Bear in mind that once a designer decides to leave a team he is placed on 'Gardening leave' precisely to ensure that he/she does NOT know the latest developments from the team they are leaving.

[Bagwan]

I couldn't have said it better :mark:

Thanks , Tin .

You know , perhaps the saddest thing is that I know that I will bother to watch the remaining races , even though the very integrity of the sport , itself , is in question .
This , even though the current situation disgusts me so .

I suppose I am living proof that any pubicity is good publicity .

[fandango]

I think the e-mails between De La Rosa and Alonso, when taken alone, are not so bad. I imagine there are little tidbits shared between teams all the time in the F1 paddock, unofficially.

However, when looked at in the light of the alleged systematic exchange from Stepney to Coughlan, it reflects very badly on these drivers, if they knew the extent of it.

McLaren should be excluded, but the fine is too much. And the WDC is now tainted. Neither McLaren driver can really win a fair championship.

What seems wrong to me is the way the FIA have chosen not to adhere to standard burden-of-proof guilt/innocence when it suits them, as they have expressly said they are doing.

Extract from FIA statement:

The WMSC has full jurisdiction to apply Article 151(c) and stresses that it is not necessary for it to demonstrate that any confidential Ferrari information was directly copied by McLaren or put to direct use in the McLaren car to justify a finding that Article 151(c) was breached and/or that a penalty is merited. Nor does the WMSC need to show that any information improperly held led to any specifically identified sporting advantage, or indeed any advantage at all. Rather, the WMSC is entitled to treat possession of another team's information as an offence meriting a penalty on its own if it so chooses.

With the lack of clarity about who exactly is making these judgements, it doesn't make the FIA look like the guardians of fairplay that every sport needs.

[N. Jones]

I never said murder. I simply said "crime" do you realise that industrial espionage IS a crime?

Yes but that is not equal to violent crime. That is what it sounds like you are trying to say.

[N. Jones]

What does it matter? It is an offence in itself to have another team's data. When it was just Coughlin you could argue it was one rogue employee. But at least 5 employees have been implicated. The "team" was involved.
So, they currently are not guilty of using that info in their cars. Once everyone understands that I will be satisfied.

[N. Jones]

With respect to industrial espionage in criminal law, whether the information was used is irrelevant. Possession = guilt unless you can prove that any individual involved in the case is acting against company regulations and that the company concerned blew the whistle as soon as it learnt of the incident.

So you believe that the whole team should be not only punished but harsher than what was doled out?

[Osella]

Fandango, the trouble with extracts is that they can be taken out of context. The FIA was merely responding to a McLaren protestation that the WMSC could not legally penalise McLaren unless it could be proven in a court of law that McLaren had committed a crime. The FIA extract you quoted above was in response to:

"8.4 McLaren has made detailed submissions indicating that none of the information received enhanced the McLaren car. McLaren has suggested to the WMSC that unless "actual use" and a demonstrated and itemised performance advantage can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (i.e. to a criminal law standard of proof), the WMSC is not permitted at law to impose a penalty."

[rabf1]

McLaren has put themselves in a spot by taking the position that coughlin was a "rogue employee." It has now come out that both de la rosa and alonso were "in league" with coughlin to some degree (they knowlingly got ferrari info from him). So McLaren has to classify them as "rogue employees" too if it wants to stick to its story about coughlin. The fact that de la rosa and alonso have not been fired leads me to believe that a lot more people at mclaren were in on this. The speculation in the written opinion is that if this type of information got down into the hands of a test driver, then the engineering staff must have known about it. While that is speculation, it does seem reasonable. I have a funny feeling there won't be an appeal and mclaren will just let this die.

[71minus2]

I suggest you to move to China, freedom of speech won't bother you there! ;)

free speech is clearly p*****g you right off here though!

I think its a bad move and detrimental to the sport. The whole thing has dragged F1 through the mud when it needn't have been.

[Bagwan]

Pino , can you put us up a new fresh poll , to reflect people's feelings about this , now that this new evidence has been revealed ?

[Daniel]

Yes but that is not equal to violent crime. That is what it sounds like you are trying to say.
What does it matter whether the crime is violent or not? I never said anything about violence. Please stick to my post and the point I'm trying to make which is Ferrari gets no benefit from getting their data leaked to other teams.

[Daniel]

free speech is clearly p*****g you right off here though!

I think its a bad move and detrimental to the sport. The whole thing has dragged F1 through the mud when it needn't have been.
So they should have rewarded the cheating by letting them off just for the sake of the sport? Good stuff.

So, they currently are not guilty of using that info in their cars. Once everyone understands that I will be satisfied.


So you don't think that knowing the strategy of the Scuderia for the Bahrain race, as confirmed in the FIA WMSC statement, doesn't count as using info on a Mclaren car?

It seems pretty cut and dried to me that by knowing what strategy your rival is running, then it's possible to set up your own car to counter that. Mclaren knew that Ferrari were fuelled to a specific lap in final qualifying, which makes it very easy to fuel your own car lighter and adjust your strategy.

That alone makes Mclaren guilty as charged.

[Malbec]

So you believe that the whole team should be not only punished but harsher than what was doled out?

You're mixing two different things, whether McLaren were guilty of a crime and whether they received appropriate punishment.

If they were guilty of industrial espionage then it clearly follows that they would receive punishment appropriately greater than, say, being banned for a few races or a largely symbolic fine.

In the real world people who are guilty of industrial espionage (and I repeat that possession = guilt) are usually given custodial sentences, ie go to prison.

In that context perhaps you might reconsider whether being excluded from the championship is particularly harsh.

Perhaps you should look up the GM/Volkswagen Lopez case from a few years back where a senior GM exec was accused of industrial espionage. GM won a multi hundred million dollar settlement from VW and Lopez faced jail in the US but was 'saved' as he was crippled in a serious car accident in Spain and therefore couldn't be extradited to the US on medical grounds. That illustrates how seriously industrial espionage is viewed.

[Hondo]

I would still have some respect for Ferrari if they issued a statement saying "We know McLaren didn't get anything useful out of all this but this was the only way we could win the Constructors Championship this year so we made a big deal of the whole thing. If we thought for a minute that McLaren had actually gained anything, we would have pushed just as hard to have the drivers stripped of their points also."

[DonnieDarco]

Right, so Ron admits he tipped off the FIA about the emails between Pedro and Alonso, to keep them informed. Why then, did both these two escape punishment???

This is starting to make less and less sense. Those two definitely knew where the info was coming from, Hamilton probably did too. Yet they are still allowed to compete?!?

[ioan]

Why are you debating where the info came from? We know where it came from. There is a trail.....

Some people tend to deny everything when it doesn't suit their POV, really everything.

[ioan]

Why hasnt McLaren fired alonso and de la rosa?

And destroy the WDC fight that Bernie and Max managed to keep alive with their Machiavellian plan?! Nah!

Ron tipped the FIA about the emails and they promised him to keep the drivers (read Lewis Hamilton here) on the WDC fight! Now he has to play their game to the end! ;)

[Tazio]

So you don't think that knowing the strategy of the Scuderia for the Bahrain race, as confirmed in the FIA WMSC statement, doesn't count as using info on a Mclaren car?

It seems pretty cut and dried to me that by knowing what strategy your rival is running, then it's possible to set up your own car to counter that.

That alone makes Mclaren guilty as charged.
Lets's not forget Oz' also!!

“He’s the same person who told us in Australia that Kimi [Raikkonen, the Ferrari driver] was stopping in lap 18. He’s very friendly with Mike Coughlan, our chief designer and he told him that.”

Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2007



http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1e2c92b4-62e7-11dc-b3ad-0000779fd2ac.html

[ioan]

From what I can tell, Caughlin got info from Stepney. Caughlin then provided some general information to de la rosa who passed some things on to alonso. de la rosa and alonso talked about incorporating some of the information into mclaren simulations and tests but it never happened.

How do you know it never happened? :rolleyes:

[Tazio]

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40673
Ron, you would love us to believe that.
However, that's Bull$h!*

[ioan]

They will never appeal this verdict, they might face that 2 years exclusion if they do it.
And they know it!

[tinchote]

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=40673
Ron, you would love us to believe that.
However, that's Bull$h!*


It's amazing, he kept saying that no else in his organization knew about all this, and now he says he was the one giving the tip to FIA??? :eek:

[THE_LIBERATOR]

They will never appeal this verdict, they might face that 2 years exclusion if they do it.
And they know it!Almost certainly with the kind of bias they are facing.

[airshifter]

I agree with most of your post, earlier I wrote that the FIA intended to spare the drivers at least partly to maintain the show between the two McLaren drivers until the end of the season.

However I don't agree that Hamilton is the biggest loser, he has many years ahead of him in which to win championships in untainted cars. Alonso on the other hand has reduced his attractiveness to future employers quite considerably and will almost certainly not drive at McLaren again.

You are probably correct about Hamiltons long term future. I would simply hate seeing a rookie win a WDC and have it tainted. Should Alonso win it, I would have no respect for him regardless as he has displayed a willingness to cheat whether they did benefit or not.

I also wonder if the FIA would disapprove should McLaren do their own investigation and/or involve authorities, along with possible charges against those involved. For the team as a whole it would probably be the best thing, both protecting their future reputation and possibly recovering money from employees that caused them to lose it. But it would also keep the issue in the public eye, which might anger the FIA.

[ICKE]

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has said he campaigned for McLaren to be fined, the Briton admitting the Woking-based squad came close to exclusion from the championship for two years.

"It came very close to McLaren being thrown out, it really was a genuine possibility," Ecclestone told the BBC on Friday.

"A few of us sort of battled on and campaigned for the fine instead," he added.

McLaren were stripped of all their constructors' championship points and fined $100 million in the spy controversy hearing on Thursday.

Ecclestone said the possibility of an exclusion was "much closer than everybody says", and the Briton admitted that would have been bad for the sport.

"Formula One is now more open than it has ever been because the threat is definitely there now if any team is helping anyone else," added Ecclestone. "Even if it is a smaller team than McLaren, they're gone, without any hesitation.

"The alternative to the fine was worse, being excluded from the championship for two years. It was much closer than everybody says it was.

"It really would have been bad news. McLaren would have lost more than they have been fined, if they'd have not been able to keep going."

[ioan]

Almost certainly with the kind of bias they are facing.

Bias? Towards them maybe!
I bet Ron still can't believe he managed to salvage a championship title this season. He's in debt to Bernie and Max for the rest of his life over this affair.

He just plays the game and thinks about appeals to make it credible.

[markabilly]

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has said he campaigned for McLaren to be fined, the Briton admitting the Woking-based squad came close to exclusion from the championship for two years.

"It came very close to McLaren being thrown out, it really was a genuine possibility," Ecclestone told the BBC on Friday.

"A few of us sort of battled on and campaigned for the fine instead," he added.

McLaren were stripped of all their constructors' championship points and fined $100 million in the spy controversy hearing on Thursday.

Ecclestone said the possibility of an exclusion was "much closer than everybody says", and the Briton admitted that would have been bad for the sport.

"Formula One is now more open than it has ever been because the threat is definitely there now if any team is helping anyone else," added Ecclestone. "Even if it is a smaller team than McLaren, they're gone, without any hesitation.

"The alternative to the fine was worse, being excluded from the championship for two years. It was much closer than everybody says it was.

"It really would have been bad news. McLaren would have lost more than they have been fined, if they'd have not been able to keep going."


Yeah right Bernie, you are so kind to mac...this comes from a man who would eat his own children if it would put money in his pocket :rolleyes:

there were not banned because the new cash cow hamster would have been ruined. And that would take money out of bernie's pocket. period. :D

[ioan]

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has said he campaigned for McLaren to be fined, the Briton admitting the Woking-based squad came close to exclusion from the championship for two years.

"It came very close to McLaren being thrown out, it really was a genuine possibility," Ecclestone told the BBC on Friday.

"A few of us sort of battled on and campaigned for the fine instead," he added.

McLaren were stripped of all their constructors' championship points and fined $100 million in the spy controversy hearing on Thursday.

Ecclestone said the possibility of an exclusion was "much closer than everybody says", and the Briton admitted that would have been bad for the sport.

"Formula One is now more open than it has ever been because the threat is definitely there now if any team is helping anyone else," added Ecclestone. "Even if it is a smaller team than McLaren, they're gone, without any hesitation.

"The alternative to the fine was worse, being excluded from the championship for two years. It was much closer than everybody says it was.

"It really would have been bad news. McLaren would have lost more than they have been fined, if they'd have not been able to keep going."

It was always clear that he rescued Hamy from the exclusion for the sake of his own bottomless pockets. :\

[markabilly]

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has said he campaigned for McLaren to be fined, the Briton admitting the Woking-based squad came close to exclusion from the championship for two years.


"A few of us sort of battled on and campaigned for the fine instead," he added.

going."

battled ???What battle???

the whole show took less than a day...whatever happened was predetermined.....one does not really examine all this evidence and hear testimony in depth on a subject like this and then have 22 people agree in a few hours....more evidence of a joke

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Bias? Towards them maybe!
I bet Ron still can't believe he managed to salvage a championship title this season. He's in debt to Bernie and Max for the rest of his life over this affair.

He just plays the game and thinks about appeals to make it credible.Hey, whatever you say
:dozey:

[mstillhere]

Bias? Towards them maybe!
I bet Ron still can't believe he managed to salvage a championship title this season. He's in debt to Bernie and Max for the rest of his life over this affair.

He just plays the game and thinks about appeals to make it credible.

I totally agree.

[Tazio]

I totally agree.
Ron, from this point forward your life IS a lie

[Hondo]

Ron, get out of F1, now, today, and go to CHAMP car. That'll really woof Max and Bernies cookies not to mention allowing the Ferrari drivers to obtain a championship the same and only way their bosses could.

[Hondo]

Regardless of who, what, where, how, why, and when, it will be at least 10 years before the dust starts to settle on this one.

[Sandfly]

This is NASCAR at its best. Look at all the media! And you still have the drivers battle in place.

This really stinks of manipulation. If a Mcclaren guy takes a photo of the Ferrari wing while the covers are off does that make him guilty of some crime. If a ferrari guy gives him that picture of the wing does that mean he should go tell the FIA. What if the McClaren guy looks at the pic and sys "what a ridiculous wing" and files the picture in the can and in no way uses the information is he quilty of something. This makes my head hurt.

To think that there is such good racing in CC, and such money is wasted on this F1 BS is really frustrating.

[jso1985]

How do you know it never happened? :rolleyes:

how you know it happened?

what do we know about this? according to the WMSC decision I just finished reading:
McLaren had illegal possesion of Ferrari's IP? yes
McLaren attempted to us ite and take advantage? yes
McLaren used it? can't be proven

so as there's a difference between conspiring to murder someone, attempting to murder someone and murdering someone, the three of them are crimes, but the punishment for them are different.

so basically it can't be proven McLaren did the "full" cheat.

So I think the punishment was according to the situation, maybe Alonso should have been stripped of his points also but allowed to keep competing due his inmunity(ie not been punished with losing his super license)

As a McLaren fan I'm clearly disgusted my favourite team did such thing and I'm finding it a bit hard to cheer them now, but unless its proven they used the data and took advantage I think the punishment was according to the situation

[veeten]

In all of this, I look at the two individuals that very well could've stopped this from happening in the first place...

Luca & Jean.

My only question, in all of this entire fiasco, is simply... how did Stepney manage to get out of Modena with those documents, without anyone noticing, until they just happen to come into McLaren-Mercedes' posession?

Where's the intellectual property protection?... any workplace oversight?... how about non-disclosure agreements? It just bothers me that he was able to leave with these items and, basically, put them out there for the 'highest bidder' to come and claim.

Looks to me that Ferrari is trying to use the FIA as an 'after-the-fact' security force and put all the pressure on M-M so as not to expose the evident lack of preventative measures to stop employees, past & present, from doing what Stepney did.

The last thing that de Montezmolo (sp?) & Todt want to be in Paris for is when the principle two individuals at the center of this are called to testify, and just as the area of questioning gets round to this. It could get pretty embarrassing. :erm:

[markabilly]

how you know it happened?

what do we know about this? according to the WMSC decision I just finished reading:
McLaren had illegal possesion of Ferrari's IP? yes
McLaren attempted to us ite and take advantage? yes
McLaren used it? can't be proven

so as there's a difference between conspiring to murder someone, attempting to murder someone and murdering someone, the three of them are crimes, but the punishment for them are different.

so basically it can't be proven McLaren did the "full" cheat.

So I think the punishment was according to the situation, maybe Alonso should have been stripped of his points also but allowed to keep competing due his inmunity(ie not been punished with losing his super license)

As a McLaren fan I'm clearly disgusted my favourite team did such thing and I'm finding it a bit hard to cheer them now, but unless its proven they used the data and took advantage I think the punishment was according to the situation

Guys you better look again at the whole statement and evidence---there is no question that ferrari data was used to enable the team to use the bridgestones to their max. The gas to stop blistering,weight distribution and so forth.

Further, if Fa used the data, knowing or unknowingly, LH also profited and won races because of it. Arguing there is no proof of benefit or use is nonsense.

Whose was the greater offense? Claerly FA compared to LH--if the blackmail stuff is true, then FA ought to resume his quest for a third WDC as soon as he finishes at least ten years in prison (and this comes from a former semi-FA fan who would rather see him win over kimi and massa).

But LH profited in a number of races with the shared data, and no doubt won partially as a result.

And when FA said he was going to "stop sharing", I assumed he meant his own data....did not know he really meant the Ferrari data :eek: :eek:

[Osella]

they were not banned because the new cash cow hamster would have been ruined. And that would take money out of bernie's pocket. period. :D

Exactly. Which is why I hope that the FIA technical delegates are going to have access to the Ferrari dossier, and all of McLaren's budget and technical development programmes from March until February to decide whether they have used Ferrari info on next year's car.

[Valve Bounce]

The posts and arguments and counter arguments are getting sillier by the hour here. And guys are rehashing tripe to try to get their points across. Why don't you just say you either like or dislike Ron Dennis, and leave it at that?

[Myy06]

Okay, how is it that Hamilton knew nothing of this at all? And how is it that RD, being in charge of a team as powerful, and maybe only equaled by Ferrari, how does he not know what his engineers are doing?

And does this info not get over to Hamilton in some way since way back in March?

:confused:

[pino]

Pino , can you put us up a new fresh poll , to reflect people's feelings about this , now that this new evidence has been revealed ?

I don't mind doing that, but what options should I put ?

[Malbec]

In all of this, I look at the two individuals that very well could've stopped this from happening in the first place...

Luca & Jean.

My only question, in all of this entire fiasco, is simply... how did Stepney manage to get out of Modena with those documents, without anyone noticing, until they just happen to come into McLaren-Mercedes' posession?

Where's the intellectual property protection?... any workplace oversight?... how about non-disclosure agreements? It just bothers me that he was able to leave with these items and, basically, put them out there for the 'highest bidder' to come and claim.

Looks to me that Ferrari is trying to use the FIA as an 'after-the-fact' security force and put all the pressure on M-M so as not to expose the evident lack of preventative measures to stop employees, past & present, from doing what Stepney did.

The last thing that de Montezmolo (sp?) & Todt want to be in Paris for is when the principle two individuals at the center of this are called to testify, and just as the area of questioning gets round to this. It could get pretty embarrassing. :erm:

I think you're right. Clearly Ferrari are the victims of industrial espionage but they have to ask themselves some pretty difficult questions. How did one man get so much information ranging from the design and plans of specific parts to data from testing through to car setup and race strategy? How did he then get this out of the factory and to the UK without being stopped?

Also, given that two ex-Ferrari employees have already managed to take company information away from the team, why was nothing done to improve security after the previous debacle?

And perhaps most importantly of all, how did they upset one employee who has been such a central figure in the renaissance at Ferrari so much that he would risk his own career to ensure that his team was damaged?

Pointing the finger at McLaren helps take away the attention from this aspect of things but if Ferrari want to carry on as a top team themselves they have quite a few things they need to address.

[Daniel]

I think you're right. Clearly Ferrari are the victims of industrial espionage but they have to ask themselves some pretty difficult questions. How did one man get so much information ranging from the design and plans of specific parts to data from testing through to car setup and race strategy? How did he then get this out of the factory and to the UK without being stopped?

Also, given that two ex-Ferrari employees have already managed to take company information away from the team, why was nothing done to improve security after the previous debacle?

And perhaps most importantly of all, how did they upset one employee who has been such a central figure in the renaissance at Ferrari so much that he would risk his own career to ensure that his team was damaged?

Pointing the finger at McLaren helps take away the attention from this aspect of things but if Ferrari want to carry on as a top team themselves they have quite a few things they need to address.
Yes but those documents could easily fit onto a flash drive and be smuggled out without Ferrari knowing. I somehow doubt that Ferrari let employees loose with 780 page dossiers :) Hey Nigel where you goin' with that big dossier in your hand :D

If it was me and I was working in the IT department at Ferrari the PC's wouldn't have USB ports or the users wouldn't have priveliges to connect storage devices........

It may very well be that a tiny little 4gb flash drive may be at the heart of this :D

[ArrowsFA1]

I think the e-mails between De La Rosa and Alonso, when taken alone, are not so bad. I imagine there are little tidbits shared between teams all the time in the F1 paddock, unofficially.
It does make you wonder :dozey: It's somewhat surprising that Alonso, new to McLaren, appears to have been so ready to consider information that clearly came from another team. Did he never question why or how there was access to this information? Did he never question the legality of it? Did he not think it odd?!!

If the answer is 'no' to all of those questions then perhaps this kind of thing is common practice. I don't doubt that teams sit and discuss other teams strategy, development, design etc etc.

We know that it's common practice for personel to move from team to team, and they obviously take knowledge with them. While the evidence in this case says McLaren crossed a line, the line itself is a little blurred when it comes to the whole issue. Quite how the FIA intend to police this area in future I have no idea, particularly has they had no role in the Toyota/Ferrari data case a while ago.

[Malbec]

Yes but those documents could easily fit onto a flash drive and be smuggled out without Ferrari knowing. I somehow doubt that Ferrari let employees loose with 780 page dossiers :) Hey Nigel where you goin' with that big dossier in your hand :D

If it was me and I was working in the IT department at Ferrari the PC's wouldn't have USB ports or the users wouldn't have priveliges to connect storage devices........

It may very well be that a tiny little 4gb flash drive may be at the heart of this :D

If the information was taken out on a flash drive none of this would have happened because noone outside McLaren and Stepney would have ever found out about it.

This whole saga came to light because Coughlan wanted to transfer the documents he had received from Stepney into digital format and the shop that did the work informed Ferrari. Hence the reports about Coughlan having a 780 page dossier.

Clearly Stepney took the documents out bit by bit but that reveals yet another flaw in Ferrari security. How was he allowed to come by those documents AND take them out. Why weren't they missed if they were originals and not copies?

It looks as if security at Ferrari is a little slack, something they need to look at.

[Mark]

Having thought about it I think the best punishment would have been total exclusion from 2007 (not 2008)

[Malbec]

It does make you wonder :dozey: It's somewhat surprising that Alonso, new to McLaren, appears to have been so ready to consider information that clearly came from another team. Did he never question why or how there was access to this information? Did he never question the legality of it? Did he not think it odd?!!

If the answer is 'no' to all of those questions then perhaps this kind of thing is common practice. I don't doubt that teams sit and discuss other teams strategy, development, design etc etc.

We know that it's common practice for personel to move from team to team, and they obviously take knowledge with them. While the evidence in this case says McLaren crossed a line, the line itself is a little blurred when it comes to the whole issue. Quite how the FIA intend to police this area in future I have no idea, particularly has they had no role in the Toyota/Ferrari data case a while ago.

It also looks as if the drivers took an active part in the whole process, certainly there's an email from PdlR which appears to request more information from Stepney via Coughlan, ie they weren't simple recipients but were working through the technical information and trying to fill in the blanks were the received data wasn't sufficient.

This makes the exemption of the drivers look even more bizarre....

[Viktory]

I just hope Ferrari (and thus, the sport) win this weekend and the coming races. If they grab the drivers championsip in front of the cheating McLaren's, against the odds, it will be one of the happiest days of my life.

Oh and to those that say this is the only way Ferrari can win a championship. well I guess McLaren's only chance to win a championship is to cheat by using confidential Ferrari info.

Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has said he campaigned for McLaren to be fined, the Briton admitting the Woking-based squad came close to exclusion from the championship for two years.

"It came very close to McLaren being thrown out, it really was a genuine possibility," Ecclestone told the BBC on Friday.

"A few of us sort of battled on and campaigned for the fine instead," he added.

McLaren were stripped of all their constructors' championship points and fined $100 million in the spy controversy hearing on Thursday.

Ecclestone said the possibility of an exclusion was "much closer than everybody says", and the Briton admitted that would have been bad for the sport.

"Formula One is now more open than it has ever been because the threat is definitely there now if any team is helping anyone else," added Ecclestone. "Even if it is a smaller team than McLaren, they're gone, without any hesitation.

"The alternative to the fine was worse, being excluded from the championship for two years. It was much closer than everybody says it was.

"It really would have been bad news. McLaren would have lost more than they have been fined, if they'd have not been able to keep going."

Does anyone else see this as Bernie telling Dennis not to bother appealing the WMSC decision?

By the sound of it, Mclaren are very, very lucky to still be racing. Going back to the WMSC, who according to Bernie were on the brink of banning Mclaren, would be a pretty stupid thing to do (mind you, having seen the Dennis logic in action this summer, perhaps that is exactly what he will do since he's been pretty stupid all summer).

The best thing I believe for Mclaren now is to go and win the drivers championship, let the Hamilton-factor take the headlines (even if he doesn't win it the story is still a good one) and never, ever mention 'Stepney-Gate' again.

*As a Tifosi it pained me to type "The best thing I believe for Mclaren now is to go and win the drivers championship", but in case anyone was wondering I had an email from De La Rosa this morning asking me what to do now!

[N. Jones]

Crimenetly folks! It's 6:00am where I live! Can't you all give this a rest for a day or two?! :laugh:

[pino]

Having thought about it I think the best punishment would have been total exclusion from 2007 (not 2008)

That's exactly what Mosley has just told Ital TV right now, the punishment isn't satisfactory said, but judges decided that way...

[markabilly]

That's exactly what Mosley has just told Ital TV right now, the punishment isn't satisfactory said, but judges decided that way...
Of course he would....have you not read and studied your Machiavelli (or as my old government professor said "markabilly")...Max has!!!

While my old professor could never say the name right, he opened my eyes to what goes on in politics of governments, corporations and other large groups...where it is successful, where it is a failure...where it has been mis-construed...that most very successful politicans are using those same principles even though they have no idea who Machiavelli was and unsuccessful politicans are failing to properly use those principles

and in the last 500 hundred years, some have explained it better or with more clarity or with better examples from politics of the last few years....but none have really said nothing new after Machiavelli

Bottom line he may have even argued to the group on Thursday that you must ban totally from 2007, he already knew exactly what he did with that grant of immunity and what would happen before he sent the letter:

That it would be impossible to ban Mac and not take FA and LH out of the driver's championship for this year....and that would not have been good for the health of the organization's revenue...so stop that possibility with the grant

And under no circumstance can max even afford to imply this is what he was doing and why he did it......

and indeed, if RD had already confessed to Max as to what was going on...then what difference would it make if FA never turned over any emails?? None as to the objective judge, but critical for the Machiavelli plan to work well, but then LH never turned over anything, so why should he have immunity???Well duuuh go back to WHY this unnecessary grant occurred.....)

:vader:

[Ranger]

That's exactly what Mosley has just told Ital TV right now, the punishment isn't satisfactory said, but judges decided that way...
Bah! Look, I'm a McLaren fan, but it's extremely naive to think Mosley didn't have a substantial influence in the final outcome of the matter.

[markabilly]

Bah! Look, I'm a McLaren fan, but it's extremely naive to think Mosley didn't have a substantial influence in the final outcome of the matter.
Substantial influence?

that is an understatement...when he sent the immunity letter days before the hearing, he determined the result :D

all that was left was just window dressing, smoke and mirrors in that hearing that was much TOO SHORT to be much of anything...it should not be that way, people should complain, but that was all it is

[Ranger]

Substantial influence?

that is an understatement...when he sent the immunity letter days before the hearing, he determined the result :D

all that was left was just window dressing, smoke and mirrors in that hearing that was much TOO SHORT to be much of anything...it should not be that way, people should complain, but that was all it is

You're right. The Autosport top story at the moment is "Mosley questions Dennis' integrity". THAT I find funny... Mosley has not only had the court process in hand this time around, but has also orchestrated blatant cheating in the past (1994 - ask ioan for the link as it is a good one).

Despite the fine I think McLaren are somewhat fortunate. Now its time to get on with the season.

[Malbec]

You're right. The Autosport top story at the moment is "Mosley questions Dennis' integrity". THAT I find funny... Mosley has not only had the court process in hand this time around, but has also orchestrated blatant cheating in the past (1994 - ask ioan for the link as it is a good one).

What we saw today is typical Max though, wait for the judgement to come out and make a few nasty comments questioning the character of people he doesn't like that can't be substantiated but are difficult to disprove too. Has he ever been known to strike above the belt?

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Max Mosley must go. He's got too much of his father in him.

[AndyRAC]

Max Mosley must go. He's got too much of his father in him.

Agree, he's had the job for far too long now. He's ruined both F1 and WRC into sad shadows of their formers selves.

[Bagwan]

Substantial influence?

that is an understatement...when he sent the immunity letter days before the hearing, he determined the result :D

all that was left was just window dressing, smoke and mirrors in that hearing that was much TOO SHORT to be much of anything...it should not be that way, people should complain, but that was all it is


But , Machiabilly , the smoke and mirrors aren't exactly covering up the emperor's little spotty behind now , are they ?
All and sundry are seeing this as exactly what it is .

[Somebody]

Anyone catch Martin Brundle saying in Belgian GP quali commentary that him (and the other ITV people) could and usually did pick up most of what de la Rosa's messages involved just from "Paddock gossip"?

[Daniel]

Anyone catch Martin Brundle saying in Belgian GP quali commentary that him (and the other ITV people) could and usually did pick up most of what de la Rosa's messages involved just from "Paddock gossip"?
Yes but the info came from Coughlan and guess what Coughlan was in posession of and who he was in communication with?

Dossier and Stepney.

[Daika]

Shouldn't Mclaren take actions againsy Alonso and de la Rosa? I find it rather strange that they are out of the loop. Yes they have immunity from the FIA, but the FIA doesn't have a say when Mclaren as a employer kick out their employees. Perhaps Alonso have sponsers backing him but de la Rosa is just a average driver.

Did the email exchange between them took place in Spanish or English? Been wondering about that for some time.

[Hazell B]

I'm getting a bit confused by who knew what and who told what to whom, now :mark:

Somehow, I'm not so sure everybody involved knew everything that was passed about. It's as if people told some secrets to one person, others to another and so on, then they all kept quiet until this whole thing blew up.

Does anyone know a time table of what's been passed on from the past three months or so? It might help sort out when information was passed and to whom (at least in my mind :p : ) so Ron Dennis and co's actions will become clearer. As it is, I can't work out why Dennis would ring Mosley and say Alonso had information, when he knew he also had dodgy information of his own :confused:

[truefan72]

Shouldn't Mclaren take actions againsy Alonso and de la Rosa? I find it rather strange that they are out of the loop. Yes they have immunity from the FIA, but the FIA doesn't have a say when Mclaren as a employer kick out their employees. Perhaps Alonso have sponsers backing him but de la Rosa is just a average driver.

Did the email exchange between them took place in Spanish or English? Been wondering about that for some time.

Unfortunately, Mosley has threatened McClaren that if they took action against Alonso that they will have to answer to the FIA in Paris. effectively condemning the team to employ that selfish traitor who by his actions has cost the team an immese amount of money, WCC points, potential sponsorship, 2008 travel budget, etc all becuase he couldn beat LH fair and square on the track... I wonder how the team can even stomoach his presence, and furthermore since they are being forced too by the FIA and their emperor Mosley.

[truefan72]

This whole affair which was comlpetely blown out of proportiuon by self serving and foolhardy parties on all sides has put the sport in more disrepute than anything McClaren has done, which in reality goes on ALL THE TIME in F1. All the top teams have assigned engineers and people with the sole responsibilty as to "investigationg" the competitors cars. Which includes, devising scaled model specs of the cars, assessing all the varying componenets and generally figuring out very precisely what xactly their competitors are doing. Being offered a dossier of your competitors technical specs from a disgruntled former employer freeely and willingly, as well as not even using that information to better your car, is far far far away from stealing the material and blatantly cheating with it to iomprove yor car.

Too me, it is far worse when a guy like Newey, Brawn, etc leaves one team and goes to another with all the data and knowledge "in his head" ( along with taking along some fellow enginners) to another and that team completely benefits from the entire R&D from the former employer.

these are my final thoughts on this matter, now lets see what tomorrows race brings

[Hondo]

Final thoughts also:

The average F1 team nowadays is far too large for any team principal to be involved in every aspect at every level.

It would be virtually impossible to prevent any criminal activity as far IP theft and sharing is concerned and the best that can be hoped for is an immediate reaction once it is discovered. Once Todt became aware, he reacted. From what I have seen and read so far, when Dennis became aware, he reacted.

Like Todt, it would seem that Dennis also reacted to newer details as they became known.

Personal feeling is that unless it can be proven that Dennis, at any time, tried to conceal McLaren involvement from the FIA, McLaren has been punished way too harshly. Go ahead and strip away enough constructor points to let Ferrari have the constructors championship and smack them with a $5 million dollar fine, if you must, but $100 million and all that other stuff is ridiculous.

It says much that Ferrari cares enough for the constructor's championship that it is willing to kick and scream until McLaren is forced out of the running but doesn't seem to feel their drivers were damaged enough to also fight for their championship. Thats shallow and sorry.

It boils down to what you believe Dennis knew, and when did he know it? Thats your decision to make. I think Dennis (believe me, no Dennis or McLaren fan) did the right things as he learned of more and more of the situation.

In a twisted sort of way, it's almost like Ron is getting all the blame for Ferrari's dog getting loose, jumping Ron's fence, biting Ron's kids and giving them rabies. Theres not much Ron can do about that until someone complains to Ron that a dog got in the yard and bit them.

Max and Bernie (soon to be the football king) posturing about how lucky McLaren is to still be in F1. I see it the other way around. F1 is damned lucky McLaren doesn't just pick their toys up and go elsewhere. Bernie, how many other teams you got on the grid with F1 track record, pedigree, and tradition of McLaren? Williams and Ferrari and thats about it. You really think you can sell the others, with the possible exception of BMW, as the "pinnacle of motorsports"? Honda, Toyota, and Renault are all manufacturers that drift in and out as it suits them and their market. At the time McLaren signed Alonso, Renault was making noises that they weren't sure if they were going to continue in F1 or not. That may have had something to do with his going to McLaren. I wonder how many will fall for your line of crap about McLaren being "lucky" to still be allowed to play in your sandbox?

[markabilly]

Final thoughts also:

The average F1 team nowadays is far too large for any team principal to be involved in every aspect at every level.

It would be virtually impossible to prevent any criminal activity as far IP theft and sharing is concerned and the best that can be hoped for is an immediate reaction once it is discovered. Once Todt became aware, he reacted. From what I have seen and read so far, when Dennis became aware, he reacted.

Like Todt, it would seem that Dennis also reacted to newer details as they became known.

Personal feeling is that unless it can be proven that Dennis, at any time, tried to conceal McLaren involvement from the FIA, McLaren has been punished way too harshly. Go ahead and strip away enough constructor points to let Ferrari have the constructors championship and smack them with a $5 million dollar fine, if you must, but $100 million and all that other stuff is ridiculous.

It says much that Ferrari cares enough for the constructor's championship that it is willing to kick and scream until McLaren is forced out of the running but doesn't seem to feel their drivers were damaged enough to also fight for their championship. Thats shallow and sorry.

It boils down to what you believe Dennis knew, and when did he know it? Thats your decision to make. I think Dennis (believe me, no Dennis or McLaren fan) did the right things as he learned of more and more of the situation.

In a twisted sort of way, it's almost like Ron is getting all the blame for Ferrari's dog getting loose, jumping Ron's fence, biting Ron's kids and giving them rabies. Theres not much Ron can do about that until someone complains to Ron that a dog got in the yard and bit them.

Max and Bernie (soon to be the football king) posturing about how lucky McLaren is to still be in F1. I see it the other way around. F1 is damned lucky McLaren doesn't just pick their toys up and go elsewhere. Bernie, how many other teams you got on the grid with F1 track record, pedigree, and tradition of McLaren? Williams and Ferrari and thats about it. You really think you can sell the others, with the possible exception of BMW, as the "pinnacle of motorsports"? Honda, Toyota, and Renault are all manufacturers that drift in and out as it suits them and their market. At the time McLaren signed Alonso, Renault was making noises that they weren't sure if they were going to continue in F1 or not. That may have had something to do with his going to McLaren. I wonder how many will fall for your line of crap about McLaren being "lucky" to still be allowed to play in your sandbox?


There you go again arguing logic, common sense, intelligence and thinking it was some sort of mistake, stupidity or miscarriage of justice, and making all sorts of valid points,,,,Understand that in the world of Machiavelli, this ruling and result is absolute perfection, and as people make arguments like this, while others forget all about it, cause they want to go racing,,,....it will have worked perfectly :vader:

Deception is necessary.......

[AJP]

http://sportal.com.au/default.aspx/motorsport-news-display/fia-backs-alonso-in-mclaren-stoush-35678

"Shortly after, however, Alonso's manager, Luis Garcia, returned to apologise on behalf of the 26-year-old and retract everything that had been said."

As soon as Alonso has left F1, the sport will get better.
He is a backstabbing, lying, cheat.
He doesn't deserve the accolade of F1 Champ.

If Ron Dennis was such a bad person, he would have tried to sweep Alonso's threats and knowlegde of the Dosier under the carpet.

But no, he went straight to Max and told him what had happened.

How the hell did Alonso get immunity??

This is the strangest, most confusing load of Bulls#$t I have ever come across.

Max is now threatening McLaren to make sure they treat poor Alonso well till the end of the year...screw that.

let him run out of fuel and lets all laugh at him when he has a dummy spit on the side of the track and then hold a press conference telling everyone how much more he "really" knows about the IP of Ferrari.

I'm starting to hate this sport.

arrgghhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Where is Ferrari's penalty for allowing this to happen in the first bloody place...

arrgghhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;)

[pino]

[url]

Where is Ferrari's penalty for allowing this to happen in the first bloody place...

arrgghhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

;)

Are you blaming Ferrari for all this ? :s

[Daniel]

Are you blaming Ferrari for all this ? :s
Apparently it's always the fault of the victim of the crime :confused:

Are you blaming Ferrari for all this ? :s

Some people, it seems, would rather punish the victim than accept that Mclaren are cheats.

They really need to accept that Mclaren are cheats. It's official.

[AJP]

Pino and Daniel,

Do you both think that Ferrari should have no penalty what so ever for letting this sort of information out of their sight.
If McLaren get punished for receiving it, which is fair, ferrari should be punished for letting it go.
It's pretty simple really.
It was as deliberate of Stepney releasing the Ip as it was deliberate of Coughlan accepting it.

That's what I think, if you don't like it...too bad

[AJP]

Some people, it seems, would rather punish the victim than accept that Mclaren are cheats.

They really need to accept that Mclaren are cheats. It's official.

Tamburello,

where have I said that some members of McLaren are not cheats?????

[Daniel]

Pino and Daniel,

Do you both think that Ferrari should have no penalty what so ever for letting this sort of information out of their sight.
If McLaren get punished for receiving it, which is fair, ferrari should be punished for letting it go.
It's pretty simple really.
It was as deliberate of Stepney releasing the Ip as it was deliberate of Coughlan accepting it.

That's what I think, if you don't like it...too bad
Do you think a little granny who gets beaten up in her home should be punished? Ferrari have still lost in this as did the granny. There is no possible reason Ferrari could have for intentionally letting this out. It's a ludicrous point to be making.

[Hondo]

Do you think a little granny who gets beaten up in her home should be punished? Ferrari have still lost in this as did the granny. There is no possible reason Ferrari could have for intentionally letting this out. It's a ludicrous point to be making.

No it's not. Actually, Stepney, while in the active employment of Ferrari, broke Rule 151c and started the whole damn ball rolling. I think it's fair that since Stepney did this while an employee, Todt is obligated to withdrawl Ferrari from the 2007 Championship, that they weren't going to win anyway even though McLaren lost it's Hungary points. Makes no difference that Todt didn't know it was happening, he is the captain of the ship and the buck stops with him and his employee broke the rules.

[Daniel]

That's preposterous. Stepney was acting on his own. If the rest of the team didn't benefit and it was just him then how is it the team's fault. Is Jean Todt supposed to ask everyone "are you cheating?" and expect an honest answer?

[Hondo]

That's preposterous. Stepney was acting on his own. If the rest of the team didn't benefit and it was just him then how is it the team's fault. Is Jean Todt supposed to ask everyone "are you cheating?" and expect an honest answer?

It's not perposterous at all. I dare say, with as much proof as is required by anyone for anything around here, that Coughlan only used the data from Stepney because the better McLaren looked, the better Coughlan's CV would look while shopping for a new team. Whether Stepney acted alone is still speculation at this point. And yes, as many think Ron Dennis was supposed to ask everyone "are you cheating?" and expect an honest answer, it's equally fair to expect Todt to be out there wandering around asking "Have you broken any sporting regulations today?"

Ferrari's employee brought the sport into disrepute with his fraudulent conduct as per 151 c of the sporting regulations. Ferrari should be punished.

If you want to argue that both Todt and Dennis did all they could once they did find out, I'll agree with you.

The punishment is outrageous.

[AJP]

Stepney was acting on his own.
How do you know??

[Malbec]

It says much that Ferrari cares enough for the constructor's championship that it is willing to kick and scream until McLaren is forced out of the running but doesn't seem to feel their drivers were damaged enough to also fight for their championship. Thats shallow and sorry.

Ferrari have always had the philosophy that a championship won in the courtroom is equal to that won on track. Its a matter of culture. Few other people feel that way. I don't think Ferrari and many of its supporters see its 'victory' this season as being shallow or sorry.

I also don't agree that Ferrari should be penalised. In the real world they were caught out by a rogue employee. They acted exactly as they should have by suspending him once they found out what he had done and demonstrated that he was a rogue employee.

You'll find that corporate victims of industrial espionage don't tend to get punished. I think the key word is 'victim'.

[Daika]

Unfortunately, Mosley has threatened McClaren that if they took action against Alonso that they will have to answer to the FIA in Paris. effectively condemning the team to employ that selfish traitor who by his actions has cost the team an immese amount of money, WCC points, potential sponsorship, 2008 travel budget, etc all becuase he couldn beat LH fair and square on the track... I wonder how the team can even stomoach his presence, and furthermore since they are being forced too by the FIA and their emperor Mosley.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070916002309.shtml

"If they do anything wrong against Alonso, they will have to answer to us in Paris and we will do what is necessary," Mosley is quoted as saying by the Italian daily La Gazzetta dello Sport.

Appears you are right. How can this be justice?

[pino]

No it's not. Actually, Stepney, while in the active employment of Ferrari, broke Rule 151c and started the whole damn ball rolling. I think it's fair that since Stepney did this while an employee, Todt is obligated to withdrawl Ferrari from the 2007 Championship, that they weren't going to win anyway even though McLaren lost it's Hungary points. Makes no difference that Todt didn't know it was happening, he is the captain of the ship and the buck stops with him and his employee broke the rules.

You are not serious...are you ? :eek:

[Daika]

the last few comments are funny, shifting the blame entirely on ferrari. I'm waiting that someone gonna exposed emails from Schumacher to Alonso, dating back from the 2006 championship. Alonso knew that Schumacher blow up his engine.

[AJP]

Daika,
I hope you're not implying that I have shifted the blame entirely on to Ferrari..
I just believe that they should be punished to some extent aswell...

[AJP]

Do you think a little granny who gets beaten up in her home should be punished? Ferrari have still lost in this as did the granny. There is no possible reason Ferrari could have for intentionally letting this out. It's a ludicrous point to be making.

great comparison Daniel

[Hawkmoon]

I can't understand how people can say that Ferrari should be punished. It's absolute rubbish.

Ferrari were in no way responsible for the actions of Stepney. They had know way of knowing that Stepney would breach the trust between employee and employer simply because he got passed over for a promotion. Throw a hissy fit and sulk perhaps. Steal 780 pages of data? No way. Therefore there was no way they could have prevented it.

The same goes for McLaren until the point that they chose not to inform the FIA of what they had received. That's the very key difference between the two teams. McLaren could have prevented this by turning over the documents as soon as Coughlan notified them that he had them. Instead they waited until the copy guy tipped off Ferrari 3 months later.

[ArrowsFA1]

the last few comments are funny, shifting the blame entirely on ferrari.
They're as funny as the accusation that this whole situation has been engineered to ensure that Lewis Hamilton wins the 2007 WDC.

[Daniel]

But Ferrari don't benefit from McLaren cheating. McLaren do though. Why did Ron grass Alonso up? If he had the evidence he didn't need the drivers to come forward. Net result McLaren still do well out of it.

[pino]

I can't understand how people can say that Ferrari should be punished.....



Same here...some posts in this thread shocks me :s

[BeansBeansBeans]

Ferrari shouldn't be punished as the illegal actions of Nigel Stepney were to the detriment of the team, whereas the illegal actions of Mike Coughlan were to McLaren's benefit.

Both Stepney and Coughlan have a lot to answer for, and I hope that both are punished accordingly.

[Hondo]

You are not serious...are you ? :eek:


I am serious from the aspect of Ron Dennis is McLaren and McLaren is Ron Dennis. Jon Todt is not now, nor will ever be Ferrari. Until a few more generations die off, Ol' man Enzo and the spirit with which he did things will always be Ferrari. There is not a doubt in my mind that Ron Dennis, once he became aware of the situation, did everything he could to cooperate with the FIA and continued to do so as new information came to light. It is no more ridiculous to expect Ron Dennis to know absolutely everything thats going on in his organization anymore than it is to expect the same from Todt. But for those that argue that Dennis is guilty for the action of his employee, the same should apply to Todt, or any other team manager. The penalty that McLaren received was way out of line considering the level of cooperation the FIA received from McLaren based on the information Dennis thought they had. As new information came to light, Dennis turned that over to the FIA also. To penalize Ron Dennis like that, for a situation he was unaware of, is like killing one of his children in front of him. That penalty goes far beyond setting an example. I hope McLaren appeals it. If the the situation were reversed, Enzo wouldn't roll over for it either.

Pino, I was a die-hard Ferrari fan for years and years including the long dry spell. I have endured the Schumacher allegations. But this time, Ferrari is being chickensh!t far beyond what even I can stand. They have done more to shoot themselves in the foot with driver mistakes and reliabilty problems than Stepney did with set up information. Maybe they still hold a grudge over their movable floor. Fact is, if the FIA had had a way to test the floor while the car was running at speed, it would have been found to be illegal.

Lest you think I'm a big Ron Dennis fan, I'm not. I was a Nichael Andretti fan and while he didn't do a lot to help himself fit in at McLaren, he also didn't get anywhere near the testing mileage he was promised going into the game and Honda bailed out of McLaren leaving them with a rather doggy engine. So what Michael found when he got there was not what he was told would be there. He more or less had to learn to drive an F1 car on the racetrack during races. Towards the end of his brief stint, he was getting the hang of it, qualifiing closer and closer to Senna and ending his career with a podium finish. If you remember that year, you'll remember that Senna had a race to race series of contracts for the season. He wouldn't sign one for the entire season. Meanwhile, Mika was racking up all those testing miles and looking good and it was no secret that Ron was doing everything he could to get Michael to give it up so he could put Mika in the car. Michael finally called it quits, Mika got the car, and even Senna later on said Michael got a raw deal from Ron. So, no I'm no fan of Ron.

And, anyway you slice it, Stepney is guilty of violating sporting regulation 151c, which according to the witch burners around here, means the entire team is guilty. I'm not saying McLaren shouldn't be punished, I'm saying both teams ought to be punished, or some latitude and a sense of justice should prevail in McLaren's case. Basically you have 3 individuals in McLaren that gained from the knowledge. Coughlans CV to Honda and other teams, Pedro, and Alonso. They gave 2 of them, the only ones that really benefitted from it, immunity. This isn't fair, it isn't justice, it's a vindictive witch hunt.

[Hondo]

Ferrari have always had the philosophy that a championship won in the courtroom is equal to that won on track. Its a matter of culture. Few other people feel that way. I don't think Ferrari and many of its supporters see its 'victory' this season as being shallow or sorry.

I also don't agree that Ferrari should be penalised. In the real world they were caught out by a rogue employee. They acted exactly as they should have by suspending him once they found out what he had done and demonstrated that he was a rogue employee.

You'll find that corporate victims of industrial espionage don't tend to get punished. I think the key word is 'victim'.

We are not talking real world here nor are we talking about any countries statutory laws. We are talking about the FIA sporting regulations that all teams agree to abide by. You can call it what you want in the real world (where McLaren would never have gotten a $100 million fine over something this silly) but in Max's world, Stepney violated sporting regulation 151c and that has yet to be addressed. As that is really what started all of this and it's not Ferrari's first time at bat for losing data, yeah I think it should be addressed.

[Hondo]

I can't understand how people can say that Ferrari should be punished. It's absolute rubbish.

Ferrari were in no way responsible for the actions of Stepney. They had know way of knowing that Stepney would breach the trust between employee and employer simply because he got passed over for a promotion. Throw a hissy fit and sulk perhaps. Steal 780 pages of data? No way. Therefore there was no way they could have prevented it.

The same goes for McLaren until the point that they chose not to inform the FIA of what they had received. That's the very key difference between the two teams. McLaren could have prevented this by turning over the documents as soon as Coughlan notified them that he had them. Instead they waited until the copy guy tipped off Ferrari 3 months later.

When did Coughlan notify Ron Dennis he had the documents? Also, bear in mind, the actual, if any, real damage done was in the exchange of set up information by phone and email. It had nothing to do with the documents.

[Daika]

Daika,
I hope you're not implying that I have shifted the blame entirely on to Ferrari..
I just believe that they should be punished to some extent aswell...

I'm not. I understand your reasoning that Ferrari hasn't kept their own house in order.

[Hondo]

Ferrari shouldn't be punished as the illegal actions of Nigel Stepney were to the detriment of the team, whereas the illegal actions of Mike Coughlan were to McLaren's benefit.

Both Stepney and Coughlan have a lot to answer for, and I hope that both are punished accordingly.

Sporting regulation 151c does not require that you assist a team or damage a team, it requires you by fraudulent action, to bring the sport into disrepute.

That fits both Stepney and Coughlan and Pedro and Alonso quite well.

[DonnieDarco]

But Ferrari don't benefit from McLaren cheating. McLaren do though. Why did Ron grass Alonso up? If he had the evidence he didn't need the drivers to come forward. Net result McLaren still do well out of it.

He grassed Alonso up because Alonso was trying to blackmail him. Alonso was in it up to his neck, but decided the best way out of it was to try and wangle what he wanted out of Ron. The papers seem divided over exactly what that was, some say he was after number one status within the team, others that he wanted to be released from his contract.

Now we have that idiot Max saying he will be watching Mac carefully to make sure Alonso isn't punished, as "He did exactly the right thing."

Alonso deserves to be put out to pasture indefinitely. Not only did he know all about the leaked information all along, he tried to use it to his own advantage.

He better hope Renault still want him, because I sincerely doubt Ferrari would touch him with a ten foot bargepole and Maclaren I feel sure cannot wait to be shot of him.

[Daniel]

Sporting regulation 151c does not require that you assist a team or damage a team, it requires you by fraudulent action, to bring the sport into disrepute.

That fits both Stepney and Coughlan and Pedro and Alonso quite well.
Stop reading the rules to the letter. It's clear to everyone that Ferrari hasn't benefited from this :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

He grassed Alonso up because Alonso was trying to blackmail him. Alonso was in it up to his neck, but decided the best way out of it was to try and wangle what he wanted out of Ron. The papers seem divided over exactly what that was, some say he was after number one status within the team, others that he wanted to be released from his contract.

Now we have that idiot Max saying he will be watching Mac carefully to make sure Alonso isn't punished, as "He did exactly the right thing."

Alonso deserves to be put out to pasture indefinitely. Not only did he know all about the leaked information all along, he tried to use it to his own advantage.

He better hope Renault still want him, because I sincerely doubt Ferrari would touch him with a ten foot bargepole and Maclaren I feel sure cannot wait to be shot of him.
My point is that if someone tried to blackmail you, I bet you would make sure they didn't get immunity :)

I agree in regards to Alonso though :) Caroline threatened to watch the F1 at her mum's because I keep calling him a cheat at every opportunity :p

[ShiftingGears]

Stop reading the rules to the letter.

...Got any better ideas?

[Valve Bounce]

This is getting to be laughable and it is still going round and round, getting more silly by the day.

[Hondo]

Stop reading the rules to the letter. It's clear to everyone that Ferrari hasn't benefited from this :rolleyes:

Thats an answer? "Yes. we know what the rules say, but stop reading them to the letter." Thats the lamest thing I've ever seen you put here.

Okay then, McLaren broke no rules because although they were required to notify the FIA, there was no specifically defined time period to do so and they just hadn't gotten around to it yet.

As stated previously, sporting regulation 151c requires neither benefit nor loss, merely disrepute.

It chould be clear to everyone that Ferrari has indeed benefitted from this. They are going to be gifted a Constructor's World Championship along with it's benefits and cash rewards. Only a complete idiot would fail to see that Ferrari is benefitting from this. They sure wouldn't have won the championship this year.

[Daniel]

...Got any better ideas?
Yes I do. Interpreting the rules in the spirit in which they were written. That's why a team can get anything from a slap on the wrist to a 2 year ban for having an illegal part on a car in an FIA championship. There is a spirit in which rules are created and people on this forum seem too able to interpret them to the letter and as we know laws are NEVER interpreted to the letter. Now stop rabitting on about 151c and deal with the punishments that were or were not given out.

[Hondo]

This is getting to be laughable and it is still going round and round, getting more silly by the day.

It pleases me to know I'm assisting you with your entertainment.

[Hondo]

Yes I do. Interpreting the rules in the spirit in which they were written. That's why a team can get anything from a slap on the wrist to a 2 year ban for having an illegal part on a car in an FIA championship. There is a spirit in which rules are created and people on this forum seem too able to interpret them to the letter and as we know laws are NEVER interpreted to the letter. Now stop rabitting on about 151c and deal with the punishments that were or were not given out.

Okay, what in your opinion, what did Ron Dennis personally do or have knowledge of, that should cause him to lose his constructors points, his Hungary points, and $100 million dollars? Make no mistake about it, this is not about punishing McLarenF1, this is about punishing Ron Dennis and taking some wind out of his sails.

[Daniel]

Okay, what in your opinion, what did Ron Dennis personally do or have knowledge of, that should cause him to lose his constructors points, his Hungary points, and $100 million dollars? Make no mistake about it, this is not about punishing McLarenF1, this is about punishing Ron Dennis and taking some wind out of his sails.
What are you on about? You were talking about Ferrari and now you're talking about McLaren. Do try and have a point old chap!

[Hondo]

What are you on about? You were talking about Ferrari and now you're talking about McLaren. Do try and have a point old chap!

I was dealing with the punishment aspect and asking you a question.

[ioan]

Once Todt became aware, he reacted. From what I have seen and read so far, when Dennis became aware, he reacted.

Only that Ron's reaction was the wrong one. they did a one day internal investigation, only suspended Coughlan, and than decided to blame Ferrari while he employed the crying technique coupled with lies. :rolleyes:



Go ahead and strip away enough constructor points to let Ferrari have the constructors championship and smack them with a $5 million dollar fine, if you must, but $100 million and all that other stuff is ridiculous.

Throwing them out of the 2007 and 2008 championship as really they should have done would have cost them everything not just $100 million!

There are places in the world where people lose their life for stealing, yet you consider $100 million to much for a team that has a turnover of $450 million a year and one of the biggest car manufacturers as their associate!


It says much that Ferrari cares enough for the constructor's championship that it is willing to kick and scream until McLaren is forced out of the running but doesn't seem to feel their drivers were damaged enough to also fight for their championship. Thats shallow and sorry.

Shallow and sorry is when someone doesn't appreciate others need for truth. :rolleyes:


In a twisted sort of way, it's almost like Ron is getting all the blame for Ferrari's dog getting loose, jumping Ron's fence, biting Ron's kids and giving them rabies. Theres not much Ron can do about that until someone complains to Ron that a dog got in the yard and bit them.

The worse comparison up to date in this history. It difficult for someone not to seee that a dog is bitting his kids in his own garden, for a few months!!!


Max and Bernie (soon to be the football king) posturing about how lucky McLaren is to still be in F1.

Well, they are right. And Ron should really kiss Bernie's feet for he saved his team.

[Hondo]

No he shouldn't. Ron can take his team to other pastures.

[Valve Bounce]

I just wonder who allerted the FIA about the e-mails.

[Valve Bounce]

It pleases me to know I'm assisting you with your entertainment.


Ta!! let's go to the chat room for the start of the GP

[ioan]

How do you know??

There is no proof to the contrary.

[ioan]

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070916002309.shtml

"If they do anything wrong against Alonso, they will have to answer to us in Paris and we will do what is necessary," Mosley is quoted as saying by the Italian daily La Gazzetta dello Sport.

Appears you are right. How can this be justice?

They didn't impose a punishment on the McLaren drivers because Bernie wanted the money cow to win the championship against his 2 X WDC team mate, they don't want McLaren to destroy that.

[markabilly]

My point is that if someone tried to blackmail you, I bet you would make sure they didn't get immunity :)

Yes that is the real joke of this whole affair.....LH benefits in earlier races from FA setups that FA gained by knowingly and deliberately participating in the stealing of secrets, FA then blackmails RD by turning himself in as a thief(again blackmail is just as criminal as stealing, maybe even worse, since something for nothing is easy temptation, but blackmailing is far more than that)

Conclusion: RD gets punished for it while FA and LH get immunity and maybe even a wdc for FA or LH as a result......

Yes, Maxie is right, FA "did the right thing" by stealing and blackmailing RD


:vader:

[ioan]

I am serious from the aspect of Ron Dennis is McLaren and McLaren is Ron Dennis. Jon Todt is not now, nor will ever be Ferrari.

Maybe I should remind you that Bruce McLaren didn't change his name into Ron Dennis, at least not to my knowledge. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Okay, what in your opinion, what did Ron Dennis personally do or have knowledge of, that should cause him to lose his constructors points, his Hungary points, and $100 million dollars? Make no mistake about it, this is not about punishing McLarenF1, this is about punishing Ron Dennis and taking some wind out of his sails.

They want to punish Ron?! What for?
The only thing they might want to punish him is because he lied to the for 3 months. But than they have the right to do so if that's what he did!

They could have thrown the team out of F1 altogether if they wanted to destroy Ron but they didn't!

Besides not being able to see that Max and Bernie actually protected McLaren and implicitly Ron, you go and say they should have punished Ferrari!

[ioan]

No he shouldn't. Ron can take his team to other pastures.

Good riddance than!
No need for cheaters that are destroying F1's already shabby image.

[fandango]

The FIA are punishing McLaren, not Ron Dennis. They believe that the e-mails are only the tip of the iceberg, because the decisions purported to have been made by De La Rosa couldn't have only been made by him. This shows that there were more people involved in this in McLaren. In July McLaren denied this was the case, after supposedly having made an internal investigation. Ron's high and mighty sense of correct behaviour doesn't seem to extend to people in his team. How can he not now say it's clear more people in McLaren were holding things from him - or were they?

Another question to ponder: Why did Ron Dennis tell the world that he wanted to get closure on this, as he supposedly did after his row with FA in Hungary, and then in the same breath go on to say it was he who notified the FIA, thus sparking off another extended media frenzy? Why was it necessary for him to say that, when really it would have made more sense to say nothing more on the subject?

I'm actually comng round to Alonso's side, I have to admit. Better to say nothing...

[N. Jones]

Good riddance than!
No need for cheaters that are destroying F1's already shabby image.

Every team cheats. McLaren just got caught.

Hell - all sports team cheat one way or another. Sadly it is the nature of things I guess... money over integrity. :(

[markabilly]

They didn't impose a punishment on the McLaren drivers because Bernie wanted the money cow to win the championship against his 2 X WDC team mate, they don't want McLaren to destroy that.


As taught by Machiavelli:

the only acceptable end (goal) is the stabilization and health of the state. In this case the end is to preserve the wealth of F1 and bernie, max and so forth.
Personal vendattas have no place as an acceptable end....while goal may justify the means, the means can never be permitted to destroy the goal of preserving the health of the organization, and personal vendattas by definition, have the goal of hurting people rather than enhancing the health of the organization

It is sometimes necessary to be cruel to preserve that state, but one must do it without appearing to be so. To do this requires a scapegoat, and it is essential that the appearance of the actions were forced by evil actions of others and made necessary to preserve justice, and never wealth.

It is also essential to avoid the appearance of greed on the part of the state, although that greed in terms of enhancing the health of the state is the essential end or goal of any proper action.

Distraction and scapegoats serve that purpose where people argue over apparent merits that have provided the excuse of the necessity of the actions, not the real reason for the actions

So MAx must say FA did the right thing, otherwise Maxie did the wrong thing, and then the real reason starts to come out...and the real reason is absolute poison for the organization

Example of what really happened but the FIA/maxie and bernie will never say:

"Due to adverse and extreme bad publicity caused by the actions of a ferrari employee and some actions of some Mac employees in aiding and abetting his conduct, the situation is threatening the health of Bernie' pocketbook and the FIA."

"As a result, a 100 million dollar fine and stripping WCC point from MAc as swift and effective punishment is imposed to make Ferrari shut up, enhnace our image and prevent the loss of sponsor income, but as the WCC is relatively meaningless as far as the general public is concerned, we can not let that effect the WDC"

" The public has shown a great deal of infatuation with LH, and the possibility of his future in enhancing the health of the organization is beyond question. This infatuation must not be destroyed or sidetracked. Therefore it is necessary to grant immunity to both FA and LH to ensure the competition for the wdc remains interesting to the public and profitable to us. It will be necessary to praise and protect FA until the last race to keep the interest at a high level."

"Further permitting the image of FA to become TOO publicily tainted, likewise also taints LH and the WDC, causing the public to lose interest in the wdc, and impinging upon our income, but a certain taint on FA will be necessary to ensure and heighten interest and to give people more reason to support LH and others."

"However, during or after the last race, RD may dispose of FA as he deems fit, after he has taken appropriate action, if possible, to ensure the crown goes to LH, subject to a possible exception that should FA's usefulness be determined to be valuable beyond that race, his disposal can not conflict with the goal of ensuring the health of the organization."

"Finally RD is hereby designated as official scapegoat because he has had a history of being disloyal to the health of the organization and threatening its very existence with his breakaway ideas. Then there is the present mess. He is now on final probation, and should he give further reason to cause a threat to the health of the organization, he will be banned forever more"

"For further details as to our rationale for those who do not wish to read Machiavelli, please watch Godfather I "

"As to the ultimate outcome of this season, please watch A Knight's Tale. It was our hope that the role of the good brit would be played by Button of Jensen, but his Honda horse has stumbled and come up lame, so the role goes to LH. The blind father shall be played by RD. The good prince will be played by Maxie, the page who talks too much shall be played by bernie, and of course the evil swarthy knight who would stop at nothing, shall be played by FA"

"This is the secret first draft written days before the hearing.........., however for obvious reasons this draft can never be viewed by the public and we must give them plenty of technical reasons, as best we can, to keep them distracted from the truth"

:vader:

[Tazio]

As taught by Machiavelli:

the only acceptable end (goal) is the stabilization and health of the state. In this case the end is to preserve the wealth of F1 and bernie, max and so forth.
Personal vendattas have no place as an acceptable end....while goal may justify the means, the means can never be permitted to destroy the goal of preserving the health of the organization, and personal vendattas by definition, have the goal of hurting people rather than enhancing the health of the organization

It is sometimes necessary to be cruel to preserve that state, but one must do it without appearing to be so. To do this requires a scapegoat, and it is essential that the appearance of the actions were forced by evil actions of others and made necessary to preserve justice, and never wealth.

It is also essential to avoid the appearance of greed on the part of the state, although that greed in terms of enhancing the health of the state is the essential end or goal of any proper action.

Distraction and scapegoats serve that purpose where people argue over apparent merits that have provided the excuse of the necessity of the actions, not the real reason for the actions


So MAx must say FA did the right thing, otherwise Maxie did the wrong thing, and then the real reason starts to come out...and the real reason is absolute poison for the organization

Example of what really happened but the FIA/maxie and bernie will never say:

"Due to adverse and extreme bad publicity caused by the actions of a ferrari employee and some actions of some Mac employees in aiding and abetting his conduct, the situation is threatening the health of Bernie' pocketbook and the FIA."

"As a result, a 100 million dollar fine and stripping WCC point from MAc as swift and effective punishment is imposed to make Ferrari shut up, enhnace our image and prevent the loss of sponsor income, but as the WCC is relatively meaningless as far as the general public is concerned, we can not let that effect the WDC"

" The public has shown a great deal of infatuation with LH, and the possibility of his future in enhancing the health of the organization is beyond question. This infatuation must not be destroyed or sidetracked. Therefore it is necessary to grant immunity to both FA and LH to ensure the competition for the wdc remains interesting to the public and profitable to us. It will be necessary to praise and protect FA until the last race to keep the interest at a high level."

"Further permitting the image of FA to become TOO publicily tainted, likewise also taints LH and the WDC, causing the public to lose interest in the wdc, and impinging upon our income, but a certain taint on FA will be necessary to ensure and heighten interest and to give people more reason to support LH and others."

"However, during or after the last race, RD may dispose of FA as he deems fit, after he has taken appropriate action, if possible, to ensure the crown goes to LH, subject to a possible exception that should FA's usefulness be determined to be valuable beyond that race, his disposal can not conflict with the goal of ensuring the health of the organization."

"Finally RD is hereby designated as official scapegoat because he has had a history of being disloyal to the health of the organization and threatening its very existence with his breakaway ideas. Then there is the present mess. He is now on final probation, and should he give further reason to cause a threat to the health of the organization, he will be banned forever more"

"For further details as to our rationale for those who do not wish to read Machiavelli, please watch Godfather I "

"As to the ultimate outcome of this season, please watch A Knight's Tale. It was our hope that the role of the good brit would be played by Button of Jensen, but his Honda horse has stumbled and come up lame, so the role goes to LH. The blind father shall be played by RD. The good prince will be played by Maxie, the page who talks too much shall be played by bernie, and of course the evil swarthy knight who would stop at nothing, shall be played by FA"

Now that is the secret first draft written days before the hearing..........

:vader:
And the "hot babe" of mixed ethnicity will be played by simply combining all the women lew has been, and will be consorting with this season!

[Robinho]

still unsure where i stand on this one now the dust has begun to settle.

McLaren rightly have been found guilty, they had the information and clearly, to some extent, were using it - the loss of constructors points seems fair.

the drivers remain unpenalised, at first i'd say fair, after all the cars have not been proved to have any Ferrari parts on it, so no competitive advantage gained there, but the team clearly were seeking and advantage by using the setup information etc.

to my mind this would be a minor issue in isolation, it is widely believed that info like this passes up and down the pitlane all the time, although perhaps not in such quantity or obtained the same way, but coupled with the rest of the Stepney-Coughlan data flow it is worthy of the constructors sanction at least, personally i'm happy that the drivers title fight has been left largely unscathed.

should PDL and FA remain with the team - i'm unsure, i'd love to know what has gone on behind closed doors, but it seems that at least Alonso had been left to continue his title charge, i'm surprised that RD is letting this happen, but it says a lot that they are seemingly being left by the team to fight it out, maybe Ron and Alonso will become closer through this and stay with the team next year ;)

as for Ron, i stioll believe that he was right in most of what he has said, that he didn't know the extent of the issue, and once he did, he reported it directly to the FIA, maybe this was a face saving exercise, i'm inclined to believe it was more than that.

as for Stepney, surely his time wil come in the criminal courts, if it was indeed him who started this whoe mess i hope he gets the punishment he deserves, and takes coughlan with him, i do feel that perhaps there is more to this than we know now, perhaps more than we ever will, time will tell - and for Ferraris part, it clearly wasn't their fault, and although they have indirectly gained insomuch as they now have the WCC title, i don't believe they will be as satisfied as if they'd won it on track - i still want to belive that the spirit of Enzo still runs through the team and that racing is in the blood, i have my doubts but for me to still have any spark for Ferrari i need this to be true. some people are caling for Ferrari sanctions, i don't think this is fair, although by implication with Stepney they are perhaps guilty of bringing the sport into disrepute i don't think and punishment would be necessary.

finally, for the conspiracy theorists, i think that notion that the whole outcome was designed to suit the money men and keep the cash cow that is the championsip battle alive unsavoury to say the least, i might be wrong but i still want to belive that the sport is more fair than it isn't.

one final question - where has the money gone? will the FIA keep the fine? will they invest it in Green initiatives or give it to charity? or to boost their own coffers, in which case i'd be highly critical of the value of the fine

[ioan]

one final question - where has the money gone? will the FIA keep the fine? will they invest it in Green initiatives or give it to charity? or to boost their own coffers, in which case i'd be highly critical of the value of the fine

half of it will be distributed between the F1 teams and half between the ASN's to help upcoming young talents, at least according to Mosley. It seems that the teams will have the last word on this.

[Robinho]

half of it will be distributed between the F1 teams and half between the ASN's to help upcoming young talents, at least according to Mosley. It seems that the teams will have the last word on this.

ok, thanks for that, i assume the money will be shared equally down the grid?

[Hazell B]

Rob, I think the money's like so much cash in business - just figures on paper that don't really exist as heaps of notes. It's therefore not available to spend as such, instead it just becomes absorbed in a business and helps ease some other outgoing at a later date. Plus, the fine is from cash yet to be earned by the team, so it's not even being paid yet.

Those saying Ferrari didn't benefit from all this ... you get that they won the Championship, yes? ;) While I'm not so sure about them being fined, I am sure Ferrari called the police. That means they knew full well the FIA couldn't just sweep this one under the carpet while a very public police case was going on. They knew it would force the FIA's hand to make a disgrace of Ron Dennis and his Championship leading team. They knew it was their best bet at winning this season.

In short, Ferrari didn't see this through just for the goodness of the sport.

[AJP]

Stop reading the rules to the letter. It's clear to everyone that Ferrari hasn't benefited from this :rolleyes:

not quite true..they just won the WCC!

[Daniel]

So better to let cheaters win? Ferrari were the best team who didn't cheat. At least to our knowledge of course

[Hazell B]

No Daniel, but as you well know they all swap information already. Ferrari just went public in a pretty harsh way on this one (something I can understand and agree with to some point) knowing they'd get a certain result in all probability.

Their legal team will have spent a good deal of time mulling it over before the police were called in - so they knew the outcome that was most likely. Winning.

[Osella]

He grassed Alonso up because Alonso was trying to blackmail him. Alonso was in it up to his neck, but decided the best way out of it was to try and wangle what he wanted out of Ron. The papers seem divided over exactly what that was, some say he was after number one status within the team, others that he wanted to be released from his contract.

Now we have that idiot Max saying he will be watching Mac carefully to make sure Alonso isn't punished, as "He did exactly the right thing."

Alonso deserves to be put out to pasture indefinitely. Not only did he know all about the leaked information all along, he tried to use it to his own advantage.

He better hope Renault still want him, because I sincerely doubt Ferrari would touch him with a ten foot bargepole and Maclaren I feel sure cannot wait to be shot of him.


:up: I agree entirely, but add De La Rosa and Coughlan and Stepney to that list!

[Osella]

Okay, what in your opinion, what did Ron Dennis personally do or have knowledge of, that should cause him to lose his constructors points, his Hungary points, and $100 million dollars? Make no mistake about it, this is not about punishing McLarenF1, this is about punishing Ron Dennis and taking some wind out of his sails.

But Ron Dennis will not be personally losing $100 million dollars..
The fine is minus the TV revenue, so that takes it down by about $65 Million (Estimated), then there is the fact that Mercedes owns 50% of the team, so in all probability they will cough up 50% of the fine, leaving McLaren (Bahrain, Dennis and Ojjeh together) to pay the remaining 15-16 Million between them, and you can bet that Lewis Hamilton's level of publicity means that they can squeeze most if not all of that out of theis sponsors on the basis of the increased exposure the team has received.

[markabilly]

He grassed Alonso up because Alonso was trying to blackmail him. Alonso was in it up to his neck, but decided the best way out of it was to try and wangle what he wanted out of Ron. The papers seem divided over exactly what that was, some say he was after number one status within the team, others that he wanted to be released from his contract.

Now we have that idiot Max saying he will be watching Mac carefully to make sure Alonso isn't punished, as "He did exactly the right thing."

Alonso deserves to be put out to pasture indefinitely. Not only did he know all about the leaked information all along, he tried to use it to his own advantage.

He better hope Renault still want him, because I sincerely doubt Ferrari would touch him with a ten foot bargepole and Maclaren I feel sure cannot wait to be shot of him.


That is a most interesting thought---the Max statement that "he did exactly the right thing"

Let us see, the right thing is that once he realized that the data was being illicitly obtained, he took appropriate action...he immediately notified Maxi (immediately being some 5 months later....) and of course never took advantage of it to extort money and other benefits from RD

But Rd is different he refused to bribe FA and called the bluff and Maxie....so he was wrong

Yeah right,
Under max's defintion of "doing exactly the right thing":

1) FA took repeated advantage of the "info"

2) Fa never voluntarily disclosed any of this except to extort special privileges from RD

3) out of fear of losing, competition or whatever, he quit sharing with LH

4) Out of fear of losing certain benefits gained from the use of the information, and trying to avoid penalties on himself only, he took the immunity offer and then disclosed some information.....so he could keep his illicit benefits.....


This is an obvious cover-up of a crime, and Max's qualifies as being an accessory after the fact to the extortion by trying to hide it.....to say nothing of the obvious role in trying to immunize the behavior.....perhaps those Italian prosecutors will not be so interested in preserving the health of FA, and just think, a wdc who is indicted for his actions in winning the crown.....and LH benefitted as much as FA in these illicit actions.....do not think for a moment that he did not know what was going on...

How can anyone be a fan of such so-called competition? Anyone who says let us forget and go racing, is just as quilty as NS, MC. FA, Maxie and Bernie.....

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you.....

[Malbec]

in Max's world, Stepney violated sporting regulation 151c and that has yet to be addressed.

But it will be.

There will be a meeting later on this season where Coughlan and Stepney will be asked to explain their actions in these affairs. If found 'guilty' they can be excluded from further employment by any company involved in FIA regulated motorsports.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's clear to everyone that Ferrari hasn't benefited from this :rolleyes:
Well they did win the WCC on Sunday. Not that the case and that victory are connected of course :p :s mokin:

[Daniel]

So cheaters should win?

Well they did win the WCC on Sunday. Not that the case and that victory are connected of course :p :s mokin:

So you don't agree with the idea of justice is that those who have been wronged get redress for the foul deeds committed upon them?

Doesn't always happen but it sure is nice when it does.

[BernieD]

Quote by SGWilko: "Congrats to Ferrari on winning the championship in 2007. McLaren have been excleded from this and next years champ.

Only way for Ferrari to win I guess.

Now, if they don't manage it next year also, they really are useless......."



I would like to nominate that for the lamest (or stupidest?) statement of the year!

Ferrari has finished first or second in the WCC every year in the last decade save 2005 when they were third. None of these were via disqualification of the opponent. Do you live under a rocK?

[schmenke]

Apologies, perhaps the answer lies amongst the previous 35 pages of this thread that I haven't read ( :mark: ), but I'm trying to understand the reason why team McLaren are labeled "cheaters". What specific article(s) in either the sporting or technical regulations have they breached?

Also, why was the team stripped of all their constructor's points when, as I understand, the Ferrari documents only became available to McLaren after the first few races were run? Should they not be able to keep the points scored for the races prior to receiving the documentation?

[SGWilko]

Quote by SGWilko: "Congrats to Ferrari on winning the championship in 2007. McLaren have been excleded from this and next years champ.

Only way for Ferrari to win I guess.

Now, if they don't manage it next year also, they really are useless......."



I would like to nominate that for the lamest (or stupidest?) statement of the year!

Ferrari has finished first or second in the WCC every year in the last decade save 2005 when they were third. None of these were via disqualification of the opponent. Do you live under a rocK?

Storm in a teacup. What McLaren have done happens all the time up and down the pit lane. Wake up and smell the coffe.

Take the new Williams wing, you don't suppose Patrick emailed Sam to say we must try that McLaren wing in the wind tunnel by any chance. Nowt wrong with that.

Were all the 300 or so SMS phone calls available to be viewed (contents etc?). If not the evidence is at best circumstantial.

Oh, no I don't live under a rock. That comment really was lame......

[airshifter]

Well they did win the WCC on Sunday. Not that the case and that victory are connected of course :p :s mokin:

No, no, no.

I'm sure they were going to win regardless, by some freak change.


:laugh:

[airshifter]

Apologies, perhaps the answer lies amongst the previous 35 pages of this thread that I haven't read ( :mark: ), but I'm trying to understand the reason why team McLaren are labeled "cheaters". What specific article(s) in either the sporting or technical regulations have they breached?

Also, why was the team stripped of all their constructor's points when, as I understand, the Ferrari documents only became available to McLaren after the first few races were run? Should they not be able to keep the points scored for the races prior to receiving the documentation?

As a team, I can't agree that McLaren cheated. Some of the team took improper actions and should be punished. They won't be punished, but apparently will be rewarded for their actions.

[BeansBeansBeans]

So cheaters should win?

If you are going to call them that, can you at least use the proper word "CHEATS"?

Otherwise you'll continue to sound like a 6 year old American child :p :

[Daniel]

Tru dat :p

[Hondo]

Apologies, perhaps the answer lies amongst the previous 35 pages of this thread that I haven't read ( :mark: ), but I'm trying to understand the reason why team McLaren are labeled "cheaters". What specific article(s) in either the sporting or technical regulations have they breached?

Also, why was the team stripped of all their constructor's points when, as I understand, the Ferrari documents only became available to McLaren after the first few races were run? Should they not be able to keep the points scored for the races prior to receiving the documentation?

In an undetailed nut shell, there are still those making a bigger deal over the documents than there really is. Nothing has been brought forth to indicate McLaren got or used anything helpful from the documents. At some time after the first verdict, Alonso allegedly tried to leverage Ron by telling him he had incriminating emails that he was going to send to the FIA. Ron called his bluff and Alonso ( with good reason which became obvious later) backed down and told Ron there was nothing incriminating in the emails. Ron immediately notified Max of the emails and with out seeing them himself told Max there was nothing incriminating in them. So Max (because the drivers are never guilty in this kind of thing...) tells the drivers he wants all of the emails and tells the drivers they will have full immunity from punishment. Well, Max gets the emails and it turns out the only cheating going on in this whole deal is Pedro, Alonso, Coughlan, and Stepney sharing Ferrari set up details, weight distributions, tire data, etc. So Ron gets popped for his constructor points, pit areas, parking areas, travel money, and a $100 million dollar fine for not stopping what he didn't know was going on and Alonso gets to keep all his points towards the championship plus anymore he earns between now and the end of the season for being a fully vested and major player in what was going on.

Hope that helps.

[Hondo]

In short, some of the actual cheaters have now been rewarded while the innocent have been punished.

[fandango]

Apologies, perhaps the answer lies amongst the previous 35 pages of this thread that I haven't read ( :mark: ), but I'm trying to understand the reason why team McLaren are labeled "cheaters". What specific article(s) in either the sporting or technical regulations have they breached?

Also, why was the team stripped of all their constructor's points when, as I understand, the Ferrari documents only became available to McLaren after the first few races were run? Should they not be able to keep the points scored for the races prior to receiving the documentation?


Here's my version: Cheating was carried out by someone in McLaren. McLaren carried out an internal investigation and then hand on their heart said that it was due to a rogue employee, and nothing more. A simple troll of non-important e-mails has shown that this was not the case. This means that McLaren's high standards of fair play don't apparently apply to everyone who works in McLaren, be they rogues or not.

This has annoyed the FIA enough to cause them to make it clear that they own F1 and the normal rules for legal proof don't apply for this reason, so McLaren have been punished for possibly lying, possibly cheating, and generally being a pain in the ass with all this "we don't cheat because we are honourable" crap.

There are still big questions over why Ron Dennis has said almost everything he has said, and his apparent efforts to clear things up seem to do exactly the opposite....

[schmenke]

...Hope that helps.

No, but thanks for the effort :p :

"Cheating" implies that the team did not play by the rule book. Is there a specific article in the rule book(s) that was violated by McLaren?

[fandango]

No, but thanks for the effort :p :

"Cheating" implies that the team did not play by the rule book. Is there a specific article in the rule book(s) that was violated by McLaren?


Sporting code 151(c) or something gets mentioned a lot. But essentially, the FIA are punishing McLaren freely admitting that the actual details of their infraction are probably too difficult to prove. It's all circumstantial, but the FIA don't have to to do that innocent til proven guilty stuff. In a way (pauses for moment of reflective pathos), it's a good way to remind us all that it's only cars going round in circles.....

[Hondo]

No, but thanks for the effort :p :

"Cheating" implies that the team did not play by the rule book. Is there a specific article in the rule book(s) that was violated by McLaren?

If all else fails, the FIA and everybody else and their dog have sporting regulation 151c to fall back on. It covers just about everything you could possibly want as long as you can cover the "fraudulent" aspect.

I cannot imagine anyone wanting to buy into F1 after seeing such a draconian penalty based on what is such a minor event based upon a casual 1 day review using broad and loosely interpreted regulations. You may as well lay your fortune at Max's feet and say do what you will with it. With the manufacturers, where does it stop? Is it limited to only those personnel assigned to the race team or does it go all the way down to the guy cleaning the bathrooms at a dealership? Michelin wiped 16 cars out of an entire race and didn't get their teams hit that hard.

[Hondo]

Sporting code 151(c) or something gets mentioned a lot. But essentially, the FIA are punishing McLaren freely admitting that the actual details of their infraction are probably too difficult to prove. It's all circumstantial, but the FIA don't have to to do that innocent til proven guilty stuff. In a way (pauses for moment of reflective pathos), it's a good way to remind us all that it's only cars going round in circles.....

I can understand now why capital punishment has been done away with in the UK and Europe. You guys are ready to hang anyone for anything, regardless of how flimsy it may be.

[jjanicke]

Apologies, perhaps the answer lies amongst the previous 35 pages of this thread that I haven't read ( :mark: ), but I'm trying to understand the reason why team McLaren are labeled "cheaters". What specific article(s) in either the sporting or technical regulations have they breached?

Also, why was the team stripped of all their constructor's points when, as I understand, the Ferrari documents only became available to McLaren after the first few races were run? Should they not be able to keep the points scored for the races prior to receiving the documentation?

Because RD was not "transparent" with the WMSC. In essence the FIA says he lied about the actual extent of Mclaren people who knew of the Ferrari documentation.


No, but thanks for the effort :p :

"Cheating" implies that the team did not play by the rule book. Is there a specific article in the rule book(s) that was violated by McLaren?

You'd have to look up the specific rule, but the sanctions are because the FIA feels that RD (Mclaren) was not 100% transparent with the WMSC. That's his only violation at this point.

Reminds me of a similar "non-transparent" incident that happend at Monaco last year. Yet nothing happened other than sending the offending driver to the back of the grid, eventhough JT was involved with the "non-transparency". I guess it's simply another one of the Max-when-the-shoe-fits-in-your-favour-Mosely verdicts. The guy needs to be retired.

[Hondo]

Because RD was not "transparent" with the WMSC. In essence the FIA says he lied about the actual extent of people who knew that Mclaren had the Ferrari documentation.

Which is also based on Alonso telling Ron there was nothing incriminating in the emails, and then Ron telling Max there was nothing incriminating in the emails when Ron hadn't even seen them yet. Max thought Ron was lying to him but Ron was trusting Alonso.

For what it's worth, I would be jumping up and down about this penalty regardless of which 2 teams were involved. This penalty is personal and capricious and most of all, wrong. I would be saying that regardless of which team got hit with it. I hope the other teams are aware that notice has been served and this penalty puts them on the same thin ice for ANY infraction. The FIA is not bound by case law. You could have the exact same thing become public between BMW and Red Bull tomorrow and see Red Bull get fined $50 thousand dollars and that would be the end of it.

[BernieD]

Storm in a teacup. What McLaren have done happens all the time up and down the pit lane. Wake up and smell the coffe.

Take the new Williams wing, you don't suppose Patrick emailed Sam to say we must try that McLaren wing in the wind tunnel by any chance. Nowt wrong with that.

Were all the 300 or so SMS phone calls available to be viewed (contents etc?). If not the evidence is at best circumstantial.

Oh, no I don't live under a rock. That comment really was lame......

So winning the WCC year after year is a "storm in a tea cup" -- you must be one of the few on this forum who think that eh? What blather!

And while my statement is obviously true - Ferrari HAS won the WCC many times in the last decade... your statement is just hot air.

You have no proof of Ferrari cheating -- nor does the FIA -- hence they were NOT DQed. Were they? You are blowing smoke not facts.

Maybe you do not live under a rock -- but where every you happen to live you seem to have gathered in relatively few facts to put forward and to support your case.

The FIA reviewed the facts and MacLaren is out for two years -- that is all I need to know.

Give me a jingle if Ferrari ever has that problem will you?

[jjanicke]

So winning the WCC year after year is a "storm in a tea cup" -- you must be one of the few on this forum who think that eh? What blather!

And while my statement is obviously true - Ferrari HAS won the WCC many times in the last decade... your statement is just hot air.

You have no proof of Ferrari cheating -- nor does the FIA -- hence they were NOT DQed. Were they? You are blowing smoke not facts.

Maybe you do not live under a rock -- but where every you happen to live you seem to have gathered in relatively few facts to put forward and to support your case.

The FIA reviewed the facts and MacLaren is out for two years -- that is all I need to know.

Give me a jingle if Ferrari ever has that problem will you?

BernieD unless something has changed, Mclaren are not out for two years. And unless you have extensive knowledge of what has transpired in F1 over the past 8 years I wouldn't talk about Ferrari or the FIA not cheating. There are countless examples in the 2000's alone where FerrarIA have demonstrated partiality.

I'm not defending what Mclaren did, as I believe them to be wrong. However this isn't a simple "guilty" verdict, as one might believe.

[trumperZ06]

;) This Kangaroo Court... "verdict"

Along with the OUTRAGIOUS punishment handed out...

Wouldn't stand up in any reasonable court of law !!!

:p : The FIA's "rulings" over the last few years have been biased and self-serving... to an EXTREME !!!

This time... Max is intentionally ruining a man's reputation... and many here seem...

To gleefully enjoy this miscarrage of justice !!!

:rolleyes: Let's not get started on Mad Max's offensive history ...

it's well past the time for Mad Maxie to go !!!

:s mokin:

[akv89]

I can understand McLaren getting banned from the WCC. However, I am a bit concerned with the 100 million fine and what is can do to the McLaren employees who have had nothing to do with the controversy.

[ArrowsFA1]

Well they did win the WCC on Sunday. Not that the case and that victory are connected of course :p :s mokin:


So cheaters should win?

Not what I was saying Daniel. My comment was admittedly a cheap shot at the way in which Ferrari have won the WCC this year, but if you read one of my earlier posts you'll see that I felt a more appropriate punishment for McLaren, in the light of the FIA findings, was exclusion from both 2007 championships. No more.

All this stuff about a fine and the FIA checking their 2008 car is excessive and uneccessary IMHO.

From some of the comments here you'd believe that McLaren re-designed their car and built a Ferrari to race this year based on the information Coughlan received from Stepney :rolleyes:

Yes, Coughlan PDLR & Alonso discussed some of the information, and maybe some of it was evaluated in testing, but from what I've seen the emails don't discuss the results of testing, or the use of the data in races. Even the content of the phone calls between Coughlan and Stepney is not known, rather assumptions have been made about what they were talking about. Obviously, the emails made public are enough to establish that McLaren team members made some use of Ferrari data as provided by Stepney via Coughlan. For me that's enough to exclude the team from this year.

However, the example of Williams adopting a McLaren style front wing illustrates perfectly the way ideas get transferred from team to team. Clearly Williams looked at McLaren's design, evaluated it, and fitted it on their car because it proved effective. The difference is that Williams did not receive information about the McLaren that they should not have had. They simply looked at the car!!

Unfortunately the FIA have taken the opportunity to drag this whole saga into next year by demanding to look at the 2008 McLaren. That decision doesn't help the sport in any way, and it appears to have little justification. Perhaps more will be revealed when they release the full transcripts of both hearings tomorrow.

Having made clear they accepted the FIA verdict, Ferrari couldn't resist another couple of 'digs' when Jean Todt said (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62495) "it's a very soft sentence". Luca di Montezemolo also praised (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62491) the copy shop employee by saying "without him it would never have been possible to shine the light on to one of the worst pages in the history of motorsport". Those kind of comments are not helpful to the sport, and they do nothing to help the image of Ferrari as the 'victim' in all of this.

F1 needs to move on.

[leopard]

Acceptable decision made by FIA, Ferrari has been clearly satisfied with this decision, while in spite McLaren has to lose their constructor point and fined by a number of money, their opportunity to win WDC widely open.

I'd rather consider WDC is more prestigious than WCC, In case one of this two big teams weren't satisfied with this decision may have a risk of sabotaging F1 not to join the championship, would be terrible disaster for future of F1.

[seppefan]

Mercedes, though, have slammed the FIA's handling of the situation, revealing that at no stages were the specifications of McLaren's MP4-22 actually checked against the leaked Ferrari documents.

"Our partner McLaren repeatedly suggested to the FIA that our F1 car should be examined and checked against the competitor's documents," Mercedes said in a statement.

"However, [the] FIA has not made use of this offer to this day. No evidence of any culpable action has been submitted or made known to McLaren to date, and McLaren states that the team has not been involved in any culpable action whatsoever

[Daniel]

Mercedes, though, have slammed the FIA's handling of the situation, revealing that at no stages were the specifications of McLaren's MP4-22 actually checked against the leaked Ferrari documents.

"Our partner McLaren repeatedly suggested to the FIA that our F1 car should be examined and checked against the competitor's documents," Mercedes said in a statement.

"However, [the] FIA has not made use of this offer to this day. No evidence of any culpable action has been submitted or made known to McLaren to date, and McLaren states that the team has not been involved in any culpable action whatsoever
Yet again. The emails that we saw were nothing to do with parts from Ferrari's car that could actually be traced to McLaren's cars......

[Viktory]

Yet again. The emails that we saw were nothing to do with parts from Ferrari's car that could actually be traced to McLaren's cars......

exactly! Just because McLaren didn't copy a wing that could be found on the Ferrari doesn't mean they didn't get an advantage.
McLaren knew Ferrari's tactics in Australia at least. They tested Ferrari's weight distribution. They tested the gas Ferrari used in theur tyres etc etc etc.
Even if they decided not to use any of this on their car, it gave McLaren an indication where Ferrari were in the development cycle, which would undoubtably give McLaren ideas as to where to move their own development.

[Hondo]

Apologies, perhaps the answer lies amongst the previous 35 pages of this thread that I haven't read ( :mark: ), but I'm trying to understand the reason why team McLaren are labeled "cheaters". What specific article(s) in either the sporting or technical regulations have they breached?

Also, why was the team stripped of all their constructor's points when, as I understand, the Ferrari documents only became available to McLaren after the first few races were run? Should they not be able to keep the points scored for the races prior to receiving the documentation?

I'll try again. Cheat, cheaters, cheating, etc does not appear in the FIA Sporting Regulations. The definition of what constitutes "cheating" therefore would have to be in the mind of the user of the term. Although possible suggestions would probably be using ideas, concepts, information, and technologies developed by others and applying their use to your application without permission or license. Or developing and using technologies specifically designed to circumvent the rules. Or possibly, any breach of the rules may be considered cheating I guess.

Forget the documents, they had the hearing on the documents earlier and agreed that Coughlan and therefore McLaren should have turned them in to the FIA immediately but the documents had not been used for any competitive gain, so there was no penalty. The documents had nothing to do with the second go-around, except to set the stage for Max to do what he's been wanting to do since the great Indy-Michelin fiasco when Max was informed in no uncertain terms by a "spokesman" for the Michelin shod teams that any severe penalties put on the teams for not racing would result in an immediate walkout of those teams and the immediate launch of a break away series. Although there wasn't much love between Max and Ron before then, Max has had a large woody for the Ron ever since.

[F1boat]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62524

It seems that McLaren Mercedes won't appeal the decision.

[Hondo]

Since people have been asking, the FIA can use the fine money to promote the FIA and it's events. In other words, Max can use the money to fly around in a private jet and visit everybody and say "Hiya, I'm Max, you wanna have a race here?".

[BDunnell]

My view of this — the penalty meted out is just wrong. It's neither too harsh nor too lenient. Either McLaren should have been removed from both championships, or from neither. My feeling leans towards the latter, because, quite simply, no proof has been presented to suggest that McLaren has gained any sort of advantage as a result of what went on. This has to be the basis of any such judgment, and in this instance, it does not exist.

[BDunnell]

Edit — double post.

[Hondo]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62524

It seems that McLaren Mercedes won't appeal the decision.

Appealing the FIA is pretty much going up against a stacked deck. As the regulations and penalties are so loosely defined and very open ended, about the only thing you could appeal would be a punishment outside of the Sporting Regulations or a major procedural error.

If the FIA had ordered the McLaren team to pick up road trash between France and Switzerland as a penalty they couldn't have appealed that either. However, if the Swiss said naw, we don't want you wandering on the sides of our roads picking up trash and we'll arrest you if you do, then McLaren could appeal it and win the appeal because local jurisdiction forbids them from completing the penalty.

An extreme example, but you get the drift of it.

[Hondo]

Mr. Dunnell, I'm starting to really like you. You're right, the penalty is way wrong for what has been presented whether against McLaren or any other team. Max is way out of line this time. I've been having fun actually reading the sporting regulations and can tell you I wouldn't sign a contract that loose to buy a house or a car or to adopt a dog.

[Daniel]

My view of this — the penalty meted out is just wrong. It's neither too harsh nor too lenient. Either McLaren should have been removed from both championships, or from neither. My feeling leans towards the latter, because, quite simply, no proof has been presented to suggest that McLaren has gained any sort of advantage as a result of what went on. This has to be the basis of any such judgment, and in this instance, it does not exist.
But at the end of the day a very strong intent to cheat does exist and just because they may or may not have succeeded is irrelevant ;) Attempted murder is a crime even though the person doesn't succeed ;)

[Hondo]

But at the end of the day a very strong intent to cheat does exist and just because they may or may not have succeeded is irrelevant ;) Attempted murder is a crime even though the person doesn't succeed ;)

Attempted murder is a crime because there is a specific law against it. If there weren't, you would be free to continue trying to kill the idiot until you got it right.

Heres the rub. It has been shown that Ron Dennis reacted properly as each new tidbit of "evidence" came to his knowledge. At the first hearing it was decided that McLaren had not gained any advantage from the Ferrari documents. The emails, which Ron told Max about, showed there was comunication between Alonso, Stepney, Pedro, and Coughlan regarding Ferrari set up info, race strategy, and other useful data. Should McLaren incur some penalty for this? You bet. Should they incur what they got? No way. Out of the 4 people you can actually demonstrate as being involved in wrong doing, two of them have been given immunity. Why doesn't the FIA go ahead and slap a $100 million fine on Coughlan and Stepney also? Max says the drivers are never involved in things like this but looky here...two of them involved up to their tire pressure settings, but Max gave them immunity. Don't you think that makes Max look pretty foolish? So far, nobody that is truly guilty of any actual hands-on, knowingly perpertrated misdeeds has been punished. Not one. Ron Dennis has been punished beyond belief for the crime of owning a racing team and not knowing about what has been going on behind his back. Yeah, thats fair. Sure it is.

[BDunnell]

Out of the 4 people you can actually demonstrate as being involved in wrong doing, two of them have been given immunity. Why doesn't the FIA go ahead and slap a $100 million fine on Coughlan and Stepney also? Max says the drivers are never involved in things like this but looky here...two of them involved up to their tire pressure settings, but Max gave them immunity. Don't you think that makes Max look pretty foolish? So far, nobody that is truly guilty of any actual hands-on, knowingly perpertrated misdeeds has been punished. Not one.

At the same time, I believe any criminal or civil action has surely been hopelessly prejudiced by the FIA proceedings, though this will never worry the Italian legal system.

[markabilly]

Attempted murder is a crime because there is a specific law against it. If there weren't, you would be free to continue trying to kill the idiot until you got it right.

Heres the rub. It has been shown that Ron Dennis reacted properly as each new tidbit of "evidence" came to his knowledge. At the first hearing it was decided that McLaren had not gained any advantage from the Ferrari documents. The emails, which Ron told Max about, showed there was comunication between Alonso, Stepney, Pedro, and Coughlan regarding Ferrari set up info, race strategy, and other useful data. Should McLaren incur some penalty for this? You bet. Should they incur what they got? No way. Out of the 4 people you can actually demonstrate as being involved in wrong doing, two of them have been given immunity. Why doesn't the FIA go ahead and slap a $100 million fine on Coughlan and Stepney also? Max says the drivers are never involved in things like this but looky here...two of them involved up to their tire pressure settings, but Max gave them immunity. Don't you think that makes Max look pretty foolish? So far, nobody that is truly guilty of any actual hands-on, knowingly perpertrated misdeeds has been punished. Not one. Ron Dennis has been punished beyond belief for the crime of owning a racing team and not knowing about what has been going on behind his back. Yeah, thats fair. Sure it is.

Said it before and I will say it again, it was nothing personal, just business

If there was a personal vendatta that would have made the punishment massive at the first hearing....but that did not happen.

If you do not want to read, then watch Godfather I "Tell Mike it was nothing personal...." or "who says you can not kill a crooked cop..." or when old Godfather scolds his son, "never reveal to anyone outside the family what you are thinking...."

Maxievillie politics has no role in in determining the fair application of law to facts....however now the heir apparent (as refferred to by another poster in this thread), has leaked out the following--and this leak is of the type that is expressly forbidden by Machiavelli (never tell the troops it is all about greed and keeping the assets of the organization in good health or "tell anyone outside the family what you are thinking"):

from:http://msn.foxsports.com/motor/story/7237722
and out of the mouth of Todt:
"Even the president of FIA confirmed the penalty was soft, but we know in this business a lot of things are taken into consideration and I can understand that."

"It's much better to have a championship with all the drivers - I'm not arguing about that. "But lots of things were taken into consideration in order to favour the championship more, rather than this single bad case."
:vader:

[Tazio]

One down. One to go.

McLaren have dropped their appeal against their loss of constructors' points from the Hungarian Grand Prix.
The team were stripped of their points after Fernando Alonso blocked Lewis Hamilton in qualifying.

They have since been thrown out of this year's constructors' championship after being found guilty of an intention to benefit from Ferrari technical secrets.

But McLaren had considered continuing the Hungary appeal because it may have led to a reduction in the £49.2m fine.

That fine, part of the punishment handed down by the sport's governing body in the spy scandal, will be reduced by the amount of prize money McLaren have earned for the points they scored up to the Italian Grand Prix earlier this month.

The higher a team finishes in the constructors' championship, the more money they earn.

So it was mathematically possible, if the Hungary points were included, that McLaren might have had more points by Monza than Ferrari will score by the end of the year.

And that could have saved them several million pounds.

But a statement from the FIA said McLaren had notified it of their "wish to withdraw their appeal".


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7000683.stm
I thought the Mclaren lost all WCC points!
It seems this could only come into play if they had a successful appeal of the spy gate consequences

1 Ferrari 161
2 BMW Sauber-BMW 90 -71
3 Renault 39 -122
4 Williams-Toyota 28 -133
5 Red Bull-Renault 18 -143
6 Toyota 12 -149
7 Super Aguri-Honda 4 -157
8 Honda 2 -159
9 Toro Rosso-Ferrari 0 -161
10 Spyker-Ferrari 0 -161
11 McLaren-Mercedes 0 -161

[ioan]

exactly! Just because McLaren didn't copy a wing that could be found on the Ferrari doesn't mean they didn't get an advantage.
McLaren knew Ferrari's tactics in Australia at least. They tested Ferrari's weight distribution. They tested the gas Ferrari used in theur tyres etc etc etc.
Even if they decided not to use any of this on their car, it gave McLaren an indication where Ferrari were in the development cycle, which would undoubtably give McLaren ideas as to where to move their own development.

Yes, but the average Joe does not know this and Mercedes are just making sure that average Joe doesn't consider them cheats, although they are lclosely linked with RD's McCheats! That's all. ;)

[jjanicke]

exactly! Just because McLaren didn't copy a wing that could be found on the Ferrari doesn't mean they didn't get an advantage.
McLaren knew Ferrari's tactics in Australia at least. They tested Ferrari's weight distribution. They tested the gas Ferrari used in theur tyres etc etc etc.
Even if they decided not to use any of this on their car, it gave McLaren an indication where Ferrari were in the development cycle, which would undoubtably give McLaren ideas as to where to move their own development.

There is absolutely no benefit to test Ferrair's weight distribution on the MP4-22.

Teams have been playing with Nitrogen to fill the tires forever now, so nothing new there.

Granted knowing the Kimi was going pit on lap 18 in Australia could benefit Mclaren it didn't. No Harm.

Obviously none of these really would harm Ferrari, and that's assuming that Mclaren actually did anything with the info.

[jjanicke]

But at the end of the day a very strong intent to cheat does exist and just because they may or may not have succeeded is irrelevant ;) Attempted murder is a crime even though the person doesn't succeed ;)

A strong attempt by a Ferrari employee to get Mclaren to use the data.