IF.. GrpB/S hadn't been banned..... ???

[Zico]

Modern WRC cars are often described as being as evolutionary advanced as the current WRC rules/regulations and technology allow, not sure I totally agree but...
Hypothetical question for you all.. If group B or S cars were the legal format in the WRC. What technologies would we see being used in todays cars? What evolutionary routes could they have taken?

Artistic licence granted, Use your imagination.. :)

[janvanvurpa]

Modern WRC cars are often described as being as evolutionary advanced as the current WRC rules/regulations and technology allow, not sure I totally agree but...
Hypothetical question for you all.. If group B or S cars were the legal format in the WRC. What technologies would we see being used in todays cars? What evolutionary routes could they have taken?

Artistic licence granted, Use your imagination.. :)

Zico, probably very much the same stuff.
Way back when GpA was thrust into the top role, I remember reading that Cesare Fiorio said something in some Italian mag like :the only problem right now is with GpA you must fit all the gears within the production case (carter?), so now if something inside breaks, you simply go home".

Not sure exactly when maybe during 88, or 89 season but FIA began to interpert the rule( I have heard after serious lobbying by all the Teams) allowing "an alternate Heavy duty gearbox" to mean that everybody could go to outside sources for the whole gearbox, so the road to Woking where X-trac is located began to traffic from Toyota, Mazda, Subaru etc.
Already by 1990 the first rudimentary "active" diffs for center and from started showing up.

In 1993 or '94 in an interview in some French magazine, the boss at Renault said when GpB was banned it forced them to use roadcar body sheels and when they stop complaining and built cages to work together with the shell, they ended up with structures far more rigid than they ever dreamt about when they were making tube frames and just throwing some light panels on for looks.
He said further that once they got such stronger shells, they could approach the question of springs and dampers in a more systematic way, and they improved things significantly, and he stressed that differential design had improved so much (90% locking vs 40% for their old Super cinque) along with brakes (330mm with big 4 piston calipers vs 240mm and 2 pots "way back" 7-8 years ealier) that a low powered Clio in GpA form with only 175bhp with the great Jean Ragnotti beat every single stage time from when the same (younger!) Jeanno won Tour de Corse in the GpB car.

So I think we would see more or less the same stuff we see now (they did go BACK to allowing just 25 kits of the good stuff, and they allow HUGE latitude in shell and suspension revision now)

[Daniel]

I wonder if they would have done stuff like doing a DB9 style bonded aluminium chassis on a 2007 Grp B car. Would give them even better rigidity and lower weight and give them a bit more latitude for altering weight distribution. The only thing I can think of :mark:

I wouldn't mind side exit exhausts too :) But that was nothing to do with the banning of Grp B.

[Josti]

Well, aside the technical stuff. If Group B wasn't banned, and Porsche and Ferrari had entered, I wonder what their influences would have been on the sport. I mean, these supposed cars were much different from the usual rally cars at that time.

[Zico]

Thanks for that info Janvanvurpa, very interesting.

Not 100% sure of what the GrpB or S regulations were exactly but I wonder if we would be seeing active aerodynamics, active suspension?
I seem to remember the last version of the Delta S4 having Carbon fibre wheels/driveshafts iirc, could we have also seen a C/F F1 type tub chassis?



Anyone have a link to the grpB regs?

[Daniel]

Thanks for that info Janvanvurpa, very interesting.

Not 100% sure of what the GrpB or S regulations were exactly but I wonder if we would be seeing active aerodynamics, active suspension?
I seem to remember the last version of the Delta S4 having Carbon fibre wheels/driveshafts iirc, could we have also seen a C/F F1 type tub chassis?



Anyone have a link to the grpB regs?
I do.

Grp B regs

Did you make a few road versions? Yes? Good. You can make a group B car.

How big is your engine? Ok then you can use a wheel this big. The rest you decide on OK? :)

[Zico]

I do.

Grp B regs

Did you make a few road versions? Yes? Good. You can make a group B car.

How big is your engine? Ok then you can use a wheel this big. The rest you decide on OK? :)

:D

Iirc the engine and gearbox had to remain manufacturer sourced only.. while grpS meant they could outsource?



Re- technologies.. Im picturing a Carbon fibre tub chassis with a mid mounted supercharged/turbocharged rotary engine, paddleshift DSG gearbox, active diffs alround, active aero, active suspension, and pretty much every possibly concievable part/component made from Cf or titanium.

What past/present technologies from F1 could also have also have been implemented?

[Daniel]

Problem is a carbon fibre chassis isn't meant to hit irregular things like trees. It's great if you're hitting a wall and it can distribute the force over a greater area it's great.

[Zico]

True..

[LeonBrooke]

I'm imagining spaceframes, reinforced with carbonfibre, bodywork to look vaguely like a Focus/C4/Impreza etc., midmounted engines, big power outputs,... we'd probably have off-road DTM cars :s hock:

[FAL]

Remember the original GpB regs were exactly the same as GpA regs except for the different minimum production quantity and allowing dry sumping. Neither originally allowed for "Evolution". Changes were manufacturers' lobbying, not FIA initiative.
GpN/A/B was the start of the slippery slope towards the end of rallying in that it stopped the traditional simple DIY private entrants that just added twin cars etc in Gp2.

[Ferjancz]

One is for sure , in the time of Gr.B the cars had reached their max power ! Many pilots have sad that! When Audi came out on tests with 1000 bhp engine the pilots says " Take this thing away form us , it is impossible to drive" . So may be now a days the Gr. B cars would have been restricted !

[Daniel]

The 1000hp Quattro was only used at Pikes Peak

[Josti]

Their was a supposed follow up car for the S1, which they tested in secrecy. Don't know if that's the 1000 bhp version.

[A.F.F.]

Little bit off the point but there was a small interview from Timo Salonen recently. Interesting thing was his attituded towards group-A cars which has been known to be negative. Now he said that "the change from 206 to what they were? group-N cars....."

Should his attitude be different if he would have chosen some other deal than Mazda 1987 ? Very quickly he chose to do raids when he was asked to. Coming to think, out of all who have driven " celebrating 50 years " NORF, he seemed to be only one who didn't enjoy and constantly whined about the car. :mark:

[RallyCat909]

Honestly Id like to have seen GrpS take off, the freedom of wild shapes combined with safety limited too 300bhp sounds much like modern WRCars. (Asides from the somber looking sedan based cars of now....just my opinion.)

[janvanvurpa]

Remember the original GpB regs were exactly the same as GpA regs except for the different minimum production quantity and allowing dry sumping. Neither originally allowed for "Evolution". Changes were manufacturers' lobbying, not FIA initiative.
GpN/A/B was the start of the slippery slope towards the end of rallying in that it stopped the traditional simple DIY private entrants that just added twin cars etc in Gp2.

I am sorry but that statement is wrong.
GpB replaced the old Gp4, and there was enormous freedom in both, but one major difference was cabin interior dimensions. Gp4 and GpB both allowed for 2 place cars and there are always on the homologation papers stated the interior dimensions.
GpA replaced Gp2, GpN replaced Gp1 and both required minimum of 5000 cars and both required 4 place interior dimensions.

Regarding the "evolution" model, the 205s, Delta S4, RS200s and Metros etc we watched on the stageswere the "evolution models" as the rules stated 200 minimum series, and 10% additional "evolution models". Come on we all remember the "road car" versions of the cars. Fords RS200 was a mild mannered 225 bho or so standard, it was only able to be the crazy things we love because the rules allowed alternate cams, brakes, steeering, gearsets, final drives, diffs etc

GpA, like Gp4 before it, required Homologated parts but allowed from the first day alternate materials in the pistons, rods, crankshaft (you could change from series cast iron crankshaft to a custom forged steel unit), alternate brakes, alternate materials in the suspension (as long as it bolt in within 20mm of series production), alternate clutches (diameter and number of discs), alternate material in the flywheel, alternate gears, diffs and final drive, from 1 Jan 1986 it allowed "free" camshaft timing and lift.
It did require the block, and the head casting to be series items, and allowed ports a general tolerance of whatever the Manufacturer
choose to write on the form.
GpA required retaining original intake and exhaust manifolds, and original intercooler on turbo cars.
Importantly it required a series bodyshell made in the damn 5000 units, GpB never reuired a series more than 200

What GpN allowed is easier, only need to say they allowed alternate brake pads (plaquettes), alternate suspension, injectors, and the exhaust was free for routing but had to retain the original pipe size.

GpB and GpN/GpA shared nothing except the RS200 used Sierra's glass, and some dash panels and heater control junk.

[pentti]

The big change would have been getting away from rear mid engine location. As 4wd was allowed,it was wrong to have engine in back. Too difficult for drivers. I was asked to design GrB car for Pepsi. My design had two stroke turbocharged V6 Yamaha engine(2,14 liter) situated in front mid location with fluid operated transmission(like tanks). Yamaha promised over 1000 hp because fuiel consaption was not an issue. It also had 4wsteering and clever cooling for brakes. Cockpit adjustible lights for fog. Spare wheel inside the car. twin shocks in each corner. It would have been fun to drive that rocket ship.