Championship standings if McLaren are disqualified

[Mikeall]

Hopefully it won't happen but if Mclaren are disqualified the standings before the Italian Grand Prix would be:

1 Massa 85 (6 wins)
2 Raikkonen 82 (5 wins)
3 Heidfeld 65 (1 win)
4 Kubica 43
5 Fisichella 37
6 Kovaleinen 36
7 Wurz 21
8 Rosberg 21
9 Webber 17
10 Trulli 16
11 Coulthard 12
12 Schumacher 12
13 Sato 7
14 Button 4
15 Barrichello 4
16 Vettel 3
17 Speed 2

1 Ferrari 167
2 BMW 111
3 Renault 73
4 Williams 42
5 Red Bull 29
6 Toyota 28
7 Honda 8
8 Super Aguri 7
9 Toro Rosso 2

[ChrisS]

if drivers/team are dsq from the championship the others below them inherit the results?

I dont think thats how it works I think the standings remain the same and the points of the dsq drivers/teams are lost

[ioan]

if drivers/team are dsq from the championship the others below them inherit the results?

I dont think thats how it works I think the standings remain the same and the points of the dsq drivers/teams are lost

If they are disqualified for all the races for this season than the standings have to be corrected, after all it's not Heidfeld's fault that McLaren did what they did!

[BeansBeansBeans]

If they are disqualified for all the races for this season than the standings have to be corrected, after all it's not Heidfeld's fault that McLaren did what they did!

It all depends on how the FIA decide to punish McLaren.

For instance, Schumacher lost all his points and his 2nd place finish in 1997, but he was allowed to keep his wins and podiums.

Personally, I think the most likely result is that McLaren will lose all of their constructors points, but the drivers will be unaffected in terms of the WDC.

[Mikeall]

If it is about how to get a setup for Bridgestone tyres then the drivers will be disqualified as well if guilty, because they benefited. The example would be when Honda were disqualified from the results of the first part of 2005. It was the team who broke the rules, but the drivers benefited so they were all disqualifed and banned from the next two races.

[BriannaBee]

For instance, Schumacher lost all his points and his 2nd place finish in 1997, but he was allowed to keep his wins and podiums.
It's a bit different because Schumacher's misdeed was in one race compromising one driver whereas, if the allegations are true, McLaren may well have been cheating in every race compromising the rest of the grid. If McLaren are found guilty, there is no reason that they should keep any of their positions if those positions were illegally gained at the expense of other drivers and teams. It's all moot anyway because the FIA is unlikely to do much of anything about it.

[jens]

Wow. If all the McLaren's results will be cancelled, we could have another season like 1988 - all the races except one (Heidfeld in Canada) won by the same team. :p :

And that scenario would suit Toyota too - as they have scored several 9th and 10th places, then without McLarens they would be closer to Red Bull than they currently are. :p :

[BeansBeansBeans]

Some good points on here, and I can see how my initial prediction may have been a bit naive. Having said that, you never know what the FIA will do next!

[Daniel]

It all depends on how the FIA decide to punish McLaren.

For instance, Schumacher lost all his points and his 2nd place finish in 1997, but he was allowed to keep his wins and podiums.

Personally, I think the most likely result is that McLaren will lose all of their constructors points, but the drivers will be unaffected in terms of the WDC.
I think in a team sport you have to take points from the drivers if they've benefited.

There is precedent too!!!!

http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

The drivers lost their points but other drivers didn't move up to take their places though.

[markabilly]

It all depends on how the FIA decide to punish McLaren.


Personally, I think the most likely result is that McLaren will lose all of their constructors points, but the drivers will be unaffected in terms of the WDC.


Most likely result!!!

Already said so some time ago...Nobody really cares about the WCC, but the WDC is why 99.9999999999% of the paying public cares about.....

Otherwise the dream season for Bernie ernie goes down the toilet, revenue goes down, no brit rookie wins WDC, Silverstone bans any F1 races from ever being held there as long as Bernie and Maxie pad are still breathing (although thier life expectancy might be shorter than expected if they are caught in the untied kingdom :eek: )...and on....and on....

Besides the drivers have already been promised "immunity" and that would mean imposing a penalty on them despite their immunity...not keepin their promsise?? No. they sing, they walk scot free......as to future races, if McCheats is banned,,,the situ gets very unclear........so I doubt that will happen either


As to those who say I make no sense, well take a good look at the last such meeting...mclarenuts had possession but no penalty????no evid?? well duuuuh, what a a joke that was....

why should the second stanza be different when it comes to penalties?? OK now we have evidence we can not ignore so the answer:

Easy...fine them some money, knock off one thousand WCC points from this season and the next...public will not care and they still have their WDC going on to the wire......which is all that matters for many, esp. the pocketbook of Bernie enrnie (one thing is certain Maxipad is not going to take away Bernie's grubb money, but as to RD, hey no one ever really liked him all that much anyway, and if somebody is gonna get squashed, most people could care less about him anyway....!!)

[mstillhere]

It all depends on how the FIA decide to punish McLaren.

For instance, Schumacher lost all his points and his 2nd place finish in 1997, but he was allowed to keep his wins and podiums.

Personally, I think the most likely result is that McLaren will lose all of their constructors points, but the drivers will be unaffected in terms of the WDC.

We don't know for a fact yet if PDLR gave Alonso the Ferrari's info. But he did, then it would fair, imo of course, that Alonso lose his points and then since Hamilton used Alonso's settings as well, then Lewis (knowingly or not) should be losing his points as well. Of course if instead McLaren will be kicked out the championship all together, well in that case keeping or not their points it won't matter, really.

[mstillhere]

I think in a team sport you have to take points from the drivers if they've benefited.

There is precedent too!!!!

http://homepage.virgin.net/shalco.com/tte_ban.htm

The drivers lost their points but other drivers didn't move up to take their places though.

WOW, I had no idea. They cheated in F1 and in rally too? I can't beleive it

[mstillhere]

Easy...fine them some money, knock off one thousand WCC points from this season and the next...public will not care and they still have their WDC going on to the wire......which is all that matters for many, esp. the pocketbook of Bernie enrnie (one thing is certain Maxipad is not going to take away Bernie's grubb money, but as to RD, hey no one ever really liked him all that much anyway, and if somebody is gonna get squashed, most people could care less about him anyway....!!)

You mention the "public" being very shallow and not caring if the F1 world is an honest one or not. Well, if we were to go by our panel here, it does seem, despite a couple people refusing unlogicly (I must say) to aknowlege reality, that the vast majority of members here accepts the idea that when a crime takes place, the perpretor(s) shall be severely punished (and NOT by a couple thousand dollars). On top of that, how much does it worry you the kind message being sent to the other teams next seasons if the punishment would be something similar to the one indicated by you? That cheating is ok because is validated by the public, because people are shallow? Are you aware of the gravity of your statement and the consequences that your suggestions would cause to this sport? How much do you really hate F1?

[Tazio]

As big of a Ferrari honk that I am, I think it would be a shame if Lew, and Fred lost a chance to fight it out for the wdc.
I think that fred will beat hambone for the title at interlagos.
Or, be escorted out of the place in a straight-jacket!

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

As big of a Ferrari honk that I am, I think it would be a shame if Lew, and Fred lost a chance to fight it out for the wdc.
I think that fred will beat hambone for the title at interlagos.
Or, be escorted out of the place in a straight-jacket!

:vader: careful, you're messing with markabiily's stuff here. do you have a signed release, sir?

[SteveA]

You mention the "public" being very shallow and not caring if the F1 world is an honest one or not. Well, if we were to go by our panel here, it does seem, despite a couple people refusing unlogicly (I must say) to aknowlege reality, that the vast majority of members here accepts the idea that when a crime takes place, the perpretor(s) shall be severely punished (and NOT by a couple thousand dollars). On top of that, how much does it worry you the kind message being sent to the other teams next seasons if the punishment would be something similar to the one indicated by you? That cheating is ok because is validated by the public, because people are shallow? Are you aware of the gravity of your statement and the consequences that your suggestions would cause to this sport? How much do you really hate F1?

The thing is, the public love a good scandal story, and I bet TV viewing figures and revenues are up at the moment!

F1 is a soap opera first, sport second.

[F1boat]

I think that McLaren will be cleared of all charges.

[Daniel]

Most likely result!!!

Already said so some time ago...Nobody really cares about the WCC, but the WDC is why 99.9999999999% of the paying public cares about.....

Otherwise the dream season for Bernie ernie goes down the toilet, revenue goes down, no brit rookie wins WDC, Silverstone bans any F1 races from ever being held there as long as Bernie and Maxie pad are still breathing (although thier life expectancy might be shorter than expected if they are caught in the untied kingdom :eek: )...and on....and on....

Besides the drivers have already been promised "immunity" and that would mean imposing a penalty on them despite their immunity...not keepin their promsise?? No. they sing, they walk scot free......as to future races, if McCheats is banned,,,the situ gets very unclear........so I doubt that will happen either


As to those who say I make no sense, well take a good look at the last such meeting...mclarenuts had possession but no penalty????no evid?? well duuuuh, what a a joke that was....

why should the second stanza be different when it comes to penalties?? OK now we have evidence we can not ignore so the answer:

Easy...fine them some money, knock off one thousand WCC points from this season and the next...public will not care and they still have their WDC going on to the wire......which is all that matters for many, esp. the pocketbook of Bernie enrnie (one thing is certain Maxipad is not going to take away Bernie's grubb money, but as to RD, hey no one ever really liked him all that much anyway, and if somebody is gonna get squashed, most people could care less about him anyway....!!)
Depends what immunity means. If the drivers are found to be aware of the cheating they could be banned from driving. If McLaren was cheating but the drivers benefited then the drivers could still lose their points. I think the FIA's dealings with Toyota are a clearer indicator of what punishment would be levied against them.

[jens]

Actually it's really weird to follow such championship. Someone is winning and leading the championship, but at the same moment you know that virtually he might not be the leader at all. Who is the real leader, who is the favourite?

How must the drivers feel on the race track? It looked like Räikkönen did nothing to prevent Hamilton from overtaking him. Maybe he felt that Lewis was not his "real rival" and he wanted to score safe 6 (or 10??) points to gain advantage over Massa, his 'real rival'?! :p :

[Mikeall]

You mention the "public" being very shallow and not caring if the F1 world is an honest one or not. Well, if we were to go by our panel here, it does seem, despite a couple people refusing unlogicly (I must say) to aknowlege reality, that the vast majority of members here accepts the idea that when a crime takes place, the perpretor(s) shall be severely punished (and NOT by a couple thousand dollars). On top of that, how much does it worry you the kind message being sent to the other teams next seasons if the punishment would be something similar to the one indicated by you? That cheating is ok because is validated by the public, because people are shallow? Are you aware of the gravity of your statement and the consequences that your suggestions would cause to this sport? How much do you really hate F1?

The idea of the "public" was invented by Flavio Briatore. According to him (I don't know the quote), no one in F1 had thought about them before, they just thought about building cars and racing them.

[jas123f1]

Actually it's really weird to follow such championship. Someone is winning and leading the championship, but at the same moment you know that virtually he might not be the leader at all. Who is the real leader, who is the favourite?

How must the drivers feel on the race track? It looked like Räikkönen did nothing to prevent Hamilton from overtaking him. Maybe he felt that Lewis was not his "real rival" and he wanted to score safe 6 (or 10??) points to gain advantage over Massa, his 'real rival'?! :p :


I agreed with that - it's a bl**y mess.
Whole story is a long and sad no, no, no from McLaren's side.

It's very bad that no one did say anything even now before FIA has put a pressure against them. It looks more and more like that several people at McLaren did know about this Ferrari info.

Why no one didn’t say anything can we only speculate of - it can bee some kind of solidarity against the team or the reason can also be a "command" from RD that "no one are allowed to make any statements in the case - I take personally care of it" ..

Obviously did several persons at McLaren know about the comprehensive Ferrari technology they acquire an illegal way. Maybe they didn’t know how they get it, but they did know that the info was there and it was illegal.
It’s also very hart to believe that RD didn’t know nothing of anything; therefore it’s very difficult to understand how Ron Dennis can be that naive after all his years in this sport. It’s unbelievable to me. Now has this "spy affair" destroyed a hole season in F1 not only McLaren but for every one.

It shouldn’t either be that fun to win the Drivers title after that the fastest cars are excluded… but what I can see, FIA hasn’t so much to choose between if they find McLaren guilty ones more - It should probably be even worse if McLaren goes free again - especially after all their aggravating of the investigation.

One can only think .. did RD take his responsibility ?? . He should send the Ferrari info back to them – asking them what’s happened and send the responsible people in his team (if any) to the court.. and also even possible helped Ferrari to find the leak and stop up it - that’s actually is a part of his job in the team – if he did know ??

[Viktory]

I wonder if I should include Hamilton and Alonso for my Belgium pickems. hmm, this is tricky...

[Ranger]

Methinks if any penalty is undertaken, McLaren will be disqualified from the Constructors standings. Too much revenue lost and negative publicity if both of the drivers are DQ'd.

[Daniel]

Methinks if any penalty is undertaken, McLaren will be disqualified from the Constructors standings. Too much revenue lost and negative publicity if both of the drivers are DQ'd.
Yes but if that be the case then both drivers had an unfair advantage. I can certainly see other manufacturers appealing any decision which takes McLaren's points away but doesn't penalize the drivers for the very fact that their drivers will finish two places further back than they possibly should have if McLaren hadn't had any advantage it may have had. There will be less sponsorship money for their drivers. I don't think there will be any less money. It will just not go to McLaren, Alonso and Hamilton and why should it IF they have cheated?

[ArrowsFA1]

Yes but if that be the case then both drivers had an unfair advantage.
Very true. If McLaren had made use of information obtained by whatever means from Ferrari to gain an advantage then the drivers cannot be excluded from any penalty because they are as much a part of the team as anyone else.

The only penalty, if the case against McLaren can be proved, is exclusion from both championships.

[Daniel]

Very true. If McLaren had made use of information obtained by whatever means from Ferrari to gain an advantage then the drivers cannot be excluded from any penalty because they are as much a part of the team as anyone else.

The only penalty, if the case against McLaren can be proved, is exclusion from both championships.
Yup. I think of it like a team of athletes being given steroids unknowingly. The team cheated but the athletes benefited and had an advantage and should be DQ'ed. I think it would set an extremely dangerous precedent. IF the FIA were to let drivers off when the team cheated. If Hamilton or Alonso win the title (having cheated) then it's still advertising and an achievement for McLaren and that's wrong. So next year a team could field an illegal car and take the driver to the WDC and the glory that will bring them and the team and not be worried about the consequences. I think people are getting confused between the drivers not being prosecuted and not being penalised. If Hamilton, Alonso or De La Rosa grass up McLaren then they won't get fined or banned but they will be penalised because it's a team sport.

[Ranger]

I can certainly see other manufacturers appealing any decision which takes McLaren's points away but doesn't penalize the drivers for the very fact that their drivers will finish two places further back than they possibly should have if McLaren hadn't had any advantage it may have had.
I don't think that particularly matters too much, my guess is because all-in-all, the manufacturers (notably Ferrari) won't be satisfied with anything less than a decision (be it one that proves McLaren guilty or innocent) that sends McLaren back to the stone age.

Which is unfortunate, because this won't be an issue that can be packaged up and put under the table.

[F1boat]

McLaren won't be penalised. This year they are in good relations with FIA. Look about the flexy elements on their front spoiler, look about Ferrari's banned system of flexy floors...

[FIA]

Heidfeld wouldn't get the win in canada they would have the same points, like the schumacher situation in 1997.

[ioan]

Heidfeld wouldn't get the win in canada they would have the same points, like the schumacher situation in 1997.

I don't know why you people think that the McLaren case is similar to what happened to MS in 97. Lack of knowledge maybe?

[BeansBeansBeans]

We should have FIA Hearing Pick'ems, because judging by this thread, I'd get top marks! :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Hopefully it won't happen but if Mclaren are disqualified the standings before the Italian Grand Prix would be:


1 Ferrari 167
2 BMW 111
3 Renault 73
4 Williams 42
5 Red Bull 29
6 Toyota 28
7 Honda 8
8 Super Aguri 7
9 Toro Rosso 2

OMIGOD!!! NO!!!! Honda has overtaken my team :bigcry:

[nigelred5]

McLaren won't be penalised. This year they are in good relations with FIA. Look about the flexy elements on their front spoiler, look about Ferrari's banned system of flexy floors...

I guess we can throw that one out the window! ;)

[Hawkmoon]

I hope McLaren like it at the Spyker end of the pit lane becuase they'll have all of 2008 to get used to it! :D

[Valve Bounce]

I hope McLaren like it at the Spyker end of the pit lane becuase they'll have all of 2008 to get used to it! :D

Don't worry, they will see a positive in that, put two bays instead of one, and come up with winners next year.