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ArrowsFA1
5th September 2007, 14:55
Former Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney is linked to the attempted sabotage of cars before May's Monaco Grand Prix, an Italian prosecutor has said.

Ferrari have taken Stepney to court in their home town of Modena after a mysterious powder was allegedly found around the petrol caps of their cars days before the race.

Powder also turned up in Stepney's pocket but the Briton has said he was set up.

Modena prosecutor Giuseppe Tibis has completed his file on the case and believes there is evidence against Stepney.

"Certainly from sworn testimony the suspicion exists that it was Stepney who handled the powder that has polluted the petrol," he was quoted as saying in Italian media on Wednesday.

The case will now proceed following the court's August break.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62062

I still find it too incredible to believe that a man of Nigel Stepney's reputation within F1 would resort to something as crass as putting powder in a fuel tank!! It makes no sense and sounds more like the kind of thing that would be written into a Hollywood film :crazy:

janneppi
5th September 2007, 15:03
Now before anyone else joins in this, what i expect to be a hilarious expedition into the collective stupidity of man I'd like to ask you all to behave, leave the personal issues, stick to the discussion instead of gaining point in some idiotic competition of who can be the biggest donkey.
That goes to everyone, even you donks. :p :

ArrowsFA1
5th September 2007, 15:11
Now before anyone else joins in this, what i expect to be a hilarious expedition into the collective stupidity of man...
:laugh:

...I'd like to ask you all to behave, leave the personal issues, stick to the discussion instead of gaining point in some idiotic competition of who can be the biggest donkey.
:up:

Aside from all the wider implications of the other alleged actions by Stepney, it is the 'powder in the fuel tank' that just seems...well, laughable. Stepney joined Ferrari in 1993 (?) and was a big part of the subsequent success of the team, not least because of his attention to detail. The idea that he would 'sneak' into the garage and pour powder into a fuel tank, leaving traces for someone to find, is more fitting of Norman Wisdom (Mr Grimsdale!! Mr Grimsdale!!).

tinchote
5th September 2007, 15:25
Indeed, it is really hard to believe that if he wanted to sabotage the cars he would done something like the "white powder". On the other hand, it would be interesting to know what kind of evidence is the one linking him to the powder.

F1MAN2007
5th September 2007, 15:35
If the evidence is that they have found trace of powder in his pocket, then the mechanic or everyone else who touched the car should have as well some traces of the powder. Have They been investigated as well?

ioan
5th September 2007, 15:39
If the evidence is that they have found trace of powder in his pocket, then the mechanic or everyone else who touched the car should have as well some traces of the powder.

But maybe not in their pockets!

I mean, it's difficult for that powder to get into someone's pockets just like that! :p : :rolleyes:

F1MAN2007
5th September 2007, 15:47
But maybe not in their pockets!

I mean, it's difficult for that powder to get into someone's pockets just like that! :p : :rolleyes:

Of course it should be a set up like it happened to him :D

BDunnell
5th September 2007, 15:54
Indeed, it is really hard to believe that if he wanted to sabotage the cars he would done something like the "white powder". On the other hand, it would be interesting to know what kind of evidence is the one linking him to the powder.

This is evidence Italian-style, remember!

ioan
5th September 2007, 17:30
This is evidence Italian-style, remember!

You say it like if it would be Congo style!

ArrowsFA1
5th September 2007, 17:34
Formula One's governing body said on Wednesday that it had received new evidence relating to a spying controversy involving McLaren and Ferrari and an appeal hearing scheduled for next week had been withdrawn.

The International Automobile Federation (FIA) said in a statement that its World Motor Sport Council had instead been reconvened for a hearing in Paris on September 13, the date scheduled for the appeal.

It added that representatives of championship leaders McLaren, who could face exclusion from the championship, had been invited to attend.

"Following receipt of new evidence, the World Motor Sport Council has been reconvened for a hearing in Paris on September 13," it said.

Asked about the new information, an FIA spokesman said the world body was "not in a position to make any comment at this stage."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62066

Interesting that these two stories emerge on the same day :crazy: but it seems new evidence has been found...

Erki
5th September 2007, 17:37
Wasn't Stepney suspected from the beginning of all this scandal? crash.net served this thing as if it's a huge turn in events. :\

Bagwan
5th September 2007, 18:12
This is bad , bad , very bad for McLaren .

The appeal has been dropped , and the WMSC council will be re-convened .
Being that the council stated that they would re-examine the issue if new evidence of advantage gained surfaced , there either is a direct link between powder in the tanks and Trudy-gate , or there is something damning we don't know about yet .

Either way , the council regathered is no easy task , and the evidence must be serious enough to warrant it .

That means we may see serious sanctions .

This comes right after the Ferrari home race where McLaren is tipped to have the advantage .

Hondo
5th September 2007, 19:11
I too, find it hard to believe anybody would leave any powder residue behind. What is this white powder anyway? Has it been analyzed? Aren't fuel samples taken from the cars after the race and wouldn't an extra ingredient show up during that test? I really hate to see McLaren take a fall if these were individual acts.

Big Ben
5th September 2007, 21:04
The most hilarious fact is that he carried the powder in his pockets... How was he supposed to take it out so that he wouldn´t leave any evidence? And why would he use powder? couldn´t he find some liquid? it would have been much cleaner... how did he put the powder in the tanks during the race? the ferraris were slow during the entire weekend compared to the mclarens. how come they weren´t able in so many months to explain what magic powder did he use? it would be interesting to see what is it that makes the cars just a bit slower than the mclarens but still fast enough to handle the bmw cars...

Give me a break...

CarlMetro
5th September 2007, 21:14
I find it a little amatuer if Stepney, who is an extremely talented and intelligent man, has left any sort of trace on the cars but this is also the same Nigel Stepney who has admitted to handing the 720 page technical dossier to MacLaren.

There have been may examples over the years of rational, sensible, intelligent people doing rather strange things when pressure, stress or hatred have been a trigger.

Hazell B
5th September 2007, 21:24
I'm guessing here, but wouldn't carrying whatever the powder was in a plastic bag, adding it to the tank then putting the bag back in his pocket provide enough evidence of sabotage (or at least contact) only under police-style forensic testing? How can Ferrari have the proof so easily without having grabbed his pockets there and then, on the day? I can't see him having carried loose powder about in his pocket.

All seems a bit far fetched to me.

JasonD
5th September 2007, 22:48
If he did it and its still IF, there could be a few reasons.

Money. maybe someone paid him off.[/*:m:kzi4toxv]
Hero. maybe he wanted to be a hero and say, "Hey look what I found by the fuel cap, lucky I caught that guys".[/*:m:kzi4toxv]
MS. Maybe he didnt want KR or FM to do as well as MS, silly reason I know but possible.[/*:m:kzi4toxv]
Crazy. Maybe he just lost it, look at the other things people do in society, maybe he was sniffing cocaine and inhailing gas fumes.[/*:m:kzi4toxv]
He didnt do it. Come on this could be a setup, someone else on the team could have dumped the powder, hires a hooker to seduce Stepney, she slides her hand in his pocket and voilla![/*:m:kzi4toxv]

edv
5th September 2007, 22:54
Ahh he's being tried in a court at Modena.
How do you fancy his chances of a 100% impartial hearing??

Get the popcorn..

ioan
5th September 2007, 23:02
The most hilarious fact is that he carried the powder in his pockets... How was he supposed to take it out so that he wouldn´t leave any evidence? And why would he use powder? couldn´t he find some liquid? it would have been much cleaner... how did he put the powder in the tanks during the race? the ferraris were slow during the entire weekend compared to the mclarens. how come they weren´t able in so many months to explain what magic powder did he use? it would be interesting to see what is it that makes the cars just a bit slower than the mclarens but still fast enough to handle the bmw cars...

Give me a break...

Stepney does not go to races anymore since quite some time.
Everything happened before the race when the cars were back at the factory. They changed the fuel tanks as soon as they found traces of detergent (that's what they say it was), and before the cars left for Monaco.

So you see, it would have been difficult for the FIA to analyze the fuel with the powder after the race.

Now, give me a break... :D

ioan
5th September 2007, 23:03
I too, find it hard to believe anybody would leave any powder residue behind. What is this white powder anyway? Has it been analyzed? Aren't fuel samples taken from the cars after the race and wouldn't an extra ingredient show up during that test? I really hate to see McLaren take a fall if these were individual acts.

See previous post. ;)

ioan
5th September 2007, 23:23
Some more beating around the bush on this subject:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19576.html

BDunnell
5th September 2007, 23:43
Some more beating around the bush on this subject:

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19576.html

In what sense is this 'beating about the bush'?

I would be very interested to hear at some point what the leading F1 journalists have heard in the last few weeks, in terms of rumours circulating the paddock. I bet they have been told a lot — just as they probably did about the moving Ferrari floor at a very early stage. But I digress.

trumperZ06
6th September 2007, 00:45
;) Hhmmm... too many... " What-if's " here...

I'll wait until evidence is presented before jumping to any conclusion !!!!

jso1985
6th September 2007, 00:51
I really don't think Stepney is that stupid to try to make a sabotage in a Disney movie way!(too simple and easy to catch)

or as posted in other posts, maybe he has totally lost it...

markabilly
6th September 2007, 01:23
ok I know it was found in the pants of NS, supposedly while NS was taking a shower, :confused: :confused: and the stuff was found around the petrol caps, but was any of it actually found inside the gas tanks?

Was the fuel examined to check it out?

And just WHAT is this white powder...is it sugar, cocaine, sand, flour or what, or was it just some white powder that no body knows what it was and no body kept a sample...... :confused:

wmcot
6th September 2007, 01:49
I'm not sure the Stepney white powder story and the recalling the FIA world council are related at this point. Perhaps more evidence against McLaren has come forth or maybe Stepney has turned "state's witness" to have his lawsuit dropped? From the outside, it doesn't look good for McLaren since, having let them off once, I doubt the FIA world council would be recalled just to let them off again.

I only hope that the public can get an idea of exactly what is going on!

Hawkmoon
6th September 2007, 03:49
It does seem strange that someone with Stepney's technical knowledge would resort to dumping detergent into the fuel tanks in a bid to sabotage the cars.

Unless he deliberately chose a low-tech method so that the list of people who could be considered for the sabotage was very long. If he had done something that required technical knowledge of the car then the list of suspects would be much shorter.

I smell a cunning plan in all of this.... :D

Of more significance than Mr Stepney's exploits is the dropping of the appeal and the reconvening of the WMSC. Is this an ominous sign for Ron's men? Or perhaps it's the opposite? Would this not suggest that something has come up that is so significant as to render Ferrari's appeal moot?

If the same verdict is reached this time as last, won't Ferrari still want to appeal? Since they won't have had their appeal heard the first time they are probably still able to appeal.

This could get very ugly..... :uhoh:

Hondo
6th September 2007, 04:32
Possibly the "new evidence" exonerates McLaren completely. After all, McLaren has been invited to appear, not ordered to attend. In addition, they don't seem to be very upset about it.

Hondo
6th September 2007, 04:38
It would be funny if the whole thing turned out to be a hoax and while the manual looked like it came from Ferrai, the actual car and specifications therein was a 98 Jordon.

Hondo
6th September 2007, 04:50
If McLaren were to get banned for 2007 and 2008 or just one or the other, does that void their driver's contracts leaving them free to leave if they wish? Or can they make them stay as long as they pay them?

mstillhere
6th September 2007, 05:54
The most hilarious fact is that he carried the powder in his pockets... How was he supposed to take it out so that he wouldn´t leave any evidence? And why would he use powder? couldn´t he find some liquid? it would have been much cleaner... how did he put the powder in the tanks during the race? the ferraris were slow during the entire weekend compared to the mclarens. how come they weren´t able in so many months to explain what magic powder did he use? it would be interesting to see what is it that makes the cars just a bit slower than the mclarens but still fast enough to handle the bmw cars...

Give me a break...

I have to say first of all that I am very sensitive to this issue and that I personally don't consider anyone involved in F1 being an amateur. They all have been in this business for a while, therefore reading the comments of some of you saying "did they check this or that" makes me laugh. Second, what I actually find really hilarious is that very few people know what the evidence is and there are big caliber attorneys involved in all this I am pretty sure thay'll make sure that the thuth be realesed in due time not one minute earlier and also I am pretty sure that they know that having found powder in someone's pocket is not really strong evidence. I am guessing here.
If you would like, I can mention other theories present out there in cyber space JUST for the sake of the argument. One of these theories, for example, says that the police were able to find an e-mail correspondence between Stepney and several other employees working at McLaren, not with just one of them. An other one says that actually it could be Stepney himself providing new evidence to the FIA as he said himself he would do. An other one says that it's actually the McLaren employee (I can't remember his name and I am too lazy to look it up) who decided to cooperate with justice and there are many others. But regardless, what I know is that this is not a joke. Not to ferrari. ( After all, this is not the first time the Ferrari has suffered this kind of blows. If you remember Toyota was part of an espionage case and found guilty to also have stolen Ferrari secrets and right know the two spyes I think one was a former Ferrari employee are in jail ) and if Ferrari is pursuing this issue is because they or someone else have something important in their hands. And after reading an article on Tuttosport.it on this matter it looks like RD lately tried to have a meeting with Todt (yes, an otherone) to see if they could find an amicable way out this mess. Now, according to the article his request was rejected. So, as far as I am concerned, I am very curious to see what will happen on the 13th, (I wonder if we ever really are going to find out what happened, though) until then I am not going to say anything because as mentioned above only a handfull of people right know what really happened. Everything else is just pure speculation. What I know is that whatever it is that they have it has to be solid.

Hondo
6th September 2007, 06:19
Glad we could make you laugh and cheer you up a little, although questions like "what was the powder?" are really addressed to our local peer group here to see if any of them know. As far is "is the fuel checked?" goes, the rules seem to be changing more and more every season, I don't keep up with them all.

Hondo
6th September 2007, 06:22
I personally believe Toyota to be in Formula1 and an amateur because even the newest rookie on this forum knew that Ralf wasn't worth that kind of money.

mstillhere
6th September 2007, 06:38
I personally believe Toyota to be in Formula1 and an amateur because even the newest rookie on this forum knew that Ralf wasn't worth that kind of money.

Changing quickly subject for a second, I agree with you. Personally, judging from his body language, I don't even think he enjoys racing anymore. So, yeah, I think he's ready to go. Joining his brother in his retirement. Retiring at 30 years old. Man, that's when I got my real full time job. Oh well......

wmcot
6th September 2007, 07:57
It does seem strange that someone with Stepney's technical knowledge would resort to dumping detergent into the fuel tanks in a bid to sabotage the cars.


Perhaps Nigel is just very messy while doing the laundry and went to the factory after spilling part of a box of detergent all over himself??? ;)

ArrowsFA1
6th September 2007, 11:06
The FIA need to ensure that the new evidence and the hearing next week are made public. Anything less will further damage the credibility of F1.

Whatever the outcome, this seasons' title races have both been tarnished and that's a damned shame for us and the sport.

F1MAN2007
6th September 2007, 13:43
I am wondering the reason why all those 2 big news came out the same day?! It should be someything serious there. Impatient to see the outcome on 13th.

But I suspect (just pure speculation) this happened and emerged so fast after Mc seems to be strong at Monza. Hope they will prove me wrong

Rudy Tamasz
6th September 2007, 13:47
What if Nigel wanted to set up Ferrari by imitating a Ferrai attempt to set up him? Let's unleash some conspiracy theories...

BDunnell
6th September 2007, 14:20
I find this appeal to drivers from other teams to come forward with information a little strange. If they're going down that road, then why not ask the same of other team members, of journalists, of race officials? All of them, I'm sure, must have heard much of the same paddock gossip.

ArrowsFA1
6th September 2007, 14:38
I find this appeal to drivers from other teams to come forward with information a little strange. If they're going down that road, then why not ask the same of other team members, of journalists, of race officials?
Very odd indeed. Also, why restrict any "appeal" for information to the issue of 'Stepneygate'? It's not as if this is the first instance of 'espionage' to hit F1 over the years; far from it!

Knowledge passes from team to team as people move from team to team. Of course the theft of documents or material is not the same as knowledge held in your head, but it's not that far removed. Just look at the career path of Nikolas Tombazis who (IIRC) moved from Ferrari to McLaren and back to Ferrari. I don't suppose his memory was wiped when he stepped through the doors at Woking or Maranello!

markabilly
6th September 2007, 14:42
Said it before the last hearing---NOTHING is going to happen this year that will spoil LH's chances at the WDC

Bernie will see to that, because it would not be good for the sport a/k/a Bernies' pocketbook and nothing much becoming a final penalty until after the season is over

Mac might lose the WCC and constructor points now or after the season......as I think even Ernie has figured out that 98% of the paying public could care less who wins WCC

One does not need inside knowledge to know this, just common sense and knowledge about what is good for Bernie ernei and Beernie is not going to have his close buddy Max Mosley destroying the financial rewards of F1, no matter how much Mac deserves it...

It does not matter what the "new evidence" is....mosley is not screwing the cash cow..... :rolleyes:

Ian McC
6th September 2007, 15:14
I still find it too incredible to believe that a man of Nigel Stepney's reputation within F1 would resort to something as crass as putting powder in a fuel tank!! It makes no sense and sounds more like the kind of thing that would be written into a Hollywood film :crazy:

About as sensible as sending the wife to the local Pronto Print with classified documents that you are not supposed to have! :s

Garry Walker
6th September 2007, 15:21
Knowledge passes from team to team as people move from team to team. Of course the theft of documents or material is not the same as knowledge held in your head, but it's not that far removed.

Yes, it is indeed very far removed from that. I am not sure how any mature person can compare such issues.
Now McLaren is under investigation for another thing, this is getting too funny.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62078

Bagwan
6th September 2007, 16:44
2 appeals rendered useless .
McLaren appealed the ruling that took the points away in Hungary .
Now they appear set to lose those points in the gearbox issue anyway .

And , Ferrari's appeal has been dropped , and , as a result , it can be assumed that the case against McLaren at the WMSC hearing is so solid as to make it pointless to bother . Otherwise , it might have been re-scheduled .

Methinks the Macs are in the deep end here .

Asking for specific comment from drivers makes one wonder if someone who was driving for them might have been disgruntled enough to let slip a secret or 2 .

ICKE
6th September 2007, 16:49
Spionage Affäre: Alonso wusste Bescheid

Bild vergrößern Im Formel 1 Spionage-Fall sind neue Beweise aufgetaucht. Nach Aussagen der McLaren-Piloten Fernando Alonso und Pedro de la Rosa hat die FIA erneut den Weltrat zusammengerufen.


Die Spionageaffäre zwischen McLaren und Ferrari geht am nächsten Donnerstag in seine entscheidende Runde. Der Weltverband FIA sagte das für den 13. September angesetzte Berufungsverfahren ab und rief dafür erneut den Weltrat zusammen. Grund für die Programmänderung sind neue Beweise, die der FIA offenbar vergangene Woche zugespielt worden sind. Im Fahrerlager von Monza verdichteten sich Gerüchte, dass die Fahrer in den Fall verwickelt sind. Demnach sollen Fernando Alonso, Lewis Hamilton und Testfahrer Pedro de la Rosa von der FIA Post bekommen bekommen haben. Sie wurden aufgefordert, zu den neuen Beweisen Stellung zu nehmen. Ihnen wurde Straffreiheit zugesichert für den Fall, dass sie sich kooperativ zeigen.

Motosport-TotalThe rumour is that Alonso has been in talks with Pedro de la Rosa, concerning the secret information from Ferrari, and FIA now has evidence over this. Alledgedly de la Rosa received information from Coughlan and then passed it on.

From Autosport :


Said e-mail exchange should have been shortly after the start of the season and clearly before Coughlan received the Ferrari docs from Stepney, hence indicating that several McLaren staff knew of the Ferrari IP from an early stage. Whether this would be enough to get McLaren convicted this time around remains to be seenFor those of you who can read german

http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news/2007/09/Spionage_Wusste_Alonso_Bescheid_07090610.html

ArrowsFA1
6th September 2007, 17:01
Ferrari's appeal has been dropped , and , as a result , it can be assumed that the case against McLaren at the WMSC hearing is so solid as to make it pointless to bother.
There is no indication where the evidence has come from yet, or what it is. It may incriminate McLaren further, or it may have the potential to exonerate them. We have no means of making an assumption either way.

Bagwan
6th September 2007, 17:45
There is no indication where the evidence has come from yet, or what it is. It may incriminate McLaren further, or it may have the potential to exonerate them. We have no means of making an assumption either way.

Do you think it likely they will re-convene the council , just to say "not guilty"?
They said at the original meeting that they would re-visit the issue if there was evidence found that showed that McLaren had benefitted from having the documents .

Being that the original decision that found McLaren guilty but left them un-sanctioned was met with widespread derision , I would think that the evidence must be pretty damning , or they wouldn't go near this snakepit again .


I suppose it's possible that the axe could fall the other way if the evidence is that they were framed up , but , given that Ferrari have dropped the appeal , it seems unlikely to me .

ArrowsFA1
6th September 2007, 17:57
Do you think it likely they will re-convene the council , just to say "not guilty"?
"Not-guilty" does, on the face of it, look unlikely but that assumpion is being made in the light of the FIA's statement after the original hearing.

Now it might well be that the new evidence shows that the Ferrari information has been used in the way the FIA describe in their statement, but I'd rather wait and see what the evidence actually says.

BDunnell
6th September 2007, 18:01
The rumour is that Alonso has been in talks with Pedro de la Rosa, concerning the secret information from Ferrari, and FIA now has evidence over this. Alledgedly de la Rosa received information from Coughlan and then passed it on.

Incidentally, I don't believe it says to whom, unless I am missing something contained within.

F1MAN2007
6th September 2007, 18:20
Now it is reported here:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62085

Juppe
6th September 2007, 18:31
This whole thing starts to sound very dark for McLaren - and for the whole sport.

It doesn't really matter who wins the championship, if it is decided in court.

It may be that Fernando drives for Renault 2008 after all. It really sounds like it could happen.

ICKE
6th September 2007, 18:41
HUGE NEWS : ALONSO HAS CONFESSED TO EVERYTHING!

Reported by various media outlets! He is testifying against Mclaren in exhange for immunity from FIA. So he will keep his status and his points but Mclaren will be excluded from the championship?!

Holy .....!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

tinchote
6th September 2007, 18:41
This whole thing starts to sound very dark for McLaren - and for the whole sport.

It doesn't really matter who wins the championship, if it is decided in court.

It may be that Fernando drives for Renault 2008 after all. It really sounds like it could happen.


Indeed.

The question is, isn't it surprising that all this is happening this year, and nothing similar happened for more than 10 years? What does it mean? I don't buy that teams are more competitive now than in the past :s

F1MAN2007
6th September 2007, 19:13
HUGE NEWS : ALONSO HAS CONFESSED TO EVERYTHING!

Reported by various media outlets! He is testifying against Mclaren in exhange for immunity from FIA. So he will keep his status and his points but Mclaren will be excluded from the championship?!

Holy .....!!! :eek:


Last months RD said :

"It is in the interests of F1 that whistle-blowing is encouraged and not discouraged. ....."

Hope he will stick on this even if it may come from inside his team!! :D

ICKE
6th September 2007, 19:27
Translated from MTV3

Alonso tunnusti F1:n tietovuodon

-Alonso confessed F1 spy scandal

Fernando Alonso's confess on F1 spy scandal is the reason why WMSC invited McLaren to new hearing.

According to MTV3's information FIA had pressured Alonso with possible penalty of removing his superlicense that he have to reveal what he knows about McLaren-Ferrari "spy saga". From Alonso's confess it's revealed that he received e-mail about specific detailed technical information from Pedro de la Rosa that are connected to Coughlan's stolen material .

De la Rosa is Mike Coughlan's friend. Before McLaren defended them selfs by saying that Coughlan worked alone and Ferrari-knowledge didn't spread any further inside the team. Alonso's confess confirms that Ferrari-knowledge spreaded badly

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2007/09/559148

http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/urheilu/formulakuvat/autot/2007/435472.jpg

Thanks for the cash Dennis, see ya soon. :p

ioan
6th September 2007, 19:34
Do you think it likely they will re-convene the council , just to say "not guilty"?

That would be however a must, as they are the ones who have to pronounce themselves on the matter.
But why did they summon McLaren? Just to tell them that they are not guilty?! I doubt it.

ioan
6th September 2007, 19:45
Indeed.

The question is, isn't it surprising that all this is happening this year, and nothing similar happened for more than 10 years? What does it mean? I don't buy that teams are more competitive now than in the past :s

Someone badly needed to win the Championship after a long time?

Tom206wrc
6th September 2007, 20:28
Damn !!!! :eek: :s

wmcot
6th September 2007, 20:45
If even a portion of this is true, things look bad for McLaren. Hopefully, the public will be allowed to hear the findings so all the speculation can end.

McLaren have not had the best year so far:

1. Leaking the (illegal) email about Ferrari's floor design
2. Coughlan being caught with a 700+ page Ferrari technical document.
3. The pitstop penalty in Hungary(?)
4. The use of a gearbox that had not passed FIA tests (and subsequent fine)
5. Now being recalled before the FIA as more evidence has surfaced.

This year has been more interesting off the track than on it!

Blackburn Buccaneer
6th September 2007, 20:47
HUGE NEWS : ALONSO HAS CONFESSED TO EVERYTHING!

Reported by various media outlets! He is testifying against Mclaren in exhange for immunity from FIA. So he will keep his status and his points but Mclaren will be excluded from the championship?!

Holy .....!!!

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


my professional experience always lead me to believe that, if there was a soft spot at mclaren, that it would lay somewhere around alonso: here's what i speculated earlier: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119769

wmcot
6th September 2007, 20:57
Assuming (remember, I'm just assuming) that McLaren are proven guilty on some charge or other, it would be sad to see the championship decided in the courts. However, it would be even worse to see the championship decided by a team winning it illegally.

If the final outcome is against McLaren ad LH goes on to win the WDC how would he like the asterisk after his name in the record books indicating that the win was done under suspicious circumstances?

Remember, these are just assumptions and opinions, we'll have to wait for the actual outcome.

wmcot
6th September 2007, 21:01
my professional experience always lead me to believe that, if there was a soft spot at mclaren, that it would lay somewhere around alonso: here's what i speculated earlier: http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119769

You may have been spot on with your comments - and what a better way for Alonso to get out of his McLaren contract! How much do you think Ron would fight to keep him after this all washes out?

Blackburn Buccaneer
6th September 2007, 21:07
i have no idea: but my personal feeling is,this is a very sad chapter in f1: for everyone in f1 and for the fans also. I am a fan: and while i admire the ones at the top, i also admire the people who make fi go, including the ones at the back.
I JUST WISH THEM ALL WELL. I hate noone: I admire them all.
Who is without sin? I wish that we wouldn't throw stones.

wmcot
6th September 2007, 21:16
Who is without sin? I wish that we wouldn't throw stones.

So true, but it's not a good excuse for doing anything you can get away with.

Blackburn Buccaneer
6th September 2007, 21:18
So true, but it's not a good excuse for doing anything you can get away with.

i totally agree.

trumperZ06
6th September 2007, 21:21
:dozey: Hhmm... So the thinking seems to be that...

Alonso's gonna... "RAT" McLaren out in an effort to return to Renault !!!

If that's true...

Who would or could... ever Trust Alonso... again !!!

IMO... If McLaren is guilty of mis-deeds there should be a more ethical way to gather evidence... than to turn a very unhappy and dis-satisfied team member against his employer.

ioan
6th September 2007, 21:23
Assuming (remember, I'm just assuming) that McLaren are proven guilty on some charge or other, it would be sad to see the championship decided in the courts. However, it would be even worse to see the championship decided by a team winning it illegally.

If the final outcome is against McLaren ad LH goes on to win the WDC how would he like the asterisk after his name in the record books indicating that the win was done under suspicious circumstances?

Remember, these are just assumptions and opinions, we'll have to wait for the actual outcome.

Well if McLaren are found guilty of using to their advantage information stolen from Ferrari to than they might very well be banned from F1 for this season.

In this case I doubt that Hamilton would still be able to win the WDC title without an F1 car to drive. :D

wmcot
6th September 2007, 21:26
IMO... If McLaren is guilty of mis-deeds there should be a more ethical way to gather evidence... than to turn a very unhappy and dis-satisfied team member against his employer.

Actually it happens all the time in the business (aka - "real) world. Sort of like Alonso doing a Stepney...

Let's hope this makes teams (ALL teams) think twice about how they are getting their information and what their team practices are!

ioan
6th September 2007, 21:28
Who would or could... ever Trust Alonso... again !!!


Renault maybe? Or Toyota?! :p :

Blackburn Buccaneer
6th September 2007, 21:32
about 25 years ago, i was the second in command at a mutimillion dollar operation/business. I took a hit for for the guy over me: i could have given him up: we weren't close, but i was single then, and he had a family, so i made a decision that i would protect him, and his family.
In the end it turned out o.k.

wmcot
6th September 2007, 21:43
Well if McLaren are found guilty of using to their advantage information stolen from Ferrari to than they might very well be banned from F1 for this season.

In this case I doubt that Hamilton would still be able to win the WDC title without an F1 car to drive. :D

But knowing the FIA's past decisions, they'll probably just take away all constructor's points to save face and keep the money flowing in.

trumperZ06
6th September 2007, 21:55
;) Yeah... you see this happening all the time in criminal trials. One witness testifying against another to get a reduced sentence.

In a close-knit business...say like Formula 1, you can get quickly "Black-balled", if the business managers are afraid to trust you.

:( As of now... it appears that if Alonso's willing to " RAT McLaren OUT"... he's likely doing it for "Personal Gain".

Blackburn Buccaneer
6th September 2007, 22:10
;) Yeah... you see this happening all the time in criminal trials. One witness testifying against another to get a reduced sentence.

In a close-knit business...say like Formula 1, you can get quickly "Black-balled", if the business managers are afraid to trust you.

:( As of now... it appears that if Alonso's willing to " RAT McLaren OUT"... he's likely doing it for "Personal Gain".

my experience wasn't a criminal matter, it was one of competence.

Bagwan
6th September 2007, 22:17
Worst case scenario , as threatened at the first hearing was this and next year banned .
This is rather unlikely , as it would throw the whole game into a tizzy .

But it will need to be a serious sanction if they threatened a 2 year ban . It brings wonder what a team would need to do to be sanctioned with a 2 year ban .
In this high speed world , 2 months puts you behind . 2 years could scuttle the team , or , at least make you look elsewhere .


Points will be docked , and money will change hands , and all will be done .

That is , until Nigel and Mike's trials come up .
Then , we'll go through it all again .

Malbec
6th September 2007, 22:18
Well if McLaren are found guilty of using to their advantage information stolen from Ferrari to than they might very well be banned from F1 for this season.

I don't think that its going to be possible to prove that McLaren used any information it may (or may NOT!) have received from Ferrari to improve their car, after all proving that is going to be outside the abilities of a non-criminal investigation.

So Ferrari release the news that Stepney will be formally charged just before their home GP? They wouldn't be pandering to their home crowd now would they?

NoahsGirl
6th September 2007, 22:26
When I first read this I thought it was a joke, but it's clearly not. This gets more and more disturbing.

BDunnell
6th September 2007, 22:37
Worst case scenario , as threatened at the first hearing was this and next year banned .
This is rather unlikely , as it would throw the whole game into a tizzy .

But it will need to be a serious sanction if they threatened a 2 year ban . It brings wonder what a team would need to do to be sanctioned with a 2 year ban .
In this high speed world , 2 months puts you behind . 2 years could scuttle the team , or , at least make you look elsewhere .


Points will be docked , and money will change hands , and all will be done .

That is , until Nigel and Mike's trials come up .
Then , we'll go through it all again .

In the current climate, I can see why this is not a nonsensical scenario. However, I find the idea of McLaren themselves being banned from anything other than the 2007 constructors' championship difficult to square with what has been suggested about Alonso getting some form of immunity from personal sanction this season. Of course, the latter part is only speculation at the moment, though.

Whatever happens, this whole saga is awful for F1 (though some would say that any publicity is good publicity), and mark my words, it will drag on and on long past whatever verdict the FIA and the courts come up with. I very much hope that any court proceedings make use of the evidence of others from within F1, given that the timings of hearing any rumours about some of the stuff relating to the Ferrari floor and the McLaren documents could be a very important part of this whole business.

BDunnell
6th September 2007, 22:39
In a close-knit business...say like Formula 1, you can get quickly "Black-balled", if the business managers are afraid to trust you.


This is exactly what a number of senior F1 people say in a most interesting article about espionage in the latest edition of MotorSport. A couple remarked that they had been approached in the past by would-be employees claiming to have material from the team they had just left. Of course, they weren't touched with a barge-pole, because the likelihood was that they would do exactly the same thing the next time they moved on.

Juppe
6th September 2007, 22:44
It wouldn't surpirice me in the least, if Lewis by some miraculous coincidense had a better strategy in the weekend's race.

tinchote
6th September 2007, 22:57
IMO... If McLaren is guilty of mis-deeds there should be a more ethical way to gather evidence... than to turn a very unhappy and dis-satisfied team member against his employer.

Don't forget, as someone mentioned ahead, that RD has been telling everybody that whistleblowing is a great thing! ;) :D

trumperZ06
6th September 2007, 22:59
This is exactly what a number of senior F1 people say in a most interesting article about espionage in the latest edition of MotorSport. A couple remarked that they had been approached in the past by would-be employees claiming to have material from the team they had just left. Of course, they weren't touched with a barge-pole, because the likelihood was that they would do exactly the same thing the next time they moved on.

;) We have a saying in the aircraft industry...

" A dog that will fetch... will also carry" .

Mikeall
6th September 2007, 23:01
I hope McLaren haven't cheated in the way they are accused of because they would at least have their results wiped for the season + race bans (Like Honda a couple of years ago.) But is they have and information from the Ferrari dossier has been floating around the team they shouldn't be able to benefit and get away with it.

As bad as it would be to have them disqualified, any win for them is already be tainted by the fact that the Chief Designer illegally acquired an internal dossier on their rivals car even if it wasn't actually beneficial...

Morally confusing...

Blackburn Buccaneer
6th September 2007, 23:39
I hope that whatever alonso and de la rosa reveals is forthright and straight forward: no embellishments. I cannot imagine, after being given, arguably the best car on the grid, that alonso would feel so angry towards mclaren, that without some outside impetus, excluding the letter from the fia, that he would wait this long to come forward with this "new" information.
What is his ultimate motivation?

ICKE
7th September 2007, 00:06
Probably to save his superlicense, keep his points and a little payback to Ron Dennis and all the others he seems to dislike.

wmcot
7th September 2007, 00:24
Probably to save his superlicense, keep his points and a little payback to Ron Dennis and all the others he seems to dislike.

And to free himself up to move to Renault (or whoever) without his contract being held over his head!

ioan
7th September 2007, 00:55
What do you guys think that would be the best outcome of this mess?

1. The FIA decides that McLaren are guilty and they are banned for the remaining races / they are out of this year's championship and F1 will be perceived as a place with a strong ethical background

or

2. The FIA, under pressure from commercial right holders and Hamilton & McLaren fans, comes up with a verdict and punishment that allows McLaren to continue to fight for this season's title

Could we have a poll about this? I'm really curious to see what people think that would be the right decision.

BDunnell
7th September 2007, 01:02
What do you guys think that would be the best outcome of this mess?

1. The FIA decides that McLaren are guilty and they are banned for the remaining races / they are out of this year's championship and F1 will be perceived as a place with a strong ethical background

or

2. The FIA, under pressure from commercial right holders and Hamilton & McLaren fans, comes up with a verdict and punishment that allows McLaren to continue to fight for this season's title

Could we have a poll about this? I'm really curious to see what people think that would be the right decision.

I suspect some people, quite rightly, would also think that other options might be desirable.

Without the actual evidence, it is rather hard to come to a worthwhile decision.

Hawkmoon
7th September 2007, 01:09
There are some serious holes in this "Alonso rats out McLaren" theory.

1. Why would Alonso lose his superlicence? He and Hamilton didn't do anything. They may lose their points because they are part of McLaren and will have benefitted from any wrong doing on McLaren's part but I see no reason why their licences would be revoked.

2. If Alonso is looking to save his points then he is going about it the wrong way. If McLaren get banned he may keep his points but he won't have a car to drive so his points won't do him any good. If McLaren only lose their constructor's points, I doubt they'll be very friendly to the person who cost them those points. They'll either drop Alonso all together or make his position compeletly subservient to Hamilton's needs.

3. If he thinks this is the best way to get out of his McLaren contract he's seriously deluded. This will leave a mark on his character that may make him untouchable to anyone other than Flavio. He'll be virtually consigning his career to Flavio and hoping that Flavio stays around long enough that Renault can become competitive again.

I think Alonso would be far better served by doing his best to help McLaren win the titles, even if that means Hamilton taking the WDC, and then doing a Button and getting out of his deal with Ron. Ron's no idiot and I'm sure he'd rather let Alonso go then have a repeat of this season.

Blackburn Buccaneer
7th September 2007, 01:25
[quote="Hawkmoon"]There are some serious holes in this "Alonso rats out McLaren" theory.

1. Why would Alonso lose his superlicence? He and Hamilton didn't do anything. They may lose their points because they are part of McLaren and will have benefitted from any wrong doing on McLaren's part but I see no reason why their licences would be revoked.

I see your point.

From my perspective, the real sick individual is the one who started this ball rolling: We should be so lucky to find out who this is. I believe, that in time, his name will come out: usually, the answer is right there: not readily apparent: but there.

Blackburn Buccaneer
7th September 2007, 01:39
another thing to think about as to what's actually going on here:
there has to be at least 4 or more players involved here, whose names haven't been mentioned yet.
to hell with conspiracy theories, step back and look at everything that has happened in f1 going back to last year.
people just don't wake up one morning and decide to screw up everything: there's more here than meets the eye.

markabilly
7th September 2007, 02:11
What do you guys think that would be the best outcome of this mess?

1. The FIA decides that McLaren are guilty and they are banned for the remaining races / they are out of this year's championship and F1 will be perceived as a place with a strong ethical background

or

2. The FIA, under pressure from commercial right holders and Hamilton & McLaren fans, comes up with a verdict and punishment that allows McLaren to continue to fight for this season's title

Could we have a poll about this? I'm really curious to see what people think that would be the right decision.

Already put in my vote as to what is most likely to happen, similar to number 2, except it will be a verdict that allows LH to continue to fight, not necessarily Maclarent getting to continue to contest WCC

However I am not saying that is what should happen, only what will.....





Said it before the last hearing---NOTHING is going to happen this year that will spoil LH's chances at the WDC

Bernie will see to that, because it would not be good for the sport a/k/a Bernies' pocketbook and nothing much becoming a final penalty until after the season is over

Mac might lose the WCC and constructor points now or after the season......as I think even Ernie has figured out that 98% of the paying public could care less who wins WCC

One does not need inside knowledge to know this, just common sense and knowledge about what is good for Bernie ernei and Beernie is not going to have his close buddy Max Mosley destroying the financial rewards of F1, no matter how much Mac deserves it...

It does not matter what the "new evidence" is....mosley is not screwing the cash cow..... :rolleyes:


Don't you Brits worry, LH is still safe for WDC however the wcc for maclaren,,,that may be different and the perfect "face-saver" :vader:

Valve Bounce
7th September 2007, 04:10
What do you guys think that would be the best outcome of this mess?
I'm really curious to see what people think that would be the right decision.

I can't think; I am too confused! :(

Ranger
7th September 2007, 04:45
What do you guys think that would be the best outcome of this mess?

1. The FIA decides that McLaren are guilty and they are banned for the remaining races / they are out of this year's championship and F1 will be perceived as a place with a strong ethical background

F1 and strong ethical background have never gone hand in hand. Starting with the fact that F1 is still burning fuel and contributing to emissions in a time of hightened environmental awareness.

There is no best outcome of this, hence I think this will be swept under the carpet once the decision arrives - unless McLaren is proved completely innocent (and remember, we don't have the actual evidence yet). Regardless of what that decision is, 2007 will be remembered as a year where politics interfered with a great season of F1.

Hawkmoon
7th September 2007, 05:06
Let's look on the bright side.

If McLaren get kicked out of the championship we'll still have a title fight between the Ferrari drivers and it'll be even closer than the one we have now.

OK. You have to look at it from a Tifosi point of view but you have to admit, I'm not wrong! :D

Hondo
7th September 2007, 06:17
What do you guys think that would be the best outcome of this mess?

1. The FIA decides that McLaren are guilty and they are banned for the remaining races / they are out of this year's championship and F1 will be perceived as a place with a strong ethical background

or

2. The FIA, under pressure from commercial right holders and Hamilton & McLaren fans, comes up with a verdict and punishment that allows McLaren to continue to fight for this season's title

Could we have a poll about this? I'm really curious to see what people think that would be the right decision.

As a Ferrari fan, this is somewhat painful but,

1. Ban Mclaren and it's drivers for 2007, for always seeming to be hanging around the scene of the crime.

2. Ban Ferrari and it's drivers for 2007 for being too careless with it's technical information. First Toyota, now McLaren. C'mon guys, let's institute a little security here.

WDC and WCC to go to Heidfeld and BMW. Bitch'in.

Blackburn Buccaneer
7th September 2007, 06:39
As a Ferrari fan, this is somewhat painful but,

1. Ban Mclaren and it's drivers for 2007, for always seeming to be hanging around the scene of the crime.

2. Ban Ferrari and it's drivers for 2007 for being too careless with it's technical information. First Toyota, now McLaren. C'mon guys, let's institute a little security here.

WDC and WCC to go to Heidfeld and BMW. Bitch'in.

we don't yet know if mclaren deserves any penalty based on evidence, why?, because we haven't yet been made privy to the evidence: the same evidence which caused the fia to rule, guilty but no punishment.
if at the next meeting they rule innocent, or guilty, then they had better present the public with convincing and concrete reasons why.
otherwise, there will be people of either side who will dismayed by their ruling.

Finally, if mclaren is shown by direct evidence to have received and USED these ferrari documents, then the fia should not stop there, it should determine who definativlely on the farrari side, sent these documents, and what was their motivation: stepney has denied he did this.

If the fia is unable to get to the bottom of this: and i mean ALL of the facts, then making a clean decision is improbable.

I can live with your solution, however.

mstillhere
7th September 2007, 07:20
There are some serious holes in this "Alonso rats out McLaren" theory.

1. Why would Alonso lose his superlicence? He and Hamilton didn't do anything. They may lose their points because they are part of McLaren and will have benefitted from any wrong doing on McLaren's part but I see no reason why their licences would be revoked.

Well, IF TRUE, Alonso seems to be involved since he received STOLEN information from his collegues.


2 If Alonso is looking to save his points then he is going about it the wrong way. If McLaren get banned he may keep his points but he won't have a car to drive so his points won't do him any good. If McLaren only lose their constructor's points, I doubt they'll be very friendly to the person who cost them those points. They'll either drop Alonso all together or make his position compeletly subservient to Hamilton's needs.

Agree


3. If he thinks this is the best way to get out of his McLaren contract he's seriously deluded. This will leave a mark on his character that may make him untouchable to anyone other than Flavio. He'll be virtually consigning his career to Flavio and hoping that Flavio stays around long enough that Renault can become competitive again.

Agree


I think Alonso would be far better served by doing his best to help McLaren win the titles, even if that means Hamilton taking the WDC, and then doing a Button and getting out of his deal with Ron. Ron's no idiot and I'm sure he'd rather let Alonso go then have a repeat of this season.

I really don't think we will ever see FA helping Lewis winning the WDC. Nope, based of what we have seen this year with the saga and all, oh no, I don't think so.

Hawkmoon
7th September 2007, 08:25
I really don't think we will ever see FA helping Lewis winning the WDC. Nope, based of what we have seen this year with the saga and all, oh no, I don't think so.

I not suggesting he should directly help Hamilton. I think he should help McLaren, which in turn may help Hamilton win the title. It's a risk he'll have to take. If he helps McLaren and beats Hamilton then the WDC is his and he can negotiate a release.

If he sends McLaren up sh!t creek in a leaky boat then he'll get his release all right. The WDC on the other hand may as well be on the moon because he'll have kissed it goodbye!

janneppi
7th September 2007, 08:27
What do you guys think that would be the best outcome of this mess?

1. The FIA decides that McLaren are guilty and they are banned for the remaining races / they are out of this year's championship and F1 will be perceived as a place with a strong ethical background

or

2. The FIA, under pressure from commercial right holders and Hamilton & McLaren fans, comes up with a verdict and punishment that allows McLaren to continue to fight for this season's title

Could we have a poll about this? I'm really curious to see what people think that would be the right decision.

Would you settle for:
1. Due to the pressure from Ferrari camp, McLaren will be shamelessly, and without solid proof, be kicked out of the Championship dragging the series into a new low tarnishing the 2007 Championship as a joke no one will want to remember.

2. FIA after looking into the evidence, decides it doesn't warrant the exclusion of McLaren Mercedes teams from the series.


Or perhaps something in the middle? :p :

ArrowsFA1
7th September 2007, 10:49
It seems that the only thing known among all the rumours and speculation about the new evidence is that it has not come from either Coughlan or Stepney.

ArrowsFA1
7th September 2007, 11:42
FIA president Max Mosley confirmed in a letter to Formula One teams last week that the new evidence that has led to a fresh hearing over the Ferrari spy saga did come from McLaren's drivers.

Mosley says the FIA was made aware of: "an allegation that one or more McLaren drivers may be in possession, or that such drivers have recently been in possession, of written evidence relevant to this investigation."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62097

The full letter from Mosley to the teams (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62098)

Flat.tyres
7th September 2007, 11:58
It seems that the only thing known among all the rumours and speculation about the new evidence is that it has not come from either Coughlan or Stepney.

What is undeniable is that there is a new source of information.

I haven't heard anything definitive and have not seen anything to confirm what this is.

Of course, the rumours go around that PdlR received some technical data from MC which he passed onto FA.

Now, this is a RUMOUR but what would the implications of this?

Did MC give some data to PdlR. They are friends afterall and did MC disclose that the data was received from an illegal source. Was this the same with Alonso?

Scenario 1. If MC passed data to PdlR without disclosing the source then I think McLaren have to accept that one of their employees, acting in a rouge manner as has been confirmed by the FIA, had in fact passed on Ferrari information to un unsuspecting PdlR which may benefit (if unknowingly) McLaren.

Now, I can't even imagine what data would benefit McLaren that would be useful to PdlR. The only thing PdlR can influence is set up and no Ferrari set up info would have any relevance to the McLaren. Indeed, even engineering information may not be relevant unless they were designing a new car. :confused:

Do people honestly think MC said to PdlR to put on another turn of wing and "hey presto", the McLaren suddenly flies?

So, I really struggle to see what data, witting or unwitting, MC could have supplied to a test driver that influences the car.

If there was data received in good faith that had no bearing on the car and didn't benefit the McLaren then I don't see a problem with this as it still comes down to 1 employee behaving dishonestly.

Scenario 2. MC passes to PdlR Ferrari documentation and PdlR is aware it is stolen. PdlR pases this to FA in a similar manner.

Now, THIS is different. It doesn't matter if the information was used or not. We don't know what happened to the data but it's no longer a rogue employee. As I said at the beginning of this affair, if it's more than just MC, then we've got big problems. Ron has publicly assured the FIA that nobody else was involved and given his word. If 2 drivers have been doing this, and there were asked before Ron issued that statement, then McLaren are sunk.

IF that is the case, the FIA must sanction those directly involved. If it's just these 3 people, then I would advocate a constructors points reduction for McLaren or possibly even erasing their points for the year. With the drivers involved, I suggest a ban for a minimum of 12 months from participating in any FIA organised event and with Alonso, the wiping of his WDC points.

This is all big "IF's" but I have always maintained that if this has spread past MC, that there be significant penalty. Any more would be draconian and I think anyone in the future would think twice before doing this and then give the idea up as a bad one.

ArrowsFA1
7th September 2007, 12:39
Just a thought...while the new evidence has not come directly from either Coughlan or Stepney, is it not possible that Coughlan is the source of the "allegation" mentioned in Mosley's letter?

leopard
7th September 2007, 13:36
Similar letters were also sent to Alonso, de la Rosa and Lewis Hamilton, asking them to provide any evidence they had in exchange for an 'amnesty' over any possible sanctions

This is sort of suggestion and is not the right methodological investigation upon
accusation pointed out at Mclaren, and the drivers in particular.

If Alonso cs have a feeling that they have had something may possibly someday put them in trouble, they may need to weigh the plus and minus of submitting such evidence for amnesty.

I'd suggest McLaren drivers not to submit anything if they are convinced with what they have were not those alleged evidence, let the FIA find it out themselves :p : :)

Ian McC
7th September 2007, 13:38
http://www.crash.net/news_view~cid~1~id~154085.htm

This really put's PDLR in the spotlight!

leopard
7th September 2007, 14:01
Wondering how would be effective Mosley sent the letter to all teams on possibility new finding to lasso Mclaren and the drivers may have been leaked data from Ferrari.

They, all the teams, have been quite busy on their research improving their own car. Honda, the worst struggling team this year is not seemingly really care to help solve this problem out for their own problem they have to burn the candle at both ends.

Team like Honda in case they know that McLaren magically come up with that proven reliability, they might want McLaren to share the secret and keep it for their own importance, regardless where it came from instead of telling it to FIA.

7th September 2007, 14:03
Now, I can't even imagine what data would benefit McLaren that would be useful to PdlR. The only thing PdlR can influence is set up and no Ferrari set up info would have any relevance to the McLaren. Indeed, even engineering information may not be relevant unless they were designing a new car. :confused:

Do people honestly think MC said to PdlR to put on another turn of wing and "hey presto", the McLaren suddenly flies?

Remember that Mclaren had no knowledge of Bridgestone tyres prior to this season, whereas the Ferrari's have been built around the Bridgestones and vice versa for a long time.

Set-up information would be an invaluable piece of information.

ArrowsFA1
7th September 2007, 14:22
Full letter from Mosley to McLaren drivers (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62107)

Flat.tyres
7th September 2007, 15:07
Remember that Mclaren had no knowledge of Bridgestone tyres prior to this season, whereas the Ferrari's have been built around the Bridgestones and vice versa for a long time.

Set-up information would be an invaluable piece of information.

I would question the relevance of this information.

Last years Stones were a completely different tyre. Wear rates, grain rates, useful productive life etc would be out the window especially considering the different chassis, characteristics and rev limits of the 2006 nFerrari and 2007 McLaren.

McLaren didn't get a batch of Stones last year and wonder what to do with them. They put them on the car and did thousands of miles in testing and simulation. By the start of the season, they were as ready as they would ever be to go racing and any info from Last years Ferrari would be irrellevant.

tinchote
7th September 2007, 15:21
I would question the relevance of this information.

Last years Stones were a completely different tyre. Wear rates, grain rates, useful productive life etc would be out the window especially considering the different chassis, characteristics and rev limits of the 2006 nFerrari and 2007 McLaren.

McLaren didn't get a batch of Stones last year and wonder what to do with them. They put them on the car and did thousands of miles in testing and simulation. By the start of the season, they were as ready as they would ever be to go racing and any info from Last years Ferrari would be irrellevant.

From the little I know, the difference between the Michelins and the Bridgestones was a conceptual one (different working principle). So, besides any testing, I would assume that concrete information about the performance of the tyre on each track would be very useful, even if the tyre compound changes.

7th September 2007, 15:22
I would question the relevance of this information.

Last years Stones were a completely different tyre. Wear rates, grain rates, useful productive life etc would be out the window especially considering the different chassis, characteristics and rev limits of the 2006 nFerrari and 2007 McLaren.

McLaren didn't get a batch of Stones last year and wonder what to do with them. They put them on the car and did thousands of miles in testing and simulation. By the start of the season, they were as ready as they would ever be to go racing and any info from Last years Ferrari would be irrellevant.


While it is true that the 2007 spec Bridgestone tyre is significantly different in terms of wear-rates to the previous compounds, such things as weight-transfer and pitch sensitivity in the set-up of a competitors car would still be relevant in terms of the tyres friction circle.

Any information about a successful rivals set-up would be useful.

Just look at how badly Renault have been affected by the switch to the current Bridgestone. Unfortunately for Renault, Pat Symonds wasn't given a 780 page document.

ArrowsFA1
7th September 2007, 16:19
The idea that teams need to "steal" information from other teams to gain an advantage doesn't really wash. You only need to look at the Williams front wing this weekend to see that concepts and ideas get copied frequently.

Perhaps it's only a matter of time before the FIA asks Frank who provided his team with the information that helped them come up with this:

MAX_THRUST
7th September 2007, 16:40
Tamburello.............I think you may be more right than what you realise. As much as I feel this whole thing is just another case of Ferrari not winning the Championship ,I feel they have to make wild accusations about other teams when they aren't winning comfortably, there have been other issues in the past of alledged cheating by teams, so don't ask for quotes or anything.

Ithink the issue with tyres could be the one thing that will drop Ron and his boys in the craphouse. Information on running with Bridgestones could be in valuable. However building a car that is different to a Ferrari, and then adding a feature of the Ferrari onto it does not make that car faster. In some cases it would make the car slower. It may be that the McClarens did a better job with their design.

Either way this could destroy this years championship for all the teams. Ferrari is not a team that would care that much if they did ruin anyone elses or their own reputation. Ferrari fans seem to have short memories.......but then so do I. As for the casual fan, well this will stick in their minds next season, "whats the point they all cheat in F1". Its just like having Michael back in the Ferrari again....

Or is it simply some people can't bare the thought of a black man winning the championship. Any more wild accusations could be thrown into the mix here, cause at the end of the day even when we find out the truth, will it really be the truth, and will any of us agree on it??? Doubt it!!

Enjoy Sundays race, cause that is what it is all about the racing. Sooner F1 gets spec cars and customer cars the better.

janneppi
7th September 2007, 16:45
While it is true that the 2007 spec Bridgestone tyre is significantly different in terms of wear-rates to the previous compounds, such things as weight-transfer and pitch sensitivity in the set-up of a competitors car would still be relevant in terms of the tyres friction circle.

Any information about a successful rivals set-up would be useful.

Just look at how badly Renault have been affected by the switch to the current Bridgestone. Unfortunately for Renault, Pat Symonds wasn't given a 780 page document.
I guess the Ferrari dossier really was spread around, BMW must have it also, last year they were barely in points with Michelins, where as this year with Bridgestone, they are the third best team.
;)

trumperZ06
7th September 2007, 17:03
Full letter from Mosley to McLaren drivers (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62107)

:rolleyes: Looks like Mad Max and his cronies are on...

"A FISHING EXPEDITION".

;) I don't see any "specifics" listed.... just allegations !!!

BDunnell
7th September 2007, 17:34
I guess the Ferrari dossier really was spread around, BMW must have it also, last year they were barely in points with Michelins, where as this year with Bridgestone, they are the third best team.
;)

Yes. Arrest them all now!

mjk
7th September 2007, 17:35
According to the story at grandprix.com (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns19576.html)
There is speculation that teams who would like to have Alonzo in 2008 (Flavio Briatore comes to mind) may be furnishing info to the FIA under the hopes that, if McLaren is banned from the championship in 2008, he will be available to drive for another team. I would imagine that there must be something in his contract that says that if the team cannot provide him a ride he is released from contractual obligations to them. I'd imagine the same applies to Lewis Hamilton. Boy, is this a dog-eat-dog game, or what?

Flat.tyres
7th September 2007, 17:38
:rolleyes: Looks like Mad Max and his cronies are on...

"A FISHING EXPEDITION".

;) I don't see any "specifics" listed.... just allegations !!!

Precisely.

At the moment, there is an allergation (wonder where from) that MC gave some data to PdlR who passed it onto FA who sent it to RD's granny who subsequently built a new Ferrari and sold it to Steve Fosset saying it was a new prototype round the world plane.

So, the FIA then get on the school loud speaker and say "whoever's taken Mrs Grimmels piles cushion had better return it within the next 5 mins. We are going to leave Mrs Grimmels office so the culprit can put it back otherwise they will be in REAL trouble".

or something like that ;)

Just image it cant you. Max has PdlR, FA and LH at their desks. Max questions LH and says "we know it was you Lewis so just tell the truth on naughty Ron and nobody will really get into trouble. FA is bouncing in his chair like Hermoiney Granger dying to give the answer and PdlR is looking like a naughty school boy in the corner trying to look innocent. :D

Tazio
7th September 2007, 19:55
Mark me well! The evidence referred to in this article will take McLaren down! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/motorsport.html?in_article_id=480428&in_page_id=1954

mstillhere
7th September 2007, 20:13
The idea that teams need to "steal" information from other teams to gain an advantage doesn't really wash. You only need to look at the Williams front wing this weekend to see that concepts and ideas get copied frequently.

Perhaps it's only a matter of time before the FIA asks Frank who provided his team with the information that helped them come up with this:

So what you are saying is that having secrets is irrelevant? So, should we expect all teams posting online the results of all their findings, set ups, results, future plans and so on so that anybody can help themselves? Should the leading teams do everything they can in order to spare the "slower" teams from actually coming up with important solutions to issues on their own? I bet you Renault and BMW would love that! Toyota?? Honda?? Are you kidding me? I think we should be able appreciate the difference between copying and stealing first hand information if not....well...that's very troubling to me. Please everybody...steal from each other.....it's ok! Oh, please.....

Tazio
7th September 2007, 20:37
So what you are saying is that having secrets is irrelevant? So, should we expect all teams posting online the results of all their findings, set ups, results, future plans and so on so that anybody can help themselves? Should the leading teams do everything they can in order to spare the "slower" teams from actually coming up with important solutions to issues on their own? I bet you Renault and BMW would love that! Toyota?? Honda?? Are you kidding me? I think we should be able appreciate the difference between copying and stealing first hand information if not....well...that's very troubling to me. Please everybody...steal from each other.....it's ok! Oh, please.....

I think the opinion in this article (although a little grandios, and sensational) speaks to the gravity of the situation

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=65495&newlang=&topic=7&catid=1

BDunnell
7th September 2007, 21:44
So what you are saying is that having secrets is irrelevant? So, should we expect all teams posting online the results of all their findings, set ups, results, future plans and so on so that anybody can help themselves? Should the leading teams do everything they can in order to spare the "slower" teams from actually coming up with important solutions to issues on their own? I bet you Renault and BMW would love that! Toyota?? Honda?? Are you kidding me? I think we should be able appreciate the difference between copying and stealing first hand information if not....well...that's very troubling to me. Please everybody...steal from each other.....it's ok! Oh, please.....

I don't think that was what Arrows' post was saying at all. I'm sure you appreciate the fact that it is possible for one team to suddenly improve its performance, or take a leap forward, without the benefit of any stolen information or other forms of skulduggery? Sadly, amongst a lot of F1 'enthusiasts' nowadays, the assumption is automatically made that the team in question must be cheating, whether or not allegations like the ones currently enveloping F1 exist.

In this case, I still consider it extremely doubtful for various reasons others have given that McLaren has gained anything from any Ferrari documents, but I do recognise that this isn't necessarily the point.

BDunnell
7th September 2007, 21:45
I think the opinion in this article (although a little grandios, and sensational) speaks to the gravity of the situation

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=65495&newlang=&topic=7&catid=1

It's (or, if I was to adopt the style of that article, 'Its') also very badly written.

Big Ben
7th September 2007, 21:47
Let's look on the bright side.

If McLaren get kicked out of the championship we'll still have a title fight between the Ferrari drivers and it'll be even closer than the one we have now.

OK. You have to look at it from a Tifosi point of view but you have to admit, I'm not wrong! :D

no thanks. I´ll quit watching!
I believe McLaren will get punished in one way or another. All this story about the evidence is useless. They appealed their own decision at Ferrari´s request so if they have this kind of influence I don´t think they'll accept anything but "guilty".
we all could see that FIA doesn´t need rules, regulations or whateverto enforce a penalty. anyway... thanks God their regulation is so ambiguous that they can do whatever they want. I recall they have an article that punish whatever they want whenever they want.

mstillhere
7th September 2007, 21:50
I think the opinion in this article (although a little grandios, and sensational) speaks to the gravity of the situation

http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=65495&newlang=&topic=7&catid=1

It's an interesting article, thank you. The reason why I like articles like this is because I don't see the author overlooking the seriousness of the crime, because stealing other people's property, last time I checked.....is a crime punishible by law, as we have seen in the past (i.e. the Toyota case) and that's what could happen to Stepney, btw and his friend Coughlan (?) at McLaren as well. Actually, speaking of Coughlan (or whatever), I can't understand why McLaren has not fired him yet. Could it be that maybe firing him would too harsh of a punishment after all the trouble he caused at McLaren?

Daika
7th September 2007, 22:02
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070907204845.shtml

quotes from de la Rosa-Alonso email:

Do you know that I've found out how Ferrari is able to get its tires to work to perfection?" de la Rosa was quoted as writing to Alonso earlier this year.

He added: "Nigel Stepney told Mike Coughlan."

"I don't believe it," Alonso reportedly replied.

Wheter it is true or not, only time will tell

wmcot
7th September 2007, 22:19
http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070907204845.shtml

quotes from de la Rosa-Alonso email:

Do you know that I've found out how Ferrari is able to get its tires to work to perfection?" de la Rosa was quoted as writing to Alonso earlier this year.

He added: "Nigel Stepney told Mike Coughlan."

"I don't believe it," Alonso reportedly replied.

Wheter it is true or not, only time will tell

I saw the same quotes on:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/07092007/13/newspaper-quotes-de-la-rosa-alonso-email.html

If this turns out to be true, McLaren are done for this season (at least), Ron's integrity is down the tubes, De la Rosa and Alonso are off to new jobs, and this season will go down in history!

On the bright side, maybe it will bring a halt to the temptation for espionage in F1 teams in the future. It's one thing to see a device on someone else's car and attempt to copy it and integrate it into your designs, it's quite another thing to be given a team's design and setup documentation.

We'll see next week if this turns out to be the truth or just tabloid journalism.

BDunnell
7th September 2007, 22:22
I saw the same quotes on:

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/07092007/13/newspaper-quotes-de-la-rosa-alonso-email.html

If this turns out to be true, McLaren are done for this season (at least), Ron's integrity is down the tubes, De la Rosa and Alonso are off to new jobs, and this season will go down in history!

On the bright side, maybe it will bring a halt to the temptation for espionage in F1 teams in the future. It's one thing to see a device on someone else's car and attempt to copy it and integrate it into your designs, it's quite another thing to be given a team's design and setup documentation.

We'll see next week if this turns out to be the truth or just tabloid journalism.

I would have thought that the Shadow/Arrows case almost three decades ago would have stamped out theft of intellectual property in F1, but there's rarely anything much new under the sun.

wmcot
7th September 2007, 22:41
I would have thought that the Shadow/Arrows case almost three decades ago would have stamped out theft of intellectual property in F1, but there's rarely anything much new under the sun.

Yep. History does tend to repeat itself! (Then again, so does stupidity!) :)

Bagwan
7th September 2007, 22:53
This just gets murkier , the more time passes .

Now we get drivers involved , but offer no sanction if they rat out the employer .
And , curiously , no mention of squeeky clean Hamilton in all of this .

Only a short while ago , Alonso was complaining that Hamilton was being gifted his set-up , and now we find that he was gifted the Ferrrari secrets ?
Perhaps what he wanted to keep to himself was not his own in the first place .

mstillhere
7th September 2007, 23:18
well, it looks like, according to Marca, that Alonso has already had a little talk with the FIA (http://www.marca.com/edicion/marca/motor/formula1/es/desarrollo/1033492.html)

raikk
7th September 2007, 23:40
this is getting ridiculous...in another 10 years Formula 1 as a sport will consist of races being run by politicians to see who can drive their car to the house of Parliment first :rolleyes:

BDunnell
7th September 2007, 23:44
this is getting ridiculous...in another 10 years Formula 1 as a sport will consist of races being run by politicians to see who can drive their car to the house of Parliment first :rolleyes:

I once watched the motor race between members of the House of Lords and the House of Commons, and it was bloody good!

Tazio
8th September 2007, 00:02
It's (or, if I was to adopt the style of that article, 'Its') also very badly written.

In the future I will only post links that are stylized to literary standards that
you find acceptable… Not!

BDunnell
8th September 2007, 00:53
In the future I will only post links that are stylized to literary standards that
you find acceptable… Not!

All I am saying is that it did nothing for the credibility of the article as a whole, no matter what my opinion is of the contents.

Tazio
8th September 2007, 01:02
This just gets murkier , the more time passes .

Now we get drivers involved , but offer no sanction if they rat out the employer .
And , curiously , no mention of squeeky clean Hamilton in all of this .

Only a short while ago , Alonso was complaining that Hamilton was being gifted his set-up , and now we find that he was gifted the Ferrrari secrets ?
Perhaps what he wanted to keep to himself was not his own in the first place .

If this dialogue between Pete and Fred is accurate, I would draw a slightly different conclusion/hypothesis. 1: It makes perfect sense that the developmental/test/alternate driver would be the first, and only driver to be privy to this information (although Coughlin, I'm pretty sure if he had a brain in his head didn't directly tell Pete that they were going to test a package who's concept came from data secreted from Ferrari through clandestine, and illegal activity) as he is the first one that likely was involved in any attempt to adapt it to the Mclaren on the test track. 2: If he did know and wanted to confide in someone, going to his countryman is a logical choice! After all there probably isn't a whole lot of other info that Pete has to impress Fred, a reining world champ with. 3: Hamilton even unknowingly would receive the exact same advantage Fred had received! Sans guilt!!

There you go! Innuendo, decorated with speculation, wrapped up in a conspiracy theory!

Tazio
8th September 2007, 01:22
http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&month=9&year=2007&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=27627

This is the link to the following letter. Apologies if this letter or a link containing its contents has already been posted!

The FIA has noted the various reports in the international press regarding the discovery of new evidence in the Vodafone McLaren Mercedes investigation. Therefore, in the interests of complete transparency the sport’s governing body opted to publish the text of the letter written to Fernando Alonso, Pedro De La Rosa and Lewis Hamilton, dated August 31st, 2007.



It must be stressed that readers should be able to clearly see from the contents of the following letter that the three McLaren drivers were required to cooperate fully with the FIA in the completion of its investigation as it is the duty of all those involved in the sport to ensure the fairness and legitimacy of the FIA Formula One World Championship.



Dear Mr De La Rosa,



As you will be aware, the FIA has recently investigated whether, how and to what extent McLaren was in possession of confidential Ferrari technical information. The FIA has subsequently been made aware of an allegation that one or more McLaren drivers may be in possession, or that such drivers have recently been in possession, of written evidence relevant to this investigation.



In the interests of the sport and the Championship it is important that the FIA as the regulator establishes unequivocally and rapidly whether or not this allegation has any basis in fact.



The FIA therefore formally requests that you produce copies of any relevant documents which may be in your possession or power of procurement and which may be relevant to this case. For these purposes “documents” includes all written materials such as emails, letters, electronic communications, text messages, notes, memoranda, drawings, diagrams, data,. or other material, stored in any physical, “hard copy” or electronic form.



In particular (though without limiting the generality of this request), the FIA wishes to receive copies of any electronic communications (howsoever conveyed or stored) which may be relevant to this case and which make reference to Ferrari, Nigel Stepney or any technical or other information coming from or connected with either Ferrari or Mr Stepney. In the event that you are aware of the existence or previous existence of any document falling within the above description but are not in a position to produce it, please describe the content of the document in question, the circumstances under which it came to your knowledge and the reasons why you are unable to produce it.



In the event that you are unsure as to whether any document falls within the above description, kindly submit it (or a description of it) and the FIA will assist in making a determination.



You will appreciate that there is a duty on all competitors and Super Licence holders to ensure the fairness and legitimacy of the Formula One World Championship. It is therefore imperative that if you do have any such information, you make it available to us without delay.



I can confirm, given the importance of this issue, that any information you may make available in response to this letter will not result in any proceedings against you under the International Sporting Code or the Formula One regulations. However, in the event that it later comes to light that you have withheld any potentially relevant information, serious consequences could follow.



We are sending identical letters to Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton. We look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience. Thank you very much for your co-operation.



Yours sincerely

Max Mosley

trumperZ06
8th September 2007, 01:59
:rolleyes: The problem (cheating) started at the Top !!!

Look at the history of Mad Max... Tight Wad Bernie... some of Ferrari's shananagans, and the FIA rules interputations.

;) Seems like everyone's been cheating for a number of years.

This is just another chapter in our little soap opera...

"As the Formula One World Turns".

It's becoming clear that... There is no "SPORT" left in Formula 1 .

Nothing surprises me anymore.

Cya,

Trumper :s mokin:

Kevincal
8th September 2007, 06:49
I'm sick of hearing about this so called "espionage" crap...lol. :D Good thing there's a race this weekend. :D

Blackburn Buccaneer
8th September 2007, 08:38
I'm sick of hearing about this so called "espionage" crap...lol. :D Good thing there's a race this weekend. :D

for my next novel: the ~780 page ferrari doc, is actually a piece of work created off site by braun, schumacher, and stepney. ergo, guilty but no punishment :s mokin:

Blackburn Buccaneer
8th September 2007, 08:52
chapter 1.
todt is mad that his guys created the blueprint for a new car, (this work has been going on for a couple of years without his knowledge), so there's no way in hell, he'll allow braun to return in a leadership position. :s mokin:

ICKE
8th September 2007, 13:34
Renault´s spanish leader Olivier Murguet has confirmed that the team is negotiating with Mclaren over Alonso´s return at this very moment.

Im just thinking out loud here but this could be a huge success for Renault. Lets assume Alonso wins in Monza and keeps his points after FIA punishes Mclaren.

FA drives the last races for Renault and has a pretty good chance to score 3rd places and win the championship. Briatore´s substandard season ends with a championship and they get their ace back. http://www.tifosi-club.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Dave B
8th September 2007, 14:44
FA drives the last races for Renault and has a pretty good chance to score 3rd places and win the championship. Briatore´s substandard season ends with a championship and they get their ace back. http://www.tifosi-club.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Even if Alonso did leave McLaren, and that's a pretty unlikely event in itself, there's no way he'd drive for another team in 2007.

Ron would never entertain such a thought, and why would Alonso sacrifice his shot at the Championship?

markabilly
8th September 2007, 16:18
Based on the quotes, the real key is what does Pedro have to say--the email exchange by itself proves nothing. Indeed, they better have something more than that email exchange cause that can easliy be dismissed.....

Pedro: " I have the secret to eternal life"
FA: "I do not believe it"




Pedro: " RD is dead"
FA: " I don't believe it"




Pedro: "Bernei erneie is a crook who only cares about his money"
FA:" I do not believe it"




Pedro: "LH is a child molester"
FA: " I do not bel...wait, do you you have photos ...."



Pedro: "NS told MC how ferrari is able to use their tires to perfection"
FA: " I do not believe it"

Later FA on phone to Pedro: "OK tell me the secret from NS, how is it that they are faster?"

Pedro: "NS told MC that Ferrari cheats all the time....."
FA: "SO, what else is new about that...."

:rolleyes:

Enchanter
8th September 2007, 20:50
Hi Guys, great forum, been lurking for a long time, but this is my first post.

The first thing that came to mind when I read about the latest twist in the spy saga, was what Flavio said a while back, about how useful the tyre weight distribution information from the dossiers would be.

"But had I only known Ferrari's weight distribution, or how big their tank is, if I had a bit of those documents, then we surely wouldn't be in this situation today. We would certainly have gained in performance."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61334

Does he still manage Alonso? Perhaps it's a way to get him out if the Macca and back to Renault or another team thats willing to pay mega $$$'s. Right now though, Alonso would be crazy to go to another team, as the Macca looks the class of the field at almost every circuit. But I guess a lot depends on next Thursday.

Hopefully we'll have more info, and a conclusion to this mess, Thursday. Either way, this championship will probably be remembered for all the wrong reasons, even though the racing has been really great.

Cheers

ioan
8th September 2007, 21:14
Some more news:



Italian media said Dennis was due to receive an "avviso di garanzia" from the prosecutor in Modena, a legal notification that he is suspected of a crime and is being investigated. However, it may not necessarily lead to a charge.

The notification refers to sporting fraud, embezzlement and the revealing of industrial secrets.

Former Ferrari engineer Nigel Stepney and McLaren chief designer Mike Coughlan, now suspended, have also been issued with such a notification along with another unnamed McLaren employee, media reports said.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62181

Bagwan
8th September 2007, 21:28
Fernando is out saying that he had no choice but to supply info to the FIA .

Interesting that the drivers have been given a "get out of jail free card" here , especially when the info is allegedly still helping them get the advantage .
Positions 1 and 2 in quals at Monza will not help thier case .

ioan
8th September 2007, 22:08
Fernando is out saying that he had no choice but to supply info to the FIA .

Interesting that the drivers have been given a "get out of jail free card" here , especially when the info is allegedly still helping them get the advantage .
Positions 1 and 2 in quals at Monza will not help thier case .

They might not get their licenses revoked or banned from further racing in F1, but if they are found guilty they for sure will not be awarded this seasons points and positions.

Daika
8th September 2007, 22:11
Fernando is out saying that he had no choice but to supply info to the FIA .

Interesting that the drivers have been given a "get out of jail free card" here , especially when the info is allegedly still helping them get the advantage .
Positions 1 and 2 in quals at Monza will not help thier case .

Doesn't really matter if Mclaren score a 1-2 in Monza if they are found guilty.

markabilly
8th September 2007, 23:00
Once again all it appears FA can say based on emails, is that Pedro told him that NS told MC something....and his response is "I do not believe it..." proves nothing and if all FA can say is that is what Pedro said.....

and FA's ambigous response can only be construed as incredulous or disbelief and is hearsay.....then there is no evidence of anything...

Does not prove anything. Pedro can always say it was a joke..... :s pin: and FAis not really ratting out anyone......

On the other hand, if Pedro does have details and can show how it was implemented in testing, and decides he better come clean to save his permit............. :eek: :eek:

If he does, then RD better be passing out his kool aid ASAP and hoping everyone is drinking :beer:

Valve Bounce
9th September 2007, 02:13
Does the information Pedro allegedly passed on to Alonso have anything to do with tire (tyre) heaters which did not comply with FIA regulations?

There are so many suggestions and accusations going round that I'm not sure what the real issue is.

I await next friday with keen anticipation.

markabilly
9th September 2007, 02:36
Does the information Pedro allegedly passed on to Alonso have anything to do with tire (tyre) heaters which did not comply with FIA regulations?

There are so many suggestions and accusations going round that I'm not sure what the real issue is.

I await next friday with keen anticipation.


No question it ain't over till the fat lady sings...has Pedro been putting on a lot of weight lately and not drinking his kool aid..... :confused:

maybe Flavio Flatuence will need a new test driver to help the returning prodigal son remember all thos secrets he learned during his brief stay at a certain neighbor's house...... :D

markabilly
9th September 2007, 02:38
That is assumming Pedro knows how to sing...Parvratti would be proud

race aficionado
9th September 2007, 02:44
Hi Guys, great forum, been lurking for a long time, but this is my first post.

. . . . .

Hopefully we'll have more info, and a conclusion to this mess, Thursday. Either way, this championship will probably be remembered for all the wrong reasons, even though the racing has been really great.

Cheers

welcome to the forum Enchanter.

yes, it is a pitty that the circus factor wants to take over the racin' factor.

. . . but what else can you expect on this soap opera saga that is Bernies F1 Circus.

again, welcome to our forum.

:s mokin:

Dazz9908
9th September 2007, 03:49
IMO, the Ferrari & FIA Case against McLaren, is falling apart and requesting any Info from Drivers is the final desperate act to nail RD and team Macca.
There is only limited suspect facts and no real substance.

I have heard whispers, that Nigel Stepney wanted Ross B's job, but was refused. Nigel desperate, play a bad card of Threating the little Toad by "give it to me or I'll leave and give away Ferrari's secrets to my new team!".

The little Toad hated being threatened like that and found away to get rid of Nigel and never letting him work in F1 again with out paying him a cent (in so, protecting Ferrari technical Info), Also Implicating his biggest enemy & rival RD and McLaren for spying + cheating, As He despised the fact that team Macca was doing a better job on the tyres the control.

so, IMO, and My opinion only that Jean Todt is the real villain hear and Mad Max is prepared to help ( the George Bush and John Howard of F1).

the Real victims are RD McLaren and US the F1 fans.

Valve Bounce
9th September 2007, 04:12
IMO, and My opinion only that Jean Todt is the real villain hear and Mad Max is prepared to help ( the George Bush and John Howard of F1).

the Real victims are RD McLaren and US the F1 fans.

Somewhere along the way, you forgot about Elvis. :rolleyes:

Tazio
9th September 2007, 04:38
Somewhere along the way, you forgot about Elvis. :rolleyes:
and The real power behind the Ferrari juggernaut...Jimmy Hoffa

mstillhere
9th September 2007, 05:59
IMO, the Ferrari & FIA Case against McLaren, is falling apart and requesting any Info from Drivers is the final desperate act to nail RD and team Macca.
There is only limited suspect facts and no real substance.

I have heard whispers, that Nigel Stepney wanted Ross B's job, but was refused. Nigel desperate, play a bad card of Threating the little Toad by "give it to me or I'll leave and give away Ferrari's secrets to my new team!".

The little Toad hated being threatened like that and found away to get rid of Nigel and never letting him work in F1 again with out paying him a cent (in so, protecting Ferrari technical Info), Also Implicating his biggest enemy & rival RD and McLaren for spying + cheating, As He despised the fact that team Macca was doing a better job on the tyres the control.

so, IMO, and My opinion only that Jean Todt is the real villain hear and Mad Max is prepared to help ( the George Bush and John Howard of F1).

the Real victims are RD McLaren and US the F1 fans.


Actually, according to Italian media, the story goes that Stepney wanted to go to McLAren, which was waiting for him with open arms. BUT...Ferrari did not agree and then Sepney, looking for revenge, had the BRLLIANT idea of which the whole world knows about

Tazio
9th September 2007, 06:27
the Real victims are RD McLaren and US the F1 fans.

In the "End" N.S., and M.C. stand to be the biggest victims.
There are a couple guys from Palermo that wouldn't think twice about shoving a cap up their @$$'
I think a measly $50,000.oo would cover it!
Those guys don't play!

wmcot
9th September 2007, 07:35
IMO, the Ferrari & FIA Case against McLaren, is falling apart and requesting any Info from Drivers is the final desperate act to nail RD and team Macca.
There is only limited suspect facts and no real substance.

I have heard whispers, that Nigel Stepney wanted Ross B's job, but was refused. Nigel desperate, play a bad card of Threating the little Toad by "give it to me or I'll leave and give away Ferrari's secrets to my new team!".

The little Toad hated being threatened like that and found away to get rid of Nigel and never letting him work in F1 again with out paying him a cent (in so, protecting Ferrari technical Info), Also Implicating his biggest enemy & rival RD and McLaren for spying + cheating, As He despised the fact that team Macca was doing a better job on the tyres the control.

so, IMO, and My opinion only that Jean Todt is the real villain hear and Mad Max is prepared to help ( the George Bush and John Howard of F1).

the Real victims are RD McLaren and US the F1 fans.

Hey, I want some of whatever you're smoking!!!

ArrowsFA1
9th September 2007, 10:23
Mark me well! The evidence referred to in this article will take McLaren down! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/sport/motorsport.html?in_article_id=480428&in_page_id=1954
When a Daily Mail article that re-hashes the FA/PDLR email story is used as "conclusive evidence" there is something wrong somewhere :p

So what you are saying is that having secrets is irrelevant?
No, not at all.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070907204845.shtml

quotes from de la Rosa-Alonso email:

Wheter it is true or not, only time will tell
Whether that account is true or not seems to be irrelevant. It's yet another example of rumours and speculation that seem to count as "evidence" in this case :rolleyes:

ShiftingGears
9th September 2007, 11:43
I'll agree with the Alonso leaving McLaren speculation when Alonso does leave McLaren, and not before. I just find it simply unbelievable.

janneppi
9th September 2007, 12:41
When a Daily Mail article that re-hashes the FA/PDLR email story is used as "conclusive evidence" there is something wrong somewhere :p

Whether that account is true or not seems to be irrelevant. It's yet another example of rumours and speculation that seem to count as "evidence" in this case :rolleyes:
It sort of reminds me of yesterday's Dilbert strip. :p :
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20070908.html

markabilly
9th September 2007, 16:10
First I am puzzled by the original ruling as to being in possession by MC, a high ranker, but no evidence of use, that does not justify a penalty---weeelll duuuuuhh.....

In the absence of the cars to inspect and examine as they existed back then, esp. with their set ups, one could do this stuff all day without penalty....

If you have it by someone in a position to put it to use as MC, that should be grounds for a penalty. Period.


OTOH this kind of chit-chat among drivers means nothing...


As to Ferrari, as predicted by many about the departure of MS, who was by far the true overall leader of the team, coupled with Brawn...it was only a question of time before the team slid off into backstabbing, silly circus perfromances....Massa running out of gas in the pitlane, cars breaking up per the just concluded Monza GP.... and Kimi lacking top end speed at the end of the straight, and so on....Ferrari days of glory are done unless some drastic changes occur....

So why should MCLarent felt like they needed to cheat, when all they really needed to do was wait for the implosion at ferrari??????

markabilly
9th September 2007, 16:43
According to police sources in Italy, though, the FIA will be given evidence that there were “hundreds” of telephone conversations and text messages between Stepney and Coughlan and that the information passed between the two was far more detailed than has been revealed so far. If proved, McLaren’s contention that none of the information could be used to improve the performance of their car for this season would be severely compromised.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2414584.ece

But as to how it will all turn out is forshadowed by the words of bernie Ernie as to who he would "love to see .... win the WDC" and why;

(HINT: It ain't the Spanard)

"Hamilton’s talent has world-wide appeal, even here at the home of Ferrari, where a brief appearance for an autograph session after free practice on Friday brought the pit lane to a standstill. “I would love to see Lewis win the world championship,” said Ecclestone. “I think everyone would. Schumacher’s gone, now we’ve got this new guy and he’s wonderful. If you took his hat off and you put Schumacher’s hat on, you’d think: ‘Christ, Schumacher’s back’. He’s as good as Michael, certainly on the track.”

Now folks come on, do you really think that Maxiepad will ruin that for the good buddy Bernie........

mstillhere
10th September 2007, 05:52
So why should MCLaren felt like they needed to cheat, when all they really needed to do was wait for the implosion at ferrari??????

Totally agree with you on this one

mstillhere
10th September 2007, 05:53
Now folks come on, do you really think that Maxiepad will ruin that for the good buddy Bernie........

yes

ArrowsFA1
10th September 2007, 09:37
Coughlan insists McLaren gained no benefit from leaked Ferrari papers

McLaren's suspended chief designer, Mike Coughlan, has broken his silence on the Ferrari "spying" dispute to back up Ron Dennis's claims that none of the information he received had served to improve his own team's performance.
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2164960,00.html

Also:

Rumours were circulating at Monza that following inquiries into the leak of confidential technical information from Ferrari that [McLaren] would get a clean bill of health only if [Ron Dennis] resigned his post.
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2165884,00.html

ioan
10th September 2007, 10:25
Coughlan insists McLaren gained no benefit from leaked Ferrari papers


As if a thief has any credibility. :rolleyes:

Ranger
10th September 2007, 11:01
I'll reserve any opinion until Thursday.

Daniel
10th September 2007, 11:03
Coughlan insists McLaren gained no benefit from leaked Ferrari papers

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2164960,00.html

Also:

http://sport.guardian.co.uk/motorsport/story/0,,2165884,00.html
Arrows. Can you PM me your credit card details? I just want them for reference :D I'm not going to gain any benefit from them. Promise :D

ArrowsFA1
10th September 2007, 11:53
Arrows. Can you PM me your credit card details? I just want them for reference :D I'm not going to gain any benefit from them. Promise :D
:laugh: Check your PM box :D

Daniel
10th September 2007, 12:27
:laugh: Check your PM box :D
:D

This whole thing is a farce though. You should never be in posession of another teams technical data. By default you benefit from knowing where the other team are at in regards to development. If you know your engine still has an advantage you can focus on something where you know (because of the technical data?) that you are behind in like aero or drivetrain and so on.

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 12:38
It's an interesting article, thank you. The reason why I like articles like this is because I don't see the author overlooking the seriousness of the crime, because stealing other people's property, last time I checked.....is a crime punishible by law, as we have seen in the past (i.e. the Toyota case) and that's what could happen to Stepney, btw and his friend Coughlan (?) at McLaren as well. Actually, speaking of Coughlan (or whatever), I can't understand why McLaren has not fired him yet. Could it be that maybe firing him would too harsh of a punishment after all the trouble he caused at McLaren?

There was only one theft as far as I know and that was committed by a Ferrari employee and therefore Ferrari are responsible for it.

Dzeidzei
10th September 2007, 12:43
As if a thief has any credibility. :rolleyes:

Exactly. The problem now is that you cannot believe anything the Woking boys say. They have been lying their eyes out from at least March onwards and even after the last decision (not to punish them) thought they´d get away with it.

It´ll be a sour wdc if Kimi or Massa wins it in court. But it´ll be even more sour if McCheat get away with their dishonesty.

Daniel
10th September 2007, 12:44
If Coughlan had blown the whistle that Stepney had attempted to release data and not accepted it then perhaps it would be that simple flat tyres :)

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 12:45
It sort of reminds me of yesterday's Dilbert strip. :p :
http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20070908.html

Spot on :laugh:

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 12:55
If Coughlan had blown the whistle that Stepney had attempted to release data and not accepted it then perhaps it would be that simple flat tyres :)

What NS intentions were are irrelevant to the actual crime committed which was theft. MC is guilty of receiving stolen information and NS of stealing and supplying it (allegedly). McLaren are responsible under the FIA sporting code for their employees actions and have been found Guilty. In theory, you could say that Ferrari are just as guilty for their employees actions.

Ferrari received no benefit from losing their data and McLaren from receiving it didn't get a benefit because it was a rogue employee so although technically guilty, they were not punished.

If it transpires that they received benefit and it wasn't just MC, then they will be punished but that hasn't been proved yet and is still an unsubstantiated allergation or rumour.

We do have a comment from the man who should know, MC, saying they didn't benefit and seeing as Ferrari were quite happy to take his word for the misdemenours, I think we should also in this instance.

Daniel
10th September 2007, 13:03
What NS intentions were are irrelevant to the actual crime committed which was theft. MC is guilty of receiving stolen information and NS of stealing and supplying it (allegedly). McLaren are responsible under the FIA sporting code for their employees actions and have been found Guilty. In theory, you could say that Ferrari are just as guilty for their employees actions.

Ferrari received no benefit from losing their data and McLaren from receiving it didn't get a benefit because it was a rogue employee so although technically guilty, they were not punished.

If it transpires that they received benefit and it wasn't just MC, then they will be punished but that hasn't been proved yet and is still an unsubstantiated allergation or rumour.

We do have a comment from the man who should know, MC, saying they didn't benefit and seeing as Ferrari were quite happy to take his word for the misdemenours, I think we should also in this instance.
Yes but you can't penalize Ferrari for something which clearly doesn't benefit them ;) That would be like penalizing McLaren if Hamilton took a bribe and drove into a wall to give Ferrari an advantage. In a sense Ferrari are irrelevant in this case even if one of their employees did leak data.

How does one prove that they did or did not benefit? ;)

Ranger
10th September 2007, 13:08
Had Stepney not been involved, perhaps this whole thing would never have happened. More importantly however, if Stepney had not been involved, McLaren would have already been had left, right and centre. Hence I don't think the line of capital punishment will be taken by the FIA in this case.

ArrowsFA1
10th September 2007, 13:08
Yes but you can't penalize Ferrari for something which clearly doesn't benefit them ;)
Well if McLaren get kicked out of both championships who will benefit most? :p :

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 13:09
Yes but you can't penalize Ferrari for something which clearly doesn't benefit them ;) That would be like penalizing McLaren if Hamilton took a bribe and drove into a wall to give Ferrari an advantage. In a sense Ferrari are irrelevant in this case even if one of their employees did leak data.

How does one prove that they did or did not benefit? ;)

Ferrari didn't benefit from the theft but are responsible for the conduct of their employees. This is what McLaren were found guilty and at the time, there was no evidence to suggest they benefitted from the actions of a self seeking rogue employee.

If it transpires that this is not the case, then it will be different but that is the facts at the moment.

ioan
10th September 2007, 13:10
There was only one theft as far as I know and that was committed by a Ferrari employee and therefore Ferrari are responsible for it.

If a thief steals your TV set while you're not home it's your fault than! Wicked logic you have there. :s

Bagwan
10th September 2007, 13:10
Pino Allievi is out now saying that he invented the conversation between Pedro and Fernando .

Scandals all around .

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 13:24
If a thief steals your TV set while you're not home it's your fault than! Wicked logic you have there. :s

Would you like to quote the Law that McLaren were found guilty of please before making foolish comments.

seppefan
10th September 2007, 13:28
Renault has reportedly been backing Ferrari's campaign for a sanction against McLaren, but Marca claims that Dennis is in possession of knowledge that could "cause the immediate exclusion from the championship of the French team".

Remember Spyker has the Toro Rosso plans and Toyota some Ferrari plans so that will be 8 cars out if the FIA is consistent.......

Daniel
10th September 2007, 13:37
Would you like to quote the Law that McLaren were found guilty of please before making foolish comments.
What? :mark:

ArrowsFA1
10th September 2007, 13:43
Pino Allievi is out now saying that he invented the conversation between Pedro and Fernando.
Rumours, half-truths and now fictional accounts :rolleyes:

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 13:43
What? :mark:

151. Breach of rules
Any of the following offences in addition to any offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules :
a) All bribery or attempt, directly or indirectly, to bribe any person having official duties in relation to a competition or being employed in any manner in connection with a competition and the acceptance of, or offer to accept, any bribe by such an official or employee.
b) Any action having as its object the entry or participation in a competition of an automobile known to be ineligible therefor.
c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.

Daniel
10th September 2007, 13:48
151. Breach of rules
Any of the following offences in addition to any offences specifically referred to previously, shall be deemed to be a breach of these rules :
a) All bribery or attempt, directly or indirectly, to bribe any person having official duties in relation to a competition or being employed in any manner in connection with a competition and the acceptance of, or offer to accept, any bribe by such an official or employee.
b) Any action having as its object the entry or participation in a competition of an automobile known to be ineligible therefor.
c) Any fraudulent conduct or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally.
We're not talking about a fuel tank being larger than it should be. You can define specifications and so on but what's happened is clearly wrong.

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 14:12
We're not talking about a fuel tank being larger than it should be. You can define specifications and so on but what's happened is clearly wrong.

Clearly. Nobody disputes that but if two employees from respective teams act rogue in this matter, then how are either of their employers to blame is my arguement. IF McLaren have used the dossier, then it's a whole different kettle of fish.

Daniel
10th September 2007, 14:16
How can they prove they didn't benefit. There are certain things you don't do unless you want to benefit. Should Arrows send me his credit card details because I promise not to benefit? No. Because the only reason I would want to have those details is so I can benefit from them.

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 14:19
How can they prove they didn't benefit. There are certain things you don't do unless you want to benefit. Should Arrows send me his credit card details because I promise not to benefit? No. Because the only reason I would want to have those details is so I can benefit from them.

What are you argueing about. Do you know the history of this case at all and if so, what point are you trying to make as I'm confused.

Who benefitted is Stepney and Coghlan were acting for their own best interests to the detriment of their respective employees? Surely just the two of them?

Daniel
10th September 2007, 14:22
What are you argueing about. Do you know the history of this case at all and if so, what point are you trying to make as I'm confused.

Who benefitted is Stepney and Coghlan were acting for their own best interests to the detriment of their respective employees? Surely just the two of them?
How does coughlan benefit from having Ferrari documents? By going to work and using it to benefit the team.

dime3
10th September 2007, 14:26
This is evidence Italian-style, remember!
:D :D

dime3
10th September 2007, 14:28
How does coughlan benefit from having Ferrari documents? By going to work and using it to benefit the team.
The rumour is that they were trying to make the switch to another team together. It wouldn’t surprise me if Coghlan had passed things to Stepney too. Not that Ferrari would admit to it if he had!!!

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 14:31
The rumour is that they were trying to make the switch to another team together. It wouldn’t surprise me if Coghlan had passed things to Stepney too. Not that Ferrari would admit to it if he had!!!

That's been my point all along. If they wanted to go to Honda with a task force (as reported) then isn't it reasonable that Couglan showed him his bits when Stepney dropped his pants?

I would love it if Nigel dropped that bomb shell under oath.

ArrowsFA1
10th September 2007, 14:35
How can they prove they didn't benefit.
Isn't it the responsibility of those making the accusations to prove that they did benefit?

MAX_THRUST
10th September 2007, 14:36
It is all complete madness and needs to stop now. If Ferrari is incappable of keeping its top level employees from stealing items of a confidential nature, then there are some serious security issues within Ferrari, that must be addressed first.

Ferrari don't know when to admit they have messed up do they??? They didn't build the best car this year, well clearly someone has stollen information.

The fact that Mike had information I believe is down to Mike I don't feel the team should be to blame, and even if the McClaren car is a direct copy of the Ferrari then Ferrari deserve to loose the championship by not producing the goods with an identical machine, that someone has made better use of the Ferrari idea.

I do find it hard to believe in this day and age a designer of an F1 car would feel the need to steal another teams ideas. Each designer has there own plan at the start of the season, of what they think will work, its later on in the season all the teams start copying each other. Quick ban Wiliams for stealing the MErcs front wing.

This is playground stuff, the World of Formula 1 is turning into a stupid Forum like squabble....daft and detrimental to the future of F1. Bernie, and his cronies need to think carefully, what is worse, F1 without Ferrari, or F1 where common sense prevails and the integretty of the sport is maintained before any further damge is caused...........Sorry guys I feel better for that now.

dime3
10th September 2007, 14:42
Ah its all going too far. Worst case scenario will be a points deduction for Mclaren.

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 14:46
Don't appologise Max, I love your posts. :up: Don't feel the apologists will though ;)

Daniel
10th September 2007, 14:51
It is all complete madness and needs to stop now. If Ferrari is incappable of keeping its top level employees from stealing items of a confidential nature, then there are some serious security issues within Ferrari, that must be addressed first.

Ferrari don't know when to admit they have messed up do they??? They didn't build the best car this year, well clearly someone has stollen information.

The fact that Mike had information I believe is down to Mike I don't feel the team should be to blame, and even if the McClaren car is a direct copy of the Ferrari then Ferrari deserve to loose the championship by not producing the goods with an identical machine, that someone has made better use of the Ferrari idea.

I do find it hard to believe in this day and age a designer of an F1 car would feel the need to steal another teams ideas. Each designer has there own plan at the start of the season, of what they think will work, its later on in the season all the teams start copying each other. Quick ban Wiliams for stealing the MErcs front wing.

This is playground stuff, the World of Formula 1 is turning into a stupid Forum like squabble....daft and detrimental to the future of F1. Bernie, and his cronies need to think carefully, what is worse, F1 without Ferrari, or F1 where common sense prevails and the integretty of the sport is maintained before any further damge is caused...........Sorry guys I feel better for that now.
I think that's a very naive view on things.

If Ford went and stole Vauxhall's plans for a new car then that would be industrial espionage and would definitely go to court.

It's a spy case. If Ferrari wanted to give McLaren their plans they would have and then didn't.

Of course teams copy stuff. If teams saw Ferrari make a change to the outside of the car and it seemed to make the car faster then of course they would attempt to emulate them but that's different to having the blueprints. There's a difference between copying and stealing.

I was practically pushed over while trying to take a picture of the underneath of the rear of the suspension of the new Focus WRC in Australia in 2005. Teams take this thing seriously. Ferrari didn't just mail Coughlan those documents.........

markabilly
10th September 2007, 14:54
1) Person in possession of stolen property is and should presumed to be a thief and is benefitting by mere possession
2) for a company, that person must be someone high enough to use it to the advantage of the company
3)It is presumed that when one is in possession of property where the owner is known, and the owner did not consent to the possession, that the person has converted or is attempting to convert it to their own use.

All of the above is subject to being rebutted by proof that the person in possession was not in a position to make use of it for the company benefit, that there was no intent to convert it, because it was never used and was trying to return it to the rightful owner (it is called "lost and found" department)---but the burden is on the accussed to rebut the presumptions

Finally someone who acts to hide the commission of a crime by just hiding evidence of its commission, is now a party to the crime (hence MClaren telling MC, get it out of here, do this or do that, quit using our email system---no different that saying here is a shovel, go bury the body somewhere else besides our backyard)....and thereby aided the commission and becomes a party to the crime


But this chit chat among drivers proves nothing,

In the absence of the cars in their various set ups there is no physical evidence of a benefit (but NOT Necessary for theft conviction per above), but if Pedro sings, then the problem may become so MASSIVE that it explodes beyond containment :eek: :eek:

and no amount of Kool aid can put it out........

andreag
10th September 2007, 15:28
Please, start to apologize to Fernando and Pedro:

http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Other-sports/2007/09/102/F1-Journalist-admits-inventing-McLaren-quotes/

Valve Bounce
10th September 2007, 15:28
Arrows. Can you PM me your credit card details? I just want them for reference :D I'm not going to gain any benefit from them. Promise :D

I thought you were going to tell him a relative of his in Africa dieed, leaving him 15 million pounds. And you need the details to send him the money, but don't tell the authorities as it is all hush hush. :p :

Daniel
10th September 2007, 15:31
I thought you were going to tell him a relative of his in Africa dieed, leaving him 15 million pounds. And you need the details to send him the money, but don't tell the authorities as it is all hush hush. :p :
Well now that I mention it I'm actually trying to overthrow the government here after my brother who used to be the old President was killed. I simply need your bank details so I can transfer some money into your account to buy some weapons. I'll give you a million dollars for your trouble :D

Daniel
10th September 2007, 15:32
Please, start to apologize to Fernando and Pedro:

http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Other-sports/2007/09/102/F1-Journalist-admits-inventing-McLaren-quotes/
Why should anyone on this forum apologise. It wasn't us that made the quotes up?

Valve Bounce
10th September 2007, 15:34
Please, start to apologize to Fernando and Pedro:

http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Other-sports/2007/09/102/F1-Journalist-admits-inventing-McLaren-quotes/

I bet he was listening to Elvis when he made it up. :p :

Valve Bounce
10th September 2007, 15:36
Well now that I mention it I'm actually trying to overthrow the government here after my brother who used to be the old President was killed. I simply need your bank details so I can transfer some money into your account to buy some weapons. I'll give you a million dollars for your trouble :D

The weapons are in the garage next door; just send me the money and I'll send you the weapons; I'll cover the postage. :D

andreag
10th September 2007, 15:40
Why should anyone on this forum apologise. It wasn't us that made the quotes up?
But some people blamed them based on smoke.

An "Ooops" would be fine.

Bagwan
10th September 2007, 15:46
Rumours, half-truths and now fictional accounts :rolleyes:

Fictional accounts that many , given the circumstances , were quite willing to believe .
Pino's version was what he thought might have been said , and , as Fernando has revealed that he has submitted evidence for a meeting that was was to be re-convened if evidence was found , and , if found , McLaren face censure , it is not quite as far fetched as "fictional accounts" makes it sound .

Donney
10th September 2007, 15:49
Renault has reportedly been backing Ferrari's campaign for a sanction against McLaren, but Marca claims that Dennis is in possession of knowledge that could "cause the immediate exclusion from the championship of the French team".

Remember Spyker has the Toro Rosso plans and Toyota some Ferrari plans so that will be 8 cars out if the FIA is consistent.......

If by Marca you mean the Spanish newspaper is wiser not to believe it!

Bagwan
10th September 2007, 15:56
Clearly. Nobody disputes that but if two employees from respective teams act rogue in this matter, then how are either of their employers to blame is my arguement. IF McLaren have used the dossier, then it's a whole different kettle of fish.

There is a document signed for each of the teams that accepts liability for all employees and thier actions .
That signature negates any notion of "rogue" .
I agree , though , that it is a different kettle of fish , since the WMSC wouldn't cancel the appeal and book another meeting if something wasn't smelling a little fishy .

ArrowsFA1
10th September 2007, 16:10
Fictional accounts that many , given the circumstances , were quite willing to believe....it is not quite as far fetched as "fictional accounts" makes it sound .
It's still fiction though, and it's not even fiction based on fact because the nature of the evidence submitted is not yet known.

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 16:18
There is a document signed for each of the teams that accepts liability for all employees and thier actions .
That signature negates any notion of "rogue" .
I agree , though , that it is a different kettle of fish , since the WMSC wouldn't cancel the appeal and book another meeting if something wasn't smelling a little fishy .

Precisely. That is why McLaren were found guilty because it was one of their employees. It was also accepted that he was acting outside of the knowledge of McLaren which was why they weren't punished.

That is also why Ferrari are responsible for Stepney although they would not be punished (correctly) because he was acting outside of their knowledge.

Finally, Arrow's last post still stands. Was it a complete fabrication or a bit of artistic licence. We will find out Thursday.

ioan
10th September 2007, 16:27
Renault has reportedly been backing Ferrari's campaign for a sanction against McLaren, but Marca claims that Dennis is in possession of knowledge that could "cause the immediate exclusion from the championship of the French team".

Yeah, sure!

Maybe he also has something against each other team, as I suppose they will all support the idea of no McLaren in the final standings, this way everyone will get money at the end of the season, everyone except for McLaren!

Bagwan
10th September 2007, 16:40
Precisely. That is why McLaren were found guilty because it was one of their employees. It was also accepted that he was acting outside of the knowledge of McLaren which was why they weren't punished.

That is also why Ferrari are responsible for Stepney although they would not be punished (correctly) because he was acting outside of their knowledge.

Finally, Arrow's last post still stands. Was it a complete fabrication or a bit of artistic licence. We will find out Thursday.

Stepney was legally in possession of the documents .
Coughlan was not .

It was accepted that they didn't benefit , but that door was left wide open , with them saying that if further evidence was found , they would be punished .
It is interesting that it was the FIA that cancelled the appeal , and not Ferrari . Ferrari were appealing , at least in part , because they felt that they were not allowed to give all their evidence in the first place .


Since Alonso is on record saying he has spoken to the FIA about this , and it was they who cancelled the appeal , I would think that Pino's version might not be quite right , but perhaps close .

Fernando may not have known about from where the info came , and this might have been reason for no crew salute upon winning , and not hug for Ron on the podium .
He seems like a rat resenting having to leave his ship .

ioan
10th September 2007, 16:48
Isn't it the responsibility of those making the accusations to prove that they did benefit?

That's what will happen in a few days, so just sit and wait.

ioan
10th September 2007, 16:50
I do find it hard to believe in this day and age a designer of an F1 car would feel the need to steal another teams ideas. Each designer has there own plan at the start of the season, of what they think will work, its later on in the season all the teams start copying each other.

And what if they plan doesn't work out as he thought it would? He better call a friend than! :p :

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 17:04
Stepney was legally in possession of the documents .
Coughlan was not .

Stepney was legally in possession until he passed them on. (allegedly)

If I worked in a bank and passed on a couple of hundred thousand pounds to an acconplis, would the bank and police think I was legally entitled to?

ArrowsFA1
10th September 2007, 17:04
I would think that Pino's version might not be quite right , but perhaps close.
But Bagwan, anyone and everyone could come up with versions of every aspect of this case from whatever perspective you care to mention.

Pick any two characters from the cast of characters involved, fabricate the contents of emails, and publish them anywhere on the internet. They're likely to be picked up and repeated on motorsport forums, or even used by news outlets.

That's the problem. Fact, fiction, speculation, and rumour are being mixed and matched to suit different ends.

It would be nice to think that Thursday will see a conclusion to all of this but I very much doubt it will :dozey:

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 17:07
But Bagwan, anyone and everyone could come up with versions of every aspect of this case from whatever perspective you care to mention.

Pick any two characters from the cast of characters involved, fabricate the contents of emails, and publish them anywhere on the internet. They're likely to be picked up and repeated on motorsport forums, or even used by news outlets.

That's the problem. Fact, fiction, speculation, and rumour are being mixed and matched to suit different ends.

It would be nice to think that Thursday will see a conclusion to all of this but I very much doubt it will :dozey:

Sadly, I think you're right.

The only thing the FIA can do is make the hearing public so we can all see what it's all about.

markabilly
10th September 2007, 17:08
Please, start to apologize to Fernando and Pedro:

http://sport.setanta.com/en/Sport/News/Other-sports/2007/09/102/F1-Journalist-admits-inventing-McLaren-quotes/


I would but I only said it was ambigous chit-chat that proved nothing, several times now..........

"However, Allievi has now come clean and admitted that he concocted the exchange to make his article more credible, telling the Associated Press: "I made a free interpretation of what might have been said in the email." "


stilll the mac behavior at Monza towards FA was quite clear as to how they felt about him, and need I re-post my prior statement that it was enough that MAc had the info and failed to rebut the presumption of benefit by PHYSICAL EVIDENCE

And once having become aware of it, acted to encourage MC to hide it, thereby becoming an accessory to the theft. And now they are dumping on FA because he is ratting...or is it just whistleblowing

If they had acted as true whistle blowers as they claim about their actions with the flexible floor, then it was simple:

"Here is stuff that came to one of our employees. In the course of figuring it out, we saw that ferrari is alleged to have an illegal floor or whatever. The info came from NS to MC. And we are returning it to the FIA "lost and found" department" for them to ascertain as to who the real owner is"


And we would have case closed, and big MAc walks clean, and Jean Toad at ferrari could fuss and muss all he wanted......of course if one is hoping for further info and its use, one does not burn informants

ioan
10th September 2007, 17:15
Stepney was legally in possession until he passed them on. (allegedly)

As soon as he passed them to Coughlan he wasn't anymore in possession, that's clear! :p :


If I worked in a bank and passed on a couple of hundred thousand pounds to an acconplis, would the bank and police think I was legally entitled to?

Stepney didn't pass a Ferrari F1 to Coughlan, just documentation about it. And if you worked in a bank, I doubt that could be the case, you would legally have access and could detain documents about the accounts of your customers. However as soon as you would give them to someone outside the bank you would both have a problem with the legal system!

PS: What is "an acconplis" ?

ioan
10th September 2007, 17:17
The only thing the FIA can do is make the hearing public so we can all see what it's all about.

It was mentioned somewhere that the hearing will be public. :D

markabilly
10th September 2007, 17:18
Isn't it the responsibility of those making the accusations to prove that they did benefit?

The benefit is in the possession.

The possessor can always rebut and demonstrate there was no benefit (a little difficult to do here, even if everyone agrees the floor was illegal before the rule modification because Mac did not make full disclosure of the circumstances of the acquisition of the data), the goods were not stolen, that he did not have knowledge of the theft and so forth.

markabilly
10th September 2007, 17:34
As soon....................!

PS: What is "an acconplis" ?

"an accessory is distinguished from an accomplice who normally is present at the crime and participates in some way. An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way, or simply by failing to report the crime to proper authority."

"a person who learns of the crime and gives some form of assistance before the crime is committed is known as an "accessory before the fact". A person who learns of the crime after it is committed and helps the criminal to conceal it, or aids the criminal in escaping, or simply fails to report the crime, is known as an "accessory after the fact". "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_%28legal_term%29

MClaren knew and mclaren failed to report

FA, LH and Pedro also need to 'report" or they are just as quilty as MC and NS...........................all this talk of "rats" is disgusting, and if anything, the behavior of MC towards FA at Monza does NOT aid MClaren at all......

ArrowsFA1
10th September 2007, 17:45
The benefit is in the possession.
That is not how the FIA saw it in the original case. There was no dispute that Coughlan had possession, but there was insufficient evidence to show that McLaren had benefitted. Hence their verdict.

Perhaps whatever this 'new evidence' is will clearly show that the McLaren team benefitted from Ferrari information. Perhaps not. We will see on Thursday.

F1boat
10th September 2007, 17:51
There will be no punishment for McLaren, I am sure. They have bought the FIA IMO.

markabilly
10th September 2007, 18:03
That is not how the FIA saw it in the original case. There was no dispute that Coughlan had possession, but there was insufficient evidence to show that McLaren had benefitted. Hence their verdict.

Perhaps whatever this 'new evidence' is will clearly show that the McLaren team benefitted from Ferrari information. Perhaps not. We will see on Thursday.
My point is that was what was wrong with their verdict...in a case like this possessing something of a value from someone else, and NOT returning and making disclosure, is the crime...benefit is immaterial....

The easy answer is what happenned over the pit stop (yank some WCC points) gearbox (50k///big deal) but it is now over except for some tears.

If they had dumped a million dollar plus fine on them at the first hearing and knocked off a bunch of wcc points, then ferrari could have run around all day screaming, but so what..........instead they issue the "no benefit/no punishment" made the finding which was a joke........couple it with the Dracoian threat they made if some later evidence turns up...all that did was invite trouble

And so NOW the matter is blowing up even far bigger than before...

Flat.tyres
10th September 2007, 18:10
Even the Courts are getting in on the act.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62251

Apparently, it is entirely normal for court officials to visit foreign nationals in the middle of a GP weekend on a Saturday.

Try getting any other Government official in Italy on a Saturday :laugh:

ioan
10th September 2007, 18:37
Try getting any other Government official in Italy on a Saturday :laugh:

Did you try?!

Ian McC
10th September 2007, 19:17
They have bought the FIA IMO.


In Your opinion? Based on exactly what?

Caroline
10th September 2007, 19:26
There will be no punishment for McLaren, I am sure. They have bought the FIA IMO.

My! The plot thickens.

Or not. :rolleyes:

Bezza
10th September 2007, 21:03
My prediction is as follows:

McLaren will be banned from competing in the Belgian GP, given a hefty fine and possibly lose all constructors points. It would too detrimental to F1 for the FIA to chuck McLaren out of the championship altogether. Therefore by banning them from race and presuming Ferrari take a one-two with their engines wound down - can't see BMW catching them - it gives us an intense four-way fight for the title in the last three races!!

McLaren also warned to future conduct and Alonso announces he's off back to Renault.

markabilly
10th September 2007, 21:13
My prediction is as follows:

McLaren will be banned from competing in the Belgian GP, given a hefty fine and possibly lose all constructors points. It would too detrimental to F1 for the FIA to chuck McLaren out of the championship altogether. Therefore by banning them from race and presuming Ferrari take a one-two with their engines wound down - can't see BMW catching them - it gives us an intense four-way fight for the title in the last three races!!

McLaren also warned to future conduct and Alonso announces he's off back to Renault.

yeah something like that is what i am also saying, although i do not know that they would ban them from the next race...might be too much punishment since the drivers were promised immunity from ANY ADVERSE ACTION in return for talking to the FIA (assuming yaydyayayasya)

OTOH---the way ferrari has been going, if both cars go todt (as in dead), then Ferrari may be gaining momentum on their downhill slide, and the ban would not really matter (and someone from beemer world wins..or whoever, espe if it were to rain......)

P/S if FA does race and it does rain, go with FA over Hamilton......and forget Massa (unless he learns that rain will not make him melt)

mstillhere
10th September 2007, 22:06
Isn't it the responsibility of those making the accusations to prove that they did benefit?

That's what ferrari is planning to do on Thursday

mstillhere
10th September 2007, 22:09
The fact that Mike had information I believe is down to Mike I don't feel the team should be to blame, and even if the McClaren car is a direct copy of the Ferrari then Ferrari deserve to loose the championship by not producing the goods with an identical machine, that someone has made better use of the Ferrari idea.

Would you agree that stealing private property and making false statements in a court is a crime?

mstillhere
10th September 2007, 22:24
I think that's a very naive view on things.

If Ford went and stole Vauxhall's plans for a new car then that would be industrial espionage and would definitely go to court.

It's a spy case. If Ferrari wanted to give McLaren their plans they would have and then didn't.

Of course teams copy stuff. If teams saw Ferrari make a change to the outside of the car and it seemed to make the car faster then of course they would attempt to emulate them but that's different to having the blueprints. There's a difference between copying and stealing.

I was practically pushed over while trying to take a picture of the underneath of the rear of the suspension of the new Focus WRC in Australia in 2005. Teams take this thing seriously. Ferrari didn't just mail Coughlan those documents.........

Hi Daniel,
don't waste your time with them. They are choosing not to accept reality for what it is. They are looking for a crack in this whole thing so that they could live with better with themselves. If it would have been Ferrari in McLAren's position, right now they would be in Maranello torching the whole factory down. Would anybody deny that?
What's funny is that these McLaren fans know that are being hypocritical but they still cannot beleive that one of their own did something that none of them would do in real life. Right?? I don't think anyone of you would go in somebody's house stealing stuff and then you would not be expecting to be arrested, right?
See, on Thursday if we don't win legally don't despair, because we will win morally and ethically. This is not about F1, as we can all agree, this about honesty and integrity. Two virtues that McLaren has now lost for ever.

Blackburn Buccaneer
10th September 2007, 22:35
Sadly, I think you're right.

The only thing the FIA can do is make the hearing public so we can all see what it's all about.

agree. no one outside can come to any logical, or definative conclusion.
some of the arguments being used to condemn mclaren are circular, and specious.
we'll have to wait until thursday to see if the fia will publish all of the evidence: which will support its conclusions, evidence, which clears, or convicts mclaren.

wmcot
10th September 2007, 22:45
...or F1 where common sense prevails and the integretty of the sport is maintained...

And where is this fantasy land???

On a different note, wouldn't it be interesting if FA said that LH was stealing his setup which he, in turn, had stolen from Ferrari? Remember, McLaren are the only team that seem to have gotten the best out of switching from Michelin to Bridgestone!

There was also a quote that RD had info on Renault that could get them excluded from the championship...Hmm, I wonder how he got that info???? Did someone inside Renault send some emails to someone in McLaren???

As far as Italian authorities serving McLaren employees legal documents at Monza, it could have gone something like this, "I need to fly to England to serve these papers to McLaren employees." "Wait a couple of weeks, they'll be here at Monza and we can save the expense of flying to England." Not that far-fetched, is it?

ioan
11th September 2007, 00:23
It seems that they did what they had to do in a very nice and civilized manner:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62251

jas123f1
11th September 2007, 00:50
Briatore wants McLaren excluded over spy row
Saturday, August 4, 2007

Flamboyant Renault boss Flavio Briatore has called for McLaren to be excluded from the Formula One world championship over their part in the spy scandal that has rocked the sport.

http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/archives/news/sports/20070804-automobile-formula1-ferrari-briatore-mclaren-renault.html

--------------
No comments :)

Hondo
11th September 2007, 01:37
Big Ferrari Fan here. However:

1. Unless it can proved that any of the technology contained in the "Ferrari Papers" was used in or on the McLaren car, McLaren shouldn't be punished.

2. If you want to ban from Formula 1, any McLaren employee that saw or handled the actual Ferrari Papers, or copies thereof, and did not report it immediately, thats ok with me.

3. If you can prove that Ron Dennis handled, saw, or knew about the Ferrari Papers at any time before their existance was made public, then you can ban McLaren for 2007.

4. McLaren should have their constructor's points restored from Hungary. That was an internal team squabble and interferred with no other team on the grid. If anything, the drivers should lose their points for acting like a couple of bozos.

5. The conspiracy theory: If it can be proved that the Ferrari Papers were in fact sent by a Ferrari employee for the sole purpose of causing this ruckus in the first place, Ferrari should be banned for 2007 and the employee banned from F1 for life.

6. Lest we forget, parce ferme is living proof that none of these b@stards are to be trusted, ever.

mstillhere
11th September 2007, 06:03
Big Ferrari Fan here. However:

1. Unless it can proved that any of the technology contained in the "Ferrari Papers" was used in or on the McLaren car, McLaren shouldn't be punished.

2. If you want to ban from Formula 1, any McLaren employee that saw or handled the actual Ferrari Papers, or copies thereof, and did not report it immediately, thats ok with me.

3. If you can prove that Ron Dennis handled, saw, or knew about the Ferrari Papers at any time before their existance was made public, then you can ban McLaren for 2007.

- Unfortunately the FIA rules, that to everyone btw, are much stricter that
that

4. McLaren should have their constructor's points restored from Hungary. That was an internal team squabble and interferred with no other team on the grid. If anything, the drivers should lose their points for acting like a couple of bozos.

5. The conspiracy theory: If it can be proved that the Ferrari Papers were in fact sent by a Ferrari employee for the sole purpose of causing this ruckus in the first place, Ferrari should be banned for 2007 and the employee banned from F1 for life.

- Huh???

6. Lest we forget, parce ferme is living proof that none of these b@stards are to be trusted, ever.

- Totally agree

wmcot
11th September 2007, 07:18
Big Ferrari Fan here. However:

1. Unless it can proved that any of the technology contained in the "Ferrari Papers" was used in or on the McLaren car, McLaren shouldn't be punished.

2. If you want to ban from Formula 1, any McLaren employee that saw or handled the actual Ferrari Papers, or copies thereof, and did not report it immediately, thats ok with me.

3. If you can prove that Ron Dennis handled, saw, or knew about the Ferrari Papers at any time before their existance was made public, then you can ban McLaren for 2007.

4. McLaren should have their constructor's points restored from Hungary. That was an internal team squabble and interferred with no other team on the grid. If anything, the drivers should lose their points for acting like a couple of bozos.

5. The conspiracy theory: If it can be proved that the Ferrari Papers were in fact sent by a Ferrari employee for the sole purpose of causing this ruckus in the first place, Ferrari should be banned for 2007 and the employee banned from F1 for life.

6. Lest we forget, parce ferme is living proof that none of these b@stards are to be trusted, ever.

So you have no problem with one team being in possession of another team's complete technical documentation and not reporting it to the proper authorities (actually not saying a word until it is discovered months later that you have it. Do you suppose it sat unopened on a shelf for several months?)

In which case, you'll have no problem posting your bank account and credit card information on this forum for all of us to see. We all promise we won't use it for anything, it will just sit on the forum for 3-4 months??? :)

Valve Bounce
11th September 2007, 07:41
So you have no problem with one team being in possession of another team's complete technical documentation and not reporting it to the proper authorities (actually not saying a word until it is discovered months later that you have it. Do you suppose it sat unopened on a shelf for several months?)

??? :)

Actually, he was going to report it asap. But he had some trouble getting his wife to make a copy, just in case the FIA lost the original. :p : His PC would andle that sized copies and his wife trudged high and low until she found a place that could make the copies.

ArrowsFA1
11th September 2007, 10:11
So you have no problem with one team being in possession of another team's complete technical documentation and not reporting it to the proper authorities.
"One team" was actually one individual. Coughlan receiving information from a Ferrari employee does not automatically mean McLaren as a whole were in possession, or used, the information.

Many assumptions and accusations have been made, but no evidence has yet come to light that says McLaren did use the information, or benefitted from it in any way.

Daniel
11th September 2007, 10:18
"One team" was actually one individual. Coughlan receiving information from a Ferrari employee does not automatically mean McLaren as a whole were in possession, or used, the information.

Many assumptions and accusations have been made, but no evidence has yet come to light that says McLaren did use the information, or benefitted from it in any way.
Send me your credit card details again please. You've got no proof that I will use it fraudulently. :)

My point is that it's not something you get your hands on unless at the very least there is some intent and if someone from a team is that dishonest then surely they will be wanting to use that information to their advantage.

AJP
11th September 2007, 10:57
Send me your credit card details again please. You've got no proof that I will use it fraudulently. :)

My point is that it's not something you get your hands on unless at the very least there is some intent and if someone from a team is that dishonest then surely they will be wanting to use that information to their advantage.

it is not yet proven that more than one person inside McLaren have seen this documentation. why is that so hard to comprehend.

there are so many angles that could be taken in this, but can't. Simply because it has not yet been proven.