Spy Case Thread *merged*

[ArrowsFA1]

My point is that it's not something you get your hands on unless at the very least there is some intent and if someone from a team is that dishonest then surely they will be wanting to use that information to their advantage.
So what about the intent of Coughlan & Stepney to offer their services to another team as evidenced by their meetings with Honda? Does that not show someone using the information to their advantage, and using it in a way that had no connection with McLaren?

Some argue that as McLaren used an email from Stepney to raise the issue of Ferrari's floor with the FIA in Australia, therefore "of course" they would have used any other Ferrari information to gain an advantage over their rivals. It seems no evidence is required to prove this allegation because...well...McLaren would have used it wouldn't they...they just would.

You can understand Ferrari being upset about the way their floor was questioned, and the subseqent changes to the FIA tests which, as they saw it, took away an advantage they had developed, but that in itself does not provide proof that all the subsequent allegations against McLaren are true.

Perhaps the 'new evidence' will provide that required proof, or maybe it will show something entirely different.

[Daniel]

Well if the FIA has reopened the case then surely this says that something's up. So I'll trust that they know something which proves that McLaren's miraculous from zero to hero rise wasn't all their own work.

I do think the punishment should be severe if there's some proof that they cheated. I do think that the long term and life bans which are given in athletics and cycling for drug use should be taken up in motorsport. If any person is proven to have been a party to any cheating then they should get a lifetime ban or a long term (5 years?) ban. Something which wrecks their career if they make a mistake rather than just setting back their career a few weeks or months at most. If you were Ron or Jean would you indulge in industrial espionage or fit a clearly illegal part to your car if you knew you were going to be a disgraced ex-team principal rather than being a team princial who got a slap on the wrist? I don't think the FIA advocates cheating or espionage at any level but they encourage it by being weak with punishments for deliberate infringements. Alonso getting no punishment for wrecking Hamilton's qualifying is a good example of how you can be so deliberate but not get any punishment. If at the start of next year they said that they'd take 40 points off someone who violated the rules as deliberately as Alonso did. Drivers and teams infringe in Formula 1 because they know that even if they get found out it's a slap on the wrist at best. Is that what we want?

[Hondo]

Send me your credit card details again please. You've got no proof that I will use it fraudulently. :)

My point is that it's not something you get your hands on unless at the very least there is some intent and if someone from a team is that dishonest then surely they will be wanting to use that information to their advantage.

If your wife mails me your credit card information and I open it, read it, and say "what is she sending me this for?" and toss it up on a shelve into a "things to get around to later" pile, now whats your complaint? I'm not using your information, nor did I ask for it but it's here and I will deal with it when I have the time.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Drivers and teams infringe in Formula 1 because they know that even if they get found out it's a slap on the wrist at best. Is that what we want?It's what we've had since 1994, why change it now?

[Daniel]

It's what we've had since 1994, why change it now?
Because it doesn't work. Teams infringe because they know the punishment will be minimal at best.

[Daniel]

If your wife mails me your credit card information and I open it, read it, and say "what is she sending me this for?" and toss it up on a shelve into a "things to get around to later" pile, now whats your complaint? I'm not using your information, nor did I ask for it but it's here and I will deal with it when I have the time.
The thing is you didn't. You sent your wife to go out and photocopy it........

[Hondo]

The thing is you didn't. You sent your wife to go out and photocopy it........

So what? I can have 942 copies of your credit card info and it means nothing unless I try to use it.

[Daniel]

So what? I can have 942 copies of your credit card info and it means nothing unless I try to use it.
Why photocopy something you don't want to use? :rolleyes: Perhaps your team principal wanted a read of it too? :rolleyes: Perhaps he wanted to rest of the design team to know my girlfriend's credit card number and why it was better than theirs? :)

[leopard]

Just to enrich my library collection, this doesn't mean I have to use it when I know that my current stuff was better far in advance of that copies.

[Daniel]

Just to enrich my library collection, this doesn't mean I have to use it when I know that my current stuff was better far in advance of that copies.
Perhaps he was going to use it to solve the issue of world hunger if we're going to talk like that :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

Why photocopy something you don't want to use? :rolleyes: Perhaps your team principal wanted a read of it too?
This is exactly the kind of speculative allegation that this whole case is riddled with.

Fiero 5.7 came up with another one earlier:

If it can be proved that the Ferrari Papers were in fact sent by a Ferrari employee for the sole purpose of causing this ruckus in the first place...

[Valve Bounce]

I do think the punishment should be severe if there's some proof that they cheated. I do think that the long term and life bans which are given in athletics and cycling for drug use should be taken up in motorsport. If any person is proven to have been a party to any cheating then they should get a lifetime ban or a long term (5 years?) ban. Something which wrecks their career if they make a mistake rather than just setting back their career a few weeks or months at most.


I fully agree. If Stepney, Coughlan and Trudy are found guilty, they should be given lengthy bans from F1. And if the alledged White powder sabotage is proven, then the guy should be double banned.

[leopard]

Perhaps he was going to use it to solve the issue of world hunger if we're going to talk like that :rolleyes:
Not always, he was occupied with his own and under no circumstances taking a look at the copies for quite while, and forgot it whereabout when needed :)

[Valve Bounce]

Not always, he was occupied with his own and under no circumstances taking a look at the copies for quite while, and forgot it whereabout when needed :)

Yeah!! like waiting for Elvis to check it out for his next hit!!

[Daniel]

Can this be proved? Where's the evidence?

I said perhaps. I didn't state it as fact. I think that's fair enough in this sort of thread?

[ioan]

"One team" was actually one individual.

That's just an assumption based on RD's comments, comments that we can only assume that are not a lie in a desperate try of a desperate man.

Anyway the rules state that a team has to assume responsibility for their employees doings, and McLaren agreed to those rules. So if Coughlan is a Mclaren employee and he is at fault than McLaren is at fault and this charade should have ended at the first FIA hearing with a ban on the shiny chromed team.

Sooner or later truth will come to light, like always, and RD might leave F1 labeled as liar.

[ioan]

So what? I can have 942 copies of your credit card info and it means nothing unless I try to use it.

Don't be so sure about it. After all you have possession of personal data that you shouldn't have and if the copy shop guy will alert the police you might get in trouble whether you tried to use it or not.

[Ian McC]

So if Coughlan is a Mclaren employee and he is at fault than McLaren is at fault and this charade should have ended at the first FIA hearing with a ban on the shiny chromed team.

How would it serve F1 to ban a team because one of their employees is an alleged thief?

[F1MAN2007]

But until today I am wondering what Mclaren may have copied from that most unreliable Ferrai car on grid?!

Whatever will come out from the hearing, but last sunday will stay memorable in Mclaren history that they knocked KO the Ferrari in Italy and in front of more than 90.000 Ferrari fans. That was a nice answer.

[markabilly]

But until today I am wondering what Mclaren may have copied from that most unreliable Ferrai car on grid?!

Whatever will come out from the hearing, but last sunday will stay memorable in Mclaren history that they knocked KO the Ferrari in Italy and in front of more than 90.000 Ferrari fans. That was a nice answer.

Like i said why steal when all they needed to do was wait around, knowing without MS, brawn (and even NS!!) that the downhill slide and implosion was to be expected sooner or later.....back to the good old days at ferrari.....

of course they will never get so bad as to forget to properly fuel a car for qualifying so it runs down to the end of pitlane and dies from lack of gasoline................. :eek:

[F1MAN2007]

I suspect that Ferrari knowing that :

1) Ms is no longer the leading driver for their team
2) Ross Brawn no longer the leading technician for their team
3) Nigel S no longer leading designer of their car
4) Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton are perfect combo on grid with one of the fastest car if not the most fastest and reliable
5)etc.

They knew the only way to kick out their rival will be using "spygate". From now on it is almost impossible to do so on track. That is why they put more focus on "spygate" than on track and maybe this can save them at least for this worse season. And they are pretending to be the honest team out there?! It is incredible the way they are handling this issue.

[Hondo]

My final decision:

1. Ron Dennis may be a lot of things, but stupid is not one of them.

2. This entire mess is nothing but stupid running wild.

[ioan]

I suspect that Ferrari knowing that :

...
3) Nigel S no longer leading designer of their car
...


You shot yourself in the foot there and showed us that you know 0² or 0³ about F1! :laugh:

[markabilly]

You shot yourself in the foot there and showed us that you know 0² or 0³ about F1! :laugh:
Right----- the job of NS was to be sure the tanks were properly filled so as to not run out of gas going down the pitlane....explains the white powder as well..... he was just using detergent to be sure the tank was clean...he was going to ask Brawn if he could do it...but he was off sunning hisself....

[Flat.tyres]

That's just an assumption based on RD's comments, comments that we can only assume that are not a lie in a desperate try of a desperate man.

Anyway the rules state that a team has to assume responsibility for their employees doings, and McLaren agreed to those rules. So if Coughlan is a Mclaren employee and he is at fault than McLaren is at fault and this charade should have ended at the first FIA hearing with a ban on the shiny chromed team.

Sooner or later truth will come to light, like always, and RD might leave F1 labeled as liar.

Or he may be vindicated for telling the truth. We await the facts.

As for the rest of this sorry mess, I completely agree with you. I believe this scandle has brought the sport into disrepute. As you say, the teams signed a contract assuming the responsibility for their employees. The instigator of this whole affair was a senior Ferrari employee so by your reckoning, Ferrari should be held culpable for bringing the sport into disrepute.

Personally, I am happy that they faced no such charge and that McLaren were found guilty by the same rule but no punishment was executed as the employee was acting with Stepney for his own ends against McLaren.

Of course, should this not be the case and there was use of the Ferrari dossier within McLaren, then quite rightly, they will need to be punished if they knowingly used the data. That is to be seen.

[Flat.tyres]

Big Ferrari Fan here. However:

1. Unless it can proved that any of the technology contained in the "Ferrari Papers" was used in or on the McLaren car, McLaren shouldn't be punished.

2. If you want to ban from Formula 1, any McLaren employee that saw or handled the actual Ferrari Papers, or copies thereof, and did not report it immediately, thats ok with me.

3. If you can prove that Ron Dennis handled, saw, or knew about the Ferrari Papers at any time before their existance was made public, then you can ban McLaren for 2007.

4. McLaren should have their constructor's points restored from Hungary. That was an internal team squabble and interferred with no other team on the grid. If anything, the drivers should lose their points for acting like a couple of bozos.

5. The conspiracy theory: If it can be proved that the Ferrari Papers were in fact sent by a Ferrari employee for the sole purpose of causing this ruckus in the first place, Ferrari should be banned for 2007 and the employee banned from F1 for life.

6. Lest we forget, parce ferme is living proof that none of these -------- are to be trusted, ever.


Totally agree with you and respect what might just be the most objective post on this thread.

(BTW, sorry for altering a part of your original post but I will probably be banned for quoting an altered swear word :( )

[F1MAN2007]

You shot yourself in the foot there and showed us that you know 0² or 0³ about F1! :laugh:


As human we are meant to make mistake, isn't?

Only idiots never make mistakes.

[Flat.tyres]

The plot thickens. Now it's official.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62274

Ron telling Flav to butt out perhaps?

[Daniel]

As human we are meant to make mistake, isn't?

Only idiots never make mistakes.
Yes but if you don't have a basic knowledge of what's going in a situation then perhaps it's not best to get involved in the discussion on that subject.

[F1MAN2007]

Yes but if you don't have a basic knowledge of what's going in a situation then perhaps it's not best to get involved in the discussion on that subject.

I stay silent because I don't want to upset Pino for the second time today and again because of you! :D

[Flat.tyres]

Yes but if you don't have a basic knowledge of what's going in a situation then perhaps it's not best to get involved in the discussion on that subject.

Guess I'd better stay silent too otherwise I'm dead :D

[Bagwan]

The plot thickens. Now it's official.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62274

Ron telling Flav to butt out perhaps?

What's official ?
Do you mean the e-mail ?

[Flat.tyres]

What's official ?
Do you mean the e-mail ?

That McLaren have approached the FIA over Renault.

[Bagwan]

That McLaren have approached the FIA over Renault.

Oh , I see .

Mind you , they did say it had nout to do with this case .
Which backs up what Flavio is saying .

Renault are cooperating .

Ron is throwing stones .

[euskalteam]

Ferrari has not option, if the italians wants to win this year title, they have to ban McLaren. :p

[markabilly]

That McLaren have approached the FIA over Renault.

RD needs to leave Flabby Flavio alone---he is now a business partner with ernie bernie, and bernie takes care of his buddies.....so what points would be made will be missed, no doubt...............

Bad enuff about hurting bernie with the breakaway series idea....and now trying to mess with benie's partner.....the only thing keeping big mac from being booted is the bernie ernie love for LH as the new rookie brit WDC who increases revenue for the good of benei---ooops i mena good of the sport...of course

(do any of you really think that flavio gives a flip about this particular team that he is going into partnership with bernie enerie...gee one would think anybody with IQ above 40 would see through that in a heartbaet..)

[wmcot]

"One team" was actually one individual. Coughlan receiving information from a Ferrari employee does not automatically mean McLaren as a whole were in possession, or used, the information.

Many assumptions and accusations have been made, but no evidence has yet come to light that says McLaren did use the information, or benefitted from it in any way.

Yes, I am assuming! I assume that Coughlan was not dumb enough, having Ferrari's "Holy Grail" in his possession, to keep it by his toilet or bedside as just a little "light reading." My assumptions are based on the fact that I am not naive (as it appears you must be to be a McLaren fan.) Do you suppose he sent his wife to copy it so he could have one copy by his toilet AND one by his bed??? :lol: Do you suppose that he wouldn't bring up any of the discoveries he found to co-workers?

If Coughlan had that much integrity, he would have immediately turned the documents over to the proper authorities or, at least, destroyed them to protect his friend, NS.

[wmcot]

The plot thickens. Now it's official.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62274

Ron telling Flav to butt out perhaps?

Looks like someone in McLaren received a 700+ page document on Renault, but of course, nobody else in McLaren has seen it!!! :)

[hmmm - donuts]

[quote="Flat.tyres"] they will need to be punished if they knowingly used the data. [quote]

If they'd used Ferarri data, they'd have ended up with a slower, and less reliable, car than they have now! Punishment enough?

[euskalteam]

McLaren got the famous Ferrari papers on March-April, when the 2007 car was finished, so I think they can't developed a new car when the season was started.

[wmcot]

McLaren got the famous Ferrari papers on March-April, when the 2007 car was finished, so I think they can't developed a new car when the season was started.

No, but there would probably be quite enough data to help them setup their chassis to get the optimum from the Bridgestones. They don't have to design their whole car to benefit, just use a little bit of the info here and there.

[Valve Bounce]

It's incredible how the rumours and counter rumours, executions, guilty finds, punishments, exclusions and bans are flying around like bats in the night - all blind.
The hearing is tomorrow, so guys, better make hay while the moon shines. After that, the hearing will come out with evidence and all the theories will be obsolete.

Go Elvis!!!

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

this spygate stuff really really stinks. this stuff is starting to resemble the tribal warfare going on in iraq and elsewhere. imagine, finally i have some time to devote to this sport, then blam. last year i was too involved with the hospital. this year was the first time in decades that i've had the time for f1 and, it seems that all change has been for the worst. f1 needs to bring in new management: starting at the top! hell, i didn't even know jack about hamilton, until the first race. then i became excited because i felt, here was a chance to see something at the beginning. if this event dosen't shake out right, publicly presented, clear evidence of either guilty->PUNISHMENT,

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

this spygate stuff really really stinks. this stuff is starting to resemble the blood-letting going on in iraq and elsewhere. imagine, finally i have some time to devote to this sport, then blam. last year i was too involved with the hospital. this year was the first time in decades that i've had the time for f1 and, it seems that all change has been for the worst. f1 needs to bring in new management: starting at the top! hell, i didn't even know jack about hamilton, until the first race. then i became excited because i felt, here was a chance to see something at the beginning. if this event dosen't shake out right, publicly presented, clear evidence of either guilty->punishment, not guilty->exonoration, publicly, then adios f1, i won't be missing you.

[leopard]

This maybe also an evidence that I see no significant difference :)

[leopard]

No, but there would probably be quite enough data to help them setup their chassis to get the optimum from the Bridgestones. They don't have to design their whole car to benefit, just use a little bit of the info here and there.
All thing were already right optimum during pre season tests and beginning races of this season. They may use it a little bit there at the Ferrari but not here at McLaren :)

[wmcot]

It's incredible how the rumours and counter rumours, executions, guilty finds, punishments, exclusions and bans are flying around like bats in the night - all blind.


I quite like your bat analogy, but probably not in the way you meant it. Bats don't need their eyes to see their prey at night. They can sense it far more accurately than vision will allow. In a similar sense, I think that most of us know that things go on beneath the surface in F1 at all times without actually seeing them. This case is just too big to keep under cover by the F1 establishment. It allows us to get a glimpse of what goes on outside of racing and it captures our interest.

I don't know what will happen after the FIA council, but I hope it is fair, just, swift, and final - like a bat after a moth. Then we can all go back to racing - hopefully in a sport that will be a little more honest and open.

[markabilly]

Is it really honest racing or is it all about sponsors, money and entertainment.

nothing in most forms of entertainment is real or true....although I know some children who would disagree on Harry Potter....stuff about sponsors is really funny because sponsors love publicity but they do not care to have their name on a car that is perceived as a "cheater"...but as in American football has been discovered that as long as you win, the sponsors still come--cheating or not, dog fighting or not, steroids or not, and so it will be with F1, regardless of how many "pure fans" feel about it

Funny is how supporters of the brit to be WDC and his team are so willing to claim witch hunt and jump to the defense of stealing with immunity...aand it proves the above points (as long as your champion wins...so what...it is just a witch hunt...)

Seems the kool aid effect can be healthy to aid in selective forgetting and forgiving..... :beer:

[ArrowsFA1]

My assumptions are based on the fact that I am not naive (as it appears you must be to be a McLaren fan.)
And as a fan of F1 my assumptions are based on the lack of evidence to back up many of the accusations being made in this case.

Some point to McLaren's improved performance this season compared to last and strongly suggest that this is down to the 780-page document. How about looking at the changes within Ferrari to explain why they have slipped behind? They haven't won a championship for two, almost three, years after a period of dominance. That happens in F1.

They have also lost key people who contributed to their success, and as a result their team structure has changed. Inevitably this has had an impact on performance and reliability.

As George Harrison once sang:
It's easier to criticize somebody else
Than to see yourself.


If Coughlan had that much integrity, he would have immediately turned the documents over to the proper authorities or, at least, destroyed them to protect his friend, NS.
Why? If he was planning to move to another team (Honda) with Stepney, using details of Ferrari's structure and procedures to suggest ways Honda could improve with their combined help, knowledge and experience having been at winning teams? Why hand the information over, or destroy it in those circumstances?

[Hondo]

Quite frankly, the constant whining of Ferrari and Todt has become tiresome. It would seem that their interpretation of all this "evidence" has produced something of a tunnel vision induced truth and any verdict that differs from their idea of the truth is wrong or the result of favoritism. In reality it seems that the evidence they are offering isn't strong enough for anyone else to arrive at Ferrari's truth as the only reasonable explaination. It also appears that none of the evidence given to the courts or police has been strong enough to issue immediate arrest warrants.

It's time for Ferrari to put on their big boy knickers and either absolutely prove their case beyond all reasonable doubt or shut up and figure out how to make their cars faster.

[Flat.tyres]

...

Funny is how supporters of the brit to be WDC and his team are so willing to claim witch hunt and jump to the defense of stealing with immunity...aand it proves the above points (as long as your champion wins...so what...it is just a witch hunt...)

..... :beer:

Mark

There has long been a vendetta between Max and Ron. Everyone knows it.

I don't think I've read a post on here that defends what Stepney and Coghlan did. I also cannot recall a post that will defend McLaren if they knowingly made use of the data and have personally said that I agree they should be punished if it wasn't the case that Couglan was acting alone.

Who has ever defended stealing on here?

[leopard]

Defending on stealing might put into the more terrible punishment. Instead of echoing someone has stolen their data, I'd suggest Ferrari otherwise to 'steal' Alonso from McLaren.

That saying as long as Ferrari under the control of Todt Alonso will never drive Ferrari needn't have came up if they want the title again. Alonso might not the best driver, but his two title at Renault and impressing performance of Mclaren should be a hint to consider he is capable.

[Hawkmoon]

Here's another story, just to keep the pot stirring....

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070912095908.shtml


Britain's The Times claims that the new evidence runs to 166 pages in total, including not only the emails between Pedro de la Rosa and Fernando Alonso, but how they match up with phone and text message traffic between Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan.

This meeting can't come soon enough. :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

The dossier of new evidence collected by the FIA is thought to centre not just on e-mail traffic between the McLaren test driver, Pedro De La Rosa, and Hamilton’s teammate, Fernando Alonso, but also on details of the phone and text message traffic between McLaren’s suspended chief designer, Mike Coughlan, and the former Ferrari chief mechanic, Nigel Stepney, supplied to the FIA by the authorities in Italy.

Although the evidence does not include details of what was said in phone calls and texts, the FIA is thought to be able to demonstrate how the rate of calls and messages between Stepney and Coughlan allegedly matches e-mail traffic between Alonso and De La Rosa. The implication being that if the drivers needed a detail checked, they then referred the matter to Coughlan, who passed on queries to Stepney.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2434587.ece

[Bagwan]

It sounds like that e-mail traffic is far more damning than Pino suggested in his fabrication .
Will McLaren race at Spa ?

[Flat.tyres]

Details of the evidence has probably leaked into the public domain because, last Friday, all 26 members of the World Motor Sport Council received a copy of the dossier.

Like trying to plug a sieve.

[Flat.tyres]

OK, from what I've heard, this is very dubious.

First, it doesn't relate to the 780 page dossier which this investigation centeres on.

Second, it is apparently heresay and rumours that have been flowing backwards and forwards. I am awaiting to see evidence that McLaren used Ferrari material as evidence and not some sort of Jungle Drum communication by text message on what may or may not be relevant. What a crock of rubbish.

Evidence? They should be laughed out of court.

One little point of interest is the back stabbing mentality of Max in saying drivers wont be punished for coming forth and then withdrawing it once they have. :laugh:

Personally, if it's proven that the drivers knowingly accepted physical Ferrari data then they need to be sanctioned as I said earlier in the thread but after offering an amnesty, you cant withdraw it (unless you are Max)

[Bagwan]

OK, from what I've heard, this is very dubious.

First, it doesn't relate to the 780 page dossier which this investigation centeres on.

Second, it is apparently heresay and rumours that have been flowing backwards and forwards. I am awaiting to see evidence that McLaren used Ferrari material as evidence and not some sort of Jungle Drum communication by text message on what may or may not be relevant. What a crock of rubbish.

Evidence? They should be laughed out of court.

How did you figure that out ?

They were allegedly speaking about the contents of the 780 pages .
How do you spin that into not being evidence ?

[Flat.tyres]

How did you figure that out ?

They were allegedly speaking about the contents of the 780 pages .
How do you spin that into not being evidence ?

Lets see what this was about on Thursday ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

First, it doesn't relate to the 780 page dossier which this investigation centeres on.

Second, it is apparently heresay and rumours that have been flowing backwards and forwards. I am awaiting to see evidence that McLaren used Ferrari material as evidence and not some sort of Jungle Drum communication by text message on what may or may not be relevant. What a crock of rubbish.
Third, "the evidence does not include details of what was said in phone calls and texts".

Hardly conclusive, and not enough to change the original verdict.

Is the evidence being shaped to suit a pre-determined verdict or will the verdict actually reflect the evidence?

Third, "the evidence does not include details of what was said in phone calls and texts".

Hardly conclusive, and not enough to change the original verdict.

Is the evidence being shaped to suit a pre-determined verdict or will the verdict actually reflect the evidence?

What perhaps you should also be asking is why, if Mclaren had nothing to hide, did they not immediately give the FIA all the information their employees had?

Evidently, they did not, as it required the FIA to request it directly from the drivers.

Not exactly co-operating.

That could bring sanction regardless of what hard new evidence there is.

[MAX_THRUST]

Vodafone is preparing a new advertising push for after Thursdays possible exclusion from the world championship of McClaren.

Chase your dreams, but stear clear of Nightmares!!!

Even when you chase your dreams and win, there is always someone ready to knock you back down, but getting back up makes you stronger and stronger!!!

[MAX_THRUST]

Was Ferrari that P*****d off at loosing Vodafone as a sponsor to Ron Dennis and the boys at Mercedes they had to create this sham about cheating....

And peolpe will wonder why some sponsors want out of the series at the end of this year.

[MAX_THRUST]

Were McClaren asked to supply priviledged information (ie - e,mails, telephone conversation transcripts), I doubt it. As I have said before you can't stop two old friends discussing their work, and as a company you should be In full control of all information and the sharing of that information. Why has only Stepney been sacked by Ferrari and chased out of Italy by private investigators. Stepney's career has been ruined, and so has Mikes, or are they both of to Honda next year? Someone else at Ferrari is probably involved. It wouldn't surprise me if Stepney has been set up and the whole thing is there to totally discredit Dennis's team.

I may have to eat my hat on Thursday. All teams better be at Spa, if there is one team missing, then the whole season will be wasted. If Ferrari don't win, will they pull out of the race???? Will they quit the rest of the season?

We will see just how important the whole thing is to them on the weekend.

[ArrowsFA1]

What perhaps you should also be asking is why, if Mclaren had nothing to hide, did they not immediately give the FIA all the information their employees had?.
The question everyone should be asking is where is the evidence to show that McLaren used Ferrari's IP.

Shifting the goalposts to make any sort of charge against McLaren may be an entertaining distraction, but it doesn't alter the central charge that has yet to be answered.

[Daniel]

Vodafone is preparing a new advertising push for after Thursdays possible exclusion from the world championship of McClaren.

Chase your dreams, but stear clear of Nightmares!!!

Even when you chase your dreams and win, there is always someone ready to knock you back down, but getting back up makes you stronger and stronger!!!
Stop making this an emotional argument. Next you'll be on about how they're trying to sabotage "our" Lewis :rolleyes:

[Flat.tyres]

The question everyone should be asking is where is the evidence to show that McLaren used Ferrari's IP.

Shifting the goalposts to make any sort of charge against McLaren may be an entertaining distraction, but it doesn't alter the central charge that has yet to be answered.

Thank you.

[Robinho]

i was going to withold my opinion til after thursday, but the way i see it, obviously Ferrari were incencesd at the last hearings result that McLaren escaped punishment completley, and perhaps rightly so, it is a dangerous precedent, although i also feel McLaren have not actually done anything deliberate and that the actions were outside of the individuals corporate roles.

however, with the threat of further action, Ferrari have clearly done everyhting possible to get something, however flimsy, that is enough to reconvene the council, and to publicly claim that it is dynamite, in order to shift McLarens focus and rattle their main rivals - and why not, the FIA left the door wide open for this. as a result i eexpect that the council will hear some further, possibley circumstantial evidence, enough to have a hearing, but not enought to do anything more than perhaps fine McLaren, the impetus for the investigation being that Ferrrai distract their rvals, although this doesn't seem to have succeeded.

i could be completley wrong, and perhaps Ferrari have a smoking gun and dire sanctions await McLaren, but i can't help think they'd be more rattled, less confrontational and seeking resolutions behind closed doors if McLaren believed this to be true - hopefully (doubtfully) this will all be sorted tomorrow and the whole thing can be put to bed, but i don't think there will be a satisfactory resolution for both sides, so unfortunately this is likely to rumble on a while yet.

[ioan]

Third, "the evidence does not include details of what was said in phone calls and texts".

Hardly conclusive, and not enough to change the original verdict.

Is the evidence being shaped to suit a pre-determined verdict or will the verdict actually reflect the evidence?

But the emails will be containing the text with everything needed, so don't worry! :p :

[ioan]

however, with the threat of further action, Ferrari have clearly done everyhting possible to get something, however flimsy, that is enough to reconvene the council,

You might want to consider that it is the FIA who canceled Ferrari's appeal and reconvened the Council! It wasn't Ferrari.

Twisting facts isn't nice at all! ;)

[SteveA]

Will McLaren race at Spa ?

They'd better, I'm not going all the way there just to watch "the monkeys at the back"!

[Flat.tyres]

You might want to consider that it is the FIA who canceled Ferrari's appeal and reconvened the Council! It wasn't Ferrari.

Twisting facts isn't nice at all! ;)

Facts, FACTS!!!

Nearly choked on my horlicks ;)

Can you just confirm a fact for me then. Who supplied the data to the FIA that caused them to turn this from an appeal hearing into a reconvened hearing which would undoubtly be Ferraris wish?

[Bagwan]

They'd better, I'm not going all the way there just to watch "the monkeys at the back"!

Sorry to suggest that your weekend will be ruined , Steve .

But , it is a distinct possibility .


The monkeys might just put on a good show for you , though .
Whether McLaren is there or not , certainly BMW Sauber is figuring they and Ferrari might be a little pre-occupied with this mess , and so will definitely be looking to put a car on the podium at least , if not the top step , itself .
Renault will be hoping for a sniff , too , no doubt .

So , not all so bad .

[ioan]

Facts, FACTS!!!

From your posts I can only deduce that You don't know what FACTS are!


Nearly choked on my horlicks ;)

You would have spared us the trouble to read your above ranting! :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

If McLaren don't race at Spa, my pickems are buggered :bigcry:

[Flat.tyres]

From your posts I can only deduce that You don't know what FACTS are!



You would have spared us the trouble to read your above ranting! :laugh:

Was I ranting? Perhaps it was because you might sometimes be alledged to have twisted facts and posted untruths. I just found it a bit ironic ;)

Anyway, as you call it twisting facts, perhaps you could answer the question ;)

[markabilly]

Mark

There has long been a vendetta between Max and Ron. Everyone knows it.

I don't think I've read a post on here that defends what Stepney and Coghlan did. I also cannot recall a post that will defend McLaren if they knowingly made use of the data and have personally said that I agree they should be punished if it wasn't the case that Couglan was acting alone.

Who has ever defended stealing on here?

Who has defended stealing?
Everyone who says that MAc has to show that Mac made knowing use to the benefit of Mac when Mac failed to properly report the crime

Everyone who says FA or anyone else is a "rat' or "ratting out" mac, by implication condemns the behavior of reporting a crime, and praises not reporting the crime, even though not reporting makes them an accessory to the theft.

To repeat myself

1) Person in possession of stolen property is committing a crime, regardless of whether they stole it or someone else did, and they only possessed it, but never used it. Period.

2) Merely being in possession is use of property

3) Hiding the theft is proof of use

4) For a company, that person must be someone high enough to use it to the advantage of the company as was MC


5) It is presumed that when one is in possession of property where the owner is known, and the owner did not consent to the possession, that the person has converted or is attempting to convert it to their own use.

All of the above is subject to being rebutted by proof that the person in possession was not in a position to make use of it for the company benefit, that there was no intent to convert it, because it was never used AND was trying to return it to the rightful owner (it is called "lost and found" department)---but the burden is on the accused to rebut the presumptions

6. The mere fact of failing to report makes them an accessory to the theft and any intended or actual use by the thief.


"an accessory is distinguished from an accomplice who normally is present at the crime and participates in some way. An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way, or simply by failing to report the crime to proper authority."

"a person who learns of the crime and gives some form of assistance before the crime is committed is known as an "accessory before the fact". A person who learns of the crime after it is committed and helps the criminal to conceal it, or aids the criminal in escaping, or simply fails to report the crime, is known as an "accessory after the fact". "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_%28legal_term%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term))


Therefore
1. Merely failing to report is a crime-Undisputed that Mac did not report
2. Mac actually told MC to take evasive action, just go do it somewhere else-undisputed
3. Mac used info from NS/MC to make the "inquiry" as to the floor-undisputed
4. MC was not a mere employee but someone with discretion within the company and in position to make use of the property to the benefit of the company-undisputed
5. Mac agreed to be responsible for the actions of their employees-undisputed

6. By its very nature, proof of use and benefit are very difficult, if impossible, if one does not have the info and the cars in the pre- and post condition (which did not happen here), unless someone confesses..............

7. But on the other hand, proof of use and benefit beyond mere possession is not necessary


A massive fine and loss of some points at the first hearing should have closed the matter, but then they issue this nonsense finding of no proof of competitive benefit and advantage....

[ioan]

Can you just confirm a fact for me then. Who supplied the data to the FIA that caused them to turn this from an appeal hearing into a reconvened hearing which would undoubtly be Ferraris wish?

Fernando Alonso and Pedro De La Rosa.

[Flat.tyres]

Fernando Alonso and Pedro De La Rosa.

Link please.

[Flat.tyres]

Who has defended stealing?
Everyone who says that MAc has to show that Mac made knowing use to the benefit of Mac when Mac failed to properly report the crime

Everyone who says FA or anyone else is a "rat' or "ratting out" mac, by implication condemns the behavior of reporting a crime, and praises not reporting the crime, even though not reporting makes them an accessory to the theft.

To repeat myself

1) Person in possession of stolen property is committing a crime, regardless of whether they stole it or someone else did, and they only possessed it, but never used it. Period.

2) Merely being in possession is use of property

3) Hiding the theft is proof of use

4) For a company, that person must be someone high enough to use it to the advantage of the company as was MC


5) It is presumed that when one is in possession of property where the owner is known, and the owner did not consent to the possession, that the person has converted or is attempting to convert it to their own use.

All of the above is subject to being rebutted by proof that the person in possession was not in a position to make use of it for the company benefit, that there was no intent to convert it, because it was never used AND was trying to return it to the rightful owner (it is called "lost and found" department)---but the burden is on the accused to rebut the presumptions

6. The mere fact of failing to report makes them an accessory to the theft and any intended or actual use by the thief.


"an accessory is distinguished from an accomplice who normally is present at the crime and participates in some way. An accessory must generally have knowledge that a crime is being, or will be committed. A person with such knowledge may become an accessory by helping or encouraging the criminal in some way, or simply by failing to report the crime to proper authority."

"a person who learns of the crime and gives some form of assistance before the crime is committed is known as an "accessory before the fact". A person who learns of the crime after it is committed and helps the criminal to conceal it, or aids the criminal in escaping, or simply fails to report the crime, is known as an "accessory after the fact". "


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_%28legal_term%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_%28legal_term%29)


Therefore
1. Merely failing to report is a crime-Undisputed that Mac did not report
2. Mac actually told MC to take evasive action, just go do it somewhere else-undisputed
3. Mac used info from NS/MC to make the "inquiry" as to the floor-undisputed
4. MC was not a mere employee but someone with discretion within the company and in position to make use of the property to the benefit of the company-undisputed
5. Mac agreed to be responsible for the actions of their employees-undisputed

6. By its very nature, proof of use and benefit are very difficult, if impossible, if one does not have the info and the cars in the pre- and post condition (which did not happen here), unless someone confesses..............

7. But on the other hand, proof of use and benefit beyond mere possession is not necessary


A massive fine and loss of some points at the first hearing should have closed the matter, but then they issue this nonsense finding of no proof of competitive benefit and advantage....

I don't know if you're deliberatly confusing the facts or not but lets repeat whats been reported.

NS sent some info to MC about an illigal device on the Ferari that circumnavigated the testing process designed to identify it.

Ferrari raced with this device.

McLaren asked for clarification of such a device.

The FIA confirmed that such a device would in fact be illegal and changed their testing process to stop people using this type of illegal advice.

Are we agreed so far? McLaren derived no benefit for their car but stopped a competitor obtaining an unfair advantage.

Then we have Stepneygate where the 780 page dossier was found in a Chip Shop according to VB ;)

Now, NS pinched it and MC was in posession of it. At the moment, we have no evidence that they had any intention on sharing it with McLaren as the strong suspicion is that they were using it to their own financial gain by jumping to a competitor ie Honda. Nick got wind of the controvacy and told them to sling their hook.

So, NS and MC are left holding the baby, Ferrari inform McL and McL co-operate with inquiries.

McLaren get found guilty because the Dossier was with one of their employees but as it looked like this was a rogue employee acting on his own volition, there was no evidence that McLaren corporate were involved, hence they weren't penalised.

I think that's the potted history.

There has been an allergation that the first hearing did not have all evidence and that McLaren did in fact use the data in the dossier. If that is the case, then they will be hung, drawen and quartered by Max.

Lets find out tomorrow.

[markabilly]

I don't know if you're deliberatly confusing the facts or not but lets repeat whats been reported.

NS sent some info to MC about an illigal device on the Ferari that circumnavigated the testing process designed to identify it.

Ferrari raced with this device.

McLaren asked for clarification of such a device.

The FIA confirmed that such a device would in fact be illegal and changed their testing process to stop people using this type of illegal advice.

Are we agreed so far? McLaren derived no benefit for their car but stopped a competitor obtaining an unfair advantage.

Then we have Stepneygate where the 780 page dossier was found in a Chip Shop according to VB ;)

Now, NS pinched it and MC was in posession of it. At the moment, we have no evidence that they had any intention on sharing it with McLaren as the strong suspicion is that they were using it to their own financial gain by jumping to a competitor ie Honda. Nick got wind of the controvacy and told them to sling their hook.

So, NS and MC are left holding the baby, Ferrari inform McL and McL co-operate with inquiries.

McLaren get found guilty because the Dossier was with one of their employees but as it looked like this was a rogue employee acting on his own volition, there was no evidence that McLaren corporate were involved, hence they weren't penalised.

I think that's the potted history.

There has been an allergation that the first hearing did not have all evidence and that McLaren did in fact use the data in the dossier. If that is the case, then they will be hung, drawen and quartered by Max.

Lets find out tomorrow.

The FIA confirmed that such a device would in fact be illegal and changed their testing process to stop people using this type of illegal advice.

Are we agreed so far? McLaren derived no benefit for their car but stopped a competitor obtaining an unfair advantage

The only conclusion then is that Mac did make use of it for their benefit in stopping ferrari, regardless of whether the floor was illegal or not, and in the process, DID NOT REPORT the crime


So, NS and MC are left holding the baby, Ferrari inform McL and McL co-operate with inquiries.

McLaren get found guilty because the Dossier was with one of their employees but as it looked like this was a rogue employee acting on his own volition, there was no evidence that McLaren corporate were involved, hence they weren't penalised.

As chief designer, MC was a corporate type, and not a mere employee....evidence undisputed about how mac told them to not use our copier etc, to hide any involvment or accusaations against Mac as well as failing, again, to report the crime.

again it is defending stealing when one has a relationship with some such as MC, and fails to report the crime...that is use and benefit......
but i shall wait...already made my prediction so all those LH and FA fans need not worry (unless maxipad lied, in writing, when he told the drivers no penalities on them, as banning mac for the rest of the year or just one race is just THAT on the drivers)

[Flat.tyres]

Well, Maxipad has already confirmed he will not hold true to his promise of Amnesty for the drivers.

[ioan]

Link please.


http://www.google.com

[DimitraF1]

Can fia do that? mclaren have the best car out there, but if ferrari can give evidence in the court that they cheat,then can they become champs??????????

[luvracin]

Can the FIA disqualify Mclaren?!

Of course they bloody can!

[kalasend]

Can the FIA disqualify Mclaren?!

Of course they bloody can!

Yeah, problem is whether they will...

[Dzeidzei]

there was no evidence that McLaren corporate were involved, hence they weren't penalised.

I think that's the potted history.

Dear Flatman,

you´re being naive. Period.

Your attitude reminds me of a story about a man who comes home only to find his neighbors d**k in his wife´s mouth. "But I wasnt sucking it" says the wife.

You´d believe the wife.

RD knew what he was sucking. On Thursday he´ll get what he deserves.

[markabilly]

Dear Flatman,

you´re being naive. Period.

Your attitude reminds me of a story about a man who comes home only to find his neighbors d**k in his wife´s mouth. "But I wasnt sucking it" says the wife.

You´d believe the wife.

RD knew what he was sucking. On Thursday he´ll get what he deserves.

it would seem to me that whether to believe the wife would depend upon whether the rest of the neighbor was still located in the neighbor's house....... :eek: :eek:

[Phoenixent]

Dear Flatman,

you´re being naive. Period.

Your attitude reminds me of a story about a man who comes home only to find his neighbors d**k in his wife´s mouth. "But I wasnt sucking it" says the wife.

You´d believe the wife.

RD knew what he was sucking. On Thursday he´ll get what he deserves.

You have made my day with that one. :laugh: :laugh:

As to quote a man most thought was great. "It all depends what the meaning of is is" :D Just another funny line. :laugh:

Thanks :up:

[JasonD]

Best bet, the team will be disqualified from the WCC, but the drivers will still be eligable for the WDC.

[LTalbot]

It could happen, but having read that Montezemolo said it would be a richly deserved way for Ferrari to win the championship leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and I'm a big Ferrari fan. Championships should be won on the track and not in board rooms. This whole thing is about Mosley's power and trying to get Ron Dennis.


http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32732

[mstillhere]

Dear Flatman,

you´re being naive. Period.

Your attitude reminds me of a story about a man who comes home only to find his neighbors d**k in his wife´s mouth. "But I wasnt sucking it" says the wife.

You´d believe the wife.

RD knew what he was sucking. On Thursday he´ll get what he deserves.

it's histerical. How about Bill Clinton, former President of the USA, smoking pot but he said he did not do anything wrong because: "I was not inhaling"

[Hondo]

No wonder NASCAR is so popular. Cheating there has a long and honored history and is considered a delightfully creative art form to be admired.

[Blackburn Buccaneer]

OK, from what I've heard, this is very dubious.

First, it doesn't relate to the 780 page dossier which this investigation centeres on.

Second, it is apparently heresay and rumours that have been flowing backwards and forwards. I am awaiting to see evidence that McLaren used Ferrari material as evidence and not some sort of Jungle Drum communication by text message on what may or may not be relevant. What a crock of rubbish.

Evidence? They should be laughed out of court.

One little point of interest is the back stabbing mentality of Max in saying drivers wont be punished for coming forth and then withdrawing it once they have. :laugh:

Personally, if it's proven that the drivers knowingly accepted physical Ferrari data then they need to be sanctioned as I said earlier in the thread but after offering an amnesty, you cant withdraw it (unless you are Max)

very reasonable.
If the hammer does fall tomorrow: this will be my final post: i'll be turning in my membership here.

[Valve Bounce]

very reasonable.
If the hammer does fall tomorrow: this will be my final post: i'll be turning in my membership here.

Why you choose to blame this forum for the decisions of the FIA are beyond my comprehension.


This is a discussion forum, where everyone is entitled to her or his opinion, and are entitled to express them, even when others may disagree with them.

[markabilly]

Best bet, the team will be disqualified from the WCC, but the drivers will still be eligable for the WDC.

Or some more major points lost

but if outright banned then that is the same as punishing FA and LH, when Maxie said they would be immune from any penalty for being nice and "helping out"---

ok so the two boys can still drive their toys...except that they have no toys to drive and if they can not drive their toys then they can not have any more points, and if they cannot score points then they can not have their WDC cause at some point one of the ferrari boys may score enough points to be WDC (assuming that ferrrari remembers to put in enuff gas

although some have said that maxie has already indicated that he may have changed his mind on no penalties for the driver a/k/a
he lied

[grantb4]

IF McLaren are found guilty then Ferrari should be too. It takes two to tango.

IF mcLaren are found guilty we won't see the penalty until much later in the year lest ticket sales suffer as a result.

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this before but there's an interesting take on the whole situation from Paul Stoddart here (http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32733).

Today's the day :crazy: :eek:

[pino]

Today's the day :crazy: :eek:

Yes a very sad day for F1 :(

[ArrowsFA1]

Ferrari and McLaren have wheeled out the big guns for this morning's World Motor Sport Council hearing in Paris, with Ferrari reinforced by former technical director Ross Brawn.
The hearing has begun at 9:30 am local time.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62300

[Daniel]

Or some more major points lost

but if outright banned then that is the same as punishing FA and LH, when Maxie said they would be immune from any penalty for being nice and "helping out"---

ok so the two boys can still drive their toys...except that they have no toys to drive and if they can not drive their toys then they can not have any more points, and if they cannot score points then they can not have their WDC cause at some point one of the ferrari boys may score enough points to be WDC (assuming that ferrrari remembers to put in enuff gas

although some have said that maxie has already indicated that he may have changed his mind on no penalties for the driver a/k/a
he lied
As I said before there is confusion between prosecution and getting penalised.

If McLaren have cheated then LH and FA got an advantage from that and therefore it's wrong they keep their points and as happened in the Toyota '95 WRC scandal the drivers lost their points but were not prosecuted or banned from driving for any period. So what the FIA is saying is if you guys knew they were cheating and you grass them up you'll only lose your points. So if the drivers were aware of any fishy business going on they can escape prosecution and possibly a driving ban. If they were a party to any cheating and they don't give any evidence then who knows what will happen to them.......

I don't see why anyone would give up posting here or watching F1 just because one team may or may not have cheated. Formula 1 is bigger than one team.

[MAX_THRUST]

Well judgement day has arrived and will the row explode in Ferraris face or will the FIA realise no matter what, none of this is worth banning teams over. Lets hope common sense will prevail, and even if a crime has been committed in this case where the only peoples lives who will get ruined by the actions of others should only be the people at the top who poorly managed their own team and technical staff. If Stepney did, then he is to blame and if Mike received then he is to blame, dont drag all of the team in to this political mess...The drivers and the guys that put the wheels on the car arent to blame.

[Daniel]

Well judgement day has arrived and will the row explode in Ferraris face or will the FIA realise no matter what, none of this is worth banning teams over. Lets hope common sense will prevail, and even if a crime has been committed in this case where the only peoples lives who will get ruined by the actions of others should only be the people at the top who poorly managed their own team and technical staff. If Stepney did, then he is to blame and if Mike received then he is to blame, dont drag all of the team in to this political mess...The drivers and the guys that put the wheels on the car arent to blame.

I'm sorry but that's a really immature attitude. If there is cheating than there should be punishment and it should be swift and sharp. If punishment for a major crime isn't sufficient to deter people from commiting the crime then people will just keep on cheating and F1 will just get a bad name. The FIA needs to come out and show that it values fair play otherwise the whole sport will just go to the dogs. If McLaren cheated then it's no one elses fault other than theirs that FA, LH and any other possible innocent parties lose out of get their names dragged through the mud.

[Dave B]

I'm not going to be near a pooter this afternoon, so would those who know my mobile number do me the favour of texting me when there's any news? :)

[Daniel]

I'm not going to be near a pooter this afternoon, so would those who know my mobile number do me the favour of texting me when there's any news? :)
Will do if I have the right number :)

[Flat.tyres]

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this before but there's an interesting take on the whole situation from Paul Stoddart here (http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32733).

Today's the day :crazy: :eek:

Pauls a straight shooter.

Max is a meglomaniac who is probably out next year. The sport cannot go forward with this man in charge and his personal vendettas.

[leopard]

very reasonable.
If the hammer does fall tomorrow: this will be my final post: i'll be turning in my membership here.
Please no, Forum needs scientist

[Flat.tyres]

Funny how Alonso isn't at the hearing today. ;) Today is about McLaren moving forward and the core team is together in Paris to spearhead this.

Lets hope that today will be the end of all the rubbish and we can get back to the racing. I think old Luca isn't going to be happy because he aint gonna win through the courts and he has no chance on the track :laugh:

[Daniel]

Funny how Alonso isn't at the hearing today. ;) Today is about McLaren moving forward and the core team is together in Paris to spearhead this.

Lets hope that today will be the end of all the rubbish and we can get back to the racing. I think old Luca isn't going to be happy because he aint gonna win through the courts and he has no chance on the track :laugh:
How do you KNOW that Ferrari isn't going to win in the courtroom? If it comes out through evidence that gets released to the public that McLaren cheated and Ron comes out and admits he got caught then you'll have lots of egg to wipe off your face.

[ArrowsFA1]

Funny how Alonso isn't at the hearing today.
That is odd given his emails were central to the 'new evidence' not so long ago. Alonso himself said that was "a lie" and perhaps those who claimed to know what was in the emails did not know after all :crazy: :p :

[Ian McC]

One things for sure, if McLaren escape any forms of punishment then there will be howls of conspiracy from people on here. Probably won't be much better on here if they are punished either ;)

[Ian McC]

That is odd given his emails were central to the 'new evidence' not so long ago. Alonso himself said that was "a lie" and perhaps those who claimed to know what was in the emails did not know after all :crazy: :p :


Five Live just said Lewis was giving evidence, why isn't Alonso there then?

[Daniel]

One things for sure, if McLaren escape any forms of punishment then there will be howls of conspiracy from people on here. Probably won't be much better on here if they are punished either ;)
See my thread in forum feedback ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

No link for this, but it has been suggested elsewhere that the reason for McLaren raising the issue of Renault to the FIA in connection with this case is that an ex-McLaren employee took McLaren information (in the form of computer disks) with them to Renault :crazy:

[Hawkmoon]

Five Live just said Lewis was giving evidence, why isn't Alonso there then?

It could be because he's part of the Thursday press conference at the GP. Though why they scheduled him to be there today of all days is anybody's guess. :confused:

There's going to be howls of protest no matter what the outcome.

Perhaps all the McLaren fans should think about how they would feel if Ferrari had acquired McLaren data. Would they still be calling acquital?

Likewise for we of the Tifosi. Would we wan't our Reds strung up if Stepney and Coughlan's roles had been reversed?

[markabilly]

FA is NOT there?

Most strange given all the stuff to date about what he knows...

LH is there as a character witness? "Father Ron has always been like a father to me...." or to remind everyone that the Hamster is the newest biggest asset to bernie enrie and please do not damage his goodies (but as to RD, well so long, bye bye, that is ok, just not do in the Hamster??)

[ArrowsFA1]

Autosport are carrying comments from Mike Coughlan about the case today:

"I can honestly say that McLaren received no benefit whatsoever in relation to their car or any aspect of its performance and that no use of any of the material has been made in relation to the car."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62303

[ioan]

Autosport are carrying comments from Mike Coughlan about the case today:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62303

Believing a thief, this is the question!

[ioan]

Likewise for we of the Tifosi. Would we wan't our Reds strung up if Stepney and Coughlan's roles had been reversed?

I would be ashamed about it. And would never try to pull McLaren down the way Mclaren fans are doing it with Ferrari in this case!

[markabilly]

Autosport are carrying comments from Mike Coughlan about the case today:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62303

Reading through the article makes it very clear there was extremely limited contact between the two of an almost innocent nature ....

OTOH, if what is true about the rumored email, atm trail, the article makes him look like a total liar who knowingly perjured himself, if this is what he told the FIA in his affividavit...........(if one compares what he says in the article to what is allegedly shown by the email trail, hence "plausible denialability" is todt...)

[ArrowsFA1]

Coughlan's evidence is that which was presented at the original hearing in July.

[Garry Walker]

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&team_id=10&month=9&year=2007&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=27752

Information has just come to our attention that McLaren, who are currently in front of the world motorsport council in Paris, have been hit with some very incriminating evidence that suggests the MP4-22 has gained half a second a lap thanks to the stolen Ferrari data that is at the centre of the ‘spy affair’.

According to our sources, the FIA has scoured the 160 page file, the latest evidence in this affair, with a fine tooth and discovered certain revelations. There are approximately thirty e-mail exchanges between Alonso, de la Rosa and Paddy Lowe (director of engineering at McLaren), and they all contain confidential classified information from Ferrari. It is said that Lowe would have explored the new technical solutions that came from the information that was obtained by Mike Coughlan via Nigel Stepney. Meanwhile, even though de la Rosa and Alonso were well-informed, it appears that they did not take an active part in cementing the new explorations.

The exchange of electronic communication between the 3 men is also said to reveal that Ferrari’s race strategies were known at the beginning of year, in particular for the Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne.

It was also made available to automoto365.com that any car, for example the MP4-22, using the stolen data from Ferrari could gain approximately half a second a lap, a figure estimated by Ross Brawn (former technical director of the Scuderia), when questioned by the FIA due to his obvious knowledge on the matter, especially his knowledge of the technical and technological solutions that have most recently been used by Ferrari who have conferred with him in his sabbatical year. Hence Brawns attendance at this morning’s hearing…..

:rotflmao:

Some parts of Coughlans version of the events are so unbelieveably stupid, I know 9 year olds who wouldnt be fooled by that.

[Daniel]

http://f1.automoto365.com/news/controller.php?lang=en&theme=default&team_id=10&month=9&year=2007&nextMode=GpNewsForm&news_id=27752

Information has just come to our attention that McLaren, who are currently in front of the world motorsport council in Paris, have been hit with some very incriminating evidence that suggests the MP4-22 has gained half a second a lap thanks to the stolen Ferrari data that is at the centre of the ‘spy affair’.

According to our sources, the FIA has scoured the 160 page file, the latest evidence in this affair, with a fine tooth and discovered certain revelations. There are approximately thirty e-mail exchanges between Alonso, de la Rosa and Paddy Lowe (director of engineering at McLaren), and they all contain confidential classified information from Ferrari. It is said that Lowe would have explored the new technical solutions that came from the information that was obtained by Mike Coughlan via Nigel Stepney. Meanwhile, even though de la Rosa and Alonso were well-informed, it appears that they did not take an active part in cementing the new explorations.

The exchange of electronic communication between the 3 men is also said to reveal that Ferrari’s race strategies were known at the beginning of year, in particular for the Australian Grand Prix in Melbourne.

It was also made available to automoto365.com that any car, for example the MP4-22, using the stolen data from Ferrari could gain approximately half a second a lap, a figure estimated by Ross Brawn (former technical director of the Scuderia), when questioned by the FIA due to his obvious knowledge on the matter, especially his knowledge of the technical and technological solutions that have most recently been used by Ferrari who have conferred with him in his sabbatical year. Hence Brawns attendance at this morning’s hearing…..

:rotflmao:

Some parts of Coughlans version of the events are so unbelieveably stupid, I know 9 year olds who wouldnt be fooled by that.
If that be true then a certain type of muslim minus and i and an e could hit the fan............

[ioan]

Some parts of Coughlans version of the events are so unbelieveably stupid, I know 9 year olds who wouldnt be fooled by that.

Exactly what I was thinking too. Let's see now what's the average age of the WMSC is! :D

[Ian McC]

And would never try to pull McLaren down the way Mclaren fans are doing it with Ferrari in this case!


Plenty enough mud slinging on both sides

[markabilly]

Coughlan's evidence is that which was presented at the original hearing in July.

I said "almost innocent nature"--

it does show substantial involvment by upper brass at Mac in the exam of the three "detail issues" of which two were subject to mc inquiry with FIA, and the knowledge of Mac that this stuff was stolen and illicit

AND that they never ever reported it....making all of these people into accessories after the fact, in the thefts....and any intended or actual uses were thereby being facilitated and made possible by the lack of reporting....

then if the other stuff about other contacts between the two comes to be true, then perjury knowingly committed...and loss of credibility when the claim is "I saw it, but I did not use it" :( :(

[Daniel]

I said "almost innocent nature"--

it does show substantial involvment by upper brass at Mac in the exam of the three "detail issues" of which two were subject to mc inquiry with FIA, and the knowledge of Mac that this stuff was stolen and illicit

AND that they never ever reported it....making all of these people into accessories after the fact, in the thefts....and any intended or actual uses were thereby being facilitated and made possible by the lack of reporting....

then if the other stuff about other contacts between the two comes to be true, then perjury knowingly committed...and loss of credibility when the claim is "I saw it, but I did not use it" :( :(
Would you answer a question incorrectly in an exam if you'd already seen the answer key and knew the answer.

If you answer no you are honest
If you answer yes you work for McLaren :)

[ArrowsFA1]

...any car, for example the MP4-22, using the stolen data from Ferrari could gain approximately half a second a lap, a figure estimated by Ross Brawn
Once again speculation, and speculation (in the context of this hearing) based on the assumption that McLaren used the information leaked from Ferrari. Ross's guesstimate does not suggest they did so and it certainly does not prove it.

[Daniel]

Once again speculation, and speculation (in the context of this hearing) based on the assumption that McLaren used the information leaked from Ferrari. Ross's guesstimate does not suggest they did so and it certainly does not prove it.
Of course. He's there purely to give evidence as a witness so as to establish a motive. They have to prove that McLaren would benefit from the information before a penalty can be levied against them...... If Brawn had said "They wouldn't have gained any benefit from it at all" the case would simply collapse.

[markabilly]

Would you answer a question incorrectly in an exam if you'd already seen the answer key and knew the answer.

If you answer no you are honest
If you answer yes you work for McLaren :)

Hey...Prez Clinton won elections even though he said "I smoked it, but I never inhaled..." and "I never had sex with that woman...." (as to the latter, he should have simply said "a man got to do what a man's got to do, and guys, I live with Hilliary so you should now be able to understand why...")

so why not say, "I saw it but I never used it" and be believed by the rest of the world

As long as you got enough kool aid.....

[ArrowsFA1]

Of course. He's there purely to give evidence as a witness so as to establish a motive. They have to prove that McLaren would benefit from the information before a penalty can be levied against them...... If Brawn had said "They wouldn't have gained any benefit from it at all" the case would simply collapse.
So if McLaren hadn't used any information from Ferrari how does Brawn explain their performance gain? The answer to that question would be as relevant as his guesstimate, particularly as the "evidence" seems designed to show that the only way Ferrari are being beaten this year is that McLaren are using their data.

[Daniel]

So if McLaren hadn't used any information from Ferrari how does Brawn explain their performance gain? The answer to that question would be as relevant as his guesstimate, particularly as the "evidence" seems designed to show that the only way Ferrari are being beaten this year is that McLaren are using their data.
Jeez I wonder.....

Perhaps if McLaren haven't used Ferrari information then they may have made gains with development or perhaps the drivers are faster? :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

The World Motor Sport Council hearing in Paris has been adjourned for lunch, with proceedings now expected to go for longer than originally planned.

According to those present at the hearing room, the morning section was dominated primarily by statements from Lewis Hamilton, who has by now left the FIA building, and engineering director Paddy Lowe.

The proceedings, however, were marred by heated discussions, which have vastly prolonged the hearing beyond its original schedule.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62305

[Valve Bounce]

Do you guys think that the Magpies will win tomorrow or the Eagles?

[Daniel]

Do you guys think that the Magpies will win tomorrow or the Eagles?
Eagles of course :)

[Valve Bounce]

Eagles of course :)

OK, let's bet our sig - I'll back the Magpies even though I will never, in my life, cheer for them.

[markabilly]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62305
At the speed noted in the article, how are they going to get through all of this before the end of the day, along with a vote....

[Daniel]

OK, let's bet our sig - I'll back the Magpies even though I will never, in my life, cheer for them.
Nope :p My sig is staying as is ;)

[pino]

Do you guys think that the Magpies will win tomorrow or the Eagles?

Valve this isn't chat-room, so please let's stick to the topic...thanks :)

[Daniel]

Valve this isn't chat-room, so please let's stick to the topic...thanks :)
I think Valve was only trying to lighten the mood ;) Could be wrong though :)

[Valve Bounce]

Valve this isn't chat-room, so please let's stick to the topic...thanks :)

pino, you want the the truth why Alonso didn't turn up for the hearing?

He was kidnapped by Elvis. :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

At the speed noted in the article, how are they going to get through all of this before the end of the day, along with a vote....
No idea :crazy: Court cases judging these kind of things can take weeks :eek: :s mokin:

Autosport's original report (post #377) has been updated:

According to those present at the hearing room, Lewis Hamilton made a brief visit to the hearing room but was not questioned or examined. He has since left the FIA building.
The morning section was, rather, dominated primarily by a detailed examination of McLaren engineering director Paddy Lowe's testimony.

[Daniel]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32749 Alonso is there too.

[Ian McC]

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=32749 Alonso is there too.


No he isn't


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62308

[Daniel]

Haha my link now links to a blank page :laugh:

[Mark]

When any result is known please start a new thread to aid those of us who don't want to wade through this one :p

[janneppi]

That's actually a good idea, I'll lock this one when something worthwhile happens.

[ArrowsFA1]

The World Motor Sport Council (WMSC) has heard all the evidence and is currently considering their decision.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm

[Daniel]

That's actually a good idea, I'll lock this one when something worthwhile happens.
Boooo hiss! Evil mods :p Seriously though that's a good idea.