1984 is here...

[Skid Marx]

War is peace, freedom is slavery, and according to Marty Reid, they're celebrating the Indycar Series' "Return to Belle Isle." The IRL seems to have everyone helping push the Big Lie. Even Helio Castroneves says Belle Isle is where he had his first "Indycar Series win." Pathetic...

Now Scott Goodyear gets in on the act, saying: "Earlier in this series, when I was still participating, we had more road courses, with a few ovals sprinkled in." Oh really, Scott? And exactly when in the history of the IRL would that have been?

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm with ya, Skid. If they'd throw in an F1 reference or two, the puzzle would be complete.

[call_me_andrew]

History is only BASED on a true story.

[cobre]

c'mon folks the continual hair splitting is ridiculous

[Komahawk]

If 1984 really was here, Mario would win the title. Get this ridiculous thread moved to the CC board or deleted alltogether.

[Skid Marx]

If 1984 really was here, Mario would win the title. Get this ridiculous thread moved to the CC board or deleted alltogether.

Moved to the CC board? And why would that be? All the remarks cited were during an IRL telecast, by IRL announcers and/or drivers. Seems IRL-related if you ask me. Of course, we know your real motive: to get the thread deleted altogether. How very fitting, in light of the title of the thread! Just like in 1984, silence the truth wherever you can... :rolleyes:

[MAX_THRUST]

I just don't know why they can't say during the CART races, ok so they want to make it clear that they are basically the same thing to not confuse new fans and casual viewers......!!!!! Americans have a great history of twisting the past to suit what they want, they do it in Hollywood and do it in the IRL it seems. Sad really, I never saw Castro Neves win at Detroit in an IRL car before. It;s not that difficult to say CART era, the IRL may gain a little more respect than it currently does by sticking two fingers up at all the CART fans. The IRL continues with its belief they were and have been the only series ever.............TG is a 'FLACKING' DREAMER!!!!! Idiots running the marketing department, they have done well this year and stupid comments like that just wind fans like me up. It is pathetic. IRL is different to CART as is CCWS to the IRL.

[Komahawk]

I realize the IRL as such never had a race at Belle Isle before, however IndyCar had. Nobody said that the IRL returned to Belle Isle, just IndyCar. And that much is true. Fact is the series name was "IndyCar" then, and it's "IndyCar" today. Only a different sanctioning body.

CC are the ones twisting the past. Whenever talking about the pre-split days it's "ChampCar this" and "ChampCar that". Fact is that the term "ChampCar" was practically NEVER used before the split, nor had hardly ANY fan (or probably any official) ever heard of it. And although you guys didn't say it outright, if CC scheduled a race at Watkins Glen you'd be talking about "the return of ChampCar to WG" which would be just as confusing.

Why move it to the CC-board? Hm let's see...
Obviously you guys feel the need to discuss the greatness and glory of CART, so that would be a CC-topic.

And why delete it?
It's a thread that was designed to be a TG/IRL basher, and that's what it has turned into. Bashing should have no place here.

[Komahawk]

Moved to the CC board? And why would that be? All the remarks cited were during an IRL telecast, by IRL announcers and/or drivers. Seems IRL-related if you ask me. Of course, we know your real motive: to get the thread deleted altogether. How very fitting, in light of the title of the thread! Just like in 1984, silence the truth wherever you can... :rolleyes:


My motive is having to read fewer bashing- and biased hater-comments. And talkin' 'bout the truth: CART is dead. It's gone. Live with it, focus on your street parade championship and leave the IRL board in peace.

EDIT: Oh I forgot, it's a "world championship". Sorry. I wouldn't want to hold back the truth, you know.

[MAX_THRUST]

I always knew it as the CART series, which used Indy Cars, ie not formula 1 or formula 3000 etc. I am not bashing the IRL anymore for what they do because I feel they are doing more right, and are moving in the right direction than CCWS, which is so far removed from CART. Turbo's and Newman Haas, aren't enough to make me think its the CART series.

I am amazed how often the IRL refers to old CART races, as there own history (very miss leading), and refer to CCWs as 'other series, or another series'.

Whats next???

Have some self respect, IRL fans, don't do yourselves down, by pretending something happened when it didn't. We should all celebrate in the glory that was CART and remember it well, then learn from the mistakes made back then. Don't try and claim it as your own history. Initially CCWS could because it was recogniseable still as CART, now its a mess. Those who win wars rewrite history to reflect them as victors. Didn't know TG was a historian, just thought he was a rich thick kid from Indiana.......

[Hoss Ghoul]

It is pathetic. IRL is different to CART as is CCWS to the IRL.

Is it? Is it really?

[fan-veteran]

But in fact, the so called IRL today has a little more common things with old pre split IndyCar than so called CCWS - Indy500, ovals, road and city tracks.

[Alexamateo]

Well, it's all the history of open wheel in the US, and we have two sanctioniong bodies. Last year, ChampCar wrote about Sebastien being the first to win three straight championships since Ted Horn. The AAA of then bears little resemblence to ChampCar now. It is though part of the evolution, right or wrong, and the IRL is also part of that evolution. Helio won at Belle Isle in 2001 driving for Roger Penske in what is commonly called an Indy Car, and he won the pole at Belle Isle in 2007 driving for Roger Penske in what is commonly called an Indy Car. I don't have any problem with it.

No one owns history, It is what it is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Last time I looked, both series were claiming the same mutual history, that of Champ Car/Indy racing. Gee, maybe the two series are more alike than the haters on either side want to admit.

The sad fact is, this event is precisely what Tony George railed against in 1994 when he started talking about his IRL. Just puts another nail in the coffin that is Tony George's credability. I would respect him a lot more if he stuck to his "vision" instead of giving the world another CART with half the interest, uglier cars and 1/4 of the attention. Now we are forced to try to watch two series with half the entertainment and say things are better.

No...this scenario has a lot to with 1984, you are told to believe something, and then when things change, well we ignore what we said in the past, this is the new reality.

[Easy Drifter]

If you want to bring up AAA racing the terms Big Cars and Champ Cars were both often used and most races were on dirt.

[xtlm]

ignore this please

[Skid Marx]

My motive is having to read fewer bashing- and biased hater-comments. And talkin' 'bout the truth: CART is dead. It's gone. Live with it, focus on your street parade championship and leave the IRL board in peace.

EDIT: Oh I forgot, it's a "world championship". Sorry. I wouldn't want to hold back the truth, you know.

Ha ha ha ha ha!!! You proclaim how dismayed you are at seeing all the bashing and biased haters, then within the very same post immediately start bashing the series you don't like! Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

[DBell]

I do remember during the telecast that the main announcer (don't know his name) pointed out the history when a graphic was showing the racing history of Belle Isle and he said the previous races were by "CART, now known as Champ Car".

I think the IRL trying to lay claim to CART history is as ridiculous as CC laying claim to the history back in the 40's and 50's like they did last year with the consecutive championships of SB.

There was no return to Belle Isle for the IRL. It was their inaugural race.

[Komahawk]

Ha ha ha ha ha!!! You proclaim how dismayed you are at seeing all the bashing and biased haters, then within the very same post immediately start bashing the series you don't like! Methinks the lady doth protest too much...

I consider my post an appropriate reply to the first couple of posts on this thread. Me thinks that when you're so overly concerned with pre-race TV comments of the Detroit race then the Assen race probably wasn't that exciting.

[Skid Marx]

I consider my post an appropriate reply to the first couple of posts on this thread. Me thinks that when you're so overly concerned with pre-race TV comments of the Detroit race then the Assen race probably wasn't that exciting.

Huh? What would one have to do with the other? They weren't telecast at the same time, and while one telecast had truthful commentators, the other had commentators spinning tall tales of past IRL glories that never were...

[Komahawk]

I do remember during the telecast that the main announcer (don't know his name) pointed out the history when a graphic was showing the racing history of Belle Isle and he said the previous races were by "CART, now known as Champ Car".

I think the IRL trying to lay claim to CART history is as ridiculous as CC laying claim to the history back in the 40's and 50's like they did last year with the consecutive championships of SB.

There was no return to Belle Isle for the IRL. It was their inaugural race.

The term "IRL" does not equal the term "IndyCar". IndyCar is the name of the series, IRL is the name of a sanctioning body. The IRL (and for a while I think the USAC) have been sanctioning IndyCar races from '96 onwards, while CART (another sanctioning body) sanctioned IndyCar races from '79 to '97. And before CART I think it was the USAC, although I'm not sure if the series was called "IndyCar" by then. Maybe a series history thread would be helpful.

I admit it's confusing. And I admit that the IRL is probably seeking to exploit this confusing situation by not mentioning that they weren't even in charge for the Belle Isle races the last couple times. I think it even was a similar situation in WG 2 years ago, when they promoted "openwheel's return to the Glen" and had a Rick Mears interview on their homepage, who won the last event there in '81 or so.
Hands down, most fans know and care little about sanctioning bodies of racing and IMO there's more important things, actual racing for instance. I just don't like the way this topic was presented and the direction it took early on. The IRL aren't lying, they're just not telling everything.

[Komahawk]

Huh? What would one have to do with the other? They weren't telecast at the same time, and while one telecast had truthful commentators, the other had commentators spinning tall tales of past IRL glories that never were...

I was actually assuming that the main reason for you (and others) to ramble about some pretty unimportant statements during the Detroit race was that you had too little other racing events to worry about or get distracted by. But I figure you will put your anti-IRL attitude in words at any given occasion, and this one was more than welcomed. Seems as if the IRL made your day, if not your entire weekend.

I for my part think that I've wasted enough time and effort on this childish topic. Maybe it's just me, but I prefer talking about who actually won the race while others care more about who sanctioned it.

[Alexamateo]

As far as anyone laying claim to history, I don't think either side has any more claim than the other.

As far as open wheel racing in this country, The AAA contest board awarded its first championship in 1905. Barney Oldfield won. They also awarded a championship in 1916 to Dario Resta. In 1927, they retroactively awarded points for races staged between 1909 to 1915, and 1917 to 1919. Then there's 1920 which either had 5 races and Gaston Chevrolet the champ or was actually 11 races and Tommy Milton was the champ, depending on who you believe.

(If you start looking at the history, Open wheel has always been a mess as far as I can determine.)

The AAA continued to sanction until the LeMans tragedy in 1955, after which USAC took over. NASCAR even started a "Speedway" division, but that folded after two years. CART was formed in 1979, and essentially took over from USAC which had no other races except the Indy 500 after 1981. The IRL started in 1996, and ChampCar was started in 2004 after CART's Bankruptcy in 2003.

Like it or not, it's all a part of the shared history. Helio Castroneves won at Belle Isle in 2001, in a race sanctioned by CART, Tony Kanaan won at Belle Isle in 2007, in a race sanctioned by the IRL. A list of Milwaukee winners is going to include Rex Mays (AAA), AJ Foyt (USAC), Rick Mears (CART), Sam Hornish Jr. (IRL) and Sebastien Bourdais (CCWS).

Whether we like each other or not, we are all still cousins, and this feud's been going on a long time, and long before the "split"