What Happens Next?

[sanguin]

Oh yea, I keep on hearing how the NFL and F1 are going to go under any minute now...

are you saying they are as profitable as the NFL and F1?

[pvtjoker]

In your opinion.

CC can wait to see how the cash outlay works for the other series.That will be very telling. I don't think CC has anything to worry about. IMO


Give me a break. If CC waits much longer the prospects of attracting new sponsors to CC will be nil. Perhaps you're hoping Chico's Bail Bond will step up and sponsor a KK car.

[pvtjoker]

well put, trans-am is totally different in that it was run on manufacturer support, CC is not.

No, but the dolt who ran Trans-Am into the ground now owns CC! Thats troublesome IMO.

[pits4me]

No, but the dolt who ran Trans-Am into the ground now owns CC! Thats troublesome IMO.

Utter nonsense pvt. If returning champion Brian Simo couldn't get a factory ride do you really think Trans-Am was in a position to be saved? When the early signs of struggle for title sponsorship surfaced, Claggett's group had to make a business decision and concentrate on ALMS.

For many in the paddock, they were happy the five time champion Gentilozzi stepped up to try to save the series. It was more of an emotional decision by PG in my opinion. The only similarity between that and CC is the fact there are still outside forces trying to undermine the motor racing market in North America for their own benefit.

Now they have JPM, AJ and JV at Talladega this weekend. Add Sam Hornish and Dario in 2008. Relentless pursuit of killing the "competition" is an understatement. That's why CC has taken the fight offshore.

[heelntoe]

To be fair, SCCA ran it into the ground before PG got his hands on it. He just finished the job.

Starter. I respect you, even when you slap me on the wrist :) , but respectfully, PG had the opportunity to make it work and his actions killed it...much the way we now see CCWS dying a slow death. the difference with PG was that he changed rules mid-stream, messed with great talent like Boris Said and Tommy Kendall and basically acted like it was his own plaything, which he could drive in and win whenever he wanted to..TB, you wanna' chime in here?

[gofastandwynn]

are you saying they are as profitable as the NFL and F1?

Well to use your own words, the IRL "is a private co. ,no one knows its' financials." (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=359954#post359954)

[nigelred5]

The similarities between the downfall of the two series(dwindling sponsors and manufacturer involvement), the failure of their core business plans (reliance on festivals and not racing) and the cast of characters( PG, SJ and various SCCA brass) are strikingly familiar.

I think we can safely say PG is not exactly a turn-around specialist.

[sanguin]

The similarities between the downfall of the two series(dwindling sponsors and manufacturer involvement),


Careful, you could be talking about another series too. They are not the same at all, CC has their own engines and does not rely on manufacturer support. This is why they won't fail.

[garyshell]

Careful, you could be talking about another series too. They are not the same at all, CC has their own engines and does not rely on manufacturer support. This is why they won't fail.

Please name ONE top level series that has ever survived without manufacturer involvement.

Gary

[weeflyonthewall]

No offense. My point is that SCCA had messed it up pretty well even before they leased it to PG. It was damaged goods when he took it on. He didn't do anything to fix that. Your point about it becomming PG's private plaything is very well taken.

Car clubs always have problems when it comes to running professional racing but they do a great job with volunteer course worker programs.

[Chaparral66]

To be fair, SCCA ran it into the ground before PG got his hands on it. He just finished the job.

Damn skippy.

[Chaparral66]

Starter. I respect you, even when you slap me on the wrist :) , but respectfully, PG had the opportunity to make it work and his actions killed it...much the way we now see CCWS dying a slow death. the difference with PG was that he changed rules mid-stream, messed with great talent like Boris Said and Tommy Kendall and basically acted like it was his own plaything, which he could drive in and win whenever he wanted to..TB, you wanna' chime in here?

This is basically a longer way of saying what Starter said, isn't it?

[Chaparral66]

Careful, you could be talking about another series too. They are not the same at all, CC has their own engines and does not rely on manufacturer support. This is why they won't fail.

Huh?

[Chaparral66]

Please name ONE top level series that has ever survived without manufacturer involvement.

Gary

What he said.

But there is a flip side to this, manufacturer involvement can be a killer too. Many still feel that the Penske Sunoco Porsche 917 driven by the late great Mark Donahue killed Can-Am racing in 1973. When the manufacturers get involved and the series can maintain a fairly even playing field, the series can be very successful. NASCAR has been able to maintain this delicate balance for decades.

[sanguin]

Please name ONE top level series that has ever survived without manufacturer involvement.

Gary

When a series depends on manufacturer support for its engines and cars, they run the risk of failure if those manufacturers pull out,like trans-am.

CC owns their engine manufacturer[cosworth) and their cars, they do not have that risk.

[sanguin]

Utter nonsense pvt. If returning champion Brian Simo couldn't get a factory ride do you really think Trans-Am was in a position to be saved? When the early signs of struggle for title sponsorship surfaced, Claggett's group had to make a business decision and concentrate on ALMS.

For many in the paddock, they were happy the five time champion Gentilozzi stepped up to try to save the series. It was more of an emotional decision by PG in my opinion. The only similarity between that and CC is the fact there are still outside forces trying to undermine the motor racing market in North America for their own benefit.

Now they have JPM, AJ and JV at Talladega this weekend. Add Sam Hornish and Dario in 2008. Relentless pursuit of killing the "competition" is an understatement. That's why CC has taken the fight offshore.

I agree.

[Jag_Warrior]

When a series depends on manufacturer support for its engines and cars, they run the risk of failure if those manufacturers pull out,like trans-am.

CC owns their engine manufacturer[cosworth) and their cars, they do not have that risk.

I understand your point. But whether it's auto manufacturer support (used to lease engines and purchase chassis), or it's sponsor funding, I'm not sure that I understand how not having the support of one or more sectors of sponsorship is a good thing.

One point you may be making is the power that the auto manufacturers tried to wield in the paddock. And that is an important point to remember. But the series hasn't become organized enough to create the sort of commercial value that consumer level sponsors are seeking... so now they seem to be leaving or avoiding CCWS too.

Apologies to George Lopez, but we seem to be stuck with FERA (instead of FEMA) to get drivers for us. FERA: Find Every Ride-buyer Available.

[sanguin]

I understand your point. But whether it's auto manufacturer support (used to lease engines and purchase chassis), or it's sponsor funding, I'm not sure that I understand how not having the support of one or more sectors of sponsorship is a good thing.

One point you may be making is the power that the auto manufacturers tried to wield in the paddock. And that is an important point to remember.

Thanks, That was my point. CC has their own engines and cars as opposed to a series that depends on manufacturers to supply them. If they leave, the series dies, CC will not.

I agree it is better to have manufacturer support than not, and CC needs that. Just saying it isn't the death blow.

[garyshell]

Please name ONE top level series that has ever survived without manufacturer involvement.

Gary


When a series depends on manufacturer support for its engines and cars, they run the risk of failure if those manufacturers pull out,like trans-am.

CC owns their engine manufacturer[cosworth) and their cars, they do not have that risk.


Wow really, having attended the original Can-Am series or IMSA I never would have know that? :rolleyes: Did you come up with that all by yourself?

Where in my statement did I say ANYTHING about dependence. I said INVOLVEMENT. And I await your answer, name ONE top level series that has survived without the INVOLVEMENT of the manufacturers.

Gary

[fan-veteran]

Well, what do you mean by involment - beacause somebody must manufacture the cars (and engines) and he becomes involved :) .

[pvtjoker]

To be fair, SCCA ran it into the ground before PG got his hands on it. He just finished the job.

Fair enough. But the thought that the salvation/future of CC is partially in his hands is frightful. he's done nothing to make me believe he has the best interest of the series at heart. Maybe his pockets (etc. Rusport deal, Tags, etc.), but not the series. Just sad.

[pits4me]

Fair enough. But the thought that the salvation/future of CC is partially in his hands is frightful. he's done nothing to make me believe he has the best interest of the series at heart. Maybe his pockets (etc. Rusport deal, Tags, etc.), but not the series. Just sad.

Another armchair quarterback theory Paul Gentilozzi bashing comment from the earl side? Please, give it a rest. If you can't agree there is a serious problem in the motor racing market then its pointless to discuss it.

[nigelred5]

When a series depends on manufacturer support for its engines and cars, they run the risk of failure if those manufacturers pull out,like trans-am.

CC owns their engine manufacturer[cosworth) and their cars, they do not have that risk.

And thus ChampCar has become nothing more than another blatantly undisguised and poorly promoted spec racing series without even a single manufacturer to foster it's existence. These guys could piss off the Pope.

[FlatChatRacer]

pits4me,

What do you think will happen next with Champ Car, particularly in 2008, given the difficulty in attracting sponsorship in the NAFTA markets?

[sanguin]

Another armchair quarterback theory Paul Gentilozzi bashing comment from the earl side? Please, give it a rest. If you can't agree there is a serious problem in the motor racing market then its pointless to discuss it.

I agree ,look at an update of the poll on autoracing1.com

"Which is the best top-level racing series?"
A1GP 1%

ALMS 6%

Champ Car 35%

F1 34%

Grand-AM 1%

IRL 9%

NASCAR 12%

V8 Supercars 3%

[ChaimWitz]

I agree ,look at an update of the poll on autoracing1.com

"Which is the best top-level racing series?"
A1GP 1%

ALMS 6%

Champ Car 35%

F1 34%

Grand-AM 1%

IRL 9%

NASCAR 12%

V8 Supercars 3%

Gee, we all know that the above poll reflects reality. The truth is that AR1 and CCF are likely the only places such results would be seen. I have seen many neutral, real world, third party surveys and they look nothing like the results above.

Here is a graph from Alexa.com that compares the relative web traffic trends from NASCAR.com, Formula1.com, ChampCarWorldSeries.com, IndyCar.com and AmericanLeMans.com:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?site0=nascar.com&site1=formula1.com&site2=ChampCarWorldSeries.com&site3=IndyCar.com&site4=AmericanLeMans.com&y=t&z=3&h=400&w=700&range=1y&size=Large&url=nascar.com

These are the Alexa traffic ranks for each site shown in the Autoracing1.com poll (out of all sites on the worldwide web):

Site / Rank

Formula1.com: 1694
NASCAR.com: 3234
IndyCar.com: 52,076
ChampCarWorldSeries.com: 73,903
v8supercar.com.au: 111,304
AmericanLeMans.com: 178,493
A1GP.com: 194,852
Grand-Am.com: 247,168

Since F1 and NASCAR are so far out in front, it is also interesting to look at the traffic rank history for the other series without the two front runners:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?site0=ChampCarWorldSeries.com&site1=Indycar.com&site2=www.v8supercar.com.au&site3=americanlemans.com&site4=A1GP.com&y=t&z=3&h=300&w=610&range=1y&size=Medium&url=ChampCarWorldSeries.com

Last but not least, it is important to put Autoracing1.com in perspective. The Alexa ranking for the leading motorsports news sites (plus AR!.com) are:

Site / Rank

Autosport.com: 9,004
SpeedTV.com: 19,304
Crash.net: 22,131
Motorsport.com: 33,928
Autoracing1.com: 305,974

Lies, dammed lies and statistics, eh Sanguin?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sanguin....it is AR1...a site that is dedicated to hard core racing fans, many of whom follow the politics of the sport and the machinations of the sport. The general public wouldn't pay to go on AR1. Hell, I wont pay for it and I am a hard core fan. No, let ESPN or some media site to a poll. The TV ratings world wide should tell you lots about where Champ Car sits.

This whole argument is indiciative of the delusional thinking that is involved by a few individuals. If Champ Car has so much TV quotient, so much attraction, how come there are not enough sponsors? How come there is no large company helping float large purses? How come there is only 17 cars? How come the series is buying TV time to make broadcasts on ESPN Guam ( am only slightly facetious here) and how come most of the other markets outside the US, the TV package is poor to non-existent? When you solve all of those issues, then you will maybe have a point. Until then, Champ Car is where it is because of mismanagement and a lack of marketing expertese and finances behind the marketing.

[sanguin]

This whole argument is indiciative of the delusional thinking that is involved by a few individuals. If Champ Car has so much TV quotient, so much attraction, how come there are not enough sponsors? How come there is no large company helping float large purses? How come there is only 17 cars? How come the series is buying TV time to make broadcasts on ESPN Guam ( am only slightly facetious here) and how come most of the other markets outside the US, the TV package is poor to non-existent? When you solve all of those issues, then you will maybe have a point. Until then, Champ Car is where it is because of mismanagement and a lack of marketing expertese and finances behind the marketing.

Name all the series that don't buy some tv time. Name all the series with great ratings. Name all the series with huge car counts that don't need more. Name a series that doesn't need more sponsorship.

BTW, CC has Eurosport.

[cartpix]

Name all the series that don't buy some tv time. Name all the series with great ratings. Name all the series with huge car counts that don't need more. Name a series that doesn't need more sponsorship.

BTW, CC has Eurosport.

NASCAR

Jeff

[sanguin]

NASCAR

Jeff

exactly, thanks, but aren't their rating trending down for a second year in a row?Does that validate the high price ABC/ESPN paid for tv rights? aren't their teams combining to stay afloat? their drivers switching teams? Aren't they losing sponsors and had a hard time getting a title sponsor for their secondary series? Aren't they in a lawsuit with a track owner? I know they're successful so far, my point is they experience the same problems that other series do. There are things that need to be fixed in CC, can it be done? yes.

[garyshell]

exactly, thanks, but aren't their rating trending down for a second year in a row?Does that validate the high price ABC/ESPN paid for tv rights? aren't their teams combining to stay afloat? their drivers switching teams? Aren't they losing sponsors and had a hard time getting a title sponsor for their secondary series? Aren't they in a lawsuit with a track owner? I know they're successful so far, my point is they experience the same problems that other series do. There are things that need to be fixed in CC, can it be done? yes.


Oh man, this is like shooting fish in a freakin' barrel, name a series that wouldn't LOVE to have these "problems".

Gary

[sanguin]

name a series that wouldn't LOVE to have these "problems".

Gary

every series has these problems,that's the point.

[cartpix]

exactly, thanks, but aren't their rating trending down for a second year in a row?
At least they have TV ratings

Does that validate the high price ABC/ESPN paid for tv rights?
But they GET paid for TV

aren't their teams combining to stay afloat?
At least they have teams

their drivers switching teams? Yes, but they are the SAME drivers, year in & year out. Maybe a couple come & go each year, but not many

Aren't they losing sponsors and had a hard time getting a title sponsor for their secondary series?
They have plenty of sponsors to lose. NASCAR is a pretty expensive sponsorship deal. The sponsors they are losing, are the ones that can't keep up. How come CC can't scoop up ALL these sponsors, you think are falling by the wayside, by the dozens?

I know they're successful so far, my point is they experience the same problems that other series do.
They are on the top, now. The only way they can go is down. NASCAR has a very long way to go, to get to the level that Champ Car is now. Don't try to make us believe that the 800 pound gorilla will fall, over night. We believe THAT, about as well as we believe ANYTHING you post.

There are things that need to be fixed in CC, can it be done? yes.
That really depends on whether they want to do what is needed to be done. Doing what they are doing now, won't get it done. They keep saying, wait until next year, it will be all better. I'm still waiting.

Jeff

[cartpix]

every series has these problems,that's the point.

But most series don't have as many or the kind of problems CC has. To paraphrase Gary, most series would love to have the kind of problems NASCAR has. That is, of course, that they have the successes, too.

Jeff

[ChaimWitz]

David Phillips nails it on SpeedTV.com today. D. Walker's quotes are on the money too. Both must be reading this thread. Here is the link:

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40891/?page=1

I also went back to Alexa.com and looked a little deeper at the stats available. Below is what I found about where the traffic comes from (shown as percentages).

It is very interesting on a number of levels, especially when one considers the commercial vitality of each series. F1 is an exception in that its highly ranked site attracts a diverse audience whereas most other series have a defined core audience in a single country or region.

I have only tried to show the top ten rankings for each and I was very surprised to see that France was only tied for 7th, with just 2.2% in the Champ Car chart given that Seb has is on his way to his fourth title and there are two of his countrymen in the series. It also looks like Champ Car is big in Russia and Venezuela. Maybe there should be a race in Red Square and Milka should jump ship.

I have put the series in the order of their traffic rank. I do think this information could help us in understanding what happens next.

Formula1.com users come from these countries:

1) United Kingdom: 5.6%
2) Spain: 5.5%
3) India: 5.4%
4) United States: 5.1%
5) Malaysia: 4.9%
6) Philippines: 3.7%
7) Singapore: 3.5%
8) Poland: 3.0%
9) Greece: 2.8%
10) Venezuela: 2.3%

Nascar.com users come from these countries:

1) United States: 82.6%
2) Canada: 5.4%
3) Colombia: 2.3%
4) Puerto Rico: 1.2%
5) France: 1.0%
6) Venezuela: 0.5%
7) Brazil: 0.4%; Germany: 0.4%
8) Philippines: 0.3%; Belgium: 0.3%; Norway: 0.3%; United Kingdom: 0.3%; Australia: 0.3%; Dominican Republic: 0.3%; Honduras: 0.3%
9) Mexico: 0.2%; Italy: 0.2%; Estonia: 0.2%; Austria: 0.2%; Chile: 0.2%; Hungary: 0.2%; India: 0.2%; Peru: 0.2%
10) Thailand: 0.1%; Netherlands: 0.1%

IndyCar.com users come from these countries:

1) United States: 45.2%
2) Canada: 5.0%
3) Brazil: 4.3%
4) United Kingdom: 4.0%; Colombia: 4.0%
5) Venezuela: 3.6%
6) Chile: 3.3%
7) Belgium: 3.0%
8) Singapore: 2.0%
9) Russia: 1.7%; Ukraine: 1.7%
10) New Zealand: 1.3%; Argentina: 1.3%; China: 1.3%

Champcarworldseries.com users come from these countries:

1) United States: 34.6%
2) Canada: 6.1%
3) Russia: 5.0%; Mexico: 5.0%
4) Venezuela: 4.5%
5) United Kingdom: 3.4%; Netherlands: 3.4%
6) Bulgaria: 2.8%; Croatia: 2.8%; Belgium: 2.8%
7) Colombia: 2.2%; Serbia and Montenegro: 2.2%; France: 2.2%;
8) Romania: 1.7%; Australia: 1.7%; Poland: 1.7%; Spain: 1.7%
9) Turkey: 1.1%; Brazil: 1.1%; Germany: 1.1%; Argentina: 1.1%; Lithuania: 1.1%; Qatar: 1.1%
10) Italy: 0.6%; Hungary: 0.6%

V8supercar.com.au users come from these countries:

1) Australia: 73.7%
2) New Zealand: 14.0%
3) United States: 4.7%
4) Croatia: 1.8%
5) United Kingdom: 0.7%; Japan: 0.7%; Hungary: 0.7%
6) Poland: 0.4%; Indonesia: 0.4%; Netherlands: 0.4%; Hong Kong: 0.4%; India: 0.4%; Panama: 0.4%; Philippines: 0.4%; Sweden: 0.4%; Singapore: 0.4%; Thailand: 0.4%

No other countries listed.

Americanlemans.com users come from these countries:

1) United States: 56.5%
2) Croatia: 5.9%; Venezuela: 5.9%
3) United Kingdom: 4.7%; Qatar: 4.7%
4) Netherlands: 3.5%
5) Brazil: 2.4%; Slovenia: 2.4%; France: 2.4%; Austria: 1.2%; Hungary: 1.2%; Bulgaria: 1.2%; Canada: 1.2%; Colombia 1.2%; Cyprus: 1.2%; Hong Kong: 1.2%; Mexico: 1.2%; Malaysia: 1.2%; Romania: 1.2%

No other countries listed.

A1gp.com users come from these countries:

1) Netherlands: 14.4%
2) India: 12.1%
3) United Kingdom: 11.3%
4) Czech Republic: 7.0%
5) Indonesia: 5.8%
6) Malaysia: 5.1%; New Zealand: 5.1%
7) Philippines: 4.7%; United States: 4.7%
8) Brazil: 3.5%; South Africa: 3.5%
9) Canada: 2.3%; Pakistan: 1.9%
10) Germany: 1.6%

Grand-Am.com users come from these countries:

1) United States: 73.2%
2) Qatar: 4.2%; Canada: 4.2%
3) Guatemala: 2.8%; Dominican Republic: 2.8%; United Kingdom: 2.8%
4) Croatia: 1.4%; Costa Rica: 1.4%; Bulgaria: 1.4%; Switzerland: 1.4%; France: 1.4%; Italy: 1.4%; Malaysia: 1.4%

No other countries listed.

It should be about time for you-know-who to fire his Spintron Torpedos and activate his Farce Fields. Uniphasers armed. Fire at will, Mr. Sanguin!

[beachbum]

David Phillips nails it on SpeedTV.com today. D. Walker's quotes are on the money too. Both must be reading this thread.....

...... Spintron Torpedos and activate his Farce Fields. Uniphasers armed. Fire at will, I need to get me some of those. The farce field looks particularly useful (and appropriate). The Uniphasers mostly attack the pocketbook.

When long time CC supporters like Walker and Phillips publically make such strong and pointed statements, someone should be listening, not "spinning" like he-who-will-not-be-named.

[seppefan]

[quote="ChaimWitz"]

Thanks for the data, very interesting and is also shows a genuine international ChampCar viewing.

[seppefan]

Also from ChaimWitz data provided:

Formula1.com: 1694
NASCAR.com: 3234
IndyCar.com: 52,076
ChampCarWorldSeries.com: 73,903


shows that KK etc have got an asset but they are loosing it all bt themselves....

[garyshell]

Also from ChaimWitz data provided:

Formula1.com: 1694
NASCAR.com: 3234
IndyCar.com: 52,076
ChampCarWorldSeries.com: 73,903


shows that KK etc have got an asset but they are loosing it all bt themselves....


Huh? What are THOSE numbers?

Gary

[heelntoe]

Huh? What are THOSE numbers?

Gary

I don't get it either, but Gary, don't know if you read the Phillips article and saw Derrick Walkers comments...with a stalwart like this making those kind of comments, do you think he's just angling for a formal position from the owners or is he really preparing his exit? I know Derrick fairly well and he's not made these comments in this way in the past, but I think, as most feel today, that the Amigos need to step into the spotlight and formally state their intentions...knowing KK, he's thinking he'll do it in his back yard, but don't you think something should go out now?

[patnicholls]

Huh? What are THOSE numbers?

Gary

They're traffic ranking numbers of all the websites in the world. So the most visited website in the world (think it's google.com) is ranked 1, then other popular stuff like eBay, Facebook, MySpace, Yahoo, etc are all up there in the top 10.

So Formula1.com is the 1694th most visited website in the world, etc...

[ChaimWitz]

To help understand “what happen next” I thought it would helpful to provide even more third party perspective on the relative interest in the various forms of motorsports listed in the Autoracing1.com popularity poll.

After reading my post with the Alexa.com global site traffic rankings, a friend suggested a newer alternative: Quantcast.com, because this service provides insight into the USA traffic rankings along with estimates of the monthly unique users. These results can be “Quantified” by the individual site publishers submitting additional data such as Global traffic (only Champ car and ALMS have done this). Regardless, It is very interesting stuff:

Quantcast.com motorsports website US traffic rankings:

1) NASCAR.com
US Rank: 549
US Monthly Uniques: 2,800,000

2) IndyCar.com
US Rank: 17,392
US Monthly Uniques: 112,775

3) Formula1.com
US Rank: 23,893
US Monthly Uniques: 78,358

4) ChampCarWorldSeries.com (Quantified)
US Rank: 35,805
US Monthly Uniques: 49,684 (+50,985 Global Uniques = 100,639)

5) AmericanLeMans.com (Quantified)
US Rank: 39,417
US Monthly Uniques: 44,460 (+16,538 Global Uniques = 60,338)

6) Grand-Am.com
US Rank: 144,834
Monthly Uniques: 9484

7) V8Supercar.com.au
US Rank: 636,959
Monthly Uniques: < 2000 (1585)

8) A1GP.com
US Rank: 7,816,328
Monthly Uniques: < 2000 (376)

A number of things jump out at me:

* NASCAR is 2800 laps ahead. Only a mistake or a crash by the Frances can save American Open Wheel Racing from itself.

* IndyCar.com’s US traffic is twice that of Champ Car’s. No wonder it is hard for the Amigos to sell much meaningful US based sponsorship or attract media interest while the Indy Car Series still has a fair amount of both.

* Formula1.com has more traffic in the US than ChampCar's site and Formula1.com dwarfs ChampCarWorldSeries.com's tiny global traffic numbers. This is not encouraging for a series now claiming to be a 'world series" based in the USA.

* AmericanLeMans.com is nipping at the heels of ChampCarWorldSeries.com. How much longer before the ALMS’s web traffic passes CCWS's? BTW, the same thing is happening on TV in the USA.

* Very few people in the USA care about the NASCAR-style road racing represented by the Grand-Am.

* Virtually no one in the USA cares about A1GP or V8 Supercars.

Using the above information as predictor of “what happens next” leads me to the conclusion that Champ Car is now surrounded and marginalized by competitors on all sides. It has very little hope of escaping this fatal circumstance given its lack of a compelling brand identity and managment horespower.

Champ Car now looks decidedly third rate in the harsh light the digital age. There is simply no place left to hide. Uniphasers, Farce Shields and Spintron Torpedoes are useless against people who can see the objective truth... And the truth must be devastating to the Amigos during this year of renewal of the contract for “The Indy” at Surfers Paradise. One must now wonder what real commercial value the organizers think is left in Champ Car given the all the issues that the series has had since the last contract renewal.

One glance at the web traffic rankings from Alexa and Quantcast suggests that ChampCar brings precious little fan base with it wherever it goes – especially Australia. A1GP, GP2, Formula Nippon or the real “Indy” Car Series would probably do just as well there or better as a companion to V8 Supercars.

If Surfers goes… the question is again “what happens next?” If it doesn’t go, any reasonable person must then wonder about the terms of the deal.

The next few weeks should be interesting.

[sanguin]

that's funny stuff. 300k at Surfer's and none of them are CC fans? right.

That's why CC has Aussie teams. Attendance at CC events is up this year 16%.

[OWFan19]

that's funny stuff. 300k at Surfer's and none of them are CC fans? right.

That's why CC has Aussie teams. Attendance at CC events is up this year 16%.


The numbers given were U.S. based Sanquin. Why cant you look at all the facts, including the ones that are not in your favor?

If you are so impressed by the one race in Aus, maybe Champ Car can actually develope a business plan, and become an Aus based racing series. Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, those are 3 more markets that you havent screwed up yet.

[Andrewmcm]

No-one said people at Sufer's don't enjoy CC - I'm willing to suggest that whilst quite a lot of people go to only watch CC, the majority will go to watch the V8s/have fun/get drunk/ogle women.

The Brands race in 2003 was tagged on with the BTCC - ask around on these forums what the BTCC regular crowd thought of that race when they went along to watch the tin-tops. I was there and it was rather dull, mainly due to the Brands Indy Course being far too short.

The point of course is that going to a country where CCWS/AN-Other series is not widely known will always involve what some might see as domestic "support races", when in reality these support races are really top of the bill for the natives. It's persuading these natives to watch on TV or return in future years to watch the non-domestic series that is the trick.....

[sanguin]

The numbers given were U.S. based Sanquin. Why cant you look at all the facts, including the ones that are not in your favor?

If you are so impressed by the one race in Aus, maybe Champ Car can actually develope a business plan, and become an Aus based racing series. Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, those are 3 more markets that you havent screwed up yet.

I don't think CC has "screwed" up any markets. They have good venues at LB, Houston, Cleveland,RA and LS.I hope they keep LV. Canada has 3 events and the Euro tour went very well. There is no need for them to stay in one country or leave the US.IMO.

[OWFan19]

I don't think CC has "screwed" up any markets. They have good venues at LB, Houston, Cleveland,RA and LS.I hope they keep LV. Canada has 3 events and the Euro tour went very well. There is no need for them to stay in one country or leave the US.IMO.

:laugh:

Your too funny. Denver, they lost a sponsor and couldnt get another. Phoenix, no sponsors. San Jose gone too. Almost lost Mexico, on a thread at the moment. Laguna, they barely got 20,000 fans to show up 3 years ago.

The reason why Champ Car continues to get negative Press is because you guys continue to deny any problems.

[sanguin]

:laugh:

Your too funny. Denver, they lost a sponsor and couldnt get another. Phoenix, no sponsors. San Jose gone too. Almost lost Mexico, on a thread at the moment. Laguna, they barely got 20,000 fans to show up 3 years ago.


CC isn't the only OW series to have problems in Phoenix. Denver's promoter got into trouble and the sponsor went BK. That had nothing to do with the GP. The Democratic convention made it impossible to hold the race for 2007 and 2008. San Jose killed their own GP,we replaced it with LS,it may be much more successful than 3 years ago and better than Sonoma. Mexico was never almost lost. Link please.

[ChaimWitz]

I did a little more online research at dictionary.com about the three words that keep coming to mind when I read certain posts in this thread and the positions they convey:

de·lu·sion
(dĭ-lōō'zhən)
- noun
1. a. The act or process of deluding.
b. The state of being deluded.
2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

[Middle English delusioun, from Latin dēlūsiō, dēlūsiōn-, from dēlūsus, past participle of dēlūdere, to delude; see delude.]
de·lu'sion·al -adj.
(From the American Heritage Dictionary)

de·cep·tive
(di-'sep-tiv)
Function: adjective: tending or having capacity to deceive <deceptive trade practices> —compare FRAUDULENT, MISLEADING
(from Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law)

fa·nat·ic
(fuh-nat-ik)
–noun
1. a person with an extreme and uncritical enthusiasm or zeal, as in religion or politics.
–adjective
2. fanatical.
[Origin: 1515–25; < L fānāticus pertaining to a temple, inspired by orgiastic rites, frantic, equiv. to fān(um) temple + -āticus, equiv. to -āt(us) -ate1 + -icus -ic]

—Synonyms 1. enthusiast, zealot, bigot, hothead, militant. Fanatic, zealot, militant, devotee refer to persons showing more than ordinary support for, adherence to, or interest in a cause, point of view, or activity. Fanatic and zealot both suggest excessive or overweening devotion to a cause or belief. Fanatic further implies unbalanced or obsessive behavior: a wild-eyed fanatic. Zealot, only slightly less unfavorable in implication than fanatic, implies single-minded partisanship: a tireless zealot for tax reform. Militant stresses vigorous, aggressive support for or opposition to a plan or ideal and suggests a combative stance. Devotee is a milder term than any of the foregoing, suggesting enthusiasm but not to the exclusion of other interests or possible points of view: a jazz devotee.

Is it just me, or is the position of Champ Car now only supported or defended by those who fit all or some of the above definitions? I keep hoping the answer is "no" but after reading some of the foregoing posts and contrasting those with the astute writings of David Phillips this week and the objective posts of others on this forum, I think I have the sad answer.

Can somebody please prove me wrong and make a rational case for Champ Car's long term survival and prosperity?

[heelntoe]

CC isn't the only OW series to have problems in Phoenix. Denver's promoter got into trouble and the sponsor went BK. That had nothing to do with the GP. The Democratic convention made it impossible to hold the race for 2007 and 2008. San Jose killed their own GP,we replaced it with LS,it may be much more successful than 3 years ago and better than Sonoma. Mexico was never almost lost. Link please.

Just one more completely incorrect post and absurd spin. The convention had ZERO to do with the cancellation of Denver, San Jose was much CCWS's fault as the promoter in KK's backyard, and Mexico was MOST DEFINITELY near gone as it would not have happened without the 11th hour driver switcheroo. And why don't we now also add Miami (can't to hear how you spin that one!) and Fontana to the screwed-up race list.

[sanguin]

Just one more completely incorrect post and absurd spin. The convention had ZERO to do with the cancellation of Denver, San Jose was much CCWS's fault as the promoter in KK's backyard, and Mexico was MOST DEFINITELY near gone as it would not have happened without the 11th hour driver switcheroo.

In your opinion.

wrong again, here's the real story-


Pepsi Center officials, however, informed Champ Car that the 2008 date needed to be changed because of the Democratic National Convention. Champ Car said there would be no Denver race in 2008.
"We were in the process of identifying existing Champ Car promoters to step in and run the event or work with someone else," Champ Car spokesman Eric Mauk wrote in an e-mail. "With the 2008 date unquestionably being taken away from us by the convention, it was proving difficult for someone to be enthusiastic to come in and do the race for one year.

http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_5139799

The Mexico City race always had a contract and was never in trouble of being cancelled. The drivers were substituted to help the promoter and that is what he asked for. The promoter also said the race had a contract and makes a profit. This was posted by net-ranger on another forum. The promoter also said he is ready to continue this event with CC.

Unles you can come up with something more solid ,this is credible. IMO.

[heelntoe]

In your opinion.

wrong again, here's the real story-



http://www.denverpost.com/headlines/ci_5139799

The Mexico City race always had a contract and was never in trouble of being cancelled. The drivers were substituted to help the promoter and that is what he asked for. The promoter also said the race had a contract and makes a profit. This was posted by net-ranger on another forum. The promoter also said he is ready to continue this event with CC.

Unles you can come up with something more solid ,this is credible. IMO.

Oh well, you got me there! Only one problem...CCWS had every intention of running Denver for '07 but messed it up...there were also plans for an alternate site which dated back to '04 in the event there were convention problems (I was in those meetings!). As for Eric's comments, it was pr spin 100%...I have been in many many meetings with Eric, which you really should catch on by about now...I was there for a lot of the time these deals were formed or put down. Mexico was a contractual obligation and to say it's profitable is disingenouos as attendance has fallen steadily.

And nowehere do you respond to screw-ups of Miami and Fontana...so?

[sanguin]

So Eric and CC and the promoter of the Mexico City race are all lying .When it comes to anonymous sources on these forums ,I always ask who would I believe? What is said by credible links/persons now? Or a disgruntled ex-employee from 5 years ago that has an ax to grind?

[heelntoe]

So Eric and CC and the promoter of the Mexico City race are all lying .When it comes to anonymous sources on these forums ,I always ask who would I believe? What is said by credible links/persons now? Or a disgruntled ex-employee from 5 years ago that has an ax to grind?

As i have stated more times than i care to remember, I was NEVER an employee of CCWS and as I have established my credibility over a period of years as opposed to a less than two month internet "fan" poster who keeps changing his identity and can't accept the truth, I really don't care what you believe...I care about what credible posters with objective opinions or agenda opinions believe...as long as they can debate intelligently. Go back to pr 101 class if you actually believe what Eric and the CCWS PR machine has been throwing out there over the past 18 months.

And back to my question which you don't want to answer, what about Miami and Fontana?

[beachbum]

Can somebody please prove me wrong and make a rational case for Champ Car's long term survival and prosperity?It won't come from the pompom wavers. They drank the koolaid and think the CC world is wonderful. Don't worry, be happy. They don't have to make a case for the future because they just know it's going to be great, just because they say so. CC is on a wave upward! No facts, no answers to questions asked, no interest in a civil dialog, not even acknowledgment of anyone who doesn't agree with their delusion. Just the same silly cheerleading and forum bombardment over and over and over and over and over and .........

Eventually they will learn a basic fact of life. Just wanting something to happen and making positive claims doesn't create a reality. It is just dreaming. Making dreams real takes a lot more. Results occur when people analyze the facts objectively, ask the hard questions, weight the pro's and con's, make accurate forecasts, get the right resources in place and ACT.

While the dreamers are quite literally flooding this forum with overly optimistic fantasy, the real CC just appears to be sitting. No response from anyone from CC about the recent articles and statements from the CC stalwarts like Walker and Wiggins, no announcements of future plans, no nothing. Why would anyone with a brain think this is a positive sign? Anyone who has ever had the misfortune to work for a failing company in its death throes can see the warning signs. When the bosses stop communicating, and the only future is the day after today because all of the effort is putting out today's bonfire, there is no long term future.

Unless something drastically changes, the question is not if, but when the end will come. What a sad legacy.

[jimispeed]

It won't come from the pompom wavers. They drank the koolaid and think the CC world is wonderful. Don't worry, be happy.


Not the same koolaid!! I don't believe that Champcar is trying to fool all of us, (aside from all of the IRL fans who refuse to leave this forum) that the series doesn't have any isuues that need to be dealt with. However, I do think that if Champcar doesn't change the way in which they promote the series, and totally revamp the organization of advertising and funding into a department that is heavily focused on promoting for the life of the series (much like the NFL does) then the series certainly isn't going to advance into anything but what it is now!!!!

We all know the potential of this series, and that is exactly why I am a loyal follower of Champcar. I have seen their distant past, and hopefully will see the distant future. Champcar is exciting!

KK, put your money where your mouth is, and you will see the series reach out to where it belongs!

[Hoss Ghoul]

Been reading this thread since the beginning, very entertaining, and a lot of good info/thoughts...

This Sanguin character though...wow...he's brought people I've read for years, and know to be CC die hards, against him and his ridiculous assertions.

My .02cents for "what happens next": ChampCar folds this offseason or hangs on another year as a viable entity in the United States. After that they have to go international to survive, and with mostly U.S. based teams, this seems a stretch.

In my opinion the IRL's movement towards road and street course racing was the death nail for CC in the U.S. Regardless of CC's horrible mismanagement, ride buyers, oval abandonment, etc. This single factor, combined with the defections doomed them to the margins of the U.S. racing scene. They've lost touch with their history, they've lost their uniqueness, so...what do they have?

When you combine the Indy 500, the "names", and a true commitement to the U.S. market, how can CC hope to actually beat IndyCar's in the states? It just doesn't make sense.

Ideally, CC's death will see a return to even more historic road racing venues for AOWR. We won't see 1990's greatness again, but we can see something far better than the current mediocre state, with everyone fleeing to NASCAR, weak spec cars, and pathetic infighting.

[ChaimWitz]

I now smell burning Champ Car toast in Las Vegas (not surprising) and at one of the Canadian venues (surprising). I am hearing that the Amigo's toaster may be on fire in China (not surprising) and in Europe as well (surprising). If the latter is true, what happens next? Where does Champ Car go to find the sanction fees to stay alive?

Then there is the A1GP + Ferrari announcement. That development must complicate things for the Amigos and their faltering international strategy.

I also hear that RuSport is not the only team on the edge of oblivion. I think we should all get ready for some more bad news. For those who want links, we will all no doubt get them soon enough.

The fact that the final two races of the year are actually going to take place as scheduled can't be the only good news. In most professional series, that is a given. Where is the new series sponsor or the new teams or all the new venues for 2008? We should know soon if all these positive rumors where only phantoms at the end of a horrible nightmare or if they are indeed real, ensuring Champ Car's salvation (again). Sadly, the only Champ Car rumors that seem to come true these days are the negative ones.

I ask again: Can someone please make a rational case for Champ Car's long term survival and prosperity?

[heelntoe]

I now smell burning Champ Car toast in Las Vegas (not surprising) and at one of the Canadian venues (surprising). I am hearing that the Amigo's toaster may be on fire in China (not surprising) and in Europe as well (surprising). If the latter is true, what happens next? Where does Champ Car go to find the sanction fees to stay alive?

Then there is the A1GP + Ferrari announcement. That development must complicate things for the Amigos and their faltering international strategy.

I also hear that RuSport is not the only team on the edge of oblivion. I think we should all get ready for some more bad news. For those who want links, we will all no doubt get them soon enough.

The fact that the final two races of the year are actually going to take place as scheduled can't be the only good news. In most professional series, that is a given. Where is the new series sponsor or the new teams or all the new venues for 2008? We should know soon if all these positive rumors where only phantoms at the end of a horrible nightmare or if they are indeed real, ensuring Champ Car's salvation (again). Sadly, the only Champ Car rumors that seem to come true these days are the negative ones.

I ask again: Can someone please make a rational case for Champ Car's long term survival and prosperity?

Been also following this stuff and while some are rumors, these days, bad rumors seem to play out. look to Rocketsports to say bye-bye. I wrote this morning that I thought the Ferrari announcement was a really bad bit of news for the Amigos...notwithstanding Bernie, who has no fond thoughts of KK, David Clare is no doubt gloating at A1 and is likely looking at other venues and schedules as we write...I told our new comedian Sanguin that the next 60 days will prove out a lot of this stuff...today, I think it may be sooner (though I'm sticking to my original prediction :) )

[jimispeed]

WOW!!!

You guys are all soo important, I don't know who I should believe!!! :rolleyes:

[ChaimWitz]

Jimspeed, I think you should probably stick with Sanguin. He seems to be serving what you are drinking. As for being "important" LOL! I sincerely doubt that anyone on these boards would qualify in that category. Anyone with any get up and go, already got up and went somewhere else. We are the sum total of the handful of people left who still care about this once great series. I posted what I did because I think it is likely true. You are free to think otherwise but we will all find out soon enough won't we?

[garyshell]

Jimspeed, I think you should probably stick with Sanguin. He seems to be serving what you are drinking. As for being "important" LOL! I sincerely doubt that anyone on these boards would qualify in that category. Anyone with any get up and go, already got up and went somewhere else. We are the sum total of the handful of people left who still care about this once great series. I posted what I did because I think it is likely true. You are free to think otherwise but we will all find out soon enough won't we?


Lets get a few things straight. Jimispeed has hardly been one of the kool aide drinkers here. And yes a lot of folks have left, many because of self sanctimonious comments like: "We are the sum total of the handful of people left who still care about this once great series." Since when do the few self proclaimed "insiders" here have some sort of monopoly on caring about Champ Car?

Gary

[indycool]

jimispeed, you seem to be of the opinion that things will be better for CC if the owners throw money at it for marketing and promotion, etc. This isn't Kansas, Toto, and the man behind the curtain is more deeply hidden than that.

Some of this is IMO, but....

1. The Amigos got it for a song in bankruptcy court, $3.1 million, and figured they stole it and looked like White Knights to the CW crowd.

2. Somehow, Pook blowing through $100 million ($ONE HUNDRED MILLION) just to stay on the race track and TV in 2003 escaped them that this was going to be an easy thing to do with what KK called the "best five-year plan he ever had."

3. They have ALREADY thrown plenty of money at it. I wouldn't even guess a figure. But I would certainly think it's much more than they anticipated spending, just to stay on TV and keep cars on the race track and even find race tracks to run on.

To start with, it's the basics that are missing. For ONE example, most series have a 2008 schedule. With that, their teams can go to sponsors and say "here's where we're racing when and we're also going to be on 'X' network on TV for all of 'em." With that, sponsors can decide to start with whether to say yes or not and if they say yes, can start planning promotion on those weekends in those places if it fits their marketing plan. If a sponsor says yes, that gives the team a budget to hire a driver and plan to race.

Walker was quoted in Phillips' SPEEDTV.com story as saying the teams had the "mission statement" of "Festivals of Speed" and don't know what the mission statement is now. That's true. Is it national or international? Is it NAFTA or global? That tells a team what kind of sponsor might be a good fit.

Because there's no schedule for '08 (and IMO, nowhere near one), all the business that could be conducted by the rest of the industry is on hold. And with CC's credibility of announcing schedules and cancelling races, that creates another set of problems.

That's all BEFORE you throw money at marketing and promotion.

[Skid Marx]

Tut, tut, come now Gary, Jimi, don't you understand? Peons like you and I are just too stupid to hold a candle to the mighty, all-knowing, all-seeing "insiders." Only they know what the facts are, and who the others with real insight are, and we must believe them for no other reason than they say so! After all, they have "established ... credibility over a period of years"
according to their own pronouncements! Simply stating enough times that you are an insider and know more than everyone else, albeit without providing any hard, verifiable evidence, is apparently enough of a bona fide on these boards. No wonder I read these boards less and less these days, SSDD...

[ChaimWitz]

Lets get a few things straight. Jimispeed has hardly been one of the kool aide drinkers here. And yes a lot of folks have left, many because of self sanctimonious comments like: "We are the sum total of the handful of people left who still care about this once great series." Since when do the few self proclaimed "insiders" here have some sort of monopoly on caring about Champ Car?

Gary

garyshell, point taken about jimspeed. My apologies to both of you.

Call me sanctimonious but plase don't call me Sanguin.

I think the real reason so many folks have left has as much to do with the sorry state of Champ Car as anything else. This thread is the closest thing to a pulse I have seen in quite awhile on these forums.

The truth is that I do work in the racing business and have done so for most of my life, so sorry if that offends. I also don't think I am special because of that fact, but I do think I have a pretty decent line on what is really going on, sans spin. I also have worked with or at least know most of the people in Champ Car being discussed in this thread. Again, that is my reality. If you don't believe me, okay, life goes on for both of us! That doesn't change the fact (for me at least) that I do know what I know (and I also know what I don't know).

What I post has never been me trying to pass off something that is fact without me being sure of it. When I don't know, I write that it is something I have heard, and most of what I do hear is from credible sources that are connected to what is going on in the sport. I don't post anything close to the whole story because it is not appropriate to do so but rest assured, more bad news is on the way for our favorite series. I know it sucks, but please don't shoot the messenger.

I also think it would be insane to disclose my identity since I make my living in this business. Which brings me to why I do post here. I have simply had enough of the deceptive, delusional, fanatical spin used to keep this charade going.

Champ Car long ago ceased to be a business (actually, the last time it was, it was called CART) and it is now time to face the fact it will never be. So ignore me or hate me but know that I truly believe that this farce just needs to end and the whole sport needs to move on to being a business again. A hopin' and a wishin' isn't what real racers or business people do. They deal in reality and make the best of it.

The next month to six weeks will probably deliver the truth... the question I have is, will The Amigos (or you) accept it?

[OWFan19]

garyshell, point taken about jimspeed. My apologies to both of you.

Call me sanctimonious but plase don't call me Sanguin.

I think the real reason so many folks have left has as much to do with the sorry state of Champ Car as anything else. This thread is the closest thing to a pulse I have seen in quite awhile on these forums.

The truth is that I do work in the racing business and have done so for most of my life, so sorry if that offends. I also don't think I am special because of that fact, but I do think I have a pretty decent line on what is really going on, sans spin. I also have worked with or at least know most of the people in Champ Car being discussed in this thread. Again, that is my reality. If you don't believe me, okay, life goes on for both of us! That doesn't change the fact (for me at least) that I do know what I know (and I also know what I don't know).

What I post has never been me trying to pass off something that is fact without me being sure of it. When I don't know, I write that it is something I have heard, and most of what I do hear is from credible sources that are connected to what is going on in the sport. I don't post anything close to the whole story because it is not appropriate to do so but rest assured, more bad news is on the way for our favorite series. I know it sucks, but please don't shoot the messenger.

I also think it would be insane to disclose my identity since I make my living in this business. Which brings me to why I do post here. I have simply had enough of the deceptive, delusional, fanatical spin used to keep this charade going.

Champ Car long ago ceased to be a business (actually, the last time it was, it was called CART) and it is now time to face the fact it will never be. So ignore me or hate me but know that I truly believe that this farce just needs to end and the whole sport needs to move on to being a business again. A hopin' and a wishin' isn't what real racers or business people do. They deal in reality and make the best of it.

The next month to six weeks will probably deliver the truth... the question I have is, will The Amigos (or you) accept it?

I understand where you are coming from. I have busted my ass to make a name for myself in Champ Car and IRL, the last thing I need is some jaded poster contacting someone and coming up with some B.S. that could cost me a contract or opportuniy. I made that mistake once before, and I was beyonf ***** off about it. So never again will I give up my identity unless I choose to in private.

[ChaimWitz]

The constant Champ Car spin doctoring in the face of harsh reality reminds me of two wonderful comedy bits by Monty Python:

The Black Knight Fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxL11RIEb5Q

The Parrot Sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTSAFcLXqYY

I can imagine The Kevster as The Black Knight and a certain poster here as the pet shop owner.

[seppefan]

The next month to six weeks will probably deliver the truth... the question I have is, will The Amigos (or you) accept it?

Interesting time frame, any reason ?

[beachbum]

Interesting time frame, any reason ?The season is over in 4 weeks.

[heelntoe]

All "skidding" aside :) , those of us who have been on the inside and are no longer, like myself, really wanted to believe that the Amigos would live up to their expectations and sadly, that doesn't always happen in any business. From my perspective, PG is responsible for a lot on my own anger/frustration as he lead a lot of KK's initial thought process towards the elusive 5 year plan and couldn't have been more wrong. He also bullied, intimidated and just plain misrepresented so many things...and this was the end for me. As I read the boards now, which is my only real connection other than random conversations with old friends/drivers, I feel partly the solace of "what goes around, comes around", but when I think of all the hard working team crew members and those still stuck to a grain of hope, I feel bad that I can simply walk away from the computer and move on. For the benefit of the hard working souls out there still believing in KK/GF and even PG, I would hope that they can at least be honest with these peolpe when it's finally determined that the plug has to be pulled.

[Chris R]

I cannot help but notice some "outside" factors that must be contributing to the problems of Champcar.

1. The Ferrari deal for A1-GP - all of the sudden it appears as though this series has a future that looks a lot like the future they are talking bout for Champcar.....

2. Drivers to NASCAR - this has been talked about alot and it should be - the exodous of open wheelers to NASCAR is epedemic and it is undermining what little cedibility the sport of AOWR has left.....

Take those two factors (among many others) and throw in the complete failure of Champcar to do much of anything right this year and I think what is next is - well nothing....

I would also like to add that if KK and GF want to salvage any of thier investment this is a good time to sell off their good races. Another season of one debacle after another from Champcar is only going to erode the value of events such as Long Beach, Toronto, Cleveland, and Surfers.....

[sanguin]

Lets get a few things straight. Jimispeed has hardly been one of the kool aide drinkers here. And yes a lot of folks have left, many because of self sanctimonious comments like: "We are the sum total of the handful of people left who still care about this once great series." Since when do the few self proclaimed "insiders" here have some sort of monopoly on caring about Champ Car?

Gary

That's what I hear from CC fans about this forum.

[sanguin]

I would also like to add that if KK and GF want to salvage any of thier investment this is a good time to sell off their good races.

They have more assets than just good races. The schedule can be fixed, let other series try to be successful on their own.

[ChaimWitz]

This is what is up on Autoracing1.com today under the news item about The Queensland government’s positive relationship with IMG in the face of negative rumors:

“[Editor's Note: It's interesting that the press release never made mention of Champ Car, just that the event would continue. Hmmm......given all the rumors of Champ Car's collapse one would have thought they would have gone out of their way to mention Champ Car at least once. The event is called the 'Indy' 300 so we suppose they could easily bring in the IRL IndyCar series and continue like nothing happened.]”

This appeared yesterday and supports what I am hearing from someone I know who is close to the situation:

“Champ Car to lose key sponsor UPDATE #6 We continue to hear that with CDW gone after this year, the RuSPORT Champ Car team will also fold unless a replacement sponsor can be found fast.”

Beyond those issues and based upon what I am hearing, my guess is that “what happens next” will involve news about the following:

1) China not happening
2) Vegas not happening
3) Another team going away
4) Another 2007 event (or two) not happening in 2008 due to financial concerns

I don’t make this stuff up and it all comes from credible sources. It also does not make me happy but I have come to accept that the only real news I can expect these days about Champ Car in 2008 will probably be bad news.

[sanguin]

I'll wait for the schedule and the 60 days. ;)

[heelntoe]

I'll wait for the schedule and the 60 days. ;)

Sounds like it might not take 60 days after all

[indycool]

"The schedule can be fixed?"

How? With what? It's gone the wrong direction from Day #1.

[Chris R]

I am a long time fan who has given OWRS the benefit of the doubt from Day 1. I thought they could do it, I beleived they could do it. Perhaps, most importantly, I thought they were the better choice for AOWR to move forward.

They have lost all credibility with me. Since I started out pretty much as close to a diehard fans as you get without it affecting my social acceptability to the general populace, I would argue that when they lose credibility with people like me - all hope is lost....

My point is, what can they fix? Who is left to support them? They have lost all credibility in terms of scheduling. They have lost sponsor credibility. They have lost drivers.

as a small business owner (way smaller than can do anything to support Champcar) I have to ask the question - "Would I enter into a business agreement with these guys?" The answer is an emphatic "NO!" I could not afford to tie myself to something that is perpetually not working right nad I could not afford to tie my livlihood an the livlihood of my employees to it.

That being said - I see no practical way they can fix the schedule short of shelling out hundreds of millions of their own dollars to make things right.... If these guys are really decent businessmen - they would not do that.

[sanguin]

The events this year were well attended and the remaining 2 will be also.Over 300k at Surfers. There are solid venues and events already secured. I'm optimistic about LS now and LB should be as successful as always. These forums are a small fraction of the paying fan base.

[ChaimWitz]

I'll wait for the schedule and the 60 days. ;)

Me too mate! I can't wait to read how you spin it when it comes out. From what I am hearing it will require the world's greatest illusionists to make Champ Car look legit in the face what races are left when your cherished 2008 mini schedule is announced.

But, as you well know, there may still be some Eurosucker out there who doesn't read the motorsports news so you gotta keep the Farce Shields up in the hope this poor soul will fall for the blustering egobable that passes as Champ Car's five year plan.

The Champ Car G5 Airfarce is also a nice tool in sucking in the unsuspecting so I imagine that is what you and your pals are up to as we speak. Airfarce 1 is probably spooling up as we speak for one last desperate flight around the globe in search of the elusive promoter willing to lose millions (name your currency) just to keep the Amigos in the game and FerrariF1's and Sanguin's arguments alive.

My guess is that someone with a big ego and a lot of money (who doesn't speak English) is the next "mark" in the ever-shifting con game that the CCWS has become.

How did it all come to this? Why is there anyone still left who still believes in the unbelievable? The answer, my friends, exists somewhere between a place in our hearts called hope and a place called fear. I would put my money on the latter.

Perhaps the following will help those who are still in denial:

In her 1969 book, On Death and Dying, Swiss-born psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler-Ross outlined the five stages of grief of someone who is dying:

1) Denial and isolation: "This is not happening to me."

2) Anger: "How dare God do this to me."

3) Bargaining: "Just let me live to see my son graduate."

4) Depression: "I can't bear to face going through this, putting my family through this."

5) Acceptance: "I'm ready, I don't want to struggle anymore.

So, which stage are you at when it comes to Champ Car? I have progressed to stage 5 after experiencing the full agony of the prior four stages. My guess is that some we know and love will forever be stuck at stage 1.

[fan-veteran]

I think (don't be angry at me) that the best desision is to sell it to TG. For the good of AOWR and i ngeneral. In that way we will have a 18-20 event IRL with probably at least 26 drivers (and all the main events in Toronto, RA, LS...) Who likes ovals - will watch ovals, who dislikes them - just don't care so much watching them (but EVERYBODY will watch Indy500). That is quite enough, at least for me, i don't care that TG is the boss. What matters that TG will be the boss? He IS the boss of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway (and IRL) (or i'm wrong?).

A current Dallaras are a little bit ugly - so what? They can be redesigned in a .... let's say not exactly a month, but in less than a year.

Of course CCWS may go on, but they will not be a pinnacle of racing in NA (together with IRL).

[jimispeed]

Me too mate! I can't wait to read how you spin it when it comes out. From what I am hearing it will require the world's greatest illusionists to make Champ Car look legit in the face what races are left when your cherished 2008 mini schedule is announced.

But, as you well know, there may still be some Eurosucker out there who doesn't read the motorsports news so you gotta keep the Farce Shields up in the hope this poor soul will fall for the blustering egobable that passes as Champ Car's five year plan.

The Champ Car G5 Airfarce is also a nice tool in sucking in the unsuspecting so I imagine that is what you and your pals are up to as we speak. Airfarce 1 is probably spooling up as we speak for one last desperate flight around the globe in search of the elusive promoter willing to lose millions (name your currency) just to keep the Amigos in the game and FerrariF1's and Sanguin's arguments alive.

My guess is that someone with a big ego and a lot of money (who doesn't speak English) is the next "mark" in the ever-shifting con game that the CCWS has become.

How did it all come to this? Why is there anyone still left who still believes in the unbelievable? The answer, my friends, exists somewhere between a place in our hearts called hope and a place called fear. I would put my money on the latter.

Perhaps the following will help those who are still in denial:

In her 1969 book, On Death and Dying, Swiss-born psychiatrist Elizabeth Kubler-Ross outlined the five stages of grief of someone who is dying:

1) Denial and isolation: "This is not happening to me."

2) Anger: "How dare God do this to me."

3) Bargaining: "Just let me live to see my son graduate."

4) Depression: "I can't bear to face going through this, putting my family through this."

5) Acceptance: "I'm ready, I don't want to struggle anymore.

So, which stage are you at when it comes to Champ Car? I have progressed to stage 5 after experiencing the full agony of the prior four stages. My guess is that some we know and love will forever be stuck at stage 1.


From looking at your previous posts, it's hard to find anything positive you have ever said about the Champcar World Series..... I'm dissapointed about how Champcar played out this year, but in the same breath, there were many great moments, very competitive racing and some beautiful new road courses!!


Put away the voodoo doll!!


Champcar is going to go wherever they go no matter how we try to color it!! Changes must be made!!!

[garyshell]

garyshell, point taken about jimspeed. My apologies to both of you.

Call me sanctimonious but plase don't call me Sanguin.


Trust me I would NEVER do that. :D

Look, my reply was NOT intended to be directed at you. It was to state that there have been a lot of FANS driven away here because the self claimed insiders have pretty much told them to "sit down, shut up and listen to me because I am an insider". And then they refuse to backup the insider assertion. I understand that they are reluctant to make their names or true status known. But they also need to understand that on the internet, no one can be trusted to be who they say they are, and that playing that "insider" card doesn't REALLY lend any more credibility. If anything it REMOVES some.

I've thought of packing it here myself. But where would I go the "cff fanatics" forum. No thanks. And, I admit it, I like hearing this talk from the "insiders" and providing the occasional tweak to them to remind them they put their pants on one leg at a time just like the rest of us!

But what REALLY set me off was this: "We are the sum total of the handful of people left who still care about this once great series." As if some clique of folks here were the ONLY ones who gave a damn and the rest of us were just interlopers.

Rereading that comment in context and subsequent postings from you, I am inclined to think that your intent with it and my perception were not the same thing.

gary

[garyshell]

That's what I hear from CC fans about this forum.


Whoa! Don't drag ME into your fantasy world. I totally disassociate any comments I have made with, in any way shape or form, contributing to furthering the "opinions" you spew here.

Gary

[sanguin]

Whoa! Don't drag ME into your fantasy world. I totally disassociate any comments I have made with, in any way shape or form, contributing to furthering the "opinions" you spew here.

Gary

I don't agree with everything you post either, but about this subject, I've heard the same from other CC fans.

[ChaimWitz]

Below is some insight into the developing situation in Australia and Kalkhoven's focus on Europe:

from goldcoast.com.au

V8s lining up for more Indy cash

13 Oct 07

"V8 Supercars want a greater slice of the Indy financial pie as behind-the-scenes drama dominates talk on the eve of the major Surfers Paradise motorsport event."

V8s boss Tony Cochrane is in talks with the State Government to finalise next year's contract, and The Bulletin understands he is seeking a greater slice of the $12 million the Government pours into the event each year.

There has also been speculation over the International Management Group's continuing role with Indy, after The Bulletin was told the group and State Government were at loggerheads over a number of issues, including IMG's profit take from the event.

Late yesterday, Lexmark Indy 300 chairman Terry Mackenroth released a statement saying that letters of intent had been drafted between IMG and the Queensland Government for a joint partnership through to 2013.

"A deal has been done," he said. "I cannot understand where all the current rumour and speculation has been circulated from and take offence to such accusations of instability in regards to Australia's No 1 motorsport spectacular.

"Our current agreement will take us through to the 2008 event and we expect to cement a formal arrangement between the Queensland Government and our event partners IMG to take us through another five-year contractual period up to and inclusive of the 2013 event."

It is understood the Champ Car sanction fee and transport costs for Surfers Paradise are close to $6 million, while the V8s get a third of that in fees and TV rights.

The high-stakes game is being played out between the Indy board and V8 board, of which Mr Cochrane is chairman.

Mr Cochrane recently stitched up a lucrative deal with the Queensland Government to run a V8 race in Townsville.

He is arguing that the V8s should be given equal financial billing with the Champ Cars, saying he had independent research showing more people came to Surfers Paradise for the V8s than the Champ Cars.

The argy bargy over next year's Queensland Government deal with the V8s coincides with a massive planned revamp of the Indy series.

For the first time, Champ Car chairman Kevin Kalkhoven will not be at Surfers Paradise for next weekend's race, instead opting for a series of meetings in Europe with promoters.

There is speculation that the US-based series will broaden its global reach next year, taking in extra European cities, after the failure of China and Korea.

Mr Kalkhoven, the Aussie billionaire running the Champ Car series, has always declared Surfers Paradise the series' marque event.

Team Australia owner Craig Gore said the attractiveness of Indy was its international flavour, combined with the best V8 drivers in the country.

"I think that's a potent mix and to tamper with that would be crazy," he said.

[heelntoe]

Below is some insight into the developing situation in Australia and Kalkhoven's focus on Europe:

from goldcoast.com.au

V8s lining up for more Indy cash

13 Oct 07

"V8 Supercars want a greater slice of the Indy financial pie as behind-the-scenes drama dominates talk on the eve of the major Surfers Paradise motorsport event."

V8s boss Tony Cochrane is in talks with the State Government to finalise next year's contract, and The Bulletin understands he is seeking a greater slice of the $12 million the Government pours into the event each year.

There has also been speculation over the International Management Group's continuing role with Indy, after The Bulletin was told the group and State Government were at loggerheads over a number of issues, including IMG's profit take from the event.

Late yesterday, Lexmark Indy 300 chairman Terry Mackenroth released a statement saying that letters of intent had been drafted between IMG and the Queensland Government for a joint partnership through to 2013.

"A deal has been done," he said. "I cannot understand where all the current rumour and speculation has been circulated from and take offence to such accusations of instability in regards to Australia's No 1 motorsport spectacular.

"Our current agreement will take us through to the 2008 event and we expect to cement a formal arrangement between the Queensland Government and our event partners IMG to take us through another five-year contractual period up to and inclusive of the 2013 event."

It is understood the Champ Car sanction fee and transport costs for Surfers Paradise are close to $6 million, while the V8s get a third of that in fees and TV rights.

The high-stakes game is being played out between the Indy board and V8 board, of which Mr Cochrane is chairman.

Mr Cochrane recently stitched up a lucrative deal with the Queensland Government to run a V8 race in Townsville.

He is arguing that the V8s should be given equal financial billing with the Champ Cars, saying he had independent research showing more people came to Surfers Paradise for the V8s than the Champ Cars.

The argy bargy over next year's Queensland Government deal with the V8s coincides with a massive planned revamp of the Indy series.

For the first time, Champ Car chairman Kevin Kalkhoven will not be at Surfers Paradise for next weekend's race, instead opting for a series of meetings in Europe with promoters.

There is speculation that the US-based series will broaden its global reach next year, taking in extra European cities, after the failure of China and Korea.

Mr Kalkhoven, the Aussie billionaire running the Champ Car series, has always declared Surfers Paradise the series' marque event.

Team Australia owner Craig Gore said the attractiveness of Indy was its international flavour, combined with the best V8 drivers in the country.

"I think that's a potent mix and to tamper with that would be crazy," he said.

Excuse me, but can someone please tell me what in the heck KK is thinking!!! Not attending the most successful race in his own backyard because he has meetings with promoters!?! If you had a G5 and 250,000 coming to your own back yard, wouldn't you fly all of the bloody promoters in, wine and dine them and show them how you can actually do a race right? To me, this says that the Ferrari A1 deal has him scared and like some others, A1 will likely replace CCWS in Surfers...is this his conceding to this fact as Cochrane is now coming out swinging when he was supposedly a potential partner? I think the wagons are getting circled and KK is making a last ditch effort...but IMO, this is unbelievable

[djparky]

errggg more ego boosting European races- already in a very crowded market- F1, GP2, F3, Renault World Series, A1 GP, International Formula Masters etc- CCWS offers nothing that those series don't already provide- and those like RWS do it so much better- full grids, decent amount of sponsors and the might of Renault supporting it- even A1GP- long derided on this website has now signed a major deal with Ferarri- for engines and chassis....which one looks more likely to survive- the one with the Ferrari deal or the one without??

and CCWS is now arguing over money at Surfers Paradise- well I'm quite sure that Surfers would be a huge hit without the Champ Cars- the V8 series has packed grids and huge track attendance at every race it runs- so why does Surfers really need CCWS at all??

fan-veteran I totally agree with you- pull the plug on this farce, roll up the best races into the IRL, redesign the Dallara a bit and go racing- I loved CART- best racing in the world, but CCWS is just p*****g all over the legacy of that once great series and it should stop

[indycool]

Agree, heelntoe. Cochrane's been trying snatch more of that event for years and it's CC's biggest paycheck. Maybe KK has just given up on it because he's certainly not protecting his interests there.

[ChaimWitz]

From looking at your previous posts, it's hard to find anything positive you have ever said about the Champcar World Series..... I'm dissapointed about how Champcar played out this year, but in the same breath, there were many great moments, very competitive racing and some beautiful new road courses!!

Put away the voodoo doll!!

Champcar is going to go wherever they go no matter how we try to color it!! Changes must be made!!!

Jimispeed, I spent much of my professional life saying and doing positive things regarding Champ Car. As as for this year, I agree that there have been some bright spots (St. Jovite in particular), many good races and several interesting new stars in the making. As much as people bash Sebastian, he is my hero and his time in CCWS will long be remembered as will his and N/H/(L)'s fourth consecutive championship. All that aside, the sad truth is that the promise the season held has turned sour. I agree with you that "Champcar is going to go wherever they go no matter how we try to color it!! Changes must be made!!!" but I am not sure that is a good thing or that those changes will come soon enough. As for my voodoo doll, it looks an awful lot like a mini-Paulie G-String wearing a Motorock T-Shirt and a Hustler Clubs cap. I keep it on the same shelf as my God-awful Gene Simmons, Kiss action figure voodoo doll.

[ChaimWitz]

As much as people bash Sebastian, he is my hero

... and I always screw up the spelling of his name: Sebastien. Sebastien. Sebastien. Sebastien. Sebastien. Sebastien. Sebastien. Sebastien. Sebastien... Oh, to hell with it, Seabass works for me.

[sanguin]

CC's contract with the government for the Surfer's race runs through 2008. The race is already secured for next year and they are working on an extension and I'm sure KK has this covered. The money Champ Car gets covers the sanction fee and transport costs.

The financial demands Cochrane is making are with the government and has nothing to do with CC. They have their own contract. We'll see what they do. I would like to see TC's evidence of all V8 fans. Regardless, I do not think CC's participation will be changed.

A1GP is a winter series and does compete with CC. I also do not believe they pose any threat to CC's european events. I also do not think KK or anyone is afraid of them.

There is no reason for the owners of CC to sell anything to TG. Let him make his series successful on his own.

IMO.

[indycool]

"I'm sure KK has this covered." Huh? Arguably, the best attended race in the series in his home country and KK isn't going to show up because he "has it covered?" Gimme a break.

The financial demands Cochrane is making is with the partnership between the Queensland government and IMG, which funds and promotes the weekend, although IMG and the Queensland government have signed just a "letter of intent" to continue the partnership, according to the Bulletin.

A1GP just got a deal for Ferrari engines and support. Whether KK is afraid of them or not doesn't matter. The financial demands of A1GP may be as such that it may well be able to undercut CC's $6 million deal with Surfers. An outfit like IMG, headquartered in Cleveland and a former CART promoter in Detroit and Cleveland, would understand CC's situation much better than the Cleveland government. Cochrane has griped every year for more money down there. He may well have something in his wheelbarrow this time.

As far as TG buying anything, I think you're right. IMO, he hasn't shown any interest in buying anything.

[heelntoe]

"I'm sure KK has this covered." Huh? Arguably, the best attended race in the series in his home country and KK isn't going to show up because he "has it covered?" Gimme a break.

The financial demands Cochrane is making is with the partnership between the Queensland government and IMG, which funds and promotes the weekend, although IMG and the Queensland government have signed just a "letter of intent" to continue the partnership, according to the Bulletin.

A1GP just got a deal for Ferrari engines and support. Whether KK is afraid of them or not doesn't matter. The financial demands of A1GP may be as such that it may well be able to undercut CC's $6 million deal with Surfers. An outfit like IMG, headquartered in Cleveland and a former CART promoter in Detroit and Cleveland, would understand CC's situation much better than the Cleveland government. Cochrane has griped every year for more money down there. He may well have something in his wheelbarrow this time.

As far as TG buying anything, I think you're right. IMO, he hasn't shown any interest in buying anything.

IMG is pressing for more money than KK can afford to lose...and IMO, A1GP will have it shortly...am waiting for confirmation from my colleagues at IMG, but it's a lot to do with CCWS being able to guarantee series performance which is not likely at this time.

[indycool]

I said "Cleveland government" above and meant "Queensland government." My bad.

[sanguin]

IMG is pressing for more money than KK can afford to lose...and IMO, A1GP will have it shortly...am waiting for confirmation from my colleagues at IMG, but it's a lot to do with CCWS being able to guarantee series performance which is not likely at this time.

IMG is pressing for more money? Yes there seems to be a question about how much profit IMG will get from the Indy race. The letter of intent is a contract between the government and IMG for their partnership. What does that have to do with CC? CC has a contract through 2008.

I do not think A1GP is in the running for Surfer's ,they have their own set of problems.

But I do find this all very entertaining. nice spin.

[pits4me]

pits4me,

What do you think will happen next with Champ Car, particularly in 2008, given the difficulty in attracting sponsorship in the NAFTA markets?

Focus more on foreign venues, drivers, sponsors and team principles. We can already see companies rationalizing their sponsor dollars, even in NASCAR.

[pits4me]

Agree, heelntoe. Cochrane's been trying snatch more of that event for years and it's CC's biggest paycheck. Maybe KK has just given up on it because he's certainly not protecting his interests there.

That's what you think. You've had Champ Car headed to the morgue since day one. Amazing how those Pook numbers keep going up. Now its $100 million...... Talk about rubbing salt into a papercut.

[indycool]

sanguin, some basics:

1. IMG and the Queensland government have a partnership.
2. Presumably, CC has a contract WITH that partnership.
3. IF the partners decide something needs to happen, then the partners deal with it.
4. If the partners don't agree and their "letter of intent" disappears, they separate and bankrupt out the partnership, what is CC's contract worth?

Did you ever hear about San Jose?

[sanguin]

sanguin, some basics:

1. IMG and the Queensland government have a partnership.
2. Presumably, CC has a contract WITH that partnership.
3. IF the partners decide something needs to happen, then the partners deal with it.
4. If the partners don't agree and their "letter of intent" disappears, they separate and bankrupt out the partnership, what is CC's contract worth?



1. IMG and Queensland Government have a partnership through 2008
2. IMG and Queensland Government have a letter of intent to continue that partnership through 2013.
3. CC has a contract through 2008.
4. Queensland Government wants to secure the Indy race until 2011 with CC.

Sorry, the race will happen and I also think it will be extended with CC.

[beachbum]

Champ Car had a contract with China too. Big deal.

[ChaimWitz]

Beachbum, good point about China. I imagine that there was a contract with Phoenix as well. One does wonder if all these promoter contracts have performance clauses regarding the sanctioning body? While we are on the subject of legal matters, there is still this little problem left to deal with:

http://www.labaton.com/en/cases/In-re-JDS-Uniphase-Securities-Litigation.cfm

I am not suggesting that Kevin Kalkhoven is going to lose the JDS Uniphase Class Action suit since such cases seem very challenging for the Plantiffs, but I imagine he will likely be just a wee bit preoccupied come October 22, 2007 and thereafter. At least The Kevster and his co-defendants have had the majority of the claims dismissed by recent Summary Judgments:

http://classactiondefense.jmbm.com/2007/09/securities_fraud_class_action.html

Despite this, the fact remains that this is one of the rare Class Actions that is going to make it to trial, unless of course, it is settled out of court.

As for FerrariF1's post suggesting that I believe there will be a garage sale at RuSport… Um, no I don’t believe that. However, I do imagine that RuSport’s cars and equipment will be sold to another unsponsored and under funded entity looking for a ride buyer.

Maybe this RuSport deal will turn out just like the Conquest deal did earlier this season with the team principal laying everyone off and then chasing them out into the parking lot a few moments later to hire them back after a last minute phone call comes from a mystery “sponsor” to save the day.

[jimispeed]

Jimispeed, I spent much of my professional life saying and doing positive things regarding Champ Car. As as for this year, I agree that there have been some bright spots (St. Jovite in particular), many good races and several interesting new stars in the making. As much as people bash Sebastian, he is my hero and his time in CCWS will long be remembered as will his and N/H/(L)'s fourth consecutive championship. All that aside, the sad truth is that the promise the season held has turned sour. I agree with you that "Champcar is going to go wherever they go no matter how we try to color it!! Changes must be made!!!" but I am not sure that is a good thing or that those changes will come soon enough. As for my voodoo doll, it looks an awful lot like a mini-Paulie G-String wearing a Motorock T-Shirt and a Hustler Clubs cap. I keep it on the same shelf as my God-awful Gene Simmons, Kiss action figure voodoo doll.

Well said!! I'm still with Champcar, and hoping they do the right things to save their series. They better make sure the promotion department is completely different than this year, philosophy and all!!! Champcar, how about booking a thirty second spot during the Superbowl!! And, I would burn all of the cars in a big sayonce before I would sell to TG!!!


I wish for Champcar to survive and thrive. I've never experienced a more enjoyable style of racing. Go to the track and enjoy it for yourself!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am finding this recent topic on this thread kind of distressing. As I have been away, I come home to find out about Ferrari going to supply A1. I guess They are not going anywhere, and that by itself isn't distressing. Then I read KK isn't going to be at Surfer's, and at first I didn't see that as horrible if there was a good reason for it. Now I read in here that Cochrane is itching for more of the pie and A1 is rumoured to be a suitable replacement for CCWS at Surfer's...and I realize it may be just a rumour, but as I have seen a few A1 shows on TV, I must admit they put on a good show. If they are cheaper than Champ Car, then it might be the thin edge of the wedge that forces Champ Car out of Surfer's.

Do I like this? No....and it is just a rumour and/or speculation. That said, why Is KK missing this event? He is in Europe is the reason apparently, but I am of the opinion he is already knowing that they are being shoved out because of cost, and as we have seen, Champ Car wants its Danegeld for showing up. If he cant get the organizers in Surfer's to pay what he feels he needs, he will get out of promotors in Europe. This would be fine IF Surfer's wasn't so important to the history of Champ Car and wasn't such a huge event. Three events right now give Champ Car much of its image: Long Beach, Surfer's and Toronto. They are arguably the three most successful and well known races on the sched. To lose this one potentially would just be awful.

None of this may come to pass. KK may be gone and things will be just peachy and life will go on, but with Cochrane angling to control the show, take more dough, this is not looking good. Not saying it is a done deal, but this is NOT looking good.

Champ Car has to face the reality that they are being seen as weak, the leadership is looking ineffecutal and now the sharks are circling. A 26 car CART show 10 years ago was the attraction at Surfers. Now a 17 car CCWS show isn't quite the attraction, and Cocharne is quite rightly saying "hey, they are NOT why people are here any more. They may have been once, but I can say most of these fans are here to see MY guys, and I want to take over the money and marquee status of this event or I will leave". Cochrane would be right to say it, and KK should be there right now making his case or making sure his series isnt' left out of the shuffle....

[indycool]

Well stated, Mark....

[BrentJackson]

Well stated, Mark.

But these guys have yet to get their heads out of their collective arses, so I'm not sure what you'll get.

[FlatChatRacer]

If Kalkhoven is in Europe to make representations to potential new venues, then fair enough.

However, suppose these new European venues turn him down?
Suppose, they don't want to pay the CCWS sanction fee because it is too expensive?

Well, what happens next....if Europe says no, non, nein? Where will the money come from then?

[indycool]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/champcar/auto/41000/

Somehow, I don't think these particular three or four days for Surfers are going to make much difference or not whether KK gets zero races or a dozen in Europe. There's been no sense of urgency to get something done in Europe before now. Why now?

[beachbum]

With Kalkovens JDSU class action suit starting in 8 days, I have trouble believing he is off in Europe. If he is, then it looks like an act of desperation to chase any dollar he can find rather than the logical progression of a carefully built business plan. The timing is just wrong. If anything, he should have been in Surfers. That is in his country isn't it?

You would think he would be schmoozing the promoters he already has and trying to strengthen existing ties, rather than chasing nebulous possibilities he may got get.

[heelntoe]

With Kalkovens JDSU class action suit starting in 8 days, I have trouble believing he is off in Europe. If he is, then it looks like an act of desperation to chase any dollar he can find rather than the logical progression of a carefully built business plan. The timing is just wrong. If anything, he should have been in Surfers. That is in his country isn't it?

You would think he would be schmoozing the promoters he already has and trying to strengthen existing ties, rather than chasing nebulous possibilities he may got get.

I totally agree as I believe him to be in SJ preparing for the case, especially since he got rid of his plane :) ...and frankly, if GF was still actively involved as the most wealthy and savy racing guy of the Amigos, he would be pursuing any real deals in the UK...IMO

[ChaimWitz]

It seems that Mark Cippolini shares our frustration over the state of Champ Car. Here are some excerpts of what he posted today about Robin Miller's story about the upcoing JDS Uniphase Class Action trial:

"Miller keeps the pressure on Champ Car
Since losing his Champ Car hard card, Robin Miller has kept the pressure on Champ Car, unearthing or highlighting one weakness after another. In his latest SPEEDTV.com article, brings into doubt Champ Car's future by highlighting Kevin Kalkhoven's upcoming JDS Uniphase trial.

The lawsuit claims that JDS and four of its senior officers, Jozef Straus, Anthony R. Muller, Charles J. Abbe and Kalkhoven, misled investors about the value of their business, and that the individual defendants sold their shares at artificially inflated prices.

While we don't expect that Kalkhoven will be found guilty in the trial, it does nevertheless throw doubt into the future of Champ Car, which sends potential sponsors scurrying for the doors. It's no mere coincidence that Champ Car's three staunchest media supporters, Miller, Gordon Kirby and most recently David Phillips, have turned to pointing out all of Champ Car's weaknesses meaning that Champ Car goes into yet another off-season with many doubts surrounding its future."

Mark also had this up about the 2008 Champ Car schedule in the implications of it being delayed:

"Champ Car schedule delayed
We hear that Champ Car originally planned to release their 2008 schedule by mid-October but now we hear the earliest it is likely to come out is mid-November as it tries to finalize a much more international schedule. Meanwhile all other major race series have already released their 2008 schedule and locked up their TV inventory."

My sense is that he is wondering "what happens next?" just like the rest of us who follow this thread.

[Cart750hp]

Is this JDSU lawsuit coming is the same as the one in 2001-02 or is this another one?



Nevermind, guys.

Here: http://www.jdsclassaction.com/

Mislead? Sounds like a familiar work to most in here.

[indycool]

The JDSU lawsuit has been on the forums for a couple years now, with links to Stanford's law website and others. Miller didn't say anything new. It's merely eight days from the trial, so he reported what was going on. I surmise that he got most of what he wrote from the law firms' websites that have summarized the case from their view.

Miller isn't the one defending a lawsuit. Miller isn't the one who has delayed the schedule from mid-October to mid-November (anyone surprised?). Miller isn't the head of a sports entertainment company who won't be at the company's biggest event in his own country.

[ChaimWitz]

I now hear rumblings from multiple sources that Champ Car may be in a dispute with the promoter for Assen and Zolder which may have fractured or even ended the relationship. Unfreakinbelievable if this is indeed true. If so, it would help explain The Kevster's personal presence in Dubai (as reported by Mark Cippolini today) and Europe this week to try and nail down some sanction fee paying promoters to keep the Champ Car alive in 2008.

The truth is that this whole last minute dash for cash smacks of scrambling desperation. I cannot imagine that Mr. Kalkhoven is having much fun this month with all the fires that are raging in his house. I will give him credit, however, for at least (belatedly) focusing his considerable charm and intellect on doing what it takes to save the series before he faces what must be his most daunting personal challenge in a courthouse in Oakland, California one week from now.

Is any other major racing series in the same situation? Are they still trying to find two (or perhaps more?) new events and promoters to fill out their schedule in mid-freakin-October?

This is really beginning to look like The Amigo’s equivalent of a "Hail Mary Pass” while five points behind and with one second left on the clock in the fourth quarter in the last game of the season (before the Quarterback goes on trial!).

What kind of disjointed, incomprehensible and wandering series are we going to see when the 2008 schedule is finally announced a month (or more) from now? More to the point: Just who is this series for anymore? It does not look like it is for the fans in the USA or North America any longer. It seems the Amigos are now going after the huge untapped Champ Car fan bases in Dubai and Greece. I can only imagine how hungry they all are for a taste of the rich traditions of the American National Championship which date back to 1909.

There is a saying that comes to mind when considering all that has happened recently to our once great sport:

“If You Don't Stand for Something - You'll Fall For Anything”

[heelntoe]

I now hear rumblings from multiple sources that Champ Car may be in a dispute with the promoter for Assen and Zolder which may have fractured or even ended the relationship. Unfreakinbelievable if this is indeed true. If so, it would help explain The Kevster's personal presence in Dubai (as reported by Mark Cippolini today) and Europe this week to try and nail down some sanction fee paying promoters to keep the Champ Car alive in 2008.

The truth is that this whole last minute dash for cash smacks of scrambling desperation. I cannot imagine that Mr. Kalkhoven is having much fun this month with all the fires that are raging in his house. I will give him credit, however, for at least (belatedly) focusing his considerable charm and intellect on doing what it takes to save the series before he faces what must be his most daunting personal challenge in a courthouse in Oakland, California one week from now.

Is any other major racing series in the same situation? Are they still trying to find two (or perhaps more?) new events and promoters to fill out their schedule in mid-freakin-October?

This is really beginning to look like The Amigo’s equivalent of a "Hail Mary Pass” while five points behind and with one second left on the clock in the fourth quarter in the last game of the season (before the Quarterback goes on trial!).

What kind of disjointed, incomprehensible and wandering series are we going to see when the 2008 schedule is finally announced a month (or more) from now? More to the point: Just who is this series for anymore? It does not look like it is for the fans in the USA or North America any longer. It seems the Amigos are now going after the huge untapped Champ Car fan bases in Dubai and Greece. I can only imagine how hungry they all are for a taste of the rich traditions of the American National Championship which date back to 1909.

There is a saying that comes to mind when considering all that has happened recently to our once great sport:

“If You Don't Stand for Something - You'll Fall For Anything”

On the money and I would just add the question, what can PN possibly be thinking with all this going on right now? He is as prideful as anyone I know, but with this mickey mouse mess all in his face, how hard do you think it will be for him to simply retire after the season on a high note and go hang with the wife or his beloved Lime Rock?

[mikeearle]

The JDSU lawsuit has been on the forums for a couple years now, with links to Stanford's law website and others. Miller didn't say anything new. It's merely eight days from the trial, so he reported what was going on. I surmise that he got most of what he wrote from the law firms' websites that have summarized the case from their view.

Miller isn't the one defending a lawsuit. Miller isn't the one who has delayed the schedule from mid-October to mid-November (anyone surprised?). Miller isn't the head of a sports entertainment company who won't be at the company's biggest event in his own country.


First of all, KK does not need to be there and most likely will stay away from the trial until absolutely needed to testify (if at all) and let his laywers handle it. Also, KK and others will have ultimately had D&O insurance that would cover them in terms of this suit personally. While a pain in the backside, likely not to be a pain in KK's personal wallet.

[indycool]

With every small bit of news or rumor that has come out over the last 10 days, I think about the fat lady every time I post. I have NEVER posted that I thought CC was done, at any forum. But I think the fat lady is dressed up and may be ready to spray that stuff in her throat.

EDIT: Mike, some of those defense insurance policies have closing dates on 'em. SInce KK resigned from the company, he may have been protected until "X" date. Who knows?

[tbyars]

First of all, KK does not need to be there and most likely will stay away from the trial until absolutely needed to testify (if at all) and let his laywers handle it. Also, KK and others will have ultimately had D&O insurance that would cover them in terms of this suit personally. While a pain in the backside, likely not to be a pain in KK's personal wallet.

Mike, even if that is indeed true, what does it do to KK's credibility and personal good faith if he is found to be liable in this suit? What will this say to potential sponsors and promoters if it is determined that KK lied about the true worth of JDSU and, as a result, much of the value of the company was lost? What impact may it already be having?

Does that not have a bering to today's CCWS? Will sponsors not then apply what is past to what is current with KK's immediate ventures?

IMO. money is the least of the potential liabilities from this suit if KK ends up on the wrong side of this judgment.

[sanguin]

First of all, KK does not need to be there and most likely will stay away from the trial until absolutely needed to testify (if at all) and let his laywers handle it. Also, KK and others will have ultimately had D&O insurance that would cover them in terms of this suit personally. While a pain in the backside, likely not to be a pain in KK's personal wallet.

I agree, it will not affect CC. The fact RM is now reporting on this is proof that he is hurting from his fallout from CC.His reports will always be tainted with bias. Dancing drivers and class-action lawsuits, when will he talk about racing again?

[beachgirl]

I'm sure that Bernard Ebbers (WorldCom) and Ken Lay (Enron) thought they might have been protected by D&O coverage too. D&O coverage does NOT cover the directors and officers for any illegal and/or fraudulent acts. And we know what happened to them. This IS a big deal, particularly in today's climate. This suit is about hundreds of millions of dollars. Not pocket change by any means.

[heelntoe]

I'm sure that Bernard Ebbers (WorldCom) and Ken Lay (Enron) thought they might have been protected by D&O coverage too. D&O coverage does NOT cover the directors and officers for any illegal and/or fraudulent acts. And we know what happened to them. This IS a big deal, particularly in today's climate. This suit is about hundreds of millions of dollars. Not pocket change by any means.

Good points, but I think Larry Ellison is a better comp as KK can actually write a substantial settlement check as Larry did.

[beachgirl]

That would be an interesting settlement payment. Potentially paying them back with the money that was theirs to begin with, plus all the interest and penalties. IMHO, I'll just wait to see how this all settles out - no pun intended.

[nigelred5]

The constant Champ Car spin doctoring in the face of harsh reality reminds me of two wonderful comedy bits by Monty Python:

The Black Knight Fight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxL11RIEb5Q

The Parrot Sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTSAFcLXqYY

I can imagine The Kevster as The Black Knight and a certain poster here as the pet shop owner.

It's looking a lot like this to me ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo

[ChaimWitz]

It's looking a lot like this to me ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHPOzQzk9Qo

nigelred5, thanks for this! It is a classic. Hey, did anyone notice that they have 23 crosses rather than only 17?

[sanguin]

I'm sure that Bernard Ebbers (WorldCom) and Ken Lay (Enron) thought they might have been protected by D&O coverage too. D&O coverage does NOT cover the directors and officers for any illegal and/or fraudulent acts. And we know what happened to them. This IS a big deal, particularly in today's climate. This suit is about hundreds of millions of dollars. Not pocket change by any means.

Those cases are totally different, they were prosecuted with felonies in criminal court. Nice try.

This is a class-action lawsuit against the company,JDSU, which is still in business.It is a civil suit for money. No one will be found guilty of anything, only liable or not for a monetary settlement. That's why it could be covered by insurance.

[heelntoe]

Those cases are totally different, they were prosecuted with felonies in criminal court. Nice try.

This is a class-action lawsuit against the company,JDSU, which is still in business.It is a civil suit for money. No one will be found guilty of anything, only liable or not for a monetary settlement. That's why it could be covered by insurance.

Unbelievable...if the defendants end up liable, they are GUILTY...you cannot have one without the other. And D&O doesn't cover fraudulent conveyance or whatever else falls outside the scope of ethical behavior of a corporate officer. Regardless, this man has been accused OF THE LARGEST TRANSFER OF EXECUTIVE SHAREHOLDER WEALTH IN CORPORATE HISTORY. Do you think that IMG, or any other entity looking at the business for future sponsors, races, etc. feel all warm & fuzzy...puhleeze!

[sanguin]

It s a civil class action lawsuit brought against JDSU and some of its officers for a monetary settlement,that's all. It could go on for a long time or be settled with no responsibility by anyone. I doubt that KK will be losing any money in the end. IMO.

This has nothing to do with the CC series. As far as IMG is concerned, seems there is a question of how much profit from the Indy they should really get.I don't think messing with a proven formula is going to win them any praise, and they could very well sabotage a success.

other trouble in OZ-

http://www.starnewsgroup.com.au/story/48838

[heelntoe]

It s a civil class action lawsuit brought against JDSU and some of its officers for a monetary settlement,that's all. It could go on for a long time or be settled with no responsibility by anyone. I doubt that KK will be losing any money in the end. IMO.

This has nothing to do with the CC series. As far as IMG is concerned, seems there is a question of how much profit from the Indy they should really get.I don't think messing with a proven formula is going to win them any praise, and they could very well sabotage a success.

other trouble in OZ-

http://www.starnewsgroup.com.au/story/48838

Time will tell as far as the settlement in this case if there is one, but as usual, you do not accept the completely incorrect angle to guilt...it is not a grey area! As to what it has to do with the CCWS series, only time will tell...personally, I think KK has already decided to close up shop and NHL's departure will finalize that closing. As far as IMG. CCWS is likely to lose that race by all that is known today and again, we'll wait and see. Again, I'm pretty comfortable with the 60 day timeframe I laid down.

[indycool]

Against "JDSU AND SOME OF ITS OFFICERS." That includes former JDSU officer KK. And it HAS gone on for a long time because they're talking about 2000-2001 and the suit was filed many moons and motions ago. It goes to TRIAL next week. Most people I know have PM'd me that it's likely to be, as someone mentioned, the Larry Ellison case and be settled out of court. The lawyer fees for this action are going to be enormous. Many top corporate law firms from around the country are involved on both sides of the case because major institutional investors are involved. The State of Connecticut Employees Pension Fund is the lead plaintiff and the state's attorney general has been an open spokesman about it. Another plaintiff is the Houston Pipefitters Union. This is NOT a penny-ante deal.

[sanguin]

Time will tell as far as the settlement in this case if there is one, but as usual, you do not accept the completely incorrect angle to guilt...it is not a grey area! As to what it has to do with the CCWS series, only time will tell...personally, I think KK has already decided to close up shop and NHL's departure will finalize that closing. As far as IMG. CCWS is likely to lose that race by all that is known today and again, we'll wait and see. Again, I'm pretty comfortable with the 60 day timeframe I laid down.


heelntoe


Status: Online
Posts: 304
Join Date: Oct 2005

[quote:37xnt911] 4th Oct 07, 11:06
Originally Posted by sanguin
In your opinion.

CC can wait to see how the cash outlay works for the other series.That will be very telling. I don't think CC has anything to worry about. IMO

CC Cannot wait another year...it can't wait another 60 days without proving to its teams, sponsors and venues that it has the money to do so.
[/quote:37xnt911]

Here it is, 60 days from Oct. 4. It's on.

Remember this-

"We can only conclude that these rumors are being started by someone with malicious intent."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63049

[ChaimWitz]

Here it is, 60 days from Oct. 4. It's on.

Remember this-

"We can only conclude that these rumors are being started by someone with malicious intent."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63049

Sanquin, Wow.

I finally see the light and now grasp that all "these rumors are being started by someone with malicious intent" and there are actually no real problems that a little whistlin', obfuscatin' and postin' can't solve. Everything will be just fine for Champ Car if one understands this! Thank you for putting me back on the path to Amigoness! In appreciation, I wanted to post the following to help cheer everyone up before the fourth annual big ole' Champ Car schedule scramble and the first annual JDS Uniphase KKlass Action-o-rama:

Here is a little song I wrote
You might want to sing it note for note
Don't worry be Sanguin
In every life we have some trouble
When you worry you make it double
Don't worry, be Sanguin......

Ain't got no place to run your race
Somebody came and took your dates
Don't worry, be Sanguin
The FIA say your Sanction is late
He may have to litigate
Don't worry, be Sanguin
Look at me I am Kevin
Don't worry, be Sanguin
Here I give you my cell phone number
When you worry don't call me
I make you a Champ Car Fanatic
Don't worry, be Sanguin
Ain't got no cash, ain't got no sponsor
Ain't got not DPO1 in the hauler
But don't worry be Sanguin
Cause when you worry
Your face will frown like Paulie G
And that will bring everybody really down
So don't worry, be Sanguin (now).....

There is this little song I wrote
I hope you learn it note for note
Like good little children
Don't worry, be Sanguin
Listen to what I say
In your life expect some trouble
But when you worry
You make it double
Don't worry, be Sanguin......
Don't worry don't do it, be Sanguin
Put a smile on your face
Don't bring everybody down like this
Don't worry, it will soon push-to-pass
Whatever it is
Don't worry, be Sanguin

[beachbum]

Don't worry, be happy!

[sanguin]

Don't worry, be happy!

47 days and counting.

[beachbum]

47 days and counting.Pray tell. Is that when the fat lady sings?

[sanguin]

Nope ,its when another prediction gets proven wrong again.

[tbyars]

Nope ,its when another prediction gets proven wrong again.

You mean like your prediction that SJ was going to turn into another Long Beach, one of the strongest races on CC's schedule, and that CC wouldn't end up at Laguna Seca because that track couldn't draw flies? You mean predictions like that?

[sanguin]

You mean like your prediction that SJ was going to turn into another Long Beach, one of the strongest races on CC's schedule, and that CC wouldn't end up at Laguna Seca because that track couldn't draw flies? You mean predictions like that?

I did not say that.

:rolleyes:

[heelntoe]

You mean like your prediction that SJ was going to turn into another Long Beach, one of the strongest races on CC's schedule, and that CC wouldn't end up at Laguna Seca because that track couldn't draw flies? You mean predictions like that?

Don't bother TB, he'll be plenty bloodied and red when it's all over anyway :)

[tbyars]

I did not say that.

:rolleyes:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343180&highlight=Laguna#post343180

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343230&highlight=laguna#post343230

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343623&highlight=motorcycles#post343623

You sure you want to deny this outright? I mean, those ARE your words, aren't they?

[sanguin]

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343180&highlight=Laguna#post343180

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343230&highlight=laguna#post343230

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=343623&highlight=motorcycles#post343623

You sure you want to deny this outright? I mean, those ARE your words, aren't they?

Yes ,thanks. In the context and dates in which they were said any intelligent person can understand what was meant. IMO, LS will be bigger than Sonoma. SJ lost out.

[indycool]

sanguin, how you reach that conclusion logically is beyond my comprehension.

Laguna Seca was a favorite stop on the old PPG Indy Car World Series trail with a standing October date and CART even ended its season and held its banquet in Monterey once. Crowds were fine.

Then Pook switched the race to June for TV and it lost attendance drastically. Then someone tried to switch it back to September but the horse was out of the barn, attendance was minimal and CC gave up on it and threw together a street race in San Jose.

That turned into a nightmare of railroad tracks, under-the-table city subsidies, the subsidies getting yanked, Listwin tossing in the towel and CC saying it's going back to Laguna....in May...simply trying to save face from its screwups in the marketplace.

So, sanguin, I'd like to know the reasons you say Laguna will be bigger than Sonoma? Laguna wasn't when it ended before and the same bad date is in effect and San Jose wasn't when it ended, either.

[pvtjoker]

I did not say that.

:rolleyes:


It was YOU who predicted that CC would launch a bold new marketing plan at this year's Laguna Seca Spring Training event. Unless that marketing plan was to not promote the series or cancel 3 races then YOUR prediction has been proven false.

[tbyars]

Yes ,thanks. In the context and dates in which they were said any intelligent person can understand what was meant. IMO, LS will be bigger than Sonoma. SJ lost out.

Sanguin, that's why I posted the links INTENTIONALLY rather than just the quotes so everyone COULD see the context and dates.

Note, in the last message, your response to Cart 750. Note the context of his question.

Then note the date...about 48 hours prior to when SJ was cancelled and LS was announced.

Just sayin'...... :p :

[FlatChatRacer]

Why do you guys even bother trying to make sense of Sanguin's posts?

We can see what his posts are about. The guy loves his CCWS, doesn't like the IRL and thinks all is rosy in the world of Champ Car.

His posts are completely biased one way and therefore lacking in any objective reasoning based on factual occurrences.

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Sanguin is sitting at his keyboard giggling away at some of the replies to his posts.

[ChaimWitz]

JDS collapse headed for court
FIRM SAYS IT WAS VICTIM OF TECH BUST; LAWSUIT TELLS A DARKER STORY
By Chris O'Brien
San Jose Mercury News, 10/21/07

There may have been no more meteoric rise and fall during the tech boom than the one experienced by JDS Uniphase.

The fiber-optic company seemingly came out of nowhere in 1999 and, over a 20-month period, became a Wall Street darling that used its soaring stock to buy 11 companies. Then, just as suddenly, the company imploded in February 2001, going on to report one of the largest annual corporate losses in history, firing 83 percent of its workforce, and closing 29 offices and plants.

It might have remained a footnote of the era. But JDS is about to step back into an unwanted spotlight thanks to a shareholder lawsuit filed by the state of Connecticut that is scheduled for trial Monday in an Oakland federal courtroom.

The case may provide a verdict not only on a company, but on one of the most tumultuous moments of American economic history. Did investors simply get caught up in the hype of the bubble? Or were they deliberately deceived by unscrupulous executives in a position to cash in, as the plaintiffs allege?

Those questions prompted a surge of securities lawsuits in the wake of the Internet bust. Most were either dismissed or settled, their outcomes eclipsed by the more spectacular flameouts at Enron and WorldCom.

But JDS could be one of the first to reach trial. And one of the biggest business disasters people missed. Connecticut's lawsuit claims shareholders lost $18 billion on JDS. Since 1999, records from the state of California show that its largest public pension funds have lost more than $520 million on JDS stock.

The four JDS executives who are named as defendants sold $851.34 million in stock during that 20-month run, according to court records. They say they never saw the downturn coming. Instead, the company argues that JDS was the victim of an industrywide telecommunications bust.

"It's a simple story," said Jordan Eth, a JDS attorney. "The telecom industry thrived. And then it unexpectedly collapsed in 2001."

But Connecticut and its attorneys believe there remains a darker, untold story: They allege that JDS executives knew for months that the end was coming but did everything they could to hide the truth so they would have more time to sell stock and complete one last mega-acquisition.

At stake are perhaps billions of dollars, the future of a still struggling company and something far more elusive: the truth.

"The magnitude of the loss of shareholder value was enormous," said Catherine LaMarr, general counsel to the Connecticut state treasurer. "And it's why we consider this case so important."

1999 merger
JDS Uniphase was created on June 30, 1999, from the merger of two fiber-optic equipment makers - Uniphase of San Jose and JDS Fitel of Ottawa, Canada. The company would be jointly run by JDS's Jozef Straus, a Czech-born, beret-wearing engineer, and Uniphase's Kevin Kalkhoven, a buttoned-down Australian who drives race cars as a hobby. Kalkhoven may be best known today to San Jose residents as one of the main backers of the now-canceled Grand Prix. Both men have since left the company and are defendants in the case, along with former President Charles Abbe and former Chief Financial Officer Anthony Muller.

With joint headquarters in each city, the new company became the leading supplier of fiber-optic components to big telecom equipment companies like Nortel, Lucent Technologies and Cisco Systems. And these companies were clamoring for fiber-optic equipment that delivered blazing fast Internet services by sending beams of light through glass wires.

JDS's stock rose 600 percent over the next year, creating a valuable currency that it used to acquire 11 companies. These acquisitions reached a climax when JDS announced an all-stock deal on July 10, 2000 worth a then-record $41 billion to acquire rival SDL.

Analysts swooned. JDS seemed like the closest thing to a sure bet. Its stock had raced up from $166 on a reverse-split adjusted basis on June 30, 1999, to $1,087.52 a share on July 26, 2000. It would never be higher. After trading closed that day, JDS was added to the Standard & Poor's 500 index - a fateful decision. Automatically, numerous mutual and pension funds that mirror the index bought millions of shares to add to their portfolios.

One year later, JDS's stock stood at $75.76 a share, creating larger losses than many funds suffered on either Enron or WorldCom stock. On Friday, JDS closed at $15.23 a share.

Between June 1999 and September 2007, for example, the California Public Employees' Retirement System lost $318 million on JDS, including losses on stock it had sold and the 1.2 million shares it still owns.

Throughout 2000, however, JDS executives said publicly and in regulatory filings that business was fine. The company closed its acquisition of SDL on Feb. 12, 2001. The next day, JDS announced that the good times were over: It warned that it would miss its profit estimates for the current quarter by 19 percent.

Over the next year, the company unraveled, firing 24,000 of its 29,000 employees. It announced a $38.7 billion write-off because the value of the companies it bought had fallen and said 75 percent of its inventory was worthless and could never be sold. JDS restated its earnings for the first three months of 2001.

But JDS's woes received relatively little attention compared with WorldCom and Enron - except from one politician thousands of miles away.

Waste Management
Since being elected Connecticut treasurer in 1999, Denise Nappier has been an aggressive watchdog on stocks held by her state's public employee pension fund. In 2002, her office won a $457 million settlement from Waste Management, at the time the third-largest securities litigation settlement in history.

Connecticut's lawyer in that case was Barbara Hart, whose New York-based firm is now called Labaton Sucharow. Just as the Waste Management case was concluding, Nappier contacted Hart to tell her auditors had noticed the state's pension fund had lost $65 million on JDS stock compared with just $17 million on Enron.

After consulting with Hart, Nappier decided she wanted the state to pursue litigation against JDS.

While businesses have frequently complained about the frivolous nature of shareholder lawsuits, the odds are stacked against successfully winning a securities litigation case, thanks to the securities reform act passed in the mid-1990s and championed by Silicon Valley.

Most are dismissed without ever reaching the point where a plaintiff can interview insiders or subpoena documents. And when cases aren't dismissed, companies usually settle.

Hart referred questions about the case to Nappier's office. But during a pretrial hearing last July, Hart said JDS insiders knew by April 2000 that the business was in trouble. Big customers were canceling orders and inventory was building up. JDS should have taken big write-downs that summer of its goodwill and inventory - signals that probably would have caused panic among investors.

Instead, the company continued to paint a rosy picture the rest of 2000, while executives continued to sell stock, Hart noted.

"What was to happen in 2001 was dramatically different than what they were representing to the public," Hart said in July. "And internally, they knew that."

End of the boom
Through its attorneys, JDS has maintained that the explanation for its downfall is both simple and innocent: A tightly networked telecom industry that had experience phenomenal growth for several years suddenly went off a cliff when customers abruptly stopped buying in early 2001.

"When the boom began to fade in 2001, JDSU and thousands of other companies saw their sales decrease and their stock prices decline," JDS attorneys wrote in court filings.

JDS argues that its executives believed every word they said throughout 2000 based on the information they had. After all, the company experienced seven consecutive quarters of increased sales through the end of 2000 and always delivered on the guidance it gave Wall Street.
As soon as executives began noticing problems in January 2001, company attorneys say, they disclosed them. And sale of stock by executives was conducted within the narrow and appropriate windows allowed by regulations.

During the hearing last July, JDS attorney Jordan Eth argued that Connecticut's case isn't alleging that revenue was falling during 2000 at JDS, but rather that growth rates were declining.

"It's like my 14-year-old is not growing as much as he used to," Eth said. "But he's not projected to shrink."

By continuing to fight, JDS is defying conventional wisdom. Experts can recall only a few securities cases out of thousands filed over the past decade that have gone through trial. Many observers say they still expect a last-minute settlement.

"If this case goes to a jury decision, you'd have a lot of people paying very close attention," said Lyle Roberts, author of a securities litigation blog called the 10b-5 Daily and a partner in a Washington, D.C., securities litigation firm.

JDS has not turned a profit since its heyday. It consolidated its headquarters in San Jose in late 2003 though it is now based in Milpitas. In the fiscal year ending June 2007, the company lost $119.2 million on $1.4 billion in revenue. And while the company has managed to hang on by expanding into business besides fiber optics, some observers wonder if it could survive an adverse ruling in a case where plaintiffs are claiming $18 billion in damages. In its most recent proxy, the company warned that losing could have a big impact.

"I think I'm a little surprised the defendants have let it go this far," LaMarr said. "There's a big risk for the defendants. But that's OK. We're ready to go to trial."

[indycool]

FCR, you could be right. I've never seen anyone here as inaccurate.....maybe to the "fire up the troops?" If so, doesn't seem to be working when we have a discussion and flames it out.

[pvtjoker]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Sanguin is sitting at his keyboard giggling away at some of the replies to his posts.

BINGO!

[DrJackMiller]

The converstation seems to be stalling out here on my favorite thread so in honor of Halloween, I have decided to once again rise from the Cyberdead. Just call me DrJack-The-Cipper.

Don't you just hate it when, once a month, great Champ Car racing at a wonderful venue (and a fourth consecutive Championship won) interupts our idle speculation against the vaccum of fact that now surrounds our favorite series?

So, now that we are all back to waiting an eternity for the next race we can all go back to pondering "what happens next".

We all have seen the hard denials by both sides of the wild rumors coming out of Australia about an unlikely V-8 Super Car and Champ Car mega-alliance that some hoped was being forged as the lastest "plan" to resurect the Champ Car World Series.

But don't fret! This week we have two potentially scary events: The JDS Uniphase Class Action lawsuit (see the Autoracing1.com homepage), has started and is scheduled to run another 17 days. Then there is the FIA World Council meeting in Paris on Wednesday (tomorrow) where I imagine Champ Car will give some clue about the schedule and International events.

Even Derrick Walker was recently wondering "what happens next?":

"The proof in the pudding as to if the series will be around in '08 will not be whether or not we produce a schedule between now and Mexico City. The series can announce anything it wants. It doesn't mean it is a commitment. That entices sponsors and networks stability and shows a commitment to the schedule and philosophy of the series. If we are wrestling with a schedule for next year a few weeks before the end of our fourth season, then the sponsors and the networks are going to ignore us into obscurity. Another year of pounding sand and losing money is not what we needed for year 2 or 3, and especially not year 4. Asking for one more would be a tall order from the owners who are sick of the malaise."

Stay tuned. I have a feeling it is about to get more interesting.

[Chaparral66]

The converstation seems to be stalling out here on my favorite thread so in honor of Halloween, I have decided to once again rise from the Cyberdead. Just call me DrJack-The-Cipper.

Don't you just hate it when, once a month, great Champ Car racing at a wonderful venue (and a fourth consecutive Championship won) interupts our idle speculation against the vaccum of fact that now surrounds our favorite series?

So, now that we are all back to waiting an eternity for the next race we can all go back to pondering "what happens next".

We all have seen the hard denials by both sides of the wild rumors coming out of Australia about an unlikely V-8 Super Car and Champ Car mega-alliance that some hoped was being forged as the lastest "plan" to resurect the Champ Car World Series.

But don't fret! This week we have two potentially scary events: The JDS Uniphase Class Action lawsuit (see the Autoracing1.com homepage), has started and is scheduled to run another 17 days. Then there is the FIA World Council meeting in Paris on Wednesday (tomorrow) where I imagine Champ Car will give some clue about the schedule and International events.

Even Derrick Walker was recently wondering "what happens next?":

"The proof in the pudding as to if the series will be around in '08 will not be whether or not we produce a schedule between now and Mexico City. The series can announce anything it wants. It doesn't mean it is a commitment. That entices sponsors and networks stability and shows a commitment to the schedule and philosophy of the series. If we are wrestling with a schedule for next year a few weeks before the end of our fourth season, then the sponsors and the networks are going to ignore us into obscurity. Another year of pounding sand and losing money is not what we needed for year 2 or 3, and especially not year 4. Asking for one more would be a tall order from the owners who are sick of the malaise."

Stay tuned. I have a feeling it is about to get more interesting.

I think we'll see what's next when the schedule comes out for 2008. Problem is, CC takes way too long. Add to that, they now have a history of putting events on there that later get cancelled. That's not exactly confidence inspiring with the fans or sponsors. If I were them, I'd come out with a schedule of reliable domestic (that being North American) and solid foriegn dates, and announce the other prospective dates when confirmed in granite. The IRL's schedule is out already I believe, which means that teams can start chasing sponsors. The CC teams can't really secure a sponsor on spec, no sponsor with a brain will do that. Fix this one thing and CC would look better right away.

[indycool]

Agree, Chap. And I don't know why I think this other than just the general trend at various places, but I don't think, at this point, that even a tentative CC schedule is even close to reality. Bob Garage posted seven races or so he thought would be "good" on another thread, and with the exception that I still believe Vegas is history, I can't see any further than he did.

[sanguin]

Where's the link to that quote?

it's passed around the IRL forums with no source.

[sanguin]

Agree, Chap. And I don't know why I think this other than just the general trend at various places, but I don't think, at this point, that even a tentative CC schedule is even close to reality. Bob Garage posted seven races or so he thought would be "good" on another thread, and with the exception that I still believe Vegas is history, I can't see any further than he did.

IC ,its been reported that the schedule is waiting for FIA approval.

[indycool]

Yep, that's what been hazily reported here and there.

[Chaparral66]

Agree, Chap. And I don't know why I think this other than just the general trend at various places, but I don't think, at this point, that even a tentative CC schedule is even close to reality. Bob Garage posted seven races or so he thought would be "good" on another thread, and with the exception that I still believe Vegas is history, I can't see any further than he did.

This is my main point. CC can't afford to wait so long on a schedule, they would end up shooting themselves in the foot. Wait too long and the sponsors lose interest, and without any funding coming in, that means cash strapped teams might come to the Amigos for cash and they said that garvy train has run aground. If it came out right now, the teams would have at least a fighting chance to get some support.

[heelntoe]

Yep, that's what been hazily reported here and there.

Umm, since the formation of OWRS/CCWS, when has the FIA approval ever been mentioned as a reason for the late announcement of the schedule? Since the schedule has been put out late EVERY SINGLE YEAR, why is it only this year that it's being used to make us believe the delay is legitimate? Maybe because of the China debacle? I mean it certainly can't be because the series has to have so many races outside of the US just to survive, is it :)

[indycool]

That's why I said "hazily." :)

[sanguin]

In case you missed it-



The Champ Car World Series officials have confirmed to PaddockTalk that their calendar will be released within the next few weeks.

The 2008 Champ Car calendar is currently being reviewed by the FIA, who are due to meet to ratify the schedule.

It would be reasonable to expect that Champ Car are double and triple checking their events to avoid race cancellations that have plagued the series over the last couple of seasons.

Champ Car staff were cagy about the details, but they were confident that they will have enough cars on the grid next year.


PaddockTalk Perspective

Be patient race fans, the new schedule will certainly be an interesting opportunity to see Champ Car's direction, and what it will mean for its future.
http://www.paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=69619

[indycool]

Oh.

[FlatChatRacer]

Hey Guys,

No need to worry. Sanguin has set everything straight with his post in case we missed it.

I didn't miss it and read it on another site. However I will wait patiently to see this final schedule and what it looks like. As I have said before, the contents of the schedule will be the clearest indication of what lies ahead for the series in 2008.

[beachbum]

Funny, every other significant racing series has posted their schedules and many (most) need FIA approvals. Smoke and mirrors.

[Lousada]

The FIA world council met yesterday. The calendar should be approved now (or not).

[indycool]

Should we expect an announcement today then?

[indycool]

The FIA approved the Singapore race for F1 as the first night race in F1 history yesterday, per AR1. When are they scheduled to discuss/approve the CC schedule if it has been submitted?

[BobGarage]

apparently... they meet last week in October. CC schedule and "superleague formula" schedule should both be up for approval that week.

[indycool]

Bob, do we know for sure if CC has submitted one? I remember your post on it that listed seven events (including Vegas, which I don't think will happen), and I couldn't name any more than you did. Certainly CC knows the deals they're making better than us, but.....

[BobGarage]

theres been no official statement to say it has, but from interviews with cc officials you can gather that it is with the fia and approval is all we are waiting for before an announcement.

I would expect a schedule announcement first week of November. if not certainly before mexico. If we don't get a schedule before mexico i would be worried.

As for the dates i posted, they are the confirmed ones. They were either announced when the ALMS schedule was and confirmed as double headers with Champ Car or confirmed by ticket renewals etc. Vegas date i posted was on the vegas website, but has since been removed, hence the speculation around the event.

You can work out what the schedule will look like. an educated guess would give you something like this:-

6th April - Vegas (originally confirmed on website but no longer there)
20th April - Long Beach (Confirmed)
27 April - Houston (Confirmed)
20 May - Laguna Seca (Confirmed)
3rd June - Euro 1 (possibly nurburgring)
8 June - Euro 2 (Belgium or another)
22 June - Cleveland
29 June Mt. Tremblant
6 July Toronto (Confirmed)
20 July Edmonton (Confirmed)
10 August - Road America (Confirmed)
31 August - Euro 3 (UK, France, Greece?)
7 Septemebr - Assen (speculation based on dates mentioned by the track at this years round)
12 October - Dubai/Barhain/China
19 October - Sufers Paradise
9 November - Mexico

Items in bold are confirmed dates. The rest is of course all speculation.

That would elave out Portland. But they could move china/dubai/bahrain back to after the surfers round and have portland in mid-September if they were to keep it. Or they could keep it in its currentl slot and have just oen euro trip.

We'll know for sure in a week or two ;)

[heelntoe]

theres been no official statement to say it has, but from interviews with cc officials you can gather that it is with the fia and approval is all we are waiting for before an announcement.

I would expect a schedule announcement first week of November. if not certainly before mexico. If we don't get a schedule before mexico i would be worried.

As for the dates i posted, they are the confirmed ones. They were either announced when the ALMS schedule was and confirmed as double headers with Champ Car or confirmed by ticket renewals etc. Vegas date i posted was on the vegas website, but has since been removed, hence the speculation around the event.

You can work out what the schedule will look like. an educated guess would give you something like this:-

6th April - Vegas (originally confirmed on website but no longer there)
20th April - Long Beach (Confirmed)
27 April - Houston (Confirmed)
20 May - Laguna Seca (Confirmed)
3rd June - Euro 1 (possibly nurburgring)
8 June - Euro 2 (Belgium or another)
22 June - Cleveland
29 June Mt. Tremblant
6 July Toronto (Confirmed)
20 July Edmonton (Confirmed)
10 August - Road America (Confirmed)
31 August - Euro 3 (UK, France, Greece?)
7 Septemebr - Assen (speculation based on dates mentioned by the track at this years round)
12 October - Dubai/Barhain/China
19 October - Sufers Paradise
9 November - Mexico

Items in bold are confirmed dates. The rest is of course all speculation.

That would elave out Portland. But they could move china/dubai/bahrain back to after the surfers round and have portland in mid-September if they were to keep it. Or they could keep it in its currentl slot and have just oen euro trip.

We'll know for sure in a week or two ;)

It has been announced elsewhere that the schedules have been approved for all FIA member series, including CCWS, but that it has not been released yet...we should know soon.

[BobGarage]

according to FIA website the world motorsport council met yesterday. their news item only confirms schedules for FIA run series. I guess we'll have to wait for CC to make the announcement for their schedule now....

[indycool]

Time will tell, but I cannot imagine that all the non-North American dates are etched in granite, signed, sealed and delivered and if, in fact, the FIA has a CC schedule, I would think there are some races in the "China" mode of '07. IMO, some reasonable reporter should call the FIA and ask what the status of the CC schedule is.

[Chaparral66]

If I had a contact point, I'd do that myself...

[beachgirl]

Ok. The World Motor Sport Coucil met yesterday, Wednesday Oct. 24, and approved the Formula 1 schedule for 2008, news of which was released by the FIA. See http://www.autosport.com

Now, we will see how long it takes for Champ Car. See if the holdup really is the FIA/World Motor Sport Council.

Sorry I'm skeptical about the reason(s) for the delay in the release of Champ Car's 2008 schedule. Actually, I have no reason to believe that it'll be released any time before the first "scheduled" race of 2008. We didn't know who most of the drivers were going to be and who they were going to race for until they went out for first practice that weekend. Why should I expect anything different for 2008?

And please, this is not doom-and-gloom. Just being realistic based on all past performances by the series.

[indycool]

Me too, Chap....I don't either.

[pits4me]

So, now that we are all back to waiting an eternity for the next race we can all go back to pondering "what happens next".

We all have seen the hard denials by both sides of the wild rumors coming out of Australia about an unlikely V-8 Super Car and Champ Car mega-alliance that some hoped was being forged as the lastest "plan" to resurect the Champ Car World Series.

But don't fret! This week we have two potentially scary events: The JDS Uniphase Class Action lawsuit (see the Autoracing1.com homepage), has started and is scheduled to run another 17 days. Then there is the FIA World Council meeting in Paris on Wednesday (tomorrow) where I imagine Champ Car will give some clue about the schedule and International events.


Next week its AAPEX and SEMA. Will Champ Car be there again this year?

[tbyars]

Next week its AAPEX and SEMA. Will Champ Car be there again this year?

They aren't listed as an exibitor.

Looking at the the celebs list, the only two CCWS-related participants listed are Graham Rahal (can't remember where he was) and Paul Tracy, who is at the Sherwin Williams booth right after Michael Andretti.

By the way, someone with at least a basic knowledge of web-based database applications needs to take a serious look at the SEMA site. That's terrible! Some of the pages I looked at took over 10 minutes to load, and my ISP seems to be clicking along pretty good tonight.

[FlatChatRacer]

In keeping with the original theme of this thread, "What Happens Next", well I see a lot of posts referring to confirmed races for 2008.

So, indeed it does look like there will be 2008 season. However, does anyone know if the schedule has been officially released or are the other posts just speculation and rumour?

[indycool]

Some tracks and ALMS have announced schedules but CC has said nothing.

[blackfox]

By all accounts Champ Car is holding nothing back for the season finale in Mexico City. So if Champ Car has the biggest awaited news of the Fall, it would makes sense to me to announce it there.

[calacan]

Hi Everyone, long time lurker, first time poster….and I’m a Champcaroholic.

First let me state for the record, I have never watched an entire IRL or NASCAR race.

This thread sure has taken some twists and turns, but Dr. Jack’s question remains “what happens next”. I’m not an insider, just a long time fan. I watched the series last year with child-like glee, it reminded me of the early 90’s. The Tracy/Tags/Seb antics, the great AJ story, Kat’s scary crash and subsequent smile’n wave…great stuff. Things were looking good for CC, I really thought so anyway. Heck, they were even on mainstream TV sometimes. The plan was coming together!

In one year the series went from that….to where we are now. Sure, there were some negatives last year - cancelled race, lost AJ to the dark side – but things were looking good, or maybe ignorance was bliss in my case. New cars were on the way, higher car count promised, new races (Vegas streets no less) and new sponsor deals in the works. What we got instead was more cancelled races, more lost drivers, less cars on track, less sponsors and a team shutting down. Sure the new car is good, but the intention was to bring in more new teams as well as better racing. Ok, maybe this year is just a set back. Maybe this time next year we’ll look back and say “wow, things were really bad there for a while, sure glad Kevin knew what he was doing” But I don’t think so.

I’ve always thought CART/CC would be there forever, this year is the first time I have ever questioned that. It is truly sad what’s become of the once mighty IndyCar series, but that doesn’t change what I see as the inevitable. Only one top level AOW series can exist, there just isn’t room for two. Whose fault it is for this predicament doesn’t really matter anymore does it? TG, Bernie, the France family, the Amigo’s, they all played their part I suppose. From a fan’s perspective I don’t really care. All we want is good racing at good venues with good drivers that we know and can cheer for, period.

IMO what should happen next is the much talked about merger, not a take over. What shouldn’t happen is for the two sides to sit around and wait until one or the other goes out of business. That doesn’t make sense. Both series have something to offer right now, and both would benefit from a merger. One side may have more to offer than the other, leave that to the arbitrators to decide. If KK and TG really care about AOW then they should do what’s right. It’s time to heal, they were all family once…years ago. Like an awkward family squabble, both side need to swallow their pride and do what’s right. For the good of the sport and out of respect to the fans, I hope they can find a way to make it work.

[CCFan]

...IMO what should happen next is the much talked about merger, not a take over. What shouldn’t happen is for the two sides to sit around and wait until one or the other goes out of business...

Actually, is there a good reason for TG to not sit around & wait for CC to go out of business, even it means risking the IRL?

Think about it. As I remember, the idea for CART came around, in part, because Tony Hulman had no interest in helping to promote the rest of the Championship series because he thought that it would detract from Indy.

If BOTH series die, then what are we left with? Just the I500. Right where we started before CART came into existence. TG wouldn't have to help prop up the IRL anymore.

What would be the downside for TG?

[indycool]

IMO, they won't BOTH go out of business. TG founded the IRL as a series centered around the "500" and that point hasn't changed. CC picked up the assets of CART and is doing its thing...for better or worse, that point hasn't changed, either.

[CCFanatic]

IMO, they won't BOTH go out of business. TG founded the IRL as a series centered around the "500" and that point hasn't changed. CC picked up the assets of CART and is doing its thing...for better or worse, that point hasn't changed, either.

Hey, something that I agree with you on. Awesome. Just how you'd probably liek to see CC to go under, and I th IRL, we can both agree, both will not go under. There is too much support behind each series for either to go under.

[Cart750hp]

What's the rush of knowing the schedule for next year?

It'll be the same day as today of next year yet schedules are still not finalized. Cancelled venues, postponed....what the heck....wat's the rush?

[indycool]

Point taken. If it IS announced, what does it mean?

[Cart750hp]

Anyone cares more than the teams and CC fans that the schedule has to be announced? I don't see any point of announcing it now or November of 2008. Makes no difference to sponsors, promoters, medias, realists....no difference at all.

[nigelred5]

This late in the game, it really doesn't matter other than to give us hope there will be a season. The entire business plan, schedule, technology changes, etc. at the series level for next year should have been finalized months ago. Of course not a single one of us knows that it hasn't, but teams, sponsors, venues and fans sure would like to know. Maybe KK et al have finally learned to keep their cards a tad closer to their chest with the rate at which the competetors have taken their ideas and strategies.

[indycool]

As silent as CC is, one wonders what's done and what's not done. I understand the PR department at CC is now empty, the final two people having left for other things.

[mike15]

As silent as CC is, one wonders what's done and what's not done. I understand the PR department at CC is now empty, the final two people having left for other things.
Rumor or FACT.
"I understand" implies rumor probable picked up from another forum.

With all the negative comments regarding the PR department it may be a great idea to dump them all and start new.

[indycool]

Well, I haven't heard Sid Priddle, who was hired as a consultant, has left, so maybe he's still there. My source is a good one, but call the CC HQ and ask if you don't believe me.

And they HAVE "lost," not dumped, pretty much the whole PR department this year. Erik Mauk left for Rahal-Letterman. Merrill Cain left for the Detroit IRL race. The latest are a guy and a gal, one headed to the NHRA, one getting out of racing. They DID pick up Nate Siebens for some website work at some point along with Priddle, but I don't know how much time Priddle spends there -- he lives in Toronto -- or even if he's still aboard and Siebens lives in Florida and does a contract deal.

[sanguin]

Originally Posted by heelntoe
Time will tell as far as the settlement in this case if there is one, but as usual, you do not accept the completely incorrect angle to guilt...it is not a grey area! As to what it has to do with the CCWS series, only time will tell...personally, I think KK has already decided to close up shop and NHL's departure will finalize that closing. As far as IMG. CCWS is likely to lose that race by all that is known today and again, we'll wait and see. Again, I'm pretty comfortable with the 60 day timeframe I laid down.

Originally Posted by
heelntoe


Status: Online
Posts: 304
Join Date: Oct 2005

Originally Posted by
4th Oct 07, 11:06
Originally Posted by sanguin
In your opinion.

CC can wait to see how the cash outlay works for the other series.That will be very telling. I don't think CC has anything to worry about. IMO

CC Cannot wait another year...it can't wait another 60 days without proving to its teams, sponsors and venues that it has the money to do so.


Here it is, 60 days from Oct. 4. It's on.

Remember this-

"We can only conclude that these rumors are being started by someone with malicious intent."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63049

30 days and counting on this prediction.

[eliz39]

No malicious rumor...Priddle was let go in early september - told he was no longer needed...same day another young lady was fired, one of the remaining two has left which leaves the boy wonder from tennis (vp of strategic development) & one other person. They borrowed from the Atlantic's for the aussie race & Nate has been helping out. PR Dept was seriously undermanned even with Eric Mauk...Priddle was given a mandate to upgrade...Mauk got a better job offer & priddle's plan was scrapped when tennis boy was hired.

[ArrowsFA1]

Has anyone else picked up the latest issue of UK-based Motor Sport magazine (http://www.motorsportmagazine.co.uk/)? In it is a one-page article by (IIRC) Gordon Kirby which paints a bleak picture for OWR in the US :dozey: It includes comments from Paul Newman, Chip Ganassi and a realistic assessment from Bill France (told to GK before his death) that OWR would implode and NASCAR would benefit.

The article also includes the news that Justin Wilson will not be going to NHL, but is heading for AGR in the IRL and/or ALMS :dozey:

[BobGarage]

The article also includes the news that Justin Wilson will not be going to NHL, but is heading for AGR in the IRL and/or ALMS :dozey:

haven't AGR filled their seats in the IRL..... Kanaan, Marco, Danica and the new signing. unless they are going to field 5 cars justin isn't going to their IRL operation.

[pvtjoker]

the new jap signing.

Nice...

[weeflyonthewall]

Not if Marco winds up alongside Graham Rahal.

[Hoss Ghoul]

Updates on KK court trial, very relevant to CC's future:

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/champcar/news/157243-0/kalkhoven_takes_the_stand.html

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/champcar/news/157412-0/kalkhoven_case_drawing_to_close.html


"During all his time at JDSU, Kalkhoven said he worked hard, and was with the company for eight years, retiring in May 2000 at the age of 56, leaving the firm in the 'good hands' of Strauss, Charles Abbe, and Robert Muller, all co-defendants in the current case. Since his retirement, Kalkhoven said he'd been 'relaxing a bit, engaged in the motorsports business, doing philanthropic work and investing as a venture capitalist', none of which, he said, 'required the amount of time he spent at JDSU - even all combined together'."

Lol, I'm rooting for that CC race at Laguna Seca, but there's no way anyone with a sense of humor can resist this, hilarious, and telling...no wonder CC is in the crapper with him at the helm.

Now to the non-racing portion:

"Kalkhoven signed a consultancy contract with JDSU when he retired, which compensated him $400,000 pro rata per month plus health benefits. He also signed a routine non-compete clause. He was still subject to the company trading windows, but denied that he received inside or adverse information about JDSU after he retired. He thought JDSU 'had stellar promise', but exercised $158 million in JDSU stock options between 31 July and 31 August 2000, another $198 million in September the same year, $105 million in the October and eight million in November. Just prior to the JDSU teleconference on 25 January 2001, Kalkhoven sold an additional $55 million. The figure of $558,500 million was mentioned in court as the total stock sales. The net proceeds of the stock sales were invested in and allocated to KPLJ or diverted for philanthropic work.

Kalkhoven said his financial advisors had been telling him for some time to divest in order not to keep all of his eggs in one JDSU basket. He says he chose to sell about 50 per cent of his stock as it 'sounded like a good number', albeit less than his advisors had wanted him to sell. He kept more than three million shares."


Be your own judge on the above.

[pvtjoker]

Not if Marco winds up alongside Graham Rahal.

Is Rahal moving to AGR/IRL? I haven't heard that rumor.

[CCFan]

Updates on KK court trial, very relevant to CC's future:

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/champcar/news/157243-0/kalkhoven_takes_the_stand.html

http://www.crash.net/motorsport/champcar/news/157412-0/kalkhoven_case_drawing_to_close.html


"During all his time at JDSU, Kalkhoven said he worked hard, and was with the company for eight years, retiring in May 2000 at the age of 56, leaving the firm in the 'good hands' of Strauss, Charles Abbe, and Robert Muller, all co-defendants in the current case. Since his retirement, Kalkhoven said he'd been 'relaxing a bit, engaged in the motorsports business, doing philanthropic work and investing as a venture capitalist', none of which, he said, 'required the amount of time he spent at JDSU - even all combined together'..."



More than one poster on the forum has claimed that Champcar is just "a hobby for a group of rich guys." If the statement above is accurate, then that kind of effort has no chance of getting CC anywhere near to CART of the nineties.

[jimispeed]

Rumor or FACT.
"I understand" implies rumor probable picked up from another forum.

With all the negative comments regarding the PR department it may be a great idea to dump them all and start new.


Exactly!! Their PR department needs to be much bigger, and much much better!!


Spend the money!!!

[FlatChatRacer]

Jimispeed,

It would appear that money is in short supply in the CCWS. The owners do not show any sign of loosening the purse strings any time soon.

[jimispeed]

Jimispeed,

The owners do not show any sign of loosening the purse strings any time soon.


And, I'm not showing any sign of going back to work yet either. Just because they're not showing a sign right now, doesn't mean that's all we're gonna get!


If Champcar doesn't step up to the plate though, and put together a phenom team for their PR/Adverts, then they might as well step down!! Champcar is an awesome product that deserves to be heard/seen by all!! I hope we see Champcar being pumped to the masses during this off season!!

[Cart750hp]

CC needs:

Blank check from the owners
GP and SJ gone
A new CEO
New PR dep't
New Sales dep't
New Marketing dep't
New owners by the end of the year.

[tbyars]

CC needs:

Blank check from the owners
GP and SJ gone
A new CEO
New PR dep't
New Sales dep't
New Marketing dep't
New owners by the end of the year.

Come on, CART750...let's be realistic about this. How are you going to get a blank check from the owners and then ask them to step down after thay have delivered that?

I think, personally, that you have seen the end of the great infusion of money into CCWS.

It worked last year; you'll see it again this year. There won't be any great infusion on money from the series. And the series will wear the fact that it's not infusing money into the series like a badge of honor, just like they did last year.

[Cart750hp]

Come on, CART750...let's be realistic about this. How are you going to get a blank check from the owners and then ask them to step down after thay have delivered that?

You know why? Because there ain't no check coming. Either they have a check or not, the series need a new ownership and management.


I think, personally, that you have seen the end of the great infusion of money into CCWS.

It worked last year; you'll see it again this year. There won't be any great infusion on money from the series. And the series will wear the fact that it's not infusing money into the series like a badge of honor, just like they did last year.

I couldn't agree more. 2007 was their huge chance to turn the series just because of their new chassis and good new locations.......poooooooofff!

[FORMULA-A]

Reading this latest batch of letters I feel such frustration at the CCWS situation. Not only does it seem likely that no great amount of money is being pumped in but worse, I get the feeling that the powers that be don't even understand why we are ASKING for a lump of money to be pumped in. Its like we are all privy to some billionaire boy version of the SCCA...all sitting around the table toasting with "heres hoping it works lads or what about rocket plane races toasts.

Sad and pathetic.

[indycool]

Well, Petit is a great example. He owns a piece of PKV but buys RuSport to keep it alive and runs one car, then combines with Rocketsports in some awkward form to field a two-car team with a net loss of two cars. Then comes unglued with Rocketsports and folds his team for a net loss of another car.

Now comes word that he, CDW and Wilson are headed for Forsythe for what most probably is a second car paid for, which is what Forsythe wanted at the start of last year, for a net loss of one more car.

And all these are series owners.

[Wraith]

I would give massively detailed replies to this thread, and specifically Jack himself (his original post anyway)...if I wasn't unsure of the response to a "rank n00b" at these forums for being the one doing so, and the possibility of hazing swiftly resulting.

As it stands, I'll quietly state, for the moment, that the Great Civil War was created by circumstances quite resembling the one America had from 1861-1865:

1. Wildly divergent philosophies on absolutely fundamental issues.
2. A very long list of grievances, by both sides, that were almost universally ignored by the other.
3. A gradually developing hard-headedness and/or passionate fanaticism, again by both sides.
4. An equally developing sense of 'moral superiority' by both for the kind of actions (sport) that they enjoy/support.
5. The sparing of no expense by either side to portray the other as not only their opposition, but a true threat to the sanctity of everything they hold dear and/or have grown up with (thereby bringing a family values angle into The Struggle).
6. The embracing of true hatred for the other (for "messing up what [they] had," among other things, in one overall era or another), the longer the struggle has ground on.
7. And lastly, pride; pride on either side that they do not need the other, and that the world would be a better place if the other did not exist, even if that means they themselves have to die, too.

With that in mind, how long has it taken for America to get over its differences? Last I checked, when someone in a private plane flew over a NAS track with a sign following that proclaimed, DON'T FORGET YOUR ROOTS, with a Confederate flag attached...a very long time indeed.

I wonder if the true hatred exhibited by both for each other, for 1.5 decades and counting, can ever be erased, at least within twice as long, or longer, a period. If not, a merger would only be a success on the surface...a lot like Otto von Bismarck's 1871 unification of Germany "by blood and iron." Extreme example, but hatred creates extremes.

[indycool]

Very well-pointed out, Wraith. We now have half a generation of fans who are polarized and potential fans who don't even know about the split except what they hear or read on racing forums. And for some who have followed it all these years, merger would not solve their problems.

[nanders]

I think, personally, that you have seen the end of the great infusion of money into CCWS.


You still might when the JDS Uniphase stuff is settled. It could be, he wasn't spending money that he would have to return.

[Cart750hp]

You still might when the JDS Uniphase stuff is settled. It could be, he wasn't spending money that he would have to return.

Sometimes I get to thinking....this lawsuit is just right on time. KK may sell his portion of the series or even sell the entire series to another. Sweet.

[FlatChatRacer]

If, and it is a huge if....Kevin Kalkhoven were to sell his stake in the CCWS, then there are only two potential buyers that would make me feel things could get better.

1. Gerry Forsythe - Probably the only person who could run CCWS as an effective dictatorship ala Bernie Ecclestone and F1.

2. Tony George - Whilst not my preferred option, it would lead to a de-facto merger and end the split in one fell swoop.

[Cart750hp]

1. Gerry Forsythe - Probably the only person who could run CCWS as an effective dictatorship ala Bernie Ecclestone and F1.

Now that KK is the prime owner, still, it's dictatorship. If there's someone who can turn the series around it would have to be one of the owner of the teams in Champ Car or former teams who are now in IRL. Just makes me wonder why they never got themselves involved of purchasing the series instead of heading to IRL.


2. Tony George - Whilst not my preferred option, it would lead to a de-facto merger and end the split in one fell swoop.

Me too. But by Long Beach 09 and still no changes.....I'd pick #2.

[nanders]

Very well-pointed out, Wraith. We now have half a generation of fans who are polarized and potential fans who don't even know about the split except what they hear or read on racing forums. And for some who have followed it all these years, merger would not solve their problems.

And the band plays on ..............

[nigelred5]

Just makes me wonder why they never got themselves involved of purchasing the series instead of heading to IRL.

Me too. But by Long Beach 09 and still no changes.....I'd pick #2.

Umm, if you recall, they DID own part of the series and they all divested themselves of that ownership to cash in BEFORE they went to the IRL. The three Amigos were originally what, 18 or so "amigos", although not all of them were exactly friendly all the time.

[Wraith]

Why not divest oneself of a venture that is losing money? I think the consensus is pretty universal, no matter if you hate/love either side, that the "Amigos" keep everything afloat via deep pockets.

EDIT: And on the other front, via nanders... If they just flat merge, straight out, potential future fans are going to have a world of fun trying to get past the venom and hate people would be screaming at each other, from stuff all the way back to 1979, nevermind just 1996.

[garyshell]

EDIT: And on the other front, via nanders... If they just flat merge, straight out, potential future fans are going to have a world of fun trying to get past the venom and hate people would be screaming at each other, from stuff all the way back to 1979, nevermind just 1996.


Oh please, you have to be kidding about the 1979 bit. From 1990 to right before the split when was there EVER a cross word spoken about the "stuff all the way back to 1979"? Without a doubt there will be some venom that would linger about the split, but over time even that will fade. And to be honest, I think 99.99% of that will be reserved for "...king George" himself. I know I harbor no ill will over the split with any of the teams, owners or drivers. I also know that that sentiment is NOT shared by all the folks who lined up on the CART side of the split.

Gary

[pits4me]

KK may sell his portion of the series or even sell the entire series to another. Sweet.

According to you and many others, CC is worthless -- if I were to believe most of the negative diatribe posted on the world wide blog, that is.

When we look at the situation from a business perspective, the rebuilding process has taken longer than most expected. Also its safe to assume the Champ Car principals anticipated much less resistence in getting US-based open wheel racing repositioned in the motorsports market. Meanwhile, they have invested an incredible amount of money in not keeping the series from folding, but more importantly they are creating a bankable foundation for the future.

The good news is the Champ Car Atlantic Championship has passed the litmus test and proof the foundation in progress is good for open wheel racing fans and drivers wishing to develop their skills. Two Mansell lads on the CCAC grid in 2008 is further evidence to just how far the development series has come in just 3 years.

Yes, Champ Car will answer the bell in 2008! The circumstances are also there for a corporate White Knight to make his move and it won't be Tony George.

[nanders]

When we look at the situation from a business perspective, the rebuilding process has taken longer than most expected.

It has not been a rebuilding, it has been a redesigning in a European image. I'll get back to you on this when some ovals appear on the schedule. 4 ovals sound pretty good.

[indycool]

IMO, it's just been a fast change from U.S. street courses to an international focus on permanent road courses.

[Wraith]

Oh please, you have to be kidding about the 1979 bit. From 1990 to right before the split when was there EVER a cross word spoken about the "stuff all the way back to 1979"? Without a doubt there will be some venom that would linger about the split, but over time even that will fade. And to be honest, I think 99.99% of that will be reserved for "...king George" himself. I know I harbor no ill will over the split with any of the teams, owners or drivers. I also know that that sentiment is NOT shared by all the folks who lined up on the CART side of the split.

Gary

At another location I heard it stated directly that "the whole idea..." of a certain form of...'logic'...they were using...was "...to get Indycar racing back to being the supreme class of midget and sprint car racing." The logic in question involved the abolition of the wings, rear-engined cars in entirety, and several other "purifications" they apparently "demanded" if they were going to stay interested in open-wheel.

Off and on in these sorts of discussions, mention was regularly made to "Dan Gurney and the other cronies," and their presentation of the White Paper to USAC as destroying what they felt to be what was good in American open-wheel racing. I.e., the establishment of CART being, for them, something they sought the negation of, henceforth from that moment. These people furthermore had apparently come to believe that Tony George had betrayed "the vision" of American open-wheel racing "by Americans, and FOR Americans" (...only?) in favor of more internationalist ("derned feriner"), CARTish views.

The irrational individuals in question do exist, I have exchanged messages with them on forums such as this.

In completely other news, some of us favor an exact 50/50 split between road/street courses and ovals in any theoretical united series, so as to work against either side feeling short-changed...just with the proviso that they aren't boa-constrictive and heinous to drive a race car on, like Belle Isle.

[nigelred5]

Why not divest oneself of a venture that is losing money? I think the consensus is pretty universal, no matter if you hate/love either side, that the "Amigos" keep everything afloat via deep pockets.

EDIT: And on the other front, via nanders... If they just flat merge, straight out, potential future fans are going to have a world of fun trying to get past the venom and hate people would be screaming at each other, from stuff all the way back to 1979, nevermind just 1996.

Hail far son, that's the perfect set up of an US vs Them battle! :thumbsup:

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="Wraith"]
The irrational individuals in question do exist, I have exchanged messages with them on forums such as this.
QUOTE]
Irrational as compared to whom or what?

[Wraith]

The irrational individuals in question do exist, I have exchanged messages with them on forums such as this.
QUOTE]
Irrational as compared to whom or what?

"***!!!!!@#!#!!!!! If the price of American open-wheel continuing is for it to exist under HIS leadership, then I'd rather see everything parked, no more open-wheel in America, anywhere AT ALL, and then the Master Control Tower blown to smitherines, just to show my hate of IMS!! WHAT?!!? It's called the Bombardy-something PAGODA now?! ***!!!!#!@!!!!"

Irrational individual.
Elsewhere:

"The only race that matters AT ALL is the Indianapolis 500! REAL racing once had men man-handling cast-iron chariots around on dirt circles, and tires driving up over each other in mad dash to win! Now'days, the damned Europeons got these upside-down airplane contraptions everywhere, and I HATE't!! If they ain't dirt trackin' or runnin' on da bricks, they ain't worth ****!!"

Irrational individual.
...at least, to those of us who love Indianapolis, dirt track racing, street racing, road racing, karting, NHRA drag racing, and anything else with machines specifically designed to go as fast as the engineers can get them to go.

[sanguin]

Originally Posted by
Originally Posted by heelntoe
Time will tell as far as the settlement in this case if there is one, but as usual, you do not accept the completely incorrect angle to guilt...it is not a grey area! As to what it has to do with the CCWS series, only time will tell...personally, I think KK has already decided to close up shop and NHL's departure will finalize that closing. As far as IMG. CCWS is likely to lose that race by all that is known today and again, we'll wait and see. Again, I'm pretty comfortable with the 60 day timeframe I laid down.

Originally Posted by
heelntoe


Status: Online
Posts: 304
Join Date: Oct 2005

Originally Posted by
4th Oct 07, 11:06
Originally Posted by sanguin
In your opinion.

CC can wait to see how the cash outlay works for the other series.That will be very telling. I don't think CC has anything to worry about. IMO

CC Cannot wait another year...it can't wait another 60 days without proving to its teams, sponsors and venues that it has the money to do so.

Originally Posted by sanguin
Here it is, 60 days from Oct. 4. It's on.

Remember this-

"We can only conclude that these rumors are being started by someone with malicious intent."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63049


30 days and counting on this prediction.

Well here we are, 60 days later. Another prediction by an "insider" proved false.

:rolleyes:

[heelntoe]

Well here we are, 60 days later. Another prediction by an "insider" proved false.

:rolleyes:

Sanguin, as i posted some time back, I have no problem eating crow for incorrect predictions...mine is best with port wine reduction :) However, unless you're one of the amigos, any insider, in my case, a former insider dating back a few years, can be as wrong as anyone else. I must also state that I cannot, for the life of me, see why KK's continuing to finance CCWS with so many hurdles to clear. The recent sponsor mess with Steeback and Pay-By-Touch are indicative of these hurdles...both situations were not the fault of CCWS, but when you can't interest major sponsorship, you pretty much have to accept what you can get. Taking the series abroad for so many races will only make the sponsor component harder for both the series and the teams. Lastly, I still think PN's done and will announce his retirement...i'll again be happy to eat crow if I'm wrong.

[sanguin]

A good read-

http://www.canada.com/saskatoonstarphoenix/news/sports/story.html?id=f6a0f77a-3ef0-465b-ac2e-bb89bd31f426

PN doesn't do any heavy lifting sponsoring a team. I don't think you could keep him away from the track if you tried. It's all pleasure for him.

I don't think anything CC is experiencing is as bad as a sponsor suing to get out of a series.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Sanguin, as i posted some time back, I have no problem eating crow for incorrect predictions...mine is best with port wine reduction :) However, unless you're one of the amigos, any insider, in my case, a former insider dating back a few years, can be as wrong as anyone else. I must also state that I cannot, for the life of me, see why KK's continuing to finance CCWS with so many hurdles to clear. The recent sponsor mess with Steeback and Pay-By-Touch are indicative of these hurdles...both situations were not the fault of CCWS, but when you can't interest major sponsorship, you pretty much have to accept what you can get. Taking the series abroad for so many races will only make the sponsor component harder for both the series and the teams. Lastly, I still think PN's done and will announce his retirement...i'll again be happy to eat crow if I'm wrong.

Maybe, just maybe, KK likes the challenge involved in CC.

[heelntoe]

Maybe, just maybe, KK likes the challenge involved in CC.

Pat, I don't know a single successful business man or turn around guy that would shy away from a challenge, do you? So goes the saying "if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it". However, KK, when he announced his 5 year plan, truly believed he'd achieve it in three. Today, it is no closer than it was in 2003 despite the total spend he has to date...in fact, most balanced business men in racing would say they are worse off as they don't have a direction that has reflected two years consistent of anything. There comes a point where even a man accepting a challenge sees that good money going down the hole is a losing proposition...clearly he wouldn't be the first to accept this in professional motorsports.

But let's turn this back to what the Doc wrote about in the beginning...in your opinion, What's Next for CCWS in actually securing sponsors and reaching a self sustaining business plan?

[Jag_Warrior]

Odd, I don't recall the intricate details of the oft-mentioned 5 Year Plan ever being made public.

As a fan, no, I'm not satisfied with where the series is now. But when it comes to the business of Champ Car, I think it's becoming (increasingly) clear that no one here has any amount of reliable data on where the series stands financially. There tends to be more flighty speculation here (on both sides) than on the average penny stock message board.

[indycool]

I'm not convinced if a five-year plan existed, it didn't change several times.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

I'm not convinced if a five-year plan existed, it didn't change several times.

That "changing" is common practice in business and is considered "good business"..

[indycool]

Oh.

[weeflyonthewall]

That "changing" is common practice in business and is considered "good business"..

Some people just don't get it. They'd rather see plans cast in stone with no changes at all.

[ShiftingGears]

That "changing" is common practice in business and is considered "good business"..

It's worked wonders hasn't it?

[pvtjoker]

It's worked wonders hasn't it?

Yep...wonders. I wonder what 2008 will be like. Then again, at least there will be a 2008 season, so all is not lost.

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, wait a minute... I thought there wasn't going to be a 2008 season?! I guess like this 5 Year Plan, the consensus at ***** changes from time to time as well. :D

[ClarkFan]

That "changing" is common practice in business and is considered "good business"..

Although, in this case it is pretty difficult to distinguish from "wandering aimlessly."

:\

ClarkFan

[Chaparral66]

All business plans are fluid. The economy and environment change from year to year so it has to be able to adjust to the prevailing conditions...

[nanders]

what's the CrackForum ?

[Nethead]

The irrational individuals in question do exist, I have exchanged messages with them on forums such as this.
QUOTE]
Irrational as compared to whom or what?

Bob Riebe: Bob! Dude! The Nethead here has missed your impeccably informed postings so much since the demise of the old AutoWeek forums that I had to google you up and see how you're doin'! You last posted here at the end of November, so I hope you'll read this response soon and post a reply!

Either update me here, or name the thread in this forum in which you will post an update. I will reply in kind. I gotta give another presentation in twelve minutes :dozey: so I can't linger. In the meantime, I hope all is well with you, your family, and your co-workers!

The Nethead here :s mokin:

[ChaimWitz]

This sounds familiar. Are two 2008 races in trouble already?

From the AR1 Rumors page:

"Champ Car schedule to reduce to 12 races?
A reader writes, Dear AutoRacing1.com I have been following the problems with Champ Car this past season and I trust nothing that the ownership and management says without external confirmation of what they claim. With Champ Car recent 2007 cancellations and mind, I recently read the item in your news section about the FIA World Motorsports Council approving the 2008 Champ Car schedule with suspicion. I later checked with the Champ Car World Series web site and saw that they had their full fourteen race 2008 schedule up. Being still untrusting of this, I then went to the FIA site and looked into the calendars section. I found the attached PDF dated today that shows only 12 approved races. I do not see Zolder or Jerez listed. This does not surprise me. From what I have been told by several people I know inside the industry, both races had serious issues that needed resolution and that was unlikely unless the CCWS owners wrote yet another big large check. Apparently that has not happened. It seems like Champ Car has not learned from the disasters of 2007. Buddy Jobe

Dear Buddy, A Champ Car spokesperson told AutoRacing1.com that "Yes, the FIA requested some additional minor information, but that is just a formality and we fully expect the two races in question to get final FIA approval soon." Mark C."

[nanders]

Wasn't Buddy Jobe once the owner of Phoenix International Raceway? It's unlikely he would start a baseless rumor.

[ChaimWitz]

I have been reading this forum while watching events in Champ Car and the Indy Car Series for the past few months without comment. However, the underwhelming Champ Car TV schedule announcement this week coupled with today's news of Rafa Matos going to the Indy Pro Series and Tony Cotman calling it quits brings me back to the question that started this thread:

What happens next?

Do Rafa and Tony both know something we don't?

If you are still positive about Champ Car and want to take on the challenge, please do lay out how you think Champ Car will survive and prosper despite all of the negatives of the past year. If you take this on, also spare us the "Honda-is-leaving-the-IRL-and-TG-will-be-forced-to-the-table" scenario. Just share with us what it is that Champ Car can REALISTICALLY do to gain momentum, presence and commercial traction — without a pipe dream $50 million advertising and marketing spending spree by the CCWS owners.

[Chaparral66]

I have been reading this forum while watching events in Champ Car and the Indy Car Series for the past few months without comment. However, the underwhelming Champ Car TV schedule announcement this week coupled with today's news of Rafa Matos going to the Indy Pro Series and Tony Cotman calling it quits brings me back to the question that started this thread:

What happens next?

Do Rafa and Tony both know something we don't?

If you are still positive about Champ Car and want to take on the challenge, please do lay out how you think Champ Car will survive and prosper despite all of the negatives of the past year. If you take this on, also spare us the "Honda-is-leaving-the-IRL-and-TG-will-be-forced-to-the-table" scenario. Just share with us what it is that Champ Car can REALISTICALLY do to gain momentum, presence and commercial traction — without a pipe dream $50 million advertising and marketing spending spree by the CCWS owners.

I'll be honest with you, Tony Cotman's suddent departure came as a punch in the stomach. Cotman was the one undeniable home run of a Champ Car decision the last few years. He straightened out the chaos of the offciating and race direction and made an efficient unit. It's hard to be positive after this, Matos, and the TV deal (I'm still studying that), but I'm trying to hang in there. The Amigos continue to test our loyalty...

[ChaimWitz]

I'll be honest with you, Tony Cotman's suddent departure came as a punch in the stomach. Cotman was the one undeniable home run of a Champ Car decision the last few years. He straightened out the chaos of the offciating and race direction and made an efficient unit. It's hard to be positive after this, Matos, and the TV deal (I'm still studying that), but I'm trying to hang in there. The Amigos continue to test our loyalty...

Tony Cotman is great guy and a straight shooter. From what I have seen, he was the backbone of the company. Without him, I believe that the dominos will fall badly. It all comes down to an intuitive ability to communicate confidence and credibility. He has that gift and sadly, this is what the majority of Champ Car's staff lacks. Please forgive me, but maturity and experience lead me to not believe any of them when they try to spin me. Why? Because they look and sound like they don't believe themselves. Who can blame them? Results start with the attitude at the top and actions always speak louder than words so what happens next will tell the tale of the good ship Champtannic. The paddock buzz suggests that the Amigos aren't actually amigos at all and from what I continue to observe, they don't seem to really care all that much about their staff, their drivers, their teams, their promoters, their partners and most importantly, their fans. How can anyone run a successful business by behaving like this? I suspect that is the same conclusion that TC and Rafa reached over the past few weeks.

[ChaimWitz]

Gordon Kiby posted the following letter from a fan named Jim Strong on his web site today (gordonkirby.com) and I believe that it speaks for many of us who are simply tired of the stupidity that sees the split continuing into its 13 year. After reading the rumor that Tony Cotman is headed to the IRL and looking at the state of both series I can't help but once again wonder "what happens next?:

Ladies & gentlemen:
As a fan of American open-wheel racing, I have to say that enough is enough. Both sides of the divide have worked so hard to drive the sport that I love so far into the dirt to make it almost unrecognizable in regards to what it once was. People I know who were once true fans of open-wheel racing have either left for the greener pastures of NASCAR, or no longer watch or care about racing at all. This is mostly because both series fail to hold a candle to CART in its heyday.

CART became my favorite series because, in my opinion, it was really the greatest driver's championship in the world. I know there are/were many who were also of that same opinion.

I started out as a drag racing fan attending races at Irwindale Raceway, but loved to take in everything: Sprint cars at Ascot Park, Local hardtops at speedway 605, NASCAR at Riverside. I have camped out on many occasions in turn four at Ontario Motor Speedway to watch both Champcars and NASCAR, and have even done so at Fontana. I have gone out to support Vintage Club Racing and I have stood at the top of Laguna Seca to watch Champcars plunge through the corkscrew. I have even dragged myself out of bed at 4:00am to cheer on Eddie Cheever, Michael Andretti and Scott Speed as they raced against some of the best drivers and teams in the world. I have been to the Test In The West at Fontana and Spring Training at Laguna Seca. I attend open testing at Fontana when Champcar comes around. My point here is this: 1. I've been around for quite awhile, and I'm not a Johnny-come-lately to motorsports, and 2. Even though I love a wide variety of racing, nothing captured my heart and imagination like CART.

Tell me, what was there not to love about a series that included Super Speedways, Short Ovals (Not to mention a tri-oval and even a Roval), Natural Road Courses and Street Circuits? There were several different Chassis and several different engines. It was the most unique series in the world and by the account of many, the greatest series in the world. A series so great, that the reigning world champion left F1 to run CART rather than defend his title. Additionally, CART was a series that drew drivers from all over the world. And there were still plenty of Americans running the series.

I realize that CART had its problems. The original concept was to mimic what other pro sports were doing, where the teams would run the sport. It was an attempt to save the sport from USAC, and rightly so. But in other pro sports, the big teams in big markets have to look out for the interests of small teams in smaller markets. The CART board had members who were self-serving jerks who only wanted to "dominate" instead of looking after the little guys and really nurturing and growing the sport. You know who you are. If you don't know who you are, call up Dale Coyne. I'm sure he would be glad to explain it to you. But none of this is news to any of you. You already know all of this. I am rehashing this merely to make a later point.

Since the split, both sides have worked tirelessly to take something really great and reduce it to near ashes. Both sides have a complete disregard for the people that are supposed to matter: the FANS! Tony George, I once read a quote by you where you stated that "The people I talk to don't care about street racing." I'm sure that was true if the people that you were talking to were USAC officials. The fans that I have spoken to are still mourning the day you announced the IRL (I have spoken to many fans who will not watch or have anything to do with the IRL on principle alone.) Since then, the IRL has gone from horrible to merely being bad, but only after abandoning everything that the IRL set out to do in its original mission statement and now resembles "CART lite." CART has gone from great to lame. All of this is at the expense of those who buy the tickets. Both sides have created something so far removed from what the fans really crave, it's a wonder anyone shows up at all. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, listen to what I am saying. I am begging you to create something brilliant and to stop wallowing in mediocrity.

What do the fans really want? One series. One really great series. This is not something I am just making up. I have spoken to many fans, read message boards and blogs, and have attended fan forums. This is not just the wish of the fans. I have spoken to many journalists, drivers and team owners. Even Champcar ownership has lamented that there are two series. How is it possible that the fans, the journalists, the drivers, and the team and series ownership, the manufacturers and sponsors all want the same thing, but no one is able to make it happen? In a free market economy, when there is a need, someone jumps in to fill that need and is generally successful. This mess makes absolutely no sense. Everyone wants the same thing, and yet, for some bizarre reason we keep doing the opposite. Isn't that one definition of insanity? To keep doing the same thing and expect different results?

So, here is what I am proposing: either the series owners make it happen by 2010, or the team owners form CART II. Someone has to save this mess. CART was originally formed to save the sport from USAC. It could work this time, because now 20/20 hindsight exists. CART would not be destined to make the same mistakes. Look out for the little guys. Limit testing. Allow SOME development. Invite the manufacturers back. Invite the constructors back. Don't let them (manufacturers, constructors) give parts to some teams and not others. Keep costs in check. Restore the Indy 500 to greatness. Jeez, you're all smart guys, figure it out.

As a fan, and from what I know from talking to other fans, this is what we would like to see: Keep the Vanderbilt Cup, The Nations Cup, re-instate the manufacturers and constructors championships. 28 cars on the grid on race day. 33 cars at Indy. 20 races per season. Call it the Indycar World Series. The venues should include ovals, road and street courses.

Continue to part 2 in next post:

[ChaimWitz]

Part 2 of Jim Strong's open letter:


Here is my dream schedule:
Ovals would make up about a third of the season: Indy, California Speedway, Michigan (these three races would form the "triple crown." Win all three in a season, get a million dollar bonus. How about it Firestone?) Twin-Ring Motegi (This new series would really need to include Honda, since both series owe Honda a debt of gratitude, and in the case of CART/Champcar, an apology.) the Milwaukee Mile (because everyone goes to Milwaukee after Indy) Phoenix and Rockingham (Because England serves the purpose of a European date and it is the home of many manufacturers as well as several drivers.) You will notice the absence of Texas. We want the cars to be too fast to run on high banks. Please make the cars fast again.

The Road Courses would make up about a third also: Road America (while I have never been, I hear its something to see in person. Anyway this track looks really good on TV.) Laguna Seca, Circuit Gilles Villeneuve, Watkins Glen, Portland, Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez. (If you don't like the idea of Rockingham, how about Brands Hatch?)

Lastly, the street circuits: Long Beach, Houston, St. Pete, Surfer's Paradise (Australia is really stepping up to the plate) Detroit (set for a great comeback, hopefully, in the spiritual home of the American automotive industry) Cleveland, and Toronto.

The cars should look good and be pretty cutting edge. Let's get one thing straight. Spec series are for lower forms of racing, not what should be the pinnacle of American Motorsports. Whether by design, or de facto, spec is NOT the way to go. We want innovation and variety. This includes not only chassis, but probably even more important, engines. Look, American motorsport is often based on manufacturer rivalry. Doesn't everyone grow up on one side or the other of the Chevy vs. Ford debate? I know I did, just like many others. Let's see several manufacturers get involved. Make it interesting and they will come. It has worked for the American Le Mans Series.

Now, I will propose a very radical idea. Open it up to turbo diesel. Not just diesel, but bio-diesel. Create a very green series. What Audi has done in American Le Mans is excellent, but imagine if the cars ran on bio-diesel! This is so relevant to a country bent on weaning itself off petroleum.

As for chassis design, the IRL cars are flat out ugly. Sorry, but it's the truth. The Panoz is better, but seems to lack sponsor space. I'm sure you can come up with a format that would allow several manufacturers to design various versions that would be competitive and cost efficient. It should allow for close racing on any track, be serviceable and include on-board starters (a great idea that obviously needs some fine tuning since we never got to see it work).

As for the rules of competition, quit it with the manufactured excitement. The push to pass never created any drama. The "red" tires are an OK idea, but not any real drama either. How about this, have each team pick one type, either reds or regulars and run them the whole weekend. Now that would be interesting.

More local yellows. Please. No, Really. Especially at road courses. Keep the standing starts where you can, it adds to the variety of the sport, and thus makes for one more discipline to master.

Television Package: Races on ABC, Pre-race and qualifying on ESPN (with the exception of Indy) and Lifestyle shows on ESPN2.

As for the ladder series, keep Atlantics, and turn the IPS into something akin to GP2. Below Atlantics, Formula BMW and below that, Easycart. Total perfection. Have a scholarship for each series champion to take the next step.

Please make this happen for the sake of all of us. One series is the only thing that will get the regular media to take notice of American Open-Wheel racing again. Let's stop the madness, and return to greatness. Let common sense prevail.

Sincerely,
Jim Strong, Azusa, CA

[tbyars]

This solves nothing. Nothing short of an ovalcentric series will be acceptable for the owner of the Indy 500. He made that clear 13 years ago, and it is just as clear today. This is nothing more than the framework of the next AOWR split, and is an attempt by an obvious CART/CCWS fan to try and save that series. Very transparent.

By 2010, I believe the solution will be more than obvious. And, considering the current state of affairs, this is ANYTHING but common sense.

[sanguin]

This solves nothing. Nothing short of an ovalcentric series will be acceptable for the owner of the Indy 500. He made that clear 13 years ago, and it is just as clear today. This is nothing more than the framework of the next AOWR split, and is an attempt by an obvious CART/CCWS fan to try and save that series. Very transparent.

By 2010, I believe the solution will be more than obvious. And, considering the current state of affairs, this is ANYTHING but common sense.

As opposed to a post by a IRL fan, what's the point?

Nobody wants an ovalcentric series.

[ChaimWitz]

As opposed to a post by a IRL fan, what's the point?

Nobody wants an ovalcentric series.

Hmmm, If "nobody wants an ovalcentric series" how did we all get to the current state of open wheel racing? Some people obviously do want it that way and it is also clear that some don't. You don't nor do the rest of your friends on CCF. On the flip side, some feel a 50/50 mix is best with the defining event being a 2.5 mile oval in Indianapolis as the centerpiece. You don't see it that way so we will all likely find out which view makes more sense. The market will decide regardless and the market seems to be voting "no" on ChampCar's ever-changing format.

[sanguin]

Hmmm, If "nobody wants an ovalcentric series" how did we all get to the current state of open wheel racing? Some people obviously do want it that way and it is also clear that some don't. You don't nor do the rest of your friends on CCF. On the flip side, some feel a 50/50 mix is best with the defining event being a 2.5 mile oval in Indianapolis as the centerpiece. You don't see it that way so we will all likely find out which view makes more sense. The market will decide regardless and the market seems to be voting "no" on ChampCar's ever-changing format.

Who said it would be 50/50,ovalcentric doesn't mean that. With the owner of IMS in charge without fetters, he could run amok without being fired or stopped. Getting rid of events that don't suit him or his business by making unreasonable demands and then dropping them saying its they're fault. We've seen that already.

See you at Long Beach :D

Haven't gone to Indy since 1995.