Massa Over Kimi [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

jens

27th August 2007, 13:05

IMO Räikkönen had the edge only in Hungary. Otherwise they have been quite evenly matched and can't find anything surprising in that tight battle. :)

I really think the time has run out for excuses for Kimi.

Well, I've noticed that the same phrase has been used after almost each race, but it looks like there is still plenty of room for excuses. :p :

wroom

27th August 2007, 13:18

I really think the time has run out for excuses for Kimi. I wish a certain German driver was still in F1 to prove how overrated Kimi really is, but Massa is doing a fine job of that himself :)

Is it only me, but I do vividly remember a certain German driver fighting very hard and long against Kimi who was driving in an inferior car. Certainly didn't look like a cruise in the park to me.. In my personal opinion, that certain German driver had ample opportunities to prove how overrated Kimi was and all it did was raise Kimi's rating.

Yes, Kimi has made more mistakes than has been expected this season, Massa has shown he's a better driver than most expected and McLaren have suddenly stopped their car from falling to pieces all the time. But its hardly reason enough to write off Kimi yet.

-wroom

Valve Bounce

27th August 2007, 13:58

Who would have bet that with only 5 races to go, Massa would be ahead of Kimi by 1 point :?:

I really think the time has run out for excuses for Kimi. I wish a certain German driver was still in F1 to prove how overrated Kimi really is, but Massa is doing a fine job of that himself :)

Gee!! the guy made a mistake in his last hot lap in Q3. He is fast, but he is not God. He doesn't have the power to tell the Todt to instruct his team mate to pull over, or have you forgotten that?

Drew

27th August 2007, 18:34

Just 1 point is meant to prove how overrated Kimi is?

7 podium finishes and 3 wins, just what do you have to do to prove yourself?!

GP-M3

27th August 2007, 18:48

I think Kimi is doing a very good job overall this season, especially since France where he seams to have pulled it together.

Only thing left for him is qualifying... he needs to up his game a bit there... otherwise he has been doing fine, and has a great attitude.

Plus I believe he has been the fastest of all as late. It seems to me that Massa can only win from pole and when he is out front the whole race. Then he is almost impossible to beat and hardly makes a mistake. But if you listen carefully to what these guys have been saying, it is very hard to follow another car, and Kimi has done that very well of late, and no one else has been able to stay with the car in front at all, except Kimi.

So, his poor start to the season (after Oz) and the poor reliablily throughout have really caught him out. But he seems the fastest guy on the track to me, and is most deserving of WDC in the near future.

Jimmy Magnusson

27th August 2007, 18:53

Well, I've noticed that the same phrase has been used after almost each race, but it looks like there is still plenty of room for excuses. :p :

Been used since about 2004 I reckon! Really strecthing that last excuse.

jens

27th August 2007, 20:01

Just 1 point is meant to prove how overrated Kimi is?

7 podium finishes and 3 wins, just what do you have to do to prove yourself?!

Considering that before the season Räikkönen was expected to have an overwhelming advantage over Massa, then I guess this shows that he hasn't proved to be as great as expected.

Eki

27th August 2007, 21:00

Considering that before the season Räikkönen was expected to have an overwhelming advantage over Massa, then I guess this shows that he hasn't proved to be as great as expected.
The same could be said about Alonso, a 2 times WDC,. Unlike Kimi, Massa has several years with Ferrari. Wait until the next year before you make any conclusions.

wmcot

27th August 2007, 21:18

Considering that before the season Räikkönen was expected to have an overwhelming advantage over Massa, then I guess this shows that he hasn't proved to be as great as expected.

Or that Massa is better than expected!

Drew

27th August 2007, 21:27

The same could be said about Alonso, a 2 times WDC,. Unlike Kimi, Massa has several years with Ferrari. Wait until the next year before you make any conclusions.

:up:

What I was pretty much going to say :)

ioan

27th August 2007, 23:21

Or that Massa is better than expected!

No that can't be! :p :

BTW anyone else who saw how red (livid) Kimi's face was after the race?!

Valve Bounce

28th August 2007, 00:56

No that can't be! :p :

BTW anyone else who saw how red (livid) Kimi's face was after the race?!

I understood it was a very hot day, with the track temp around 59 degrees. It's a wonder these guys could stand up after the race. I used to get dreadful migraine headaches when I was working in this type of heat. :(

Hondo

28th August 2007, 07:12

Massa has proved that he can win, when starting from the pole position but he seems to lack something in traffic. I like Massa and Kimi but if my last name was Todt and was out for the Constructor's, I would have more confidence in Kimi's ability to defend 2nd place against all comers over Massa's ability to do the same. I believe Alonso and maybe Hamilton could find a way around Massa and Ferrari needs solid 1-2 finishes.

wmcot

28th August 2007, 07:35

I like Kimi and would rather see him be WDC than Felipe (only slightly if I HAD to choose) but I still didn't see anything wrong with the strategy used. I would expect the same strategy if it was Kimi leading in the race.

jens

28th August 2007, 08:10

The same could be said about Alonso, a 2 times WDC,. Unlike Kimi, Massa has several years with Ferrari. Wait until the next year before you make any conclusions.

Of course! Before the season Alonso and Räikkönen were the most overrated drivers, but I remember several people reacting with disbelief (a'la "it's proved no-one else can match them"), when those two were mentioned as overrated! I see that several people still haven't quite got over that "FA and KR are overwhelmingly the two best drivers on the grid" that was often announced before the season. Hence the excuses and phrases "wait for the next year". I tell that half of the current grid consists of top drivers (you may guess, which ones belong there), not just 2-3 drivers. ;) I have never quite understood, why FA and KR have often been given an image of an "unbeatable heroic superman".

P.S. It's funny that we have 3 threads discussing about the battle of FM and KR. :p :

DexDexter

28th August 2007, 16:35

Who would have bet that with only 5 races to go, Massa would be ahead of Kimi by 1 point :?:

I really think the time has run out for excuses for Kimi. I wish a certain German driver was still in F1 to prove how overrated Kimi really is, but Massa is doing a fine job of that himself :)

That same German driver was beaten many times by a certain Finnish driver who cannot even win in the DTM, so what does that tell you? Overrated?

Firstgear

28th August 2007, 16:53

I believe Alonso and maybe Hamilton could find a way around Massa and Ferrari needs solid 1-2 finishes.

Are you suggesting that Ferrari wouldn't let Kimi past Massa because Massa would've been too easy for one of the Macs to pass?

I find that hard to believe, but I suppose there's a possibility.

Big Ben

28th August 2007, 20:18

Massa has ridiculed KIMI so far... I mean... leading by 1 point... that´s really something

kalasend

28th August 2007, 21:10

Are you suggesting that Ferrari wouldn't let Kimi past Massa because Massa would've been too easy for one of the Macs to pass?

I find that hard to believe, but I suppose there's a possibility.

In what situation do you think Todt would chew more of his fingers?
A. 1st: KR, 2nd: FM, 3rd: a McLaren
B. 1st: FM, 2nd: KR, 3rd: a McLaren

ioan

28th August 2007, 21:52

There is no difference.

Ranger

29th August 2007, 07:00

BTW anyone else who saw how red (livid) Kimi's face was after the race?!

Race = hot.

You should know that ice-men are sensitive to heat! :p :

Juppe

29th August 2007, 07:41

No that can't be! :p :

BTW anyone else who saw how red (livid) Kimi's face was after the race?!

It is always like that.

Kimi's skin is very pale without almost any pigmentation whatsoever and he flushes very easily. So almost always he takes his helmet off, he is very red.

This should not be confused with exhaustion, because Kimi has always been able to cope with hot races without losing his focus towards the end of the race (as quite nicely pointed out by his fastest lap in the end).

Interestingly, this not a case with Lewis for example, because McLaren doctor said that he has been working hard with Lewis to get him last through hot races, because Lewis sweats a lot and loses a lot of weight during the hot races. He pointed out that Lewis' metabolism was completely different from Alonso's who loses body weight only a little.

ioan

29th August 2007, 08:44

I never paid attention to that before, but this time in comparison to Felipe and Fernando, Kimi's face was quite colorful.

Firstgear

29th August 2007, 15:47

In what situation do you think Todt would chew more of his fingers?
A. 1st: KR, 2nd: FM, 3rd: a McLaren
B. 1st: FM, 2nd: KR, 3rd: a McLaren

After what Lewis was able to do to Massa earlier this season, I think team Ferrari would be much more nervous with Massa behind Kimi. But I still find it hard to believe they would keep him behind for this reason. What I find even harder to believe is that Kimi would put up with being Massa's rear gunner. Especially if their points totals are so close. If Massa was ahead of Kimi by about 15 points I could see it though.

NoFender

29th August 2007, 18:21

Who would have bet that with only 5 races to go, Massa would be ahead of Kimi by 1 point :?:

I really think the time has run out for excuses for Kimi. I wish a certain German driver was still in F1 to prove how overrated Kimi really is, but Massa is doing a fine job of that himself :)

Pretty easy to say since Massa has been with Ferrari longer than Kimi. He's only behind his teammate by 1 point. He's had some bad luck re:failures as well. He's done a great job.

janneppi

29th August 2007, 18:47

I hope you guys don't mind, i moved the sauna discussion to Chit Chat, to be honest it didn't really belong here. :)

Trqster

29th August 2007, 18:49

Who honestly thinks that Michael Schumacher in Massa's place wouldn't do a better job this year?
Therefore....

ioan

29th August 2007, 20:32

Who honestly thinks that Michael Schumacher in Massa's place wouldn't do a better job this year?
Therefore....

MS is in a completely different class than what we have this season. He was always up there no matter the car for over 16 seasons.
Any comparison is useless!

f1rocks

30th August 2007, 01:00

MS is in a completely different class than what we have this season. He was always up there no matter the car for over 16 seasons.
Any comparison is useless!

MS would have been leading the WDC easily in the F2007. Kimi, Alonso and Massa are nowhere close to what MS did in his career over 16 seasons no matter what the car was..

Timber

30th August 2007, 01:37

MS would have been leading the WDC easily in the F2007. Kimi, Alonso and Massa are nowhere close to what MS did in his career over 16 seasons no matter what the car was..

As i recall Alonso won the WC for 2 year when MS was still running .
I am sorry i forgot that Alonso only won because he was lucky or his car was faster ... i remember him spanking MS quite a few times . Not to change the subject but today in practice in Italy both Alonso and LH were using the same car , i guess Alonso was the fastest , lucky again . :eek:

wmcot

30th August 2007, 01:53

What I find even harder to believe is that Kimi would put up with being Massa's rear gunner.

But as even Kimi admits, overtaking is nearly impossible (unless you have a significant car advantage.) That's why we never see leaders swapping places anymore.

leopard

30th August 2007, 03:19

Massa has ridiculed KIMI so far... I mean... leading by 1 point... that´s really something
heheh Kimi was trying to get closer to Massa, no scene that team was forbidding him to race against Massa. If the strategy favored Massa, Kimi shouldn't push Massa that hard and preferably he was to maintain 1-2 position and make some blocking to McLaren boys.

leopard

30th August 2007, 03:53

Else, the prolonged domination of Schumi because there weren't any driver closing to quality of Schumi, or if any they weren't driving for quality car closing to Ferrari. ;)

ArrowsFA1

30th August 2007, 08:44

He was always up there no matter the car for over 16 seasons.
Stangely enough I was re-watching the 2005 F1 review last night and MS was far from being "up there" particularly in the early stages of the year. Certainly he had the ability to make more of a poor car than most, but even he could only manage one win, and that was at the US 'Tyre' GP.

Chances are MS might be doing better than the current drivers this year if he hadn't retired but 1) he has retired :p and 2) he had years of experience working with Ferrari with the team being fully behind him, experience that Kimi doesn't yet have.

A new team/driver relationship takes time to gel, and since the French GP there have been signs that Kimi is settling in nicely. He's outscored Felipe 36pts to 30 in that time, and but for a mistake in Turkey Q3 that margin would probably have been bigger still.

If both Ferraris are reliable for the remaining races of the year then I'd pick Kimi to finish ahead of Massa in the WDC.

ioan

30th August 2007, 11:49

Stangely enough I was re-watching the 2005 F1 review last night and MS was far from being "up there" particularly in the early stages of the year. Certainly he had the ability to make more of a poor car than most, but even he could only manage one win, and that was at the US 'Tyre' GP.

No one said he won every time during 16 years! As for 2005 he was 3rd in the championship after beating one Renault and one McLaren driver, who were driving superior machines! ;)
Not to mention how he was pressuring FA in Imola and KR in Canada!

Obviously he wasn't up there in 2005,even with that car! :rolleyes:

A new team/driver relationship takes time to gel, and since the French GP there have been signs that Kimi is settling in nicely. He's outscored Felipe 36pts to 30 in that time, and but for a mistake in Turkey Q3 that margin would probably have been bigger still.

What if the team wouldn't have made a mockery of Felipe's qualifying in Budapest? It would have been 36-36 in that period of time! :p :

Juppe

30th August 2007, 11:54

What if the team wouldn't have made a mockery of Felipe's qualifying in Budapest? It would have been 36-36 in that period of time! :p :

European GP

ArrowsFA1

30th August 2007, 12:04

Obviously he wasn't up there in 2005,even with that car! :rolleyes:
That's funny, I thought you said "he was always up there no matter the car". Ah well... :dozey:

What if, what if, what if...What if Kimi hadn't scored any points? Felipe would be miles ahead of him in that case :p :D

janneppi

30th August 2007, 12:11

No one said he won every time during 16 years! As for 2005 he was 3rd in the championship after beating one Renault and one McLaren driver, who were driving superior machines! ;)
Not to mention how he was pressuring FA in Imola and KR in Canada!

Obviously he wasn't up there in 2005,even with that car! :rolleyes:
Not really, no
He was just a head of Monty, who was eating burgers in the pits during half the season and Fisi , the softer Renault compound, all of this with US GP points.
If you take that out, he would be sixth, behind his brother, with an average race finish position of fifth.
;)

What if the team wouldn't have made a mockery of Felipe's qualifying in Budapest? It would have been 36-36 in that period of time! :p :Or If Massa would have have gotten good enough time in the first place. ;)

555-04Q2

30th August 2007, 13:08

People are missing the point of this thread. Kimi is supposed to be the fastest driver in F1 and he was going to beat either MS or FM when he arrived at Ferrari. Everyone including the people in F1 predicted it. I was one of the people who had a good laugh when I heard the comments. Well he's here now and not creating any fireworks at all. He has had 6 to 7 seasons in F1 with top teams (Mclaren & Ferrari) with nothing to show except a dozen wins and a few poles.

When does the term overated finally sink in :?: After 15 years :?: :laugh:

ArrowsFA1

30th August 2007, 13:14

He has had 6 to 7 seasons in F1 with top teams (Mclaren & Ferrari) with nothing to show except a dozen wins and a few poles.
Blimey :eek: If that's the criteria for overrated what does it say about some of the other drivers on the grid ;)

janneppi

30th August 2007, 13:14

It was easy to underestimate Massa, with the amount of work he had to do to MS in GP's and his often compromised race tactics. Kimi has indeed suffered in the beginning of this season, but he has been quite fast once he got to grips with the car and setups.

ioan

30th August 2007, 14:21

That's funny, I thought you said "he was always up there no matter the car". Ah well... :dozey:

Obviously I will have to give some more hints for sarcastic posting when answering your posts in the future. :p :

What if, what if, what if...What if Kimi hadn't scored any points? Felipe would be miles ahead of him in that case :p :D

I wonder who posted this in first place:

...and but for a mistake in Turkey Q3 that margin would probably have been bigger still.
Maybe it was a certain ArrowsFA1? :rolleyes:

When you start the IFs at least have the decency to accept other members IFs too. How does that sound?!

ioan

30th August 2007, 14:23

Blimey :eek: If that's the criteria for overrated what does it say about some of the other drivers on the grid ;)

It's the exact same criteria that you use to call RS an overrated driver (conveniently forgetting that he's been driving a Toyota "Yaris" F1 for the last few seasons!). Double standards?! :p :

ArrowsFA1

30th August 2007, 15:10

When you start the IFs at least have the decency to accept other members IFs too. How does that sound?!
ioan, "what if's" mean nothing. They're pure speculation. My comment was speculation, as was yours. How about you accept that instead of going on the attack at every opportunity?

My point and my opinion remains that Kimi has had a stronger season than Felipe since France, and is more likely to end the season as the highest placed Ferrari driver in the WDC. Time will tell, but 555-04Q2 is right that at the start of the year the general view was that Kimi's speed would see off Felipe comfortably. That hasn't happened.

Double standards?! :p :
No. Irony. :p :

ioan

30th August 2007, 15:51

ioan, "what if's" mean nothing. They're pure speculation. My comment was speculation, as was yours. How about you accept that instead of going on the attack at every opportunity?

You started with the attacks on the"what ifs" after you used them yourself, and you still say it was me. Being the hypocrite that obviously you are I see no point to continue this discussion.

No. Irony. :p :

Hypocrisy, again.

jas123f1

30th August 2007, 16:58

I don't like the way Kimi loosed in Turkey - when it's the team who decided the winner, without leaving Kimi any possibility - I don't like it - i'm not yelling more now - but I DON'T LIKE IT !!!

ioan

30th August 2007, 19:37

I don't like the way Kimi loosed in Turkey - when it's the team who decided the winner, without leaving Kimi any possibility - I don't like it - i'm not yelling more now - but I DON'T LIKE IT !!!

You should maybe write a letter to J. Todt! :p :

jso1985

31st August 2007, 00:05

Damn! I'm a Kimi fan yet I still don't see how he was robbed from victory in Turkey

what's wrong with me? :s :p :

leopard

31st August 2007, 03:47

I never paid attention to that before, but this time in comparison to Felipe and Fernando, Kimi's face was quite colorful.
Now we have to admit that Hamilton have benefit from undistinguished face :(

tinchote

31st August 2007, 04:12

Damn! I'm a Kimi fan yet I still don't see how he was robbed from victory in Turkey

what's wrong with me? :s :p :

Please contact jas123f1 and he will give you an appointment for re-education ;) :p :

wmcot

31st August 2007, 07:12

Damn! I'm a Kimi fan yet I still don't see how he was robbed from victory in Turkey

what's wrong with me? :s :p :

You haven't received your eyeglass shipment from Maranello? ;)

I agree with you. I am a Ferrari fan, too, and I would like to see Kimi as WDC in a red car, but I don't see anything unusual about Turkey.

Juppe

31st August 2007, 07:47

You haven't received your eyeglass shipment from Maranello? ;)

I agree with you. I am a Ferrari fan, too, and I would like to see Kimi as WDC in a red car, but I don't see anything unusual about Turkey.

I disagree, it was highly unusual that the order of the Ferrari drivers was dictated by their performances....

:D :D :D

pino

31st August 2007, 09:32

You started with the attacks on the"what ifs" after you used them yourself, and you still say it was me. Being the hypocrite that obviously you are I see no point to continue this discussion.

Hypocrisy, again.

ioan, enough with the personal attacks...and I mean it !

555-04Q2

31st August 2007, 11:54

but I don't see anything unusual about Turkey.

Its called excuses, again ;)

Ranger

31st August 2007, 12:15

There was nothing unusual about Turkey. Kimi made a Q3 mistake and paid for it with 2 points.

As for Kimi's lack of "dominance" over Massa: I really do not care. The proximity of the top 4 in points is enough for me. :up:

jso1985

1st September 2007, 01:17

I disagree, it was highly unusual that the order of the Ferrari drivers was dictated by their performances....

:eek: :eek: :eek:

and then McLaren are the cheaters :rolleyes: :p :

RaikkonenRules

1st September 2007, 18:51

Considering that before the season Räikkönen was expected to have an overwhelming advantage over Massa, then I guess this shows that he hasn't proved to be as great as expected.

Maybe it's not Kimi who has underperformed but Massa who has overperformed ;)

wmcot

2nd September 2007, 08:19

I think that Felipe matured and learned his lessons well at Ferrari. He had a great teacher!

That doesn't mean that I don't think that Kimi is still very fast, however. I do think they are more closely matched than people would have imagined at the start of the season.

Ranger

2nd September 2007, 09:58

I think that Felipe matured and learned his lessons well at Ferrari.

I don't really think he has. Sure he's won 5 races when he has started from pole position in one of the 2 best cars on the grid (both this year and last year), but apart from that I don't see that he has matured that much IMO.

ioan

2nd September 2007, 13:39

I don't really think he has. Sure he's won 5 races when he has started from pole position in one of the 2 best cars on the grid (both this year and last year), but apart from that I don't see that he has matured that much IMO.

You talk like if you started watching F1 last year.
Take a look at how Felipe's driving changed since his debut and than we should talk.

Malbec

2nd September 2007, 13:49

Ranger

2nd September 2007, 15:40

You talk like if you started watching F1 last year.
Take a look at how Felipe's driving changed since his debut and than we should talk.

You'll notice that wmcot said:

I think that Felipe matured and learned his lessons well at Ferrari.

And I don't think he has matured that much since joining Ferrari IMO.

ioan

2nd September 2007, 16:00

You'll notice that wmcot said:

And I don't think he has matured that much since joining Ferrari IMO.

He first joined Ferrari in 2003 as test driver. I would say that he matured a lot since than.

Trqster

2nd September 2007, 17:48

Malbec

2nd September 2007, 18:13

To be completely fair, we'll have to wait for next year in order to compare acurately Massa and Raikonnen, since the Kimi was deffo less at ease within the team until mid-year.

I think Kimi is the stronger one, especially on raw talent and that will be a strenght next year with the TC banned.

Over the long term I don't believe Kimi will have a good time against Massa.

Ferrari seems to be a team where personal relationships really count, where the mechanics really will go the extra mile if they bond with the driver. I can see why they'd go nuts for someone like Schumacher who'd go back to the pit after retiring in a race and thank the mechanics. I don't think they'd bond so well with someone like Kimi who only turns up to race, won't bother learning Italian and won't talk to the mechanics unless its absolutely necessary. Neither can I see Kimi doing what Schumacher did in Suzuka last year and spend time consoling the mechanics only minutes after losing the championship.

Massa might not be as committed as Michael either but he does more than Kimi. I think he might end up commanding more loyalty from the rank and file at Ferrari over the long term, and that may tip the balance in his favour. Alonso at McLaren is showing how unpleasant life can seem if the team appears to be behind your teammate and not you.

jens

2nd September 2007, 18:51

I've always been under the impression that Kimi hasn't really improved that much since joining Sauber in 2001. Sure he was blindingly quick then and he's been blindingly quick ever since but he seemed to have reached his limit very quickly and hasn't improved since.

Well. This seems quite usual that rookies are already close to their limit right from the start - like we also see in Hamilton's case. They may lack of experience and may make costly errors, but raw speed tends to be there more or less from the beginning. Of course drivers are different individuals and some - like Kovalainen - have needed some time to settle in, but Räikkönen was indeed fast straightaway. But for many years I have noticed people saying like "Kimi has developed a lot from his rookie year and is now clearly better than his former team-mate Nick."

Some may say that "nowadays F1 is "easy" and that's why rookies adjust quickly," but this is not a trend of the modern era. Bernd Rosemeyer and Guy Moll started winning races practically straightaway, when they started participating at Grand Prixs back in the 1930s...

janneppi

2nd September 2007, 19:19

I don't think they'd bond so well with someone like Kimi who only turns up to race, won't bother learning Italian and won't talk to the mechanics unless its absolutely necessary. .
Where have you found out this, are you working for Ferrari?

ioan

2nd September 2007, 20:55

Where have you found out this, are you working for Ferrari?

Can you prove that he is wrong? :p :

I suppose you can't. He was just stating his opinion, and he might even be entitled to do it! ;)

Malbec

2nd September 2007, 21:57

Where have you found out this, are you working for Ferrari?

Its been quite widely reported that he isn't learning Italian and doesn't stick around much with his team either during testing or racing. He was like that at McLaren and I don't see why he'll change at Ferrari. Plus we've already seen him leave the circuit before the race is over when he retired earlier this season.

Jens, I think Massa and Sato have both definitely improved considerably since they both made their debut in 2002. Both have definitely become quicker and far more consistent. I would honestly have laughed myself silly if someone had told me at the end of 2002 that Massa would end up at Ferrari and I don't think I would have been alone. Hamilton is a little different, I don't think he has much space left to improve but he has taken his time getting to where he is now. Every driver is different IMO.

jens

2nd September 2007, 23:30

Jens, I think Massa and Sato have both definitely improved considerably since they both made their debut in 2002. Both have definitely become quicker and far more consistent. I would honestly have laughed myself silly if someone had told me at the end of 2002 that Massa would end up at Ferrari and I don't think I would have been alone. Hamilton is a little different, I don't think he has much space left to improve but he has taken his time getting to where he is now. Every driver is different IMO.

Yeah, but as I was talking about raw speed in my post, then both Massa and Sato were quick already on their debut season. Massa lost to Heidfeld about by the same margin as Räikkönen the year before to the same driver. And I remember several races, where Sato managed to drive faster than Fisichella, who was considered to be a top driver then.

janneppi

3rd September 2007, 06:45

I suppose you can't. He was just stating his opinion, and he might even be entitled to do it! ;)
Have i suggested othervise? :rolleyes:

janneppi

3rd September 2007, 06:50

Its been quite widely reported that he isn't learning Italian and doesn't stick around much with his team either during testing or racing. He was like that at McLaren and I don't see why he'll change at Ferrari. Plus we've already seen him leave the circuit before the race is over when he retired earlier this season.

Link please!! :p :
Mind you the race he left, he asked for a permission from Todt because Finland was playing in the ice hockey championship finals that day and if my memory serves me right he is friends with couple of the players who were in the team and wanted to watch the game.

I have to say it makes the Ferrari team look bit amateurish if the engineering staff are like little primadonnas who aren't able to do their jobs without being pampered by the drivers, i always though it should be the other way. :D

Juppe

3rd September 2007, 07:45

Can you prove that he is wrong? :p :

I suppose you can't. He was just stating his opinion, and he might even be entitled to do it! ;)

The things stated were not really a matter of opinion, but things that can be verified, if necessary.

I think the world was created by the invisible pink unicorn, and I don't think you can prove me wrong, can you?

Ranger

3rd September 2007, 08:02

He first joined Ferrari in 2003 as test driver. I would say that he matured a lot since than.

But it doesn't mean that his solitary year was the catalyst for that maturity. For example, in 2004 (no longer in his rookie season, after his year testing) he was beaten 22-12 by Fisichella, which doesn't say a lot about Massa. Though he did improve substantially in 2005, and when he finally got to grips (a la Raikkonen this year, you could say) with the '06 Ferrari (a title contending car) he started scoring poles and capitalising on them.

jas123f1

4th September 2007, 16:46

I don't think they'd bond so well with someone like Kimi who only turns up to race, won't bother learning Italian and won't talk to the mechanics unless its absolutely necessary.

I heard when Kimi visited Finland under the 3 weeks break they had before Hungary, lot of people from Ferrari (probably most of them from his team) was visiting him at his (Finnish) home and every one had a good time.
So I don’t think you know that much about the relations in the team.

Speaking about to learn speak Italian - I remember when Peter Sauber pick up Kimi from Renault 3 series to F1 - in that time was Kimis English very pour (almost as mine is now) but today he speaks much better - so maybe we should wait a bit before and give him time to learn Italian. :)

Malbec

4th September 2007, 19:18

I heard when Kimi visited Finland under the 3 weeks break they had before Hungary, lot of people from Ferrari (probably most of them from his team) was visiting him at his (Finnish) home and every one had a good time.
So I don’t think you know that much about the relations in the team.

Speaking about to learn speak Italian - I remember when Peter Sauber pick up Kimi from Renault 3 series to F1 - in that time was Kimis English very pour (almost as mine is now) but today he speaks much better - so maybe we should wait a bit before and give him time to learn Italian. :)

I've obviously hit a raw nerve with my comments about Kimi.

However I stand by my position that Kimi is not going to command the same degree of loyalty from the Ferrari rank and file mechanics as Michael Schumacher did due to the fact he won't make as much of an effort with the team.

Also regarding Kimi's English, it may be good but he's not exactly talkative or communicative is he?

I don't see why its difficult to acknowledge these things, it doesn't affect the fact that he's a damn quick driver.

Malbec

4th September 2007, 19:20

I have to say it makes the Ferrari team look bit amateurish if the engineering staff are like little primadonnas who aren't able to do their jobs without being pampered by the drivers, i always though it should be the other way. :D

Amateurish?

Surely you can't be suggesting that Ferrari would be the kind of team that could 'forget' to refuel one of its cars in quali could you? ;)

Juppe

4th September 2007, 20:02

Malbec

4th September 2007, 20:06

So unless you've spent some time in Ferrari carage, its still hearsay even if you state its a fact.

That is my impression of what is happening, just as the opposite views are also impressions. As I explained my impressions are based on several articles about him both at Ferrari and McLaren in the print media and on the internet.

I don't think I ever stated it as fact in the sense that it is a fact that Lewis Hamilton is leading the WDC at the moment.

Juppe

4th September 2007, 20:14

That is my impression of what is happening, just as the opposite views are also impressions. As I explained my impressions are based on several articles about him both at Ferrari and McLaren in the print media and on the internet.

I don't think I ever stated it as fact in the sense that it is a fact that Lewis Hamilton is leading the WDC at the moment.

I follow F1 media quite intensely, but those sorts of articles have escaped my view.

So an example could be nice, if you please?

Malbec

4th September 2007, 20:18

I follow F1 media quite intensely, but those sorts of articles have escaped my view.

So an example could be nice, if you please?

AtlasF1, motorsport and CAR magazine (the last are two separate publications)

Juppe

4th September 2007, 21:09

AtlasF1, motorsport and CAR magazine (the last are two separate publications)

I presume nothing just a click away? Or link please, as they say?

Malbec

4th September 2007, 21:37

I presume nothing just a click away? Or link please, as they say?

CAR and motorsport are print only I'm afraid. Regarding Atlas it was in the journal but I can't recall where. It shouldn't take too long going through the back issues.

ioan

4th September 2007, 23:20

I follow F1 media quite intensely, but those sorts of articles have escaped my view.

Why is that I'm not surprised! :p :

Juppe

5th September 2007, 06:53

CAR and motorsport are print only I'm afraid. Regarding Atlas it was in the journal but I can't recall where. It shouldn't take too long going through the back issues.

I take that as a no.

This starts to sound like the case last year, when some people claimed that Kimi said in an interview that he'll never drive with Schumi in the same team.

I asked for a link or something, but the pile of magazines was too deep to dig and that article must have been eaten by a dog. Needless to say, nobody came forth with any kind of proof with that claim either.

Juppe

5th September 2007, 08:06

Why is that I'm not surprised! :p :

Why is it? :D

Can you provide us a link? You of all people shouldn't believe everything people say about Ferrari without proof.

ioan

5th September 2007, 08:25

Why is it? :D

Can you provide us a link? You of all people shouldn't believe everything people say about Ferrari without proof.

Who said something about Ferrari, show them to me!

Juppe

5th September 2007, 09:50

Who said something about Ferrari, show them to me!

I sort of consider Kimi part of Ferrari nowadays, don't you?

janneppi

5th September 2007, 11:51

Who said something about Ferrari, show them to me!
They are everywhere, hiding in the bushes, behind parked cars, maybe even behind your back when you read these forums, they are plentyfull and are coming to get you. :D

DexDexter

5th September 2007, 13:55

I've obviously hit a raw nerve with my comments about Kimi.

However I stand by my position that Kimi is not going to command the same degree of loyalty from the Ferrari rank and file mechanics as Michael Schumacher did due to the fact he won't make as much of an effort with the team.

Also regarding Kimi's English, it may be good but he's not exactly talkative or communicative is he?

I don't see why its difficult to acknowledge these things, it doesn't affect the fact that he's a damn quick driver.

So you think (based on your cultural heritage ) that people should talk a lot? Have you ever considered that there are lots of different cultures in this world and in some cultures you talk when you really have something to say. Why should a Finn act like an Englishman or whatever and say "please" or "How are you" every ten seconds or discuss the weather or other nonsense. Kimi is at Ferrari to drive the car, not to be a nice cosmopolitan person.....

Garry Walker

5th September 2007, 14:24

And I don't think he has matured that much since joining Ferrari IMO.

Have you watched any races lately? Felipe has improved tremendously at Ferrari, it is so obvious. He is a totally different man compared to who he was in 2002.

I don't think they'd bond so well with someone like Kimi who only turns up to race, won't bother learning Italian and won't talk to the mechanics unless its absolutely necessary. Neither can I see Kimi doing what Schumacher did in Suzuka last year and spend time consoling the mechanics only minutes after losing the championship.

I prefer Massa over Kimi easily, but you are not speaking any sense.
Schumi himself only learnt italian after quite a few years at Ferrari and never was any good at it at all. I doubt anyone at Ferrari thought less of him for that. Same for Kimi, why should he learn italian when his race engineer speaks english and everyone in the team speaks english? Speaking italian at Ferrari is mostly to pamper the tifosi. I can also not see why people would think less of him just because he speaks less than some people. Some people are naturally shy, some are outgoing.

Well. This seems quite usual that rookies are already close to their limit right from the start - like we also see in Hamilton's case.
I agree, Hamilton wont get much better than he is now.

I heard when Kimi visited Finland under the 3 weeks break they had before Hungary, lot of people from Ferrari (probably most of them from his team) was visiting him at his (Finnish) home and every one had a good time.
So I don’t think you know that much about the relations in the team.
Where did you hear that?

ioan

5th September 2007, 14:36

They are everywhere, hiding in the bushes, behind parked cars, maybe even behind your back when you read these forums, they are plentyfull and are coming to get you. :D

You should stop watching crappy movies! :p :

leopard

5th September 2007, 15:28

ioan

5th September 2007, 16:33

One thing has caused Ferrari's failure this year is they are trying to get out of their classic tradition focusing on one driver.
They have fast car with two fast drivers, but both of them has no greater talent by a contrast to another.
Actually, if to lead in the standing is difficult, one of Ferrari is supposed to be in between of McLaren.

And the fact that they had 4 different mechanical problems, while McLaren had none, has nothing to do with it?

Sure having to equal drivers has some direct influence on the reliability of the car. :rolleyes:

Trqster

5th September 2007, 18:40

Garry Walker

I agree, Hamilton wont get much better than he is now.

You really think that after a year of getting to know new circuits, acummulating car setup and racing experience, he's got no margin for improvement next year!?
That would be a first in my book for a rookie...but then again Hamilton has revelead himself as almost super-human, so who knows...

ioan

5th September 2007, 21:51

Garry Walker

You really think that after a year of getting to know new circuits, acummulating car setup and racing experience, he's got no margin for improvement next year!?
That would be a first in my book for a rookie...but then again Hamilton has revelead himself as almost super-human, so who knows...

Won't get much better doesn't mean that he won't get better at all.

Malbec

6th September 2007, 23:01

I take that as a no.

This starts to sound like the case last year, when some people claimed that Kimi said in an interview that he'll never drive with Schumi in the same team.

I asked for a link or something, but the pile of magazines was too deep to dig and that article must have been eaten by a dog. Needless to say, nobody came forth with any kind of proof with that claim either.

If you have the subscription to Atlas it comes with a search engine. Type in 'Kimi' and 'Ferrari' and it will lead you to the relevant articles.

The article in CAR came the month after the GP where Kimi rather unceremoniously told Martin Brundle "I was having a sh%t" when he was asked why he was late coming to the grid. If you don't read Motorsport then I really do suggest you do, its a fantastic magazine that covers all eras of just about every type of four wheeled motorsport.

Just don't expect me to spend my valuable time thumbing through past copies to prove a point on a forum. Its simply not worth my time.

ShiftingGears

7th September 2007, 02:52

Have you watched any races lately? Felipe has improved tremendously at Ferrari, it is so obvious. He is a totally different man compared to who he was in 2002.

But he hasn't been at Ferrari since 2002. He was testing there in 2003. In 2004, back at Sauber he was outpointed by Fisichella 22-12. In 2005, he beat Villeneuve and crashed less and IMO when he "matured" (I hate that word) most. It's only logical that in 2006, given time to adjust to a fast car, he is fast - and I wouldn't call that massive maturity as such. Look at Kimi in a fast(er) car this year. To suggest that he has "matured" through this season as his results have improved is just silly.

JMO

Ranger

7th September 2007, 02:54

Tazio

8th September 2007, 07:01

Damn! I'm a Kimi fan yet I still don't see how he was robbed from victory in Turkey

what's wrong with me? :s :p :
Nothing wrong with you!
Kimi is in the position he is in because his qualifying pace has compromised his ability to translate race pace into wins. Rev limitation I believe has leveled the field. Kimi is not a domanant force with the current regs unless he can consistantly put himself on the front row, and grab more poles while he is at it. IMHO

Trqster

8th September 2007, 07:17

Nothing wrong with you!
Kimi is in the position he is in because his qualifying pace has compromised his ability to translate race pace into wins. Rev limitation I believe has leveled the field. Kimi is not a domanant force with the current regs unless he can consistantly put himself on the front row, and grab more poles while he is at it. IMHO

Maybe Kimi can't just overdrive/over-rev the car like he used to do back in the day... With current rules and especially tires, you have to be a very smooth driver, and we've seen a few drivers out there suffering with these rules, like Kimi, Kubica and even Alonso.
Bring back the slicks and keep TC baned and we'll see pretty quick who's got the most car control.

Tazio

8th September 2007, 07:53

Maybe Kimi can't just overdrive/over-rev the car like he used to do back in the day... With current rules and especially tires, you have to be a very smooth driver, and we've seen a few drivers out there suffering with these rules, like Kimi, Kubica and even Alonso.
Bring back the slicks and keep TC baned and we'll see pretty quick who's got the most car control.
A good overall post!
I may be a little old, but I don't think anyone considerers one year removed "back in the day" Plus Kimi has never been able to get away with over driving a 'Mercedes lump" Check the record. I think a lot of the disappointment among KR fans is seeing him stuck behind a car that on race day he is faster than. This brings us back to the apparent disparity between qualifying, and race pace.

Are you implying that Kimi is obsolete?
A second rate driver,
or just lacking the style that the emerging trend in rules currently requires?