Webber's Hydraulics [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Hondo

26th August 2007, 13:55

Over the years, it seems that most of Webber's failures have been hydraulic related. I can't help but think this has something to do with driving style, i.e., the angle and/or force and suspension settings he uses whilst going over kerbs.

It seems like if a dumb@ss like me can notice this, then a team engineer could figure out whats going on and beef up Webber's hydraulic package.

I know we banter back and forth about whether or not a driver's style affects reliability but I'm in the camp that believes it does and have noticed that Kimi and Mark seem to have reliability issues that follow them where ever they go.

After all, if one driver can win with a car and the other driver can't, alonso-fisi, then it follows that one driver can break his car and the other one won't.

Just one season, I'd like to see Mark Webber in a car tough enough to match his style.

wedge

26th August 2007, 15:03

rohanweb

26th August 2007, 16:35

Webber is the most unluckiest guy in F1..
this guy deserve a drive with a top team... I wonder who would give him a chance?

VkmSpouge

26th August 2007, 17:14

Webber is the most unluckiest guy in F1..
this guy deserve a drive with a top team... I wonder who would give him a chance?

Hopefully someone with a reliable car :p :

markabilly

26th August 2007, 17:26

Webber has been unlucky, nothing to do with driving style.

The problem with RBR is their hydraulics system, the seamless shift gearbox and electronics. DC just mentioned on the warm-up lap that the ECU wasn't blipping the throttle properly on downshifts.

Yeah must be the car, drivers got nothing to do with it...they do not even blip their own throttles...wonder how many know what it is to heel and toe on downshifting and braking into a corner...LH, Vettie and probably even old dogs like RS would think if you asked, that you were talking about some kinky sex or something....

Hondo

26th August 2007, 18:29

markabilly

26th August 2007, 18:53

Webber just paddles too hard, must have been abused as child or he might be an Australian, but i doubt the latter

Kevincal

26th August 2007, 21:20

Seems like a given almost every race for Webber to retire...

wedge

26th August 2007, 23:05

Yeah must be the car, drivers got nothing to do with it...they do not even blip their own throttles...wonder how many know what it is to heel and toe on downshifting and braking into a corner...LH, Vettie and probably even old dogs like RS would think if you asked, that you were talking about some kinky sex or something....

You're joking right? Heel & Toe is one of the basic skills racing drivers should know. JPM has won a couple of races in NASCAR on road courses where a stock car has a manual H-pattern stick shift.

He had hydraulic problems at Williams too. It's still worth a look to see if it can be improved to withstand the driving, if that factors into it.

Due respect, Williams and RBR don't have the best of resources compared to say McLaren and are having to perfect their seamless shift transmission - which rely on hydraulics and electronics.

Some people say that you make your own luck, but I can't see how you can abuse the gearbox when all the driver has to do these days is press a couple of paddles and let the ECU do all the work.

truefan72

27th August 2007, 08:25

jens

27th August 2007, 08:58

Again Webber in problems. Again the big question is: driver related or not? Hard to say. I think the drivers and engineers must and should know it, who exactly how much is at fault. Impossible to speculate on the forums. :) It's quite popular to explain everything with "evil destiny", endless coincidences etc. Which of course to some extent is probably true (I can't imagine absolutely all the drivers to have exactly the same amount of luck - that would be even more strange :p :) ... but to which extent?

Sleeper

27th August 2007, 13:11

It makes you wonder how many failures were really Hydraulics. It is a bit curious though that it always happens to him and not his fellow teammate.

his type of luck / unluckyness is bordering on the absurd if it were purely hydraulics. It does merit a depper loking into
DC doesnt seem to be short of reliability problems at RBR this year either, and Rosberg was having just as many problems at Williams as Webber last year as well. The electronics have so much controle over the gearbox, hydrolics, engine etc these days that its hard to bleive that a driver can have that much influence over a cars reliability anymore. Afterall, I doubt its Kimi's fault that the Ferrari isnt as reliable anymore no he's joined, or that McLaren is now bullit proof since he left.

Valve Bounce

27th August 2007, 13:59

Is he peeing where he shouldn't?

markabilly

27th August 2007, 15:19

You're joking right? Heel & Toe is one of the basic skills racing drivers should know. JPM has won a couple of races in NASCAR on road courses where a stock car has a manual H-pattern stick shift.

Due respect, Williams and RBR don't have the best of resources compared to say McLaren and are having to perfect their seamless shift transmission - which rely on hydraulics and electronics.

Some people say that you make your own luck, but I can't see how you can abuse the gearbox when all the driver has to do these days is press a couple of paddles and let the ECU do all the work.

One does not need to know how to heel and toe to drive F1, indeed there is a thought that RB was always at something of a disadvatnage at Ferrari because he used his right foot on the gas, and his right foot on the brake, and that there was a measurable difference in time compared to MS in entry to the corner

MS could keep on it longer, and there was not the lag between taking the foot off and hitting the brakes and I beleive it was at japan one year where they said it was costing atleast .2 of a second per lap to RB compared to MS, and that one little difference was where MS was supierior at Suzka, hence RB went to trying to do left foot braking, although it did not improve his lap times (too much ingraining of the other was the thought)

And I do not know whether JPM is still using his left foot to brake or is doing the old heel and toe. Or bothering with the clutch.... With modern gearboxes on the NAscar, many drivers do not use the clutch at all, as gentle pressure on the lever is all that is necessary to change gears when the revs and gears match up at certain speeds

I did it on race bikes and cars in the early 80's all the time. never used the clutch at all, just pressurre on the lever, and when speed of bike, engine revs and gears matched, the shift was almost "seamless"--now just stomping into the gears did not do the mechanical parts any good...indeed common consenus was that not changing correctly did not do anything but damage the clutch and the engine--the gearbox usually remained ok

But cluching or not clutching, shifting at the wrong moment could cause all sorts of engine problems and drivetrain problems--indeed better to put some light pressure on the shifter and let the thing shift itself, that use the clutch and force it in to another gear at the wrong time...

so i do wonder why kr and webber seem to have this problem--is there something that they do when timing the use of the paddles or what?????

wedge

27th August 2007, 23:20

Heel & toe is just a basic requirement of 'advanced driving' for better downshifts. They pretty much know that you have to match engine speed with the correct gears on downshifts. F1 drivers are given all sorts of cars to play with personally and for hospitality eg. VIP hot laps.

Anthony Davidson and Jenson Button have mentioned the Honda Civic Type R (EP) as their favourite road cars, and they've done their bit for Honda PR!

so i do wonder why kr and webber seem to have this problem--is there something that they do when timing the use of the paddles or what?????

The ECU blips the throttle. As I just mentioned at the top of this thread, there was a radio transmission from DC on the warm up lap at Turkey when DC complained about the car not blipping the throttle properly on downshifts.

Valve Bounce

28th August 2007, 01:00

All this is fine, but it still doesn't explain poor Mark's run of bad luck with hydraulics. Does his coming from down under have anything to do with the reverse vortex flow of the fluids ? Better ask the Dr of Fluid Mech about this phenomenon.

Hondo

28th August 2007, 01:18

Valve Bounce

28th August 2007, 01:41

Maybe he just drank too much of that Red Bull goop :eek:

wedge

28th August 2007, 01:43

Allow me to clarify "driving style". Yes the paddles and electronics control the engine and transmission, but the drivers can set the suspensions up the way they want to, within reason. If Webber likes a harder set up, with less "give", when and how he hits the kerbs could be transmitting a harder shock to his car and it's components. I've seen a lot of steel and stainless steel tubing fracture and leak from shocks transmitted from further down the line.

Maybe something similar plagues Mark. It seems like the engineers could get on top of it better than they have.

In some ways I would agree with you there. Mario Ilien remarked at the beginning of this year that Kimi is a car breaker because he's very hard on the car over kerbs.

The flipside is Schumi who was an aggressive driver - you don't string a series of fastest laps without driving the car hard and on the limit and he never had huge problems with his Ferrari over the last 6 years or so.

A driver should push the car to the limits and understand its limitations and its the job of the rest of the team to raise that limit. In some ways its a double-age edged.

Personally, I think Webber has about 10% to blame. RBR have huge problems with their seamless shift system. Christian Horner mentioned not too long ago they're having problems with the ECU and gearbox not working in-sync, and therefore likely to affect the hydraulics.

Valve Bounce

28th August 2007, 01:51

In some ways I would agree with you there. Mario Ilien remarked at the beginning of this year that Kimi is a car breaker because he's very hard on the car over kerbs.

The flipside is Schumi who was an aggressive driver - you don't string a series of fastest laps without driving the car hard and on the limit and he never had huge problems with his Ferrari over the last 6 years or so.

A driver should push the car to the limits and understand its limitations and its the job of the rest of the team to raise that limit. In some ways its a double-age edged.

Personally, I think Webber has about 10% to blame. RBR have huge problems with their seamless shift system. Christian Horner mentioned not too long ago they're having problems with the ECU and gearbox not working in-sync, and therefore likely to affect the hydraulics.

Maybe they should get TAG to give them a decent ECU. :rolleyes:

millencolin

28th August 2007, 02:05

all i can say is i hope they figure it out quickly! i'm not going to the japanese gp to see webber's car break!!! i want to see that red bull get across the line at least

markabilly

28th August 2007, 03:37

Heel & toe is just a basic requirement of 'advanced driving' for better downshifts. They pretty much know that you have to match engine speed with the correct gears on downshifts. F1 drivers are given all sorts of cars to play with personally and for hospitality eg. VIP hot laps.

Anthony Davidson and Jenson Button have mentioned the Honda Civic Type R (EP) as their favourite road cars, and they've done their bit for Honda PR!

The ECU blips the throttle. As I just mentioned at the top of this thread, there was a radio transmission from DC on the warm up lap at Turkey when DC complained about the car not blipping the throttle properly on downshifts.

The question remains:
Is it possible to be using the paddles in some inappropriate manner or rythm that would sooner or later cause issues with some component such as with Webber or KR?

Or can one simply shift at random up and down and the electronics et al, will always work perfectly to avoid damage

I know that despite the great braking capacity, in the past it was possible to abuse brakes such as they would be damaged or the discs even explode---

wedge

28th August 2007, 14:39

The question remains:
Is it possible to be using the paddles in some inappropriate manner or rythm that would sooner or later cause issues with some component such as with Webber or KR?

Or can one simply shift at random up and down and the electronics et al, will always work perfectly to avoid damage

I know that despite the great braking capacity, in the past it was possible to abuse brakes such as they would be damaged or the discs even explode---

The right paddle is for upshifts, the left for downshifts. The electronics do all the work and the hydraulics is actual mechanism that changes gears.

Brakes aren't really good comparison because they're a mechanical device.

markabilly

28th August 2007, 19:29

The right paddle is for upshifts, the left for downshifts. The electronics do all the work and the hydraulics is actual mechanism that changes gears.

Brakes aren't really good comparison because they're a mechanical device.
Not trying to argue, but what i am curious is if doing the paddle thing at the wrong moment is something like forcing a gear shift. It took me awhile many years ago to realize that forcing the gearshift seldom damaged the gear per se, but could cause many issues elsewhere, including piston rods popping through the engine block.

So for those in the know, is there any thought that the generic term of hydralic failure is hiding some type of gearbox failure because the hydraulics, etc, just could not handle the wrong shift at the wrong time, or has the electronic sophistication reached a point, that one can do no damage no matter how or when they paddle?

Garry Walker

29th August 2007, 00:46

Over the years, it seems that most of Webber's failures have been hydraulic related.

Thankfully your good friend Garry Walker is here with some statistic analysis on your claim.
Webber has retired from 28 races due to car problems, 6 of them have been due to hydraulics.
I am not very sure, but I think that really isnt most...
Added to that, it is a bit rich to blame either of the RB drivers for this years car problems, unless you think they both suddenly forgot how to not kill the gearbox for example?
Newey and his co-designers have just overdone it a bit.

In some ways I would agree with you there. Mario Ilien remarked at the beginning of this year that Kimi is a car breaker because he's very hard on the car over kerbs.

You mean the comment he clarified a day later saying it was FABRICATED by the newspaper which published it.

Gibbsy

29th August 2007, 02:43

Marks been unfortunate to move from one team that was implementing a difficult seamless shift gearbox (Williams) and suffering the teething problems that go with it to another team (red Bull) that is implementing a difficult seamless shift gearbox and experiencing the teething problems that go with it.

Mickey T

29th August 2007, 14:04

Not trying to argue, but what i am curious is if doing the paddle thing at the wrong moment is something like forcing a gear shift. ?

no.

[quote="markabilly"]or has the electronic sophistication reached a point, that one can do no damage no matter how or when they paddle

yes. more than 10 years ago...

markabilly

29th August 2007, 21:19

no.

or has the electronic sophistication reached a point, that one can do no damage no matter how or when they paddle

yes. more than 10 years ago...

Thanks

Guess that means that outside of running the car into something or riding around too hard on the brakes, there just is not much that the driver can do break an otherwise healthy car (and I do put emphasis on healthy, as I suppose if the car were having some engine/drivetrain issue, the driver could still enhance the potential for an explosion or speed up the process so that it blows sooner rather than later but otherwise...) :dozey:

ArrowsFA1

30th August 2007, 08:16

A driver should push the car to the limits and understand its limitations and its the job of the rest of the team to raise that limit.
That reminds me of the story told about Gilles Villeneuve's propensity to break Ferrari driveshafts, which the team then strenghtened.

wedge

30th August 2007, 12:29

You mean the comment he clarified a day later saying it was FABRICATED by the newspaper which published it.

Regardless, my point is that there are some people who believe in 'making your own luck' such as Martin Brundle. He has pointed before that its possible to damage the car over bumps and kerbs since they set up the cars as stiff as possible. So you can imagine the shock that gets transfered onto the car: the rear dampers and anti-roll bar sit on top the gearbox. There was a time when you could damage the CV joint quite easily from smacking the kerbs and kerb-hopping.

Hawkmoon

31st August 2007, 04:05

I think there's an unwritten rule that says that teams using customer engines shall not blame the engine for a mechanical DNF under any circumstances. So if RBR have had an engine failure, one that didn't result in gigantic cloud of stunningly obvious white smoke, then you can bet that they put it down to something vague like hydraulics rather than coming out and saying that their Renault motor just shat itself again.

I not so sure that one driver can "hit" curbs harder than another, unless the other guy stays off the curbs completely. Seeing as how drivers need to use the curbs to get a good lap time, I don't think that any driver out there is staying completely off the curbs.

And surely the force transmitted through the suspension when a curb is hit is a direct result of the weight of the car and the speed it is doing? The only other variable, I suppose, is the angle at which the curb is hit.

DC's car weighs the same as Webber's, so unless Webber is going much faster over curbs, thus transmitting more force through his suspension than DC, I don't see how his driving style is the problem. Could Webber's angle of attack be detrimental to his car's health? Again, I don't see how. The apex of a corner doesn't move and all the drivers are trying to hit it, so how much variance can there be between the angle that one driver hits it as opposed to another?

Hondo

2nd September 2007, 00:50

I have a hard time believing that anyone, based on random fate, can be that unlucky. In Turkey, he was the only one to break down. You say Mark has nothing to do with it? There were those that raked Ron over the coals for throwing that nice Hamilton kid to the F1 wolves and how rushing him into the big show so fast with a 2 time WDC was going to shatter his confidence. Well his confidence doesn't look shattered. You going to tell me that has all been luck? The kid's skill and driving style has had nothing to do with his success? I think some of the reliability problems that follow Mark and Kimi are of their own making, somehow.

jso1985

3rd September 2007, 00:22

the fact that the "unluckiness" is happening in 3 different teams could suggest Mark is doing something wrong...

Hondo

3rd September 2007, 00:31

the fact that the "unluckiness" is happening in 3 different teams could suggest Mark is doing something wrong...

I don't necessarily think he's doing anything "wrong", I do think there's something to his style that require reinforcements to be made on certain areas of the car.

ozrevhead

3rd September 2007, 07:50

if it was driving style someone somewhere should of picked that up surely!

Hondo

3rd September 2007, 13:25

if it was driving style someone somewhere should of picked that up surely!

Yeah, I too would think that someone that gets paid far more than I do and is supposed to be smarter than me would have figured that out by now also. However, as we all know, that isn't always how it goes.

markabilly

3rd September 2007, 15:41

Hondo

3rd September 2007, 19:25

I don't know either. Mark is quite a bit taller than the rest of the herd. Maybe it has to do with a stretched drivers tub. I don't know.

Flat.tyres

4th September 2007, 12:51

If what has been said is true in postings to my questions, about the electronics and design of gearboxes and engines being so "electronic" that the driver can not abuse them with "random paddling", then it must be pure mechanical failure from a source other than driver

And if hitting curbs is not destroying/damaging suspension, it is difficult for me to see how it would be causing these failures in the absence of obvious chassis failure

Some drivers are more agressive in the car and abrasive on the equipment. It stands to reason that if you can drive consistently fast with minimal stress on the car, you will have less chance of a failure that may be underlying but not fatal unless the car is stressed to the max.

Same with tyres. Some drivers complain more about tyres that go off because they are ragged where others are stressing them less and protecting their longetivity.

There is so much fluctuating force going into a car that banging it over curbs and the such will expose any weakness that another driver may not uncover. I dont know if this is the case with Mark because he doesn't strike me as the sort but he does seem a little too unlucky.

Luck is a tangible force in F1. It's true you make your own luck but sometimes it's better to have a lucky driver than an unlucky fast one.

Lucky and fast seems to be the likes of MS, FA and LH while unlucky and fast would be KR and MW. MS is a great case in point. He made a lot of his luck but even on the days when he wasn't the quickest, he would pick up places and wins by getting the car over the line. Some say it's luck but us older heads might say it's race craft over speed.

Hondo

4th September 2007, 13:05

Call it what you want, I'd just like to see what the man could do with a decent car that doesn't break.