Fidel Castro dead?

[A.F.F.]

Claims Swedish magazine Norra Skåne in their scoop.

http://www.svd.se/dynamiskt/utrikes/did_16842453.asp

Apparently they say to have confidental information about it and Cuba should inform the world saturday night. If this turns out to be just a rumour, the chief editor Karlsson-bernfalk feel to be tricked.

:rolleyes:

[janneppi]

If it's true, it's not surprise, they've been handing down power to his brother for a while now.

[oily oaf]

'E's not dead, 'e's resting.
FACT!

[DonnieDarco]

I heard from a very unusual source that he popped his clogs sometime last week.

[tinchote]

It had to happen eventually, but unfortunately it looks like his brother with continue his "legacy" :s

[jso1985]

when you're "ill" and not being able to do anything for more than a year, you're either very very sick or you're already dead and they're not telling us...

too bad his brother will continue the dictatorship...

Viva una Cuba libre!!!

[Drew]

My mum's best friend's dog's aunty's hairdresser said that he really died in the bay of the pigs invasion and we've all been fooled since then.

I wonder what it's like to live in Cuba. North Korea, China are always said to be harsh communist regimes but Cuba seems to be a little more relaxed. Maybe a whole lot less organised too.

[jso1985]

Cuba a relaxed regime? I don't think so, Venezuela is a relaxed authoritarian regime for example, you can still do what you want with some limits or belong to the opposition party(and get your job opportunities screwed), Cubans can't even do that

[Azumanga Davo]

'E's not dead, 'e's resting.
FACT!

Pining for the fjords, perhaps?

[oily oaf]

Pining for the fjords, perhaps?

The Cuban Red prefers kipping on his back. ALSO FACT!

[Eki]

The Cuban Red prefers kipping on his back. ALSO FACT!
Because that way they can't burn him face down while he's sleeping?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Cuba a relaxed regime? I don't think so, Venezuela is a relaxed authoritarian regime for example, you can still do what you want with some limits or belong to the opposition party(and get your job opportunities screwed), Cubans can't even do that


JSO, it is always people who never have lived in such conditions that can say things like that....

Cuba aint relaxed, if it was, people wouldn't be tossing themselves onto anything that floats with the faint hope they can get to Florida....

Castro apparently according to official sources is just fine. Ya right....the boy could be worm food by now and no one in Cuba would admit to it if they didn't figure out what they are going to do next. Here is a clue....you hold free elections!!!!! Noooooo, we cant do that. Cuba, it just aint your brother's dicatorship any more.....

[race aficionado]

I hope Fidel is living his last days confortably.
How much more will he last? God knows . . . . and Fidel is a tough cookie, even though many can't digest him, he is a man that has made a difference in this world.
Yes, you can critisize him for some of the things he's done, but also recognize the positives that he has brought (and it's of course your prerogative to even consider if they are indeed postive).
I commend him and the Cuban nation to have been able to survive with the enbargo that they have suffered from for such a long time.

I love Cuba for its culture, its history, it's music, it's enfasis in education, it's advances and practices in Health related issues, and of course, it's people.

Don't call me a commie now . . . easy . . . . just my point of view . . . .

:s mokin:

[oily oaf]

I hope Fidel is living his last days confortably.
How much more will he last? God knows . . . . and Fidel is a tough cookie, even though many can't digest him, he is a man that has made a difference in this world.
Yes, you can critisize him for some of the things he's done, but also recognize the positives that he has brought (and it's of course your prerogative to even consider if they are indeed postive).
I commend him and the Cuban nation to have been able to survive with the enbargo that they have suffered from for such a long time.

I love Cuba for its culture, its history, it's music, it's enfasis in education, it's advances and practices in Health related issues, and of course, it's people.

Don't call me a commie now . . . easy . . . . just my point of view . . . .

:s mokin:


Hehehehehe As a died in the wool old leftie I'm with you Race.
Fidel's rather benign style of communism is light years away from Stalin's "Great Terror" and Mao's "Great Leap Forward"
Nothing particularly great about either of 'em IMHO.
Plus the fact he makes a lovely cigar.
Viva El Revolucion! Viva! :D

(lights pipe and gazes lovingly at wall poster of Che Guevara)

[tinchote]

I wonder what it's like to live in Cuba. North Korea, China are always said to be harsh communist regimes but Cuba seems to be a little more relaxed. Maybe a whole lot less organised too.

There is a famous case in Argentina. In Cuba lives a physician called Hilda Molina, his son fled to Argentina many years ago. Her grandchildren are teenagers by now, and she hasn't been able to meet them, not even once, because the government of Cuba doesn't allow her to leave her country. And this in spite of even formal diplomatic attempts by the (leftist, these days) government of Argentina.

[Eki]

Cuba aint relaxed, if it was, people wouldn't be tossing themselves onto anything that floats with the faint hope they can get to Florida....

It has probably more to do with poverty than with politics. If the US relaxed their economic restrictions on Cuba that have existed for 50 years, Cubans could have a better chance to make a decent living on their home island and not have to toss themselves onto anything.

[tinchote]

It has probably more to do with poverty than with politics. If the US relaxed their economic restrictions on Cuba that have existed for 50 years, Cubans could have a better chance to make a decent living on their home island and not have to toss themselves onto anything.

As I mentioned in my example, it probably has a lot more to do with not being allowed to leave the country than with poverty.

[Eki]

As I mentioned in my example, it probably has a lot more to do with not being allowed to leave the country than with poverty.
If they had a good life at home, not so many would want to leave.

[Breeze]

It has probably more to do with poverty than with politics. If the US relaxed their economic restrictions on Cuba that have existed for 50 years, Cubans could have a better chance to make a decent living on their home island and not have to toss themselves onto anything.

Having lived in south Florida personally and being closely acquainted with Cuban expats and the Cuban exile community there, I can safely and with some authority say that once again, you don't have a clue Senor Eki. Just another cheap shot at the US from our resident hater.


P.S. The US Embargo has little or nothing to do with the poverty in Cuba. Consider how many other developed nations have and maintain good trade relations with Cuba. More than enough to provide an opportunity for prosperity in a free market economy.

[Drew]

Interesting. I assume that over there we fail to hear the bad sides about Cuba, like we hear about China and N. Korea.

Some friends of mine have been to Cuba and said it was wonderful. I assume they went to the cigar factory, the building with Che Guevara on it and then to the bar and stayed there.

[Eki]

Having lived in south Florida personally and being closely acquainted with Cuban expats and the Cuban exile community there, I can safely and with some authority say that once again, you don't have a clue Senor Eki.
Don't you think your authority is a bit one sided? You know only people who have left Cuba because they didn't like it. Of course they tell you bad things about Cuba! It's like going to a Marxist convention, talk to people there and think there's nothing good in capitalism, since everybody badmouths it. Do you know anyone who has decided to stay in Cuba?

[tinchote]

If they had a good life at home, not so many would want to leave.

Eki, it's amazing how much you try and twist things in your efforts to turn anything against the US.

Do you think that if the Finnish government kept everything the same, but passed a law forbidding getting out of the country, you would stay happily there because you "have a good life at home"? :eek:

[Eki]

Eki, it's amazing how much you try and twist things in your efforts to turn anything against the US.

Do you think that if the Finnish government kept everything the same, but passed a law forbidding getting out of the country, you would stay happily there because you "have a good life at home"? :eek:
So, you think it's only a "grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome or a "forbidden fruit" syndrome?

[fandango]

Did anyone see that film documentary "Cuban Rafters" a few years ago? I used to teach English to one of the producers, who told me how the film was allowed to be screened in Cuba because the government felt that it showed the shallow failure of the "American Dream" lifestyle. Then, when it was shown, the main reaction from ordinary people was "Wow, look at all the stuff they have in the US!" Just shows you.

Anyway, while interviewing people in Cuba he asked them what'll happen when Fidel dies. The reaction was shock that he should ask such a question. Everyone knows there's someone watching what you say, so you should too.

[Canada Cornrow]

Interesting. I assume that over there we fail to hear the bad sides about Cuba, like we hear about China and N. Korea.

Some friends of mine have been to Cuba and said it was wonderful. I assume they went to the cigar factory, the building with Che Guevara on it and then to the bar and stayed there.

I believe that's called the "Elvis Tour".

[race aficionado]

As one of the died in the wool old lefties', let me give you some info that I have taken the time to unearth:

fact:
There has indeed been a trade embargo and a travel ban that has existed for almost half a century and it has done nothing to change the Communist regime - but mainly it has hurt the people of Cuba that they are supposed to help.

fact:
Even though some political candidates like H. Clinton and R. Giuliani support the policies on Cuba that have failed for 26 years - there are polls that show that a majority of Cuban-Americans and a whopping 2/3 of all voters nationally agree that the current Cuban policy has failed.
*I know that this one is going to probably ask for a "link please!" reaction but spare me the work. I read this info on the news today. It was printed, so it HAS to be true. :s mokin:

fact:
President Bush has added to the cruelty of the US of A's punishment to the Cuban people.
-The travel restrictions imposed by President Bush distinguish themselves for their unnecessary cruelty and political shortsightedness. They limit family visits to Cuba to once every three years instead of once every year.
Also, the addition of spending limit to the Cuban-American was lowered from $175.oo to $50.oo a day.
-Also, Bush's new sanctions imposed limits to remittances of money to $100.oo per month, and only to "immediate" family members- no aunts, uncles or cousins.
- and to top it all, humanitarian travel-that is, a special trip to visit a gravely ill relative or to attend a funeral of a loved one-is also prohibited.
All in the name of freedom and human rights.

Tincho's story is also a sad one and if it's caused by Cuban's reaction, we can all blame it to the energy created by years of mistrust and disrespect of other peoples ideologies. and this goes by the way, both ways.

I will always respect those that fight for their rights. - and yes, your rights end when they start stepping in mine.

paz carajo!

:s mokin:

[tinchote]

So, you think it's only a "grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome or a "forbidden fruit" syndrome?

I struggle to understand what you are talking about. Cuba is a place where talking against the government can land you in a nice concrete room, or in front of a firing squad. What on Earth is there to defend about that? :confused:

[Drew]

You could blame America for doing so well in promoting capitalism and democracy as to bring down the USSR and winning the Cold War. Cuba used to rely heavily on Soviet subsidies and also relied on the Soviet market to buy its produce. So, its fall caused alot of economical problems for Cuba, due to loss of subsidies and market.

But blaming the USA like that is extremely indirect and you may as well point the blame to the USSR and to Cuba for relying so heavily on subsidies and on the Soviet market.

I've always thought of Cuba to be quite a slow place where life is lived at a slow pace. Not much happens, not much changes. People drink rum and dance alot. Nobody talks openly about politics and people are just happy with what they have. The weather's nice except in hurricane season. Seems like my kind of place.

My Spanish teacher told me this "Cuba tiene todo lo que se podría querer, pero no hay nada que tener" "Cuba has everything you could want, but there's nothing to have"

I suppose the fact that it isn't too kind to its people rarely comes into my head isn't a good thing.

[race aficionado]

fact:
Even though some political candidates like H. Clinton and R. Giuliani support the policies on Cuba that have failed for 26 years -
:s mokin:

I of course meant 46 years . . . . . :rolleyes:
it's the old lefty's CRS syndrome.

whatever.

:s mokin:

[Roamy]

Sh!t get over it - Bring in the Cohibas - Let the people go back and forth!!

[oily oaf]

Sh!t get over it - Bring in the Cohibas - Let the people go back and forth!!

Damn right baby!
I love Cohibas. I once ate a whole mess of 'em after a few tokes on some fine "Mary Jane" and a couple o' shots of Kentucky sippin' red eye.
(lifts leg and slaps thigh resoundingly before firing 6 gun into ceiling)) Hot Damn!

[Daniel]

I struggle to understand what you are talking about. Cuba is a place where talking against the government can land you in a nice concrete room, or in front of a firing squad. What on Earth is there to defend about that? :confused:
Yeah but it's not the USA. Perhaps (without a doubt) that's what he's talking about?

[Eki]

I struggle to understand what you are talking about. Cuba is a place where talking against the government can land you in a nice concrete room, or in front of a firing squad. What on Earth is there to defend about that? :confused:
What I meant is that if everything in your life is good, but you can't talk against your government, do you really want to leave your native country so that you can talk against your government? Is that what people want the most?

[Eki]

P.S. The US Embargo has little or nothing to do with the poverty in Cuba. Consider how many other developed nations have and maintain good trade relations with Cuba. More than enough to provide an opportunity for prosperity in a free market economy.
It does. The US is a large market next to Cuba. During the Soviet times, about 25% of Finnish exports went to the neighboring Soviet Union. The collapse of the Soviet Union caused a huge unemployment problem in Finland. The US could be to Cuba what the Soviet Union was to Finland.

[tinchote]

What I meant is that if everything in your life is good, but you can't talk against your government, do you really want to leave your native country so that you can talk against your government? Is that what people want the most?

So basically you are saying that as long as "life is good", freedom and human rights don't matter? :eek:

And you didn't answer my question: if everything was the same in Finland, but the government was a dictatorship where you cannot talk against the government and you cannot leave the country, would you be ok with it?

[Eki]

So basically you are saying that as long as "life is good", freedom and human rights don't matter? :eek:
That's not what I said. I said I don't believe political freedom is the only thing that matters.



And you didn't answer my question: if everything was the same in Finland, but the government was a dictatorship where you cannot talk against the government and you cannot leave the country, would you be ok with it?
I probably wouldn't be OK with it, but I don't know if it would be a reason enough to leave Finland. Only about 60%-70% of Finns vote anyway, so politics can't be the most important thing in life for at least 30%-40% of Finns.

[SOD]

Cuba's just a political football.

The CIA did try to kill Castro on numerous occasions, that's a documented fact.

[jso1985]

advances and practices in Health related issues



I'm not too sure if they're really that great in medicine and health issues, since Morales became president here, he has brought around 1000 Cuban doctors(why he didn't hired Bolivian ones is something we're still angry at, but that's another topic on how "great" is our president), have worked close to some of them when doing practices from my med school, honestly I feel I know as much and sometimes more about medicine than them and I'm only in 3rd year! if you're going to work in rural areas at leats study something about its endemical diseases!.
They are either sending us their worst or that's the reason why Castro's personal doctor is actually Spanish...


That's not what I said. I said I don't believe political freedom is the only thing that matters.



but political freedom isn't the only freedom Cubans can't have, honeslty I can't see a "good life" anywhere if you don't have basic freedoms

[Mark in Oshawa]

Lets establish a few undeniable facts about Cuba:

1) People are willing to risk DEATH to leave it and take the most amazing contraptions to see to do it. For THAT, you have to wonder about just how bad things are inside the country.

2)Despite Eki's best attempts, lets not blame the whole situation on the US. Why? Living conditions sucked in Cuba long before the Russians cut off the money. The USSR poured more money into Cuba than people realize, and with other western nation pouring in investments to the hotel business (Most of the resorts at Varadero and the like are either Canadian or German operated) and other industries, one cant say they haven't dealt with the outside world. Other than the US, just about everyone trades with Cuba, and yet it still struggles to provide much for its citizens.

3) The education system and medical system are NOT as great as Cuban propaganda would proclaim. As JSO is pointing out, the students he is dealing with down in Bolivia are no great shakes. Castro sent away to Spain for a doc, yet for years we heard about how wonderful their medical system is and that it is top drawer. Sure it is....so great the leader of the country cant trust it.

4) Che Guevara is a hero. GREAT MYTH. The guy was a common thug who executed more people per capita than even Stalin. The reason he is dead now is because he served his purpose and Castro had him rubbed out Che was just a jerk...with a great PR campaign written by Castro. Cuba needed a martyr.

5) Another myth was that Cuba was a hell hole before the revolution. Castro has spread the myth that he has liberated Cuba from gangsters and criminals. Not so. Batista was no great shakes as a leader, and the mob may have run some of the casinos in Cuba, but lets face the reality, Vegas was once run by the mob and now it isn't. I would wager the "Communist Mob" that has run Cuba since the revolution is every bit as corrupt. The investment the Americans would have continued to pour into Cuba would have been greater than the penalty of having to play communist politics. That, and most of Cuba's best and brightest, not to mention entrepreuneurs and business people took their money, their experiences and know how to Florida. Don't anyone try to spread the fiction that Cuba is better off in the fact of THAT reality.

6) Last myth? Cuba is harmless. Ya, right it is. Castro spent a lot of money exporting his army to Angola in the 70's to support their revolution, not to mention helping in Nicaragua with the Sandinista's and the aborted attempt to take on things in Grenada. What a poor nation with no foreign capital outside of the USSR is doing spending hard cash on sending their army over to fight or influence someone's elses battles? It is just irresponsbile and naive. It is also just showing what a puppet they were of the USSR; which of course, was such a lovely enlightened nation that they encouraged the use of assassins, had gulags and thought the solution to any screw up on their part was to deny it ever happened.

No, the sooner the Castro's are out of Cuba and the people there have a chance to try on capitalism and democracy, the better. Unlike many Carribbean nations, Cuba has enough natural resources, land and people to maybe grow an economy outside of tourism. What is more, they will have all the help in the world from the US if the democratic route is taken.

The embargo didn't help Cuba, and I think it was a political football in the US (no party wanted to lose the Cuban expat vote), but lets just drop the fiction that Cuba is starving because of it. The ingenuity of the Cuban people, coupled with the rest of the world trading with them says to me the problem still is the Cuban government.

To paraphrase an election slogan of Clinton's : IT's THE COMMUNISM STUPID!

[oily oaf]

The mighty Che Guevara a common thug???!!!!!!! :eek:
By The Lord Harry Sirrah! If I didn't know better I'd say that you've been mercilessly brainwashed by warmongering, imperialist lackeys :mad:

I actually saw the great man in that film about Eva Peron starring Maddona and I can state quite categorically that he's a lovely bloke, with a fine singing voice and who always looks nice and smart in his jauntily angled beret :bandit:
Take it back sir. Take it back I say!

Ps In an earlier contribution to this thread I stated that I was a "died in the wool leftie" This may lead some of you to believe that I was killed whilst playing "Ladies and Gentlemen" with a common beast of the field.
What I meant to say of course was "dyed in the wool leftie".................................probably.
(marches purposefully towards sheep pen at London City Farm sweating profusely)

[Camelopard]

Lets establish a few more undeniable facts about Castro and Cuba.

Fact: Castro was not a Communist when he seized power, he was pushed into the Soviet Bloc by a USA that was not interested in dealing with him.
A very concise version can be found here:

http://www.fsmitha.com/h2/ch24t63.html

Some highlights include: "Tourism was Cuba's second largest industry - before tourism had become common for the average U.S. citizen. People with money went to Cuba to enjoy its fine beaches - for their exclusive use - for the casino gambling, lewd shows and open prostitution of all kinds. A percentage of the money won from the tourist industries went straight to Batista, and Batista paid his go-betweens well."
Interesting that you make the comment about the amount of money that Tourism brings Cuba today in relation the the above statement.

Some more: Eisenhower preferred to go and play golf rather than meet with Castro when he was invited to the US in 1958. Vice president Nixon met with him, one wonders how different things may have been if Eisenhower had not rebuffed Castro.

"Castro laid a wreath at the Lincoln Memorial, and he was invited to meet the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, telling them that he would not expropriate the property of Americans and that he was against dictatorships and for a free press."

"Castro returned to Cuba having said to a Social Democrat friend that he was not a communist because communism was the dictatorship of a single class and meant hatred and class struggle. On television he told the Cuban people that extremists had no place in the Cuban revolution. He appeared to be a free-enterprise nationalist but in search of remaking Cuban society."

"Castro instituted agrarian reform. With exceptions having to do with productivity, estates larger than 1,000 acres were subject to expropriation, with compensation paid to the owners in 20-year bonds at 4.5 percent annual interest - higher interest than MacArthur's land reform in Japan, and repayment faster than the land reform in Taiwan. In the future, land could be bought only by Cubans; after the harvest of 1960, sugar plantations would have to be owned by Cubans; and agricultural holdings were to be no less than 67 acres. Sugar company stocks fell on the New York Stock Exchange. U.S. executives protested to the U.S. government. More talk erupted in the U.S. about communism in Cuba, and the Eisenhower administration argued with Cuba over its new agrarian reform."

"In March, a French ship, carrying a shipment of Belgian small arms, exploded in Havana harbor, killing dozens of workers and soldiers. Castro publicly accused the CIA of sabotage, and the U.S. protested the accusation. Also in March, Eisenhower ordered the CIA to train Cuban exiles for an invasion of Cuba - with Batistianos forbidden to join the force. Eisenhower approved $13 million for the project.

"Soviet tankers arrived with crude oil. The three oil refineries in Cuba - the Esso and Texaco refineries and a refinery owned by the British - refused to refine the oil. Castro nationalized the refineries. Castro saw the U.S. as having declared economic war on Cuba. And the following month - July - the Cuban government passed a nationalization law providing for the expropriation of foreign holdings in Cuba. Two days later, President Eisenhower reduced the purchase of Cuban sugar by 95 percent, cutting off 80 percent of Cuban exports to the United States. Then the Soviet Union announced that it was willing to buy the sugar that had been destined for the United States."
"On August 16, members of the CIA launched their first assassination attempt against Castro, with poisoned cigars."

and one last quote from this site:

"Kennedy replied that he had 'never suggested that Cuba was lost except for the present.' And he criticized Nixon for describing the Batista dictatorship as competent and stable in a press conference in Havana in 1955, a dictatorship, Kennedy added, that 'killed over twenty thousand Cubans in seven years' - an apparent reference to the years 1952 to 1959."


So Che was a jerk he killed more people per capita that Stallin, can we have some references please?

The following has come from a site in the UK used by people studying for their GSCEs and I post this in relation to your points 2, 3 and 5.

http://www.revision-notes.co.uk/revision/63.html

to be continued

[Eki]

[font=Helv][size=84]Lets establish a few more undeniable facts about Castro and Cuba.
Fact: Castro was not a Communist when he seized power, he was pushed into the Soviet Bloc by a USA that was not interested in dealing with him.
That's what I've heard too. The US didn't want to be friends with Castro, so he had to find friends elsewhere, and the Soviet Union was a logical alternative back then.

[Camelopard]

Continued, pinched from the afore mentioned GSCE site. If things were so bad why didn't more than 125,000 people flee Cuba in 1980?

http://www.revision-notes.co.uk/revision/64.html

Many people also flee from Cuba
Especially during the so-called Mariel exodus (April-Sept. 1980):[list=1:1jqq0f8a]
Fidel Castro angry that Peruvian Embassy wouldn’t turn in 6 refugees[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Allowed all Cubans who wanted to, to leave the country[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Various country’s started to accept refugees[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Þ 125000 people fled from Cuba during that time
Most fled through Mariel port[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Not to forget:
During American Revolution 10 percent of population fled[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/list:o:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Achievements:

Great record in:[list=1:1jqq0f8a]
Employment[list=1:1jqq0f8a]
Lowest Unemployment figures in Latin America[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Equal distribution of income[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Public health
Basically no hunger and starvation[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Free medical care[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Lowest doctor/patient ratio in Latin America[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Infant mortality rate (11.9% in 1989) among lowest in world[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Life expectancy 75 years (58.2 in III world countries)[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Education
Free for all[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Educational budget 7% of GNP[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Illiteracy wiped out[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Population average of ninth-grade education[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Standard of living[list=1]
Inequality dramatically reduced since Batista[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Lower classes especially benefited:[list=1:1jqq0f8a]
Rents controlled, not more than 10% of income[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Fair rationing of food[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Income increased from $100 (1959) to $550-$850 (1977)[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
State farms furnished with televisions and relaxation area[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Þ No beggars[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/list:o:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/list:o:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/list:o:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Cuba and the World[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Cuba sent much military aid to third world countries - helped:
Algerian independence[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Guerrilla groups in Zaire[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Portuguese African colonies[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Tanzania during 1960’s[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Death of Ché Guevara and bad economic situation limited aid in 60’s[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Improved US-Cuba relations and prosperous economy increased it again—helped:
Eleven thousand Cubans helped Ethiopia against Somalia invasion 1978[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Fifty thousand Cubans helped Angola against rebels supported by US etc.[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Cuban-Anglo army defeated South Africa at Cuito Cuanavale:
Treaty of 1988 allowed independence of Namibia[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/list:o:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Cuba now engages in civil aid with 16000 Cuban:[list=1]
Doctors, teachers, construction engineers, agronomists, economists[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Serves 32 third world countries[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Includes free education in Cuba[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Þ Motive "International solidarity" and providing foreign currency[list=1:1jqq0f8a]
Fees on ability to pay[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Some fore free[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Foreign construction projects major income producers[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/list:o:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Good relations throughout
Especially with Latin America[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Vote into UN security council with largest percentage ever[/*:m:1jqq0f8a]
Attempts to normalise relations with US have not been returned[/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/*:m:1jqq0f8a][/list:o:1jqq0f8a]

[Camelopard]

Time to go home, I'll post some more stuff later.

[Camelopard]

Whoops, already found a mistake of mine, that is Castro was invited to the US in 1959 by the American Society of Newspaper Editors, not 1958.

[Daniel]

That's what I've heard too. The US didn't want to be friends with Castro, so he had to find friends elsewhere, and the Soviet Union was a logical alternative back then.
Didn't the Finns fight a few wars so that they didn't become part of the USSR? :rolleyes:

[Eki]

Didn't the Finns fight a few wars so that they didn't become part of the USSR? :rolleyes:
But after the war Finland became friends with the USSR. Both Finns and the Soviets could accept that. The US has never forgiven the Cuban revolution, just like they haven't forgiven the Iranian revolution and only after 25 years after the Vietnam war they have started to improve diplomatic relationships with Vietnam. I think the biggest problem with the US is that they never forgive and forget their setbacks. The wars against Finland didn't go as the Soviets had planned, but they were willing to negotiate a peace where they got little something to save their face and move on. The US is never willing to negotiate, they want total surrendering, all or nothing.

[Daniel]

I don't think Finns particularly like Russians and from what I saw at the rally I can understand why.

Why does every post of yours have to end up with some negative point on the US? If I was to go by what you say, the USA must be a truly horrible and evil country and the USSR (it's basically the USSR again under Vlad) is a loving and joyful place where people can speak their mind and live a comfortable life and so on........

[Eki]

I don't think Finns particularly like Russians and from what I saw at the rally I can understand why.


You don't have to like somebody to get along with him.

Let me elaborate a bit what I said about the "only logical choice": Cuba next to the USA is a bit like Finland was next to the Soviet. They are both small countries and sometimes need help from bigger and more powerful countries. In WW2, Finland first tried to be friends with the West, but the West chose rather to be friends with the Soviets, so the only logical choice for Finland was to be friends with the Nazi-Germany. In the 1950's, the USA didn't want to be friends with Castro's Cuba, so the only big and powerful friend available to Cuba was the USSR. After WW2, the Soviet Union accepted that Finland had a non-communist political system different from the one in the USSR and was willing to work and cooperate for mutual benefit. It turned out rather good for Finland, and I don't think the Soviets had much to complain either. On the contrary, the US refused to accept the new government and political system different from their own in Cuba and has always been very hostile towards them. Cuba has suffered for it, and I don't think it has benefited the US either.

[Eki]

You don't have to like somebody to get along with him.

Havamal has some good advice related to that:

http://www.simnet.is/gardarj/havamal.htm

44.
If you find a friend you fully trust
And wish for his good-will,
exchange thoughts, exchange gifts,
Go often to his house.

45.
If you deal with another you don't trust
But wish for his good-will,
Be fair in speech but false in thought
And give him lie for lie.

46.
Even with one you ill-trust
And doubt what he means to do,
False words with fair smiles
May get you the gift you desire.

[tinchote]

So Che was a jerk he killed more people per capita that Stallin, can we have some references please?


Just explain to me what he was doing in Angola, and what he was doing in Bolivia when he was killed.

After answering that, please Google "Hilda Molina" and tell me what you think about it.

[tinchote]

They are both small countries and sometimes need help from bigger and more powerful countries.

So, according to that, every country in the World would have been aligned either with the USA or the USSR? That's not case. In fact, of all countries in Latin America Cuba was the only one affiliated with the USSR, and none of them (I don't count Puerto Rico as a country) has been affiliated with the USA.

It is perfectly possible to have commercial and/or militar ties, without a full alignment. There was no need for Castro to become communist and embrace the whole "red parafernalia" just because the USA didn't want to be an ally.

[Daniel]

Just explain to me what he was doing in Angola, and what he was doing in Bolivia when he was killed.

After answering that, please Google "Hilda Molina" and tell me what you think about it.
Tinchote. Surely a guy who is on so many t-shirts and such can't be a bad guy. Perhaps he was in Bolivia and Angola to preach his message of peace and love :D

[Eki]

So, according to that, every country in the World would have been aligned either with the USA or the USSR? That's not case. In fact, of all countries in Latin America Cuba was the only one affiliated with the USSR, and none of them (I don't count Puerto Rico as a country) has been affiliated with the USA.

It is perfectly possible to have commercial and/or militar ties, without a full alignment. There was no need for Castro to become communist and embrace the whole "red parafernalia" just because the USA didn't want to be an ally.
Neutral relationships between the US and Cuba would have been sufficient, no need for them to be allies. Castro's Cuba has always been under a threat from the US, it's no wonder if they wanted someone to protect them. Finland chose seemingly friendly or neutral relationship with the Soviet Union to protect itself from Soviet aggression, since the US was too far and had proved not to be helpful in the past so they couldn't be trusted to help in the future either.

[Daniel]

Neutral relationships between the US and Cuba would have been sufficient, no need for them to be allies. Castro's Cuba has always been under a threat from the US, it's no wonder if they wanted someone to protect them. Finland chose seemingly friendly or neutral relationship with the Soviet Union to protect itself from Soviet aggression, since the US was too far and had proved not to be helpful in the past so they couldn't be trusted to help in the future either.
Oh yes because America could have quite easily gone to war with it's ally Russia to protect Finland while the German's attacked Britain and made an invasion of Europe practically impossible from the West. Yeah I bet that would have ****ing worked real well Eki. I don't think badly of Finland for siding with Germany at all in WW2. An alliance with Germany protected it's interests more than an alliance with the Allies. Your comments are extremely absurd and ill thought out ones. OMFG Finland is evil! They were on the side of the Germans in WW2!!!! I'm never going back to Finland!

[Mark in Oshawa]

The reference that I made was from a book by Alvaro Vargas Llosa entitled "The Che Guevara Myth and the Future of Liberty." He was a guest on a few talk shows in Toronto one week when the book came to Canada, and he spent a lot of time telling why he was saying the things he was.

One must get past the convenient anti-US crap on why Cuba is the way it is, and debunking the myth of Che is as good a place as any to start.

Cossie, I am sure I spent all day digging, I likely could find some neat facts that would look as impressive to the naive observer as yours does, but lets break this down into hard truths shall we?

One, people don't risk their LIVES to leave good nations with proper health care, modern facilities and political freedoms. Cuba has people trying to leave every day by this manner. The fact they cannot get on the plane and leave ought to tell you something.

Two, Castro took power at the end of a gun. That by itself doesn't condemn him if he then turned the nation over to the people to elect their own leaders, but Castro liked the job so much he wont let go of it even from a death bed. Surely you do NOT think this is because he is such a swell fellow and everyone loves him do you? That my friend is a dictator, and I think I have read enough about history to know that whether he claims he is a Communist or a Fascist, the results for the people of the country are the same.

Third, don't tell me about how the US is starving those people to death. Sorry, What the US is doing may not be very logical, or maybe good business wise, but the fact remains the EU trades with Cuba, Canada trades with Cuba, Venezuela trades with Cuba, just about everyone BUT the United States trades with Cuba. This isn't North Korea here we are talking about where they are an isolated hell hole. Yet Cubans lack such obvious things as aspirins, toilet paper and cough medicine. This, in the supposed home of the best health care system in the world, or so the propaganda would tell me. Ya right, that is why Castro sends out for specialists when it is his @ss in the hospital right?

Four, if you want to believe the myth that Castro wasn't a communist when he started, that is fine, but spare me the rhetoric on how committed he was to democracy too. That is crap. Even Daniel Ortega, leader of the Nicaraguan revolution turned around and eventually freed up his nation for elections, and he too was in the USSR mailing list. Until the money dried up.....Castro mean while still stuck to his "revolution". The best thing he could have done for the country is just stepped down and let an election occur. Let people organize. Let people have a say. There is NO reason for any of this, except that Castro refused to do it because he wasn't done with the job of "El Presidente". What is more, getting in bed with the USSR implies you agree with all of their tenets. Moscow wasn't giving money to Castro or placing missles in Cuba if the nation involved wasn't "reliable". Castro didn't go from democrat to Communist over night people. It wasn't because the US didn't love him he did this. It was all part of the plan, and there is a REASON the US never backed this man from the start. It was because he IS a Communist....

Five, and lastly, please explain to me what Che was doing in Angola and all these other places he was in. Explain to me what he was doing in these nations and tell me why he always had a gun with him? There is a great industry of myth around this guy, the brutal realities are he was a henchman for Castro, until he became a liability, and then he was rubbed out by the great leader, who then turned around and told the world how wonderful Che is. Most of the world seems to want to buy it, but as Mr Llosa has put it, Che was just the poster child for a great PR campaign.

Castro and his disciple Chavez are great at PR and spin. Going to the US, being defiant, giving things to the poor in other nations (while ignoring their own poor), allowing interviews with friendly western journalists (while denying the free press at home such rights) is all part of the spin. Some of you are gullable enough to believe it, but what I stated above are questions no one is answering yet......

[race aficionado]

We can all google ourselves back and fourth and quote "this" and "that" that he or she said - and it will end up with who shouts the loudest.

I have my personal oppinions about El Che, about Cuba, Fidel, and I will keep them that way.

All I hope for is that in this heavily polarized world, the world leaders will work hard and try to find unity in diversity, that they apply the golden rule and that someday soon, the world that is envisioned by dreamers as myself - and I'm sure some of you think that I am a naive dreamer- starts manifesting itself.

I have as one of my desires to visit Cuba some day, even if the US government doesn't allow me to and I will 'brake the law" and travel via Canada or Central/South America.

When Castro does pass away, it will be fascinating to see what will indeed happen in that Caribbean Island Nation. Hopefully we will allow them to make their own decisions and not jump in to "help".

Viva Cuba and it's people! :s mokin:

[SOD]

And Communism has to be put down ruthlessly, see Korea, Vietnam, The Contras (who by the way were funded illegally by the USA and giuess hwo is the current democratically elected president of Nicaragua?)

And Mark, McCarthy os long cold in his grave. :yawn:




I found the irony in this piece to be very funny and ironic:

"Castro and his disciple Chavez are great at PR and spin. Going to the US, being defiant, giving things to the poor in other nations (while ignoring their own poor), allowing interviews with friendly western journalists (while denying the free press at home such rights) is all part of the spin. Some of you are gullable enough to believe it, but what I stated above are questions no one is answering yet......"

[Eki]

OMFG Finland is evil! They were on the side of the Germans in WW2!!!! I'm never going back to Finland!
You have the right for your opinions, just like I have for mine.

[Eki]

I have as one of my desires to visit Cuba some day, even if the US government doesn't allow me to and I will 'brake the law" and travel via Canada or Central/South America.

The US doesn't allow you to travel where you want to? According to tinchote, that's one of the worst human rights violations there is.

[Mark in Oshawa]

And Communism has to be put down ruthlessly, see Korea, Vietnam, The Contras (who by the way were funded illegally by the USA and giuess hwo is the current democratically elected president of Nicaragua?)

And Mark, McCarthy os long cold in his grave. :yawn:




I found the irony in this piece to be very funny and ironic:

"Castro and his disciple Chavez are great at PR and spin. Going to the US, being defiant, giving things to the poor in other nations (while ignoring their own poor), allowing interviews with friendly western journalists (while denying the free press at home such rights) is all part of the spin. Some of you are gullable enough to believe it, but what I stated above are questions no one is answering yet......"

SOD, for a guy in the UK to be talking about how wonderful communism may be, is sort of like us men talking about giving birth. We can only know about the experience in the abstract. I find the people who support thugs like Castro and Chavez the most enthusiastically are people who live in democracies where you are free to have the right to support or denounce anything, rights that are NOT given in Castro's Cuba. That, my friend is Irony.

Don't call me a McCarthy clone either. I think the US embargo against Cuba is stupid when they fell all overthemselves to talk to China in the 70's. I also think Ortega being elected in Nicaragua is fine, as long he can be un-elected just as easy, and he doesn't deny a free press and basic freedoms. I have no problem with any group of people electing a left wing crank who can run their country into the ground as long as they can un-elect them, and it isn't my country. The people of Cuba don't get a choice....they have had to live with Castro for 50 years now. Again, show me a leader that could stay in power that long without being at the point of a gun. It DOESNT HAPPEN.

[Eki]

Oh yes because America could have quite easily gone to war with it's ally Russia to protect Finland while the German's attacked Britain and made an invasion of Europe practically impossible from the West.
If they put other countries ahead of Finland then, we can't trust they won't do it the next time too. That's why I think it's the best for a Finn to just trust the diplomatic skills of Finnish politicians and the strength and fighting spirit of the Finnish military, and not for example join NATO and trust them to protect you when push comes to shove.

[race aficionado]

The US doesn't allow you to travel where you want to? According to tinchote, that's one of the worst human rights violations there is.

yep, and Tincho is right.
Apparently I am not allowed to spend my hard earned money and specially in a place that is not allowed to thrive financially because, oh my God! a type of government different than ours, and in this case, a communist one, should not succeed! it will make us look bad.

message to the US president: boy, do we look bad.


:s mokin:

[tinchote]

The US doesn't allow you to travel where you want to? According to tinchote, that's one of the worst human rights violations there is.


Of course it is! Just show me where I said it's ok.

And it's by no means the only human rights violation the USA makes. Now, that doesn't make every one of USA's enemies a faultless country. You see, that's the difference: I think that it is wrong to restrict citizens' freedom, by any government. You, on the other hand, are always quick to condenm the USA but you don't think that what Cuba does is wrong.

And, have you googled "Hilda Molina"? What do you think about it?

[Mark in Oshawa]

yep, and Tincho is right.
Apparently I am not allowed to spend my hard earned money and specially in a place that is not allowed to thrive financially because, oh my God! a type of government different than ours, and in this case, a communist one, should not succeed! it will make us look bad.

message to the US president: boy, do we look bad.


:s mokin:


Race, it is a dumb embargo, and you can come through Toronto and go to Cuba. Many Americans do it all the time. That said, spare me the fiction that Cuba is a victim.....

Cuba is led by a dictator. Full stop. He imposes restrictions and controls his nation in ways no one in the free world would tolearate, and THAT my friends is just wrong. Whether you agree or disagree with the US embargo, don't change the station to how rotten the US is for not trading with Cuba. Cuba is NOT a free country, and countries that choose to do deny their citizens rights to the extent that Cuba does are not to be admired, and people should cease and desist doing so......

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tin, I looked it up. I find it amusing that someone who benefited by the system Castro set up is now being crucified by Castro. Why? Simple, because she actually believed in the concept of the revolution and not selling one's skills for US dollars to foreigners to benefit the state. So now she is persona non grata, and Castro wont tolerate anyone asking questions about her either. She cant travel to Argentina to see her son, (who I notice was in no hurry to come "home". I guess Argentina is a better place than Cuba) and because she wont play Castro's game. If George W. Bush did anything so heinous, the same admirers of Castro would be burning Dubya in effigy over it.

That is ok, Molina is still alive and not in a political prison.....I wonder how well Castro treats people who NEVER agreed with him..oh right, Che shot a bunch of those back in the 60's...

[Eki]

You, on the other hand, are always quick to condenm the USA but you don't think that what Cuba does is wrong.

That's not what I think. I just think that you should give them some slack, and that the choice of political system and government in Cuba should be decided by the Cubans, not by Americans or anyone else.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That's not what I think. I just think that you should give them some slack, and that the choice of political system and government in Cuba should be decided by the Cubans, not by Americans or anyone else.

Eki, they didn't choose Castro, he imposed himself on the nation for over 45 years now. The Americans didn't put an embargo on Venezuela nor have they dumped on Nicaragua for Ortega being elected. Simple really, because they were ELECTED. The bad old days of the CIA trying to dump the country into a favourable leader are done with.....

Castro is a dinosaur, and the world is better off without him, and for sure Cuba is going to be better off in time without him.

[Eki]

Eki, they didn't choose Castro, he imposed himself on the nation for over 45 years now.
There's no way he could have done it by himself. If he had tried it without any support he would have ended up like Norton I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_A._Norton

Castro must have had support.

[race aficionado]

People have the government they deserve, and that goes for us US of A citizens.
We put him up there.
And as for the Cuban people, Castro did take over and his people haven't put him down yet. If the people did want him out they would have made themselves heard, and I'm not talking about the Cubans that are now confortably living in Florida. If the Cubans would have wanted another revolución they would have done it or would be doing it right now starting in their own neighborhoods. Haven't seen anything on CNN yet.

If you can build the most amazing rafts and floating contraptions to get out of the island, I'm sure you can manage to get yourself some ammo and weapons to try to clean house if you think its needed.

Not to change the topic here, but now that we are talking country leaders, I wonder how long it would have taken the Iraki people to change their own government . . . that is, if we would have given them the time to do so.

And now that I am in my ranting, notice how the other governments of the world are allowing us to change our government leaders even though they have been hurt by our government's decisions. No one has threatened to invade us so that they can help us in this mayor rut that we are in. Of course, it helps that we have big guns and are willing to use them.

And please, don't tell me that we are not in deep sh!t in this great country of ours, and yes, stay out, it is our problem and we will deal with it.

:s mokin:

[Mark in Oshawa]

There's no way he could have done it by himself. If he had tried it without any support he would have ended up like Norton I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_A._Norton

Castro must have had support.

Hey, Lenin had support when came to power, so did Stalin, but in the end, most of the people who supported them were either bootlickers or on the wrong end of firing squads if they didn't stay with the program. Eki, a communist take over is not the same thing as winning an election. I hate to burst your bubble, but Castro is a thug. He isn't the same as some crackpot wandering the streets of San Francisico claiming he was emperor. Castro rallied people behind them promising them the moon, but when you have to look at Cuba 4 decades after his revolution, where are they really?

[Eki]

Hey, Lenin had support when came to power, so did Stalin, but in the end, most of the people who supported them were either bootlickers or on the wrong end of firing squads if they didn't stay with the program. Eki, a communist take over is not the same thing as winning an election. I hate to burst your bubble, but Castro is a thug. He isn't the same as some crackpot wandering the streets of San Francisico claiming he was emperor. Castro rallied people behind them promising them the moon, but when you have to look at Cuba 4 decades after his revolution, where are they really?
Castro made it because the Cubans weren't happy with Batista, Lenin and Stalin made it because Russians weren't happy with the Czar, Hitler made it because the Germans weren't happy with the way the Allied treated Germany after WW1 and Ajatollah Khomeini made it because the Iranians weren't happy with the Shah. You have to have enough disgruntled people before you can take power.

[tinchote]

Castro made it because the Cubans weren't happy with Batista, Lenin and Stalin made it because Russians weren't happy with the Czar, Hitler made it because the Germans weren't happy with the way the Allied treated Germany after WW1 and Ajatollah Khomeini made it because the Iranians weren't happy with the Shah. You have to have enough disgruntled people before you can take power.

Of course, but that doesn't justify any of them later as a dictator. And that was your point, that having had support of the people legitimated him in power.

Besides, it's public knowledge that Castro is a thug: he stole the 1 trillion dollar bill from Mr. Burns ;) :p :

[jso1985]

Continued, pinched from the afore mentioned GSCE site. If things were so bad why didn't more than 125,000 people flee Cuba in 1980?



sorry but I have to disagree with some of that points, most of my inside info comes from my mother as she was in Havana and Santiago de Cuba in 1999, she was a former member of the Bolivian Socialist party in the 70's, yet after that trip she's having a hard time to stand up for Cuba anymore

Many people also flee from Cuba - around 25% of the country is out on exhile status
Especially during the so-called Mariel exodus (April-Sept. 1980):[list=1:29u6zvvl]
Fidel Castro angry that Peruvian Embassy wouldn’t turn in 6 refugees[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Allowed all Cubans who wanted to, to leave the country not true, many of them weren't just allowed[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Various country’s started to accept refugees[/*:m:29u6zvvl]otherwise they would been shot or put on jail [/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Þ 125000 people fled from Cuba during that timedo you think that's not much?
Most fled through Mariel port[/*:m:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Not to forget:
During American Revolution 10 percent of population fled[/*:m:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl][/list:o:29u6zvvl] so is the 10% of Bolivia living abroad, yet we never claim to be a "paradise" unlike Cuba[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Achievements:

Great record in:[list=1:29u6zvvl]
Employment[list=1:29u6zvvl]
Lowest Unemployment figures in Latin America[/*:m:29u6zvvl] yep the goverment tells you what to do and gives some sugar and rum in exchange[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Equal distribution of income if you keep everyone poor, easy task[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Public health
Basically no hunger and starvation not true[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Free medical care true, but as already discussed, probably not the best service[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Lowest doctor/patient ratio in Latin America[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Infant mortality rate (11.9% in 1989) among lowest in world[/b] official figures only come from the Havana area[/b][/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Life expectancy 75 years (58.2 in III world countries)[/*:m:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Education
Free for all so is here and in many parts of the world[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Educational budget 7% of GNPprobably the 93% left goes into financing left parties and guerrilas in LatinAmerica[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Illiteracy wiped out[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Population average of ninth-grade education[/*:m:29u6zvvl] if everything is free, shouldn't they have 12th grade education?[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Standard of living[list=1]
Inequality dramatically reduced since Batista if everyone's not allowed to have something and kept poor...[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Lower classes especially benefited:[list=1:29u6zvvl] cause the higher classes had to give everything they had to the goverment
Rents controlled, not more than 10% of income[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Fair rationing of food[/b] sugar and rum for free to everyone!, what else you need?[/b][/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Income increased from $100 (1959) to $550-$850 (1977)[/b] yet they can't buy anything they want [/b][/*:m:29u6zvvl]
State farms furnished with televisions and relaxation area not for the workers[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Þ No beggars[/*:m:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl][/list:o:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl][/list:o:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl][/list:o:29u6zvvl] not true[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Cuba and the World[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Cuba sent much military aid to third world countries - helped: just like USA in Iraq and Afghanistan, true they're such nice guys
Algerian independence[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Guerrilla groups in Zaire[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Portuguese African colonies[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Tanzania during 1960’s[/*:m:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Death of Ché Guevara and bad economic situation limited aid in 60’s[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Improved US-Cuba relations and prosperous economy increased it again—helped:
Eleven thousand Cubans helped Ethiopia against Somalia invasion 1978[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Fifty thousand Cubans helped Angola against rebels supported by US etc.[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Cuban-Anglo army defeated South Africa at Cuito Cuanavale:
Treaty of 1988 allowed independence of Namibia[/*:m:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl][/list:o:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Cuba now engages in civil aid with 16000 Cuban:[list=1] not true, they fool their allies like Bolivia to hire their proffesionlas instead of local one
Doctors, teachers, construction engineers, agronomists, economists[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Serves 32 third world countries[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Includes free education in Cuba not true[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Þ Motive "International solidarity" and providing foreign currency[list=1:29u6zvvl]
Fees on ability to pay[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Some fore free[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Foreign construction projects major income producers[/*:m:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl][/list:o:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Good relations throughout
Especially with Latin America[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Vote into UN security council with largest percentage ever[/*:m:29u6zvvl]
Attempts to normalise relations with US have not been returned[/*:m:29u6zvvl][/*:m:29u6zvvl][/list:o:29u6zvvl]

[Eki]

Of course, but that doesn't justify any of them later as a dictator. And that was your point, that having had support of the people legitimated him in power.

Besides, it's public knowledge that Castro is a thug: he stole the 1 trillion dollar bill from Mr. Burns ;) :p :
My point is, if enough Cubans aren't happy with Castro, they can make a new revolution. You know, like the Romanians did in 1989. Aren't revolutions one of Latin Americans' favorite pastime like football ;) ?

[jso1985]

Five, and lastly, please explain to me what Che was doing in Angola and all these other places he was in. Explain to me what he was doing in these nations and tell me why he always had a gun with him? There is a great industry of myth around this guy, the brutal realities are he was a henchman for Castro, until he became a liability, and then he was rubbed out by the great leader, who then turned around and told the world how wonderful Che is. Most of the world seems to want to buy it, but as Mr Llosa has put it, Che was just the poster child for a great PR campaign.



He wasn't surely trying to make some friends or starting his own soccer team!
let's be honest if a foreign guy comes to your country and start shooting your army, how in the world is he a good guy?
From a TV documenatary I saw a few years ago, Castro apparently wanted to get rid of Che as he was starting to be way too popular in Cuba so he contacted the communist party in Bolivia and fooled Guevara making him believe that a revolution was just about to start here, the truth is that the president in 1967, Rene Barrientos, was hugely popular. so in fact Che had very little chance of succeding

[Mark in Oshawa]

In other words JSO, he was set up. Che was nothing but trouble for everyone, including Castro, but the second he was dead, the myth making began by Castro.

Your points you added are very well taken.

Everyone is equal in Cuba, all poor, EXCEPT the big shots around Castro. Nepotism? Cronyism? I thought everyone was equal and wonderful in Cuba?

The criticsm that other nations go overseas to mess with internal affairs of others so why not Cuba only holds water if most of Cuba wasn't so poor, and that going to mess with other nations is a good thing. Most of the time, it is not. Cuba has no business telling anyone else how to live.

Boy, I love that claim "we live longer than most of the third world!" I guess the poltical prisoners and non-persons are not entitled to live that longer life with any sort of quality.....

[jso1985]

aye! fotgor about everyone around Castro that doesn't need to enter the statistics.

Isn't Castro featured every year in the Forbes magazine as one of the richest men in the world?

Viva the equal Cuba!

[race aficionado]

aye! fotgor about everyone around Castro that doesn't need to enter the statistics.

Isn't Castro featured every year in the Forbes magazine as one of the richest men in the world?

Viva the equal Cuba!

sorry JSO.

Couldn't find him in the list.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/Residence_3.html

[tinchote]

sorry JSO.

Couldn't find him in the list.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/Residence_3.html

You didn't try too hard ;)


Forbes, 4/5/2006 (http://www.forbes.com/2006/05/04/rich-kings-dictators_cz_lk_0504royals.html)

Also mentioned here, for instance:

Fidel Castro net worth rises, according to 'Forbes' (http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-05-04-castro_x.htm)

Fidel Castro Makes Forbes Rich List (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/5/155118.shtml)



And, Race, you made no mention of the case of Hilda Molina: what do you think of it?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh yes, Castro, the defender of the little guy...as he counts his money.

Just remember, the President of the US only gets paid about 260000 a year, and he has to pay his income tax out of that. Rich people may become president, but they have to spend money to get the job. In Castro's world, you just take the country, and then take it's wealth. Isn't that called theft?

[race aficionado]

You didn't try too hard ;)


Forbes, 4/5/2006 (http://www.forbes.com/2006/05/04/rich-kings-dictators_cz_lk_0504royals.html)

Also mentioned here, for instance:

Fidel Castro net worth rises, according to 'Forbes' (http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-05-04-castro_x.htm)

Fidel Castro Makes Forbes Rich List (http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/5/5/155118.shtml)



And, Race, you made no mention of the case of Hilda Molina: what do you think of it?

thanks for the links. I originally looked under country: Cuba and he was not there.

As for Hilda Molina, I'm sorry Tin but I haven't read it yet.

I will.


race
:s mokin:

[race aficionado]

Tin.
I went to the forbes web page you gave me and I did find this:
By the way, It was fun going to that web page because if you go the video news pieces, the forbes animation video transitions were designed by me. But any-who, back to the topic.


Fidel Castro
President/Cuba
$900 million
Age: 79
*(£484.1M, 40.4B rupees, CA$997.2M, AU$1,167.4M, 706.5M euros)

Comandante since 1959. We estimate his fortune based on his economic power over a web of state-owned companies including El Palacio de Convenciones, a convention center near Havana; Cimex, retail conglomerate; and Medicuba, which sells vaccines and other pharmaceuticals produced in Cuba. Former Cuban officials living in U.S. assert that he has long skimmed profits. Castro insists his net worth is zero.
_

So they say he's rich and Castro says his net is worth zero.
So who do we believe? Those who scream the loudest?

I'm sorry but even if Forbes and some former cuban officials living in the US say so, does not make it true.

:s mokin:

[tinchote]

I'm sorry but even if Forbes and some former cuban officials living in the US say so, does not make it true.

:s mokin:

Of course. But then what would be the exact reason not to believe them, and to believe Castro?

[race aficionado]

Of course. But then what would be the exact reason not to believe them, and to believe Castro?
I agree, and I can also flip it around. What is the reason not to believe Castro and believe them?

The US government doesn't even know how much I own - darn, come to think of it I'm not sure either - not much by the way - but the fact is that those are serious allegations and we really don't have a way to prove it.

Hopefully, in my idealistic naive way, I would hope that Castro is honest and that he is not stashing the money as he is accused of and until they show me his secret bank accounts, I aint going to believe the money grubbing hype.

Is he a saint? I'm sure I aint and am also sure that Castro is not one of those either.

Hopefully history will give us many answers once time goes by and yes, when Castro finally buys that farm in the sky with all the money he is supposedly stashing.

Big farm that is . . . .


:s mokin:

[Eki]

let's be honest if a foreign guy comes to your country and start shooting your army, how in the world is he a good guy?

I don't know, but Americans in Iraq seem to think they are good guys.

[Eki]

Of course. But then what would be the exact reason not to believe them, and to believe Castro?
There isn't a reason to believe either.

[tinchote]

There isn't a reason to believe either.

I don't see it as a balanced act. Between a disident and a dictator, I tend to believe the dissident. History shows that dictators have a tendency not to be very altruistic.

[Eki]

I don't see it as a balanced act. Between a disident and a dictator, I tend to believe the dissident. History shows that dictators have a tendency not to be very altruistic.
Neither are dissidents necessarily very altruistic. Let me introduce you Ahmed Chalabi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalabi


hmed Abdel Hadi Chalabi1 (Arabic: أحمد الجلبي 'Ahmad al-Jalab&#299 ;) (born October 30, 1944) was interim oil minister in Iraq[1] in April-May 2005 and December-January 2006 and deputy prime minister from May 2005 until May 2006. Chalabi failed to win a seat in parliament in the December 2005 elections, and when the new Iraqi cabinet was announced in May 2006, he was not awarded a post. Once dubbed the "George Washington of Iraq" by American neoconservatives, he has fallen out of favor and is currently under investigation by several U.S. government sources. He is also wanted for embezzling nearly $300 million through a bank he created in Jordan.

Chalabi was also part of a three-man executive council for the umbrella Iraqi opposition group, the Iraqi National Congress (INC), created in 1992 for the purpose of fomenting the overthrow of Iraqi president Saddam Hussein. Although the INC received major funding and assistance from the United States, it never had any influence or any following to speak of in Iraq after the 2003 invasion. The INC's influence gradually waned until the December 2005 elections, in which it failed to win a single seat in Parliament.

Chalabi is a controversial figure for many reasons. In the lead-up to the 2003 invasion of Iraq, under his guidance the INC provided a major portion of the information on which U.S. Intelligence based its condemnation of Saddam Hussein, including reports of weapons of mass destruction and alleged ties to al-Qaeda. Nearly all, if not all, of this information has turned out to be false. That, combined with the fact that Chalabi subsequently boasted about the impact that their falsifications had in an interview with the British Sunday Telegraph, led to a falling out between him and the United States.

Initially, Chalabi enjoyed close political and business relationships with some members of the U.S. government, including some prominent neoconservatives within the Pentagon. Chalabi is said to have had political contacts within the Project for the New American Century, most notably with Paul Wolfowitz, a student of nuclear strategist Albert Wohlstetter and Richard Perle who was introduced to Chalabi by Wohlstetter in 1985. He also enjoyed considerable support among politicians and political pundits in the United States, most notably Jim Hoagland of The Washington Post, who held him up as a notable force for democracy in Iraq. Chalabi's opponents, on the other hand see him as a charlatan of questionable allegiance, out of touch with Iraq and with no effective power base there. [2].

[Daniel]

You can pull an example of anything out and attempt to use it to prove your point Eki. But you'd still be wrong.....

[Drew]

And we have the problem of knowing who to believe

TBH, I'd be surprised if Fidel hadn't taken any money for himself, but it's probably quite hard to spend. What kind of car does he (get) drive(n) around in, I wonder?

[tinchote]

And we have the problem of knowing who to believe

TBH, I'd be surprised if Fidel hadn't taken any money for himself, but it's probably quite hard to spend. What kind of car does he (get) drive(n) around in, I wonder?

As far as I know, he is driven in a nice Mercedes. I read that a couple days ago. Maybe it was mentioned in the Forbes article.

[Drew]

As far as I know, he is driven in a nice Mercedes. I read that a couple days ago. Maybe it was mentioned in the Forbes article.

I read a while ago he had a Land Rover :s

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidel_castro#Wealth

I see now where the difference is. Forbes took the money from the net worth of all state owned companies and assumed this as Castro's wealth.

However, I'm sure he has a bit of money somewhere.

[tinchote]

I see now where the difference is. Forbes took the money from the net worth of all state owned companies and assumed this as Castro's wealth.



Not really, it was a little more subtle. They considered all those companies, their revenues, and the possible amount he might have taken from the profits. It's a subjective measure, and they say so. It's not that Castro will publish his statement of income every year.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't see it as a balanced act. Between a disident and a dictator, I tend to believe the dissident. History shows that dictators have a tendency not to be very altruistic.

Oh come on Tin, you know Eki couldn't accept that. He LIKES dictators. Why he spent 4 pages on another thread refusing to condemn Saddam Hussein.

Castro has control over everything that happens in Cuba. Since he has the control, you have to consider it his money. Lets face the reality, if he wants something, he will take it. There is no law, just Castro's law.

Drop the fiction that Castro is some sort of hero of the poor and oppressed. The man lives in a far finer style than 99% of his countrymen and only a few are allowed to live at a level anywhere close to him. Castro is not some alturistic fellow, he has political prisoners, he has advocated every form of censorship and control over his own people, and in the case of Hilda Molina, someone who was in the "elite" turned her into a pariah and wont even let her leave the country for humantarian reasons.

No, I tend to believe the dissidents. History is on their side, for as Tin says, dissidents of dictators are right more often than not.

Eki, you can put Chalabi up there, but that would therefore mean you think Saddam was a swell guy. You should open a PR firm for thugs.....

[Eki]

Eki, you can put Chalabi up there, but that would therefore mean you think Saddam was a swell guy. You should open a PR firm for thugs.....
If someone is a thug doesn't mean his opponent can't be a thug as well. Your way of thinking is like thinking if the head of some Mafia family is a bad guy, the head of a competing Mafia family has to be a good guy. That's typical polarized Bush-like "with us or against us" type of logic.

[jso1985]

I don't know, but Americans in Iraq seem to think they are good guys.

why you have to twist everyhting into anti-american chat?

I never mentioned the Iraq war or who's the good guy there

[Mark in Oshawa]

JSO, it is always Dubya's fault in Eki's world....