Modern WRCars a bit boring to watch

[RallyCat909]

I understand that AWD in a rallycar is without a doubt indispensible in many ways, but it makes for slightly boring viewing, paticularly to TV viewing. When I look at old videos of rallying and the Stratos, the rwd Escorts, the Opel Asconas, the Porsches, BMWs, etc., it makes for big smiles both for the spectators and the TV viewers.

AWD IMHO along with sequential gearboxes, has made the it antiseptic and belies the entertainment value of the sport. It is after all something of a circus designed to attract crowds with vehicular acrobatics and exploitative car control. You watch a Loeb or a Gronholm on a fast tarmac stage like Catalunya and appreciate what is going on in the car and the necessary input to make the fastest line through the course. But sheesh, wouldn't you rather see massive slides? Before the current drift craze, if you wanted to see this stuff, you watched rallying. But today its like sedanlike F1 cars on the course. Bleh.

The point Im getting too is that I wish that the FIA in all its connection with and insight into what makes racing a pleasing thing to watch would institute a class for RWD machinery again. In one move the possibility of BMW, Porsche, perhaps even Mercedes, hell, even a Mustang or new Camaro could be a reality on modern WRC stages. AWD has made its point, whats wrong with bringing smiles to all involved alongside the engineering techno wizardry?

[pantealex]

Do you really think that B-group was boring to watch (quattro,delta s4, 205 t16, rs200)
I don`t think so!
P-WRC cars (N-group mitsus and subarus) are boring to watch.

[Woodeye]

There's a "sport" called drifting also you know if you are interested to see massive slides.

The main goal of rallying is to drive fast, not to slide as much as possible.

[ShiftingGears]

There's a "sport" called drifting also you know if you are interested to see massive slides.

The main goal of rallying is to drive fast, not to slide as much as possible.

He's arguing that modern WRC cars aren't as spectacular to watch when they're being driven as fast as possible, as opposed to past rally cars. I don't think you'd find many rally fans being excited by drifting purely for the sake of it.

[Donney]

I understand and support his point. Of course drifting is stupid (in the sense that they drift for the sake of it) and I I'm perfectly happy without it. But the beauty of sliding to trick the diffs and go fast round corners has been almost lost and it is something some people miss, I know I do and I reckon many people do.

I understand things change and the sport evolves, and we will never see Asconas, Stratos and the likes. But it was much more beautiful.

I think sequential gear boxes should be banned together with the active diffs.

And yes, other than the noise and the high speeds Group B cars were not that exciting to watch except in New Zealand and Findland where they would find smooth gravel and wide roads to slide as much as they needed.

[Priorat]

Well, I dont agree. It all depends on what place you pick up to watch them. Of course, a tarmac spectartor area is a boring place.
What I agree is that they are a bit boring to listen.

[Woodeye]

Luckily we are moving away from the WRC -cars towards S2000. Those are really exciting. Imagine 'em get it going in Turkey. Yippee. :rolleyes:

[Wim_Impreza]

If you want spectacular driving, go to the Historic rallies or the European Rallycross Championship. :)

[cali]

Do you really think that B-group was boring to watch (quattro,delta s4, 205 t16, rs200)
I don`t think so!
P-WRC cars (N-group mitsus and subarus) are boring to watch.
If driven in anger and hard, PWRC cars are really exciting to watch. I actually like to watch GR N cars.

[HaCo]

If driven in anger and hard, PWRC cars are really exciting to watch. I actually like to watch GR N cars.

Exactly, even on tarmac. I u need do go hard and are attacking like hell, you are spectacular. Look at travaghlia on Madeira, lots of sideways action!!!

[RS]

I think this 'problem' is getting worse with the newer cars too, Focus being the biggest culprit which sounds boring, looks boring and handles boring too. Pity it's so fast.

[shurik]

If driven in anger and hard, PWRC cars are really exciting to watch. I actually like to watch GR N cars.
Problem is that it's far more expesive to drive with anger, gotta have apropriate budget to drive hard :(

[Corny]

Next year's tyre will help with the sliding maybe..

[SubaruNorway]

The ban of active rear and front diff actualy made the cars more stabel the before according to a comparison on one of the ITRC programs

[Mickey T]

i think the positioning of modern spectator points - almost exclusively on square or hairpin bends - also has a negative impact on perceptions of entertainment. people get plonked down in places were cars are at their least spectacular. it doesn't help.

rallying should always reflect road car techology, and that includes all-wheel drive. i'd like to see some sort of minimisation of torque to the front diff: say 30 percent. that'd get 'em misbehaving again.

[A.F.F.]

Luckily we are moving away from the WRC -cars towards S2000. Those are really exciting. Imagine 'em get it going in Turkey. Yippee. :rolleyes:

I assume you have access to watch Urheilukanava ? If you do, please check to motorsport special aired every week. You can see lot's footage from different European national rallyes. Great footage from S2000 machinery too.

Doesn't look boring to me at all... :)

[DonJippo]

I assume you have access to watch Urheilukanava ? If you do, please check to motorsport special aired every week. You can see lot's footage from different European national rallyes. Great footage from S2000 machinery too. Doesn't look boring to me at all... :)

Does not look different than the WRC either..the physics and fundamentals for fast driving are the same with 4WD cars regardless what class or group they represent.

[RS]

I assume you have access to watch Urheilukanava ? If you do, please check to motorsport special aired every week. You can see lot's footage from different European national rallyes. Great footage from S2000 machinery too.

Doesn't look boring to me at all... :)

Young Alen was quite spectacular on Rally Russia.

[A.F.F.]

Does not look different than the WRC either..the physics and fundamentals for fast driving are the same with 4WD cars regardless what class or group they represent.

The point was that S2000 can be more than boring. You ought to know that with your china connections and all :p :

[COD]

The WRC-cars of today ARE boring to watch. But more than to do with AWD, it has to do with still allowing active cenral diffs and more than that aerodynamics. The wings are too big and allow too much downforce so that cars normally don't slide. Also the big suspension travel gives more grip and more speed but less spectacular action. Next years tyre will help a bit, but wings should be reduced dramatically also.

[Priorat]

The WRC-cars of today ARE boring to watch. But more than to do with AWD, it has to do with still allowing active cenral diffs and more than that aerodynamics. The wings are too big and allow too much downforce so that cars normally don't slide.

Well, clearly you don't remember Gr B wings.

[Finni]

Well, clearly you don't remember Gr B wings.

Right notion. Those little cute wrc-wings don't have much effect for sliding.

When I was in Neste rally I was again utterly impressed by majestetical appearances of wrc-cars. If there was only S2000 cars I wasn't there. Actually in my place (wrc-drivers came thorugh a blind crest and flied 15-25 metres and some of them landed in sideways) rallying was as spectacular as ever. For instance when Hirvonen landed his jump - still being in sideways - his car got such a grip that its rear shortly went from side to side. There was feeling of power, grip and suddennes. I was left to wonder how those artists of crazyness were able to stay opn the road that 35 km of stage - not to mention of whole rally or even whole championship! I just can't experience anything like that with group N or S200 cars. It was one of the most specatucal moment in rallying for me.

I also like to watch from tv how wrc-cars goes on gravel. Only tarmac rallying is boring to watch. There was more sliding in the past but at the same time all situations looked happening like slowed down compared to current wrc-cars..

[COD]

Well, clearly you don't remember Gr B wings.

I do. But aerodynamics have developed a lot in 20+ years. OK, the wings then were big, but with current windtunnels the effect of current wings, skirts and bumper designs are far greater than back then.

[janneppi]

I wonder how much does current engines have to blame?
Wasn't part of group-B's show due to the need to keep engine rews in the right area without having to downshift as much?

If modern cars have lot's of torque from low rews up to red line and gear changes are fast without the need to take hands of the steering wheel what's the point of big slides that just take their toll on tyres and other components if you achieve the same, if not better time using a more controlled line?

[cut the b.s.]

I do. But aerodynamics have developed a lot in 20+ years. OK, the wings then were big, but with current windtunnels the effect of current wings, skirts and bumper designs are far greater than back then.


On faster sections yes, aerodynamics are a big factor, however most species are at junctions(and thus judge the spectacle from these points) and at the speeds they are doing around them I doubt that they come in to play very much at all, faster flowing corners are where they make the difference

[cali]

Problem is that it's far more expesive to drive with anger, gotta have apropriate budget to drive hard :(
J.Novikov certainly has a big budget, so no worries at all ;) He's good to watch :)

[shurik]

J.Novikov certainly has a big budget, so no worries at all ;) He's good to watch :)
I'm more concern about myself (though VFTS can't look boring unless it's it's in the ditch upside down )))), than Novikov, he's got plenty men to take care of him, so he should drive spectacular :D

[Woodeye]

I assume you have access to watch Urheilukanava ? If you do, please check to motorsport special aired every week. You can see lot's footage from different European national rallyes. Great footage from S2000 machinery too.

Doesn't look boring to me at all... :)

Infact I do have. S2000 have never impressed me and never will. I was in Urria in a place where there was few fast corners and after seeing the WRC -cars flying over, the S2000 Punto was nothing. Not to mention the S2000 207.

[AndyRAC]

While they may be boring, they're also incredibly quiet, in fact they sound like strangled farts. C'mon, let them be noisier, and the anti-lag systems are quiet as well now. That's part of what WRC was, loud cars going sideways, big smiles,...!!

[WRCfan]

Group N is boring, they sledge around corners with not enough RPM being sent through the wheels to barely wheelspin. Lots of torque and wheelspin what makes WRC cars the most exciting cars on the stages today.

I agree, bring back the noise, backfiring, agressive appearance the cars have. those Xsara WRC cars look very "car" like, they dont have a menacing look about them like others do.....

1993 Subaru Impreza WRX is an example of a real rally car, the noise, backfiring, threatening looks. It had it all. Group B crapped on everything lets face it but the modern cars are so technically advanced if u experience a problem your car is crippled by a computer, in the old days after a crash they were driven out of stages as long as the pistons would still go up and down! Now a little niggle in something sends ur car to a halt....

[A.F.F.]

Infact I do have. S2000 have never impressed me and never will. I was in Urria in a place where there was few fast corners and after seeing the WRC -cars flying over, the S2000 Punto was nothing. Not to mention the S2000 207.


Fair enough.

Can't see that a bad thing though. More room for me at the stages in the future :)

[Brother John]

Wait till 2012! S2000 and S2000+ (turbo) :D ;) :s mokin:

[Josti]

Can't see that a bad thing though. More room for me at the stages in the future :)

Isn't that what where all going for :p :

[Finni]

I do. But aerodynamics have developed a lot in 20+ years. OK, the wings then were big, but with current windtunnels the effect of current wings, skirts and bumper designs are far greater than back then.

Are you seriously trying to say that for instance Xsara's tiny, almost non-existing, wing could produce same downforce as those huge group B wings from the past???

Just little time ago I read Hannu Mikkola's comment about his old Ouninpohja record. Mikkola said that going faster in the corners gave even better grip than careful driving - because of huge downforce coming from rear-wing. I don't know is he exaggerating but that is far from experiences of current drivers as anything.

[COD]

Are you seriously trying to say that for instance Xsara's tiny, almost non-existing, wing could produce same downforce as those huge group B wings from the past???

Just little time ago I read Hannu Mikkola's comment about his old Ouninpohja record. Mikkola said that going faster in the corners gave even better grip than careful driving - because of huge downforce coming from rear-wing. I don't know is he exaggerating but that is far from experiences of current drivers as anything.

Xsara not sure about, but in C4 the wings and their angle have a great impact. The probably have at least the same effect as the gr.B wing described by Mikkola, if not more.

I find it so funny and ridicolous that people here are saying things like they will stop watching if S2000 replaces WRC because it is so boring then.

Same things were said after gr.B was banned and replaced with gr.A but with
all the top driver behind the wheel it is bound to be as exciting as now if the change is made (mero so if you ask me.). Do we need another casualty like Beef before anything changes????

[RallyCat909]

I hope that everyone understand that I love rallying very very much and I mean to offend no ones passions on this board. Often I am quite jealous of the post on the baord when people are talking about "Yeah, that spectator point was better than last year, or He lifted a bit more than so-and-so there". Being an american rally fan is a lonely matter. Too many people think its what happened at hte Xgames over here, and you cant really blame them. I think that many people here are getting into rallying by the hour, but they have no idea as to what the concept is. THey have so much NASCAR shoved down their throats that other forms of racing seem alien.

Anyway, back on topic. Hearing the backfire of an Audi quattro a quarter mile away at the Cherokee Trails Rally in 2001 and as a small child the 45% angles of opposite lock of a Lancia Stratos at a rally on the east coast here is something that was ingrained into my soul. Those moments galvanized my passions in way that surface at the oddest moments for me. Seeing the faces of young kids and new fans at rallies here makes my heart smile. I think that rallying in the US is a sleeping giant, if only someone knew the way to waken it. RWD had alot to do with that. The noise seems long ago. When at a rally and you see a massive slide, isnt the the crowd giddy with delight? Its like everyone is 10 years old again.

Please forgive my cheesy, sentimental remarks. Im usually a lurker on these boards, mostly because Im afraid of the laughter. :)

[pino]

Infact I do have. S2000 have never impressed me and never will. I was in Urria in a place where there was few fast corners and after seeing the WRC -cars flying over, the S2000 Punto was nothing. Not to mention the S2000 207.

You've probably had too many beers :p : ;) I've enjoyed that Punto at each pass until a mechanic failure stopped Alen :(

[Tomi]

You've probably had too many beers :p : ;) I've enjoyed that Punto at each pass until a mechanic failure stopped Alen :(

Good you dont claim it was more spectacular than the WRC cars, in my opinion the Punto was much too hyped, the driver was ok.

[pino]

Good you dont claim it was more spectacular than the WRC cars, in my opinion the Punto was much too hyped, the driver was ok.

You defenitely had too many beers, so your opinion doesn't count :p :

[Tomi]

Same things were said after gr.B was banned and replaced with gr.A

Dont you think it was boaring to watch the group A after the B group, seriously?

[Tomi]

You defenitely had too many beers, so your opinion doesn't count :p :

No beers, just a realistic opinion, the same hype that was about S1600 is now about S2000, and what was the S1600 at the end? The biggest joke in Rallye history.

[A.F.F.]

I hope that everyone understand that I love rallying very very much and I mean to offend no ones passions on this board. Often I am quite jealous of the post on the baord when people are talking about "Yeah, that spectator point was better than last year, or He lifted a bit more than so-and-so there". Being an american rally fan is a lonely matter. Too many people think its what happened at hte Xgames over here, and you cant really blame them. I think that many people here are getting into rallying by the hour, but they have no idea as to what the concept is. THey have so much NASCAR shoved down their throats that other forms of racing seem alien.

Anyway, back on topic. Hearing the backfire of an Audi quattro a quarter mile away at the Cherokee Trails Rally in 2001 and as a small child the 45% angles of opposite lock of a Lancia Stratos at a rally on the east coast here is something that was ingrained into my soul. Those moments galvanized my passions in way that surface at the oddest moments for me. Seeing the faces of young kids and new fans at rallies here makes my heart smile. I think that rallying in the US is a sleeping giant, if only someone knew the way to waken it. RWD had alot to do with that. The noise seems long ago. When at a rally and you see a massive slide, isnt the the crowd giddy with delight? Its like everyone is 10 years old again.

Please forgive my cheesy, sentimental remarks. Im usually a lurker on these boards, mostly because Im afraid of the laughter. :)


No need to lurk. One of the best posts in the whole thread :up:

[A.F.F.]

Dont you think it was boaring to watch the group A after the B group, seriously?

I'm speaking for COD but the only reason I found it boring was the lack of manufacturers. Lancia came after Lancia, couple of Sierras and one 316 plus a Mazda 323. But that didn't last for too long.

And to be honest, group A cars had a giant leaps in development. They weren't lame after a short period of time.

I have no reason to believe that wouldn't happen when the next change come. This time it'll bring many manus with it.

[DonJippo]

This time it'll bring many manus with it.

Same way like with S1600 but where are all manufactures now? Same will happen with S2000 once the winning formula has been found by few manu's the rest will fade away...

[Tomi]

I'm speaking for COD but the only reason I found it boring was the lack of manufacturers. Lancia came after Lancia, couple of Sierras and one 316 plus a Mazda 323. But that didn't last for too long.

And to be honest, group A cars had a giant leaps in development. They weren't lame after a short period of time.

I have no reason to believe that wouldn't happen when the next change come. This time it'll bring many manus with it.

Wonder why so many people thinks group N is boaring, after all current group N car preforms much better than Group A car Mäkinen took his first championships with.

[cut the b.s.]

Wonder why so many people thinks group N is boaring, after all current group N car preforms much better than Group A car Mäkinen took his first championships with.


Its all in the sound, or lack of, time to introduce minimum noise levels at rallys :-)

[COD]

Dont you think it was boaring to watch the group A after the B group, seriously?

My point was that after a short period of adjusting, it doesn't matter that much. I was there for 1000 Lakes in 1987 and can not forget the sight of those RWD Sierra Turbos... :up And it only got better the following year when Toyota and others started coming. So why would a move to S2000 be any different?

A spectator can not so well see the difference as long as he doesn't have faster cars to compare. After all, it not so much about absolute speed, but the way it looks. And I think the S2000 cars with all the top drivers in them would look fantastic.

[Donney]

I hope that everyone understand that I love rallying very very much and I mean to offend no ones passions on this board. Often I am quite jealous of the post on the baord when people are talking about "Yeah, that spectator point was better than last year, or He lifted a bit more than so-and-so there". Being an american rally fan is a lonely matter. Too many people think its what happened at hte Xgames over here, and you cant really blame them. I think that many people here are getting into rallying by the hour, but they have no idea as to what the concept is. THey have so much NASCAR shoved down their throats that other forms of racing seem alien.

Anyway, back on topic. Hearing the backfire of an Audi quattro a quarter mile away at the Cherokee Trails Rally in 2001 and as a small child the 45% angles of opposite lock of a Lancia Stratos at a rally on the east coast here is something that was ingrained into my soul. Those moments galvanized my passions in way that surface at the oddest moments for me. Seeing the faces of young kids and new fans at rallies here makes my heart smile. I think that rallying in the US is a sleeping giant, if only someone knew the way to waken it. RWD had alot to do with that. The noise seems long ago. When at a rally and you see a massive slide, isnt the the crowd giddy with delight? Its like everyone is 10 years old again.

Please forgive my cheesy, sentimental remarks. Im usually a lurker on these boards, mostly because Im afraid of the laughter. :)

Great post indeed, and please join us more often, we are just giving our personal opinions and most likely we are all wrong :p

[DonJippo]

A spectator can not so well see the difference as long as he doesn't have faster cars to compare. After all, it not so much about absolute speed, but the way it looks. And I think the S2000 cars with all the top drivers in them would look fantastic.

Based on what I witnessed in NORF this year S2000 does not bring any exceptional spectacle to see. It uses the most modern technology with certain limitations and that makes it as good or boring to watch as any other 4WD car on the stages.

[COD]

Based on what I witnessed in NORF this year S2000 does not bring any exceptional spectacle to see. It uses the most modern technology with certain limitations and that makes it as good or boring to watch as any other 4WD car on the stages.

I don't agree.

At least you can hear them on the forests, unlike all the other 4WD machines

[A.F.F.]

Folks saw what, one or two S2000 at this year's NORF :rolleyes:

That's hardly a base of any base.

[Josti]

My point was that after a short period of adjusting, it doesn't matter that much. I was there for 1000 Lakes in 1987 and can not forget the sight of those RWD Sierra Turbos... :up And it only got better the following year when Toyota and others started coming. So why would a move to S2000 be any different?

A spectator can not so well see the difference as long as he doesn't have faster cars to compare. After all, it not so much about absolute speed, but the way it looks. And I think the S2000 cars with all the top drivers in them would look fantastic.


Well, it's S2000. It ain't no Group A. To me, it's not so much about the looks, but more the entertaining value of the cars. Not all Group A cars looked that nice, let alone the previous Group B's.

I just hope for the sake of Rallying, FIA makes a good decision for switching to S2000, otherwise I won't be much surprised. But, w'll see how S2000 looks like in 4 or 5 years.

[COD]

Well, it's S2000. It ain't no Group A. To me, it's not so much about the looks, but more the entertaining value of the cars. Not all Group A cars looked that nice, let alone the previous Group B's.

.


I was a bit unclear. I didn't meen the looks of the cars, but how the performance of the car and driver package is for the spectator in the forest and on TV. And I'm pretty sure it would be at least as entertaining with S2000 as it is now, and even more so because of the nice sounds they make.

[SubaruNorway]

No way S2000 is as entertaining as wrc, they can't even do tarmac hairpins without boging out.

[Daniel]

Based on what I witnessed in NORF this year S2000 does not bring any exceptional spectacle to see. It uses the most modern technology with certain limitations and that makes it as good or boring to watch as any other 4WD car on the stages.
Nice sound. That's about it though.

[RS]

Same way like with S1600 but where are all manufactures now? Same will happen with S2000 once the winning formula has been found by few manu's the rest will fade away...

Also like WRCars?

[N.O.T]

Please forgive my cheesy, sentimental remarks. Im usually a lurker on these boards, mostly because Im afraid of the laughter. :)

Don't be...take a look at me for example....everytime i post i make half of finland laugh yet i am still here...

[N.O.T]

Also about the s1600 and the s2000 i think when the costs increase at the level where it isn't worth spending on a car like that they will deflate.....

The s1600 were very nice cars but when the price went sky high and with the same money you could buy a very powerful N4 and you could do both gravel and tarmac and be competitive and also maintaining costs were lower.

If the manufacturers manage to keep s2000 at relatively low costs and be competitive at the same time then i guess they could stay for a while as competitors to the N4 cars....as a replacement to the WRC...they don't stand a chance at their current format.

[Helstar]

No way S2000 is as entertaining as wrc, they can't even do tarmac hairpins without boging out.
Maybe you haven't seen the 'numbers' those cars do here in the CIR ...

Anyway if they switch to S2000 in the future I won't complain. Within some years of development they should reach higher speeds and have some of the 'things' you asked for in this thread - big jumps like WRC cars + maybe sideways even on gravel etc.. The huge noise is already there =D

[COD]

Because of improved aerodynamics and suspensions, the jumps of WRC cars have shortened in Finland. Actually Alen jumped as far as best WRC cars in the most famous jump in Ouninpohja.

The speeds to that jump have come down by 15km/h from 2003. The speedtraps that Finnish magazine Vauhdin Maailma had show that cornering speed have increased. These two combined tell about more downforce.

So it has become more dangerous. Where are all those people who after Wales 2005 were here crying to make this sport safer? They are now all against swiching to slower and safer cars.

[Woodeye]

Folks saw what, one or two S2000 at this year's NORF :rolleyes:

That's hardly a base of any base.

Hmm.. How many S2000 cars you need to make the conclutions? The WRC -cars are mind-blowing experience eveytime you see one in full-speed (if not driven by certain you Brit or some arab Sheik). That's not the case with S2000.

If I would have the choice, I would pick WRC anytime over S2000. Anyway, I don't so that's why I just have to accept the fact that in the future I have to see cars that have the sound and the speed of my Seat with hole in exhaust pipe. I can't wait. :rolleyes:

[Woodeye]

Don't be...take a look at me for example....everytime i post i make half of finland laugh yet i am still here...

It's usually about 6-7 Finns so that's a bit more than half of the Finland... ;)

[Daniel]

Because of improved aerodynamics and suspensions, the jumps of WRC cars have shortened in Finland. Actually Alen jumped as far as best WRC cars in the most famous jump in Ouninpohja.

The speeds to that jump have come down by 15km/h from 2003. The speedtraps that Finnish magazine Vauhdin Maailma had show that cornering speed have increased. These two combined tell about more downforce.

So it has become more dangerous. Where are all those people who after Wales 2005 were here crying to make this sport safer? They are now all against swiching to slower and safer cars.
Well I wasn't one of them. I accept (doesn't mean I like it) that people will from time to time die in the WRC and that even with all of the precautions taken this is a dangerous sport and we've merely been very lucky not to lose more lives in the Group A/WRC era.

[COD]

Well I wasn't one of them. I accept (doesn't mean I like it) that people will from time to time die in the WRC and that even with all of the precautions taken this is a dangerous sport and we've merely been very lucky not to lose more lives in the Group A/WRC era.

Accidents will allways hapen, even serious ones no matter what car you are in. Still, everything should be done to make it as safe as possible. So why not do it in a more controlled matter than in 1986???

[A.F.F.]

Hmm.. How many S2000 cars you need to make the conclutions? The WRC -cars are mind-blowing experience eveytime you see one in full-speed (if not driven by certain you Brit or some arab Sheik). That's not the case with S2000.

If I would have the choice, I would pick WRC anytime over S2000. Anyway, I don't so that's why I just have to accept the fact that in the future I have to see cars that have the sound and the speed of my Seat with hole in exhaust pipe. I can't wait. :rolleyes:

Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one. I rest my case :)

[A.F.F.]

Except that I won't. Surely, when the time comes and S2000 with turbos and stuff are the main game, driven by the tops, it'll be different looking, and sounding than now.

I also like that the table will be even remotely clean and it encourages different manus to join again. Now, there's hardly a rush in WRC.

But this is what you already know. I guess I'm just saying that it still be top rallying :up: :)

[Brother John]

Except that I won't. Surely, when the time comes and S2000 with turbos and stuff are the main game, driven by the tops, it'll be different looking, and sounding than now.

I also like that the table will be even remotely clean and it encourages different manus to join again. Now, there's hardly a rush in WRC.

But this is what you already know. I guess I'm just saying that it still be top rallying :up: :)


Yes!!!!!! eventually! Someone who know that S2000 will become the basic for theWRC Cars ! 2012 maybe! :rolleyes:

[A.F.F.]

I like the odds. Me vs. rest of the known world :D

[Tomi]

Surely, when the time comes and S2000 with turbos and stuff are the main game, driven by the tops, it'll be different looking, and sounding than now. :up: :)

Thats much different from what it is now, upcoming and average drivers in average cars.

[Josti]

Except that I won't. Surely, when the time comes and S2000 with turbos and stuff are the main game, driven by the tops, it'll be different looking, and sounding than now.


Agree, we just have to see how S2000 develops. Just like Group B, just like Group A.

[A.F.F.]

Yes!!!!!! eventually! Someone who know that S2000 will become the basic for theWRC Cars ! 2012 maybe! :rolleyes:

What's the problem ? :confused:

At the meantime, you can watch WRC :)

[Woodeye]

I guess I'm just saying that it still be top rallying :up: :)

Sure it'll be. But only with average machinery. Of course it would be nice if there were 5 more manufacturers in the championship, but still I would be missing proper cars, the WRC -ones.

And btw, opinions are like farts. Own smells always better than others. :p

[MJW]

The performance gap that happened at the end of 1986 when the 205T16, Lancia Delta S4 and Audi Sport Quattro were replaced by Renault 11 Turbo, Ford Sierra XR4x4 and Mazda 323 was really painful to watch, shortly after the BMW M3 Group A car came along and was one of the most spectacular ever, then there was a new generation Mitsubishi Galants, Subaru Legacy (the McRae car) and things looked up again. It's a cycle, sure S2000 wont be as fast or expensive as the current crop of WRC cars but give them a few years and they will be both as fast and probably more expensive.

[A.F.F.]

And btw, opinions are like farts. Own smells always better than others. :p

:up:

And sounds better too :p :

[AndyRAC]

How many manufacturers in the WRC? Ford,Subaru,Citroen; Suzuki about to join,and on the odd Rally Mitsubishi and Skoda. WRCars are just far too expensive to produce and develop, that's why nobody else is interested in joining. I've said before, S2000 is maybe the way forward, it depends on the number of manufacturers interested.
Another point, last month in EVO magazine there was an article on the current sorry state of the WRC, this month the letter of the month is about that article. The reader states that he used to be interested in the WRC because you could by a road going version of many of the cars. Nowadays Subaru are the only manufacturer to offer a 2LTurbo 4WD car. Citroen offer a 1.6l 125BHP 'Loeb special'- who would want to buy that rubbish? Now I know why they don't make them any more because they were expensive but surely you should be able to buy a similar car that you see on the stages, otherwise what is the point in taking part?

[RallyCat909]

The exoctica is rallying is long gone, and thats really too bad.

[jso1985]

mmm define "exotica"...

[RallyCat909]

mmm define "exotica"...



Well, I mean before the rules dictating that manufacturers had to commit to a fll calendar, the occasional Ferarri, BMW, MB, etc on stages. I could be very wrong, but I think if that rule was lifted we might see some interesting entries. (?)

[AndyRAC]

mmm define "exotica"...

Sportscars and the like, Porsche 911, Lancia Stratos, Alpine 110, etc. Even Celica GT4 could be classed as a sportscar. Now all we get are boring 'Family' hatchbacks, which you can't buy as a 2L Turbo 4WD.

[jonkka]

The wings are too big and allow too much downforce so that cars normally don't slide.

But look way much better than without wings. Just compare Ford Focus 1999-2002 to more current versions.

[jonkka]

I find it so funny and ridicolous that people here are saying things like they will stop watching if S2000 replaces WRC because it is so boring then. Same things were said after gr.B was banned and replaced with gr.A

The crucial difference between those two changes is the fact that both GrB and GrA cars had turbo. S2K does not and without turbo the only way to get power is to rev up, which sounds like fingernails on a blackboard. Proper rallycar must not scream like a woman, it must growl like a tiger. Hence, only turbocharged rally car is a rally car.

[jonkka]

Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got one. I rest my case :)

Some got more than one, even... :eek:

[jonkka]

Well, I mean before the rules dictating that manufacturers had to commit to a fll calendar, the occasional Ferarri, BMW, MB, etc on stages. I could be very wrong, but I think if that rule was lifted we might see some interesting entries. (?)

Requirement to take part in the full championship (manufacturers) or most of it (manufacturer teams) is a good thing. Why? Because otherwise manufacturers would pick only the events that suit them (like sportscar manufacturers competed only in a few tarmac events or like Nissan/Toyota did only African marathons etc). That would lead to depleted entry lists on events that are not market for the given manufacturer (Citroen isn't sold in many of the countries that WRC visits these days, do you think they'd be there unless they had to?).

I know it is financial burden but I don't like the alternative. Half of the fun is seeing cars doing rally but the other half comes from championship fight and with just a programme of few rallies, team has no interest in championship. Be in with both feet or be out, don't be in with just one feet every now and then.

[Erki]

The crucial difference between those two changes is the fact that both GrB and GrA cars had turbo. S2K does not and without turbo the only way to get power is to rev up, which sounds like fingernails on a blackboard. Proper rallycar must not scream like a woman, it must growl like a tiger. Hence, only turbocharged rally car is a rally car.

The Australian Fiesta S2000 sounds very good though. Turbo is not necessary for a car to sound good. What about NASCAR stock cars, Corvette C6.R - those don't have turbo and they don't scream either. :)

[A.F.F.]

The crucial difference between those two changes is the fact that both GrB and GrA cars had turbo. S2K does not and without turbo the only way to get power is to rev up, which sounds like fingernails on a blackboard. Proper rallycar must not scream like a woman, it must growl like a tiger. Hence, only turbocharged rally car is a rally car.

Surely you must know that S2000 will come with turbo when the change is at hand.

[AndyRAC]

The crucial difference between those two changes is the fact that both GrB and GrA cars had turbo. S2K does not and without turbo the only way to get power is to rev up, which sounds like fingernails on a blackboard. Proper rallycar must not scream like a woman, it must growl like a tiger. Hence, only turbocharged rally car is a rally car.

I'm not sure I agree with you about the turbo, did the Stratos, Escort Mki&ii, 131 Abarth have turbos. Personally I think there should be both, turbo and N/A. The current turbo cars are too quiet. Anyway what's wrong with a woman screaming........?

[jonkka]

I'm not sure I agree with you about the turbo, did the Stratos, Escort Mki&ii, 131 Abarth have turbos. Personally I think there should be both, turbo and N/A. The current turbo cars are too quiet. Anyway what's wrong with a woman screaming........?

You have a point, old cars did have atmospheric engines and reached their maximum power at around 8000 rpm. Yet, they did not scream but rather had a throaty sound. Nowadays, even turbocharged WRCars seem to scream, despite the fact that their top power is around 6000 rpm (whereas likes of 306 Maxi reached almost 9000 rpm for top power).

As to screaming, it's a sign of unpleasant things.

[Daniel]

Surely you must know that S2000 will come with turbo when the change is at hand.
Then it becomes a WRC? :p

[DonJippo]

Surely you must know that S2000 will come with turbo when the change is at hand.

Aah but that is not a S2000 anymore.

[Daniel]

Aah but that is not a S2000 anymore.
A WRC? :D

[COD]

You have a point, old cars did have atmospheric engines and reached their maximum power at around 8000 rpm. Yet, they did not scream but rather had a throaty sound. Nowadays, even turbocharged WRCars seem to scream, despite the fact that their top power is around 6000 rpm (whereas likes of 306 Maxi reached almost 9000 rpm for top power).

As to screaming, it's a sign of unpleasant things.

The S2000 cars are restricted to 8500, so it is not that much difference to the "good old" machines.

The turbo is the one thing that makes the cars so quiet. At least some of the cars have straight exhaustpipes after the turbo. The other thing is that because of the air restrictor,the cars drive on really low RPM and more on torque than max HP.

And back to the wings. I'm not that much of a Tuning man that I would say the cars look better with these current wings. If it is ridicoulous wings and bumpers and skirts you are looking for, I would suggest tuning cars shows and magazines

[AndyRAC]

If the wings, bumpers and skirts are on the road car, fine. If not then they shouldn't be allowed. Either it's a championship based on production cars or it isn't.

[Daniel]

It's not a production championship though!!!!!! That's group N. WRC is supposed to be based loosely on production cars to keep the production costs down for manufacturers wanting to come into the WRC

[AndyRAC]

It's not a production championship though!!!!!! That's group N. WRC is supposed to be based loosely on production cars to keep the production costs down for manufacturers wanting to come into the WRC

Yeah, I'm aware of that, 'Production Based' . The manufacturers are in it to sell more cars, but Joe Public can't go into his local Ford dealer and get a 4WD 2L Turbo road car - the excuse is they're far too expensive to produce( nobody has told Mitsubishi & Subaru ). None of the Focus road cars look anything like the Rally car. As far as I'm aware the WRC hasn't always been for 'Family Hatchbacks' why not change the regs so other types are allowed in, because in the main the WRCars are boring.

[Daniel]

Yeah, I'm aware of that, 'Production Based' . The manufacturers are in it to sell more cars, but Joe Public can't go into his local Ford dealer and get a 4WD 2L Turbo road car - the excuse is they're far too expensive to produce( nobody has told Mitsubishi & Subaru ). None of the Focus road cars look anything like the Rally car. As far as I'm aware the WRC hasn't always been for 'Family Hatchbacks' why not change the regs so other types are allowed in, because in the main the WRCars are boring.
Not sure if you've seen the latest Focus but it looks strangely a lot like the Focus WRC in a lot of ways :)

[jonkka]

If the wings, bumpers and skirts are on the road car, fine. If not then they shouldn't be allowed. Either it's a championship based on production cars or it isn't.

So you want homologation specials back? Geez... some never learn from the mistakes of the past, likely because such mistakes were done before their time.

EDIT: Let me eloborate that 'cause I might not remember tomorrow... If only production car features would be allowed in a WRCar, manufacturer could easily buy a title by producing a limited run (if 5.000 examples is limited run) car with superior specs á la Lancia Stratos.

And on the other hand, being able to modify relatively modest family saloon (or nowadays a hatchback) into a World Rally Car, it is easy for just about any manufacturer to enter the sport. That principle excludes only likes of Porsche (who don't make hatchbacks) or Ferrari (who doesn't manufacture anything in series of 5.000). Why so few are in at the moment is another question entirely and there is a separate thread for that.

[jonkka]

why not change the regs so other types are allowed in, because in the main the WRCars are boring.

Which of us interprets the rules wrong as I think that you can have any mass-produced car of correct size as a base for a WRCar? What you want in, a Mini Cooper or a Humvee? The only popular car that isn't exactly ideal is a diesel, which in fact is a pity, given their new rise.

[Daniel]

So you want homologation specials back? Geez... some never learn from the mistakes of the past, likely because such mistakes were done before their time.
He wants manufacturers to pay for people to have silly looking roadcars rather than people paying to have their own WRC style bodykit. As you say the mistake has been made before and it should never be repeated again :)

My girlfriend drives a homologation special and I quite like it. But that was from before the days when they got turbo's which were too big for road use :) A modern homologation special would be far too expensive and far too stupid looking for the road.

[Erki]

Not sure if you've seen the latest Focus but it looks strangely a lot like the Focus WRC in a lot of ways :)

Yes, both are ugly pieces of ****. :)

[Daniel]

Very true :)

[cut the b.s.]

The crucial difference between those two changes is the fact that both GrB and GrA cars had turbo. S2K does not and without turbo the only way to get power is to rev up, which sounds like fingernails on a blackboard. Proper rallycar must not scream like a woman, it must growl like a tiger. Hence, only turbocharged rally car is a rally car.


You have not head many rally cars then, many great sounding non turbos, Escorts, Mantas, M3s, and many of the F2 and S1600 have and do sound great

[cut the b.s.]

If the wings, bumpers and skirts are on the road car, fine. If not then they shouldn't be allowed. Either it's a championship based on production cars or it isn't.


You just want car makers to make limited runs of bodykitted specials for grannys to go shopping in like the big bumpered 206

[A.F.F.]

Aah but that is not a S2000 anymore.

Wiseass :D

[BDunnell]

I agree with the original sentiment expressed in this thread. As I keep on saying, the best option as far as I'm concerned is a championship involving a mixture of cars capable of running at the front, including 2wd, 4wd, turbo and non-turbo — both in terms of the spectacle and the cost to entrants. S2000 would seem to offer the potential for this.

[sasamsa]

Group B was ultimate...
The sound, the power, trying to control the beast... Like a roaring lion let loose in a town trying to escape into the wild and the crowd getting crazy and exited and want to see it and get close to it not caring about the danger...
Nowdays rally seems like caged circus monkeys performing for the crowd in circus(superspecials) compared to group b.

Just look at this especially 1:30 - great
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuTc4VIdm-o